Joe what's up George? Can I guess you loved the scene where our hero in shaves her head? Not really But you just love military movies where you see shaved heads. I do and I don't mind it on Timmy more So what's the problem? She shaves her own head so so if you try shave your own head I have that leaves us some uneven cutting let me tell you so you're Objecting to the lack of realism damn straight. Also, who is this broad to deny a barber his livelihood? I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point. I think is an example of light-stage capitalism How is somebody shaving their own head in a military training facility an example of late-stage capitalism? Well, it's problematic problematic. Okay boomer. What are you doing? I don't know I was recently on tiktok and picked up some terms I wanted to use you had to go to tiktok to learn the term Okay, boomer. I don't learn the terms. I just like to use them. I'm like a college student that way Are you making some kind of point here? Not really. I just needed something to do for a cold open. Oh Oh, good job. Thanks Welcome to does this still work the pod gasics and always an ask does this still work? I'm Joe Dickson and I'm George Romaka and today we're discussing G.I. Jane from 1997 and some historical context first podcasty stuff You can reach us at dtsw pod at gmail.com on Facebook letterbox to and our YouTube channel Joe is on blue sky at joe Dickson.bsky.social Please tell your friends about us even the ones who can't stand the sweet stench of cigars and leave five star ratings everywhere You can pick what we watch and get extra per episode content by funding us on patreon for as little as a dollar a month at patreon.com/dtsw pod now Joe take us back to 1997 And this is the way it was We are recording this in 2024 and there are no female Navy sales So from the time this picture came out in 1997 to the present day We've never had a woman join the seals from what I read a woman has passed the training But she never became a seal for some reason so that in mind all my stories involving sales from 1987 are strictly G.I. Joe additions Gotcha. I do apologize and let's start here stolen valor is an American term user describes someone who falsely claims to be a veteran or active duty member of the armed services There are men and women out there who like to root out folks who pull that stunt George read this headline for the San Diego reader Daryl Young roots out seal imposters the ethics of outing fake military heroes So the piece comes up with this guy Daryl Young out of a man named Daniel Meyer President of a Vietnam veterans of America chapter in Missouri for being a fake Navy still during the Vietnam War I will quote from the article young went to check Meyer on his buds Basic underwater demolition slash seal database I want to fight people in America who have a buds database of everybody that ever graduated from training class one to present day Which is class 2013 every time a training class graduates I get a complete update of the names Servce numbers hometowns where these boys are from that graduated it only took about a minute Young found out there was no Dan Meyer in class 68. That's a class He was supposed to have gone to end quote young confronts Meyer and the result is Meyer having to step down from his position at VVA to be clear Meyer was really a Vietnam vet He served aboard the USS Ticana Roga He just wasn't a seal when Daryl Young has asked why he felt the need to expose Meyer He is quoted as saying name so those were the most highly decorated unit to serve Vietnam We've got three medal of honor winners three Navy crosses 50 silver stars 400 bronze stars it just happened that way it started with 78 people in my training class only 15 graduate Five of us went to seal team the other 10 went to u dt Underwater demolition teams. That's how serious this is after you make it through the training. You create a bun a camaraderie I'm worried about my 46 fellow seals who died in combat in Vietnam. We'll never see them again Their families suffered today because of the loss of their loved one back then their wives their kids And is just not right for a man to run around claiming he was a Navy cell when in fact He wasn't George as a man who fought for this nation. Are you troubled by people who engage in stolen valor? I'm not a fan of anybody misrepresenting who they are just as a general rule So yeah, assholes who like I don't I don't feel like personally slighted that they're Pretending to be military because I I don't put much stock in it myself that I did that But no, you shouldn't do that anyway. You shouldn't lie about who the hell you are or what you've done just in general That makes sense And what's weird about this guy is that he did serve why not just talk about your service there's no need to right say you were a seal It's all shame in it you rarely this guy was a pipe fitter, but you know, that's a legitimate thing to do in a military I guess I don't know what a pipe fitter is, but I guess you assume you fit pipes, right? Is that the yeah mechanic of sorts? Yeah, so what's wrong with that? Okay, let's move on our next story is from the Virginia pilot It's pretty much told in the headline. Go ahead George pressure sucked Navy seal out of a plane Report concludes chief petty officer Theodore Moreland died after falling onto the tarmac the air Cref commander opened the forward cargo door prematurely the pressure against the door when it opened was roughly 3,000 pounds You're supposed to be pressure the playing before opening the door, but the captain in charge failed to do so This result in a moorland a 33 year old father and husband be pushed out onto the tarmac where he suffered massive head injuries and Died the following day. He was attached to seal team two and little crig naval and footage base at the time of the accident More than was serving as a jump master a jump master is a paratrooper and an airborne unit who teaches military techniques for jumping from airplanes The article matches that the captain will messed up Michael W. Brown might face some sanction for this But I couldn't find out if he did or not now in this movie the way training is presented Especially during that PLW war game somebody would get killed for sure George off the top of your head Do you know what happens in the military when you accidentally kill another person? I assume you don't get whipped like in Starship troopers well Joe to answer your question We can go directly to uniform code of military justice. Okay, because article 119 of the UCMJ is manslaughter and under clause B It's defined as any person subject to this chapter who without an intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm Unlawfully kills a human being by culpable negligence or while perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate an offense other than those named in clause four Section nine one eight of this