Creative Pep Talk
085 - Do What You Hate... First! with Kyle Steed
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work, or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300, and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. (upbeat music) - When I would just rather be creating, I mean, that's... - Yeah, that's all part of it, and you earned a deal with it. That's still not stuff I love doing. (upbeat music) - Hey everybody, you're listening to the Creative Pep Talk podcast. This show is about commercial art, making good money, and making great art. I'm your host, Dr. J Pizza, aka Andy J Miller. Illustration Age is our proud syndicate, and you can find this show at illustrationag.com/creativepeptalk on SoundCloud, on iTunes, on my website, AndyJ.pizza. You can probably find this on USA Today, and on the Huffington Post, and you actually can't find him on those places. Although we were on Buzzfeed, which is pretty much as legit as USA Today. Right? (upbeat music) - We have a special show for you, ladies and gentlemen. We have Kyle Steed on the show, fantastic dude. Just getting to know this guy. You know, I've known his work for a while, but got to have a nice long conversation with the man, a humble man with good thoughts on this whole life of making art a business, and a life, and a career, and juggling that with family, and blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. He has some fantastic stories to share with us and some good perspectives. I love that, and I'm gonna give you a little bit of an intro on that in a minute, but before I jump into that, if you wanna get the first 50 episodes of this podcast, go to my website, go to Andy-J-Miller.com/info, and you can sign up to my newsletter, the Creative PEP Talk newsletter. You can get a reminder every time we launch a new episode, and you'll also get access to all the old episodes. So go check that out, sign up for that. I'm not gonna spam you like crazy. I'm just gonna give you that one email a week with a new episode, unless we have some giant news happening, which we will have soon. We've got so many cool things going on, and I hate not being able to share them. It just drives me nuts. I love to be able to, I like the lead up, and then the big, yeah, when something cool's happening, but I can't tell you all the stuff. But we got cool stuff going on, cool collaborations, and opportunities, and all kinds of good stuff. Also, before we jump in, I wanna just say that I will be doing a all day workshop on illustration, on the process of illustration. Some of my ideas about what the purpose of illustration is, and then the best practices, and we're gonna do a practice of an editorial spot illustration. We're doing that in Indianapolis. On the 29th of April, you can sign up at FuseSessions.com. Fuse is the whole dealio. You get a screen-printed poster with one of my fancy, fancy designs on there. Some of my buddies from Element 3 Agency set this up, and I'm in some good company. I think the last guy to do it was none other than Draplin', so feeling lucky, blessed, and privileged to do the next one. I'm excited about it, so I hope to see you there. I think there's a few spots left, so go pick those up if you're nearby. Okay, let's talk about the show today. - I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, and I have applied this to my creative practice, too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro, and that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself, and when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email. So if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts where team members can edit and play in real time has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, UX, agile or IT, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster from idea to outcome. Go to Miro.com to find out how that's M-I-R-O.com. So Kyle Steed, why did I have this guy on the podcast? You probably already know because you probably already know his work. He's got a fantastic work. If you haven't seen it, go check it out. Kyle Steed.com. You know what I love about Kyle and his work is that it's just very thoughtful. There just seems to be a lot of intentionality about each piece that he does. I also love that there's not a lot of distance between him and his art. Like a lot of the stuff on his site is videos of him creating these murals and photos of him making this stuff. And you can just get the sense that it's just a very personal practice and that there's just not a lot of space in between him and art and it's just kind of an extension of who he is and his life and his family's life. And I love that. I love the cohesiveness of all of the work, how it just looks really, really fantastic all next to each other. And he brings some kind of a special difference to each piece. Like they don't all look exactly the same, but they fit as an overall family of work. And I love that. I have a really, really nice afternoon chatting with this chap. I tried to do another CH after that. You know, chatting with the chap in a chair with some chocolate and some choffee. There was no choffee. I did drink a coffee and I wasn't a chair. But anyway, I don't know where I'm going with that. But we had a great talk. We talked about doing what you hate before you do what you love. We talked about showing up day after day, doing the work. We talked about collaborations. We talked about the kind of internal motivation to make great work. And most importantly, we talked about Harry Potter and it was a good old fashioned good time. Here it is, with my man, with my man, Kyle Steep. Hey man, thanks for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. Let's start off with a softball, OK? I'm going to throw this one over to you. If you're at an event, a party, social gathering, if someone says, what do you do, how do you reply? And say they're interested. They actually care. Uh, I don't-- how do you answer that question? It's so stupid. I say I draw-- I think I draw things for a living. I don't know. And if they say, I've tried to mean picture books, do you-- how do you break that down? Yeah, I say illustrator, people always tend to go, like, oh, do you draw children's books? Or do you write books? Books always seem to think people first gravitate towards. Or if I say I'm an artist, people want to know what galleries I show in. If I try to attempt to tell people that I paint murals, I don't know. They don't really know where to go with that. Yeah. So yeah, it's just-- I guess it always comes back to that person's own history and what they know about. Yeah, their perspective, exactly. Yeah. So I didn't really just kind of more now try and tell people I'm just an artist. All of the many facets that that covers. Yeah. And then if you have somebody who's really interested, then I can get down into it, like, telling-- more talking about specific projects I've done in the class of what mediums I use, or what's your favorite pencil, like, who cares? Yeah, I've actually heard Stephen King, I think, I think gets that question all the time. Like, what pen do you use to write? And it infuriates him. He's like, what could you possibly glean from that kind of information? Yeah. And if people don't know, I'm going to give you a big intro, I'll record it separately. But from-- I think the first time that I ran across your work was through your Envision t-shirt. We have that in common. I did one of those recently. And so that's kind of where I saw your stuff. But when I went and checked it out further, it seems like the majority of your work is murals that are lettering based, they usually-- do you think that's pretty accurate? Majority. Yeah, a lot of my work this last year, two years, has been that, yeah. Yeah. And OK, well, if you want to go check that out, go check out the website. What I want to talk to you about, though, is this question. Kyle, do you do what you love? [LAUGHTER] Yes and no? Yeah. Why? It's a both-- it's a both and not an either or. Yeah. So you do what you hate, as well? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a-- it's such a popular catch phrase, like it's a catch-all. Like, people want to make themselves pump themselves up or pump other people up at night. It's, you know, inspire other people to just do what you love. It really spans any realm that you're in. People can say that to you. And I think the misnomer there, especially young people, people in school or people just out of school, misses all the years and the labor and the sweat that goes in to get to even somewhat feeling like you're loving what you're doing. So yeah, I still feel on a day-to-day basis that, like, answering emails, talking to clients, writing-- I mean, my wife has been helping me now the last three or four months doing more project management stuff. But even still being part of the proposal process and talking about numbers and when I would just rather be creating, I mean, that's all part of it. And you aren't a deal with it. That's still not stuff I love doing. And if you want to venture on your own, you have to know how to do that. And you have to be OK in that. And you have to know where to segment your time and your energy apart from just living this ethereal dream that you get to just create shit all the time. And it's a wonderland. Because that's not true. True. And just simple going through the iterative process with clients and learning how to talk about your work and learning how to sell your work to paying clients and customers, sometimes that's a really-- it's a difficult thing for me. I can only speak for myself. I think maybe others would share in that, too. And I feel like I'm always learning how to do that and how to do that better. The fun part, the part that I love is actually when I get to probably when I'm done with something and can step back and look at it. That's when more often than not now, where I'm at, I love it. I like the process, too, but I don't always love the process. Yeah. That reminds me of-- I don't remember where the quote comes from, but it's something like, writers don't love to write. They love to have written, which is pretty funny. So you sent me a message about how doing what you love more often than not starts with doing what you hate. And you kind of gave me a brief overview, but I'd love for you to take us back to early days, crappy retail jobs, what that looked like, and how that kind of unfolded into where you are now. But tell us all the crap. I had the crap, too. I got all that junk, and I could go for days about it, but I'm sure they're sick of hearing about it. So you tell us yours. I think the crap starts in 2003, which hold-- man, that's been 13 years ago now. I know, 2000-- I've always feel like 2001 feels like two years ago, like that's-- Yeah. [INTERPOSING VOICES] 14 years ago. Crazy. Oh. Yeah, seriously. That was the year I was basically living at home, working part time at UPS Store, not doing anything. I wasn't going to school, and my dad-- So you'd already graduated in high school? Yeah, I graduated high school in 2000, and I'll bring back up a little bit from this point. But that was the moment and time where I was given the ultimatum to either find something full time, which I wasn't working in a creative field at all. I was acting in shipping boxes, which is terrible, and retail, which is also terrible. And he just said, work full time somewhere. Don't be lazy, or go talk to a recruiter and find out more about the Air Force. My brother had been in the military at that point for a number of years, and that was like the last thing I wanted to do. I just never considered that an option. And even remember when my brother decided to go in, I thought it was really weird, because the whole time my brother and I were growing up, that was never-- we were never like a military family. My grandfather served, but it's never anything that we took. I felt like I ever took great pride in. Where was your family? I was living in Fort Worth in Texas. OK, right. Just south of Fort Worth. So yeah, I did that, and just to kind of appease my dad more or less, and they tell you all the things you want to hear and how great it is and blah, blah, blah. And I was still skeptical. I wasn't. I knew going in that they just talk a lot of bullshit. And they just want to get their numbers, too. So you were at UPS first, and then you-- at some point, how did you make that transition to go? Oh, that's the best part. Because I got accused-- I think I actually quit that job. Because I got accused twice of stealing money from most people. Like, one time I was completely out of town, and they called me while I was on vacation from that job. And a completely different state asking if I stole money from the register. And I was like, yeah, it was ridiculous. So finally, the second time they accused me of it is when I had to quit. You were like, wait, we're not allowed to do that? What are you going to say? Did you steal-- yes? What? Is there a problem with that? I can't see how that works out in such a way that I don't know how it makes any sense. Like, I was just so honest that if they-- surely they thought that they called me, I would just admit to it. He might be a thief, but he's not a liar. We know that. Yeah. It's kind of clean. That's ridiculous. So you quit that job, and then you-- Yeah, talk to the recruiter. How did you get-- but why did you talk to the recruiter? For me personally, I have friends that have been in the military. But for me personally, that transition to even open up that door would be really significant. Like, there had to be transitions and things in your mind that kind of cracked that open. Absolutely. I think conversations with my brother about it and hearing him tell me more than just my dad trying to get me off my ass and do something. My brother just kind of explained it in a way that seemed-- to make it seem more just like more or less like any other job you would have. You wear a uniform, and you go to work every day, and you just kind of more or less do what they tell you. Because the military just can't quit, really. You know, it's not like 9 to 5, or where you put in your notice, or you just leave. So there is that commitment aspect of it. But before that, even maybe in like '02 or maybe early '08, my best friend back in Alabama asking me-- I think I kind of came out of nowhere if I would go meet with a recruiter with him. And so I just kind of went with him just to tag along. And I was still just like shaking my head. I was like, this is stupid. Like, this is a bad idea. So yeah, I think after talking to my brother and feeling a little more settled with it, kind of-- and I don't know. Just piqued my interest, just to be curious about it, to hear what they have to say. So that was-- yeah, I mean, but that is a threshold, like, that you cross over, like, not everybody that who may have known somebody or even thought about it to make that step across the doorway into their office. Because then that means you're actually showing some level of interest. And I feel like if a recruiter sniff that out of you, they're going to say just about anything to get you to sign up. True. But yeah, and so it actually went really fast. I think I talked to my recruiter in, like, May. And I was gone by mid-August. May or June that year. I wasn't supposed to go to basic training for, like, another year. And they ended up moving me in quicker. So yeah, that was that. I think the best part-- I only did four years. And my favorite part, at least, from the whole experience, apart from we can get into this later, I met my wife. We met on MySpace when I was in Japan. That's awesome. But which shows my age, too, which I'm OK with. Hey, man, I was rocking that MySpace. I had all my art on there. And I was racking up those comments. It was-- I had decked down my page, personalized. It was amazing. That's where I first-- I think that's where I first found out about Keegan Jones, too, when he worked for the Big Nude. Do you remember that, back in the day? No, I don't know that. Keegan used to work at GoWala before they sold out to Facebook. And now he's like this world explorer. He's still a friend. He's an awesome dude. But we lived up here in Grapevine in DFW area. And he hacked his MySpace. And that's where I first heard about him, because he was like, that code was ridiculous. And somehow, yeah, he wrote this whole post about how he hacked it. And anyways-- That's funny. We'll put it in the show notes, like, how you can hack your MySpace. How you can pimp it out. Who is their face-- who is their big celebrity for the 2.0 Justin Timberlake? Was I who? I don't know. I'm guessing. I think it was. That sounds like maybe it's just insane. Make sure to just add the whole comfortable. Lance Bass, Justin, Fatone. Joey, Joey, Joey. Joey, Joey, yeah. JT, is there JT? JC. They're all Justin. They're all there, Justin. So anyway, you're talking about being in the military. I would love to hear what kind of emotional transitions happened while you're there. Like, what's happening internally? Because I mean, I have friends in the military that it's a massive struggle in lots of ways. I imagine that-- was it a struggle for you? Yeah, it's just a