Creative Pep Talk
089 - Don't Chase the Glory with Tyler Deeb
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work, or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300, and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. Don't chase the glory, work hard, and be satisfied. (upbeat music) - Hey everybody, you're listening to the Creative PEPTALK Podcast. This show is about commercial art. Finding a balance between making good money and making great art. I'm your host, Andy J. Pizza, Andy J. Miller, Dr. Pizza, whatever you wanna call me, you can find this show on illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk. Illustration Age is our proud syndicate. Hey, go check out the tunes from the show. We've got the theme music from the band Y. Thank you, Yoni Wolf. That song is January 20-something, and the last song is "Berkeley" by Hirstback, and then all the interludes and preludes and all the ludes are metavari. Go check out that. It's soundcloud.com/metavari. Fantastic stuff. Thank you, Nate Eutish. (upbeat music) I'm probably one of those people that's easily excited. I get pretty stoked about things, especially things that I deeply care about, like the podcast, but I kid you not. I had a phenomenal conversation with my man, Tyler Deeb, for the show today. We got into the flow, into the zone. We were talking about so many interesting things. He has such an interesting take on all kinds of creative and business topics. If I had to describe Tyler and his work and his company, Miscellaneous Goods, I honestly, the way that I would describe it is next level. And I know that sounds like something that people throw around a lot, but I genuinely mean that the products that Miscellaneous Goods create are on a next level to the designer wares that are about online. And I, you know, I subscribe and love so much of the stuff that my friends make, but the stuff that they're making, the flask and the cards and the wallet, all these things that Miscellaneous Goods create, they're not, you know, as much as I like when a designer and an illustrator throws on a new kind of skin to a preexisting product, this stuff is tailor made from the ground up and it's the quality is just breathtaking. And I think Tyler really brings that sensibility and that attention to detail and his own unique voice to every single product. And he just relaunched his design portfolio at M-I-S-C-Design-Co.com. And in that, you see that next level thing, every single piece in there feels tailor-made from the ground up. It feels like there's a real thought going into this being appropriate and memorable from piece to piece. And I think that's what makes great design. You know, I think sometimes when you're in a smaller market like Louisville, which is where Tyler's from, I think you have to go crazy level up to get the kind of attention that the design deserves and this is a portfolio that you can't ignore. And it's been, I've known Tyler since I think 2011 and it's been a pleasure to kind of slowly get to know him through different happenstance, chance meetings and also to watch his portfolio just explode. He's got two Kickstarters, successful Kickstarters under his belt. One, the first one he did, they did these cards and he raised $146,000. And the card deck is absolutely breathtaking. Go check the stuff out. You can find his at miss-design-Co.com. And then it's the same thing except good. So M-I-S-C-Goods-Co.com. Go check that stuff out, it's so fantastic. And you're gonna really like this conversation. We had a great time. Tyler, thanks so much for being on the show. You are a boss. Thanks, man. I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new Journey of the True fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk or AndyJPizza.substack.com. And I hope to see you at this month's meetup. (upbeat music) - I don't even realize that I've been learning until like there's just kind of like this conversation. - Yes, in teaching, it's so clarifying. I found I just did a workshop on illustration and I'm like, I don't know if I was good at illustration before teaching that workshop. - Right, right. And now you realize there's things that you know that other people don't even have a context for. - Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, the other side of sending questions is that I think it's really funny that it's one of those things where if you prepare really well and then you go into the interview and you don't do any of the questions, the interview will go well. So then you'll think, oh, I don't have to prepare that well and then you'll do one and it won't go well. But you need the preparation. I don't know what it's like false confidence or I don't know what it is, but yeah, you know. - Yeah, I've heard that before in other ways and that you create a framework and then you allow yourself to move very loosely within that framework. And so if you hold suit tightly to the framework, so the same thing goes with like business and anything. Like, if you hold on to the project, okay, so we started making projections this year for the first time and it was like living in a cage because I could not be satisfied unless we hit that number and so part of the reason is that we were putting like some strengths or I was putting some strengths in the company that were making it not viable unless we hit some of those goals. And so that was kind of a trap that I put myself in. But now I've been able to loosen up and there's not as much strict goals in the company. - But there is some goals and so that you can have like an idea what you need to achieve, but also allow it to like move more fluidly within those. - So being a weirdo, I don't know. I found that I'm like as much of a visual illustrator as I am like a verbal illustrator. So I constantly am like coming up with verbal illustrations to like say, oh, you're referencing is this idea that I keep going back to, especially recently is the balance between you have to make waves and ride waves. And like, I think people's nature is to do one or the other. And so like for me, my nature at least in business or the things that I decide to care about, I'm like making waves. Like I want to, this thing, I want to make it happen, but I found that like it never happens. You never make something and it happens the exact same way that you wanted it to. And if you don't have those like open hands, then you miss the real opportunity as it comes. Like you needed to make that momentum, but then you also need to be open to how it evolves on its own. But I think, yeah, I think that that's really interesting. And I wanted to talk about, I want to talk a little bit about creative, your creative morning talk. And I want to talk about, it seems like there was a big theme of like letting go and not holding things too tightly or holding the outcomes too tightly. So before I do that though, your talk was called work hard and be satisfied. Do you want to talk a little bit about like what that means? - Yeah, when I was asked to do the creative morning's talk, I had, I was, you know, providence that it was about work because that's probably the theme that I think about the most. And it's not like how to make good work as much as what does it mean to work? And we just have so many different voices coming at us about what work should look like and what you should accomplish in work. And we've been receiving that sort of information ever since we were in school. - True. - And I really felt convicted to have like a transparent conversation about like the struggles that I had and working for an institution. And so yeah, so the realization I came through that really hard experience was that I cannot look to work to be my identity and I can't look to find approval for my life, for my peers through the work that I make. And, but that doesn't mean that you give up and that you stop working, that there's something