article section one one eight They're actually affecting the person is guilty of involuntary manslaughter She'll be punished as a court martial made direct. So you'd go to court Marshall Hmm if they decided to press charges Yeah, and that could result in prison time or if you're in a war time it could result in death Hmm Did any accidents resulted in anyone during your time you serving nope everybody who died on my ship killed themselves? Mmm. That's right. You told me this. It's something the one guy. Well, he was only a ship I guess the one guy was like visiting his girlfriend. He said he was dry. Oh, that was when I was in power school Yeah, he died because of black ice on the road. Mmm, but no instructor accidentally killed anybody or captain nope Well, that's good. Okay, George. Tell us about GI. Oh, wait. Wait. Wait. Did anyone simulate trying to rape one of their recruits? No, that didn't I mean there was the time where somebody put a rose in Mikey's butt crack, but We're not gonna talk about that That was a sexual assault. That was just a little gift That's what you can call it sure a little friend-ization fun among the boys. Okay, George. Tell us about GI Jane. Oh Okay This was directed by Ridley Scott for the show. We've seen his work in Delment in Louise blade runner American gangster and alien and I've seen his work in the Martian the last duel and all the money in the world. This was written by Danielle Alexandra and David Tui Tui Tui who's work We saw in for the show in the fugitive and I've seen in water world and the chronicles of Riddick Blurbs IMDB says lieutenant Jordan a US Navy topographic analyst joins the US Navy special warfare group and struggles to prove Her worth in a unit dominated by men, but a cynical woman, Texas senator has sold her out. Thanks for giving that away Yeah, spoiler Amazon says Jordan O'Neill is the first woman ever given the opportunity to earn a place in the elite Navy seals But the already brutal rigors of training camp turn into an unimaginable test of determination Once it becomes clear that no one wants her to succeed. I mean waxing poetic on it, but sure Yeah, I think that works better than the IMDB one So we get opening credits and they fly over of Washington DC set to some properly militaristic actiony music with title cards and some kind of console like serif typeface for some fucking reason Then we go to the Senate confirmation hearing for aspiring secretary of the Navy Theodore Hayes He reads his prepared statements focusing on gender equality senator Lillian Dehaven it takes this with a grain of salt until she decides She can't take it anymore The last few years have brought real progress in the interests of women and all aspects of naval service What's more the Navy has instituted special sensitivity courses for all its mail recruits Demonstrating even more progress in the area Whoa, whoa, whoa mr. Hayes if a cannibal used a knife and fork, would you call that progress, too? Yeah, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha why is that funny good question Joe If a candle use a knife a fuck would that be progress? I don't see a reason why a cannibal wouldn't already be using a knife and fork It's useful for cutting up meat even if it's from a human body. Yeah, Canada doesn't have something to do with your cutlery. I mean Why don't you think you just eat with your hands or your catable or something you can use a knife and fork what how to let your Obviously did Theodore Hayes is played by Daniel van bargain whom I've seen in shaft the 2000 version a selection and six degrees of separation both George and I have seen him in basic instinct broken arrow and the sound of the lambs And I've seen him in rising sun and crimson tide Lillian the heaven is played by and Handcroft who we've seen in the graduate the best thing in the graduate. Don't let anyone tell you different Mm-hmm, and I've seen her in torts on trilogy lipstick and the president of second Avenue And I've heard her voice work in ants with a Z and we all know who her husband is right or well She's she's deceased now, but I don't remember Joe. Oh, Mel Brooks. Oh, yeah. She's mrs. Mel Brooks What a weird combination In particular, she is disturbed by the lark report of which Hayes was an author This was an internal naval investigation into the crash of an F-14 Tomcat by its female pilot The report includes commentary from other aviators about things like her sexual activity the weekend before the crash Dehaven asserts that no downed pilot has ever been treated as badly and withholds her confirmation After the hearing Dehaven's chief of staff gets a call from the Department of Defense to set up a private meeting between Hayes and the senator The chief of service played by John Michael Higgins This is a sophomore film and we've seen him in the man who wasn't there for the podcast And I've seen him in licorice pizza a million ways to die in the West wag the dog and a few good men And I've seen him in bicentennial man and walk hard the Dewey Cox story Is that the play on words walk hard and these Dewey Cox? I don't know I don't know what the wordplay would be there Joe. Well Cox says and you know dick hard isn't you know dick In that meeting the do just ignore me go ahead In that meeting the DoD offers a trade if the Haven will confirm Hayes The Navy will institute a pilot program aimed at fully integrating women into the Navy within three years What a weird thing Oh, we just need to probe the sector that then we'll do it as opposed to like 50% of the population we do not have here Wait, we should open up our our branch a little more progressively And as de Haven points out 25% of the jobs in the Navy weren't open to that 50% of the population Yeah, that's ridiculous They deliver the news to Hayes and decide to start this integration program with the Navy Seals Believing that no woman could possibly make it through that training Senator de Haven works with her staff to select a proper first woman to go through seal training She nixes two bodybuilders in favor of lieutenant O'Neill Because she'd look better on a magazine cover. There is a level of casual homophobia. That just goes all through this picture Just nobody even thinks about wow this kind of sounds homophobic doesn't it they weren't thinking about that They didn't care if it did or not. This was the era of don't ask don't tell Which was and we both lived through 1997. You should you think people look not fake people did try class it up a bit They didn't just go you know The homophobia that existed was basically of the friends variety. It was like Man in a dress and he may be transitioning to war As opposed to the sort of like oh, we can't have this woman. She's too ugly. She's too masculine. Yep Why which we did do why I have met but And I just I Don't know what my point is never mind I just thought it was like god damn people honestly talk about sensitivity training. You