(upbeat music) Welcome back to a slut's guide to happiness, where your body is perfectly imperfect and it's safe to be a sexual, kinky, queer, or slutty as you want. I'm really excited to be talking with a kind and open-hearted woman, a friend and medical professional joining us today from California. I first met Madam Law through T-Max, another kinky, kinky, queer friend, who you've heard on this podcast. And I've heard from T-Max on a personal level how long Madam Law has been supportive of their journey, coming out as queer, kinky and polyemorous, and embracing this new version of themselves, which I think is amazing. And Madam Law is now on her own vulnerable and amazing journey of exploring ethical nominee, kink. And it's been really inspiring to me to see the way that she has shared it with her partner, friends, and community as she imagines her, reimagines her relationship to sexuality. But what does, isn't new to Madam Law, is her longtime role as a professional nurse, as well as her strong feminist values throughout her life. And like me, Madam Law is also the mom of a daughter who has long thought about, and Madam Law has long thought about how to support girls and becoming self-authored and powerful women in a patriarchal society. So she's been an inspiration to me in the way that she raises her child, and also thinks critically about a future that makes healthcare and society safer and more empowering for women and girls. So today I have the pleasure of talking about an issue that if you've heard my previous podcast on 10 wicked hot ways to wait on an STI, you know, this is dear to my heart. And I also believe that sexual freedom is life affirming, is health, is part of wellbeing in our lives. I often think about the line from Mary Oliver's poem, Wild Geese. You do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through the desert repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. So to live that whole life as authentic loving beings, as whole, complex people, as soft bodied animals, we need access to sex positive healthcare. Really any of us, anywhere in the world who are having sex, which is almost all of us, who need access to prevention and treatment to sustain our health free of stigma and judgment. We've talked about some of the important and lesser known ways to promote sexual health, including preventive medications like PrEP that reduces the risk of HIV and doxy pets, that reduces the chances of contracting syphilis, gonorrhea and chlamydia. In addition, just like getting mammograms to test for breast cancer, regular STI testing allows for early detection and easier treatment of STIs. But a whole bunch of structural and cultural barriers prevent people, especially women, from having easy, supportive access to STI testing. Today, Madam Law is going to share her personal experiences accessing and sometimes trying to access testing, as well as a really powerful, vulnerable and impactful personal story from her early adult life about the impact of undetected STIs. Before we proceed, I want to take one last moment to honor something that's often missed or gotten incorrectly, gotten in a way that is potentially harmful in discussion about STIs. There's a language of clean and dirty, right? And I think that dirty communicates as there's something wrong. That person did something wrong. Part of that is slut-shaming, which as you know, this is me out in the world. Let me be the first person to say, like live your beautiful sexual free life, including if you want to, being slutty. And like anybody can get an STI as recently talking with a doctor who said that HPV or human papilloma virus is so prevalent in the population that even if you've had sex with one or two people ever in your life, you probably have had that at some point in your life. So STIs, let's take away the language of clean and dirty. Let's take away the stigma and shame. Let's talk about, in the same way that we've talked about catching the cold, let's talk honestly and openly and publicly about Chlamydia and syphilis and gonorrhea and HIV and these things that are just part of the experience of having a human body. So Madam Law, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited to talk with you and I'm also really grateful about your willingness to share both your amazing feminist values in the world and your personal experiences that are vulnerable and not always things that people talk about. So I know you're doing great here. Oh, yay. (laughs) Oh, beautiful human. So I know your experiences with STIs goes way back, but I wanna first start with this very recent experience that we were talking about a month or two, you were trying to access STIs and even though you're a nurse, you're a highly educated professional and a feminist, confidently speaking in your mind, you also had difficulty accessing it both emotionally and logistically. So can you tell us what happened? So it's kind of so emotional, you know, 'cause it should be the way I wanna feel about it and the way I actually feel about it, the emotions around it are very different. I want it to be science. I want it to be seen as anyone who's reaching out for healthcare is able to receive it. It's affordable, it's accessible, there's no judgment, but I still feel as a woman and I grew up in the Midwest, you know, I grew up in the Bible Belt, I still feel there's even after years and years just