inherently good about just working hard. And we all know that feeling, that feeling is just like everywhere and everything that we do when we really put a strong effort to it. And so how do you put like a strong effort towards something to make it really good without like hanging on the approval of your peers. And then the like the third part of that talk was to be satisfied because I think, yeah, I say something in the talk that's like a satisfaction is as much a discipline of the mind as it is a reaction to the circumstance. And what I'm trying to say with that is that sometimes the reaction to whatever you do, it won't be good. And you're, I think it's so important that you practice satisfaction and that you're able to be present to the other people in your life because when you're dissatisfied you're, you kind of like turn inward and it all, it becomes all about you and how important it is that you're filled this way and that's not fair, especially, you know, that's not fair no matter what stage of life you're in, but especially if you're a husband or a wife or a father or a mother. Like that is just, it's very toxic for your family. - Yeah. - And so you have to, for the sake of your family, for the sake of your friends or whoever it is that depends on you to be present. Like you really need to just learn to be satisfied. Like, yeah, it wasn't that good, everyone hated it. But you put everything into it and it was a clear conscience and I didn't slack. And who can really hold you accountable to anything more than that? I mean, that's, that should be enough. And if you even don't do that, you should be able to let it go and like pick yourself up and try again. - True. And I wanna come back to that idea of like enjoying the process but before I jump over there, I just heard this on the latest Tim Ferriss podcast, he interviews, Chase Jarvis, who I'm not super familiar with. But they talked about something I found really, really interesting. It's kind of like, you know, people that think that they're gonna be generous when they have tons of money, but they've practiced not being generous that whole time. So by the time they have money, they don't know how to be generous. And it's similar to that in that, they talked about this Buddhist monk who said that if you were washing the dishes and you're gonna reward yourself with a peach afterwards. And so the whole time you're washing the dishes, you're thinking about the peach. By the time you're eating the peach, your brain is trained to be looking forward to the next thing. So you won't enjoy eating the peach either. And so that was kind of like really intense for me because I really, really struggle being present. And actually I think, I think one of my main strengths is being future-oriented and visioning, you know, thinking in terms of vision and what the future could look like. And I think there's lots of good things about that, but I definitely, especially as a father and as a husband and in work, struggle to just enjoy what's going on right in this moment, regardless of what it is. - And here's what's crazy is that we have like so many testimonies from people all across of that it's not enough. Like there's a Johnny Cash song and I can't remember it. And maybe I'll email it to you later. But it's about, you know, like the perspective that no, like people say, "If only I had that, then I would be this." And I remember Jim Carrey did an interview several years back where he's just talking about like, people think that his life is just so wonderful 'cause he has all his money and all his fame. And it's not. And then you have like that interview with Tom Brady where he's asking-- - I was thinking of that too, yeah. - Yeah. Like when he won his third Super Bowl ring and they're like, he's like, "It's empty." - He's like, well, they said, "What's one of your favorite?" And he said, "The next one." - Yes, exactly. - And then the Jim Carrey quote is that, which I think is just super good is that he says, "I wish everybody could be ultra famous "and have all of their dreams come true "just so they know that it's not enough." - Yes. - Yeah, I think that's really good. - And then so you have those testimonies on the outside and then you have the one from your own life, which he say, "Five years ago, I would have freaked out "to know that I was where I am now." I mean, I was very lowly in my design career at that point. And to know that people wanna talk to me about design and business and that I have a company that is doing well, and even to look at my work, if I looked at my work five years ago now, I'd be like, "Wow, I did that." - Yeah. - And yeah, but it's not. And so remember that. I mean, remember that five years from now, you probably, maybe, maybe not, will be somewhere that you would have envied now and you still feel the same way that you feel now. - And I love that. And I also think, I always try to temper this idea that we, this idea of duality that says, every, it's easier for your brain to understand things in terms of opposites. So it's like, if what we're saying is true, then the opposite must be wrong. So like achieving or thinking about the future or trying to do better, you know, whatever it is, then all of that must be wrong. When really, I think it's actually better to hold them in kind of some kind of tension where it says, "I am doing more meaningful work than I was five years ago. Some of the fruits of that are sweeter than they used to be. But there are still things that are the same. That there's a level of not, if I'm not learning how to be satisfied with a little bit, I'm not gonna be satisfied with a lot. But if I learn how to do that now, I'll be able to do that later." - Yeah, I also talk about, you're absolutely right. And that is important to recognize. It is, work is sweeter now. - Yeah, it is. - Yeah, and it's better. - Absolutely. - And there was an illustration that I used in the talk that was about like, you know, who's more satisfied, Donald Trump or, you know, this poor person. - Yes. - And it really depends on that person. Like, but the point is that there are poor people that are as satisfied or more satisfied than wealthy people. And we just have to like, it's a you problem. And it's not, it's not a circumstance problem. And yeah, I don't know where to go from there, but. - Well, let me say this, so would you tell us a story or take us back to a moment in that like earlier time before you started having some of that realization, some of those times where you were really unsatisfied where you were. And it'd be great if you could paint a picture, a transparent picture of a time where you were really struggling in a legitimate way. And it doesn't even have to have an app happy ending. - Yeah, I think the point in which I was most depressed was about eight months into my job at Southern Seminary. Southern Seminary is a theological, oh sorry. Southern Seminary is a theological seminary here in Louisville. - Yeah, yeah. - And I had been always working in a very loose way up to that point before I started that job. And I did some freelance design, but it was very mediocre and it was not paying very well. And I was working in a coffee shop. But I had a very specific vision for the path of my career. You know, I knew that I wanted to capture a certain genre of design and I wanted to be in control of how that worked. Well, Noelle became, Noelle and I became pregnant and I was forced to take this job. And the job was just, I mean, it was institutional. So it was against this whole like arrogant position that I'd taken in my career where I was going to pave the way and I was going to be the most important figure in this. And it was saying, no, you're not. You're a part of a team of people very different than you and that require you to hit deadlines on projects that you would never have chosen for yourself. And it's really, it's amazing