- Now I get to talk about a product I have used for years, Riverside makes it easy to get a studio quality recording of you and a guest from anywhere in the world. Most of the interviews on this show are done virtually, but the quality doesn't suffer because of Riverside. Check out riverside.fm and use promo code PEPTALK, all caps and all one word to get 15% off. And you can check out the link in the show notes for more info. (upbeat music) ♪ On the creative journey ♪ ♪ It's easy to get lost ♪ ♪ But don't worry, you're liftoff ♪ ♪ Sometimes you just need a creative PEPTALK ♪ Hey, you're listening to Creative PEPTALK, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and illustrator. And this show is everything I'm learning about building and maintaining a thriving creative practice. (upbeat music) This episode is for you. If you are finding yourself in a place where you're trying on tons of different creative hats, trying to figure out what you wanna be or what you should be focusing on, this episode is for you. If you are someone who just loves the behind the scenes of the creative process, pop up video style, what's going on beyond what you see on the surface of a creator. It's also for you if you are in a creative career that has really intense and exciting seasons and projects and then weird downtime in between and you're not really sure what to do with that or how to feel about it. (upbeat music) - Jason, we have a lot going on. - We really do. - Maybe too much, but it doesn't feel that way, thanks to Miro. - Yeah, Miro is the visual collaboration platform that helps your team work together from anywhere. - Yeah, and Miro has tools for project management, creating a digital whiteboard with your team where you can brainstorm, making retrospectives and a whole lot more. We have a lot of content here at M&N and we've been trying to figure out how to get our videos up on different platforms and Miro's flow chart tool really helped us get organized and figure out what we need to do to make that happen. - And I really love Miro's mind mapping tool. It's a space where you can organize your thoughts in a way that translates to the rest of your team so that they can help you take action. - Super helpful because I can't always reach your mind. - You know, it would be scary if you could. Whether you work in product design, engineering, UX, agile or marketing, bring your team together on Miro. Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up today at Miro.com. - That's three free boards at miro.com. Massive thanks to Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one website platform that makes making a website easy peasy. For a moment, creative websites were kinda looking all the same and I really wanted to break out of the templity look. Then I heard that Squarespace has this new fluid engine and boy am I glad I checked it out because this thing is what I always dreamed making a website could be like for me. Drag and drop stuff and then drag it all over the place. Text, images, videos, you can put it wherever you want. Layer it up, tear it up, everything I cooked up in my mind. I could figure out how to do without any knowledge of coding. Got a lot of comments like, "Hey, who helped you build this?" And I was like, "Squarespace is fluid engine, baby." You can see it at antijpizza.com and head to squarespace.com for a free trial and build your own site. And when you're ready to launch, you can get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps. Today's episode is a phenomenal chat that I had with a guy who I've got to know a little bit over the past couple of years. His name is Mark Eshelman. You can find Mark online under the studio name, Real Bear Media. That's real with two Es, like Real Big Fish. Mark is the creative and content director and who some deem the honorary third member of the band, "21 Pilots." "21 Pilots" is a band that I'm assuming most of you have heard of. They're a Grammy award-winning duo that consists of Tyler Joseph and Josh Dunn. And to us, being from Columbus, Ohio, they are also just local treasures around here. According to Spotify, they have tallied over 34 billion global streams, sold four million tickets worldwide and nabbed dozens of multi-platinum certifications and even claimed a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records amongst many other amazing claims and feats. Despite all this, they find creative ways to feature small local businesses from around town and places that local fans instantly recognize and it strengthens the bond to their city. Like I still feel like they are known for being a Columbus band, which is a huge thing for a band at that level. Mark is a huge part of all this and has toured for the last 13 years with the band, shooting and documenting the shows and creating and being heavily involved within most of the creation of their music videos. He has excellent taste. He's also super down to earth with a great sense of humor and he has a strong dedication to the craft of storytelling and video and a real dedication to the fans of the band. All this is apparent in our conversation and it's mostly unedited and we do definitely excitedly squirrel around a little bit as to be expected, but there are so many good takeaways that I have been chewing on and thinking about since I had this chat. This is part of our Slow and Steady Summer series. We talk about the slow times, the small focuses that really matter within your creative practice and stick until the end for a CTIA, a call to inaction as we're doing throughout the summer with the no homework theme that is inspired by Mark and the 21 pilots team. Two tiny warnings we have at least one cuss word in this episode if you're listening with little kids or you've got sensitive ears just be aware and a trigger warning for a brief mention of a musician suicide. All right, let's get into this conversation with Mark Ashelman. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Let's get into story. We could start with, if you could just tell us a little bit about how you got into, do you consider yourself a director primarily? - Yeah, but I do so much more shooting than a director does, but I'm not enough, don't do enough shooting to be a director of photography. So it's this weird, I call it a creative and content director for 21 pilots, but the road there, I'll make it short because it goes all the way back to my childhood, but I remember in junior high watching, remember the Titans, I was like, I gotta play football. (laughing) But then I could put my pads on and I thought-- - I love this, this is so funny. - I watch remember the Titans, something in me just is like, you gotta play football. - This is so good, I feel like I know where you're going with this actually, but I love this. - But at the time, I was a scrawny little five foot four, whatever, maybe shorter. I don't remember how tall I was. Maybe my mom will, I need to go to her basement and check those markings on the wall. - Let's pause for a minute and go back to you. (laughing) - This is drive down to Franklin, Ohio. And so I was like, I gotta play football. This is the coolest thing I've ever seen, I need to play. And I put the, it's the day that the pads go on 'cause the rest of it was conditioning. And it's like the day the pads go on, I'm like, I don't wanna play football. - I've had a, I mean, I never cherished it that much, but I do remember I played one year of football in eighth grade and when the pads went on and the helmet, you're like, dude. - That's what separates you from the people that actually put the pads on. (laughing) - And so I realized it's like, what happened? Like, this isn't like the movie at all. And I realized, you know, maybe I shouldn't have been playing football and there was something else. And then I was such a follower through junior high in high school, my friend started skateboarding. - Right. - And he showed me like, girl, yeah, right, which is just a masterpiece of skateboarding videos. - Okay. - It's like the Spike Jones. - Yeah, I haven't seen it, but it's very famous. - It's incredible, you should see it. But I watched it and I was like, I got a skateboard. - Yeah. (laughing) - And so, like, and then I started skateboarding and I was terrible and there was no pads, but so I still stuck to it, but I was bad. And then, you know, with skateboarding, usually it goes to playing in a band. - Yeah, yeah. - It's because you're listening to, you know, a black flag and all this different stuff and it's just like, I gotta play guitar. - Yeah. - And so like, I started watching music videos and it's like, I gotta be in a band. And then