working to undo some of these super negative messages, there's still a lot to unpack and just, just even finding fun in the word slut is hilarious and still just, that's just so amazing 'cause it's been such a word used to shame women for so long and sexual health is so important. So recently I wanted to participate in a Cliff Media event and that required testing, which I think is awesome 'cause that's keeping people safe and it should require testing and it should be simple and anyone, you shouldn't even have to explain why you want testing, you know? I should be able to walk in and just say, I want these tests done. So, but I also work in an environment where I don't feel that my chart is private. I work in an organization where people I work with might be in my chart because they might be providing care, not because they're my co-workers snooping, but because I did have an experience where I was hospitalized for pneumonia and I had started dating somebody who I was, you know, we were in a new relationship and he had slept with somebody else. We had not been using condoms and he, when I asked him if he used to condom with this person, he, you know, he did tell me he didn't and so I asked him to please get tested and because we have so much shame, I'm doing this in a very roundabout way but basically there's so much shame for him too and I told him, I said, I asked him several times to please get tested, he dragged his feet and so I just went and got tested 'cause I have to take care of myself. I, you know, I just wanna take care of myself. So I went in and asked to be tested and I remember even being asked by the woman at the front desk, she was like, well, why do you wanna be tested? And it's like, why the hell do you think I'm gonna be tested? Are you gonna make me say in the lobby? You know, why? It's, you want me to say in the middle of the gynecological lobby. So, you know, I said because I might have been exposed to a sexually transmitted infection and she said, oh, okay. But it's like, why do you think I wanna be tested? Oh, my, there's some logic here. So I got tested, my results came back and within a couple of days I got a really, really bad case and ammonia wound up in the hospital. And it was already emotional for me going through this with my partner, it was hurtful. I was mad at him for not getting tested faster and I felt like my diary was open to people in the hospital setting and I'd worked in this hospital. So people coming into the room, sometimes we're coming in just to say hi because they care about me and they know I was hospitalized. And sometimes those people were my friends who were caring for me, coming in as my nurse, coming in as my doctor. And it felt like everything about me is in the chart. I'm a married woman. There's STI testing within the last two weeks. They don't know what the status of my relationships are. Nor do I wanna talk about them necessarily, but I felt super uncomfortable and exposed. So fast forward to recently wanting to participate in a filming, wanting to respect, of course, be safe, do the right thing. I reached out to my doctor and it took me having to pump myself up, kind of like, okay, here we go, we're gonna do this. I'm a grown up, I can ask for this. It's my right, it's my healthcare. And so I asked, I just said, hey, I'm in a new relationship and I wanna get tested, order test, no big deal. However, after participating, I wanted follow-up testing. Even though, apparently I was wrong, but I thought it was required, like pre and post. So I was trying to do the post and the algorithm does not include unless I have symptoms or something, you know, it's every three months. And I can't speak to all the rules around it 'cause this is not my specialization. But I also felt like I wanna establish care in a more private way because this is hard for me to ask for testing in my place of work. It makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't wanna explain. So I reached out to an organization that I love and because I have insurance, they didn't wanna serve me without it being an out-of-pocket cost and unless my doctor gave me an off, I won't go into the insurance, but basically, it was gonna be out-of-pocket and very expensive. So I decided to look for other organizations and I did find San Francisco City Clinic, they serve a queer culture, the patient population, and they were very good to me, but every time they would review my chart again, even on my way in to receive testing, somebody had called me to tell me not to come in, they were gonna cancel seeing me. And I'm just glad I didn't take the call and I just showed up and told them, hey, this is why I wanna do this and I wanna establish private care and this is really important to me and they have their own algorithms too. So on paper, I'm a married, just professional white woman and I feel like I have to give a whole lot of backstory to receive care and it just feels like I have to, it doesn't feel comfortable. I don't wanna have to always be empowered when I go and ask for some testing. And it was hard, it was emotional, you know? And I just, I wish we had an attitude of, thank God, you're doing follow-up, you know? We're good for you for taking care of yourself, you know? And just, I know some of this is my own personalized, just years of negative messaging about being sexual as a woman, but some of it is also we have a healthcare