different form of-- it's just different people. It's a different way of life. I mean, it's hard to describe it because it's so-- it's so not conducive to creativity. Everything about it is just soul sucking. It's just so rigid. And everything is so drab. And I mean, everything looks like it's from the '50s or '60s. Everything is just muted and removed of any sort of soulful element. It's a different way of being a human. Yeah, totally. And I mean, that's the way from the very get-go that you probably heard it like they break you down to build you up. And it's all about just more or less-- I mean, brainwashing is a harsh word, but it's about you conforming to their image and their way of life. And my biggest struggle probably through it all was holding on to my individuality and my creative sense and not just like-- I don't think I could have done it even if I tried selling out to that way of life, like fully investing in it. Because to me, it's just a joke. I think our defense budget is a joke. I think like how much effort we put into it. And like, I don't know. That's to say that people serving is a joke, but-- or that our country's worth defending. I'm not making those arguments or whatever, but people take it so serious. And I just think you've got to calm down, like, just relax. And so to maintain that throughout was the biggest challenge. I would have little outlets here and there. I mean, I kept journals through most of my time, which was a really good outlet. Sometimes my only outlet. Sometimes the only person I could talk to was myself on paper. So you have any moments throughout that period of time were there emotionally difficult moments, or was it more like-- yeah, I mean, were there time-- do you have specific memories of like this thing was really difficult, or this thing, I felt I couldn't get through it, or-- Yeah, a lot of those. I think the biggest adjustment, the biggest thing, and I don't know if I would ever forget this, like the first couple mornings of basic training, you go to sleep and you're so exhausted. And I don't know. I would just dream I was right back at home. And then they cut the lights on, and they played this like, bugle music, like blaring at like volume 11. And my whole nervous system was just shot. Like, I remember waking up visibly shaking just because totally out of your element. And those were getting adjusted to that initially was really tough. I got really sick for like three or four days. And I didn't want to-- I'd seen people that would go to like the sick call, and they'd get like held back by a couple weeks. And I didn't want to deal with that. So I had like, I was like walking around with fever and the sweats and all that. And I was like, I don't care. Maybe it was just because I'm so stubborn. Yeah, I was just like, I'm not-- like, I'm just going to push through this and doing that. But I mean, more than the physical stuff, like, I know you keep asking about like the emotional. Yeah. Yeah, I think my first six months-- so I did Intel was what they classified me as. And I had to learn Morse code. And the first six months I spent in southern Arizona, almost to Mexico. And that was one of the hardest damn things I ever had to do. Because it's such an antiquated language. And it's simple, but it's incredibly difficult to learn. And the biggest part of it is if you're already familiar with typing, which I was, like, if you can respond to just seeing or reading and typing it out, or it's so different because it's auditory, you have to listen to it and then respond. And I just remember feeling overwhelmed and just feeling just-- I couldn't do it. I just felt helpless, you know? I felt like, what am I doing here? This is stupid. Why am I even having to learn this? So did you end up learning it? Yeah, after six months, you have to take a test. I mean, you level up. It's like gaming. You keep going into these different levels where it gets harder. And then you have to do different tests or different tests where they make it more difficult. And you learn, like, there's more shorthand codes that you have to-- I can't even remember all this now. But finally, you get to the graduating level. And then if you pass that test, then you move on. And finally, get it, you know? I mean, it's just-- more or less, at the end of the day, I think it taught me how to persevere and how to press through and feeling completely helpless. And that challenge just seemed insurmountable at first to come through that and to learn that if you just stick with it and you keep trying and you keep practicing, you're going to get better. And that's stuff I still carry with me today. Yeah, that sounds like an invaluable lesson about your potential knowing that you're maybe infinitely more capable than you would imagine. That situation where you think is hopeless and time, energy, dedication, practice. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm guessing that has probably changed a lot for you and your mindset. And did you think the person that left the military was a different person than the person that went in? In certain ways, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think-- I mean, it can't not change you, right? Like, I think even if I didn't do anything, if I haven't gone through that, there still would have been some aspect of it that changed me. And-- but I'm always-- I'm the type that I kind of see live stepping stones. So we go from one to the next. And hopefully, it's on to something better. It may not always look like it in the moment, but I have to believe that going from working in a grocery store, to working in retail, to the military, and then coming back out of that, and actually going right back in, I worked for a month at a bookstore. And I just had this really depressing moment where I was like, wait, I just left how much a year for how much an hour now? I'm like, this can't be it, I can't settle for this. So what was the difference in the old Kyle at UPS to the new Kyle at the bookstore? Like, what had changed internally? Or why did that shift? My determination, my drive to make it happen. Instead of before where I just thought things should happen and expected things to happen, now when I was like, I can't, if I don't do anything, it's not going to happen if I just sit here and just accept what's being handed to me. And that's all that's ever going to be. - Yeah, that's a-- - And I didn't-- - Go ahead. - Oh no, and it's not like I wanted to try and make it better in the bookstore, 'cause I was like, this is just, this is like me 10 years ago. - Yeah, yeah. - And yeah. - So that's the interesting thing for me as a parent, where, so, and as a teacher, so I teach a class at an art school, and I was actually talking to them yesterday about what, you know, why if you're switched on in Hungary, what's the difference between that and then not being switched on? How do you, I'm trying to, you know, speak with them, think through it and say like, first of all, just to know, if you wanna make art for a living, that is going to be an uphill battle. It's gonna be a challenge. If you're not switched on, you don't have a chance, there's just, it's not gonna work out for you. And so, I knew that, and even in college, that I was really switched on, and I have been thinking through like, what led to that, and I think one of the things was that my parents, from as soon as I could get a job, I had to have a job, and actually, I think all of the things that I'm good at are, don't help you do regular jobs. Like, they actually hurt you doing regular jobs, like daydreaming, you know, being creative, like all that stuff. I think from early age, I would be physically, feel physically ill about a half hour into my shift at all the part time jobs I ever had. And I think for me, the hard part of knowing, going through that is that as much as I hated that, and I didn't like that my parents made me do that, how much of a positive impact that had on me later, 'cause I knew that I had to make stuff happen. - Yeah, I can totally resonate with that with being a parent now, I mean, you really don't get the option to be switched on or off, you can totally make the choice to go on autopilot, and just like not be involved, not pay attention to your kids or your wife, and just be a dirt bag parent, you know? But I find it's more fulfilling and it's more, you get it more out of it what you put into it. And that's with marriage, that's with kids, that's with my work or with your work, you know, it's... - And I think the other thing, go ahead, no, go ahead. - Oh, it's just so funny that you talk about daydreaming