Murder Unscripted
The Murder of Robin Benedict - "No Corpus Delicti" (Ep. 1:4)
I heard something very strange today about I never even thought up so a shirt a t-shirt has three holes right it's a it's a head hole and two or four I guess four depending how yeah right so it's called a shirt a singular shirt yeah pants pants have the same amount of holes like it and why are they paint multi plural pants have less holes by one but I can occur what was I trying to say I was trying to say something the other day and I couldn't come up with the plural of it it wasn't like moose me's but it was something similar it's not me's I know that it's definitely not me's all right we should do this podcast I think instead of talking about pants think about it think about it don't get back to me got it it's Tuesday and you're listening to better on script what is up everybody welcome back to murder unscripted I am Ed Heidock and here as always is my co-host my partner in crime Melissa Spivey hey and we are in episode four of our first block and we've been covering cases that ended in a conviction without a victim's body and today we're going to be wrapping up the block the theme with some thoughts that we've had while recording the first three episodes and then Melissa is going to bring us kind of one other really interesting true crime case that that ended in a nobody conviction so before we dive into all of this I want to chat about Bruce Blackwood so that's the case we've been focused on for the past two weeks and now that we've had time to like absorb everything Melissa I want to get your kind of final thoughts on the Bruce Blackwood case because I really tried to cover some of the issues that police had with this particular case which it wasn't so much a who done it but it was kind of like a how do we catch Perez case but you see how even with a suspect in the crosshairs scoring a conviction takes so much work I mean years in this case unfortunately detectives did an awesome job you know with a building a mountain of circumstantial evidence and that helped the prosecutor Melissa Carvajal who we touched on she's incredible she put Perez behind bars in her first bodyless case that she ever prosecuted so and there was it's awesome right and I there was something that we I cannot believe we forgot to mention because there's a quote oh my gosh right so you had pulled you found this disturbing and I agree with you oh yeah yeah so tell us the quote that that we forgot this came from Perez himself so so and this was on the phone call with his daughter when he was kind of bragging like about the murders so he said to his daughter quote it's not about committing the perfect crime it's just about how well you clean it up and and that that stuck with you right like you you've been ever since we talked about covering the Bruce Blackwood case you've been talking about this quote so what is so disturbing about it I think what grossed me out the most and stuck with me is again he's bragging which is gross and he just seems so smug about it like the perfect crime it's about how well you clean it up like I know I can I know I'm gonna win this I know that the detectives and police aren't gonna be smart enough to time me to this and if I remember correctly he did do a decent job of cleaning up it a very good job is really frustrating but honestly like I wish I could write a letter to him and put this in there and be like so tell me about your cleanup job tell me how that went it was just it really shows just a complete lack of remorse and and a lot of times these are some of these guys will feel guilty and that just that gives you some insight into who Perez really is I mean this guy had zero remorse and a lot of them have zero remorse until either either caught or be it comes time for sentencing or an appeal and then all of a sudden they just they're changed and and they now have remorse for these I mean what he did to Bruce Blackwood I mean yeah it seems like a lot of these guys have selective remorse but Perez didn't have any at all right which which shows you yeah what other quote really makes me sick if like especially if you really think about it when he talked about cutting chicken yeah that it was the chopping up Bruce Blackwood it was like cutting a piece of chicken I mean that's what he thought of of this guy right exactly and you hear the people that spoke about that spoke about Bruce if you watched any of the programs on the Blackwood case you'll see you'll see detectives you'll see friends you'll see people talk about Bruce Blackwood in the greatest light possible and to have somebody come in and be like actually he was a chicken to me so that I cut up it's sick and and and this is an interesting kind of a you heard of how frustrated Steve was with the case during last week's when we interviewed Detective Steve Peland if you guys have missed that check that out he made no bones about the fact that this was a challenging case that that bothered him for years and he yeah he had to like suit over tire without it being solved luckily he had a chance to kind of stay involved but the people in this case were were incredible and and we're gonna talk later in this particular episode about grief and and how families deal with things like this in these cases where there's no body but in general if let's say there was a body that doesn't matter we for our episode of cold case files on the Blackwood case we interviewed Tina Namakutis and this is something that I wanted to bring up but it didn't just see I didn't find a good place to talk about it so just a reminder Tina was Bruce's like best friend Tina we filmed this all took place in New York City as you know so when you when you film in New York City you do run the risk it's a bustling busy place and anybody who's ever been there the second you step off the bus or the train or your car I mean you know it's it's this hub of activity it is loud so when you film