system that participates in this culture and it's challenging. I had another time where I was having a lot of terrible symptoms that, and I had to ask, I was like, are you gonna test me for STIs? You know, they were doing all these workups and they were like, no, and I was like, why not? You know, I'm having unknown symptoms, why would you not test me for this? So I had to ask. And it just was like, it just wasn't considered part of the care, even though I was having symptoms of like bleeding, anal bleeding, check it out. Let's, you know, let's run an STI panel. It's like, let's just check this thing out. And I had to ask, because again, in my chart, I'm just a married boy, and so, I shouldn't have had to ask for that. So. - And I think it's interesting that, you know, you're naming that part of it is like your own fear of sharing that, but that's not a personal thing, right? Because all of our ideas are part of the socialization that we have, and doctors and nurses and so on are also acculturated to that. Our structures are based on our societal values. And so there's a lot of shame and stigma and discrimination and assumptions that are attached to whether we need STI testing, who needs it, what does it mean we need STI testing? I've gone to the point where I walk into a clinic and I say, I am a high volume sex worker. I need regular STI testing. I've had one doctor in my life who said, good for you, like, we love our regulars who are taking care of ourselves. And for most people, they're like, are you being safe? And like, it is written in my charts that I am a high volume sex worker, which I know then results in discrimination or ideas by some people when I'm interacting with them in the healthcare system. And I feel like I know that there are also a lot of people who don't want to have that kind of record, who don't want to have that in their private confidential conversations with their doctors and so we're looking for like, where are those clinics where I can have confidential, easy access STI testing without judgment? And so I want to go back to back in your life. And I know that this one is particularly sensitive, especially since you were really young. And it was, I don't know if you would describe it as traumatic, but to me, it seems like a pretty-- - Well, it's traumatic. - Yeah. - It was fantastic. - Yeah. - So you are looking at hospital. Can you tell us what happened, how you ended up there and what was your experience? - So I had a boyfriend. We were having intercourse. I was using birth control, but I wasn't using condoms. I was on a birth control pill. And I started developing terrible pain, just pelvic pain. And this was before the internet and Google and all that. And I called my gynecologist and I just said, I described this pain, like I was having trouble walking. I was in so much pain. And I was diagnosed over the phone with something called gardenarilla vaginitis, which is basically yeast infection. And again, I couldn't get on the internet and be like, this is, so I actually, no, I'm saying this wrong. Oh my gosh, I mean, it was a while ago. I went to the ER, that's what it was. I went to the emergency room. I was in so much pain. And I was diagnosed there with the yeast infection. So I had a hands-on exam. They clearly didn't do any testing, you know? And I just, the pain was incredible. And they gave me medication for a yeast infection and discharged me. And that's when I called my doctor's office, because again, no internet. And I was like, please describe the symptoms of gardenarilla vaginitis to me, because I'm really in pain. And they were like, oh, mild itching irritation. And so they basically told me to go to the ER. And of course, I got admitted. And I was on IV antibiotics for three days. I'm 19. In the Midwest, my mom's not local, and it's just my dad. And my dad is not comfortable with this. And he was not a good support. And I remember he even called my mom and said, please don't tell me if I don't have to know what's going on. Like he literally said that to my mother. So I felt very alone. And there was no testing for my boyfriend, even after I was diagnosed with chlamydia. This is a sexually transmitted infection. Nobody said, do you have a boyfriend? Do you know the source? Nobody did that public health backup. So I don't know. I told him he needed to get medication, but I wish somebody just handed me meds, but like he needs to take this, you know? And here's a couple of others for the other people that he slept with. And you know, I don't know, just something. Like pass it out like candy with some instructions. And so I was in the hospital. I still remember this was obviously before I was a nurse, but I still remember my nurse's name, Connie. She took such good care of me. But it felt uncomfortable already. Like, I'm the young girl in the hospital in the Midwest with a sexually transmitted disease. And at one point, I woke up and there was a doctor taking the blanket that I was asleep, but he was taking my blanket and starting to pull down the blanket to expose my body. And I just, I woke up and my bed was surrounded by men. And I mean, they were hospital people, but he didn't wake me up. He didn't ask permission to touch me. And I just grabbed my blanket and I said, what are you doing? Get out of here. And he was like, you know, what were doctors? And these are residents and medical students. And they need