the bands were bad. And I did, however, have a little tiny Sony Handicam and I started making the skateboard videos. And then when the band started, I started making the band videos 'cause we were all in my space and it was really cool to post a bulletin with a link to, like, your tour diary, even though you're playing for three people. - Yeah. - And so I was doing videos for the skateboarding and videos for the band. And I realized, like, oh, I liked the movie, remember the Titans. Oh, I liked the video, girl, yeah, right. I liked these music videos and it's like, I didn't know how to capture that inspiration and apply it in the right directions. I just was like, you know, as blank slate as I could. - I mean, I feel like that alone, there's a tremendous amount of insight and just that bit of story because I feel like most creators, I know, that's the way it happens and happens. And it's a story all on its own right of, like, a character thinking they want something, but it's not really what they need and it's somewhere behind that obstacle of being terrible at football or terrible at, you know, bands or skateboard or whatever. So how did that happen where it made that transition where all of a sudden, so you're taking these videos? - Yeah, so-- - And for some reason, it clicks. - My band, so I, in high school band kind of broke up but then we got back together and started a new band when I was in college and at that time, I went to college for video production so I finally figured it out. I was like, okay, video production, I'm gonna do it. So I went to a school after high school that has since shut down, so they were kind of like, hey, come in here for two years and we'll put you right away into something, something like low level video. And so I got really lucky in where I kind of used those skills. It was kind of like the equivalent of just watching YouTube tutorials where someone was like, here's how you edit, here's how a camera works. And so I took those rudimentary things and I applied those to these videos I was doing with bands. And so I was playing in the band shooting, I would hand the camera whenever it was our set, I'd hand the camera to someone in the crowd. And so one of the bands we played with a lot started to try to figure out the network thing. And so they would go up to Columbus, which was like two hours away. - What's the network thing? - Like just, who do I need to talk to to get the bigger show? Who do I need to open for? Who do I need to associate with? And so they started reaching out to Columbus and they kind of were running the Cincinnati thing. And so they're like, okay, who's the big, who's the big shots? And it's always these bands in Columbus. And so they started reaching out and they found this t-shirt company whose defunct now doesn't exist called Make Believe Monsters. And I at the time was like, okay, maybe I should do my own form of this on the video side. And so I reached out to them as well. And they were really receptive. They're like, hey, we have a show, this is 2010. So we have a show this summer where we're showcasing all these bands that we're partnering with. We give them merch, they wear the merch, they play our shows. We'd love to capture all that. And I go up there, I drive up there for the first time, meet the guy. He's like, dude, you should totally move in. Like we're living outside of Columbus on the southeast side, just on the other side of the big highway. And so just outside of the ecosystem and he goes, you should move in, like do videos all the time. And then I come up there, I go to the show and 21 Pilots is opening. - Yeah. - And they are one of the Make Believe Monsters bands. And spoiler alert, that's a band I ended up working with for the next 13 years. - Yeah. - So I met Tyler-- - What are they doing at the time? Were they still now like-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So this is 2010, they started in 2009, so they were still trying to figure it out. So Tyler was with two other guys that have since left the band, now it's a two piece. But back then, they were opening the show because they had to play another supporting gig later that night and they were just playing shows. They knew they had to and they would pass out their little EPs and just try that. They were doing the same thing every band was doing and just grinding. I think a lot of people forget about how many little tiny shows that that band has played just because when stressed out Heathen and Ride come on, they're like, oh, this is a band that has always been up here but I met them when it was just the bare minimum of everything, just the bad sound, bad crowd, all that stuff. - Yeah. - But actually, you know what, not bad crowd because everyone kind of left when they got off the stage. They were pretty big and close. Yeah, so I met them and then they ended up doing three shows that we called like a tour that fall and I took that time to get to No Tyler really well and said, hey, man, whatever you need. And he goes, actually, we're playing a show in February, the next year at Newport. It's gonna be a big show. We'd love for you to shoot it. And since then after that show, he goes, hey, we have an extra room, do you wanna move in? And so I just moved in and that's where we are. - I wanna go back to the Newport thing in a second, but if you live in Columbus and you make creative stuff, lots of stories get told in terms of the legends of how 21 pilots took off and, you know, everybody has friends of friends who knew something or at that gig or that kind of stuff. So I wanna talk about that 'cause I think there's a lot of really interesting creative stuff there. But first, one thing that stood out to me as you're describing kind of getting into video, I think a lot of people, myself included, when it comes to navigating my creative path, I probably overemphasize talent or destiny or whatever it is when you're like, in that moment, that's when everything came together. But it sounds like, you can tell me if this is true or not, it sounds like almost, there's an element of where you're just finding what's needed, like where there's like, oh, so this is what people need me to do and I like doing it. And it fits within what I like, yeah. So whenever I moved in, I started designing teachers. This is way before, you know, Brandon Reich. Yeah, it was way before Brandon Reich, who's now the art director, does all of the album covers, does all of the design Bibles. It was before him. And so I would pull out my laptop and be like, "I think I can do that." And I designed their second EP that released in the summer of 2011. And I was not a designer. And then I also made these little cut downs. Like we would have a TV at the merch stand that would just be a highlight. Like check out our YouTube channel, check out our Myspace. And I just made those. And then I would sell T-shirts too for the band. And I was, you're right, it was just, they had some needs and I just was chomping at the bit to help. I don't know why, but I just, it felt right. And I liked the guys and everyone was really nice and they were supportive and they were creative. And it wasn't like, it wasn't destiny. It was, how can I insert myself here and be assertive and what they need done and make calls. And I think moving forward, one of the biggest things I do on these calls, like Zoom calls that we do is make choices and assert myself more. And like, yes, it's been established that this is the creative and content director for the band. But like, I need to keep making calls and I still need to keep on doing things. I think I got really in my head there for, I know I'm jumping all over the timeline and I apologize. - Good, I'm loving it, keep going. - I, there was a lot of times whenever the band blew up that we would come home from tour and I would shut down. - Yeah. - I'd be like, not creative anymore. I'm just not that and it was depression. And it was, there was plenty, not to get too dark and heavy, but there are plenty of guys and girls at tour for a living that killed themselves in 2020 because tour was gone. And I felt like it was never to that extreme because those people were just hurting so much more than I could even explain on this podcast. But my thing was just like, it's gone. The thing, the schedule is gone or the creativity is gone. There's nothing to shoot. And so for the last couple of years, I've like, okay, what can I work on? What can I do? What can I learn? And these last two years, I've been focusing on what I learned and taking that thing I did in the beginning of inserting myself and making calls because I was excited about working