Construction Brothers

Building and Maintaining a Solid Team

This week we revisit a conversation we had with DPR's Chris Bell and Will Sheane last October.

Today we welcome Chris Bell and Will Sheane, two members of the team at DPR Construction. We start with some multi-generational hard hat chat. If you’re interested, check out the helmet conversation we mention with Dr. Bottlang.

DPR and Recruiting
We ask Chris and Will to talk about how DPR is recruiting and training young workers. They talk us through the variations between states in regard to union training resources and the amount of on-the-job training that needs to be coordinated by construction companies.

Eddie asks Chris and Will to discuss specific trades where the gaps are the greatest. Chris moves on from to explain how DPR has needed to make the case to prospective workers about how a job in the trades can be a great fit for them.

Catching Their Attention
Tyler asks what employment factors have the biggest attention-getting factor with prospective employees. Chris explains that DPR pays 7 holidays and 2 or 3 weeks of PTO depending on the employee’s tenure. Eddie mentions that he didn’t see this sort of information as part of a path of career progression when he was working in the field. Tyler refers to this earlier episode with Lee Causey.

Chris explains that DPR is different from many construction companies in the sense that it handles a broad number of trades. This enables them to offer opportunities for workers to step from one trade to another as they get a sense of what might be a better fit. Tyler discusses the value of transferability that he’s experienced in his life.

The Big Picture
We discuss how rare it is that we show new employees the plans that enable them to understand the big picture of which they are a small part. Unfortunately, technology has made this a bit more difficult in some respects. Tyler and Eddie discuss their dad’s and grandpa’s experiences in that respect.

Mentorships and Open Arms
Chris explains how central mentorships have become to DPR’s recruiting efforts. “Who we build is as important as what we build.” Will chimes in with some examples of how classroom learning relate to hands-on application of knowledge.

Eddie shares some memories of the mentors that showed him how to tie, frame, and plumb. He explains that these mentorships can extend beyond construction skills to broader employability skills and life skills.

What if…
Tyler asks Chris and Will to share about what they might have been interested in doing if they could go back and do their career over again. Chris hearkens back to his work with concrete. Will echoes that idea. They both found concrete work to be enjoyable and not as stressful as some other work. Will also mentions electrical work because of the fascination with electrical theory.

Advice about Apprenticeships
Tyler asks Chris to share advice with other contractors, and Chris makes the strong business case for the ways that strong apprenticeship programs are good for the whole organization. Will mentions NCCR curriculum as a helpful resource for contractors in non-union areas. Chris mentions that these resources are available in Spanish as well as English.

Chris and Will talk through the nuts and bolts of the DPR program, including book-learning components and on-the-job training. They share a bit about the ways that quality training programs lead to word-of-mouth recruiting.

Megaphone Message

Duration:: 1h 7m
Broadcast on:: 03 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