really all need it Mm-hmm now we go to the Naval Intelligence Center where a topographic analyst Lieutenant Jordan O'Neill convinces her superiors to allow a seal team time to reach a place where they can maintain their current satellite connection rather than Switching to a different network and losing them She correctly predicts their route and is vindicated even though that's not really her job her boyfriend lieutenant commander Royce no last name Gives her a minor dressing down Jordan and Leo's played by Timmy Moore who we've seen for the show in ghost and empty proposal and I know from deconstructing Harry Well, technically I also know her from general hospital, but we won't get into that Okay, and Royce is played by Jason Beige who we've seen in the pockets in Thelma Louise and I've seen in the X files They movie and X-Men first class so all the movies I've seen with this man besides this one has have an X in it Yep, too many wasn't in Malcolm X would have been perfect. Yep. He would have had a trifecta He gets his comeuppance when the secretary of the Navy calls for O'Neill She's ordered to go meet with Senator de Haven who informs her that she's been chosen to be the first woman to go through seal training O'Neill has doubts and they talk about O'Neill being turned down for submarine service in the Gulf War because No bathrooms for women existed on board. Did that piss you off? Yes, ma'am, it did good. I like pissed off That'll come back to bite her in the ass And then right about that the cuz you told me there were no what what year was it finally when they finally 2010 2010 before women Got to use bathrooms with supper rates like what the fuck yep at home We joined her and her boyfriend in a bathtub in media res talking about her new assignment I'd love to know how that happened. What do you mean how they got home and into the bathtub before starting this conversation Well, we both know why or how it happened cuz the script says so yep O'Neill doesn't want to be a poster child for women's rights Royce thinks she'll get eaten alive and doesn't understand why she wants to do this I did get a mild giggle out of her telling him get your dick back in She met the tub Yeah, you can assure you that this film also was concerned about it not being as a poster child for women's rights It has one really good moment that it doesn't do enough with and we'll get there Okay, but I definitely have the feeling with this film like even though we have a woman joining them Sorry the Navy seals They were just some things in it gave me the but it's not a feminist movie. Don't worry. Don't worry so I don't know what the original script looked like and this movie did not qualify to get assistance from the military in making it however Ridley Scott sought that assistance and So the DoD made a bunch of changes to the script some not all but some of those changes made it into the movie Even though they didn't get the help from the military. Hmm. Do you know what several changes were? I don't remember. Okay, O'Neill reports to her commanding officer Captain Salem for seal training He tells her to report to him directly and immediately if she suffers any kind of harassment or discrimination based on her gender He undermines this underlines this not sure what he was trying to do by telling her She doesn't need to get a haircut and that she will have her own barracks and bathroom and as she'll point out later. That is Discriminatory in a sense Well, it's definitely different treatment although other than the haircut of course you should have wrong barracks and bathroom That I don't think it's so outrageous. I'm not here to make some kind of statement All I care about is completing the training and getting operational experience just like everyone else I suspect if you were like everyone else lieutenant I Suspect we wouldn't be making statements about not making statements Would we ooh burn Seal Salem is played by Scott Wilson who we've seen for the show in in the heat of the night And I've also seen in dead man walking and I've seen in Judge dread Pearl Harbor and the last samurai When I was in college the last year or so they had co-ed bathrooms And I've seen that sense so I guess maybe you could have a co-ed bathroom But I don't think women should have their separate space Especially if you're only the one woman as opposed to being the pin in the barracks with a bunch of dudes I just seems unwise to me sure, but that actually will get there. Okay. We'll get to that happening So as soon as she walks into the chow hall, there are whistles remarks and this fucking guy Look, I don't know what you did to get in here I hate to speculate, but I know I petitioned for two years to get into this program That's two years of letter writing two years of pulling strings And now I finally get here and it's gone co-ed that asshole's name is stem Some guy named Slavnik says some more gross shit before squadmate wickwire tells them to stow it And by the way if he pulled strings then who was he to be judging her for being in the program? I mean, right say pulling strings sounds like you didn't get in officially you had to do yeah thing. Uh-huh The wheels somehow. Yeah. Yeah, our end clip will speak to this a little bit just because I found it amusing Stamm is played by Stephen Ramsey. No relation that I'm aware of to Gordon Ramsey. Huh? This was his sophomore role, and I've seen him in minority report Slavnik is played by Jim Cavisel who I've seen in my own private Idaho And I've seen in Wyatt Earp The rock pay it forward and the count of Monte Cristo So neither of us have seen him in his most famous movie as Jesus Christ. Nope. We saw the other Jesus movie Wickwires played by Boyd Kessner, and this was his junior credit. Come morning. They muster and meet their drill instructors They also meet their command master chief master chief John James Ergale who is described by TV tropes as a type four T villain, which is a villain in name only. I don't know about that Name only I don't know. I kind of phone his behavior villainist to be honest. He recites poetry. I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself A bird will fall frozen dead from a bow Without ever Having felt sorry for itself Ladies and gentlemen the worst accent I was gonna say like cuz Well, I'll talk about him after we introduce him real quick. That's it. That's new master chief James John Ergale is played by Vigo Mortensen whom I've seen in green book and a history of violence and I've seen in the Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the ring the Lord of the Rings the two towers in the Lord of the Rings the return of the king as Aragorn son of Arathon Air to the throne of fucking gondor. Okay. I've also seen him in crimson tide But here's the thing that fucking accent though, right like I've heard it be Aragorn and He sounded fucking fantastic I'm like a lot of times we see actors and There are there's same