with a band. I gotta hang onto that because you will get complacent. If that's the right word, you'll burn yourself out, you'll just think that it's just handled. You think you did all the work already. And it's up to the band to write the record and then I just shoot them when they play the show. And then I'm done and that's just not the case. And everyone zooms out and says, what are you talking about? Like, 21 pilots has the coolest social media posts and everything looks right. And I'm like, that's just happens. I don't think I'm doing it. But then you realize, oh no, you're doing that and you can focus on how to do those better. They don't just get done. They get created. I was on a call with Tyler before this record came out and we gotta remember that there's people in the buildings that do the legal things. There's management that makes a decision. But it comes down to it. It takes a room of you, me and Brandon and Josh to sit there and just close our eyes. And I'm closing my eyes right now. I close my eyes and I picture and we just think and we have to sit there and that building of attorneys, that label, that management, they just have to wait until our eyes open back up and we do the thing. And so you think, and I'm so rambly right now. - Dude, keep it going. I've got so many little things we can jump off but keep going. - And you gotta get to that point where it's just like, what's the in between? - Yeah. - Like there's, how can you be better in between? And so I've learned color grading has been something I've tackled and obsessed with. And I think, you know, one thing you asked me on that text was, what do you think people are doing wrong? And I didn't really know how to answer that 'cause everything I came up with sounded like, do you really mean that? But I think the one thing I did land on is that the internet has all these things, like how to direct, how to edit. And there's all these things you can grasp at. But really what I've been working on to bring this home is I focus on one thing at a time. And like the color grading is like, how do you work on that one at a time? How do you be a better shooter? What are false colors in your camera? Do you know how that works? And like focus on little things at a time because your brain isn't ready to absorb everything. You can't cram creativity, right? There's no the night before cramming before a shoot. Like you just have to work on the problem. - I love the idea of that. The night before the concert, you're like, "I gotta learn color grading!" And yeah, it's a different thing. - I wanna have stopped doing it so funny. - Yeah, you do it by making choices. And I love what you said about making choices because I think, I don't know. Sometimes on the show, I will talk about some random thing and I'll have a lot of messages of like, I have that same experience. And usually it's stuff that I think this is just me, something weird about me. But one of the reasons why I've doubled down on the idea of the creative journey is 'cause I think it is a good illustration. A journey is a good symbol that illustrates the idea of growth versus fixed mindset. So the fixed mindset is very much like, either this is meant to be or it's not, or either I have the talent or I don't. It's very like binary. And that kind of thinking is what gets you to not invest, not try things, not mess up, all that kind of stuff. And so I think for me, when I'm not super well mentally and creatively, I can get into a place where I'm like ruminating, overthinking, like, is this the right thing? Is it not the right thing? And forget that most of the forward momentum in my creative journey has happened from choices. I'm just like, yeah, I made a choice. And then I learned and it was, oh, that was good, that was bad. Then I made another choice. And the job is making choices. But before we go off on that, there's so many little pieces that I wanna just go back to. One of the things you said that I, okay, I'm just gonna put a little, a summary point on what I think is relevant to everybody about what you were saying is that you were uniquely affected creatively by 2020. Anybody that's doing live stuff is gonna get hit really hard. And that can be just kind of like a metaphor for everybody else. 'Cause everybody else had versions of that, but that's a very intense one. And I think that that is also a microcosm for all of the ways that the world has changed creatively over the past four years, including short form video and AI and all that. I think everyone I know creatively has had moments like you were describing to different degrees, like you said. So I think that there is, to me, I feel like that's a through line of talking about how to stay open, how do you stay excited? How do you find a thread again? These are the things that I hear you talking about. One of the things that came to mind or that I thought you kind of just went quickly by it, but I think it's super interesting is when you were talking about the social media or all of these different aspects that you just kind of were doing unconsciously, one of the things I'm really, I don't even know how to say this, but lots of times in my creative journey, I realized different things could be art and different things could be exciting. One example I just saw recently was Jim Henson, that doc on Disney that just came out, Ron Howard did it. He goes, he's falls into puppetry. Then when he goes to Europe and he sees these people practicing it as an art, he's like, oh, okay, I can do this. Like before that, he's like, I don't really, don't call me a puppeteer. I don't really wanna do, you know, and it sounds kind of similar. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but it kind of sounds similar to some of the stuff you were saying of. In your mind, the art was the tour. The art was filming the shows. And then you found art in a bunch of different places when you couldn't do that. Is that anything like what you're saying? - Yeah, I think "21 Pilot" specifically, after that blurry face record, which that's like the 2015 big record, the stressed out ride record. The next one was this album called "Trinch" and the way that we rolled it out, and we had like the cryptic website and we had the upside down, reversed black and white gifts of the music videos that weren't released yet. And so we found like, oh, this is kind of like our art outside of the tour. Like how do we serve the fans in a way that's, if we don't have a music video to push and we don't have a tour to push, what's the in between stuff? How can we get creative about the in betweens? And so we really tried to do a good job of that because people don't want to hear from the band only when there's something to sell, I think it's silly. And even though we were like hinting at music video, music coming, there was a transactional thing that could be happening at the end of the journey. But leading up to there, we want to make it fun to worry. Even if you don't spend a dime on the band, you get to enjoy something and it's not just about pushing something to spend money on. And so we found creativity in that. We found, yeah, just the tour, I guess, what I was saying is 2017, 2018, 2019, like I got, even though we were doing some of that creative stuff in between, I got kind of stuck on just the tour being the thing. - Yeah. - Like after we got through those things, I kind of lost ownership over everything because then we'd go on tour and it's all about the show. And then afterwards, we would just be home with nothing to do, and I guess just what I said earlier was just, man, that's such a bad feeling to not have anything to work on. But the journey, the creative journey, is such a smart way to put it. 