(upbeat music) This episode is brought to you by Bluebeam. You know what software you could pry out of my cold, dead lifeless hands? What's that, Bluebeam? (laughs) It's made this simple thing simple. It was built for people in construction, so I quit asking, why doesn't this software do this? It has made the everyday easier. I am so glad that it was my idea to install the software. You are a dang liar, sir. - It wasn't my idea. - No, it was my idea to install Bluebeam first. This is a great mystery in our company, and I guess we'll never know. - I have proof, I know for a fact it was me. But guys, it doesn't have to be a mystery for you, 'cause all you gotta do is you go to Bluebeam.com/bros and you can download a free trial today, and then you've got that marker in the sand that says, guess what? I was the one that had the idea to install Bluebeam. - Now you want it. - Yeah, Bluebeam.com/bros. (light music) - Oh my gosh, it's $100 to get one of these type two hard hats. I don't know. - You won't buy them that nice thing, and you show up in your brand new Ford F-150, you know, you got the Raptor this time, guys. Like, everything's great, and I'm like, you don't think they don't see that? (rock music) (rock music) - You were looking at the hard hats. A second ago, so we got to share the story. - All right, then we're gonna grab one. - So Eddie, you wanna tell the story about the nature of the Ford hat here? So we've got some family history on these guys. - That looks wildly uncomfortable. - Yeah, but very, very uncomfortable. - Is that the one with the wiring? - No, you don't want to work for Messer? - We're kind of like the family did, that did, we have not. - So fun fact about those. So if you look over here, Will. - I'm trying to find the manufacturer date, isn't it? - Oh, the manufacturer. (laughing) - Probably, I don't know if they have them. - You're gonna see that thing being pressed directly out of tin. - Yeah, right, that's right. - Seriously. - Yeah, so there's pencil marks on the side right here. So that's where, that was great Grandpa. Used to stick his, stick his pencils all the time. It's really cool too, 'cause when he saw it, he was like, "Holy crap." I didn't say anything. - I did the same thing. - And so it was just kind of like a little family connection there, it was pretty cool. So that one's great Grandpa's and that one's pop. That's our grandfather's. - Grandpa's, I'm assuming he was right-handed because he definitely was the right user here. - Yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah, I just want to show those to you. Yeah, we've got those in the background. It's like, we're trying to fill up the set with as much like little family heirlooms as possible. We get Dad's going to bring over great Grandpa's toolbox. And we're going to be able to set some of those things out here too, which is really cool. - Yeah. - Yeah, take this off. - That's awesome. - No, stick there. It's just old. - We need to know how to do it all day. - Yeah, I know. It's so funny that that used to protect our Noggins. - Yeah. - Like there's so much more advancement now in that technology and like the wave cells. Like, so we talked to Dr. Bottling about those. And that was just really interesting. Like all the technology that goes into preventing concussions. - Right. - It's nuts, absolutely nuts. And then-- - You went away from what I wanted to go visit there. - Yeah, okay. - Go ahead. - I think I've lost it now. - Let the moment pass. - Yeah, the moment pass. - All right, I lost it. - I lost it. - If that's the case, then let's-- - Yeah. - It is a great point about the evolution of the hard head. We've actually, your construction has transitioned over to a helmet because it protects from lateral impact, stays on your head if you ever fall. - Yeah. - And so that's part of the ongoing evolution. Should we do it? - Should we do it? - Should we do it? - Well, there's a whole discussion around it. It's a debate and when that debate hit online, like the whole helmet versus-- - We had that-- - Of course it's hard head. - There's this whole discussion blew up on LinkedIn when we posted a video about it. And it was because of, in some cases, the helmets are not actually as safe as like a traditional. - What's the example of-- - Which is really interesting. - Of that, of it not being-- - Okay, so it was. - Yeah, loosely, make sure you got to type two on, is I think the long and short of it, right? - Right, yeah. - Yeah. - Not all helmets are created equally, so make sure you got to type two on. I think it's the big rule that you need to remember. - Yeah. - There was some discussion about kind of the form factor and whether because the helmet sits closer to the head, it may not actually protect you against impact to quite the same degree as the helmet or as the old school has. - Yeah, the helmet, I think in some cases, like in the type ones, they are less safe than the regular type one helmet or hard hat that we have been wearing similar to that style that we were just showing. But it actually has to do with the strap, I think, is like it kind of holds your head in place. So there's no way to protect against a rotational impact. And that's the thing that actually gives you the concussion, it's not so much the side, like 'cause that doesn't actually give you the concussion, it's the whipping action that it causes your brain to warp. - So it's fascinating, like that whole episode. - The science there. - Yeah, and so what they did is they did a bunch of drop tests and they actually put like an egg in like this brain sort of style thing and did a bunch of drop tests on it to show like what happens with a type two versus a type one, like helmets, safety helmet, regular hard hat, that sort of thing too. So moral of the story is exactly that. Just make sure it's type two. Just because it's a helmet style doesn't necessarily mean that it's better, which is, that's not mine I never knew. - Sure, yeah. - Like you get sold this idea that helmets are safer and like you just say, "Yeah, it's a helmet." Well, like flip it over, take a look at it, make sure. And I'm out on a site and I'm wondering how many people are walking around with helmets like that are type one, thinking that they are safer. - Thinking that they're safer and they're just following directions. - Yeah, and that's just marketing goner eye in a lot of ways, right? (both laughing) - Yeah, we're fortunate to have a very knowledgeable, dedicated EHS team where there's a lot of exploration went into even brands, Cask versus 3M versus several authors. And yeah, they're comfortable, they're great. - Yeah, they're really comfortable. - It's a minute to get over that not being like, that's not a construction part. - I know. - Yeah, that's funny, right? - We're gonna wear that now. - Yeah, I feel like that's mostly like the issue with it being adopted, like that style. People are like, I don't know. Like it's, we're so style conscious in the structure. (both laughing) - We knew, we're just stubborn, that's all of this. - So make a Modi green and we're like all there though. - I'm like, seriously sure. - We're gonna put a bunch of stickers on it and it's gonna look the same. - It's exactly, exactly. - I do remember, so Nathan is kind of a family name that I got, so goodbye Eddie, but I got middle name Nathan. I pass that on to my kid, right? So great grandpa that we've kind of kept their hats and everything around. It's a cool little like family lineage that we like to celebrate. And you did an opening of grandpa's tools. That was a really cool video because for all we knew, like the tools had been sealed since he died. Like the toolbox had never been open. We're talking like 74, I think. - Yeah, and it's wood too, like it's not a metal toolbox. - It's old school wood with planes and different things that it was an old carpenter's toolbox. - A crazy working toolbox. - Did you make that? - Do you know? - I think he did make his toolbox, yeah, so. - That's just another element. - We had a few of them, but that was a cool moment that we were able to capture dad opening like his grandpa's toolbox, that was fun. - Yeah, yeah. All right, so to business though, all right guys. So we're not here to just completely talk about hard hats and all that stuff today, but more what you guys are doing in the recruiting space, like what you're trying to do within DPR to bring new foreman online specifically, right? That's kind of the focus is foreman. - Well, all craft, I'd say, yeah. - All craft. - All the apprentice, carpenter, journeyman, foreman. - Yeah, yeah. So what sorts of things do you guys have going right now to try to help recruit? Let's start there. - Sure. - Then we can dive into the details of like how that's going, like some of the challenges and whatnot. - Sure, I mean, not just to start, there's the obvious sort of recruiting trail where you're marketing construction and DPR and things like that to folks that are in high school or community colleges or even younger middle school to get excited about the trades. There's a little bit of that just marketing blitz, but specifically what we're trying to do in order to create a pipeline is through our apprenticeship