they're basically the same character in everything they play He is such a different character in this movie than he was in Lord of the Rings where I know him from the most That it was a bit jarring to recognize that it was him. I was gonna say I didn't recognize him either He looks completely different. Of course, he's younger also But not by much for Lord of the Rings cuz they yeah that one a couple years after and that mustache. Oh my god It's a fucking porn stash. Yeah Although he really rocks those shorts He does he's got a fantastic body Why why do all the trainees have short shorts? It's fucking hot out. I guess but none of the the the recruits don't have to go get to wear dress like that The crew recruits aren't supposed to be comfortable. Oh, that's true when Sam Snickers at the poetry Master Chief goes full metal jacket levels of silly and how he describes his own relationship to these trainees And flow of the Atlantic tides the drift of the continents The very position of the Sun along it's ecliptic Just a few of the things I control in my world. I'm pretty sure that's more poetry mmm now that I think about it Rather than full metal jacket even so to quote that that particular phrase of things that he can't possibly control As what he controls like that's level That's I am your god now levels of silly. Yeah, also if you remember when we first were first introduced to him It's a slow motion for some reason why I didn't understand why that was happening I didn't work in a slow motion, so we could see that pornstations slow motion now we get into the training sequences These are brutal tasks like crew carrying rafts to and from the water and rolling ship bumpers up things like hills A statistic is cited that 60% of people who went through seal training quit before it's over and the Master Chief assures the trainees that day one will not End without somebody quitting because until somebody quits he doesn't end that day when it's time for chow Somehow for some reason the recruits fight each other to get access to the food that they have to shove down their faces Throw into a trash can and they get back out to training immediately. Yeah, that was weird Like a lot of the strikes me is less training the more just hey, let's humiliate you Yeah, I mean but I can also see a point in it like if you're seals you might have to Scroung for things you might have to eat trash out of a trash can if you're staying, you know Like there's it there might be some training utility in it, but also fuck no You just do that when the time comes you don't have there's some things you don't actually have to prepare for at night They are looked over by the base doctor Lieutenant Blondell Blondell is played by Lucinda Jenny who we've seen for the show and film and Louise and the hangover And I've seen him leaving Las Vegas. Have we seen the hangover for the show? Yeah, I said that no I know you said it. Oh you're asking we've seen no. Yeah, we talked about the land. Oh, yeah, we did do the hangover You don't remember I don't remember we had Darren on for that movie. Hmm. I don't remember that fucking movie at all All right, we identify another trainee here. McCool is the black one And it'll come up a little later And of course his name is McCool because he's the black one. Yep. It's very Irish name for a black guy McCool is played by Morse Chestnut who I've seen and the best man the 1999 movie Not the one from the 60s that Gore Vidal wrote gotcha then it's time for Chow again Chow in this case being eating whatever they threw into the garbage cans from the last chow out of those garbage cans again This just feels like humiliation to me This is still the first day and it is still going Master Chief tells them about their DOR bell if they ring the bell three times they get dropped on request out of the program So if I only ring it twice, I don't I guess so It's like just hit the bell one time like oh no I'm not going anywhere. I just want to hear the bell the recruits are left there holding rafts full of water over their heads Until Stan the loudmouth asshole who'd spent so long trying to get into this program and who is so upset that it was now Co-ed is the first to DOR Exhausted they are left in a room with the heat turned up and an ARIA playing on a stormy night to write 500 words on why they love the US Navy while the Master Chief gets a haircut now. What was the point of that torture? You never consider becoming a seal, right? No, I was I was already a nuke. I was already the best That's what they told us they told us we were the top 3% of the Navy I don't know what the measure there was but we were the top 3% of something because you had dealt with nuclear stuff Yep, then they have to crawl through mud under barbed wire while there's gunfire and explosions all around them as part of a war zone obstacle course O'Neill objects to having a female only step stool to help climb a wall, but it's told to stuff it when she gets there She lets her team use her as a step stool only to be denied a hand up by squadmate Sergeant Cortez Cortez is played by David Vadim who I've seen in Air Force one O'Neill ends up setting off a trip wire and is the last to finish the course in the morning only the most failing scores are announced and Those who got them are made to run the course again Cortez is sent to do that too because Master Chief saw his betrayal of O'Neill and says he needs to learn teamwork a bunch of people do are here O'Neill questions why she wasn't in the failing group and is told that she gets an automatic gender-norming - 30 seconds to her time and she Hates that I don't even know what that even means. What's gender-norming? It's trying to account for gender It's saying because she's a woman she gets 30 seconds taken off of her time because she's a woman and shouldn't be expected to run in as fast as men But if it's gender-norming, what do they do into it just for the guys? They're not female-norming. They're not exactly joke as men are the default. This is why it's a problem This is why she hates it She hates it so much that she goes to her CEO as he asked her to to complain about it They go back and forth for a bit before they get to the actual fucking point One standard just treat me the same. No better. No worse You're gonna get everything you won't O'Neill Let's just see if you want what you're gonna get That conversation at first I don't know why he's being such a dick. She she said hey come here If there's a problem she comes to him on a problem and he goes like hey, hey, yeah You come to the end of the problem. Well fine I'll get rid of any of that gender stuff and let's see how you make it just with these men and maybe pits her in that Well, we're gonna get to that big picture in the barracks. I think it's right But that's what she wants I literally asking for that that I don't care what she's asking for There's no way of putting one female crew in a bunk with