because sometimes I'll be in here in my studio like laying on the floor, it's like processing stuff, and it could happen like a week or two ago, and my wife came in here and she was like, what are you doing? I was like, this is part of it, this is part of the work, I'm even worse than that. I kid you not, look, I'm gonna defend this to the end. No one believes me. Seriously, a part of my process often is taking a bath. - I know that's ridiculous, but there's something about like, I don't know if it's sensory deprivation or something like being immersed in water, and I can just like, think, and I feel so like, guilty when you're doing it, 'cause I have a billion things to do, but honestly, so much of the best stuff comes from the walks or the baths or laying on the floor, I do think you need to make space for that kind of stuff. - Hopefully. - Yeah, they don't let you do that when you work at UPS. - No, they don't have a nice soaking bathtub in the back. (laughing) - Yeah, exactly, see, how much more productive their employees could be if they could take a bath halfway through their shift. We'll send a little message on that. - I will, I'll not write this, yeah. (upbeat music) - Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new Journey to the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk or antijpizza.substack.com. And I hope to see you at this month's meetup. (upbeat music) - It's holiday shopping time, y'all. It's time to freak out, not. - Because "Uncommon Goods" is here to make it easy. Listen, all I did was click the "For Her" section on this site and I instantly saw five things that I could get, Sophie, don't tell her, but I'm thinking either the National Park sweaters, the tea advent calendar. There's also just below that little bubble tea kit for my oldest and then I saw one of these, you know, the retro little viewfinder orange, real viewer things, but you can make it your own photos. Okay, it might not make sense, just you have to go check it out yourself. Here's the thing, I have seriously never seen so many good options for gifts online in one place and unlike lots of other convenient options, shopping "Uncommon Goods" actually supports small businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer "Uncommon Goods." We're all out of the ordinary. (upbeat music) But you know, for me also as a parent, I'm thinking through like, you know, how do you balance that like you want to protect your kid? But at the same time, you know, my parents making me do that was a big factor in me going on to do successful things. And I think for you, it's like, as much as you hated being in the military, would you go back to the time, the day before you sign the papers and say, don't sign those papers? - I don't think I could. I would miss out on so much. Like one day, and we didn't even touch on this yet, but just getting to live in Japan, that was an experience that I don't think I would have thought to have. - So you, when you are in the military, you spent how many years over in Japan? - Three. - And what did that, how did being outside your culture and all that, how did that shift or change the way that you think and the way that you are today? - That was really hard at first. I mean, really it's feeling, really knowing what it feels like to be the outsider, to be the foreigner. - What were some like early things early on that were like making you feel that way? - Oh God. We're trying to remember the first time that we probably went out. - You live at, you get there and you live on base and everyone speaks English, everyone's American. It's all very comfortable. But I can remember physically feeling different when I stepped off the airplane and you know you're not. - Air is different in different countries. Like when I lived in England for five years and when you step out on the plane, it's almost like being on a different planet just in a chemical makeup of the air and the land and that you can just feel it. - And everything just looks a little bit different. Even the things that are familiar. - That's right. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I mean, that's so true. And, but just getting outside of the base and the language barrier is one thing, but just knowing that you're 8,000 miles from everything that's familiar to you and everyone that cares about you is a lot to mentally digest. And feeling alone, like those first, probably the first month of living in a dorm room by, you know, just being by yourself. And I had a few friends that showed up a little later, but I mean, but for me, so I'm 6'4, right? - Yeah. - I'm about as wide as they come and even back then, you know, with no facial hair and no cool clothes on, just like buzzed head, military style, living in Japan, walking around, head and shoulders above everyone else. Like, I just went back and found photos on a old hard drive. And I was like, I will talk to the biggest idiot, like, no wonder, I mean, I just stuck out like a sore thumb. It was ridiculous, but it was also, it was also the best. Just those experiences of, it just brings a whole new, appreciation that we take for granted. And, you know, we don't, most of us that grow up, and that are born, that are privileged enough to be born in America and grow up. I never leave here. I hate that, like, I wish that it was instituted that you turn 18 and you don't go to college. You have to go travel someplace and get outside of yourself, outside of your comfort, outside of your city and country, just to experience another way of life. And, I mean, Japanese culture is so vastly different from American culture. - There's a real like purification, I think, that happens too, of like all of the things that you have accepted and embraced that are really more a product of your culture than a product of who you really are and what you really believe. You get kind of thrown into that fire, and all of a sudden, all of that stuff fades away, and you're left with a more clear picture of who you are, I think, at least that was my experience. - Yeah, yeah. And just like serving sizes, why the hell do we? (laughing) Why are quite so big? - Well, that's-- - It's absolute. - I feel you there, I get that. And I, so you come, you go over there, you go through that process, and then you come back, and you're at the bookstore, and then you're thinking, this cannot be, I can't go right back into where I was previous of this experience. I do think, you know, the process of the journey of suffering and going through problems creates a certain type of soil in you to birth all kinds of different things that there's no other way of attaining. And I think your point there was that like, the do what you love thing really cuts all of that out. It's, I think there's that myth of like thinking that doing what you love means that you're going to, as soon as you say yes to that, it's a one-way path to greatness and happiness, and that universe just says, yay, you finally decided to quit doing all the things you hate, 'cause most idiots just keep doing those things, go ahead, come do what you love. But it's actually, for me personally, just to give you my background of why that resonates with me, is like, you know, again, I had to go through having jobs that I was not suited for, that I sucked at, that made me miserable, that made me feel sick. And then also coming back, starting my career after college, all the things I did with illustration, that all the experiences that I had went really well. And I loved them, and they, I felt like I was like, doing my thing, but it took a long time to get to a point where I was thriving financially, getting enough jobs and all that. And so the first couple of years out of college, I had so many experiences of like, lying on the floor, not brainstorming, lying on the floor like, what the hell is wrong with my life, and what am I gonna do, and feeling super real pain? And I know that that pain transitioned into have thinking really hard, being contemplative, being strategic, you know, doing whatever it takes, and that created an internal, a massive internal shift from someone who thought, okay, I just deserve this thing. Or I think another thing I picked up in some of the stuff you sent me on your blog was this idea of entitlement versus proving yourself. And that is something that I think is really interesting, 'cause I think a lot of us have this sense that we have talent, or we have something that's really valuable, and I think if you're, before you prove it, you go, you flip-flop between, I'm the most, I am so worthy, and I've got the best stuff in the world, and you better pay