'Cause some of my favorite movies, anime, whatever, like favorite video game, like The Last of Us, it's a journey from east coast to west coast. - Yeah. - And I played that, by the way. - Yeah, yeah. You know that one. So I can run with that one. The series was great. And it's all about the creative journey can be seen as like an east coast to west coast journey as well, like metaphorically. It's like you stopped in the city and you learned something. And then that you really took it in and you're like, hmm, time to leave the city and you move on to the next city and there's some in between stuff happening. And so it's been cool to kind of soak up these little moments of my journey and apply them to, I wrote in my notes too. - Yeah. - That one of the biggest things I've learned is and I'm still so all over the place. So I hope this makes sense. - Dude, I'm, dude, I'm, first of all, I just finished a series on ADHD. So nobody that listens to this can really complain. They know what they're getting. - Got it. - It's all as, you know, energy is my primary thing. - Got it. - Excitement. So just go and I'll, I'll reign it in and frame it. - Okay. - But keep going. - Good. - I feel like everything I say, I'm inspired to say something else. - Yeah. - So I'm not very profound very often, but right now I feel-- - Dude, I'm loving it. - Not profound maybe, but that's such a, a big-headed thing to say. - Just, dude, you, it is profound. I'm, dude, I, I need this juice, okay? Because I told you before we started that I've kind of been in a weird mental health slump and different in and out. There's been tons of bright points, but I am looking, and I actually think this is what I'm taking away as the excitement leading the way. - Got it. - And so you're, I'm just getting excited, hearing about it from such a different point of view because you're, yeah, your journey is just so different to mine. - Sure. - To us. - Yeah, yeah, I was saying, I used to separate creativity from my real mind. There were two different marks. There was the creative mark, and then there was the regular mark. And I feel like keeping them separate was putting a hindrance on fulfillment. - Yeah. - 'Cause-- - That's fascinating. - Yeah. - Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by that? I do think I understand, but I think it's, what was the difference? How did you separate those in your mind? - I think it goes back to me trying to, like last week I shot some sort of video every single day. - Yeah. - And it was okay that no one saw them. So it's really about like, how do I, 'cause you always dream about these artists you look up and they're just in some sort of house that barely has plumbing and they're just creating constantly. - Yeah. - And they're just creating and they just make things and it's always perfect. - Yeah. - And so I try to take the realism of that and be like, how can I be a little creative every single day and every, and people talk about this all the time, just like adding creativity into your everyday life. And I've got a really good friend, Chase Ryan, that we sit in Discord because he has like an editing job that he sits at home, he shoots and edits his own stuff for a company. And then whenever I'm not touring, I'm at home trying to figure out what these, I have a little bit of a day to day job with 20 on pilots, but for the most part it's kind of like figuring out what I can do for the next thing. - Yeah. - So we sit in Discord, just like how you and I are sitting here in the same room, we're in the same server with our headphones on, with our mics and just kind of not even talking the whole time, but just like checking in with each other creatively. And it's like he'll be talking about film stock for a 35 millimeter camera. And like, did you see the sale that B&H is happening about this thing? And it's just like, he kind of helps me keep creativity at the forefront of my everyday life. - Yeah. - And I don't have children right now, so I don't know that hurdle. - Sure. - And I don't understand that hurdle of like, hey, I wanna go sit and edit this thing, but you need to go to school? I need to drive you to school, what are you talking about? So maybe one day that's something I'll learn and I definitely respect every creative that goes through that. And 'cause I know some amazing fathers and mothers in my life that figure out how to do it. And that's just so inspiring. And we'll maybe talk about yours a little bit. - Sure. - 'Cause I know your kid is so cool. - Yeah. - We both love "Men I Trust" the band. - Oh yeah. - Yeah, I did, yeah. - So I guess what I meant is that I very much think there's like the regular mark that maybe my girlfriend who loves with me sees all the time. And that guy's creative too. - Sure. - But I feel like I always separated them and I always kind of get in my own head about that. And so to answer your question, to harp on that more. - Yeah. - It's really just like how do I make those the same person again? - Yeah, that's why though. - Because that's fulfillment. And that's what makes me happy. And that's my form of meditation. - Yeah. - Like take, so I got very lucky I got sent these two cameras. - Yeah. - And they're like, hey, just take these and try them out. You don't have to do a social post, just take them. And I took the dog on a walk, took the camera and just shot some bull crap. - Yeah. - And just didn't really have any end goal. But it was meditation. And I posted about that and said like, hey, even if no one sees it, go out and create something. And people say that all the time, but I feel like that was the first time that I took ownership over it and tried to do it myself. And that's something that I just, having those two together just makes a better me overall. - Yeah. I love that too because I think when I've found myself in scenarios where my creativity is reactive and I'll explain what I mean by that. So as an illustrator, I actually think there are a lot of parallels between illustration and acting except the glamor. There's almost no glamor illustrating for almost anybody, Norman Rockwell. I think he was the last like glamorous illustrator. But I think that there are a lot of parallels. You're illuminating a text. That's what you're doing. You're bringing visual and emotion and you're making it come alive. But one of the things that it has in common that's kind of can be a real negative is you're reactive and that the illustrator and the actors are often like the last link in the chain. - Sure. - And they're waiting. They're waiting for people to call them, right? And that's great when people are calling. Like that's it, right? But when they're not, you can get really low. You can get, you know, and when I was first, the first five years, those were the battles that I was having with myself of like, "Oh man, I'm riding a wave. It's great. Things are awesome." And then all of a sudden you go a couple of months and nobody's asking you to do anything. And all of a sudden you're not a creative person. - Yeah, that's the contrast of tour and off tour. - Yes. And so I could see how that scenario would happen to you and is that part of what makes this breakthrough power powerful for you. Like in terms of just owning it, doing it as Mark, rather than serving other a band or whatever. - Yeah, exactly. It's, 'cause in the music industry specifically, these men and women that are content creators. - Yeah. - Storytellers, whether it be video or photo, you lose ownership really quick. And you, it's the band's music video. It's the artist's photo. And if you don't like kind of work on cutting that out and creating for yourself, you're gonna lose all of your product. - Yeah. - And all of the end product is just you kind of lose it. - And your stamp and your kind of, yeah. - So I get that like working for someone else, waiting for that prompt to come in, waiting for that hire to come in. It's like the in-between. We always talk about that. We've been talking about that the whole time. It's just that in-between. So. - Yeah, okay. There's maybe two threads that I could go on there, but let's go on the in-between. Because I think that there's something really interesting that I've had to learn. This podcast, a half of it has always been about, it's about the creative practice and practice incorporates the business side of it. And it didn't come natural to me. It's not, even as I've done this show for 10 years, there've been lots of times where I'm like, you know what, screw the business stuff. I don't even wanna do that, I wanna talk about that. But ultimately what brings me back to it is caring about creative people and realizing it that it's really in their best interest to know this and take it seriously and be competent in this. That it actually is, you know, speaking of the Jim Henson doc, they were, he had a trying to a dollar that they built like all this stuff. And it was about like, if we don't have this, we don't get to do that. - Sure. - And so one of the things from my forays into business that comes up a lot is the, not the creative journey, but the customer journey. And it's a thing that, in the business world, it's very pervasive. Everybody kind of takes it for granted. But I don't think, it's so applicable to creatives, but I don't hear creative people thinking about this much. And so this is an oversimplification, but you could think about it in three parts, kind of like what you were talking about with the three acts. But there's the discovery. So getting on people's radar for the first time. And actually I think, just like you