Creative Pep Talk
079 - Finding Your Path with Sarah Walsh
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work, or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300, and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey everybody. - You're listening to the Creative PEP Talk podcast. This show is about commercial art, finding the balance between thriving financially, and being creatively fulfilled. Making good money, but also enjoying making the art at the same time, can it be done? I think so. It's a process. It's a live document, if you will. I'm your host, Andy J. Miller. Illustration Age is our proud syndicate. You can find this show at illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk on SoundCloud and iTunes. So today on the show, you are in for a treat. This is a candid conversation with my new friend, Sarah Walsh. Sarah Walsh makes things.com. Her work is fantastic. It's rooted in the mid-century, gouache kind of work, but it feels really fresh and new at the same time. She worked at Hallmark for some time. She's worked with Crayola. She does coloring books and all kinds of interesting things. She's got a new book called "A Hundred Things You Can Draw With A Triangle." It's out from the publisher, Corey. It's really, really beautiful, printed, really nice. It's basically a bunch of different things that she's made with a triangle that are prompts to help you make things. And it's really cool, it's really nice. And we had an awesome conversation. We talked about struggling early on, finding motivation, kind of turning your life around when things were tough and bad, which is something that I want to talk more on the show about, because I think in the industry, there's always this need to put on your best self and look like you've got all your stuff together. When really, behind the scenes, there's always struggles. There's always things that everybody's going through different things at different times. And it can feel really lonely when you're not aware that other people had to pull themselves up by their bootstrap and power through different things. So this episode, I hope that it's encouraging to all of you who are struggling to make this creative career happen. We talk about all kinds of different subjects like trusting your gut and all kinds of good stuff. I'm just gonna get on with it. I hope that you really enjoy it. Go check out her work, go follow her on Instagram. She's really fun and really talented. Without further ado, here is Sarah Walsh. (upbeat music) Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that sinks in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email. So if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts where team members can edit and play in real time has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, UX, agile or IT, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster from idea to outcome. Go to Miro.com to find out how that's M-I-R-O.com. (upbeat music) I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have. And I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. - Count it off the list. I think I was, oh, I know. Well, I was gonna say like I wanted to share some of that because I feel like I love, you know, artsy podcasts. And I really appreciate when artists get honest and talk about like before they are where they are and how, you know, that it wasn't an easy road sometimes or, and I think you and Draplin talked about this. This is what inspires me because I do forget, like on a day where I think I'm super cool and the like super pressure I'm, you know, putting on myself and I feel like I'm getting somewhere. And then other days, I don't. - Yeah. - And I forget how far I've come. And it's really a shame how I think us as humans sometimes, like when we are having a bad day, we just like land based the crap out of ourselves. And I'm like, just for a second, like I think it helps me like, wait a minute. Like, I need to chill out because like, it's been such a long road, but I'm the kind of person. It's almost like, it's like a blessing and a curse, but I live, I am not, I don't dwell in the past at all. Like, full of fault. - Yeah, yeah. - I don't have a lot of pictures around our house of like, I'm not like, I'm a sentimental person, but it's in the weirdest way. It's not like the typical way. - Yeah. - I'm just always thinking about the future and what I'm doing now. And so I just never really think about it. And then when I do, I'm like, wow, like that's pretty kind of freaking crazy. Like, you know, some of the obstacles. And so I just, I love hearing when other people share that because I think it's important for people that are out there trying to do stuff. And they just don't have like either a support system or they're in a situation where they just feel like, "Man, I don't know if this is ever going to happen." And if someone saw me when I was in my late teens, if I saw me, I'd be like, "That girl's going nowhere." She's on the food tip. - Me too. - You know, garbage town. - Absolutely. I would say before '18, I was like, everything about my existence was bad news bears and it was not going a good direction. And I think what you're saying, I'm hyper aware of this and it's actually something that, it's a part of the reason I do the podcast. Part of the reason I do my talks, the way that I do them is I feel like, you know, the fake it 'til you make it or putting your best foot forward or dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, all of that stuff creates false narratives of unrealistic narratives. I think a lot of times where it looks like the people that get anywhere interesting have kind of always been interesting, always been succeeding, you know, it's been working for them. And I've tried to go out of my way to be transparent to the degree that I kind of feel comfortable about. You know, I knew from when I was 18 that I really, really wanted to make a career out of art and I knew it was gonna be hard and then it was really, really hard to start. And actually, I think our stories have a lot of stuff in common. So first idea that I wanted to talk about, I think it's, I don't know, I looked it up on the internet. I think it's a Thomas Jefferson quote, but it's something that I heard that I think is. (laughing) - Like my pen and my first second reading. - Oh my gosh, no, I know. The thing is is that I like quotes, but every time I feel like you use one, you either sound either one of either extreme or you either sound really, I don't, I can't even think, just, you sound like you're trying to be really smart, but I'm not trying to be smart. I just, I think it's a good place to start. - My goal is like, I, before like mantra posters and all that stuff just became like so famous, I looked like, save, I would write a quote on a little strip and I would put it on my bulletin board. And I said to my coworker, I'm so mad at myself, but I was like, you watch, this man, this quote stuff is gonna be freaking huge. And I kick myself in the pants every day for like not, you know, being like the, the, - The quote protector. - Venture poster, yeah, like, I mean, but no, 'cause good quotes are awesome reminders. They're well-written little bites of knowledge that make you feel good. So lay it on me. And lay it on the worst, I love picking apart a conversation and going off on tangents. And everything you said, I, there's like eight possible tangents that I can go on right now. One being that I also, I just, I always go back to this. You feel like, you know what the quote thing, you feel like you have to stake your claim or something just to get a little bit of, you know, satisfaction from that. I had an adult coloring book in 2009. And my wife was like, I think there's something to this coloring book thing. And I was like, no, it's, people like it because it's indie rock. Like, you know, nobody cares about the coloring book. And I'm like, oh, Andy, you're an idiot. You listen to your wife. That's the rule. - I know, yeah. That's the, that's the end of the day advice. Listen to your wife. You know, I mean, can I tell you that I bought that coloring book? - Really? - Way back when? - Really? - Oh gosh. - Yeah, my best friend who I was in a band with, I was like, this is so cool. Like, and I think it was an urban outfitters. And I was like, I freaking love this. - Oh man, that's awesome. It's really a weird part of the story now 'cause it, I don't know. It doesn't, anyway, doesn't matter. But yeah, back to quotes, see how we could do this. We could go off on these crazy tangents. The quotes, I, and someone who loves communication, I love when something's communicated clearly, but I hate when it becomes such a platitude or a cliche that loses its meaning. So I hate when words lose their meaning. But anyway, Thomas Jefferson, I believe he said that a crisis precipitates change. And I found in my own, you know, story that some of the harder points or things that are really different about my story are where I get a lot of my drive and desire. And you'd kind of mentioned early on that you had some things happen that kind of kicked things off. - Oh, I'm so wired that way. Like it's like, again, another curse and a blessing because as you get older, if nothing terrible is happening to you. - Do you create it? Are you like, do I have to