attention, and then in any second, you could switch to, yeah, I really suck, I'm the worst, I'm total dirt, like, there's nothing in me, until you start getting that stuff out into the real world. - Yeah. - And so, what did that process look like of taking all that, like, I know that I've got something, but now I've gotta actually do something with it, from the bookstore to the next steps, what did that look like? - Mm-hmm. I had a friend who, before we moved back, was doing old school web design, and she had known that I was into, I had done some graphic design prior to, prior to all the military stuff, even. And so, she was like, oh, you know, you should check out web design. I'll send you a couple of books, so she sent me, like, a really basic book on CSS and HTML, and all the while I'm at the bookstore, she's helping me, you know, put together my resume. - Yeah. (laughs) - And she has a, she had a headhunter lady that she had worked with, and sent it over to her. I get a call back from that headhunter about this really entry-level web designer position at this small tech company, really more like an IT company. I don't even know why they hired me to begin with, to be honest, but I went in for an interview, and my friend kind of was like, all right, they're gonna ask you about this stuff, so here's, you know, what you need to know. It was just so funny, like, looking back on it now, I was like, I had no business that I needed to interview. - Yeah. - But, right before I took that job, or right after I had started back at a community college, 'cause with the GI Bill, it's just a no-brainer, like they'll pay for you to go to school and they'll pay you on top of that. - Yeah. - So it was easy money. - Yeah. - And so I was literally going to school at night doing this like intro to web design, and thank God they were teaching, what was his name? Like CS, it was all CSS design at that time, so they were getting away from table-based layouts, and I could go into my job the next morning and start to show them and implement this stuff, and have real-world experience. So it was crazy first like three to six months, 'cause I was doing everything in tandem, like learning at night, and applying it in the morning. But that was kind of the beginning, and then working, I worked at that job for like two and a half years, and slowly started coming back around to my journals, which I kind of put away. I just got so into learning about coding and CSS and web design, that I just really got immersed in the computer aspect of it all. I quickly started to just feel like not to feel enough in that, and picking back the sketchbook, and just in my free time doodling and drawing stuff, that really made me feel more connected to... I could really use it at that job, 'cause it made it super corporate, and they didn't really want to get too far outside of the box. I mean, people always say they want one thing, but they really want another. - We want out-of-the-box thinkers. Just go in there and code for hours, please. - Yeah, right. That was kind of, I mean, that's not the beginning of it, but that was totally getting that job, call it luck, call it right place, right time, call it just having a friend in your corner. That totally propelled me into the next, into the next stepping stone of life, and... - So did you, were you, was that a friend that you knew was doing something relatively creative that you were kind of poking at to say, "Hey, could you help me out, "or were they trying to help you?" - She was really reaching out to me. She was so long story short. She and my wife were good friends before we got married, and then get married, and we get introduced and start talking. And so, yeah, she just kind of starts poking me, and she was like, when we finally moved back to Texas, we lived like five minutes from each other. So she was like, "Hey, why don't you come help me out? "I'm doing a couple of small websites on the side, "maybe you can help me design them, "or I can just show you how to code them up." And she was, we're doing dream weaver templates. Like, it was so, but for me at that time, I was like, "What?" And like, trying to read about CSS totally blew my mind until I realized it was more like lego blocks, and then I could really wrap my head around like, doing that and connecting the box. Yeah, and so that's kind of, it was just more of her wanting to help me, and me just being open to him and like, "Yes, like, I'm definitely not satisfied. "I'm not like trying to save this bookstore "for the next five years, so what you got?" Yeah. And yeah, so that just kind of started this. I mean, but like 10 years prior to that, I remember sitting in my room and laying on the floor, feeling like, "I have all this in me, "I don't know what the output is, what the end goal is." Like, drawings and all this stuff. I'm like, knowing I was, knowing I was talented and creative and whatever, but not knowing like, "Where should I pursue this?" Like, where, before the internet, man, it was just tough, like, I had one internship in 2001 at a pharmaceutical company doing graphic design, and I still have those sketches of doing icons which are terrible. - That is awesome. - Off the send you, also knew a picture of. - That's hilarious. - And yeah, just doing these really bad illustrator icons. - Yeah. - And even that, I mean, that was so cool. That was such a great experience and working with the creative director there taught me a lot. But from that gap in 2001 to 2007, I just, I didn't really have the drive in me. I didn't have that hunger in me to know where to put it and to what to pursue now. - So what changed, what changed, what shifted? - What happened in 2007? - Yeah, that's like coming out of the military. - You feeling? - Right, that's where you go into the web design and all that. - And just not settling for what I had before and pursuing what was next. And yeah, with the benefit of having a friend that could be in my corner and help me out and help punch my resume to make me look what I was talking about a little bit. - I definitely think there's a big lesson in like utilizing your friendships. And you know a lot more people doing interesting things and you probably think you do. Even if you have no major connections in the creative world and how much of a, how much those relationships, I mean, almost everything gets built from there in my experience. - Yeah, and you have to be, and like those, my boss that I really feel like taking a chance on me and like seeing something in me beyond probably what I knew like, he probably knew I knew a little bit, but he probably thought I was fudging most of it. - He could see through. - Yeah. - Yeah, and that's awesome. Like everyone needs that, you know, and... - And so you start feeling like not creatively fulfilled in that zone. And so you, what gave you the intuition to go back to the journals and then in the sketchbooks and what was kind of, was that just a nate, like hunger to do that kind of thing? Or was there anything that piqued that interest again? - Bored him a lot of it, I think, from sitting in meetings. I mean, that's when I was in a nine to five, that was my prime time to sit and draw and give offs in the moment because I hate meetings and boardrooms are terrible places. And so for me, that was always like my favorite time because I could just sit in a corner. If I wasn't, I mean, most of the time, I was just sitting in a corner not being called on. Like I just had to physically be there. - Very, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. And my next job I took after that, I was doing UX design and they would do sprint meetings every week for like all morning. And it was, if I didn't have my journal, I don't know what I would have done, it would have been awful. But I mean, I, again, like drawing was something that was just so a natural part of my rhythm of life from childhood anyways. So I had just always in school, even to me, same thing, like school was so good because I was bored of art. So I just draw a lot. - Yeah. - And that was what that transition looked like from doing your drawing and your sketchbook and somehow that turns into where you are now. - I think the same thing that you kind of mentioned earlier, like it took a while to build up a certain amount of clients and a certain amount of gumption that it took to realize my potential and to realize that people would actually pay for this. You know, I started with like small, really small, crappy website projects for people and then somebody would ask me to like draw their logo or draw their name or something. I don't know, you