were saying, creators, they think about the first act and the third act and not the middle one. So the discovery is the one, lots and lots of creators are thinking about that. How do I get new people to know about what I do? How do I go viral and get on people's radar for the first time? How do I get on the radio, whatever it is? And then the last one is the sale. So a lot of people, and I would say, most artists don't even think about that. Honestly, I don't think, I think they mainly think about discovery, partially 'cause it's really difficult, but also just because, I don't know, there's some kind of poll there. - I mean, the first one, the first of the three feel is impossible right now. And the second one, you can't blame creatives for not remembering that second one because it doesn't exist anymore. Because the algorithm of it all, and I know that has been talked into the ground and I hate to beat a dead horse, but the second one, you don't serve your followers anymore. - Unless you're a huge established artist that had a massive radio hit. - Sure. - You're not serving. - Right. - Talk about floor. - Yeah. - They keep on focusing on that first one, not to single them out because it's not, but they're in a spot where they're trying to connect with new people and they wanna move on to that second step, but everyone's being served that first step. For you, Paige, whoever I'm not following, why would you create for your followers if you're at that level or whatever? So, I wanna talk more about this. - Oh no, can I just observe something in the room? - Yeah, go ahead. - Behind you are six shelves of just color and different levels of stuff. There's so much more interesting things to look at than your eyes, but behind me, your POV is me in a black soundproof wall. And so there is no color. - There's a clear advantage for me here, yeah. - There's nothing to look at behind me, and I think you've done that by design. - It's hilarious, like, all right, keep you on your toes, distracted, and I will just totally own this conversation. - No wonder I am just spewing because I just, there's a total up there. There's like, Muppets, and then behind me is a black soundproof sound resistant. - Again, ADHD, I like this is, there's nothing for me to pay attention to, but you on that side, yeah, that is hilarious. I gotta think about that. - This, does this feels like, did you see both an imer? - No, I haven't, but I will. - Okay, well, there's a scene where there's like a bunch of old white dudes interviewing him about why did you create the bomb? And so the screen starts shaking when he's looking at all of them, and I just imagine the slow shutter shake of these shells behind you. - It is madness, it's madness, there's chaos, maximalism on this side. - But there isn't a naked lady on my lap, which you haven't seen the movie, so it doesn't make sense to you. But anyone that's seen the movie, we'll probably wondering if there was a naked lady where there's not, I can confirm that there isn't. That's not how we do this podcast for someone that hasn't even seen the movie, I think so. - That is, that was for other people. - That's okay, that's fine, it's, I'll take it as a non-spoiler. - Okay. (soft music) (soft music) - What were we talking about? Oh, we're talking about the journey of, here's what, I'm, this is a thing that I don't think people talk about this enough, it's kind of an obsession of mine. So, just to lay it out, there's the discovery, the middle is the trust, which is the thing of just nurturing your relationship with the people that like what you do, which is what you were describing. There's no transaction, there's no, you discovered, there's no sale, it's just relationship, it's just, and so that gets ignored a lot, and then the third one is the sales. And I get what you're saying for sure, like I'm as frustrated by the way that the internet has developed as a place for creative people, as anybody else, but I do think that I'm constantly fascinated by bands like Iron Maiden and Grateful Dead, who focus so much on number on the second one. - Yes. - How loot, how valuable that was, and how, it's how difficult it is to be that kind of artist. - Yeah, I think like Chapel Rhones, a good example of a cartoonist. - Agreed, yeah, 100%. - That's doing that. - Yes, yes, yes. - Like, hey, we have our club, I don't know if you can cuss, but screw you. - You can, you can cuss, yeah. - Like, fuck you if you don't want to be a part of our little group. - Yes. - But then everyone's like, what would be a part of that group? So, yeah, you're right, like, she's a great example. But yeah, that middle one just doesn't exist for so many people, but Iron Maiden, that's so funny, you're right. - Yeah. - It's just like, we're doing our thing, be a part of it. But also, it's kind of, it's kind of privileged too. - Sure. - Like, it's like, they've, obviously they worked hard, but they've been established, and they were before these uncertain times of, you know, social media. So. - There's always luck involved. - I do, I'm not a believer that everybody is going to get lucky sometime, but I do think the longer you create and show up, the more lucky you get. You get more and more opportunities to get lucky. You know, for me, and I don't think this is just like, I'm not saying everybody could do this, I'm not saying it would work every time, but one of the things that I did, and I have some friends that had a similar kind of practice was just keep overhead, razor thin, keep making stuff, and just slowly build up your overhead and, you know, over time if making stuff, if making stuff for a living is a big deal to you. - Yeah, I think we, you and I got lucky because we were so obsessed with the creation. - Yes. - That it not didn't make it easy, but it definitely was like, oh no, this is what I'm doing, this is what I do, that's why I did the merch designs because I just need to be there. - Yes. - My friend of mine is working Monday through Friday 9 to 5, and he wants to do like a scripted podcast. - Right. - And he is in a certain situation where he's obsessed with it, but also when it comes 501 PM, he's exhausted. - Oh yeah. - And he doesn't want to create. - Yeah. - And so there is that part of it, it's like, how do you balance the need of an income, especially like avocados are like five bucks each? - Yeah, it's nightmare, it's a nightmare. - Yeah. And then toast is, and then avocado and toast? Maybe the Republicans are right. Maybe we're spending our money in the wrong thing. - Especially now. Maybe they weren't right five years ago, 10 years ago, but now if you're still buying avocados and this kind of make good God, yeah, dude. And actually I am, my take is always with the show. I think one of the reasons I like doing the show is because it's almost as an alternative to the impractical, unrealistic, overly, raw, raw, whatever, resources that are out there. I'm just like, okay man, just quit your job and do the, you know, whatever. Like in that scenario that you're describing, I think whatever the answer is, it's complicated and it's nuanced and it's gonna require a lot of experimenting and sacrifice and nothing that anybody, there's no like great answer for that person. There's a, there might be a long road, there might be some shifts. - You know, what else? - Yeah, I mean the other thing that sucks is that like I'm seeing these bands, like these other bands that, that where they have to manipulate their philosophy as a band and order to be seen by new people. - Sure. - And so they are doing the trendy stuff, which isn't their voice at all. - Yeah, then once you make it then why does it even matter? - Yeah. - Because people that follow you are like, oh wait, no, can you do that thing where you pick on your grandpa? - Yes, exactly. - 'Cause I love to pick on my grandpa a bit. Like, well we have a song about this, like no, do pick on your grandpa. - Exactly, but okay, so there's two things. There's two threads that keep coming back for me and it's excitement and opportunity and finding the place where that meets. You stay excited, you're excited about, remember the Titans, this led to that, that led to that and you found an opportunity where that excitement could flourish and manifest through that thing. And I think that you have to stay excited and you have to keep looking for the opportunities 'cause they're always gonna change. So I think that that is always true, but the other piece of it is, I wanted to make a comparison and you know this better than I do, so I wanna hear what your kind of thoughts are here, but when it comes to Iron Maiden, Grateful Dead, who did you