a bunch of men not even remotely not a chance She doesn't like it. She can go playing complain to the center. I'm not taking that chance I know men She goes from there to the base barbershop and there's nobody there So she just grabbed some clippers and shaves her own fucking head much to choose dismay I am dismayed then she reports to the same barracks All the guys are in and lays in an open rack before her eyes can even close the drill instructors come in and drop a couple of Flashbang grenades and start firing blanks screaming at everybody to get up and get dressed Slavnik starts making a huge deal about the fact that there are tampons in their barracks at all See they're concerned for very different reasons than you Joe What's the point of my like maybe there isn't anything thing wrong with having a separate bathroom But although I guess you just have tampons in the men's Out of gender neutral thing what I do do either general normal bathrooms I've used but you know you have to make some adjustments for the women because women biologically are different well Master Chief comes in tells their squad leader wickwire to make out a schedule that rotates head and shower use Because of what you just talked about. Mm-hmm. Although they could have full shout together like a stuck trip But again, I wouldn't suggest no Mm-hmm. They get out and start their training again while a photographer with a telephoto lens takes pictures at a hobnobbing party back in DC The Secretary of the Navy gets made aware of these photos as they are being printed in newspapers Royces there and somehow gets his ass tasked with providing weekly reports to the Secretary of the Navy on the progress of his girlfriend's training And he never back to them. I have a personal relationship with this woman. He's like oh sure. Oh, I'll follow along That is a slight conflict of interest. Yes, the next day Senator de Haven calls Captain St. Lem to ream him out about the photos He can't really stop them without trampling on the photographers civil liberties, which he's got a point and also it's her fucking photographer, so spoiler alert Yeah, they make well I will guess it get into if it's some reason they make her out to be some sort of villain which doesn't really make any sense Because initially it seems like the Secretary of the Army or Navy or whatever the Secretary she needed to confirm it was like it's Navy She he seemed like he was gonna be the villain, but he sort of disappears into the background She's a politician and gets played as a politician. I guess I just think it would work better either She's not there or she's not the bad guy doesn't just make any sense to me mm-hmm back in training O'Neill is being water boarded as they all will be to teach them what it's like to drown so they can improve their odds of resisting torture This is followed by a proper training montage with music and everything I remember doing the Iraq war maybe I'm gonna go for there was a big thing about war to boarding Mm-hmm. People really this this was the war on terror because we were doing we were doing that to Guantanamo detainees. You're right. You're right. It was the war on terror. You absolutely right in any case I know soldiers and sometimes they didn't report to see what it was like war to boarding, but I wouldn't I I looked up Maybe still training and I didn't see any waterboarding and the thing I find curious about this everything from the garbage eating to the abuse to the Waterboarding is like okay You're just only training these guys body and their mind where the bodies may be developed But the minds would seem like this is how if someone's pouring water down my nose whether it's my friend or it's you know Terrorist the physically it's still gonna affect me the same and emotionally except in the same I should at least have someone to talk to about this. No psychiatry. What's whoever? Involved in any of this nope at a medical checkup lieutenant Blondell asks O'Neill why she's doing this O'Neill fires back and asks do you ask the guys that question to? Blondell says she does and they say they want to blow shit up O'Neill says well That's good enough for her while practicing being rescued from the water O'Neill doesn't quite make it into the rescue boat when Cortez mouths off about it Master Chief kicks the rest of the crew back into the water and leaves them there there out in the water is where McCool's blackness Comes in I had a grandfather one to be a Navy me They wanted to find him big guns off them big ass battleships Navy says to them now You know you do one thing on a battleship That's cooked Now I'm not talking about a hundred years ago. Yes, I'm talking United States Navy Middle of World War II you know the reason they gave me The reason why they told my grandfather he's getting fight for his country Because Negroes can't see it Bad night vision Damn, man. Cool. That's unbelievable. Thank God times of James Habra So you still new I know where you're coming from cuz of them you just a new nigga on the block I saw maybe just more than little too early If there is anything to say about a black man equating his grandfather's racial struggles with the gender struggles of a white woman I'm not the one who knows it I I mean clearly McCool is only there just for that speech In that that is the entirety of his purpose is to equate his grandfather's racial struggles with the gender struggles of this white woman The sad part is and look I'm maybe I'm speaking out of turn here But the sad part is I think guys like this would identify with the other dudes and not what the woman And equated with a racial struggle. You're going. Oh, you're on your own, baby Oh, I even make some sort of sexist comment to a rat more that I mean, I don't know maybe that's unfair But that's I think that might be a little bit unfair But that's that's that's where my head goes like what did I really identify with her? I don't know. I don't either Joe. I don't eat. I find that men tend to be really shitty when it comes to women Men can be pretty fucking awful and that's the one thing they can bond on is their hatred of women in their spaces in the gays That's the one thing these guys they all made politically Disagree on stuff, but when it comes to women a's they all agree But that's maybe unfair to be cool in that category. No, he's obviously one of the not one of those black people Yes in the showers master chief tries to make a point to o' kneel about women in combat having to do with a navy cross-metal He got for hauling a 240 pound man out of a tank But she doesn't really want to hear it He makes her squad leader because wickwire went out with a stress fracture and she's the senior officer in the group How inappropriate is it for him the all of the fucking inappropriate Joe all of it one hundred percent of all of the inappropriate however, I believe That the character of Jordan O'neil would have done exactly what this