there it's hard to find sound safe spaces where you're not going to be interrupted by construction noise by traffic by talking or yelling or whatever so we interviewed Tina we talked to her for weeks to get this interview lined up and just assure her that we are going to tell the story the right way and Tina was all all for it so we get to the interview sound guy says yep good to go so everybody gets the all clear and we start her interview and it gets back to the studio when we find out it's completely unusable so her whole interview the whole interview I mean it was this this drone this droning noise there was constra I mean it was it's so difficult we try to find spaces that are safe but it doesn't always work out so unfortunately Tina did this whole interview she cried she she poured her heart out about Bruce and we couldn't use any of it so these are emotional steps for people to participate in in shows about murdered loved ones it's difficult so I had to go back to her and ask the ultimate favor I was like everything you just told us can you do it again because we can't use any of the interview that we shot we relive this tragedy right so now you're pulling that participating in these things are it takes in it's emotional I mean we I talked to these people on the phone and that they'll call me the week before the day before and get cold feet and it really is a you need to nurture the whole thing from start to finish in order to make everyone feel safe and Tina unfortunately we had to get her back in the chair and if if anyone has watched the show she's in a black shirt she's kind of a she's a little flat and this is through no fault of Tina's she had just gone through it a week earlier so yeah it's a it's a another stage of grief you that this crime happens and you deal with it then the trial comes up whenever they catch the guy the trial comes up and all this stuff comes flooding back then it's over and you start the healing process and then the vultures come all the TV shows all the podcasts all the shows all the news stations they want to talk to these people and every time that happens it drags all this stuff back up so that is a an overlooked stage of the grieving process that I've learned just while we're talking about this in a future episode I would love to discuss the people who insert themselves in investigations by them like they seek out the news stations there are definitely people like that you know that would be interesting to do like okay okay it's our two on well and in our next in our next theme we're actually gonna we're gonna be doing an interview with someone close to the case in a different in a little bit different way but we had an experience like that that will will share with you guys oh I don't even know this I don't think you do oh so excited anyway so that is our those are kind of our final thoughts on Bruce Blackwood and going back to just bodyless cases in general we realized that in a week one we never really gave you any statistics on these we talked about some historical moments but there are there are actual numbers associated with this so Melissa hit us with some some facts all right so I have a quick just a few quick stats on nobody cases so there's this gentleman named Ted DiBiase and he's a former assistant United States attorney in DC and he wrote a book on nobody homicides and he's still consulted on nobody cases across the US even today his nickname and his ex Twitter ex whatever handle is literally quote the nobody guy and quote this guy he's got a whole stick I went on his website and on there is like a link where it's like you know reach out to us about consulting on the case so I think that's really cool but Ted states that as of 2020 the conviction rate of nobody cases was 86% which is crazy high and is actually 16% higher than the conviction rate for all murder cases like in general blows my mind blows my mind because you just hear about how difficult these things are to solve and when you hear that number it's like anybody on the outside could be like no pretty good odds you know and I guess it's just it's all the work that's put in and because I think these things are so they're becoming more common now with with technology but I mean I think that comes down to that is that they can get these cases in a good place to score these convictions it's just proof of how all of this other evidence comes together well and actually the conviction rate for murder cases is 70% so this is 86% nobody or 86% this is 70 like isn't that nuts that is nuts you would think it would be highly skewed the other way around absolutely well um yeah that's a lot higher than I thought and you know what else I thought of um and I didn't know that so I'm not going to give the exact stats but there was something about these nobody cases like more than half have been solved since just 2000 just because we're advancing so much in science and technology and yeah so I thought that was interesting I will have close numbers well hopefully if that technology persists and these cases continue to be solved a lot more families are going to get answers uh so I know fingers crossed man this would be awesome keep keep the chain rolling you know was there was there like a moment in history where this whole phenomenon started like the very first nobody conviction on record that's a loaded question if you google that you're going to get a hundred different answers um some sources and I saw this the most as credit as being the first nobody case um and I mean Northwestern University's Pritzker school of law like they claimed this so they claimed that the first nobody case was in 1812 in Vermont however yeah and actually I sort of remember the story but two guys were charged with the murder I think it was um their brother in law okay and then a few years later someone saw this guy in Dover Delaware was that the day I remember bits and pieces of that case but it wasn't even like