program. - Yeah. - And giving folks that are new to the trade, the opportunity to learn and not have to just be thrown out on a job site to their own devices, but have some organized, structured learning to be able to learn a skill to last a lifetime. - Yeah, that's awesome. - So Will, you're out in California. So and you're in Florida. - Florida. - You guys are kind of like in tandem together on this effort, right? - Yeah, we're, I guess meeting in the middle on it. - Meeting in the middle. (laughing) - So what do you guys have going out in California? Like, is there any differences? Are you guys just running the same sort of program out there? What's that look like for you? - That's a great question. In California, we're fortunate to have the unions, specifically the Carberters Union provide a lot of the training. And so what we at DPR offer is a way to, for non-union folks, to get those same opportunities. And that's really the focus of the apprenticeship program. And so there's a little bit less of a presence in somewhere like California, where the unions are strong and more of a presence, let's say in Florida or in the regions of the Southeast, where we can step in and provide some of those opportunities. - So unions do a pretty good job of providing training in comparison to like say a non-union state. Like it seems that way. - Absolutely. I think in areas where there aren't strong unions, there is a void. And so we're trying to fill a void. But even more than that, kind of just level up our own skills and the way of leading and organizing crews and just leading on a job site versus simply the hard skills of framing a wall or building forms or wiring a switch box or something like that. - It seems really interesting to me that unions are really leading the charge on a lot of the training stuff. And I'm like, who really benefits most from it? It's really the contractors that benefit the most from a lot of these training efforts. I mean, outside looking in, that's what I would think. I think it's funny that the unions are the ones that just are like, yeah, no, we need to train people. Like they're the ones that are leading the charge on this. - That is one of their primary functions, correct me, if I'm wrong. - Sure. - Maybe I'm just not that educated on unions. I readily will admit that I'm not as educated on unions as I should be. (laughing) - Well, you're just out here. - Right, so it hasn't been more of a normal part of like your dealings and what your construction life was. You go up into different regions though and it does change a good bit. - Yeah. - Curious on like the, obviously you solve a problem, you're trying to address the problem. So tell us about the problem, like, you know, set this up. Everybody knows we've got a workforce gap that we're trying to cover is the gap more pronounced in some places than others, like say welders or electricians. How are you seeing that from the standpoint of being a large employer that needs that workforce gap closed? - Sure. I think the workforce gap is more pronounced in different trades. You know, maybe carpentry skills more so than maybe electricians, but we're kind of shades of gray and split in hairs. I mean, there's a workforce shortage across all trades. And so you're right. What's the company like DPR doing about it? And it needs to start with a little bit of, Will and I were talking about this before of what's the value proposition for somebody who's not in construction to want to come into construction? You've got work sites that are exposed to the elements. There's stuff that can kill you on job sites, that can be stressful. Okay, those are the negatives, but what are the positives? What are the things that will attract folks to want to come into the trades? And that's where we've got to lean. That's where we've got to really lead even by, hey, listen, you work with your hands. You like building stuff. You like creating, you like forming. Hey, this is a spot for you. And oh, by the way, we're going to make working conditions good as well. We're going to bring that value proposition forward so that you've got a reason to want to come work in the trades. It reminds me of our conversation with Lee and how that was a lot of what he was trying to address is get feedback from the field to improve conditions in the field. What do you feel in, what stinks, what can we improve? And sometimes it was simple things. Yeah, we'll link that one in the show notes. I think that was a great episode to talk about how innovation and just getting out into the field will help you innovate more effectively. Like, I feel like people skip that step for some reason. It's hilarious. - Well, if you're 17 or 18, you're coming up high school and you're looking at the landscape and thinking, what should I get into, right? You might look at the local pigly wiggly and you okay, they've got air conditioning. Okay, I get in in the morning and I know I have to stack seven pallets worth of cans, right? Things are pretty cut and dry. If you look at construction, it might be a little bit more intimidating. And so I think it's really important that we as an industry start looking at how we make it attractive and how we make it a place where people wake up in the morning and wanna go to work. - What are the things that you guys are seeing? Like, when you talk about this, it gets the most like ears to perk up. Like, what are those things that are attracting people the most? Like, is it pay? Is it like, what's that look like? Working with your hands? - Sure, I mean, pay, we have to provide a livable wage. People have to earn a living. So, pay is important. And certainly, you know, if some other industry or even company is paying more, that's gonna be a driver. But a lot of the things that folks perk up about nowadays, especially the younger generation, are things like holiday pay and PTO and being able to like have time off from working. That's no secret. Construction can take a toll on your body a little bit. We wanna change that where it doesn't take as much of a toll on your body, but providing rest is a big deal. And folks, they care about that. They care about not just their pay, but how much time off, how much time can I spend with my family? How much time do I have for vacation, travel, downtime? - What sorts of PTO are you guys advertising? Like, what are you saying? Like, oh, you get this many days off. If you're like, what does that look like? - Yeah, we pay seven holidays and we pay two or three weeks PTO, depending on your tenure. - Okay. - And that's pretty standard with what the union said bargain for as well. So it's pretty standard across the board that way. - Yeah. That's a side of field work that I can say I never saw. And then to a certain degree, you've made it look more like a job and less like a career. - You know, and so-- - I mean, you never saw like you never saw a break. - I never saw when I'm in the field actually working a path of progression. Like, I couldn't look up and say, my career will progress if I stay here. I figured I've got to jump off of this ladder and go get on a new one. And had I had a path of progression that included time off and increases in pay and I kind of understood the level up, what things I needed to do. You know, in mind working with my hands, I might've needed to know that, you know, I wasn't going to be, you know, doing the really awful things for the rest of my career that I could capitulate into something where I was actually, you know, doing the form work or whatever the next thing was. So that to me, it creates a path of progression. It helps somebody to understand, no, this can be, this can be-- - This episode was brought to you by QuickPace. - Ty, you know what I'm the world's worst at? Other than literally everything. - Spreadsheets. - Yeah. - I make them for everything. - You do. It's your crotch, man. - They are tools and I like them a whole lot, but they're not very customizable and you don't share them very well a lot of times. That's where I'm learning about QuickPace is really cool. You can take material tracking, personal management, equipment maintenance, bidding, estimates, and what's best about it is that much like a spreadsheet, only better, you can actually customize the app. And you do that to make it how you want to see it. - And you can share it out with people. You don't have to just sit on your machine somewhere in isolation where nobody can get to it. And that's my main beef with your spreadsheets there. - Yeah, and then you're not chasing spreadsheets around, you're actually getting more work done. - And guess what? I hear that even a moron like you can build an app in QuickPace. - Thanks. - And it integrates with apps that you're already using. Things like Procore, for example, which I hear a lot of people are using now. So guys, don't be like Eddie. Go to QuickPace.com and start your 30-day free trial today. - Something you're gonna work at for a long time. - And, you know, it shows just decent human beings. (laughing) - Yeah, exactly. - This is not just for the office people. - Decency goes a long way. - Decency goes a long way. - Vacation's not only for the people that work in the office. - Right, for