actress did in that situation in that scene I think the character would have been like I am not gonna make a big deal about me being naked because I want to be One of the guys and they wouldn't make a big deal about being naked either In his case, I don't think this film eroticizes her body But also, I think she's the only one who has a nude scene or a body double Whoever that we only see the backside when I was to see this did me more his face or not And we never see her breasts, but I thought that was like We could probably done without that agreed Secretary of the Navy and DOD brass are beside themselves that O'neil has lasted eight whole fucking weeks They tell Royce to get more information into his reports about her past history and allegations She's made etc. He thinks they're building a case against her because they're building a case against her Uh-huh as he's dismissed They start going over the names of military bases that they can close in order to tank Senator de Haven's chances at re-election in six months Why it's never really explain why these guys are so emotionally involved in not having that woman in there Why would they even care? What what what exactly do they think it's gonna have there's no ideology behind anybody in this thing? Everyone's pretty much you can't tell who's a Republican was a Democrat whose left is right just the whole Nothing, they're all pieces of shit. Yeah. Yeah, so but they never articulate Oh, we can't because you know, Jesus says men and women can't be the guy I mean there's no reason given other than we don't want her to succeed. Yep So Royce and O'neil have a phone call and he tries to warn her about all this political maneuvering But she doesn't really need to know that and sees it as him trying to dissuade her from finishing Which just makes her want to finish more which is her Soul-defining characteristic is that the more you don't want her to do something the more she's gonna want to do it Mm-hmm. She's also really good tactically like she's got she's a good analyst for Topography and tactics and stuff. So it's not her only thing, but it's her her predominant Personality characteristic is you don't want me to I'm gonna do it harder. Hmm. Yeah, we really don't get into who she is Everyone's very superficial throughout this entire film. Just basically yep. They're all basically versions of the McCool He's the black guy. This is the asshole guy. This is the lieutenant who was supposed to think it's complex But I really don't he's like every other I guess he's not a lieutenant Whatever he is the master chief whatever. He's like every other asshole. We see in these movies He's like he's yelling at them, but he's also some sort of father figure to them Mm-hmm. Why did you bond with your And when you were in basic training did you you like oh he became like a sub to father for you or something That seems to be all these films seems apply these guys will come no I I had Great respect for my drill instructors by the end of it I was grateful to them for teaching me things that I needed to know and for helping me get into better shape But I didn't think they were father figures, but they were leaders and I looked up to them and none of them were always abusive as these films, right? No, I remember you know talking to them about that and being like aren't you guys supposed to be like screaming at us and breaking us down And shit and they're like we don't have time to do that. We need to turn you into sailors And you can't turn a broken person into a sailor Which brings it back to some of the trainers feeling like this would break people and I don't just mean they break them in they would quit I mean emotionally this even if they pass the program How's he hung you not fucked up mm-hmm now it is time for their S-E-R-E or survival evasion resistance and escape training They dropped from helicopter someplace they haven't been before They have a time frame and five square miles to search for a facility that they are to gather intelligence about before withdrawing for extraction They will be penalized for early extraction, but penalized more if they are captured Penalized taking on a slightly different meeting at some point. Mmm. O'Neill is doing a good job as squad leader and they find the facility Slavnik and Cortez are still assholes and against her orders go and try and take a souvenir This results in the entire team getting captured confined tortured and interrogated and we're getting to the part where I have the most Difficult tape with the picture yep Master Chief is doing some of this himself and beats up a shackled O'Neill the same way he would beat up the guys Proportedly except for when he makes like he's about to rape her. Yeah, not good I'm also are you allowed to beat up people just because the training exercise for Christ's sake I mean, I'm in the world of this movie. Yes, you are She had butts been to face breaking his nose and kicks his ass while still shackled before he finally knocks her out During the fight her team is about to crack and give up whatever information they have But she tells them to stop Master Chief tells her team that he's trying to save her life and theirs by getting her to quit because having a woman on the team Makes them vulnerable That galvanizes the team Why good question Joe? Why does this like suck my I mean I get her like hey, I'm not broken here I'm so fighting I get that but why did it have to be suck my dick? I mean it made me smile. I I was amused by it because yeah, she's a girl. She doesn't have a dick How can how can he suck her dick? It's hilarious. Also, I I really generally hope that if you Simulate or even apply you're gonna rape somebody that gets you court Cuz that does not seem like training me. Oh well this could really happen and what it can happen to the guys to men get raped Yeah, he's not simulating it with the dude Well one of the drill instructors agrees with you on that and for a moment this film gets Bizarrely correct not not politically just correct. What's that a line in there? It ain't gonna happen again Let me know with you these guys With me She's not the problem We are This movie could have done with them staying there for a minute and letting Master She have explained that men are the problem, but it doesn't and the way to think about him knowing the minute The problem how does this behave like an asshole make men any less the problem if he knows consciously that men are a problem You should then behave better that like what I could maybe see is He's trying to get her to quit because he knows that men are the problem and men are controlling everything and 99% of the military everywhere is men and That way At least she won't be putting her into that world where somebody is going to do He is certain somebody's going to do something like that to her or like I don't know Joe The mr. Scripps said so it's the moral equivalent of I have to hit you to save