to see this for medical learning. And I was like, no, unfortunately, my mom did raise me with the backbone. And he was like, you know, we need to do this. He just kind of pushed back. And I just, I was like, get the fuck out. I remember just using that kind of language 'cause I was like, this was so upsetting. I hit the call light. I'm like, fine. Connie came in and she was like, get out. The fact that they're like, what are they gonna do? Just show an angry infection. But I mean, this is internal infection. What were they gonna do? And it was just so disrespectful. It was really, really upsetting, you know? So yeah, I will never forget that. - Yeah, I think about, I had a friend who was a larger black woman. Her son had been in prison. You know, all these different ways, like she had experienced addiction. So all these different vectors on which there's potential discrimination based on structural norms in society. And she had that similar experience. Like doctors just physically held her down in order to provide, in order to do the things that they thought she wanted was good for her body rather than asking and having consensual conversations. And this again, isn't judgment on doctors or nurses specifically. This is, what does the society say about whose bodies are worthy of consent and autonomy? And I think about like someone walking in with an STI, there are so many assumptions that are built into that about your relationship to sexual sexuality, even though you're describing and it shouldn't matter. But even though you're describing that in that particular case, you had one partner, which is kind of the norm and expectation for young women. - Well, one partner that gave this to me, I knew who it was. You know, we traced it pretty easily. He was not my first partner, but I knew that that was my source, you know, because that's when the symptoms developed rather quickly. So. - And so you're in the hospital, which is not the standard experience of, if you're having a really good connection of chlamydia, it's like a week or two weeks of treatment, but what was it that resulted with you in the hospital for this? - So the infection had been untreated long enough that it became from chlamydia to active pelvic inflammatory disease, which is very painful and can have long lasting effects. It can lead to scar tissue. And for me, I did have a lot of scar tissue developed and I had pregnancy issues later in life. I had a tubal pregnancy, which went undiagnosed bleeding for eight weeks. And then I had to have emergency surgery. And again, seeking healthcare. I mean, and again, I'm in healthcare. I'm not here to malign and just, you know, drag healthcare down. I'm just, I understand how difficult it can be to provide the right care, but I also know that we bring our values and judgments too. We are all capable of making terrible mistakes. So my fertility was really compromised. I wound up needing to have emergency surgery so that I, because of a tubal pregnancy. And then I had a diagnostic that was like, look, you've got all this scar tissue and that's why you're having trouble getting pregnant. So I did go through a round of in vitro fertilization, which had its own, you know, unfun endings. But yeah, so I had a lot of drama and had I received care, had I been able to seek care sooner, you know, I'd like to believe that most people can avoid that kind of outcome. You know, if there's follow-up testing to an exposure, even before symptoms, that would be ideal. - Right, yeah. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm so happy that you're able to have a child eventually, but I think about like the sterilization of women that has happened historically and that your access to sexual health also impacted your ability to have a child and your experiences of trauma through your pregnancies. - Yeah. - And so I also imagine like, what would it have been if in high school, when you're having sexual health education classes, they had said, go get STI testing or your doctor said, okay, it's time for your routine at STI testing. It was just a normal part of healthcare as opposed to taking so long to have to figure out that you had chlamydia and by that point, you was already impacting other parts of your reproductive system. - Well, and a lot of STIs have no symptoms. And so, you know, if you have a new partner, ideally, you can just go get tested together, you know? And it's simple and I do feel like I've worked hard to have that approach when I have new partners. I can't say I'm always perfect, but I've tried to do that and I can think about, you know, one person I dated, was just so lovely. We started dating, we had sex a few times with condoms and I remember we were getting more serious and I just said, I'd like to get tested together and I remember he was just like, great, okay. And we just went together and it was just like, that was so easy, but his support meant a lot. And I've had so many experiences where I've asked, like, hey, will you get tested with me? And there's this pushback 'cause I know that we still, you talked about the feeling dirty, you know, the good, the bad, you know, only bad people have STIs and it's like a new sentence. And if you have sex, you're at risk, you know, period. It's just that simple, you know? And early detection, prevention, better, yay, you know? But I still feel like even as a nurse and a feminist and somebody