the trailer. Piggyback in a little bit, what you're saying and what Will was talking about was intimidating. It can be intimidating if you don't see that career progression. And so then it's like, well, am I just gonna, you know, frame a wall or, you know, run plumbing for 30 years? Maybe, yes, if that's what you wanna do. But there's all these other options as well that provide a pathway for your career that can be a little mandering, but ultimately is what you wanna make it versus it being decided for you ahead of time. - Yeah. What are you guys doing to, I guess kind of give them next steps? Like, have you guys built any sort of like systems? And like I said, all right, so if you come in here and you work here for this long, then you can go to this next step, kind of like show them that path of progression. Is that stuff that you're working towards? - Yeah, that's a great question. Recently we started to establish competencies. So within each role, there's a set of benchmarks that you can hit to achieve mastery in that role. And it's not saying that, okay, once you're a great journeyman, you will be promoted for men. There's a different set of skills for each of that. But you can look at the competencies and see what that role might entail, what the day-to-day duties might kind of look like based on those competencies. So it's not a direct career ladder for per se because there's a lot of different directions you can go in. - Right. - From, let's say a journeyman, depending on your aspirations, but there's certainly that piece that you can look at and kind of peer behind the curtain and see kind of what that role might look like. - Yeah, I think to something that's maybe a little bit different about DPRs, we self-perform a number of trades. And so it's maybe more akin to even sort of factory work where you might be doing carpentry, but we have a waterproofing group that puts air barrier and cox or whatever. You can learn another skill, move to another trade and keep going. That also is part of the career progression and the next steps you're talking about. Being able to give folks options even within trades rather than just being potentially stuck to one. - That's where I like this a whole lot better for, like I have to relate to this to certain degree with my kids, like, what am I gonna tell them? How am I gonna counsel them? We're talking about our teenagers earlier. It's like, am I gonna coach them up and say, yeah, I think you should do this. And if they're paying $15, $18 an hour, 'cause I mean, there are jobs now that you're going, you're making that flipping hamburgers. (laughing) It's not that that's not a skill, but the things that we're gaining through an apprenticeship program, you got some real skill that you can use and those can be taken and reapplied elsewhere. Now I have a skill that can be taken from here and I can go from carpentry, maybe to the waterproofing group and I've got skills that will translate now. Because it's amazing, once you start to learn how to build how a lot of things that we do, they're similar, you start understanding how things go together, how to function on a team. - I can show how I put a day in. - Like I can speak to this completely, 'cause like that was my path, was going through more of an apprenticeship style thing here with the family business. And now it's funny, like, I mean, I mean, filmmaking, essentially, like for construction and that's awesome, but like every single day, something that I learned as a detailer translates to me in this new career. And so it's like getting kids into a skill, even though they don't, if they don't stay for a long time, dude, like this is a valuable thing to have, just in life, like it can teach you so much. I feel like we're gonna be making more well-rounded individuals if we can teach them like heck, electrical for crying out loud, welding, like, you're gonna be able to translate those skills somewhere else. - Right, right, very beneficial. - And a big part of the apprenticeship program too, is being able to read construction drawings, blueprints, right. And with that skill unlocks a lot of doors. And it allows you to look at the bigger picture of the project and understand the why. Why things are sequenced in a certain way. And once you start looking at it like that, I think that's what really unlocks a lot of doors. And allows you to be a great builder. - You know, it's funny is that like, how often do we bring a new person out on site and immediately teach them how to read drawings? I don't feel like that happens as much as you want, right? I feel like they're just like, yeah, go here, put that door in or, you know, go frame this, go, you know, sweep, but they're not shown the full picture. - And it used to be where you could take a set of plans home and study it and start looking at it in your spare time. Now, a lot of that has gone to iPads. So a little bit more difficult to pull that home and pull that up. - Yeah, I mean, there are software solutions out there that are making that a little easier at the same time. Like, yeah, like you got to know what you're making, man. Like that helps you put in the effort. Like if you know that you're building like truest park or something, like the brave stadium up here in Atlanta, like that makes my life a little cooler. Like, yeah, I'm helping to do this. It makes you a little bit more proud about like what you get to do every day. - Reminds me. - Well, dad and pop, you know, dad went out and started as a laborer. But, you know, pop, he had the wherewithal to grab a set of plans. And he's like, yeah, I mean, you're gonna be a laborer on these sites, but here's a set of plans. You're gonna learn about what you're building. So he put that set of plans and he said, you go and study that and you get to learn this job. And so, I mean, that's some foresight there. It was really cool that dad was given that by his dad, that he was able to just have that set of plans. And all of a sudden, there was an overarching context for the project. But once we learned the skill, now I can translate that in where it went from, you know, laborer to layout person to, you know, coming up through and finally landing in the office. But now I've got a context for the field too that helped me in the office. - And sometimes it's not always about moving to a different position, to moving to layout, let's say. Maybe it's just about really understanding the ins and outs of your particular role and being badass at that, right? And beyond that, it's also about understanding the why. And I think when you start looking at why we're doing this, what the bigger plan is, I think anyone's gonna get a lot more job satisfaction rather than just thinking, I show up, I turn a bolt and that's what I do. - Yeah, yeah. That was a, I know for me, I remember when dad started teaching me how to read drawings, I was any at Judy's house. I remember that, we were like sitting on the floor and I remember him just like laying out some drawings and he was showing me, like, he probably does not remember this, but I remember like first time he was like, yeah, that's a beam, that's what this is. And he starts like showing me what he's doing, what he's doing in the basement when he's an ogre. And 'cause at the time, ABSI was just in the basement. And I don't know, for me, it was, that was a moment where I was like, actually, you know, that's kinda cool. Like, it's cool, like these lines can like turn into something like huge, like a building, you know, like a national infantry museum, you know, like something like that, that's amazing, so freaking cool. - Little paint by numbers for each phase of the project. - Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. But that to me kind of like ties into the mentorship. I know that's something that we've experienced firsthand from our family, right? Are you guys trying to develop mentors in this too? Is that a thought? Like, how are you guys approaching that? - For sure, that's a huge component. I mean, construction has a lot of hands-on learning. We wanna supplement that a little bit with some, you know, some book learning, classroom learning, but a lot of it's hands-on in order to learn appropriately, hands-on, you have to have them enter. - Yeah. - And you have to have somebody that will take a little bit of time to show you, you know, maybe a better way to do what you're doing or to answer questions when you have them. That's so important in our industry. And I think that's cool too, because you can be, like Will was saying, a badass journey, man. And also a teacher. And that's pretty cool to be able to combine sort of those aspects. And maybe there's some satisfaction, not only about a building, but building others. We have Stang at DPR, who we build is as important as what we build. - Yeah. - And that ties directly into mentorship. It's an important piece, not only of apprenticeship, but of any kind of career journey in the trades. And I think, to Chris's point, any great learning opportunity has two pieces. The knowledge piece and the application piece. And the knowledge piece is great for, in the classroom, looking at a textbook, understanding maybe the properties of