you Yeah, for your own good on smacking you around like yeah, no With O'Neill making it through her SCRE training and Department of Defense threatening closed bases Dehaven tells her she's of staff to set up a meeting at the commissary Blendell invites O'Neill to a beach barbecue with some of the other ladies from the base Then at a bar she and her team have drinks and celebrate and even Slavnik and Cortez are now, you know all good Hm afterwards O'Neill goes to that beach party where a photographer takes photos of her existing in the presence of other women That does seem to me the issue She's friendizing with other females, you know what that means mm-hmm soon after She gets summoned to the CEO's office And this was during the don't-ass don't-tell era and the implication here is that she's a lesbian because of those pictures She's so upset by this and the Navy not having her back that she do ours Mm-hmm now if it's implied be gay if you're hanging out with a bunch of women and you're a woman How come it's not an apply that you're gay if you hang out a bunch of dudes and you're a dude good fucking question Joe I mean by the logic of what they're suggesting of her all those dudes are gay and that bear all of the time And every recruit that has ever gone through seal training is a flaming homosexual 100% I mean you have to be right you'd have to be hanging out with all those dudes Especially starting with those COs with all those tight tight shorts. I mean come on. Yeah Back at home with Royce he shows her the intel that he'd been gathering and helps put together that the photographer was actually working for Dehaven so her and Royce go to an armed services committee meeting that Dehaven called a recess for when she sees her She tries to assure O'Neill that the charges of her being a lesbian will be dropped and she will be able to go on to a long An illustrative career in naval intelligence. That's not what O'Neill wants She wants to get back into training and doesn't want dis haunting her This is where Dehaven saying how much she likes O'Neill being pissed off comes back to bite her because O'Neill is about to go in Front of cameras to expose the entire thing. Dehaven caves and says she'll get back into training. Yeah, I that whole Situation just seemed unnecessary to me. They could have just had it about this one joining the navy seals and Either have the senator in the background or sister make here the villa just didn't make any sense to me No, I mean, it's playing that whole both sides bullshit But it's also not untrue like there's a utilitarian argument from politicians that they can't do any good if they are not in power Mm-hmm, which is a large justification for how much money they spend on making sure they get reelected When they're not doing anything to actually help anybody But the statement is true that you can't do any good if you don't have the power to do it. So Heard like being like, okay, well, I'll sacrifice women as a gender on the altar of this garbage So that they don't close these bases and cost me my reelection makes sense from a political maneuvering perspective But you are correct that the movie didn't fucking need it No, it really doesn't and I think the fact that they make it on another woman really does like it just reached me like It's not a feminist movie. Don't worry. Yep. The women don't stick together So she is sent back to training to her unit who are happy to see her The final phase of their training is an operational readiness exercise in the Mediterranean Sea before that can start word comes in that a DoD satellite was shot down over Libya. Oh quick question. I sure when I first heard in some same Libya It made me realize what's the last time we had Libya's a bad guy in movies back to the future But what was it back the future? I was the 80s this picture a bunch of films constantly meant Libya Libya Libya Libya Libya Then you don't hear about in fact is this movie goes the best sheets like is it a what is it Iraq or Iran? No, it's Libya. Yeah, like who the fuck saw that coming huh? Huh? Oh Everybody we're gonna name drop Omar Gaddafi in this movie to make keep us, you know relevant It is very interesting how Washington Hollywood and All get together in this site this person's gonna be the villain We all disagree these villains and then it's just dropped like why suddenly Libya I mean, I know Gaddafi's dead now, but still why suddenly Libya's no longer gonna news whatsoever We don't hear a thing about it. I kind of wish I'd gone and gotten Doc Brown screen screaming It's the Libyans from back to the future There's a seal team on the ground they're recovering the records But they're gonna need help getting out and this group of trainees is the nearest and most available help master chief Volunteers them for this job now I'm kind of thinking Joe might have a problem with this wondering why could the trainees go and do this The fact is these are already commissioned officers and high ranking enlisted members of the armed forces These are not recruits on, you know, just going through boot camp These are people who have been in the military that are training for a different part of the military so they can Be used in this manner. Okay, so it works a bit better than I've seen it Look cuz we've seen this plot line in a lot of pictures. Yeah, where it's like we've just got training Oh, we're not quite graduate go fight Go and do this major and be the lead in the mission no less not like oh, we're back up to assist We're the ones doing it. We're the main people like oh, I can't happen that often But boy do the films do it a lot no And this one does it kind of a little bit better than those ones because not only can they because they're what I just said They are but they're not the main attack force or anything. They're actually going to assist another seal team That's good, but then they went I'm getting the battle so well they're getting to a battle But that doesn't that doesn't mean you're the main force. It just means yes got into a battle Yeah, I mean I guess there was a reason they had to be there because that battle could have happened to the guys that would have then been out Numbered and injured right. I mean your argument is a fair one. They're right. They're already trained They already been in the military so it makes a bit more sense than like in police academy where these guys right we've just Happening graduate again. It's somebody putting down a riot But I still appreciate often a gentleman. We get into the program any graduates a program and that's it Yeah, it doesn't immediately go into action. He's oh, I'd have to go to another school now I train and continues they land on the Libyan coast and work their way in master chief and O'Neill scout ahead Only to find that there's a Libyan army border patrol blocking the extraction route for the original seal team They end up in a firefight Master Chief sends O'Neill