who's spent a lot of time thinking about it, there's so much, so much stigma, it's hard. I mean, I remember just recently trying to get the testing done and I had to cry a few times 'cause I was like, it's very emotional. I actually pulled over on my way out of the clinic and I called T-MEX, you know? When I got the second round of testing, I just called him and I would, you know, he was just on call the whole time and I'm like, okay, I'm finding parking. He's like, okay, but he talked to me, you know, 'cause I knew I could count on him to understand the emotional toll, but also be supportive and not say anything like, just not say anything stupid, you know? I knew that I could count on him to just be there for me. - I think about, like, I used to have a crew of people who had a solidarity pact that if any of us ever needed to get an abortion, we would be the people that would hang out and hold each other's hands afterwards. And also, I love that you went with your partner. I had a date that felt really cute when we went to Planned Parenthood together. I got STI testing and was like, we're not supporting each other, this is lovely. - There's such a great conversation. Like, if you can't talk about that, then what are you doing having sex, you know? I mean, yeah, yeah. If you are putting your body parts and other people's body parts, but you can't talk about how to take care of those body parts, why are you doing it? - Right, yeah, I mean, for sure. - Having these conversations though is still, I think they're still really challenging because I'm a grownup and I've thought a lot about it and I still feel like when I bring it up over the years, as I've been a grownup, people have, partners have been very just really resistant to getting tested, like, yeah. Who do you, you know, I'm not a slut. Who do you think I'm, yeah, I don't sleep around, I don't this, I don't that. I'm just like, weren't you just dating somebody? I mean, did you guys step sex? Did you use condoms every time? Well, no. Like, then I'm having sex with everyone she's ever had sex with and everyone you've ever had sex with since you were tested, you know? It's like, it's just that logical. I'd like to be able to relax when we have sex, you know? - You know, one of the things that you shared with me that I think has similar ties to the slut-shaming that prevents us from accessing healthcare is when you are in, I don't know if it was high school or young adulthood, you were helping some of your friends access birth control, can you tell us a bit more? - Again, where I grew up, oh God, just a lot of young women felt so bad and so guilty and, you know, it's against God, it's against family, you're supposed to wait 'til you're married. And at the same time, they're alive and human and have sexuality, but they're denying it and feeling so guilty about it because of all the messages around us. So I had several friends that I would just, just say we're going to Planned Parenthood and I would just go with them and help them get started on birth control. And my mom was very supportive of me coming into my sexuality and she always said, you know, if you ever wanna start birth control, I'll pay for it, you can go to the doctor, I'll receive a bill, I won't ask you any questions. You can do that without me, but I hope that you feel comfortable telling me 'cause I wanna be there for you, that's what she always said to me. And so I saw my friends and just how it was so painful, they just, they really were struggling with how guilty they felt. And so I would just, I went with several of them and then I remember being in college and I mean, really my roommate was very sexual and just a beautiful woman and loved sex, but also really had this weird Christian background, super virgin whore. And I mean, the way I would just say it is I prayed for her period every month and I don't even pray, you know, 'cause I was just like, this is exhausting because using birth control also means that you're admitting that you are gonna have sex, that's planning and she can do that. So I mean, unless the boy put a condom on, you know, she wasn't, she wasn't, you know, pushing for that. And she didn't plan for it. And I had another girlfriend, she had serious boyfriend. She was in a monogamous loving relationship. And I finally dragged her to Planned Parenthood. I mean, like just, it was month after month, again, the prayers for the period. And she just kept saying, well, you know, we're just gonna stop. We've just agreed it's the wrong thing to do. And I was just like, you guys have sex, you're never gonna, you know, why stop? And she was like, well, then she said, I'm afraid my mom's gonna find my birth control pills. I was like, your mom's in Tennessee. She's several states away and you can hide these little tiny birth control pills somewhere better than your belly when you go home at Christmas. So she finally started birth control, but I felt like I had to really wear her down, you know? And it was because of the shame she felt around being a sexual person. - I recently heard about this project in Portland that your work, that you were doing just as yourself with your friends, it makes me think of there's a project for specifically black and brown folks, black indigenous and people of color, who are also queer, reaching out to every person. Like to people in their community encouraging them to get STI testing and