someone saw him it was someone said they saw him and yeah they were like okay must not be all right well yeah so I do remember that so yeah so a lot of places say that one but if you google literally quote first nobody case in the United States and quote most sources including like the New York Times I'm Associated Press they agree that the murder of Evelyn Frost be Scott in or around 1955 was the first case do you know that case I sort of I sort of remember that I think it was a it was a husband didn't the husband do it uh-huh it's always the husband there's even t-shirts that say that um so I know this case has been covered a bunch so I'm not gonna go into crazy detail but Evelyn's husband and his name was Leonard Ewing Scott he was convicted in 1957 of her death although her body was never found but the evidence was pretty strong with that apparently shortly after Evelyn went missing Leonard had started a fire and neighbors actually called the police to complain about the stench that the fire gave off do you ever think about the how brazen I mean put yourself put yourself back in the 80s I know I'm a little older than you but so like I remember the 80s and and the the advent of DNA just kind of it opened up so many new avenues and I feel like killers back in the day were so brazen because they had no clue that any of this was on the horizon so this guy's just out starting a little fire burn like and things like that or the or the people that that committed sex crimes with with no regard for where they left any biological evidence because what's DNA they're never gonna catch me they're gonna have to see me or someone's gonna have to wrap me out for them to catch exactly so it's wild never yeah I think about that a lot and I often wonder what these people I shouldn't say men women whatever people if they're in like 60 there's 60s 70s 80s and they're like oh m g I'm gonna get caught like you know what I mean like they're stressing out about a crime they committed back in the 70s or something guaranteed I've I've done cases where the perpetrator they've said they flat out said to police like I was wondering when you were coming for me like yes when they do confess it's like this weight lifted and so they can you imagine though you commit a crime back in the 60s and all of a sudden you start hearing news about genealogical DNA and all these advances you're like I'm I'm screwed and then you find out your second cousin three times remove did 23 and me and yeah right thanks a lot Jack yeah yeah cousin Jack yeah well I honestly hope they keep catching people that way because it's so cool no it's such an it's such an interesting topic and I'm really glad we we picked it to start yeah I agree and I know that you and I could talk about it for hours but I have there's just so many cases but I actually have one more nobody case that was too crazy not to tell you about and I'm gonna tell you the story it's short but I thought it needed to be shared and you know if you're interested in more information you can hit us up on our Facebook page and maybe we can start a discussion chat group about the case so I picked this case in part because it's about this incredibly like beautiful kind intelligent woman and her murder didn't get the attention it deserved well it didn't get the right attention I should say so I've heard this phrase said before I don't know that you have you overheard the phrase less dead let's I feel like I have and I doesn't it refer to people who the victim is less dead it's like yeah isn't it like people considered like less of a human being in some people's eyes like their murders aren't important or why would people care about their murders so the actual definition according to an article by Lauren E. Fernandez for William and Mary Law School the term less dead is used in criminal investigation and journalism to refer to quote people whom society has deemed less important these are marginalized groups the people who attract less attention and whose faces networks decide are not worthy of a broadcast and quote that's sick it's I have I have thoughts on it and you you know my thoughts I do now before I get into my case I know this idea of certain people being unworthy of attention and compassion is not new and I know something we both get fired up about but if I heard of fired up as an understatement because so I'll share my thoughts on it because since the the very first in my very first day in true crime go back to 2003 when this this whole phenomenon was still taken off networks even back then would discriminate against people who as you say are less dead meaning like prostitutes I'm trying to think of other examples of prostitutes are the big one and it drives me nuts because not everybody is in prostitution just for the reasons people think sometimes they're people who've lost their job sometimes their situation changed and they had no other way to make money for some of them have children so networks feel like this is a topic that nobody wants to hear about because it's just a prostitute no one cares about prostitutes and drug addicts maybe it's somebody who who was down on their luck who was killed a homeless person their cases don't see the light of day and it's because they get shot down the second you go to pitch him it has to be a an extraordinary case extraordinary or it has to be a rash you'll see shows where thirteen prostitutes were killed who could have done it but they don't care about the prostitutes it's the it's the the case and the the person they they're only interested if it serves that that need to set up a serial killer or something more interesting like it's just these people get passed over and they have loved ones and just because they were doing those types of things you can't discriminate against them they're still human beings with with people who love them and they were still killed in horrific ways and it sucks that at the end of the day for you