because I had so much to be thankful for. And it's almost embarrassing to look at now and say that I was as distraught as I was because because I was putting so much hope into being a celebrity designer or being a distinguished illustrator that I wasn't able to take something very good and give thanks for it and be present. And for eight months, I would lose sleep over it and I would just wear my wife's ear out. Like it was so patient. - Yeah. - Go ahead, what are you going to say? - I was just going to say that, you know, my story is very, very similar to that and I'm not going to go into it, but I very much relate to that. Had really similar experiences. Were there any specific moments that you were feeling like tons of anguish or like, is there any specific thing in your memory? Like this moment, I was like so upset. Like I remember one time, so when I graduated, I had to work at Subway. It was, I graduated right at the recession, no jobs. And I was in England and the economy was really bad. I was already working at Subway, like through college. And I remember like going home on the bus because I didn't have a license or a car in England. And I remember just like praying, like screaming internally of like, I have to not do this. This is like killing everything in me. I was like, and I was so desperate to like, please anything that could just instantly change where I'm at because I cannot stand this. And it is embarrassing to think about, in terms of I was making sandwiches. Like, you're a sandwich artist. I was a sandwich artist before I was a real artist. That's where I learned all of my artistry. But was there any moments that you can remember that, in particular, that where you are feeling that pain? Yeah, I think that the anguish, and it really was, and it compared it to other people's lives, it's wrong to say it was anguish. But for me at the time, under my circumstances, it was. And it was when I was walking in a very beautiful park here in Louisville called Cherokee Park. And I was walking, and we were pushing the stroller with royal in it. And like I was saying, I was just wearing, it was just an hour monologue of me just talking about how unsatisfied I was and how much it sucked to have to do the work that I was doing. And again, Noel was just so patient and so gracious to me during that time. Because I was being a baby. I was being just like a child, really. And now that I have children that are older, I see that same behavior in them, which is like, I gave you an ice cream cone, but now you win a brownie too, and you cannot be happy until you get that brownie. And you're eating the green ice cream right now. And you're still looking at the brownie and going back to them. I have kids too, and I have the same thing. And yeah, and it's in me. You know what? I think that aggravation that you feel as a parent, like where we go to the zoo, it's all that they wanted to do. And then they're like, well, what are we doing after this? And I think what makes it why you get so angry for me is because I'm like, you too, like you're just like me. And I hate this. I hate that you are-- you're going to have that same struggle. And I totally-- I get it. But yeah, I feel you there. But what's cool is that we can be fathers that can empathize. And I don't know if you could say that about your father or my father. And I think that's a cool opportunity that we have. And to help train them against that behavior earlier on, and like with more compassion and more empathy. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel like I come at parenting in a more-- in a less like, here's the way it is. So get with the program or have a consequence. And a more like, here's why I think we should take this path. This is why this path is going to be productive, good for you, and ultimately, better-- and I try to-- I mean, I don't know. I'm sure that-- To use reason. I mean, that's why-- To use reason. I totally do, yeah. So for me, one of the big realizations-- and I think it's similar to what you're saying-- is when you're really, really driven by outcomes, even when you get the outcome, it's not satisfying. But when you learn to enjoy and draw and push into the process of making things, that was a big realization for me, like, I really just want to make money. I want to make a living doing the kinds of things that I'm good at and enjoy doing. And I realize I don't even really care if there's awards, or ceremonies, or a following, or anything on the other side of that. I really just want to do work that I'm good at, which makes it feel meaningful, and be able to pay my bills and all that. And there was definitely a shift for me where worrying about-- I don't know. It's embarrassing to talk about wanting that design, illustration, fame, whatever that may be. It's embarrassing partially because it's so small. It's really just a really small-- It's so small. Like, none of these people are famous. That's the thing. So it's even more embarrassing. But then, but I do think there was a big shift for me, too, where it was like, you know what? I don't care who sees it. I don't care, mainly because I can tell that all of that part is empty. I want to enjoy the stuff that I'm doing, and it'd be like a natural extension of who I am. And so, does that resonate with you? Yeah, the reason I had to give it up was because I was so sick of being distraught. I was so tired of being uncomfortable with my circumstance that I had to just go. I mean, it was like fighting-- it was like, I don't know, like fighting the current. Like, you're saying right in the way. I was pushing against the current of my life. And I finally just let the river take me downstream. And as I was going downstream, I was starting to be like, hey, this is actually pretty chill. I'm just floating downstream. And these people that I'm working with are actually not people that I can't get along with. And this work is not something that can't train me. And so I really kind of just turned this situation on its head. And I said, OK, I'm going to stop being a little baby about this. And I'm going to start working at this particular project really hard and let it train me and use this as an opportunity to get better and also like to get to know people better. And when I ended up leaving two years after, I didn't leave with a huge overwhelming relief. I left with like, I'm glad that I'm leaving. That was a really good experience. But it wasn't like, get me out of here. I can't wait. Tell off my boss and just get out. Yeah. You are a kimbrewer and half baked. You, you, you, you're cool. [MUSIC PLAYING] There's people that really are not switched on at all about life. And then you have people that are switched on. And then those people at some point have to go through a death to that thing. And you know, see if this resonates with you. But like, when I met you, it must have been 2011, something like that. I remember meeting you and thinking, oh, here's someone who's like really switched on. Like they're into it. They're excited about it. They're passionate about what they're doing. We had a good conversation. And I just felt like that kinship of like really being into the stuff that you're doing. And I feel like that is a very different type of person, type of energy to people that are really not switched on. And you talked about in your talk that before you went out to, I think it was California, they were really not switched on. What do you think? What do you think it was in particular? If you could trace it back to a moment or a thing or, you know, a place where your mindset really shifted from being apathetic about life or whatever to, all right, I'm hungry to do something. Yeah, I grew up the third born of brothers. And I really-- I was never really forced to take responsibility for my life. And that went on and on and on until like 20. And I always had an opinion that was different