get birth control, access to sexual health. And there was an incentive built in that for each person that you bring into healthcare, you get $25, just as a way of compensating people for being sexual health promoters in their community. Because we know that like a lot of it is about undoing that shame and stigma. And the people who are best equipped to help undo that shame and stigma are the people who are already emotionally close, trusted people in their lives. I could imagine like the Affordable Healthcare Act has money for health promoters in community. Like sexual health promotion is also a really important way to protect people's lives. Like, you know, could your pregnancy challenges have been prevented? For example, if the people who are having conversations. So, I know that, you know, as a medical professional, you're interacting with lots of different patients, with different other professionals. And you're still bringing in that knowledge of how people are going to interact with you. Can you describe some of the assumptions that people may have about why they would want to limit STI testing? Why, for example, you were standing in that waiting room and the professional there asked you to explain yourself for why you wanted STI testing as opposed to like, "Yeah, welcome, yeah." I mean, this isn't my focus medically. And so I don't have all, I don't understand all of the workings, but I know providing healthcare costs money, you know? If you're gonna have a blood draw or a urine catch, you need a tech and nurse somebody, you need a doctor to order the tests, you need somebody to input that into the computer, you need a phlebotomist or a nurse somebody, medical assistant to draw, you need somebody to then courier it to the lab, needs to be processed, it needs to be put into the computer, needs to be read that it needs to roll out to notifying the patient, that's a lot of work. And I don't wanna dismiss that, you know? That costs money. And so we're in healthcare, I do know that we're always trying to build what's the right amount of care to provide, right? You wanna provide safe care, but you also wanna provide necessary care. You know, my health insurance covers me, if I were to break my arm, I needed a cast, that's covered. However, I can't just demand to have a cast put on my arm, if my arm's not broken, right? That's unnecessary care. And so they're trying to develop these algorithms 'cause we have to keep a lid on healthcare costs. And I appreciate that. I don't know the true cost of STI testing, you know? I don't know, I know a lot of the antibiotics now have become generic, pretty affordable. I don't know the costs of prep and some of, you know, the doxy, some of the meds that are used prophylactically. I know for a long time, HIV meds were super expensive, you know, huge movements around trying to make these medications accessible, affordable. So I know that even when I went to the clinic recently and just said, hey, I might be wanting testing more often. I don't know, I don't know what is next for me, but I want a safe place that if I want to get tested, I can do this. And they're like, well, in general, like the max without symptoms or exposure. And I don't even, you know, there's different ways describing that and how you define that would be, the max would be every three months. And again, I can't speak to all the different costs, but I would believe that having an early detection, I have to believe that is cheaper than a hospitalization. Like what I went through when I was 19, being on IV antibiotics, being hospitalized is very expensive, you know? And if you can prevent those more heroic interventions, it's cheaper. But I don't know what the true algorithms are. I feel like it's not part of my wellness panel every year. You know, if I were to go in and do my annual labs, which I just did, you know, having my red blood cell count, you know, Chlamydia is not part of that panel. (laughs) And unless you ask, it's not gonna be part of it. And I really feel like I think that would be smart. But again, we have so much just shame and judgment. And I don't know. Like we already have stats on even people not in ethical non-monogamy, but the, you know, people who cheat and have sex outside of their relationship and may not tell their partner, that's an exposure. That's a potential exposure. You know, so why can't we roll this in? But I know for some people too, I know there's, it gets into ethics of people not wanting to be tested. So I'm not saying I had the answers, but it's, it is tricky. - Yeah, yeah, I think one of the things that I'm hearing is the cost calculation makes sense from a fiscal perspective, fiscal efficiency, that it is, you know, without having the exact numbers, it is likely cheaper to have preventive testing than you pay for treatment in a hospital. And also I think about like investment in healthcare is related to our values. And I think there's a long way to go for people to understand that sexual freedom supported in a way that is healthy and sustainable is part of being whole people, is part of having wellbeing and happiness, which is related to a broad understanding of health and wellbeing. - Yeah. - And so like whether or not we invest in preventive sexual healthcare also reflects our values as a country and as a population. So yeah, I think that there's lots of conversations to have about the structural changes