know the networks it comes down to money always and what they believe wants to be watched yeah and it's such a shame because there are so many stories that are never told that deserve to be told yeah and not even told in like the newspapers it's yeah it's just good it's not everything about it human interest uh-huh so i mean this is part of the reason i really wanted to tell robin's story so i'm going to tell you about the murder of robin benedict and the conviction of william henry james douglas so robin nadie petadict was born on july 19th in 1961 i come find out much about her early life um again the attention that she and her murder received in this case was incredibly skewed i do know she was from massachusetts boston massachusetts seems like she had a really good childhood pretty standard she was gorgeous i know i showed you the picture earlier and we'll put one up um she was incredibly gorgeous oh my gosh like beauty queen so and up until her late teens really she seemed to be destined for greatness she had dreams of becoming graphic designers she graduated from vo tech school she actually did a year at rizdie which is the road island school of design wow so really good school she had big things out of her she really did and um i just saw this right before we signed on to record but apparently when she was in college she was going out with a new uh the patriots a patriots linebacker oh and he took her to some party and there was a gentleman there who um mentioned to robin that she could make a lot of money and sex work wow and her boyfriend was like no she's not gonna do that um but she was like that could be a way to make money so apparently that's how it kind of happened interesting so did you know boston once had a red light district i did not i did not either it was actually referred to as the combat zone i never heard of that yeah i i know so it might not have been the best place to hang out um so robin found herself employed as a sex worker at sort of uh a massage place one of her clients was this guy named william henry james douglas and he was actually a professor of anatomy at tufts university medical school wow so he was he was white collar too oh my absolutely wow um and he had a doctorate from brown so sky was no dumb like he was no dummy yeah well um so yeah if you want to rephrase that you want to think yeah yeah right so robin and william met in the spring of 1982 i think it was in april and he quickly became one of her best clients he was fascinated by her and at the time she was charging about a hundred dollars an hour and that's in 1982 money so that would actually be about three hundred and twenty five dollars today so three hundred and twenty five dollars an hour essentially wow i can honestly say that i don't know what the going rate for sex workers ed no don't let me into this i mean i probably not that much anyway he started out as one of her best clients spending hundreds and eventually thousands of dollars with robin um i'm sure he was actually i know he was showering her with gifts eventually of course he realized he couldn't keep up this expensive lifestyle he can't spend three hundred and twenty five dollars a day i mean it's true i could happily spend that each other you shouldn't yeah yeah if i have to yeah maybe three dollars and twenty five cents also need a financial advice absolutely i do so instead of him cutting back a little or you know maybe just stopping all together and going home to his wife of several years and mother of his children her you know he decided to use university money to fund his sex campaigns so he basically said that he hired an assistant named quote unquote nadine which was robin's middle name and he used that money to keep robin in his life so over the course of their i don't really want to call it a relationship um there was a relationship it was a business really i mean it right you don't know if any love existed but it was definitely a relationship that's fair she definitely didn't love him and i don't think what he had was not love it was it was the one for control obsession so over the time they were together he bought her a car and even a house wow yeah wow and you tell me there's no love there like i'm not neither of us have experience in this but like there there has to be some kind of like what what need are you serving you know i mean yeah but i don't think his love was healthy it was like a toxic love for her okay i think there's a difference between love and lust and a difference between obsession and love i think it's a fine line that's true and the and some people who some of these guys with their i don't know they're power tripping you know like it's just like it's like you said a control thing so it's not even about the sex or the money it's about the control it's about the control yeah and she saw this as a business transaction she was a business woman so pretty soon william was definitely becoming more of a controlling stalker than of a good favored client so actually in december of that year so december of 82 william felt like he was losing robin like i think she was pulling away a little trying to schedule him a little bit less um so he decided to break into her apartment he actually stole her message machine like when you left messages on an actual machine gonna answer each other that's it answering machine yeah so he stole that man do you do you think he started pulling back or sorry do you think she started pulling back because she was starting to see little signs like unhealthy signs in this relationship like maybe this guy absolutely this controlling this um not a word but this this control that he's exhibiting is he's getting scary yeah and this has become more of a situation a scary situation than of a business deal i mean at one point she found him like hiding in her bushes oh yeah so with in that line of work the one thing that that is is common across the board is that it's common knowledge