concrete, right? Compression versus tensile strength, things like that. And then going out in the field and being able to actually apply that. This is why we put rebar in concrete to reinforce it. - Yeah. - Kind of that idea. And that knowledge piece is great, but it needs to be put into practice to become muscle memory. And that happens on the job site, on those. - That seems to be an area we're struggling as an industry. It's like that, the application piece, right? Like we can go into the classroom, and get all the knowledge in the world, but it's the application of it too. And I think we're seeing that a lot with PMs, where they come out of the classroom, they've got all this knowledge on how to run a job. Quote unquote, knowledge on how to run a job. But they don't have that real world experience of like, yeah, but here's what it's actually like to tie rebar all day. Here's what it's actually like to pour concrete, put in doors. And I feel like that breeds some understanding for even the trades too. So it's like at a PM level, I would think that this is like, even if you start here, this would be beneficial for you. - Yeah, I think the sawdust pile has to be just as thick, if not thicker than any books that go into that program. - That's a good prerequisite, I get down with that. (laughing) - No, you're right about sort of classroom learning and how that applies to PMs and have project managers that come out of school into the industry, do they have hands on learning? But if they don't, fine, you're on the job now, get some. - Yeah. - And that's an opportunity there to break down some barriers where a journeyman can teach a project manager their craft, their trade. And that just, that breaks down barriers, creates a learning culture on the job site. It can be powerful that way. - I still remember guys that were mentors for me in the field, like I still remember Randy, I still remember Henry, I still remember Frederick. Like I remember those guys that were out there with me and showing me how to tie, you know, showing me how to frame, showing me how to plumb. And like those, it's funny when you're young how formative and how impressionable you really are. And the apprenticeship program is a great opportunity to invest in a life. And I don't want to overlook that. Like you're taking the time and you're teaching them something, you're teaching them a trade, you're teaching them a skill, but you're also, you're helping them understand life a little better. They don't learn how to grow up. They learn how to work. - Right, work with others. - Yeah, and that might be new. They might not have done that at 18 years old, 19 years old. So that's a, you're building a life and that's pretty cool. - Yeah, these younger kids, they don't have their brains fully developed yet. Like really, like they don't. And yeah, you're able to come in there and shape and have like, when I started, my brain wasn't fully developed. I think it might have just stopped maybe a month ago. Actually, no, I think it's still gone. (laughing) But, you know, that's the, yeah, like you helped build a life. I mean, that's the case with me and the apprenticeship is like, yeah, I mean, I may not still be in like the day to day building side of things. But it did help build me to this place. Like it did build my, like, I built, like my whole career has been built on a foundation of construction, full stop. And like, I have so much to be thankful for in that regard. So I don't know, for me, whenever I talk about this sort of thing, I'm like trying to encourage other kids to like go out there and just learn a skill. Like just do something, just try it. 'Cause you'll be able to, you'll be able to weave your way. You'll be able to figure it out. There are people that were, they're going to invest in you. You know, they're going to invest in you. I want to ask you guys, like for the young person. 'Cause I hope people get a hold of this show and say, here, you know, I want to pass this around. You're kind of thinking about what you could do with your life. You know, you're looking out at the world. And like, is the construction community there with open arms? - Absolutely. - Absolutely. - I want to ask that and just let you guys riff. 'Cause I mean, that's what I feel like we can get passionate about you. - Well, the construction industry wants the best of the best. We want folks that want to learn. We want folks that are eager. But just as much, we need folks that want to work. And that's a reality. But you talk about open arms, absolutely. I think construction is a people business first. It's all about people and how people interact and come together to build something, you know, long lasting and that they can be proud of. And so there's an investment that the industry and certainly DPRs is making into people. But it's a people business. And so that's what we need. And we're there with open arms for sure. - Yeah. - And when you're young, I think what you lack is experience, right? And construction is great 'cause you come in and you're getting experience really quick. Sometimes I can feel overwhelming 'cause the learning curve is high. But at DPR, I think with the apprenticeship program, we're helping, we're saying we're there to support. And here's the knowledge that you will need on the job site. I think it's a great opportunity for young folks to come into this industry right now because there are so few people making their way in. And so many people that are leaving the trades. I don't think there's a better time than now for folks to look at construction because there's so many opportunities available to them. What kind of equipment are these guys nerding out about? Like the guys girls that are coming in and they've printed program, like, what kind of things? I remember the first time I got like a car heart shirt to work in. (laughing) Yeah, company logo on it. I was like, thank you guys make free stuff. This is amazing. Like what kind of stuff are like just from the standpoint of tools or equipment or different things? Like kind of things are they getting excited about having for the first time. - It's funny you mentioned car heart because we do have some really cool car heart back packs. - Yeah. - In that, what's that? That traditional car heart color. - Kind of brown. - Kind of brown, yeah. - No, did you have one too? - I do. - You have one today, yeah. - I do. - I love it. - And we had an introductory at core class. Last week in Nashville, where we typically hand those out first week. Well, for whatever reason, I think we're low on supply. And there was a lot of feedback about not getting that back. (laughing) So that's definitely a hot item. - Everybody likes some good swag. - Yeah, swag. - 'Cause you're getting some tools and I remember getting a trailer to run around in or a company truck to be in. So, I mean, it was a crappy truck. But I was like, I get to run around somebody else's ride for a little while and it was an upgrade for me. So I don't care. - Yeah. Power tools are always fun. You know, you get the skill saw or you get the screw gun and you get to work with those. You know, power tools are certainly a hit, I think. Now, we've got in our framing group, our drywall and framing group, you know, we do structural framing. And so you're using a lot of power actuated guns. I mean, they're guns. You know, they fire off. I see apprentices get some smiles on her, but they get to learn how to use those for the first time. Yeah. - Yeah, that's a little 22 most of that. - Yeah, that's a little 22 most of that. - Yeah, that's a little 22 most of that. - Yeah, that's a little 22 most of that. - Yeah, that's fun. - Yeah, you just got to stop them from shooting their sprite can. - Right. - That's the big thing. (laughing) - It's monster energy. - It's monster energy. - Yeah, monsters are liquid death, I think, yeah. Oh my gosh. So I have a curious for you guys. Like what, you see all these different career paths now? I know from my experience, I'll look back and I'll be like, do you know who'd been fun to do that instead or like pick up that skill? Like what are you guys saying that you're like, man, if I could go back, I might, I might, I might oughta do that. Like I might be a welder or something like that. Do you guys have anything like that? - I don't know. - Or you're like, oh, there's a lot of money there. I should've gone there. (laughing) - You talk about money. There is a practicality to coming into the trades. You can go to a college and nothing against colleges, but you know, you may graduate with $100,000 in debt. You come into the trades, you join, you know, specifically DPR in our apprenticeship program and you're making money a day one and you have no debt. So that affords you pretty good opportunity to maybe get ahead in life, start saving a little earlier and work your way up. But to say to do it all over again, I came up in a little bit in concrete. I did some residential concrete when I was younger. And I just remember that was fun and low stress and compared to, you know, what I do now. And so if I'm making decisions, you know, for a younger Chris Bell, it's hey, that was fun and that was low stress. Maybe you should have stuck with