constantly revolving tornado around me to get done? Or is it like, how do you, you know, my husband and I talk about a lot of different things. And one of the things we talked about with marriage, I hope I don't send you on another tangent, but to me-- - Don't worry, it's gonna happen a billion times. - To me, like, mediocracy is the biggest challenge of everyday life and getting through it. To me, the crazy stuff is the stuff I can handle. I mean, I'm my best self when I feel like I have this deep purpose. And I think before my daughter, you know, coming from a home that had a lot of love, but a lot of chaos and, you know, just a lot of stuff that made me feel like very alone for a long time, like, I had to kind of figure out something deep down in order to get through stuff. And then you also do things as a young teenager that you're like, oh my God, can't believe I did that. Can't believe I'm even, like, alive. - Yes, yeah. - I mean, I think I drank more when I was, like, 14 than when I turned 21. You know, you just think I was the same thing. - Yeah, I was exactly the same thing. - You're just, like, a little dirty, but, you know? (laughing) Anyway, so I-- - Teenagers. - As a young adult, when you turn, like, 19 or 20, like the reality of how you've been living really hits you because at the same time, you're trying to figure out, like, I am gonna soon be completely responsible for myself, and it'll rain down on you. And I think for me, like, I was seeking out some kind of stability. And so, I was like, I know, I'll get married to a total stranger. (laughing) I mean, I didn't know him that long. - Yeah, I don't know. - And then he was in the, he was in the Navy, and we moved to Halfway Across the Country. And I was like, what the? What have I done? And then, you know, not that far after Walkiegan, like, right outside of Chicago, so cold. - Yeah. - But I was super young. I don't even think I really knew how to clean a house. Like, I was just a complete mess. And I had gone to, like, a semester or two of college and, like, before that. And I was like, I don't wanna do this. This is, you just, when you're not in the right mind frame and you're lost, like, nothing will get done. So, I just kind of went away in this weird, bad decision cocoon. And like, then, you know, I had a little girl and we ended up separating and, you know, I just was like, this is terrible. You're a bad person. Like, I have to get out of here. And I just moved back home. And I just, I had to, like, figure out what the heck to do. And I think it was then that I just kind of realized, like, why are you scared? Like, you've always wanted, it wasn't even like, like I wrote in my notes to you. Like, I don't even ever think I even thought about, what do I wanna be when I grow up? It was just this underlying current that was always with me. And it's a weird thing. It's like this voice that I've always had. Kind of, you know, whispering in my ear. And also, when I spent a lot of time alone as a child, and I would just draw and draw and draw. And it became such a safe space for me that when you said, like, what are some of the things, what's a topic that you feel like has made an impact in my career? And I, you know, it's kind of sad and cool at the same time, but it's kind of like tragedy and certain things in my life that have pushed me to art. Art is such a safe space for me that I can't even divide myself and creating. So it's, my motivation is that it's my safe space. So even if I'm getting paid for it, it's still something that is so ingrained in me that I don't, you know, I mean, everyone has their days of like a lack of self-confidence and that kind of thing, but even on a bad day when I'm not feeling so great about what I'm making, I still feel pretty good, you know? - Yeah, and actually before, so sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to say that all of that stuff, you know, I really resonates with me. And I know that it's really going to resonate with my audience because I know that everybody has all these things. And I found that the disconnect between life and art, like you're saying, you can't even make that disconnect and I actually think that that's a massive, major problem with a lot of people's journey as artists is that there's their artistic self and the art industry and the way that they present themselves. And there's a massive disconnect between that and then who they really are, what their experiences are, what they like life and art being so disconnected. Like that-- - Yeah, I can't even imagine that. I can't, and to me, that would be really hard. That would make it very hard to kind of jump into the world and feel confident. Like, I really can't imagine kind of functioning that way. I mean, if I don't make something after a couple of days, I get really anxious. Like, I just get really weird and I just like ugh. And I mean, even if it's just a drawing or it doesn't have to be, I mean, and I'm not even talking about client work because like right now I'm working on a coloring book thing. - Yeah. - And I'm just doing-- - You're welcome, by the way. (laughing) I hate making claims like that. It makes you sound like such an idiot. - I started this thing. - No, but I have to give it to you, Andy. You kind of did. - I did. - You kind of, I mean, Joanna Bassford, guys here. - I don't know. I don't know that. I can't claim anything about that. - No, but she also like, after your wave, I think she was like, you know what? You know, she's both pretty sick. You're like, I think there's something to this that's the worst English accent, please edit that out. - My wife's British, she's gonna be very committed to that. - I know. - I'm gonna show her that. - We seek that out. (laughing) - Never. That's gonna be the opening blow. - The P.N.T. - The P.N.T. (upbeat music) - Like I said, I just, I was like, why are you scared? Like, I'm just, I'm gonna go back to school. And I went back to school, but it wasn't the school that I wanted. And I had to get my grade point average up because my SATs were so bad. I didn't get into the school, my choice, right after high school. And I would tell people what my score was and they'd be like on both. And I was like, oh my God, I'm just gonna go jump off the cliff. - No, my God. - So, I went back just to get my grade point average up and then I applied to the school that I wanted. By the way, it's a tiny school that no one has ever heard of, but the teachers were great. And they were all, they all went to Tyler. So they infused the program with that. Jimmy Fallon actually went to my school. - Yeah, anyway. - Yeah, that's not for me, yeah. - I'm like, that's like the claim to fame for me. But, so anyway, I was like, okay, I'll go back. And then somebody had been dating at the time, was like, it's gonna take you forever to go part-time. You should just go full-time. And it's more expensive to go part-time. It's sad that like a dude I was dating at the time, very sweet guy, you know, kind of, he was a good friend. And he was like, you can do this. And I was like, you know what, you're right. I think I'm gonna do this. But, you know, taking risks like that, and I had no money. I had some crazy financial issues, like terrible. I was living at home. I had taken out a student loan to renovate my grandmother's basement so that we could live there. - What? (laughs) - I mean, it was some, you know, my grandmother and my mom were really supportive and helpful. And I couldn't have done it without them. And so, but I went back to school full-time, and my teachers, they were just so incredible. They were, I mean, I gotta tell you, for a small school that doesn't have like a great, you know, like, I think within the industry, they were, you know, there were some whisperings like, yeah, that's a good school. 'Cause we would get like the Milton Glaser internship every year. Like, so, and then, you know, I got sent to the New York Art Directors Club. They, you know, our teachers would pick like one or two or three kids from the program that they thought were really good, and I got chosen. But, you know, it was, I, you know, you think about some of the things like, how did I do that? Like, I don't know how you do a podcast, teach and design and have children and do personal work. Like, I don't know how you do that either. You're gonna look back later and be like, how did I do this? Because at one point, I had, I was going to design school full-time, I had an internship, I was waitressing, and I was a single parent. I would get tension headaches, and I'd have to sit on the cat. I would have just, like, I'd be done, you know, I just, but I did it, and I did a really good job. I kicked, and I think I was rewarded for it because when I went to the job fair, this guy from Homer, Peter, saw this, like, so embarrassing, but at the time, I thought it was so cool. It was this wooden-- - Go in the deep detail here, please. - No, like, it was this wooden, like, modular thing, and on each side was like an illustration of me, like, I can do computer, I can paint, I can do this. So it was like, if you turned it, it would still be, you know, it's like those picture books, and he saw it, and he was like, oh, but it was toward the end of the day, and we actually took our name tags off of where we went to school because, like, people would go by and