than other people. But I never really understood what the point of like exercising that opinion was. And so the time that I got most inspired was through a friend, Anne Mars, who was a self-taught designer at a Nashville working at a record label. And he was older than I was. And we were hanging out one day and we were walking back to my apartment and he got a phone call. And it was from a band that was touring. And they needed to merchandise like immediately. So he went up into my apartment, started designing it. Three hours later, he sent them the artwork, approved it. They wired him the money. And he had $300 like, no, which isn't a ton. But he had $300 for like three hours of work, which is not bad. And for me, as a 20-year-old working at a coffee shop, not knowing what I was doing with my life, I dropped out of school twice, two colleges. And I just saw something amazing in that. I saw a guy that was able to live without being too tied down to any one thing. He was working from his laptop. He made $300 to three hours working from his friend's couch. He was working with an industry that was, especially to a 20-year-old, really attractive. The music industry, lights and music and touring. And so I saw it. So I think what first got me excited was my ego, that I was able to-- that with some hard work, I could find myself in the same position as him and interacting with influential people and working in an interesting industry. And so as I was able to open that, I was already signed up to do a year-long missionary trip in Oakland, California. And so when I moved there, I had bought a laptop and got an Adobe suite and just started teaching myself. That was that high. I had done construction work up to that point. I had done service industry stuff. I had worked a lot of different jobs, and nothing really felt like it clicked. And I would even say, in an arrogant way, nothing felt like it was good enough for me yet. And that industry just felt like, OK, that's something I can sink my teeth into. I do think even just to pause you there about in terms of construction, I think about in terms of that, I think there's a real component of hope for the future where someone-- I think if you're working-- when I was working at Subway, I feel like my brother, my older brother, who's a finance guy, more typically gifted in a traditional sense in all those ways, I think for him working at Subway didn't feel soul-crushing because he's like, you know what? I could be the manager of this person. I could open up a few stores and see that seat of hope where it's like, I know that it's almost like I'm not good enough for this position. Therefore, it's not good enough for me because I'm at the low-- nobody wants to be at the lowest rung forever. And so if you think, best case scenario, I'm at the lowest rung, this is not good enough for me. I think at least for me, that's kind of how I-- you know, unraveled. Well, and you know what, my start wasn't very much different than that, it was just a very different industry. So yeah, yeah. So like I get what you're saying, like for your brother, that is a way in to a life or like to a career choice. A lifelong pursuit. Yeah, yeah. And mine was cleaning screens at a screen print shop for four months for free, just so they would hire me. Yes, right. For $7.25 an hour. So you actually put those jobs next to each other. They're actually not that different. They're just very different industries. They pay the same amount. They both have a very low ceiling. What was like when-- you know, where was it going to go from there? You know, like managing screen printers. You know, like that was-- and so-- but because I knew that I wanted to get in the creative industry, and I wanted to break in, there was no other place that I could break in that would take this nobody and allow him to kind of work in this creative space. That wasn't soul crushing for me. That was life being. That was like definitely one of the big starts to becoming the creative industry for sure. And I think-- so what I kind of hear you saying, I don't know why I hear it in like an analogy. But I think about it like, to me, I think there comes a point where it's like an equation being really switched on and being super into it, into that place where you need to be, I think. Maybe starts with hope and hope is like a lump of coal though. And you actually need-- I always think about-- you know, Adam Garcia? Yeah. OK. He has the-- the pressure is good for you. He has the little diamond. And I think about hope is like the foundation. But without pressure, you never go to that next level. He never doesn't switch on all the way. And so, was-- do you think that Oakland was part of that pressure? No. Oakland was the opposite. Like, Oakland was like freedom. OK. Right. So the job, the job, was the pressure. Maybe there was no pressure. This is a new theory I'm testing out on you. I actually don't think the pressure is good for you. Really? Yeah. Let's talk about that. So I think-- and this was kind of something-- Thanks. Do you hear that, Adam Garcia, if you're listening? Pressure isn't good for you. Yeah, but I think-- I think it's a conversation, definitely. I think it would be wrong to assume either way. And so I think it's probably somewhere in between, like where the pressure is good for you, but too much of the pressure is bad for you or something like that. It goes back to what we were talking about before, about working hard and being satisfied. I feel like if you're constantly under this pressure, then you're making your work the most important thing in your life. And for me, and the way that I've chosen to live, it can't be without destroying other areas of my life. Not to mention destroying your work, because creativity is so much about planning and freedom and all that. Let me say something about that. I meant to say this earlier. My work became so much more powerful when I let go of approving my peers. And since then, it has only gotten better, because I do not do it for anyone else but for myself. And I just try to make sure that I honor the discipline that I put myself under. So whatever project it is, I try to make sure that I'm giving it the attention and the work that my conscience feels it deserves. And at the end of it, if people like it, that's great. But if people don't like it, that's OK, too. Because there is-- think about the enormous spectrum of art and how so much of it you personally hate and other people personally love, because so much of it is objective. And so you can't try to bear yourself in this little niche and just look around to this little circle and say, who's watching and who approves of it. And because that's just so vain. It's like you're talking to 100 people in a world of eight. Yes. Oh, yeah. And it just doesn't make any sense. It just seems so stupid. And I'm planning my next episode. I've started planning them out about two weeks in advance. So my next episode is literally about not wanting to be cool. And just this idea of being OK with polarizing people. And the analogy I go back to is this idea that if you were really fantastic at making little balls of rice, you wouldn't offend anybody. Nobody would be like, oh, that's disgusting. I hate that. But if you throw in some raw fish and fish eggs and seaweed, all of a sudden, there are lots of people that are going to think that's disgusting. But they're going to have a lot of people that are super pumped about it. And I think you have to be with that white knuckle clenching of, I need people to love me. I need everybody to love me and celebrate me. You're never going to do anything interesting. Nobody is ever going to be that excited about it. I've definitely found that for myself. Let's go back, though, too, unless you want to say anything about that. Yeah. I think what was his name again, the guy that made the poster? Adam Garcia? You know, if Adam