you're putting yourself at risk i mean you are you're getting with people because it's illegal you're conducting a lot of these transactions behind closed doors or or just very secretive um so i feel like a lot of them don't understand they maybe understand the risks but the p the clientele that they're dealing with are not always good people and it's about more to those people than just a business transaction but i also think that a lot of these women are forced so they don't have a choice about who they take well yeah and they they see dollar signs and not i'm not talking just they see dollar signs but they see they're they're out there to make money so yeah they see that money on their horizon so there they let their they let their guard down they let their morals down a little bit just to make sure that their that the deal goes off of that a hitch right i got what you're saying yeah um yeah i think it all depends on the situation and you know how they got into the line of work and it's a lot of different factors but william breaking into her apartment really shook Robin up and not knowing it was william like obviously she had no idea it was him she kind of she didn't lean on him for comfort but he somehow found out about it and he actually bought her like a new answering machine and you know so he could be this nice guy who was there for her after this horrible break-in that you know it it's exactly the outcome he wanted like he looked like the hero and he felt like robin needed him so in january so a month later january of 1983 william had really realized that you know she was pulling away and she had actually been let go from the place she had been working at and found a new place to work it was another massage parlor and so william was upset because apparently this was a less classy establishment i guess and so he called the police on her and said that you know he just went in there for a massage super innocent wow and she tried to like solicit him and as a result of that robin was fired that's awful this guy is this i'm still getting like you think the term gaslighting has been around for so long but i'm still like never don't is this gas lighting like i don't entirely know what hit that is but um this is more than get gaslightings more it's mental oh okay so this guy is just doing things what is this then is there a term for this like what he's doing and then swooping in and playing the hero i mean it goes along with obsessed stock or behavior i believe i don't know the official law term but i would definitely file it under harasser um stalker obsessive interesting so william's control i mean everybody wants to feel needed you know so then that's how he wanted to feel but he didn't go about it the right way well yeah because this guy's then then going out of his way to to hurt her in other ways when he didn't get what he wanted and it's just exactly it's such a typical behavior yep it's sick so he just kept getting more controlling and stalker like and pretty soon robin hadn't really had enough and she was like this has crossed a line from a business relationship and it stops now i don't want you as a client i don't want you as a friend i don't want you in my life well of course william is absolutely like get it girl so of course william's pissed you know he didn't respect of course he didn't respect those boundaries that she set for him so actually on march second of 1983 robin called william's wife and you know to talk to her and said this is what happened and now your husband is coming after me like wow so now they're playing oh man this is like it's just she's that you can hear the desperation i mean for that to to get to that level robin was desperate yeah and i don't see it and i didn't get the feeling that it was a vindictive move on her part i think it was the last point that she could do before she went to the police which as we'll see later due to her profession she isn't given the utmost respect that she deserved and that happens and and you don't want to lump i would never never lump all police departments together but that the reality is it does happen and it happened more back in the 80s than it does today like it was there was a an old mentality yeah um but because i think the exposure to the topics like this are making departments aware that that everyone's important and all the detectives i've never run into a detective that has has placed someone on a less dead level like they treat all cases the same and that's it's refreshing to hear and it's good to know those guys are out there absolutely yeah it makes me you know a faith in the system right so his wife really didn't care she just kind of didn't let it affect her i'm sure on some level she knew yeah you wonder what was going on in their house to begin with yeah exactly so just three days later after that phone call was made on march 5th 1983 and keep in mind i don't know if you know where our time was this is less than a year after they had met wow like 11 months and he's this obsessed this snowballed quickly absolutely yeah so on that day march 5th she disappeared so after a few days without communication one of robin's friends and co-workers she went to the police and she was like look my friend is missing and it's weird and also she had this creepy stalker william well a missing person's report about a sex worker from a sex worker the police didn't really give it much thought mine that's a shame yeah so well this is going on Tufts University remember he works for them he they're quietly looking into william for embezzlement oh so this guy yeah 67 thousand dollars insane and back then that was a it's a ton of money today too but back then yeah oh i should have looked that up i didn't um so apparently at one point someone from the university called william's wife we're talking about her again and mentioned to her that you know he had kind of been acting strange like i think at that point they knew