back to the beach to warn the others and draws fire the team is time to set up some explosive traps Before Master Chief comes back, but he gets shot in the leg right in the blast zone The team lays down cover fire and O'Neill goes to rescue Master Chief She has trouble lifting them alone. So McCool goes to helper once clear They blow their traps and most of the Libyan forces wiped out the rest are taken down by their rescue helicopters attack Helicopter escort and all the seals make it to safety back at home. The trainees are fully recognized as seals Master Chief leaves his poetry book in O'Neill's locker with his navy cross metal as a bookmark to that poem that he read at the beginning The end what did that mean? What did that mean? He's like it gives her the poetry book of the crossing and circles that Poetry at the that he doesn't the poem was about how wild animals don't feel pity for themselves Mm-hmm, and he's telling O'Neill that she earned everything she got She has no reason to ever feel pity for herself because She's stronger than any pity needs to be but she knew that already she didn't need his goddamn Yeah, but it's always no point does she feel sorry for herself and you'll be one in this film But I'll give it this much even when you already know a thing about yourself that you're proud of having somebody else Recognize that thing mean something, especially somebody that you know pretended to try to rape you and you broke there It does a weird rape almost right thing like I did not care for and wouldn't I forgive? I'm glad you got shot. I want to go back and got you to be honest Anyway charge this is still work. Give me a second to think about it. You answer first. I Do not I think it's dated. I think it's a 1997 movie that belongs in 1997 It would be nice to see a GIJ movie actually based on a woman trying to get in the Navy So why we have no Nate female Navy seals? What the hell is the problem here? Is it just sexism? Is it something about the way the program is designed because all these so-called neutral things like Oh, it's like we treat the men just like a boy. Well, that's bullshit. A lot of things are designed for a specific group culturally and all this sort of stuff that's clearly there's usually a bias in these things and I it's we hard for me to believe there is not some sort of Gender bias and the fact that we have only men and no woman's made it to the program Something's going on there, and it's not just men are stronger and women can't that's bullshit something else is there I think anyway, but in terms of this picture. I don't find and dimmy more I think if for some reason she got a razzie for the her performance on this, which is ridiculous I think it performs is fine. I think vingle Moritz's performance is actually the biggest caricature with that voice and that must have just like Something about him. It seemed like a cliche. I'd seen a million different movies already, but she's fine But there's nothing there's no depth to anybody in this thing I just and apparently was a box of his flop It's surprisingly because I thought it was a hit but apparently most people did not go see it It was like number one for two weeks and in some reason crash. I maybe word a mouth. He wouldn't care for I don't know I don't think it's a terrible movie. I just think it's a cliche I've seen it all before movie, but but instead of a dude. It's a woman who's leading I don't know it didn't bring me in so what about you? So for me it didn't work. All right I'm gonna sign on to everything that you just said, but I'm gonna say it doesn't work for a completely different reason Okay, it doesn't work because to date there are no women in the Navy SEALs This was 1997 if this was going to work It should have prompted the kind of cultural and social changes that would have led to their being women in the Navy SEALs in 2020 fucking four it didn't do that. So now it's almost 30 years old and didn't do that So now we could just look at it like an old failure Also, I didn't care for the casual homophobia very reminiscent of many of the films we've seen which is no The casual homophobia was actually the most believable part of I believe that people acted that way in 1997 Well, that's my point and there were no consequences for any of it. No none whatsoever Which why I want to keep it in 1997. Huh? Okay, so we both agree it doesn't work for slightly different reasons We pretty much agree. Yep. All right. So this was a patron's choice episode and the poll for next month's film is already up on patreon The choices are high tie from 1987 the Prince of tides from 1991 and crimson tie from 1995 So we've done doing a Navy movie and you have three movies in the queue about tides I would say you did that on purpose except I know you put these poll together like six months ago before the patrons voted on this Yes, I did. I didn't even remember and I did this to be honest. You're like high-tie from into time When did I do that from it? I was gonna ask you did you put this in here? Nope? I'm no memory writing this whatsoever Anyway, if you would have vote but I'm not a patron you can't fix that. We'll come in one a patron.com/DTSW pod No, George. What's up next? Next week Joe was on vacation huh was was it's a scheduling thing anyway my lovely wife kit will be sitting in for me and I will be sitting in for Joe and We will be talking about death race 2000 from 1975 How does it feel weird to milk that refer to her as your wife now? No, I mean I had a wedding. It's not weird I enjoy it weird. I just like does it cuz I know sometimes the people get first get married They still refer to their boyfriend a girlfriend by the as their boyfriend girlfriend. I'm like we talk with Mary now I'm like, oh, that's right. I do you have that? You're so like, oh, I can find just call you white I don't know. I've got a marriage. Just curious what I have fun doing is talking about my wife's boyfriend Okay, cuz that throws people that is something I would not enjoy That's like you and I different Anyway, that's this end this year. So I guess that's it for this episode. I'm Joe Dixa. Thanks for listening And I'm George Romaca. Thanks for listening indeed because of a podcast drop centers. No one around to hear it It's just another collection of ones and zeroes that doesn't matter Honey, this is just a career opportunity You won't be sleeping my way to the top deal You've been listening to does this still work produced by Joe Dixen and George Romaca The hosts can be reached via social media email or the contact page at dtswpod.com Be good to yourself and others because that still works I Really hope the effects track doesn't reflect how bad these are Because if I have to if we have to start adding these clips in fucking in post I'm we're gonna find a different platform because fuck this fuck paying for this. No, I agree Dear Dr. Gosh and a recent visit to my doctor's office do you dr. Gosh?