Garcia is open to, like, co-art direction, I'd say, like, sometimes the pressure can be good for you. Let's do a new poster and where we put some-- I could see that in, like, 80s graffiti across that. But I think that-- let me ask you this, though, too. Do you think that you could have had that realization without going through that pressure, though? It's holiday shopping time, y'all. It's time to freak out. Not. Because "Uncommon Goods" is here to make it easy. Listen, all I did was click the "For Her" section on this site. And I instantly saw five things that I could get, Sophie. Don't tell her, but I'm thinking either the National Park sweaters, the tea advent calendar. There's also, just below that, little bubble tea kit for my oldest. And then I saw one of these, you know, the retro little viewfinder orange real viewer things. But you can make it your own photos. OK, it might not make sense. Just, you have to go check it out yourself. Here's the thing. I have seriously never seen so many good options for gifts online in one place. And unlike lots of other convenient options, shopping "Uncommon Goods" actually supports small businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time off for uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary. No, I don't think I've gotten that realization without going through that pressure. And the pressure was-- and that's the thing, too. Like, Adam is right. And just, but it's such a big concept that it can be wrong, too, which is like, you know, like, what is the pressure? How is it applying to you? He was around you, all that. So in this case, the pressure was my own-- like the gratification of my ego and having to find a way to get rid of that, like release that pressure. And like, the reason I couldn't release it was because I wasn't open to not being important. And when I decided that it's OK that I'm not important, then it was like a release valve and the pressure-- so I don't let the pressure build up anymore. But I definitely don't stop working, man. Like, I'm working all the time. And when I'm not working, I'm thinking about work. And I create time for my family. And it doesn't mean that I neglect those other things. But maybe to keep on kind of opening that concept up, maybe the pressure is good for you. But like, you've got to go of containing that pressure and letting it just build on your shoulders as if the world depends on you to get that dumbest design out the door. Yeah, totally. The world is not waiting on you. No one cares. That's the thing. No one cares about that. And one of the things that was really helpful for me in terms of tactical, so if you find yourself being in that situation where you feel all of that pressure and you feel like you have all that giant burden. For me, one of the things that was really helpful was going to conferences, meeting the people that I really looked up to. Every time I would go to an event and I'd spend a considerable amount of time early on in my career with people that I really respected, I kept realizing that they didn't care about any of that. Like they didn't care about, they maybe they were design famous, but that never had drove them or that's not what led them to being great. And I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule. But I kept leaving those situations feeling really silly and thinking, wait a second, do I care about this work or not? And if I do, let's focus on that. Let's focus on what I care about in terms of this process. And that was really helpful for me. But yeah. So let's talk about, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about, I had phrased it like this. I have this idea right now about, you know, we have all the resources to build our own pyramids. Like if designers and illustrators are the brick makers, we don't have to make these pyramids for Pharaoh anymore. That's kind of the way that I put it. And again, I'm not trying to be, I'm not, so I'm the opposite of a contrarian and I'm not a rebel in any way. So my dad is like very corporate and I love, like I love his whole journey and I celebrate his corporate, he works for a really fantastic organization. I'm not against the man per se, but I am against companies. A lot of the situations in the creative world, I think are not always, they don't always have the best interests of creative people in mind. And I think a lot of times, some of these really truly valuable creative people will make this beautiful thing, give it off to a business person and that business person can make a hundred times what they pay that person for. And so, you know, I've become increasingly more interested in building my own pyramids and I've been fascinated to watch you transition your focus to how much time are you spending on client work now? - For the last eight months, it was zero. And then, but now, I've learned that that wasn't the smartest move and that 'cause I was like not accepting work. So, clients were coming and I was turning it down 'cause I was really wanting to focus on a season of like large growth for miscellaneous goods. And now I realize I've learned something really important which is when a company has the more cash, the more cash stream or like what is it? - Cash flow. - The more cash flow streams that you're able to have the more that you have coming into your company from different angles the better because some things get slow and other things get fast. And so, we have three in our company, we have now my graphic design, we have wholesale and then we have like point of sales through e-commerce. And so now I'm doing about 20, 25% with design with clients and it's also really important for my company because my company is such a design focus brand that like I need to keep on like showing people that I'm a designer and if I close that then-- - Was it was launching your site part of that effort? Yeah, yeah. Site looks great, love the way all that looks awesome. But I'm really fascinated about this topic because as I'm doing more creative pep talk stuff and I'm so passionate about it, and my passion has not disappeared but it's gotten a lot smaller for like when you get an email with a brand name that's really big that it feels, it's not as exciting as it used to be. And I enjoy the process of doing my own stuff more than ever. And so I was tempted too to be like, I'm just gonna not accept anything and I'm gonna focus all my energy on that. And then it's funny that you should say like me being a practicing illustrator really impacts being able to talk about being a commercial artist. So I think, yeah, I totally feel you there. And I think the other side of that that's really interesting for me is that do you find that the client work informs the other work? Like is there, instead of just all, instead of it just being pure, it's not that doesn't affect-- - No, it's the other way around my personal work. Now it informs my client work. - Yeah, yeah. - And so the themes that I'm learning, even the way that I'm able to problem solve through my personal projects and the ways that I'm figuring out how to draw things or design things or create themes or get them manufactured, well, whatever it is that the trials that I've gone through through my, you could say, passion projects inform my client work. And so it actually makes my client work more attractive and more strong. - No, it doesn't go the other way. It doesn't go the other way. Like, I don't ever really come to something in my client work that really informs my passion projects. - Yeah. And I definitely think that in terms of your unique voice, the website that you just launched and the work that you're showing there, client work included has such a strong narrative and a strong perspective compared to stuff that you're doing five years ago, not to dis that stuff, but just to say that exploring all that stuff on your own, that now you have this very specific