about the embezzlement but they were kind of calling her to maybe put a bug in her ear like hey he needs to confess to this like that's you know just kind of feeling things out so according to an article written by true crime nightmares for medium.com his wife told the university that she you know he wouldn't be a problem anymore and that she had quote taking care of the woman at the root of the problem wow wow are you kidding me like this is one of those cases where everything it's like the blackwood case that we talked about like everything early on points to one person and it's just like how do we how do we get yes absolutely but you know what like robin was the problem like how about you tell your husband to you know stay at home like robin was doing her job right so when the police finally did zero in on william which by the way this wasn't until april of 1984 so more than a year after she went missing and he said that he only killed robin in self-defense of course he did yeah of course so self-defense and i love when they stab but when they stab someone 80 times in self-defense and yeah or you know they find the victim like turned the other way yeah oh self-defense no no so he spends this wild tale to police about how robin came to his house one night and was a sledgehammer and she was trying to extort him for thousands of dollars and only after so he only hit her after she threatened to hit him with the sledgehammer and again this was the woman who called his wife William's wife to say i'm very scared of this man please make him stop yes got it yeah got it got it William sure so he admits you know he killed her but it was in self-defense all right if it was in self-defense tell me why he then took the body into his car drove to Rhode Island somewhere in providence uh providence at a mall and through her remains in a dumpster it's such typical it's like admitting something but back but but also trying to soften it like this was self-defense and then i was scared i didn't know what to do i was panicked these all follow this this formula you can you can almost like count on it these guys when they do confess they try to minimize their involvement or or motives it's almost like he's like all right well i know i can't completely remove myself from the situation but i can remove some of the blame right and the root of the problem right oh that's sick so because we only have William's story and to this day robin's body has never been found we don't know the truth about what actually transpired that night but it has been speculated that robin went to William's house so malley lured her over there i don't know how um because again we don't have her side so between her rejection a few days before and the fact that she well not a few days before for a while but also the fact that she called his wife and told her about William's extracurricular activities William got so angry and took the sledgehammer and killed robin that seems way more plausible absolutely so on april 27th 1984 William finally confessed to murdering 21-year-old robin benedict undisposing of her body now this is where our case differs a lot from the other ones because there was no body he was only conflicted of manslaughter and he was sentenced to 18 to 20 years of prison time and again look at the year you know it's it's it's i think it would be more strict today i really do but um well you haven't you haven't heard the next part he only served eight years of that it's so infuriating because all all she did all robin did was tell him no you know she no longer wanted to provide this service and it hurt his little fragile little man ego and and and these these nuk jobs when they when that happens they they lash out physically it's almost like they can't take no one's gonna talk to me like that like get out of here it's pathetic is what it is it's absolutely and you know because he was a well respected upstanding university professor right no one thought that he could be capable capable of this and well and if all this if all this embezzling stuff was coming out too i think people maybe at the university were starting to like oftentimes it's like when something little like that not little but when something else happens people start to get start to question that person like this is the guy that we thought was this great professor we never thought anything of him and now all of a sudden murders plausible he could steal sixty seven thousand dollars i wouldn't put it past him exactly but because of her job i don't think i mean we'll get into it in a minute but she was almost villainized right and that's that's the worst thing that can happen just back to the eight years it's insane that he can extinguish the life and potential life of this like beautiful vibrant young woman and then he just you know mine really inconvenienced with spending a few years in jail mm-hmm get out of here like that's that's insane it is insane and it's a it's a total miscarriage of justice and it's i've done several several cases that that have taken place during this time period and there were there were laws that existed and depending on the state there were different laws but overcrowding people were getting let out early like there were all these excuses to why these dangerous people were heading back out on the streets and it's it's scary and communities suffer because of it and the the think about robin's family to learn eight years later the guy that did this is getting back out i mean it's such a it's insult to injury it is it really is it's like a slap in the face so because only after he confessed did he actually attempt to lead them to robin's body this is a little bit different like then the other cases we've talked about um you know he volunteered he said all right you know i'll take you but unfortunately her body was never found because it was a landfill right it was like yeah because it was the dumpster was taken to a landfill and