they'd squint, and then they'd just, like, keep walking. So we kind of all looked at each other, like, they're just, they're not even looking at our books because they don't know the school, so we just took our things off. - Yeah, yeah. - And so, yeah, so he was like, hey, you want to come out for a job interview, in Kansas City, and I was like, I don't even know where Kansas City is, but sure, why not? And I never, you know, considered Hallmark as a place because at the time, you know, when you're in design school, you think you're this so hot. You think you're so freaking cool, and when I think about student work and how bad it is, and the ratio of how cool you think you are, it's so laughable. - And actually, that's my biggest, my biggest, I teach a class in art school, and my biggest goal is just to knock them down a peg and be like, look, the world is going to beat you down, and you don't know anything. - No, it's fair. - But you don't want to beat down people's spirits, but when you just know that you've been in that place, and then what you know now, it's unreal. - And I love them that, I'm like, look, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to 2007 Andy. Andy, listen, you're a moron. You don't know any of this stuff. You think you're better than the teachers, and you're not. - Oh, I know. - Stop it. - I know, and that's such a pet peeve of mine now, and I'm mortified. I want to go back in time and just be a fly on the wall to how I might've come off to someone that was trying to teach me something. I'm like, please God, please have let me be this sweet, humble girl that was just like, yes, everything you're saying is gold, and I'm going to write it down and keep it forever, because you are wise, and I know nothing. But I know I probably didn't do that. - I was not, no. I was very arrogant, I don't know why. - Let's just come with a territory of like getting through the difficult program. You just put on ginormous balls, and just like, you know, whatever, but. - I think that there's another side too. I've just, I've heard it call just being kind of delusional, thinking that you're, there's a part of it that you need to believe that it's going to work out, you know, that you, you know, to put in the work and all that stuff. Now, I want to just sift through all these things, you said, and kind of poke at them from different places, but let's, I want to talk about like, making stuff every day. That's become like a giant deal to me, and actually a lot of people don't understand that I get up. I try to get up about, it sounds like bragging. It's not, it's a really dumb thing to brag about. - You're so fraggy, right? - Dude, I get up so early, you don't even understand. No, my hustle is so crazy. No, I get up at five a.m. most days, because, because though, from five a.m. to eight, I feel like nobody can claim that time. And so I, most of the time I do personal work, and I do it because it keeps me sane. - Yeah. - I do that, something small that I can put my name to, that the rest of the day then feels like, just icing on the cake because I made something, you know? And do, how do you like, do you do stuff like that? - Well, I have aspirations to get up at like, five in the morning and do that, and I have the times I do get up. Sometimes I try to get up and do yoga, so it's in the morning, and that's kind of in a way I feel like, but I think, you know, I do it at the worst times, and I probably shouldn't even be saying this, 'cause if like a client is listening, or I think about when I post something on Instagram. - Yes, I do, I don't know if it's like. - I'm like, if I were the client, I'd be like, what the who is she doing? - What is she doing right now? - She should be working on my project. But like, I think that I do. - But it's managing your energy level. - It is. - It is, it is for me, yeah. Sorry, I just told me. - No, it, it, it like is absolutely necessary. I become like a wilted flower. If I don't like, basically what I do is I waste a bunch of time in the morning, like looking at Instagram and Pinterest and checking my email like 50 times. It's like this gross ritual that I do that I'm like really wanting to get rid of, 'cause I think I'm like, the 10 minutes you just spent, you could have made a piece of art. But sometimes I have to like warm up, and but I feel like this is like something I'm trying to work on where I kind of just wanna like put all that aside and start with a piece of art. But sometimes, you know, if I do that, I feel great. If not, usually what happens is I'll, you know, check my email, blah, blah, blah. And then I'll get into the client work that I have. Like I usually am very good about like methodically, well, I have to work on multiple projects at once. Because it keeps me like not focusing on just one thing and like killing it, like kind of like nibble away. And it's like you don't put too much pressure on any one project and it just kind of works. But then I'll take a break and I'll treat myself. Like I'll be like, okay, if I do like three lay out drawings, then I can do whatever I want. But when I do my personal work, it's kind of like my (grunts) like it's like my, like I'm getting away with something. You know, it's like, I just feel good about like it's for me. And I'm doing it even when I, sometimes I do it like at the worst possible. Like I'll have like something to do. Again, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but it gets me. - I'm gonna co-sign it anyway. So I'll go and I'll go down with you if we get thrown out of the industry. I do the same thing. - Well, like back to your point to smooth it all over. It gives me this energy boost to feel inspired, to go back and finish strong. Instead of like, oh my God, I want this to be over. Or like, it kind of gives me a mental break. And then it like makes me feel more lovingly toward the project, the client work. Because I do love it. It's just, it's us. It's like, it's so funny. Again, I have a conversation with my husband about like, you know, when I worked at Hallmark and then I did my personal work. Again, still important, but when I quit and I was like, I don't know why I thought it would be different. It's exactly the same. It's like my client work, my Hallmark work was my client work. - Yes. - And now my client work is, it doesn't make it personal work. It is more personal. - Yeah. - It is definitely more personal, but it's not my own. So I think that's a tricky thing, but once I finally understood that. I mean, I just know I get all bent out of shape if I don't do something personal. Like, I just have to. It's just so weird. But it's just the way-- - Actually, I think I've heard a lot of like, you know, business podcasts and all these other kinds of podcasts talking about, you know, getting away from managing your productivity and pushing into systematically managing your energy level. And I think that for me, the more that I've accepted that and planned for it, rather than felt guilty because it was a necessary evil or something. - Yeah. - Like, and that's why-- - Yeah. - Yeah, that's why I get up at five a.m. because I've realized that I need to do that personal stuff. Whether anybody else understands it, it makes everything else work. And so-- - Oh, it is. - Rather than-- - It really does. - And so I try to encourage people to, you have to embrace it to a degree. And obviously, you have to have a little guilt, otherwise it'll get out of hand. But yeah, I do the same thing. You know, I have to have that kind of balance. - Well, my agent talks a lot about like, she has this cute little quote, you know, when we're getting ready for like trade shows, you know, like Sir Tax or Print Source. She's like, even if you have a lot of client work, if you work, if you do this when you're busy, you'll never be slow. And it's like planting seeds for, you know, this is so cheesy, but I gotta give a shout out to the studio ladies, and Lilla, and Susan, and Joanne, and Rainey, and Julia, and Patty, because they're really great ladies, and I appreciate them so much. - And this is a Lilla Rogers studio. - Yeah, right, yeah, and she represents you. She, that seems like a real establishment. It's something that I've kind of been aware of for a long time, and they seem to be taking care of people and doing awesome stuff. - Yeah, they're just, they're really like, I got to meet all of them in person, and one of the things I was really nervous about leaving Hallmark was like the sense of community, and how kind everyone is, and supportive, and it's kind of like a version of that, and I didn't think it existed outside of Hallmark, because Hallmark is such a bizarre, weird, magical, complex place, and so when I got out, and then I, through email, I knew they were great, and we had some skipes, but then when I met them in person, I was like, oh my God, I just wish I lived closer to these people. They're just really cool, freaking people, like really down to earth, and Lilla's hilarious, and Susan's like super wise, and Joanne is like crazy, the energy funny, and rainy, super sweet, and they all have their strengths, and if I hadn't gotten, like, when I was thinking about quitting Hallmark, I just, I think I was done with the politics, and I just had this desire and made a branch off on my own, and I was like, maybe I can do this, and then, you