voice that other people can come to you for, rather than you being a chameleon project project. I definitely see that. But I think about it in terms of, I feel like the best crafts people in terms of like the music world are the people that have several bands. So they have their like, their little band where they do their thing and they're really precious about it and they try to make it as good as possible. But then they play around with a bunch of other things and you know, that keeps them loose. And yeah, I've always liked that. Like Bonavir, Justin Vernon is someone who I think of like, he seems to have so many projects going on, but then he does laser focus on his own thing and he seems to like take and learn and experiment, so. - Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, so I really liked that. But what, and I also liked this idea of having diverse streams of income and do you consider yourself to be a business person? - Not until recently. - Let's talk about that. - Yeah, so when I decided to really focus my energy, I'm a miscellaneous goods company and try to make that really profitable. I kept on running set hurdles that would prevent it from being profitable unless I figured it out. And so I've been chipping away and then I started meeting with business people that have been doing business for 20 years and have made billions of dollars off, millions of dollars off their businesses and they've counseled me and so I've met with lawyers and other small business owners. And so I didn't realize it, but I actually had been building up quite a bit of understanding on how business works and how it gets made. - Yeah, so let me ask you this. Two questions. The first one is what, in that space between art and business, how is your opinion or thoughts evolved or changed? Was there any part of that that surprised you in this kind of new state? - Yeah, it surprises me how less money goes when you own a business. So I would been used to working in either an office job which your whole check goes to your pocket and then freelance, which is pretty much the same, the whole check, you buy your computer and your programs and that's like your only overhead and maybe rent if you have rent. With business, it's just totally different. And like, I'm just used to writing enormous checks to my vendors and then receiving huge amounts of money and hoping that the big amount that came in offsets the big that went out. - Yes. - And so yeah, I mean, that's been the biggest surprise was like only making 30%, 20 to 30% of what you're generating opposed to graphic design which it's like 98% of what you generate goes in your pocket. And so that's been really managing that money has been really hard. Was that a big mindset shift? I feel like I'm in that zone right now where illustration and design feels a little bit like alchemy in terms of like taking a piece of paper and then turning it into 500 bucks. And you're like, at first that seems so magical because you're like, man, I just, I have like no overhead, I just created, but then I feel like you get to a point where there's a ceiling where like, all it all comes down to how often I'm doing that. And it gets really tight in that way. But then to then go from there to, all right, now I'm thinking about being more of a business person. Were there hurdles for you? Like they're taking those risks of like, now I'm gonna fork out 20,000 or whatever. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. Can you repeat the question? - The question is just, were there like emotional hurdles to taking those risks like early on? Like because for me personally, I feel like I'm kind of making some of those transitions now and I'm thinking it's, it was, I loved keeping overhead really, really low. And now that I'm stood before, all right, now I'm gonna invest in this product or I'm gonna invest in this space or how did you get through that? - That actually wasn't very difficult for me. I kind of like, I've been born with an ability to gamble. - Yeah. - Like, and I'm, I luckily, married my best friend who is very trusting of me and it allows me to gamble. - Yep. - And so I, but that is a very important part of running a business is gambling. - Yes. - Because you're basically saying that I have a vision that I really believe in and I'm really willing to throw my own personal money at it to try to achieve it. And other people who look at you, especially the ones with business degrees, are gonna say you're crazy. And you just have to believe that you have to believe. - Oh man, I love this, this is so good. And I'm a risk taker too. So I am a risk taker for sure. And it's definitely in my nature. But I think you cut, you hit on something really interesting that in order to gamble, you really do have to believe. - You have to. And. - What, but what grew that in you? Where did, how did you, I have some guesses of maybe what causes you to believe in yourself, bet on yourself, be willing to do that. But what do you think it is that gave you that confidence? - Well, I think, I think there's something to say about, if you're 22, it doesn't mean that you can't gamble hands, but it's, you don't have a lot of experience in your industry, you might want to wait until you have a little bit. But, you know, there's been plenty of amazing stories of, and some of us are most successful tech people are under 22 that had ideas and gambled on them and have expensive. But for me, in my story, it wouldn't have worked. Like, you need to have a certain, you've had to have been present for a while to understand what you're making and if there's a market for it. - Let me come up, go ahead, sorry. - Yeah, and so for me, I really believed in the things that I made, and then I had an enormous amount of affirmation to the Kickstarter. - That's what I had to say. - But I had already, but I had already kind of taken a pretty big gamble. I'd worked for free for myself for three months before that Kickstarter. And it's because it's stubbornness, it's wanting to see your theme, the way that you want it to go, and to really believe that it can be successful. I do think capitalizing on a big win like that, if you don't know, Tyler did a Kickstarter back in 2012 that raised $146,000 and I'm sure that that really boosted your confidence to believe, for me recently, some of the recent wins that I've had have made me realize how safe I've been playing in all myself, and then thinking, actually, there's this well of potential that I should have been hedging my bets a lot further, and actually I'd be in better places had I done that, which has made me encourage other people like, you probably have way more potential than you think that you do. So yeah, I don't know, I find that really interesting. - Yeah, the Kickstarter was shocking. I mean, people say, "Were you surprised?" And it's hard to really authentically say how surprised it was, but my asking was 6,000, 250, and I legitimately had a conversation with someone before the launch, I was like, "I'm terrified, I'm not going to make that amount." And so to go from being terrified, I thought best case scenario was 20, and then very best, beyond my dream's success. And then I thought if I could just make 6,000, that'd be great. But yeah, it did give me a huge boost of confidence, and it also gave me some working capital to make bigger gambles. And I did, I reinvested most of the profit from that. And I also think, a lot of people ask me questions about Kickstarter, and so I'll give a quick kind of overview of what up. - Yeah, I would love for you to do that, but I don't want to focus too much on that either. - Yeah, yeah, $146,000 in Kickstarter for me ended up being about $78,000 profit. And, but that also had to cover six and a half months of work. So it was a good takeaway, for sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, $10,000 a month is really great. - True. - But