say? - Chaperon. - Chaperon, what is it, Rowan? - I think it's just Rowan. - Rowan, yeah. - Gosh, am I wrong? I think that's right. My daughter's pretty into her. - Well, whenever someone asks me who you've been listening to, I just kind of mumble it. - Yeah, but I know that she's a great example because I've followed her story a little bit and someone who apparently on the surface blew up overnight, but the fact of the matter is she's been investing in that community for a long time and investing in what she does and who she is. - My girlfriend, I was actually tour managed on a tour that Chapel was opening up years ago. - Wow, yeah. - 2018, maybe '19, maybe, I think it was '18. - Yeah. - So yeah, she's grinding. - But I keep going, but also parallels to something you were talking about at the start, which was how, from what I've heard, 21 Pilots was playing tiny shows all over the city creating tons and tons of relationships and then building to this bigger show that then kind of put them on the map. - Yeah, that was back when social media, like you actually saw the people you follow. I know I keep bringing that up and it sounds like such a get off my lawn. - This is something that everybody is thinking about, so us talking about it is just a good thing, in my opinion. But back then, 2011, 2010, 2011, they could choose to not promote a show in Kent, Ohio, or a VFW in Chicago, and they would go just underneath too far away to drive to Columbus, because they were making these little pockets of fans and then they would get on social media and promote what felt like the first show. Like, hey, we're playing Newport, we want you to be there. So it's not like, hey, we're playing this VFW in Chicago 'cause they knew only three people were gonna show up. The social media posts isn't gonna bring in 100 people. So they just did the show quietly, did this show quietly, did this show quietly, connected with those people, and then finally, when they all came to their MySpace or Facebook, they'd be like, hey, come to the show and then everyone would show up. And then they would show up and look around and be like, wait a second, I saw this band with three other people, why is there so many people in this room? And so they really planted those seeds so well. And that was just Tyler trying to figure out how to best use the internet and these connections and connecting with people and yeah, taking any giggy could and not promoting it. But now it's just like, if you don't promote, promote, promote your chances of reaching your followers are so low that if you don't promote everything, then they're not gonna see the one time you do. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - I totally get that. But I think that, and from my perspective, my experience of 21 Pilots is super limited. I know my son exclusively listens to 21 Pilots, which is hilarious to me. I told him last night, I was like, hey, I was like, 'cause he wanted to put on some music and he put 21 Pilots on. And I have-- - What does he listen to? The new record? - All of it. - All of it, okay. - Everything. - Okay. - And he knows it all and he is a fan of all of it. And I was like, you know, you could listen to another band too. And he's like, no, I'm good. (laughing) But I thought, all right, cool, man. But, you know, I feel like from the outside, they still seem like a small band because not, I know they're all of the, I know all the whole story. I know how much, how massive they've got that, you know, they have singles that went-- - One billion views, too. - Yeah, like just there's-- - Three. - As big as it gets. But, I mean, even down to the videos that you guys made for Clancy, like, they feel, they have that feeling of Grateful Dead and Iron Maiden. Their fans feel in on something. - Well, I think the fans have, whenever the band gets, you know, aside from Billie Eilish and Taylor Swift, the band was up there, top three with them. And all the fans were like, it's the biggest band no one's ever heard of. - Right. - Is what they always say. And I think that's really cool and it's really credible. And I think that comes from feeling like it's a personal experience. It comes from that, and I'm only, I'm just pointing out that even though Instagram or Twitter, mainly those two are what I think of as being just more or less broken in terms of how to use it as a creative person, that before them and after them, that nurturing relationship has seemed pretty key to even the way that they built up those first shows. And then now I still think that they have a deep connection, not just a attention, but a connection. And it's a different thing. - Yeah, I mean, I think it's really cool when you go past an arena where any band is playing and the fans in line look a certain way. - Yeah. - Like our fans will have the red tape, they might have the yellow tape from years past. They dress up, some of them look like bishops, which is a character in our world. And they have Ned Antlers, which is another character from the world. And then like I drove by the nationwide when Millie Martinez was there and all of her fans were dressed up a certain way. Like that's when you know that you're connecting with that second thing. - Yes, 100%. - Really well. It's your fans that are out in line who's supporting you. Are they doubling down on the creative that they've been taught? - Yeah, 100%. Well, I mean, there's just like, I feel like we could go and go, but what are there any other bits that you wanted to dive into? Or are there any other elements of, yeah, I don't know. Is there anything we didn't hit on that you wanted to talk about? - I mean, I just, I guess I'm trying to zoom out for the last hour and trying to like really think about, like how, what am I like, 'cause I don't do a podcast very often. So I'm just like, who are you as a guest? I say to myself. - Yeah. - And I guess it's really cool to know that I can get on here and just spit, spit, spit, spit, 'cause I'm so fired up. And I know I said, I used the word profound earlier, but I think a younger me would have been like, okay, you've got this scheduled, you need to figure out what's the profound thing you're gonna say. - Right. - What are you gonna say? And I realized like the best thing I can do going into this is to be myself and that parallels perfectly with the creative journey of just being myself. And like, you will, if you're anything like me, you will always think that you're not interesting enough to think every creative I've ever come across and become friends with are always saying that. - Definitely. - You yourself have painted two places in walking distance of my house that I could see your work and like just admire it, but at the same time you're like, man, (laughing) I haven't done anything. - Yeah, dude, yeah. - And like, you know, we're talking about the New York best time, or New York Times bestseller list and all that stuff, but at the same time, you and I come down to her like, man, what am I doing today? What am I gonna do? What's tomorrow, yeah. So I was able to zoom out today and be like, man, dude, you're fired up. Like you, you, you know, the house smells like cat litter right now and you're like working on that and you're figuring out like all that stuff, that's just part of life. But really when it comes down to it, we didn't, we didn't sit here today and take an hour to talk about things that are really bothering me or like the fact that I hit every red light yesterday on the way to go get dinner. Like, it sounds like I'm really simplifying it, but this, when I came in here and I was fired up about something I really care about, I'm lucky enough to call that a job. - Yeah, man. - And so I want that for everyone that's creative and it's the hardest time in the world to get started. But there's, and it feels like there's no room for more creatives, but as soon as you start, like you, you'll find your, your slot. - Yeah. - I'm going to, I guess. - And again, that's oversimplification, but to wrap it all up, that's, that's kind of where my head's at right now. - Well, I think, okay, I, I, I love that you said that because one of the things I wrote down was there was a, one of the through lines through your story was constantly thinking, oh, this is the thing or this is the football's the thing or skateboarding's the thing or touring's the thing. And I do think that we overemphasize nouns, like person places things, like this is the art, the arts movies, the arts picture books, the art, you know, the, it's all about Instagram. That's what it is, like, and we can over index on that. And I think the thing is the excitement. And I think it's finding an outlet for that excitement. What is the opportunity that's in front of me and being open, having open hands to understand that that's always going to change? And I think we're going through this massive shift. And I do think that there are real things to grieve. There are real problems to solve within all of that. I'm not undermining that whatsoever. But I think the thing that is the same today as it ever was was go, go listen to it. That's why I love like biographies of creators or documentaries or whatever, is that they always were trying to find an outlet for what was exciting. And it almost always wasn't what they wanted it to be. It wasn't, it didn't manifest exactly how they were hoping it would into reality in terms of the thing. And so I think that's what I take away from your story is keep, find ways to stay excited. Remember what's exciting about it. And then never give up trying to find how can this, how can I find an outlet in a group of people where what I have actually provides some value. Yeah. - What'd you say? (laughing) - I'm just kidding. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, let's take a second here. How lucky are we? - Very lucky. - So lucky. - Yeah. - And I want that for everybody. I've already said that. I want that for my friend that wants to do the script or podcast. - Yeah. - But there's all these limitations and all these hurdles. And everyone asks me like, how did you get there? Like what should I be doing? And I said, you should be doing. - Yeah dude, yeah. - And, and, and, the limitations are something that, you know, that's one of the reasons I get really frustrated with people that are like, anybody can do it. It's, you know what, that kind of like energy. Your friend that gets off at 5 p.m. I wouldn't say, yeah man, you just need to grind and do it the way I did it and whatever. But I would say that those limitations don't shy away from them because they are the reality. Those are the, that's the medium that you're working with. - Exactly. - You know, so you've got to figure that out. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's like, that, it feels like creativity is the path of least resistance. And it's like, if I'm being creative, it's because I'm, my phone's on silent. It's because I, I'm all I took today off. It's because like, there's all these factors of what makes creativity, but really creativity is just like, I really fucking hate my job. I'm so fired up about it that I'm gonna kill this podcast 'cause I wanna quit so bad and simplification, but when it comes down to it, you're right. And that's what I would tell people. It's not like, anyone can do it, you're right. That's such a bullshit way to go about it because you have to understand your limitations and use those and put them in a headlock and try to squeeze life out of them. And it feels like you're just like, like rubbing your face against concrete sometimes. But you just gotta like kind of like roll over and like just let it work on your back a little bit while you sing a song or something like that. Like whatever it is, it's, and it feels so stupid to be here saying this as someone that's seen so much success because it's like so easy for me to say these things, but I will tell you, I promise you, I feel so, I feel so happy and blessed and whatever you wanna say, whatever you wanna associate with it that I've been given these opportunities and I don't forget about that. And actually, I'm thinking about that more than ever because I'm like, we've got tortoise and start for a couple of months. What can I do now, going back to that thing? So that's just, man, gosh. - Dude. - Gah! (laughing) - Well, what dude, honestly, one of the things I think about with this show is, how can I capture creative people's excitement and passion at exactly right there? Because that's what I hope that this is a resource of is when you're sat in your studio or sat at your home or sat on the bus and you're like, I didn't even remember why I wanted to do this, that hopefully it's a little bottle of excitement. And I think you just-- - Yeah, you're right, because when you don't have the excitement and I know you're trying to wrap up-- - No, man. - And I know you've got three more people all laid out in the outside to come in. (laughing) They're just banging on the door. It's so, whenever you don't have the excitement, the distractions are so much more enticing. - Yeah. - Like being on a bus, having fully catered, I can eat as many Oreos as I want. And how's it all doin'? - Dude, that's-- - I will dip 'em, I will eat 'em. And that's a metaphor, okay? We're talkin' about alcohol. (laughing) - Infinite alcohol. - Infinite, no, it's pretty dry around here. But in all seriousness, the excitement is what you can latch on to. And when I'm fired up and like, you know, for the first tour ever, I'm gonna have a second shooter. And so I've been, he's been a sponge. And like anytime he makes a, not a misstep, but does something differently than I would, I'll be like, hey, here's why that I would do this differently. Here's all of the context. And I just wanna keep him fired up and keep him excited. And he's been helping me be excited because I really like teaching. And I'm not the best that's ever done it. But when it comes to what I do know, I can, I've gotten pretty good at telling him context. Why, why, why, why, not do this, but why do you do this? And so if I just ride that excitement, and it always comes back to excitement, I can sit on the bus and be excited. And I won't eat a pack of Oreos, a whole sleeve. Which I wish, I love that Oreos does a thing where you can just pop the open on the top and it just slides, right? It's just like, man, give me those microbastics. - You need to stay excited. Not on Oreos, but yeah, me too. And I, but it's, I mean, okay, there's, I love that. I feel like that's, that's for me, what this conversation is about. And it, for, as a ADHD person, I have this object permanence thing. That's another, it's a big reason why I want to create this huge back catalog of passion and excitement, is because when I'm not excited, I forget that I ever was, whether I don't, I'm convinced it wasn't real. And then this is almost like a journal of like, "No man, you were excited last week." Like get, get back into that zone. Because to me, I am my healthiest, to your point. When I'm excited, when I'm like locked into the work and like pumped about it, that's when I don't need all the other distractions and Oreos and alcohol and other stuff. Which is the time and place for it, but yeah. I think, there's a time and place for Jaeger bombs. I think that's-- - Yeah, it was college. - Yeah. (laughing) - And it was at the university, that's the time and place. - That's right. - No, I mean, Jaeger said the nun as anything, but you're right, having a backlog of excitement. I actually went back, I was working on my website, my demo reel, and I tend to shun anything that's already been done, that I've done, 'cause I'm like, "Dude, your shutter speed was too high, "your focus was off, sounds terrible." All the stuff I didn't know yet. I'm like, but I was watching with a new lens. - No pun intended. - No pun intended. - Yeah. - And I was like, "Man, I was excited." And I was fired up and that translates, and I think people are looking for that. So when you're picking on your grandpa, if it's not making you excited, then you're doing the wrong thing. Just 'cause it gets you the views, your grandpa needs to be left alone. So just so we know, the picking on the grandpa is-- - It sounds like you're the grandpa. Who's picking on you? What's happening? - It's my grandma. - Yeah. - From beyond the grave, she's a ghost. And she's haunting. (laughing) - That went dark quick. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Massive thanks to Mark for joining me, and somehow managing to stay in conversation, despite the challenging room and sitting in front of a wall of cluttered, colorful distractions. It's a, I have a huge bookshelf behind me of toys and books and trinkets and zines. And I'll show you in the newsletter on Substack, for those of you that subscribe. It's total visual chaos and maximalism. I super related to the journey, the creative journey that Mark went on from watching this movie about football and then falling in love with it and thinking it was about football and then realizing, no, it's not that, not happening again with skateboarding and bands, and then eventually realizing like, oh, what I love isn't the football or the skateboarding and the bands, it's the stories about these things. Like, I'm in love with the storytelling and I have so many examples in my own creative path that mirror that same experience. That's kind of what it's all about is just digging into the thing you're excited about and learning. And that's why, you know, when you're a kid, you're like, I dreamt of being this, but you're like, probably gonna become something that might not even exist or you don't even know about. And following that curiosity just helps you find your way. If you're true to it. I also love the term of the in-betweens. And I think most of us can relate in some way to the ebbs and flows of touring, whether we stay at home and work in our room all year round or not, because there are always these highs and lows of creativity of being between projects and ideas. And as I've mentioned recently, I find myself in a bit of an in-between moment. I'm in between things and in that creative and emotional downtime. I'm trying to keep things going and do things for me. And like Mark said, I'm learning to soak up the little moments that happen between and learn. One of my favorite parts was when Mark talked about the process of making space to visualize as a creative individual and team. He talked about how the managers and the attorneys and all those people that I was ranting about last week in my rant about the man, they can wait because none of it happens without the creativity. So what if we take that a little bit further and we consider it in our call to inaction and we just make them wait as part of our slower summer. Instead of giving you an action-oriented homework, I'm either just not going to give you anything or I'm gonna give you prompts of how to do less and access those pure joys of making stuff and that simple nourishment of creativity. Usually at the end of every episode we have a CTA, a call to action or a call to adventure to do stuff from the stuff that we just heard. But for the summer, we're gonna do a call to inaction. We're going to use this as inspiration to do less, to cut things out. And so when I thought about this in my own practice or Sophie's practice, I realized that everybody has different ways of doing this CTIA, this thing of make them wait. And so today, maybe you can reacquaint yourself with how do you give yourself space? How can you maybe even send some emails and say, "Hey, it's gonna be a little bit longer." Then I said it was gonna be, can we talk about what that could look like? Or the people that are pestering you, maybe it's not a deadline, but your people are like, "What about this? What about that? What are you doing this?" And you say, "You know what? No, it's not happening." Like I said, Sophie and I both have different ways of shutting the world out and meditating and these different methods really directly seem to benefit our creative practice. For Sophie, it's things like yoga, she uses the section at the end of class where it's dark and you lie still and quiet to visually follow a trail through her subconscious. In those scheduled down times, she's told me a bunch of times about how she's able to see how her artwork might progress next and ideas just kind of float to her. We realized she's extremely visual because I remember one time, I was like, "Hey, when you go at the end, see if you can come back with like a word this time." And she was in that meditation and she found herself not thinking of words but digging in sand, looking for a word like a literal object. It was just completely visual. For me, it's meditating and cutting out sensory things by getting into water, baths, the ocean, pools, like soaking up and cutting out all of those receptors and distractions seems to quiet my surroundings and then quiet my brain. And when I'm in water, I can clearly access ideas and thoughts in a way that's really different to Sophie because they're usually words that inspire me or give me clarity. So I'm gonna leave you with this call to inaction, to make space and time to shut down everything you possibly can, to be as alone with yourself as possible in order to access some pure vision and see what happens. Instead of trying to force something or even set the intention of, this is what I'm gonna think about, maybe just let some stuff float to you. Maybe you'll realize just how noisy and chaotic your life has been or your head has been or maybe you'll access a little idea or a problem to solve or maybe you'll just notice that very quiet but excited voice of your creative spark is still there. Maybe it's not a raging creative fire as it is when you're just totally pep to the max. Like maybe it's just one little pilot light. Maybe not even 21 pilot lights but just one little tiny flame still going if you can give it a little space to breathe and get oxygen and build in the nothing. Creative Pep Talk is a weekly podcast designed to help you build a thriving creative practice but that's the thing. It only works if it's an actual practice. It has to become a habit. We make this show every single week so that your creativity can go from being a thing that you do sometimes to a creative discipline to immerse you in a world of creatives that are doing the same where those kind of behaviors are normal. One way we help you stick to this is by sending you the new episodes via email to your inbox every single week so that you never miss a week. And we often add bonus content like pictures and links and extra related stuff to the episode that you're not gonna get just from the apps. Go to AndyJPizza.substack.com to sign up to the free email newsletter and I'll have the accountability to stay on the creative path and keep this street going and hopefully it will inspire you to do the same. And if you sign up right now, you'll get immediate free access to our e-booklet, the creative career path. It's a step-by-step roadmap for creating a project that is designed to unlock your dream creative clients and opportunities. Sign up at AndyJPizza.substack.com and let's keep this creative habit together. Creative PepTalk is part of the Pod Glamorit Network. You can learn more about Pod Glamorit at www.podglamorit.com. This has been another episode of Creative PepTalk, a weekly podcast companion for your creative journey. Hey, it's dangerous to go along. Take this podcast with you week in and week out by subscribing to the show to keep you company and keep the best creative practices top of mind so that little by little weekend and week out, you can make progress in your own creative practice. I'm your host, AndyJPizza. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and illustrator and I make this show not because I have it all figured out but because as a squishy creative artist type that's prone to big emotions, it takes a whole lot of creativity to just get out of bed sometimes. So every week I put out the ideas that are helping me stay disciplined and stay excited and have helped me stay on this creative path for the past 15 years plus in hopes that it might help someone else or at the very least help them feel less alone on their own creative journey. Massive thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to Connor Jones of Pending Beautiful for editing and sound design. Thanks to Sophie Miller for podcast assistance of all sorts. And most importantly, thanks to you for listening and until we speak again, stay peped up. (upbeat music) (bells chiming) (upbeat music) (gentle music) [BLANK_AUDIO]
This episode is for you if:
You find yourself trying on hats as you try to figure out what you want to be and what you should be doing
You’re someone who loves the creative process, the behind the scenes, the supporting roles
You’re in a creative career that has intense and exciting projects with weird down time between them
This episode is a conversation with Mark Eshleman @reelbearmedia the creative and content director for the band Twenty One Pilots.
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SHOW NOTES:
Co-Writing / Editing: Sophie Miller sophiemiller.co
Audio Editing / Sound Design: Conner Jones pendingbeautiful.co
Soundtrack / Theme Song: Yoni Wolf / WHY? whywithaquestionmark.com
Reel Bear Media: www.reelbearmedia.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reelbearmedia/
Twenty One Pilots https://www.twentyonepilots.com/
https://www.instagram.com/twentyonepilots/
Also mentioned:
Flor https://www.instagram.com/flor/
Skateboarding video: Girl- Yeah Right
Twenty One Pilots Graphic Design by Brandon Rike https://brandonrike.com/
Jim Henson documentary https://ondisneyplus.disney.com/movie/jim-henson-idea-man
'The last of Us' video Game and hit tv show
The Band 'Men I trust' https://menitrust.com/
Chappell Roan https://www.iamchappellroan.com/