know, I swear to God, this is something I feel like sometimes, if you're a self-aware person, I think that's a good start, and then I think if you kind of key into the universe, I think it's so important to put stuff out there and just feel liberated by it, and you whisper, I whisper little secrets into the air, like what I want, and what I feel like, you know, and I swear to God, as soon as I got my crap together after having my daughter, I feel like my life has just, every little stage has just fallen into place ridiculous, and with Lilla, I had, like you, I'd always, I mean, I knew they were around, but I love, they were such an influence. I was on the kids team when I started at Hallmark, and I pretty much between them and Mary Blair and all the '60s artists that ever existed, that used gouache, like Jake B. Blair and Mary Blair and La Provenson's and all those guys. - Those are my guys too. - Oh man, like, I just, they were a big influence, and I thought, man, being a part of that agency is like flying to the moon, and when I, it's like, seemed impossible. It was like, not even something I thought that I would attain, and then when I started realizing I wanted to quit, and I started talking to some friends that did freelance, and they were like, "You should submit your stuff to her," and I was like, "Are you freaking nuts?" Like, just like thousands of submissions a year, like that's just insane. I appreciate you saying that, but, and then when I, I was like, up late one night, I was pregnant, should have been sleeping. My husband was on a ski trip in Colorado, and I'm like trolling Pinterest, and I'm looking at my old board, 'cause I'm looking at my work, I'm like-- - Been there. - What can I do, yeah, I mean, it's just something, sometimes I love seeing my work all together, 'cause it kind of gives me an idea of like, what I wanna do, or what, I'm really bad about not revisiting things that could be cool, like, I don't explore. - Yeah, I'm too, I like, I do that. I get bored with stuff, wanna move on to the next stuff all the time, yeah. So I was looking, and I see this comment, in Lilla's picture, she's like, I love this, do you have an agent? And I was like, oh, eight more, eight, like-- - Oh man. - It was like one in the morning. - Yeah. - And I was like, you are kidding, and literally like a week or two before, it was when a friend of mine, very talented illustrator, took book illustrators named Laura Haliska-Beeth, she was like, you should submit your seven. So just, we were kind of like, I think, drawn to each other in a very organic, diversity kind of way, and then I waited like a month before submitting my stuff, 'cause I was just like terrified. - Mm. - And I guess, it was a Friday afternoon, and I wrote my little letter, and I got my JPEGs together, and I guess Friday, that day, in the morning, they had met and looked at all the submissions, and my name had come up, but I hadn't submitted, and they had shown someone. - Well, my gosh. - And then I emailed them with my thing, and they were just like burr, and they said that my timing was just like ridiculous, and I don't, I mean, that's just freaky weird. - Yes, now, let's just stop there for a second. I wanna talk a little bit about agencies, but before we go there, something that I, it's a struggle of mine with a podcast, and I'd love, 'cause I know you listen to some of the podcast, love to just like ruminate on this. I'm a weird guy who likes, I don't even like the term of this, but the kind of what a lot of people call woo woo, or whatever, I feel like I naturally gravitate towards mystery and weirdness in the universe, and I like when things are like that, but I also know that a lot of people hate that, and so I'm really fascinated by the places where kind of science confirms a, maybe there's a practice that like you were saying, like whispering things into the universe, maybe there's a practice where either spiritual tradition or folk lore or whatever has developed these things that seem very mysterious, but there's actually scientific reasoning of why that works, and so although I prefer it to be weird, I would rather it be weird than science. - It might be a little bull thing. - Maybe you can just be bucks, yeah. - I think you said something about energy yesterday on your IG feed, and I really believe that it's like a very basic thing of energy. - Oh, right, yeah, when I was talking about-- - You know what I mean? - When you're putting out, like science-- - Yeah, when you just put out stuff-- - Yes. - It's like stuttering, I'm so excited. I was just like, it's crazy though, because I've had it happen to me so many times. So many times. - Let me just preface those real quick. Can I just cut you all out completely? - Yeah, yeah. - So like, where that came from was an episode of Radiolab where they talk about how that, you know, I can't remember what animal it is, but there's this animal where they tested and when they're, when the animal's afraid, it's giving off like pheromones and things that make other animals afraid. And so people do the same sorts of things where if you've ever went into a situation and you have an intuition like, there was something wrong with that guy. That person might have been feeling anxiety, giving off a certain type of energy or pheromone, something substantial, something scientifically accurate that affected your biochemistry. And that's all fact. And I think, I would suspect that as science continues, we'll probably know more about the stuff that we're talking about. Maybe there's nothing to it. I hope that there really is 'cause in my life it's been such a thing where, you know, I've found that writing down every year I pretty much write down less like a goal list and more like a wish list. Yeah. And if you do the same thing. You'd be blown away by how accurate that comes to be. And I don't know, is it because my, I start making the right type of work and so that I'm in that zone and then I get recognized by those clients I wanted to work with? Is it, you know, is it more magical than that? I don't know, but I do think specifically naming the things that you're trying to accomplish either helps you strategize better or. It's visually, you're visualizing it, you're thinking about it, you're putting it out there. And this is gonna sound. And I know people are gonna have a need, there are people. There are some people that are gonna hear that and they're gonna be like, yeah, I love that stuff. And some people that are gonna be like, I hate when people talk about that mumbo jumbo, but I'm trying to find a place where there's a meeting place where we can both take away stuff. - Yeah, no, I hear you. Well, like people that aren't into that, like, I mean, is it because nothing, I think it's something, if you have never experienced it, then you don't understand it. - Yes, yeah. - So it's happened to me so many times that at this point, I'm like, all right, what is going on? Like something's going on, somebody's looking out for me. - Yeah, yeah. - But it is definitely looking out for me. I mean, not to say that I have had crappy things happen to me. - Totally. - You know, like, you know, I lost my mum, like six years ago in our 70s, you know, like things have happened to me. Like, personal thing. But aside, the things that we can control, which is basically nothing, but we can control what our heart wants and that kind of thing. - And then what we choose to do on a regular basis, I think, you know, there is something to be said for, you know, I've noticed that a lot of these things that I wanna do in my art career are pretty significant achievement, like things that are gonna take a significant amount of investment in a specific direction. And so I do think that there's, and the thing is, is I personally am not a skeptic, but I have enough skeptics around that I feel the need to meet them halfway, because, but I feel the same as you. There's so many things in my life that I couldn't possibly explain in so many ways that I feel like I've benefited from weird things that I hate to not give credit to that, or at least, you know, help other people perpetuate it, even in the most practical, simple terms. - Yeah, I mean, you don't have to, I think someone cannot believe in magic, but they can't argue with the fact that like, why not just write what you want down or like talk about it and do think, and have like actions backing up that talk, and sooner or later, but you know, you talk about patience a lot on the show, and I think that that's a huge thing. It's so hard to be patient. - Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls, and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met, and we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well, and we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers, and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice, so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in, with more visibility, connection with your audience, and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk, or AndyJPizza.substack.com, and I hope to see you at this month's meetup. (upbeat music) - It's holiday shopping time, y'all. It's time to freak out! - Ah! - Not because uncommon goods is here to make it easy. Listen, all I did was click the "For Her" section on this site, and I instantly saw