get asked to do weird stuff, right? - Yeah, when you're like on the periphery of the creative world, there are all kinds of weird things that sift through and you know, sometimes the odd things strikes a chord within you or you know, all of a sudden you're doing something that someone else recognizes as special or whatever. - That's right. - Yeah. - And one of those fun, yeah, I can remember one of those fun projects that kind of came out of nowhere and like '07, '08, I met these guys in California on Twitter and they asked me, they were building some app and asked if I do illustrations for it. And it was bad, like I didn't even, I don't even think I sketched them out, maybe I did. But they were all vector, I mean, they were all in the most, and it was, I just found the files the other day. I have the whole archive on the throttle box, yeah. - You've got that stuff. - Archived back, you got like the whole, you're ready for one day when they do the Kyle Steed, what do you call it, the, it's not the-- - Retrospective. - Yeah, the retrospective, they're gonna go back to those early illustrator icons for the website in 2001. - But is it that important? I think it's important to keep a record of all your, not all your wrongs, but where you were in the moment and-- - It's also good to, I've found to every once in a while go back and kind of ruminate on how far you've come and how those big transitions and all that, that definitely makes a big impact on me. - Yes. - Yeah. So then it was about, what am I, my fourth year? So the end of '11, starting out in 2012, is when I made the initial jump, well not the initial, I made the jump to working for myself and it's been uphill ever since. It definitely isn't always easy. - No. - And, but I haven't, I haven't wanted to give up. I haven't wanted to quit because it sometimes, I feel like I was being forced into the corner, but it, then something else would turn the corner in a new project which show up and it's different now. I mean, two kids now and a family to support, it's a lot more pressure than when we started and it was just me and my wife, you know? - Early days, I mean, you know, I think I've found that it doesn't matter how in demand I get, how much money I'm making a year, there's always gonna be a few weeks in a year where things go quiet randomly and early on were those like scary times. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - I mean, we planned financially for about three or four months out of a gate that we knew if everything went to shit like we could stay afloat for that long while I look for a new job. - Yep. - Within the first year, we depleted that. Taxes is just another beating. - Oh man, don't even say that word. That word is my trigger word. My whole whole life taxes like, oh gosh, like I just actually re, I shared a thing on Facebook I saw where H&R block and TurboTax actually lobbied the government to make sure that taxes stay as complicated and crazy as possible because it keeps him in business. And that makes me sick and I hate it. But yeah, it's a super hard thing to navigate. And actually, one thing I wanted to talk to you about was about a year ago, it looks like you were writing on your blog about how you wanted to maybe strike a better balance in work life and or just a call to one of the things that's in my mind a lot recently is, especially you see these agency people that they want them there 'til dusk 'til dawn and they want them sad at their computer. And sometimes I've worked with clients that kind of, I feel, yeah, I feel like the pressure like they're giving me that vibe like, we paid you for the day and it's still, it's 11.30 and we still have it. And I'm like, no, that's not the way it works. And so are those the things that are, have you struck a better balance or those are the things that are still kind of on your plate that you're trying to work through? - Yeah, I think I'm always trying to work through. And I say we because it's a team effort now. - Yeah. - My wife especially is her coming on with doing project management more with me. - My wife takes some of that too, so I can do that. - Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, it's such a value for me and takes a lot off of my plate. But it took us, you know, almost four, over four years to figure that out. - Yeah. - So every Friday I take off now, Fridays are my dad days, so I get my girls. So that right there alone limits me to, I pretty much word Monday through Thursday 'cause I don't really, unless it's like push comes to shove and I have a big project or I'm just a big girl, I don't work the weekends either. - So how does that affect your productivity? - It's tough. And we were just laying in bed the other night talking about this and like, why do we, and I think we're still processing some of this and I'll just be real candid like, why do we fall back into the mindset that I have it that I work in nine to five when I don't? Like, how can we be more creative in our schedules as a family and this my professional schedule instead of just clocking in at my home studio at nine a.m. and clocking out at five? Like, why do we assume that that's the norm? I don't know, it's really tough because sometimes I don't feel like when I come in here in the morning, I wanna get anything done. And sometimes it, sometimes I do, sometimes it hits me at like six a.m. when I get out when I first wake up. And so, but most, you know, other mornings, I'm like, I'm doing breakfast and I, there's just other responsibilities now then. So really like managing time but fitting the creative element into the bandits. - It's a process, I think especially for a family man and you know, I've obviously gone through the same things. I've been kind of out on my own since, it must have been 2011 full time. I'd had some like part time things in there, but from before that, but you know, especially early on, it was just very, a very difficult thing to kind of find a balance, find a way of making this work. Lots of, you know, give and take and just trying to navigate that. But I think as you go through the ups and downs, they're, you start to like both get on the same page, which is a massive deal, at least it is for me. And then the other thing I've found recently is like, a lot of times I don't want to go sit at my desk and I'm thinking of ways of like, how can I make it so that I don't do that? And then as soon as I sit down, I like switch on and I'm like, all right, I'm here, I've showed up and I'm ready to go. But yeah, so I mean, do you, what things have you found that have helped you in your productivity or in that balance? - Yeah, the sitting down and showing up is a big part of it. - Yeah. - But that's, it's so mental. Like it's such a, not saying that you have to like, see the outcome before you even do it, but you really have to get over that mental gap. And sometimes just forcing yourself into it, makes a way for it to just like happen and then it starts to flow out naturally, but sometimes I just don't feel it. And like, I think like, what the hell am I doing? Like, why did I choose a career to draw for a living? Like, it's so stupid. Like, what am I doing? - Yes. - But yeah, I mean, things that helped me too, I mean, like going and I went and had a conversation with a guy this morning who wants to do some video work with me. And so that is, that is exciting because it's helping. It helps spur me into creating more because he's gonna be relying on me. - Yeah. - Yeah, those collaborations I've found that too. I'm actually, I've been talking to a video guy. We've come up with a bunch of different video projects for the podcast and actually that give and take of kind of both being in on it. And he keeps like pecking me and saying, "Hey, where are you at with this?" And then I'll throw something back into his lap. And I do find that like getting out of your studio and connecting and seeing like the bigger purpose, it's definitely hard to stay motivated when your day after day, go into your little room, make stuff digitally, send it over. It just seems it gets to be meaningless. - Well, that's why I really loved embracing getting back to painting the last this year, especially. And I have two working panels in my space right now. So where I can, but it's sometimes I find myself just staring at the computer and like, what am I doing? It's just done, just wasting time. And so to shut it down and really just stare at a piece of wood and like, what am I gonna put on it? And making and just like, I love the part of the painting process because it's so, it involves all of your senses I feel like. And