that for a little longer, you know. (laughing) - I bet you will, anything? - Yeah, I came up in concrete as well and looking back, it was a ton of fun. I remember thinking that calling the electrical field electric-ery because it was completely mystical to me. What happened there? As I've grown up and start to understand a little bit more, it's really fascinating, I think, some of the electrical theory behind it and a lot of the, just everything that goes on with that. And I would have liked to dig in and understand a bit more when I was younger, but I think it was a little bit scary. - Dude, we got a bunch of concrete dudes around the table. - I know. - 'Cause like, you came up in concrete, you came up like everybody here except for me. - It's a readily available job. - Detail like. (laughing) - It's readily available. - Yes. - Low barrier entry. - Low barrier entry. - Yeah. That was exactly what I needed when I was getting out of college and trying to make sure that I had an income and getting rid of anything, you know, rimmed that debt and everything. - Yeah. - Like, oh, I can get that job, I'm ready to do that. - Yeah. - That's what my cousins did. And one day they said, hey, we need a guy to come out and help with demolition before we can pour. It was a driveway, actually. And I said, sure, I'll be there and it's stuck. - Timo's a great thing. Like, Timo can be really fun. Now it can be grueling and it can be dangerous. - Dangerous, yeah. - But it could also be a ton of fun, just tearing things up. It's also quite the education. 'Cause you tear a building apart, like you're deconstructing and you're getting to find out what's behind the wall, like how they frame that up. So that was, it was actually quite a learning experience to just be on a demo crew for summers with that. 'Cause that was kind of where it all started. - Sure. There's a big difference between a four inch slab and then ribbon out a six inch slab. - Yeah. - And you learn that the hard way. - I remember when, you know, we came in with the jackhammer, the normal, and it was like an electric jackhammer and we're trying to beat the floor up and remove the slab with it. And we went heavy equipment pretty quickly in the bathroom, so. And also just, you know, knowing what the work environment can feel like when that piece of equipment is rattling the ground you're standing on and even with ear protection and white, quite loud. So. - I just, I have fond memories of demoing a bathroom and Larry Chandler, if you're watching this. - Yeah, I remember this, dude. I remember this. Gave me a cold chisel and just said, all right, have fun. Cold chisel and a hammer. And I'm just sitting in there and I'm just beating on tile. Just trying to get tired. It was a master bedroom. Like really ritzy house. Like tile everywhere. Tile freakin' everywhere. And he's just like, yeah, good demo. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like 14 at the time. - Oops. - Yeah. He was yelling that secretly laughing at you from behind like two-way glass or something. - Oh yeah, a thousand percent. He's over there taking phone calls on his Bluetooth. Like, uh-huh, yeah, sure. Bring the kid with the young bag. Have fun. Call you. Yeah, that taught me really quick. - I got a demo can be fun, but man, when that happens, if you don't have like the power tool to get it done, oh God, it's the worst, oh, it's so bad. - The tricks of the trade, right? You learn that there's an easier way to do it and then you're like, why did I do it the hard way for so long? It's called renting the tool that you needed in most cases. I remember, I got it had a little bit, like first day I was on site, and I've talked about this, but it's like 98 degrees in the foreman. He sends me over to go scrape the slab because it like rained and, yeah, poor slab, it rains and, you know, get some of the impurities and different things that rise to the surface, we're gonna chip that off. Like it didn't, like we were backfilling over this, it was a footing and he totally just sent me over there 'cause he didn't want to deal with me. So he was like, grab a scraper kid, go over there and scrape the slab. So for four hours of my first day, I scraped a slab for no reason whatsoever. - He got what was coming to him though, did me? Is he the guy that stepped out on some rebar? - No, no, no, no, that's a different guy. - Oh, a different guy, that's a crungy story. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - He had to hop down on a rebar, piece of rebar. (laughing) - Got a little bit skewered. Yeah, anyway. - Yeah. - Sorry guys for the graphic nature of this podcast. - Yeah, that worked. (laughing) - Well, all right, so we've talked about like your apprenticeship program and stuff. I want to help other contractors though, like let's give them some advice like from what you guys have seen, right? Other contractors listen to this and I feel like the only way we're gonna fix this whole labor problem, like bringing people in, teaching them a skill is like gonna be banding together, right, it's gonna be together. - Yes. - Yeah. What are some pieces of advice that you would give to other contractors for starting something like this up? Like what is the first step that they could take that would help them get an apprenticeship program moving? - I think what DPR is doing is really changing the industry by looking at labor not as a cost driver and something to tamp down, but as a sales driver, right? We're a technical builder and we need technically skilled people in order to perform that work by giving them training opportunities and career opportunities. We're scaling our people up and that is allowing us to be better at what we do. So there's a strong business case for it and I think that's important to understand that yes, this is a great opportunity to provide folks. - Yeah. - And there is an altruistic side to it, but there's also a really strong business case for it. The stronger, more skilled your people are, the more you'll benefit from that too as an employer. - You get practical for a minute. You get through the business case and you choose to invest in your employees. Our apprenticeship program is in conjunction with NCCER who's a nationally accredited group that has curriculum. They have a lot of training modules, whether it be carpentry or electrical work or welding and the list goes on. If you don't know where to start, then you're in a non-union area, an area that doesn't already have training going on. NCCER is a great place to start just practically to start with some curriculum and be something that's regimented to be able to kind of work through to give training to your employees. - So I'm not educated on this. So they like put together a full curriculum for every, like that you can just pull off the shelf and use. - Yeah, and just a reminder, for me anyway, I remind myself curriculum is just a fancy word, basically for textbook. And so that's what they have. They have these books for each level. Like if you look at carpentry, they'll have levels one through four and they match up with U.S. Department of Labor standards as far as hours and training goes to meet those requirements. So you can pull that book and look through them. They've got modules, you know, usually starts with safety as it should and then progresses and gets hard until you hit level four in carpentry. And that would be before you become a journeyman. There's Concrete Drywall, which typically was part of the carpentry umbrella, but you can break those out as well. And even within that, just use certain modules. If you want to task, train, or provide a bit more specific of instruction. - Let's get to know that you're not going to have to reinvent the whole wheel. - Right. - Like put together an entire curriculum, just yourself for this stuff. I know that was something that we had to do a lot in detailing, is like we had a full manual on like, hey, here's how to be a detailer, because we couldn't find it and we had to reinvent it, but for contractors at least, it seems like that's pretty available, at least from a skilled trade, it's perspective. - I think it's changing. If you're right, maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago, there wouldn't been any of this stuff, but there's enough industry material out there now that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Now, of course, leadership and kind of leading a crew, that takes a different set of skills. - Right. - But there's training, materials are already available for that within our industry as well, and you can take that and kind of tweak it to how, how you see fit for your own firm, for the types of folks you have, maybe the places that you need to lean in a little bit more, is it communication skills, or is it like, actual planning skills? But there's enough industry material out there, particularly through the NCCER, that you don't have to start from square one on your own. And the nice thing, a lot of our craft folks are Spanish speakers, and NCCER offers a lot of translations, these titles too. - Oh, that's good. - So we can offer folks those resources in Spanish if necessary. - Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely a pool, especially down here, in the South, we see a lot of Spanish-speaking skilled trades, people, and so that's good to know as well. I think one thing I would piggyback off of too, that seems obvious as a first step too, would be find somebody who's a champion within your organization. Yeah, like for you guys, that's what you are. You're champions within your organization for this sort of thing. And I think a lot of times people don't just, they don't find somebody who's really passionate about it already, and they just kind of make it a sweeping declaration, but nothing actually gets done. Find somebody that can be the boots on the ground, and have the conversations, try to put together these things like you guys have. - For sure, you have to have a champion, and we hear a lot in our industry, and certainly in our company, a lot of folks that are older in their tenure, they say, "Hey, I want to get my learning back to others." - Yeah. - Okay. - We're gonna do that. We're gonna take you out of producing in the field, and we're gonna put you in a position where you're producing the next generation of builders. And you have to make that investment, and I think there are more folks out there than we realize. We just have to pinpoint that, assign a champion, make that investment, and go. - Yeah. Investing like that can be, it may be hard to kick off. How long has DPR been doing this program, and then what kind of fruits are you seeing? - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's a good question. I think in terms of a structured apprenticeship program that we sponsor, it's been a few years, but in terms of training in general for our craft individuals, whether that's form and training, or other skills of learning for journeymen in the field, we've been doing that as long as we've been a company. But to get more structured and formal about it, to be able to market that to the next generation, coming into construction, we're on year four, I think. - Correct. - Correct. We're expecting our first batch of graduates, actually, in early 2024. - Yeah, I was gonna say, and then what's that pipeline look like? Like how many, we were talking a little bit before the show, but how many do you have in that pipeline for apprenticeship and other? - So there's a couple of components to any apprenticeship program. There's a RTI or related technical instruction, which happens in the classroom, and there's exams that folks have to pass with the score of 70 or greater to be able to move on to the next module. There's also a OJT portion, which is on the job training, right? And that's usually about 2,000 hours per year. So once those two requirements are met, then typically they'll be a graduate of the apprenticeship program. That can vary a lot from individual, right? Based on their hours that year, based on their ability to master the content in the classroom. So there are some variables within that. - I think you said you had 130. - 132 roughly, how much? - Yeah, 132. - Yeah. - I mean, that's no small crop of new talent coming in. - Well, you think of the ripple that that could have in the compounding interest, that a group of 130 could have on a community, right? Like, 'cause I would assume 130 people probably have siblings, cousins, whatever, that are looking for their path too. And so if that 130 goes out and it starts recruiting, that next gen that comes through the pipeline, it's gonna grow itself, theoretically, if it's good. And I don't know, I like to think that there's some organic growth that could happen through just word of mouth. And hopefully that happens. - I mean, for sure, word of mouth is a good way to spread what is going on. But when you create a program and you have 132 individuals and some graduate or eventually all 132 graduate, well, that means we need 132 more to come and fill those seats. And to your point about compounding, now those graduates are into the workforce and they're spreading the word. And so 132 seats are available. That could be 263, it grows from there. And it's not just that we wanna create, call it this flywheel effect, that's certainly a piece of it. But it's more to show the growth and maturity folks, they wanna know they've got some stability. They wanna know they've got something that has some staying power. And as that continues, the reputation, the credibility, the availability just grows. - Yeah, I think we saw that with like Angie Simon, how it compounded, like she was doing the heavy metal summer camp. And she did it that first year. I can't remember exactly what it was. Like maybe 30, maybe 50 kids that came out to it. It was literally just a summer camp. And now it's well over like 500. And it's year three maybe, maybe like maybe three, but it's compounded, it's just just blown up. And it's the word of mouth, man, it's so cool. So I would, I say all that to kind of encourage people that like, okay, even if your first class isn't like massive, say it's 10, this is a long-term play that you need to make. Like this isn't something that you can just do one year and drop the next. Like you need to continually invest in this for the next 20 years in order to really see it grow and flourish. I feel like a lot of times people just give up on it because it's like, oh, we didn't really have that much demand, so you gotta stick with it, right? Yeah, and not to be a contrarian by any means, but there are definitely some long-term benefits that when they graduate, when they start spreading the gospel of good habits on their job site. But even in the short-term, by investing in folks, you're creating a lot of buy-in, a lot of engagement. People are saying, not only am I showing up and doing something but DPR construction or XYZ construction is showing up and doing something for me every day too, to better my career. And that feeling that you get from being part of something bigger than just yourself, that recognition, I think, is huge and makes people show up every day when they put that tool belt on, they're ready to work. Their mind is there, their focus, their present. And they're ready to give you their best. So I think there are short-term gains to it as well as long-term gains, which is really the beauty of it. Yeah, well, I mean, and they're working while they're being educated. That's right. So that's awesome too, because yeah, I mean, they may not be where they're going to be in three years, but we've got a lot of starters and we've already started to fill in some of the holes that we needed to fill in with workforce. Like we are bringing people in, starting to train them, starting to learn things. Yeah, starting to move up in their skill levels, but they're here now and they're making an impact. And that step one is informing people that it's an available opportunity, which is, you know, why I liked the episode today. I think this is an opportunity for people to say, "Hey, this is out there." Can I get on my soapbox for just a second? You're probably going to do it either way. I'm probably going to do it either way. But now this is something that I've seen like more recently, like I developed out this idea for, and sorry, this is going to be a little bit self-serving, just forewarning. I'll put a dollar in the jar, guys. (laughing) But I developed out this like strategy for trying to attract people to contractors, right? So like creating content for specific reasons and then drawing them in. I would go and pitch that and I've pitched it to multiple people. That shall remain nameless. But it's amazing what happens when the money conversation happens. They get little T-rex arms. And they're like, "Ugh, nope, can't do it." Like it's, but the whole time they're talking about how they need to invest in like developing new ways to attract people into the industry. They're saying all of these things, but they're not actually following through with it in their actions and with their finances. Like I don't care if you spend money with me. I really don't care. It's just the fact that we're not trying it. We're not actually putting the financial but behind making things happen. And so when I see things like this, it's like, I appreciate it. It's like, you're actually trying. You're actually trying to do something 'cause I see a lot of contractors out there that they're just, they go into the, you know, I'm gonna call it, they get into the whambulance, you know? Wow, wow. And they start talking about how there's nobody to work anymore and like there's nobody out there that wants to, you know, get off their phones and wah, wah, wah. But they're not actually investing in it, man. Like they're not actually doing things. And it's just an irritant for me right now. So I'm sorry. There's my soapbox. So don't let that be you in other words, right? Like if you're listening, just don't let that be you. Please, please, I beg of you. - It may take some financial capital. - It will. - You're the right. And so you have to commit to that. But the returns are there. There's study after study, you know, not just in the construction industry, but in all industries where if your employees are happy, they're more productive and more efficient. You may not see that on day one. And so there is