five things that I could get, Sophie, don't tell her, but I'm thinking either the National Park sweaters, the tea advent calendar. There's also, just below that, little bubble tea kit for my oldest, and then I saw one of these, you know, the retro little viewfinder orange, real viewer things, but you can make it your own photos. Okay, it might not make sense, just you have to go check it out yourself. Here's the thing, I have seriously never seen so many good options for gifts online in one place, and unlike lots of other convenient options, shopping uncommon goods actually support small businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary. (upbeat music) - Actually, I think that a lot of it comes from being a middle, I've got the middle child. You know, they say that your birth order is like one of the biggest environmental factors on you, and so for me, being a middle child, I'm like the peacekeeper, so I just feel like I have to play both sides a lot of the time, and so I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable right in the middle of those things, and I like, I guess I also like to stack, I always tell my students, like, stack the deck in your favor, so, you know, don't, they'll tell me, I'll make them have a website and get them a proper email and all these kinds of things, and they'll always come back with, well, I know a guy who all they have is a blog spot, and they're killing it, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, you stack the deck in your favor, do everything you can, 'cause it's a tough game. - That stuff drives me crazy when I see, I mean, yeah, I think the whole comparison thing is just, I got a, I got a quote for you. I don't even know. - Let's go into the quote game. - Ready? - Yes. - I don't remember who said it though. - It was Thomas Jefferson probably. - It was George Washington. - Yeah, George Washington. - No, it was good. Comparison is the thief of joy. - Yeah, yeah, let's see that. - It's like, it really, like, as soon as you, you could have everything, and as soon as you compare, it's like, you're just pooping all over it, you know? - Totally. - It's like, you're not, you're just, you're, it's so, you're so devaluing. Everything you've worked for, it's, it's really sad. - Can I play devil's advocate for a minute, because I agree with you completely. And I, but I would, I instantly, again, middle child, hear the voice of someone else who says, well, what about the ways that it motivates you? So I, I do think that-- - That's true. - I get, sometimes I have a day where I'll notice something about a peer of mine, and I'll, you know, that part of me that's not so nice will be jealous and be like, how do they, how are they doing that job or how do they have this crazy following? When I'm like, working so hard and doing all these things and I'll get, you know, very, you know, fired up, but some, so sometimes that just ruins my day and it sucks. - And that's what, that's the kind of comparison I'm talking about. - That's right. - It's just, it's so sad to me because, yeah, because everything you just said, it's like so out of your control. And we also don't know, we don't know how hard that person has worked, or what-- - Totally. - If they've had like this terrible life, and this was the only one good thing that they have going, and it's just like, such a, you know, bad thing. And so, but on a, on a good thing that you're saying, I think if it's framed correctly in your mind, you can use it as a tool. But if you don't frame it properly, it's bad. - Yeah, I do think trying to, one of the things that I've learned to do is when I'm feeling all of those feelings is try to ground it in reality. Like you said, you know, think about things like, okay, how long has that person been going? You know, what, what school were they able to go to? What, you know, what did they get out? Did they get a leg up by, you know, getting a sweet hookup on a job that you didn't have early on? Like, who do they know? All those things, not to discredit them, but just try to like understand, and then when I have like a, when I feel like I have somewhat of a real, a realistic frame of it, think about, well, is there something I can learn about this that I don't already know from them? Is there something that you can take away? - And that always feels so much better, and so much more healthy. It's like before you have like an itchy wool sweater on, and then you just found like a cool cotton t-shirt. - Yeah. - It's like, ah, because I feel like-- - That's good. - Well, it's like such a knee-jerk reaction too, which sucks, 'cause it's just, it's like how you immediately react. Like, but it's the same as, like, as you're saying this, I'm thinking about like, on a bad day when I'm feeling really gross of lucky, and I see someone who has like something really cool, and I'd really, I'm not like this very much, but I'll get on like a whiny, bratty-- - Yes. - Mode, and I see somebody, I'm like, how come they have, isn't it? - Yeah. - And then I'm like, do you even want that? Like, you don't even want that. - That is a great question. - Yes. - Why are you freaking, like, why are you all of a sudden just zeroing in on this thing that you didn't even care about? Oh, this is something I used to trick myself, and I have to tell you this, because it's pretty good. But it's along the lines of what we're saying is, sometimes if I see that, sometimes I'll think about what would you see right now that you'd be mad if you didn't do it? Like, is there something that you just come across right now, and you'd be like, damn, I wish I thought of that, or I wish I did that. Would I be mad if, you know, and I try to think of it that, I mean, it's kind of hard to think of that specific thing, but it's kind of like, it gets me to think about what I really wanna do with my time. - Yeah, totally. - When we're feeling overwhelmed and we don't have a lot of time, what's the one thing right now that just is so me and so, like, in my scope of what I should be doing, and somebody else just came along and did it, what would that be, and what I pissed? So it just kind of helps to light a fire under my eye. - That's really good, because I'm actually obsessed with, I'm developing a class right now, I'm doing a bunch of things where what are the right questions to ask yourself to kind of utilize as a thought experiment to get into your subconscious, to figure out what are your real drives, what are your real interests, and what are the things that are gonna sustain you for a long period of time, energy-wise, and that's one of the things that one of the best things I ever did was stop and really ask yourself if you could do one thing, and that's all you could really accomplish in a significant way, what would it be, like, what would it, and I do think that kind of, it can be almost any kinds of questions, but taking that self-inventory on a visceral level, not just, not like, not a cerebral, like that would be nice, it wouldn't be nice to be recognized or whatever. - No, it's more like what drives you, it's like the underlying current of what kind of, the work that really is so much of you, I think that's why the question works for me because it gets to the heart of like, what I should be doing, and what I would probably do really good at, because I love it, so, you know, that's not the thing. - There's a book called "Think and Grow Rich", I've talked about it for. - Oh yeah, I wrote it down. - Yes, I've heard about, I heard it from James Victoria, he always talks about it, he's a designer, and I read a pretty big chunk of it, and it's an old book, it's kind of silly in some ways, but the core idea is that, these people that go on to do these really significant achievements are, or at some point, became extremely familiar with a burning desire, and when you, when there is that really, that clarity of like, I know without a shadow of a doubt that this is the thing that I want to do, the amount of the power behind that, and I find that the students, their biggest struggle, is they end up in an apathetic place because they really are not in tune with what they really want, and I think that road is a long road, it's not something you just do it in an afternoon, but it's like, I think I wrote this in my initial email to you about some thoughts, is I think one thing that I've realized is that as an artist, I think we have, we're like a puzzle, and when we are a young artist, it's like we have a few little pieces, and as we go through life and experience different things and put ourselves out there and be open to learning new things, we, I think we gather the puzzle pieces quicker, but I still think it shouldn't be like going out to IKEA and getting your living room furniture and your whole house and you're done, like it has to be like this curated, eclectic, based on experience, when you're ready to have that experience, when you're mentally ready to process what just happened and like put it back into yourself and put it out as art, like all that is really important timing, but like, you know, when I was in high school, my art teacher, she said, you're so tight, we're so tight, and we were doing like fine arts, like photorealism, pencil, like, look at how good I could draw these sunglasses in the moment, but instead of saying you're so tight, I wish she