it's just in a different way. You can't just control Z your mistakes. Like you actually, it's very deliberate. It's very intentional. For me it is. - It's a lot more meditative. I've found, whenever I've done murals and stuff and you have to be very, very present in that moment, it's very different to, you know, when I'm drawing on my centique and it's like, control Z, control Z, like, it's not, you know, I don't know. You don't have to be, it's a lot more random. And I do find it to be kind of a more like meditative practice. But yeah, that's interesting. So you, so all right, I wanted to say one thing, you know, so in this past year or so, are you getting any nudges that are like opening up new doors, possibilities? Like what kind of happens for you when you can see maybe a new path emerging? Is that, does that happen to you? Does it, has it evolved over time and changes? Yeah. - I just feel like I'm right in the cusp of that turning a corner. - Right now? - Yeah, right now. - What's that look like? - Scary. - Yeah. - I mean, I was just having this conversation this morning too where I feel like most, you just, I mean, from the get go, you've said most of your work this last couple of years been murals, which is great, which I wanna do, but it's been mainly like lettering. - Yeah, yeah. - And words, which, that's fine, but for where I'm at now, I wanna, I'm trying to say more without using words, and I wanted to be a little more thought provoking than just like self-explanatory when you read it, or witty or whatever, you know, I mean, that stuff's fine and it's been great, and I'm not, I don't regret doing any of the work I've done so far. But turning the corner and trying to pursue something that's different, and it's something that feels more personal, I guess, is when I'm getting that, where it feels more vulnerable, is a little scary because it's like putting yourself out there all over again, and trying to, not like redefine myself, but like, this is a part of my process, and this is a part of my evolution as an artist, and this is something new for me too, and it's new for people seeing it, so, and it's hard to, I just sometimes, I sometimes hate the validation that comes in it when it's so new, like, I don't, it's not that I don't like it when somebody tells me they like it or that it's good or whatever, but I still like, I don't want that to cheapen the part where I just like stop there, and I'm like, oh, that was good enough, like, that got, you know, I don't wanna feel approved or validated in that, like, I wanna keep, and I feel like I have that, like, that personal, like, when do I know it's good enough? I don't know, like, you know, that internal drive, I can't think of the right word, but, - Like exploring it for yourself more than you're exploring it for someone's, you know, thumbs up on Instagram or whatever. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - And that's a tough balance too, and, you know, just kind of like that internal compass of like, where is it, where is it pointing you, and whether or not people come along behind that or not, like, are you still gonna be willing to take the risk to pursue it? - So when you start noticing, like, oh, there's this, you know, the work I have been doing is maybe not as creatively fulfilling to me anymore as it was, and I still might enjoy it, but I wanna, like, explore some new things. What are you, what kind of things do you actually do to shift that, or what are you trying to do to kind of, like, actively shift the next few years? - Painting right now is what I'm doing, in showing, showing that process, and being, I think, risking a certain level to show some of that work, and kind of just, like, pointing people in the direction that I wanna go, and, but it's been pretty cool. I just got connected with a guy from Canada yesterday who's maybe interested in bringing me up to do some murals for an event he's putting on, so, I mean, you just never know where that stuff's gonna come from, like, in my experience, stuff comes up out of the blue, like, just one day you're sitting there, bam, like, an awesome opportunity. - And that comes from, like, cataloging the thing, like, just going ahead and doing the thing that you wanna be doing, cataloging it, sharing it, and then, the rest is up to who discovers it. - Absolutely, so there's so much, there's just so much unknown in that, that you can try and plan, and be purposeful, and go by the book, and do the metrics, and, I don't know, all that advertising, but, like, and I have a hard time of self-promoting, but, yeah, the only thing you can do is just put your, you just have to put yourself out there, and I think, like, showing the work that you wanna do, I can't remember who's attributed to that quote, but I love it, because it's so true, like, if you're sick of doing the work that you've been doing, then, if you're not doing-- - Start doing some new work. - Yeah, it starts showing that, and over time, like, your confidence will build in it, people will start, and it's, people will start to see it, and, I don't know, it's just constantly, you just have to be, you have to be doing something, so if you're not doing something that you like, or I don't wanna, it's kind of a full circle, if you're not doing something that you love, you know, it's always that balance between-- Yeah, absolutely, and that's-- - Doing it, I'm doing what you are. - That's the thing for me, is that the whole podcast, all of that goes back to it for me, where it's all about striking a balance between thriving financially, the business working, and then also enjoying what you're doing, and to me, it's like, the pendulum always goes back and forth, and so, I'll wanna start doing something new, and so I start making that stuff, but initially, it's not making any money. By the time that thing starts being really in demand, I'm not super into it anymore. (laughing) And so, you have to have the balance, and you have to have the, for me, it's good that I have to support, you know, three kids and my wife, and all that, because it means that I have this, it's created this kind of balance to me, to where, when that email comes in my inbox, and they want something that I did three years ago, if, you know, I have this thing that says, you gotta do that, it doesn't matter whether that's, you're excited about that, and the funny thing is, when I'm true to that, I'll go back to that stuff, I'll do it better than I did it back then, and I'll learn something new, and I'll be like, oh yeah, I forgot about that stuff, I'm gonna bring that into my new practice, and so, you know, I found that writing that pendulum wave is actually really beneficial creatively, even in the most pure ways, but yeah, that's definitely been the same thing that's been in my experience, and I love that, one of the things we talk about a lot is like, I go ahead, what were you gonna say? - I also well said, I feel like I'm interviewing you. (laughing) - No, you gotta watch out for that, man, I'll go off on a giant tangent, like it's so bad for you, I'm so bad about it. I love to talk, you know what, that's an interesting thing though, that was another thing, I don't wanna keep you too much longer, but the thing that your email got me thinking about was that, you know, so I really, I think when you say yes to being an adult, the call, whatever you wanna call it, and you think you know what you're saying yes to, you know, when I started now, even thinking I was gonna be an illustrator or a designer, and I'm like hustling on all that stuff, and working really hard on it, and enjoying it, I think it's funny the whole do-it-you-love thing, and doing what you hate first, because there was so much of that that was really hard and painful that I really hated, and then it's funny in the past couple years, the podcast, I found talking as a medium, very bizarre, and I found that I loved this more than anything that I've ever done, and it's like, but I would have never done this had I not done all this other, you know, I could have never seen these dots before, that's how Steve Jobs says that, he had a commencement speech where he talks about, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you kinda have to live them, and you can kinda see how they line up, but yeah, it's just bizarre that, you know, doing a bunch of stuff that was painful and hard actually led me to this place where, I would have never known how much, I would have never found the talking as a medium, had I not done a podcast about illustration, so that's, you know, it's fascinating the way that that plays out. - Yeah, that's