a return for that investment. It's not just altruistic as much as it seems that way. Yes, it's about bettering folks, but there's also, as Will said before, there's a business case to be made. There's a return. So there's some financial capital there, but I agree with what you said about the contractors, we can get into a Whamulence. And I think that's why we have to spur change. We can't just rely on the way we've always done it and say, well, these folks don't want to work anymore. And so therefore, you know, everything's going in the tanker. And it's like, no, we've got to change and adapt to what the workforce is and what they want. - Yeah. - And we have to be able to discern that, but then also commit the time to it. - Yeah. - You talk about working conditions or you talk about just the availability of training or the ability to grow your career. Okay, those are maybe more apparent things to change. But, you know, why is the workforce maybe not wanting to work? Is it because we're treating black crap on the job site and yelling at them all the time? - Yeah. - You know, is it because it's just poor to John's instead of a real toilet to the bathroom to go in? Is it because they've got an opportunity down the road at a much better place that provides opportunity for advancement and learning? Okay, let's like really look into those things and make change. If we don't, it's going to pass us by and we're going to be left in the depths. - Well, I mean, I've seen it down to people complaining about the cost of some of these new hard hats to protect people. It's like, oh my gosh, it's $100 to get one of these type two hard hats. I don't know, I don't know, and they freak out about it. And, you know, they get a little T-Rex arms, they won't reach out and actually buy the thing. And I'm like, guys, your team sees that. Your team sees you being a little bit cheap. And then you won't buy them that nice thing and you show up in your brand new Ford F-150, you know, you got the Raptor this time, guys. Like everything's great. And I'm like, you don't think they don't see that? Like it comes back a lot of it. And again, I'm just kind of being a dead horse here. In a lot of ways, it's just like put your money where your mouth is, guys. Like you say you care actually, just like invest in your people. Like, and it's as simple as buying them one of the new hard hats, you know? Show them that you care. Legitimately show them that you care. And maybe that means you're driving last year's truck. And that's okay. That's fine. I'd be there for you people. And I think that's a big issue that I have with a lot of conferences too. And like you go and you hear a lot about all the things that we're struggling with, that you never hear any solutions. Like you hear a bunch of people getting on the way ambulance talking about how everything's horrible, but nothing ever changes. And so I just, for me, I'm like, I want people to come out of this saying like what am I gonna like actually do? Like what am I physically gonna go do? What am I gonna deploy my capital at to try to fix this problem? 'Cause that's the only way it changes. The only way it changes is by us putting our money where our mouth is and trying to actually find new ways of doing things. You know, find better ways of doing an apprenticeship program. You know, like deploying it into advertising or supporting other little things. Like that's what it's gonna take. And it's not something we've had to do in the past. 'Cause it's been easier to find people. They've just come. (laughs) - Yeah, I was reading just this week that I think it was in Washington that several projects only had two bids on them or one bid even. And some of them they couldn't move forward on because there weren't enough bids from contractors. Part of that, I think the article stated that there's a shortage of labor. So a lot of people can't forecast that they'll have the manpower to be able to complete those projects. Whoever can solve this current problem of labor shortage of, you know, maybe a lack of skills, there's a lot of, I think, rewards at the end of that rainbow, you know. And so I think it's a worthwhile venture to look at how we can help give folks in the trade and how we can help scale them up. And yeah, we might have to open our pocketbooks. But I think that that will pay dividends long-term. - Oh yeah. There's a bit of a mindset shift. I think that we're talking about around the industry, you know, and that mindset shift is around how we view our people, specifically how we view our labor. And there's a lot of contractors that do well with it, but pervasively across the industry, we look at our labor component as a commodity. It's a component of our estimate or our budget. And we don't look at it as people. We look at it more as a commodity. And so there's a little bit of a mindset shift that we're talking here around how we view our labor, how we view the skills and the trades and how we invest in those skills and trades. And if we shift that mindset as an industry, then we're gonna be in a much better place around how to solve it. Maybe second point to that, we do a really great job in our industry at looking at problems and what's wrong and how to fix it. Even this labor shortage we're talking about or upscaling our craft worker skills as a problem. And I'm gonna steal a little bit of a line from our safety leader at DPR. If we were more curious about what's going right and why, if we were spending an equal amount of time on investigating where it's going well and how to replicate as we do on what the problems are and how to fix them, I think we'd find ourselves in a different spot as an industry too, not too short of time. - That's a good one, I like that. All right, guys. Well, I think we've come to our megaphone question, right? Let's buckle up, all right? It's our favorite question. So if we gave you a megaphone and around, all right, since there are two, you were splitting this up, 30 seconds. You get 30 seconds, all right? - Cool, I thought you were gonna say 15. - So I'll take 30, 30 seconds, all right? Be tight, all right? What would you wanna say to the construction industry? What would you wanna leave with? - Well, let me first say by, I've never understood a full sentence, spoken through a megaphone. So if you can switch that into maybe a podcast, I'm on board. - That's fair, that's fair. Not a podcast, thank you. All right, do it. Do you wanna kick it off with another megaphone? (laughing) - Laughing at his own joke. Greg, myself up. - Those are the best ones, honestly. - Yeah. (laughing) - I think I'd like to change the way we as an industry look at mistakes. And instead of it being, oh man, that's gonna be costly, that's rework, that's, what are you thinking, dude? Come on. Instead of that looking at, hey, this is a great learning opportunity, right? And I think that changes. If people feel comfortable, like it's okay to make a mistake, an honest mistake, then people come to work and with the idea that they're gonna learn something too. It's also, we can get away from that old school mentality of getting yelled at and people feeling tense when they don't know it's something exactly. And so I would really like, if we could all maybe commit to looking at things that happen on the job site that might go sideways and saying, okay, how can we all learn from this? - Yep. - That's not 30 seconds. - Nah, bro, that was 50. Anyway, all right, Chris, what's good. (laughing) - That's good stuff. - If one thing to say to the industry, I think I'd be, I wanna talk directly to the craft professionals out there, the men and women that are physically building every day, be proud, that river base that you're putting in the hallway about hospital, that's a facility that's gonna save somebody's life. The faucet that you're hooking up in the hotel bathroom is a hotel that a family maybe saved up for for three years to go enjoy and have some time off. The things you're doing are making a difference. It's building our society, building our world. So be proud. - Thank you. - That's good stuff, guys. Well, Chris, Will, thanks for joining us this week, y'all. Thanks for coming all the way out here. - Absolutely, thanks guys, it was fun. - Thank you for having us. - Flying from California, holy crap. (laughing) - This episode is brought to you by Bluebeam. You know what software you could pry out of my cold, dead lifeless hands? What's that? Bluebeam. (laughing) It's made the simple things simple. It was built for people in construction, so I quit asking, why doesn't this software do this? It has made the everyday easier. I am so glad that it was my idea to install the software. - You are a dang liar, sir. - It was my idea. No, it was my idea to install Bluebeam first. This is a great mystery in our company, and I guess we'll never know. - I have proof, I know for a fact it was me. But, guys, it doesn't have to be a mystery for you, 'cause all you gotta do is go to Bluebeam.com/bros and you can download a free trial today. And then you've got that marker in the sand that says, guess what? I was the one that had the idea to install Bluebeam. - No you weren't. - Bluebeam.com/bros. (gentle music) [MUSIC]