had been like, maybe I push her the other way, and, or you know, not like I'm not blaming my high school teacher, but I just feel like sometimes it took me so, it took me so long to figure out what my place was in the art world, because now it's so different, but back, I'm gonna date myself, but back in my day. - It just was like-- - You can't see her, but she's actually a 75-year-old woman, and she's in a nursing home, it's a weird conversation. - Wait, we put my teeth back in. But like, there wasn't, like, right now is like insane, compared to how it was, like, even 10 years ago, or like, seven years ago, and, so there was either fine art or graphic design for me, and there wasn't a lot of places you could take illustration, and there wasn't at my school, but, so I tried fine art, and I was just bored to death, 'cause I think I like ideas, and I like concepts, and I like, there's something weird, one of the reasons why I love Andy Warhol is because he had this, like, industrialism about it. - Yeah, I loved that, too, and I mean, I love hearing about his idea, and I love the space in between the accessibility of commercial, and-- - Yes. - Yeah, I love expressing myself, but I don't like it to the point of just self-indulgent, kind of navel-gazing, and the way I always kind of, the kind of way I keep going back to it is like, you know, I like making art in such a way that it's like making a meal for a friend, rather than making a meal and taking a photo of it, and showing it to my friends online, you know, like, for me, fine art often feels like, fine art is like, I made this meal for myself, and you can look at it, but you're not part of the equation, whereas I wanted to be in exchange where I'm actually communicating, adding value, and part of the focus is on them, and I like that kind of exchange. - Yeah, I mean, it's definitely more accessible, and, well, and I think graphic design, it was like solution-based, and that really got my brain engaged. - Yeah. - I think fine art wasn't at the time, because I just wasn't, I think some artists, if you're meant to be a fine artist, you have this vision, and your brain is engaged, and young, you just have like this voice, but that was not my, I didn't have a voice, 'cause it wasn't my thing, but I didn't know it at the time, and so I ended up doing graphic design, and I just, I fell in love with type, and the idea of like visual communication, and simplifying it, and like the idea of symbols, and things like that. But my teachers were so cool, because they all came from Tyler, and they, at Tyler, they just encouraged you to solve the problem, like whether it was, if it was type, if it was a graphic illustration, whatever solved the problem. - Yeah, yeah. - Like Paul Rand, you know what I mean? Like, I love, loved his stuff, and-- - Actually, just a, sorry, just to go off on a tangent real quick, 'cause I think it's interesting, and I think that the state of things have become kind of like annoying to me, in that there's this really massive wall in between illustration and design, and you know, if you talk about Paul Rand, like half of his solutions were pictures, and that didn't make him an illustrator, and actually, when I was in school, the first year I was in an illustration, and they had this very specific way of thinking about problem solving, and actually switched to graphic design, because they seemed to be able to answer a problem, however they wanted, and that's what I wanted to do, yeah. - But it's interesting, though, a lot of, like, my husband went to a ring-ling, and the design department and the illustration department, there's a real divide, and the design, like, they didn't really encourage hand lettering. It was very font-based, and very more, like, Swiss design, like, really rigid. - So it just kind of depends on the school you go to, I guess, but they let me draw as much as I wanted, and to really kind of hone my little, like, baby, baby, artist voice, and I, you know, like I said, I thought I was, like, super hot. - Yeah. - But it got me my first job that lasted a long time, and a job that I learned so much at, everyone there always says it's like going to graduate school, and it really was. - And that's Hallmark. - I'd love to talk a little bit about that, because I think you said some interesting things in the email. When you went to Hallmark, you said that you, initially, were kind of turned off by the idea of that as a job, it didn't sound maybe great. I don't know, it wasn't speaking to you. Didn't seem sexy at the time, but you said that you had some kind of internal inclination, so do you want to just tell us the story of going there and what that felt like? - Yeah, I mean, I got on a plane, and there was a couple other people being interviewed, and so it was kind of this excitement, like, you know, this is a big deal, you know? And so, I think I was just, once I got inside the building, I was just blown away with the facilities they had, the talent that, I think they're definitely as a company, starting to reveal more of the talent within the doors, but at the time, I had no idea. And this was like, just 18 years ago. I, well, I was hired in 2001. August 27th was my first day, it's like weird, I know that. But, yeah, I just, I was like blown away. Like, and I just, I was like, I'm gonna take this job. Like, I'm not gonna go on any other interviews, I don't care. Like, I would be an idiot to pass this up. Like, this just seemed so fun. And then, when I started, I thought I was gonna be on the humor team, and then they switched, they flipped the script on me, and they put me on the kids team. And initially, I was bombed. And then, I was like, wow, this couldn't have been like a better fit for me, because in reality, my whole life, I'd always wanted to like illustrate children's books. - Yep. - And it was like a baby version of that. - Yeah. - And, you know, I was on the kids team, we all hit it off, and it was like this golden era of just like the most fun, talented people. Everyone was from somewhere else. - Yes. - You know, I mean, I even, we started a girl band. We literally, like, we were four cubes together, and we were like, oh, let's start a band. And it lasted for six years. - That's awesome. - And we wrote our own little pop songs, and we were all artists, we screenprints at our little EP. I brought it just to show you. - That's awesome. But like, I mean, stuff like that was happening, like really magical things. I met my husband there. - Yeah. - You know, he's an amazing guy, a really talented artist, and-- - Did a tad carpenter's dad work there still? - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - He always sings praises about all of that, about their business and everything. - It's a really, I mean, corporations, they have their thing. - The dad side, yeah, there's definitely, yeah. - But for a corporation, I think Hallmark does try really hard, you know, to, I mean, I can say such a mix of things, but I have nothing, in the end, I, it was a bittersweet thing when I left, because I knew something I had to do, but I knew I would miss the community. And the cool thing is, is I freelance for them all the time. My husband still works there, you know? I mean, I feel like a weird outsider kind of, because I have a different life now, and I'm kind of like, still in the Hallmark community, 'cause a lot of my friends still work there. But then I'm like, this floating around person, where I haven't, I don't know if I ever will find like my tribe outside of Hallmark, because it's just the nature of like freelance. - And it sounds like Lila Rogers, that all of that sounds a little bit, that's working for ya. - They're my satellite tribe, yeah. - It's hard to, that's a hard thing about freelancers. The independence of that is a tricky thing to navigate. I mean, for me, it's a daily, it's a daily struggle to be so alone. - It is. - And I love it. I honestly have no complaints, I love it. I don't know if I could do it any other way, but just navigating it alone is a bigger challenge than you could possibly imagine. - I hear you completely. And it's, 'cause I think about it, I'm like, well, nobody made me quit, but I don't, I didn't wanna do that anymore. It's just life. - Like every single choice you make has like, stuff that goes along with it. - Every season is, there's lost with every, every, you know, if you move into a better season, there's still loss, everything that changes, there's a form of loss. And I think, I think before you get that, you don't maybe realize it before you do the transition. But one thing I wanted to talk about is, there's all this talk always about whether you should go to art school or not. And actually, if you listen to the podcast, people know that I support. I think that there are amazing things about a lot of art schools and I love so much of it. But I'm always interested in getting to the heart of, you know, okay, what's the power of art school or what's the power of working at a place like that? Because then we can maximize it. So I think like anything, there are things about art school that maybe worked 20 years ago and they don't work as well now. And, you know, with the internet things have changed enough. And so anyway, I'm always interested in critical thinking. And one of the things that I hear you saying and has been