at this point it had been at least a year yeah and and sometimes landfills are are can play a role in in cases you know they i'm sure you've heard a million of them where police will go to if they know something was thrown out on a certain day they can they can make grids of the landfill and figure out where certain trash get they find out that the the trash schedules and they find out where exactly in the landfill things were dumped and how long ago they were dumped and they can sit they can it may not be like searching the entire landfill they can almost narrow it down so you have this massive sea of trash but sometimes you can pinpoint and they often will find stuff so you know this whole thing sucks for so many reasons including the fact that her family really wanted her home and i only say wanted because i'm not sure who of her family members are still living but they wanted they want her home and i get that they want their little girl and they want their sister um i don't think it would give them closure per se but i i think it would help the grieving process i don't think closure really exists you've talked to a lot of victims what do you think i have and i i agree with you i think that i i agree with you but i don't i haven't lived through this but i think a lot of people would agree with you too um that closure is bullshit closure closure is a word that that's that the media likes to throw around that that sometimes even departments like to throw on we just want to give closure to this for the families closure never comes because you imagine taking this big part of your life away and it was through no fault to your own and in the most horrific way possible so now the challenge becomes how do we we heal like the the nightmare is never closed it's now going to affect them the rest of their lives because they don't have that person to share birthdays with and and major milestones in people's lives births of children um graduations things that that person would have been there for that now they don't get to experience or every time something like that comes up it's i wish so and so was here to see this or i wish my my mother could have been here to experience this to to be at my daughter's wedding and it's right so you don't get closure you get you get an ending to a chapter but as far as the healing that that never you can heal but you may never truly be healed oh it's like a wound heals but there's gonna be a scar there exactly and and these are things that that don't end for people there and their nightmares that that can be stuffed down into deep dark corners but they they aren't gone if that makes sense apps 100% and it's horrific and heartbreaking and you know one last reason why i really wanted to cover this case and i kind of want to open this up for a future episode i kind of mentioned that at that at the beginning but this is largely thought to be one of the first or biggest crimes trials uh where the narrative was kind of flipped and the victim was basically blamed for her death it's a it's the victim blaming is a that's real too and again if if her line of work was different if she was a secretary somewhere or if she worked at a grocery store you know it would be oh this beautiful woman who was aspiring to be all the you know it but because she was a sex worker she got pushed to the back of the newspaper and it's like no one is naming like if i were to be murdered no one's going to say what my job is yeah i don't yeah yeah exactly exactly i mean well that's not true i mean we someone it would come up in an article when someone does this great she lit up a room be up biography on you oh yeah that room is dark yeah it's talk someone so this case was actually often referred to as the case of the professor in the prostitute so right there you can see yeah yeah like you're making him to be a professor which automatically makes you think collegiate university you know right a teacher a leader and um the prostitute not the victim not a professor killed a woman no you know because her job wasn't you does a job right right and and it's it's just such a shame and i hope that we get the chance to do a whole we should do a whole show on the on the forgotten just the people who who were pushed to the side because of what they did and there there's good in everyone and just because people put themselves in bad situations or dangerous situations doesn't make them you never know what somebody's going through yeah so it's really frustrating but i'm so glad that you picked that case i mean that's an example of a case that i that deserves to see the light of day absolutely well thanks you're welcome and what that and thank you and what that does is it kind of wraps up our block on on bodyless crimes and uh we hope we want to hear what you guys think if if there's some cases that you want to talk about we we are available on socials we love to talk about this stuff and we'll chat with you so reach out talk about a case that that has always bothered you or or a victim that had been forgotten that we can somehow feature or we can um shed light on on that thing so absolutely and you know what if you've stuck with us this long thank you yeah you made it you made the first round of cuts so we hope you guys all tune in next week when we start our second block on um a theme the theme for july is going to be hedonistic killers which originally we had called thrill killers but the know it all here melissa it like explained to me that there's a difference between hedonistic killers and thrill killers and i still i don't know the difference and i'm curious the only hedonism i know about there's a an adult's only resort in jamaica so that's the only thing that's the hedonism i so that is not this so i'm i'm interested to hear the difference when we go deep diving into the into that realm and then i am going to actually in week two cover a a case that that is very personal to me um one that that