awesome. - Yeah, so, well man, I really appreciate you taking time to do this, and I had a blast kinda hearing your story, was there anything, I've got two other little things, one, was there anything that you wanted to make sure you put in here before we go sign out? - No, I was just excited to have a conversation about that. I think it was good. You just caught me in like, really deep thought that if the tail end there, so I was like, this is based on that. Which is really bad for a podcast. - What were you thinking about? - Oh, I mean, the connecting the dots thing is so, I mean, it's just so right on, you can't, or you can't plan, you can plan for the future. I mean, you can say like where you wanna go, but nine times out of 10, it's not gonna happen that way. And you have to be willing to accept the risk that when the wheels fall off, you know, that you either have such an internal focus and direction that it doesn't matter, you're still gonna get there somehow, and you're gonna figure out a way to put the wheels back on or to build something new, to make it go again. Oh, yeah, I mean, when you look back, like it becomes a little more clear over time how all of this stacked up and added together and now makes sense to where you are. - Yeah, totally. And I think for me, it's like, the thing I'm always trying to encourage people with is, I think your nature is to either be someone who rides waves or makes waves, and you actually have to, I think a lot of times, you gotta let go of your nature to a degree. So for me, my nature is to make waves. I wanna sit around IDA, think about where I wanna go, and then make that happen. But what ends up happening is, as I'm on that journey, I get pecked by something I didn't expect. There's a wave that's coming up that I didn't see coming. And if I don't ride that wave, I massively regret it. Like for instance, when I did, this is a good example of me massively failing on this. So I did this indie rock coloring book when I graduated college. And I did it because I wanted to work with indie bands. I wanted to like do gig posters, but I was in the UK where that hadn't quite taken off. And there was this like, no, I could not get my hands on screen printing stuff. Like it was just like wouldn't happen. So that was the best I could do to kind of like jump in. It actually would end up happening as I get all these like these little inklings that maybe there was a wave to do coloring books. And this was like years before this ridiculous wave of adult coloring books. And my wife was like, you gotta do this. You gotta do coloring books. Like there's a thing there. And I was like, no, I didn't even wanna do that. There's nothing to do with it. And looking back, I just think, man, I was such an idiot. I couldn't take that tap on the shoulder. And I've tried to recently be more active about noticing where's this wave going? And let go of the need to control where it's going. - Yeah, totally. - Yeah, so that's, yeah, that's been true in my life. - That's so funny. - I know, where is it? Oh, it's right there. I could see it on our shelf, an adult coloring book that my wife and I just shook my head when she brought it home. - Oh my gosh, it's a crazy world that we live in these days. So, all right, one last thing. Are you a reader? - I'm a very slow reader. - Me too. I do read slowly. Do you have any books, creative books, business books, anything that made a big impact on you that you wanna share with everybody? - The War of Art is a fantastic book. - Yes, I almost actually already referenced that because we were talking about, you know, sitting down at the table and, you know, getting that resistance here and that's a big thing. That's a great book. - Probably like a dozen little sticky notes stuck in that book still. - Totally. - Another one that's just been on a more practical, useful level is the pricing and ethical guidelines book. - Yeah, yeah. - So, graphic designer's skill. It's sometimes still really confusing to read through and like pick out exactly what you need, but more often than not, it's been really helpful, especially when you're getting down to the nitty gritty if like pricing or if you've got to look at like licenses or something. - It's good to have like a baseline, even if you don't take it verbatim, I think that, yeah, that's helpful. - Other than that, I've been trying to go back and read the Harry Potter books. - Dude, I'm such a nerd for that. Man, honestly, like I, we got my brother, bought my wife every DVD. - Well, that's what I got for Christmas, so we're right. - Yeah, man, that's awesome. You had that set. We binge those and I became such an, I became so obsessed. I was like, man, I don't know, it rocked my world. So I'm with you on that. - Have you read the book still? - I've read the first four or five. - Okay, and you got it. - I know, man. - If you did an early Christmas present, the mail or something, there's supposed to be redesigning all the covers. I just was re-cool. - A month or two ago, I think they were coming out in April or May this year. Can't remember the designer. - Did you see the new, I think they just launched a new trailer for her new, the Fantastic Beasts. It's in the same world and everything. I think it just came out today, but it looks pretty good. Well anyway, man, I appreciate your time so much. - Yeah, thank you. - We'll do, let's do another episode just about Harry Potter and we'll start a different podcast, that'll just be the Harry Potter podcast. But I really appreciate it, man. I appreciate all the stuff you're doing. And thanks for taking all this time out away from work and your babies and all that good stuff. And I also, if I'm ever, are you, you're in Texas still? - Yes, sir. - All right, if I'm ever down there. Hey, where are you at in Texas? - I live in Dallas. - Dallas, okay. - I'm gonna be in Austin for ICON this year. So, but anyway, if I'm ever nearby, I'll give you a shout. - Yes, sir. - I really appreciate it, man. Thank you for your time. - Thanks, Andy. (upbeat music) - Kyle, thank you so much for being on the show. I hope everybody got so much from that and so much from his story. I think there's a lot of good lessons there about, you know, you don't have to do this only one way. It's not just, there's not just one path to success and you can start late, you can start differently and you can get to really interesting places. So thank you, Kyle. I really, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. It means a lot and I'm sure it means a lot to my audience. Thank you guys as always for listening. I hope this episode helps you find clarity and strategy for your creative career. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to our proud syndicate illustration age and thank you to Nate Yutash and his band Metavari for all the other tunes. I really appreciate it. Go check out fusecessions.com and go sign up for that workshop in Indianapolis on illustration. Thanks guys for that. And don't forget to go give me a good review on the old iTunes that helps other people find the show. Thank you guys so much. Do whatever you gotta do this week, man. Just do anything you've gotta do. I don't care if you break the law. Well, don't break the law, but other than breaking the law, other than hurting anybody, stealing anything, hurting yourself, don't do that. I mean, do nearly anything you've gotta do to stay peped up. I will talk to you guys soon. Bye-bye. (upbeat music) I did consider Barney a friend, and he's still a friend to this day. The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know, I love you. You love me. I call it the purple mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man. Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) From Academy Award-winning actor Matthew McConaughey's soulful and humorous picture book to New York Times bestselling author Kristen Hannah's The Women, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books is an author interview podcast, unlike any other. In 30 minutes or less, each episode of this chart-topping and webby award-winning show dives deep beneath the cover. Fostering friendship and camaraderie, support and curiosity, connection and compassion. Hosted by me, Zibi Owens, author, bookstore owner, and head of what the LA Times called the Zibiverse, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books has something for everyone, whether you're a mom like me or simply a busy reader. So don't miss out. Follow Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. New episodes are released every weekday, bringing books to life. [MUSIC] (gentle music)