in addition to the cultural practices and norms of doctors and nurses themselves. Also, where are we investing our money and what does that look like on a policy level? - So Madam Law, you have had a lot of experiences of this from, you know, from 19 in the hospital to today, just a couple, you know, a couple months ago trying to access care and still going through these thought processes and seeking out a friend to release challenging feelings about this experience. And I particularly think about how incredible you are as someone who is thinking about supporting girls and young women coming up into this world. So I'd like to particularly leave this episode with a love note to those young women who maybe don't have access to healthcare, maybe don't feel comfortable aren't having those conversations in their sexual health education or with their doctors or with their parents, but are trying to figure out how do I be a sexual person in this world, in this like, you know, slut-shaming world. So what would you say to young women in this position? - Oh, well, first of all, I just wanted just to say, Planned Parenthood, I love you. You know, thank you for being there. I hope that they remain an institution. I hope they remain funded. I know that I know my daughter and her friends feel safe going there and I feel like they've had good experiences there. And I really, that means a lot to me. And I know, I'm so surprised when I talk to my daughter, it really bums me out how much slut-shaming is still present. And I just want to encourage them to continue to interrogate that. And, you know, just remind young women that sexual health, you know, sexual appetite, that is a sign of health. You know, wanting to have sex is a sign of being in your body. And it's just like having an appetite that's a sign of health as well, wanting to eat food, wanting to have sex. These are healthy thoughts. And I just do my best to ask questions when I talk with my daughter and be supportive. And, you know, some of the stories that her friends have shared with me when I've been with my daughter and her friends, they're pretty upsetting. You know, there's, so I feel like there's a lot of explosion of, just so much, you know, there's a lot of social media that they have access to that I didn't. But one of the things that I think is powerful is there's information, they support each other. But I also think that this, when people start to question gender roles, and I see that with my daughter, she has friends who define themselves in lots of different ways. And I just feel like nothing is gonna break a stereotype, break down gender roles more than when people just let go of these gender roles, you know? I mean, if you truly believe that a woman doesn't need a man to have sex, then you have to believe that a woman is capable of being sexual. And my daughter and I've talked about that, you know? And I think it really does just threaten these super traditional, just upsetting patriarchal ideas of sexuality. So I see a lot of really exciting things. And again, on a bummer side, I'm really nervous about access to abortion and birth control. I know my daughter talked about turning off the period trackers. You know, I mean, just, I feel like they are living with some really scary things. But I hope they can just, I just hope they can continue to grow into their sexuality and have great experiences and talk and not consent, but enthusiastically participate, you know? I don't want consent, I want for her and her friends. I want enthusiastic participation and excitement for them. - Yes, I think that's one of the beautiful things about owning, even our sexuality, even if it's relevant or slut lives, to say that I am enthusiastically choosing this life. And I know that we shouldn't, especially as young adults, have to be the one advocating for ourselves because we should have teachers and parents and doctors who are supporting us and learning how to do this. But we don't always have that. So being able to advocate for yourself and saying, "Hell yes, I am a sexual vegan, I'm choosing this in my life, I'm being a whole person." So please help me to be healthy in doing that and having your people, like finding your tribe, like you're describing, like your daughter and her friends that are supporting each other and having these open conversations. So you can have someone who will hold your hand or answer your phone call when you need to process experiencing the stigma of trying to access this healthcare. - So Madam Law, thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences, your perspectives as a healthcare provider and as someone trying to access healthcare. And viewers, thank you for listening today. This has been another edition of a Sluts Guide to Happiness with your host Vanessa Cliff and our amazing guest today, Madam Law. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple and Spotify, as well as on VanessaCliff.com. Please help us out by liking and sharing this podcast and stay tuned for more deep dives and a beautiful, messy and fun waters. If you're over the age of 18, you can also check out our video content, female and queer-led community-driven porn on our website, VanessaCliff.com. And most of all, I invite you to join us in the pleasure of being awkwardly human, naked and without pretense. Let's get free. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (gentle music)