it's also very different than how people normally perceive it, which is you made $146,000 in one month, and they're just not the same thing. And I know you know very much of what that never looks quite like it does on screen. - No, absolutely. Yeah, that's really good. And I was gonna, that was the question, the only question I had was tell us a little bit about what that money actually looks like, 'cause it's actually really different. Let me ask you this. So we can talk a little bit about profit margins and all that kind of stuff. I'm totally open to that. I think a lot of times when we start talking about anything, people get really caught up in the dirt of something. But I don't, I'm guessing that's not ultimately the strength of miscellaneous goods. What do you think more than anything? If you had to say this is the top strength, this is the number one thing that it has going for it, what do you think it is about your brand that makes it work? - I mean, I would say that the greatest strength that the company has is my perspective. And I don't even say that as a way to stroke my ego because who am I to have even built my perspective? It's not like I sat down with a pile of books and I said, this is who I'm going to be. And no, this is like my personality in my perspective has been built by my parents and by my friends and by my teachers and by my church and by-- - In your DNA, do I agree? - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as a father with sons that are totally different from each other, we are born with certain qualities that we didn't ask for and they're just there. And so, so again, I said that not to stroke my ego but I think I have a perspective that I've really learned to love and really learned to accept that really comes out in the products that I make. And if I could like describe that and I've tried over the years to describe that, I'd say I like things that are made with a lot of intentionality in really simple ways for utilitarian purposes that could have existed 100 years ago, could exist today and could exist 100 years from now. And so, we made a really conscious decision in a company not to build any of our products around technology because my perspective is that I want something that Andy could hand to your children 30 years from now. If it's the wallet or if it's the flash or if it's deck of playing cards or whatever, I want that to be practical for them. And I also wanted to feel like if it was showed up 100 years ago, that no one would be like, what the hell is this thing? - Yeah, yeah. - And so, that's just something that I feel really excited about making products like that. And so, my voice within the products is really, I think, really important parts of the company. - Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And that's why I asked you because I think, it's so easy to, whenever people want to mimic someone's success or learn something from someone's success, I feel like a lot of times you get so caught up in the details and think, oh well, they did a Kickstarter and they did it this way. And these were the back, this is how they did the reward system and all of those things. And you end up coming back to this point of like, it really has more to do with the perspective and the vision and the heart of the thing is authentic to who you are. And I know being authentic is like, totally, it was a buzzword, now it's even worse than what that is. I don't know what that's called, but it's true that, and I think one of the biggest struggles for creative people is even Michael Jordan wanted to be a baseball player, right? And I think, and there's something about like, we're not impressed with ourselves. We're not, it's not interesting to us to be ourselves. And I think it's, I love how I feel like you're, what's the word you call like fatalism? Like that, so that's so not me at all. I'm not, it doesn't give me peace, it doesn't. I don't, every time I come across that aspect of your company, when I first did, I was shocked by it. Like, whoa, what did that playing card just say to me? And so, but at the same time, I think there's this thing about like, I wanna go back to my friend. I met one of my best friends in middle school was a guy named Matt Langworthy. And I claimed this story as the discovery of true, cool. And he was this football player, linebacker dude, really funny and like charismatic. And we met at this party and he was like going on and on about the new in sync record. And I remember, and he wasn't joking at all. And he, and I remember thinking for the first time like, this is genuinely cool. Like, I don't know, and I, and it totally broke all of my perceptions of what cool was. - Yeah, categories. - Yeah, but just that authenticity of dialing in to who you really are and the power of that. And I think that you've really done that with miscellaneous goods. And I think it not like, just because it's not initially my cup of tea and that fatalism or whatever it is, or it's not what I would make. And maybe that shocks me a little bit initially. But then I grow to appreciate, but this is who Tyler is. Then I love it. So I think you're totally right about that. Did you have anything to say on that before I go to like rapid fire mode? - Yeah, no, so I would definitely say that my work has like a strong aspect of like fatalism to it. And I think the reason that I choose to do that is because I feel like the culture that I live in, that I brought up and has been so overly self-important. And everyone is a sparkling star. And everything that you do is important and go out and make something amazing today and go hustle your brains out. And I find it to be a lie. And that it's not totally untrue, but it's not all the truth. And so I don't believe that nothing matters and that we're all just going to die. So why even try? I don't, so that's kind of like fatalism edits. Like, yeah, yeah, most severe place. But I like to throw, I like the law about these ideas to people because I see, I don't see there being a balance to the way that we're talking to each other about work and the way that we're talking to each other about what's important. And they're both true. We are special, we are unique stars, but we also are people that are gonna die. We're all so obsessed. Years. And 70 years, and that's nothing. I'm just reading right now about William Willeforce. That dude was amazing. True. And no one can really even talk about who he is. And he literally changed the way that we live our lives now. I mean, he single-handedly- The best case scenario for your life. Oh, gosh, yeah. Yeah. And it's likely- Social norm. Yeah. And you're forgotten in 200 years. You're likely to be forgotten. Let alone if you design a super nice deck of playing cards. Yeah. Right? So, but no, and I love that. And I think for me, it's like, I love that perspective. And there's that Neil's bore quote of like, the opposite of a profound truth might be another profound truth. And I totally, you know, there's a degree in which I really subscribe to that idea. But I love that. I love the, I think it's also just a breath of fresh air to be in commerce, not selling happiness, like selling a totally different perspective is just very unique. And I think so much of doing well is like being different. Like, you know, no other deck of cards says those things to you and, or flask or whatever you're, the mirror. I love the mirror. I'm such a fan of that, it's beautiful. Okay, I've got three really quick questions. Just to cap it off. The first one is, who's the most influential or favorite designer of the past for you? Because I have a hard time placing that. Like I don't, I don't exactly know who's influenced you. Yeah. Yeah, so I didn't go. This is a hard question for me. No, man, good. That's good. I didn't go to design school. So I never had like a formal education. And so I have studied work on my own, but I've