true in my life is that nothing, one thing that is a non-negotiable for success, I think in the creative field is having long, some sort of long-term proximity with people that inspire you. And for me going, I went to a school that was small, it was in England, but it was similar to kind of what you're describing where, you know, the teachers were, had really interesting experiences. Wanna, you know, a few of them, I just absolutely loved and they changed my life. And, but I also had a group of like hardcore friends and I don't mean hardcore in any, we weren't hardcore in any way. - What did they talk? - What did you say? - Were they, were they so? - They were hardcore gangsters. - And we used to, no, I'm not gonna go down that path. We, we're hardcore in terms of creativity and we were dedicated and we were pumped about it. And nothing has affected my career path like those relationships. And I think if you, I think if you're a person that is really struggling to get the ball moving, there's pretty, I don't know if there's another way other than some kind of extended period of proximity with people that sharp that are sharpening you. - Oh my God, I can't even imagine, like I'm glad you brought this up because it was something that I, I was like, if I were not where I am and I, not that I'm in like this awesome, great place back, I'm gonna, I feel good about where I am. - Your work is awesome. I love all the books. I wanted to just lay on the praise and just say that I think that your work is gorgeous. I love the colors. I love that it feels really, really new, but it's really classic. And I love that it feels really, one thing that I try to strike a balance in my own work that's, that I don't see often is like it often feels either hand drawn and kind of lo-fi or not yours, but stuff out there feels hand drawn and kind of lo-fi or super slick. And I feel like your work is like you, you can almost tell whether it's traditional or digital because it's really slick, but it's got the charm of hand drawn. And so anyway, I just want to lay on all of that, just to say, I think what you're doing is really awesome. And it's a big part of the reason I wanted to talk to you. So you are an awesome place before I cut you off. When you go back to that, I just wanted to fit all that in there. - Thank you, Andy. - You're welcome. - Oh, I love your work too. - Thanks. We could just-- - I heard me. - Have a big, you know, pat on the back party. The thing is is that I, I go out of my way to say those things because most people don't, but a lot of people are thinking really nice things all the time. - Thank you. - Are you the office? You ever watched that? - Oh, yeah, I love the office. - Okay, there's an episode where-- - Oh, British and Americans. - Oh man, yeah, I'm obsessed. And there's a part where Michael Scott says to somebody's like, now don't tell her I said this, but Pam is actually a really amazing person. I'm like, why don't you tell them that? And so I try to go out of my way to be like, I'm having all these really nice thoughts. I'm gonna share them. So anyway, that's me sharing. - I think it's passively, aggressively jerky when people don't share their nice thoughts. My husband Colin and I are like over complimenters. Like we're gushers. - Yeah, we do. - And my, one of my best friends, Mimi, is a super duper gusher too. And we talk about, we get really, we get elitist with our gushe-ness and like, how-- - People, like they don't give it up. - Honestly, it makes me so angry. Like tell me, say it. - Well like, I'm like, I get really annoyed when, I'll walk away and I don't even feel like they appreciated the gush. And then I have this like gross little petty thought in my head of like, it's not even, you know what, your work isn't even that great because you're not-- - That didn't mean a word of it. - Yeah, like yeah, you're not nice. So I take it back, but oh, okay, back to-- - Back to the proximity thing. - I feel like, I don't wanna take up too much of your time and I'm like, oh my God, I have a deadline. - Oh yeah, I'm so okay. Sorry, we're getting carried away. - I want you to have as much good stuff. I want you to be as good as I can. And this is really important to me. And this was on my list for last, for 26-- - No, it's it. - Yeah. (laughing) But yeah, like, I think it depends on like, okay, about going to school or being around awesome people, like if you wanna succeed, I think you have to know what you need to succeed. And I think that sounds so lame and cheesy and cliche, but it's like so important. And for me, I was the kind of kid who like, after a while, I was like over summer, I need structure. - Yeah, yeah. - And so I really needed to go to graphic design school. I was a total slob as a person. I mean, there was like piles of clothes everywhere. I just didn't have any kind of code. - Yeah, yeah. - I needed a code, even if it was from design. Like, design sort of gave me somewhat of a code for my actual life and that sounds really weird, but-- - No, I totally relate. - It kind of like gave me an identity. It gave me something to lean on and it gave me a reason to be neat because if, and I'm not neat. - Yeah, no, neither. And actually, I'm exactly the same as that because I, when I moved over there, I got my teachers were all into Swiss design and all that stuff. And I fell in love with it as a code, as a way of thinking differently and inspiring me to find the meaning and structure and find the meaning and being neat and all that. And I totally relate to that. - Yeah, so, but I think some people just are like, in another, you know, some people wouldn't have been a good fit for Hallmark. I just craved at the time of where I was. I craved like being around people. I thrived on it. I wanted to learn as much as I could from everyone. And I needed, I mean, I think from my background growing up, like I said, my family, there was a lot of love, but, you know, I also felt like weirdly isolated. So I think family situations, I'm always kind of craving like some kind of Trivie family thing. And, but now, I mean, quitting Hallmark, it was something I was really scared about. And I really tried hard to prepare myself for the transition because that's another thing is like, don't just give yourself everything that you need to be in that risky, scary situation so that you can like succeed. If you don't prepare and give yourself the right tools and you don't know what you need, you don't know what your like, you know, like your weaknesses are, or like, I knew that being alone would be something I would struggle with. And I would talk to my friends who were freelancing, like, how do you deal with it? How do you do time management? Like, just like asking so many questions because I really was like, I wanna do this. And part of it's pride too, because it was my decision. So I wanted to do a good job because it was all me creating the situation. And so it wasn't like, I mean, even if I had gotten let go 'cause they were laying a lot of people off and that was a very difficult thing at the time when I quit, one of my best friends got laid off and it was a really weird place. We were in the same situation, but had gotten there and definitely... - Definitely, I see it. - Yeah, and she's so talented and she's gonna be a famous writer one day. - Right. - You'll see. But so I feel like, you know, I just think it depends, everyone needs different things and it's really important to know who that you are. - Yes, and actually I think that, I think that obviously we're all benefiting from the Industrial Revolution and we can all hate on it in retrospect and it's kind of a double edged sword there in that way. But I do think that the whole assembly line mentality that I can't remember the words, but I almost said Harrison Ford. Henry Ford developed the idea of standardized parts for everything so that you could buy a carburetor and it'd be the same so that you could interchange everything. And I think that assembly line thinking, it absolutely affected everything in our culture and I think in the same way, we started seeing people as standardized parts and cogs and one size fits all and you can place this person in that situation and they should do exactly what the person before them did and it's just very interchangeable and I think it's what. - You're making me think of something. - What? - What? - You have to see this if you haven't seen it. - What, what is it? - I know you get off on like inspirational, like obviously you're like creative captain of guys. Have you ever seen that Ashton Kutcher speech for the kids' choice award? - No. - Oh my God. - You have to see it. - I feel like it's gonna make me feel terrible. - No. - Okay. - No. - Oh, I thought, I thought it was like-- - The reason why I'm saying, I'm bringing it up is because he talks about people in your life are gonna tell you that you have to like fit into the world. - Yes, yes. - And he's like, you don't have to fit, you build your own world and people can live in your world. - Totally. - You don't have to do, but the whole speech is amazing. I'll email it to you after. - Yeah, awesome. I love that. - I love that. - And I actually, this is my thing 'cause I grew up in a household where, so my mom was where I get the art jeans, but she wasn't around and both of my step mom and my dad are both really corporate people fit into these molds and the way that the society is built, they just fit really well into it. And I knew that I didn't and so I just thought, I'm just doomed. They're like, they're the places that exist, I know that it's gonna work out for me. And so I'm always railing against that thinking of, if you wanna go to art school, that's a big commitment. And if you're doing it because you think that's the way it has to be done, then you need to reassess that. But at the same time, it might be exactly what you need, but you really need to have the self-awareness and get the feedback and develop all of that to know what you need. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's all great. Just listening to yourself, like don't, I feel like we dismiss our gut feelings or like we just bear it, we grin and we bear it. And when I went to school initially, I hated it. It was the wrong school and it was the wrong time, but I kept going and I felt like I was a loser and I was a failure because I just hated it. The graphic design teacher was mean. I had, I took graphic design there, hated it, took it at a different school, felt completely in love with it. So I think that's another thing. Like, even if you are a person that does need to go to school, make sure it's the right school and don't be embarrassed. Don't, I mean, sometimes it takes hard work to be in the right place and find your spot. So I feel like if you're in a school that's just not the right fit, like just listen to that, or whatever you're doing, a job, anything, it's just-- - I do think we need to take more advantage of whatever we would call intuition or gut feeling. I think honestly that if you want to play both sides, I think that science would say that your subconscious is a complex web of connections that you don't always know in your conscious mind what you know, but you know a lot more. You're picking, and actually, in terms of like your radar and what you're picking up with even your senses, there are thousands of connections being made that aren't aware, that you're not aware of. - Totally. - And I think that just like you said, you had a gut feeling about homework, even though initially you weren't super excited about the idea, I found that a lot of times all I need is someone to give me permission to accept the way, the thing I already know the answer to. Like most of the time, I know the answer. I just want some outside source to affirm it, you know? - It's true, yep. - So, but yeah, so I think that's all good, but we better wrap up. We've been going for quite some time. Maybe we'll get you on the show again, sometime. This is a super fun conversation. I know it's right up the alley of the people that like the pep talk, so it's gonna be awesome. I'm super, super happy to have you on here, and it works great, so. - Thank you so much. It's like, oh, it's been great. I'm so excited to be on it. Thank you so much. (upbeat music) - We didn't want to forget talking about your book. And I've got 100 things to draw with the triangle. - Yes. - And I looked through it and I love it. I just like the way that it smells and feels. First of all, this is the type of book that I like to have in my hands. It's really beautiful. And then when you look through it, it's just really awesome, and I'm gonna go through it and do a bunch of these things with my daughter who's obsessed with this kind of thing. But you wanna just tell us a little bit about it? - Oh, yeah, I mean, it's with Quarry, and I had done my coloring books with them, and they asked me if I was interested, and I gotta tell you, at first, I was like, this sounds crazy hard. Like, it's really minimal. - Yes, yeah, yeah. - And nothing like the coloring books or anything I had ever done. And then the other part of it that I think was challenging is that it's kind of a half-finished thing. - Right, yes, yeah. - It's like, there's definitely an art to, like, prompting. And I really struggled with it initially, and Mary Ann and the editor, oh my God, her name is like alluding me. She was freaking amazing. They helped me get through it in the beginning. I took me a minute to get my stride, because I was basically doing too much work. - Yeah, yeah. - Finishing yourself. - I was just making, like, finished compositions. They were like, we could make, like, five pages out of this one page. - Yep. - So then, once I got that, I hit my stride, and it was, you know, I was on it. But Judas. - Judas. - The editor. - Judas. - It's just so cool. (laughs) So, yeah, but it's nothing like anything I've ever done, and there's a circle one about to come out to, and I really don't know, like, how people are taking it, if they know what to do with it, if it's gonna be, like, a slow burner type book, or, you know, but I almost feel like some of the pages I could, I'd love to, like, take and explore with, like, you know. - Yeah, good prompts just for stimulating, maybe different ways of thinking, and I think it's really cool, because I think it fits into the adult coloring book, kind of, world, but it's a really different take on it, and it could, I don't know, I think it could prompt you to do all kinds of interesting discoveries that you probably wouldn't make on your own as an artist. - Yeah, this is true. Like, I think it's for artists and doodlers, because I think you have these shapes in front of you, and it forces you to think differently, like, oh, that could be this. - Which, I'm a big fan of form, and I think that I love artists that use interesting forms and proportions, and that's why I think I love the artists from the '60s, because they were really big on that. And so, yeah, it just gets you to think differently, and draw something that you wouldn't, and then when you go back and draw your stuff without the book, I think it kind of leaves a residual effect, and you kind of are influenced by that. So, that's what, after a while, I was like, yeah, this is really cool, but yeah, some projects are right off the bat, like, this is great, and some projects are like, oh my God, I don't know if I can do this, and it sounds so ridiculous, 'cause it's just little innocent triangles on each page, but I wanted to make it interesting on each page, but not too interesting, and so finding that restraint was very challenging. - One of the things that I always try to do, I'm always trying to unearth what my, what I think my kind of purpose for making art is, and whenever I'm stuck, I try to figure out a way to relate something back to why I make art, what's exciting about it to me, and I think that you're right, like sometimes you get halfway through and you're like, I just don't know how this relates to what I do, or I don't know how to respond to it, but it's really interesting, 'cause I think there's a lot of ways you can even just, you know, adapt a project to make it work for you. But it's a beautiful book, I think it's really nice to hold, and looks lovely, go check it out, it's called 100 Things to Draw with a Triangle. - Thanks, Sandy. - I really like it. I'm sorry, every time I wanna say 1,000 for some reason, but I think as soon as I say it, I'm like, that sounds too many, that's too many triangles, and anyway, I love it. - Thank you. - Thank you, Sarah, for being on the podcast, it was great. - Thanks for having me, have a good day, Andy. - You too, I'm actually gonna go now. - Okay. - All right, see you. - Bye. (upbeat music) - So I wanna thank Sarah Walsh for coming on the show. She was so open and vulnerable for the audience, and that means a lot to me. It was, I had a blast chatting with her and getting to learn about kind of her path and hearing her perspective on creativity. So thank you, Sarah, you're awesome, your work is super fantastic, I'm really into it. Go check it out at sarahwalshmakesthings.com. Go check out our new book, 100 Things You Can Make with a Triangle, so much goodness. I'm super happy to have her on the show. (upbeat music) - Thank you guys for listening. It means so much to me to be able to do this podcast. It is honestly just such an awesome roller coaster. I hope this episode helps you find some clarity and strategy in your creative career. That's a hard thing to do, so I hope it helps a bit. Thank you to my man, Yoni Wolf and his band Y for our theme music that I just absolutely love. Thanks to our proud syndicate illustration age, those guys are fantastic. Thank you to the freemusicarchive.org and the band Assura or Assura for their song whispering through. Thanks for all the feedback and support and the sharing of the show, it means so much to me. I really think that creative success is about maintaining that desire and that hope that the work that you're doing is gonna pay off so that you can be disciplined and excited and keep going in the long run. So do whatever you gotta do to stay peped up. (upbeat music) Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you wanna check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you wanna test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. - I did consider Barney a friend and he's still a friend to this day. - The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know, I love who you love me. I call it the purple mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man. - Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)