occupied a year and a half maybe two years of my life um about a hedonistic killer the likes of which you may never hear again i mean his motives were so messed up and it was it was messed up enough where i had the um privilege of working on a two-hour documentary for investigation discovery called the lost boys of buck county and um it's a story that we're going to bring to you in two parts because it's so intense and so massive and because there's five weeks in the next month so we're covering so it works out it works out um and then in week three of that block we are going to we would be week four strike that it will be after we tell our lost boys of buck's county story we will be talking to one of my closest friends in the world um we've worked together for almost 20 years now his name is phil claroni and he was an intern of mine back in forensic files who went on to become uh EP of several major shows um and he actually was the co EP on the lost boys documentary so we're gonna bring him on he has some incredible insight to share on that that i think you guys are going to really connect with so stay tuned for that absolutely and i just want to say that your documentary is phenomenal i have seen it probably more times than you have seen it i think that's true that's true if anyone wants to watch it before the episode i was able to get it on amazon prime um it is on a couple random streaming uh platforms and then you can also check out the investigation discovery yeah there's they have an app that you can use but it is it is a pretty a pretty incredible documentary and it was fun to work on because it was like a one-off um it wasn't like a series it was just this one this one case that we got the chance to really go go crazy with with some details and and things that i mean this this was massive i don't want to give too much away so we'll get into that uh but before we go so before we close out this block there is something that we wanted to bring you guys like an icebreaker of sorts and melissa i don't know if you we threw around some ideas so we're gonna play some little kind of true crime we're gonna take you out of this the the sadness for a little bit and that the kind of murder and mayhem and do something a little more light-hearted just to cleanse your palate before we get into some more disturbing stuff next week so this particular week we're we always talk about melissa being this encyclopedia of true crime knowledge she's the yeah do people even know what encyclopedias are anymore but no you're the google yeah you're the wiki of where you have a lot of information and some is accurate some is not i mean it's just it's like 90 85 percent accurate so i'm going to ask you five trivia questions and you are going to have to answer them and we're going to see how many out of five you get right so let's do some trivia i don't know any of them i look like a fraud well then you're exposed and everyone unsubscribes so good luck no pressure no pressure i'm sweating okay melissa spivy the wikipedia of true crime are you ready to answer five questions oh yes all right yeah i got this i got a question one and i will melissa has not seen these trivia questions i want to point that out number one serial killer ed camper who murdered 10 people in california between 1963 and 1971 was better known by what moniker the co-ed killer correct the co-ed killer one for one yeah question two from whom did david burkowitz aka the son of sam claim to receive orders from to kill others so i actually talk about him next week um and he didn't listen yeah and he didn't listen to killers not that he is one but he's a certain type of serial killer um anyway he got it from like i mean it's the voices in his head but also his neighbor's dog i would have accepted that's man you got a bonus point that was i would have accepted dog neighbor's dog or do you know the name of the neighbor's dog i don't i wish i did i used to i used to and i remember the kind too i could come up with it but i can't think of it off of my head yeah that i don't know two for two question three during what decade did robert kessler coin the term serial killer while working in the fbi's behavioral science unit so not the late 70s it was the 70s man no it's three for three proof is in the pudding question four which song by the Beatles led charles manson to believe that a race war was coming halter scalter it was an easy i threw you one because i figured you that was an easy one yeah you're welcome yeah yeah yeah question five gypsy rose blanchard who was big if if you if you all haven't seen the act i highly recommend you watching the act what a good show anyway gypsy rose blanchard is the the focus of that particular show so gypsy rose blanchard who pleaded guilty to second degree murder of her mother didi was a victim of what psychological disorder all right it just got renamed recently and i'm going to be 100 on us i don't know what the new term is but essentially munchausons by proxy you're correct it uh fictitious disorder imposed on another or fdi a formerly munchausons endered by proxy fact just disorder imposed i'm going to remember fdi a fdi a that's what's how banks keep your money safe that's the fdi see i don't know i've there's some banks i'm not so sure anyway that is all we have for you this week and we thank you guys for tuning in on this dive into the world of bodyless crimes and um we will see you next week for a whole different theme and a whole new can worms absolutely and if you want to check in with us before then you can get us at www murder unscripted pod dot com you can email us at murder unscripted pod at gmail dot com or you can hit us up on the socials we have all of them i believe um simply at murder unscripted that's it so before we go we just want everyone to remember perverts don't wear signs let's say they're perverts can you even buy signs let's say that you could make one bye you you you You [BLANK_AUDIO]