never had like. I'm the same as you. So I feel you on that. And I'd say two artists that really inspired me. So they weren't even designers. Well, I mean, they had a design eye, but they were more fine artists was Basquiat. Yeah. And David Hockney, and David Hockney preceded Basquiat and very much influenced Basquiat. But I really both love the perspectives that they had. And I felt like the compositions that they made were just incredible and so inspiring and the textures and everything. And so those were definitely past designers or past artists that really influenced me. What about right now, it doesn't have to be who's influencing or anything. Who do you think's doing really interesting stuff right now? I think Damian Corral. Dude, I love Damian Corral. I've laid it on thick ever since college. I've just-- every interaction with him, I've totally fanboy. And he's always been really nice to me. Recently, he said some really nice things, but I think he is the unsung hero. Oh, he's so good. He's so good. Oh my gosh. We were talking on Twitter the other day. And literally, I've always admired his work. Another great-- he just has a great perspective. It's interesting, the people that I'm most attracted to are not like-- they don't actually have direct influences on my work. But I think Tim Lehan is really interesting, so he's an illustrator. True. And he was fantastic. Yeah, and your mentor is awesome. And so those are very different styles and perspectives than me, but those are definitely people that I go back to. And I'm like, wow, how interesting of things they're making right now. But I actually-- when I think of work and I try to make work, I don't really try-- I used to go and look at work and really try to figure out how they did it and try to recreate it. And I think it's an important place for you to find a place. Yeah, that you need to do. Yeah, totally. And now, I don't do that at all. In fact, I actually try to avoid finding inspiration and other people's work at all costs. Now, there is times when I'm running into a really hard spot, and I will just kind of start looking around at-- Just to like-- I do find it's like good to like, when you're feeling really stuck, just going back to like why you make stuff. Like, oh, I like this stuff. Well, I don't know. There's something about that that's good. Yeah. Yeah, and so I do that. But I generally try to keep my perspective as pure as possible, even though it has been influenced by a melting pot of people over the last 10 years. Like now, it's at a certain spot where I really wanted to try to stay-- it's a melting pot of all these things. I don't want to throw a gallon of something else in it and really try to change the mixture. I think that's true. And I also think, for me personally, I think the goal is to be in a place where no one is doing it the way that you would want to do it. I found that there was like a transition where all the people I was excited about were doing a lot of things that I wouldn't have done. I was like, I don't really like that tangent they're going off. And so I think eventually, hopefully, the work is the work that you want to want to see out there. So at least it's been that way for me. Last thing is if you could go back to whoever this person was when you were 20 and tell them one thing, what would you tell them? These last three are really typical, but I like them anyway. So I think sometimes things are cliche and typical because they're good. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? So you're asking me, like, what would I say? It was for your 20-year-old self. And you can tell us a little bit about who that person was, too, if it's necessary. OK, my 20-year-old self was not really creative at the time. He was very confused about who he was supposed to be and what culture he was supposed to exist in, and what steps he was supposed to take in life. And very insecure. Oh, man. A people pleaser. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I have come so far in that. And so he was very insecure, very much under peer pressure, ready to make anyone happy. So I would say, I mean, honestly, not to be generic, but I would say with that talk, like the theme of that talk, which is just don't chase the glory, work hard, and be satisfied because that summarizes it. Otherwise, it would be a long conversation. But don't try to make yourself important. Still put all you have into it. Take care of the people around you, and hang your hat up at the end of the day, and have a good time. That's great. That's fantastic. Well, man, this was super good. This was like one of my favorite conversations ever. I really liked it. Dude, it was. I totally zoned out into the conversation zone. So thanks, man. I appreciate it. No. And I knew it would be that way, because that short, like, two-minute walk we had in Memphis, I was like, dude, any night could probably get knee deep. It's like all the seats were like, oh, like-- Yeah, man. Yeah. Dude, I had the idea. I think about that short little copy pretty fond, baby. [MUSIC PLAYING] Oh, man. Thank you, Tyler, for being on the show. That was fantastic. I loved, loved, loved that conversation. Go check out his work. He is seriously legit. Go search Tyler deep. You can find it on Google and all that, and go back to the show notes. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening, everybody. I really, really, really, really, really, really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing it. You guys were super enthusiastic last week about last week's episode. I've got some awesome things in the mix. I know I say that every week. But I hate that I can't tell you what's going on. I've got a lot of cool stuff going on. It's cooking. Just trust me. It's in the crockpot. And anyway, thanks, guys. Hey, also, I'm going to be at icon this year. Go check that stuff out. I'm also going to be at ghost shrimps, ghost camp, for the ghost scouts. Lots of ghosts going down over there. Go check that out. Go check out-- I'll put a link in the show notes. I'm going to talk more about that via Twitter and the blog and maybe a little video or something. But I'm going to be there in August. It's a really, really interesting thing that that dude's doing. Go check that out. Thanks, guys. Thanks to our syndicate illustration age. You can find this show at illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk. Thank you for the great tunes, Yoni Wolf, and your band Y for the theme music. Thanks to Nate Eutesh for all the other tunage. We have his band, Metavari, doing all the other songs. Thanks for that, guys. Guys, I love coming to you every week with more PEP. I hope that it peps you to the max. In the meantime, do whatever you've got to do to stay peped up. [MUSIC PLAYING] From Academy Award-winning actor Matthew McConaughey's soulful and humorous picture book to New York Times best-selling author Kristen Hannah's "The Women," mom's don't have time to read books is an author interview podcast unlike any other. In 30 minutes or less, each episode of this chart-topping and webby award-winning show dives deep beneath the cover. Fostering friendship and camaraderie, support and curiosity, connection and compassion. Hosted by me, Zibi Owens, author, bookstore owner, and head of what the LA Times called the Zibiverse, moms don't have time to read books, has something for everyone, whether you're a mom like me or simply a busy reader. So don't miss out. Follow moms don't have time to read books on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. New episodes are released every weekday, bringing books to life. I did consider Barney a friend, and he's still a friend to this day. The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. I love who you love me. I call it the purple mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man. Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)