Creative Pep Talk
076 - Being Vulnerable in Your Work with Timothy Goodman
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300 and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. - Like I'm interested in talking about human stories through the filter of my tools as a designer and art director. - Hey everybody, you're listening to the Creative PEP Talk podcast. This show is about commercial art, finding the balance between thriving financially and being creatively fulfilled, making money and making great art. I'm your host, Andy J. Miller. Illustration age is our proud syndicate. You can find this show at illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk. Also on SoundCloud and iTunes and wherever there are podcasts. - I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, and I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro, and that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Miro is a collaborative virtual workspace that syncs in real time for you and your team so that you can innovate an idea into an outcome seamlessly. We talk a lot on this show about the idea of how creative research shows that playing with the problem is essential to innovation. Now, when I think of play, I don't think of documents and email. So if your team is often working remote, you need something more dynamic and collaborative. I think that Miro's mind maps and flow charts where team members can edit and play in real time has a lot more capacity for innovation and playing with the problem than traditional ways of collaborating over the internet. Whether you work in innovation, product design, engineering, UX, agile, or IT, bring your teams to Miro's revolutionary innovation workspace and be faster from idea to outcome. Go to Miro.com to find out how that's M-I-R-O.com. (upbeat music) - Today on the show, man, we've got such a sweet interview with Timothy Goodman, designer, illustrator, art director, extraordinaire. This guy is truly fantastic. I love what he's doing. You know, I brought him on the show because I think in our industry, we all know how to play the instruments, but do we know how to write a beautiful song, a song that really truly connects with people, not just other designers, not just with people that, you know, just our pack, but how do we connect with real people? You know, when clients come to us, they're not necessarily interested in our ability to connect with other designers. They want us to help them take their product or their thing and connect it with real people. And actually, that's a craft that is really, really difficult. And I don't know if it's done that often truly in our field, but here's a guy, you know, I've watched him, his projects. He did a project with Jessica Walsh called The 40 Days of Dating. You've probably heard of it, where they cataloged their own dating experience with each other, and it's raw, and it's visceral, and it connects, and actually it went viral. It went mainstream. It was on all the mainstream outlets, like TV, it went everywhere, because it really resonated. And so I wanted to bring him on the show to talk about his new project, the 12 kinds of kindness that he's doing with Jessica Walsh, and just kind of deconstruct what has he learned about connecting with people, real people, through design. So we talk about senior work as a gift, connecting with other people, with your work. We talk a lot about being vulnerable, and knowing that you're gonna polarize people by being yourself in your work. And yeah, we get to all kinds of really fantastic things. I had a blast talking with him. I super appreciate him taking his time, especially while he's doing this project, to talk with me and try to chat about these different things. I think you're gonna get a lot from this. If you wanna go check out his work, you can go to teagoodman.com. Go check out Jessica Walsh and his new project, 12 kinds of kindness, it's fantastic. It's a project about, it's a 12-step program to be more kind. And they do some very, very vulnerable, interesting things on that project, like share some deep, dark secrets, and experiences, and new connections, and it's beautiful, and it's human, and it's fantastic. So thank you, Tim, for coming on the show. It means so much to me. I know everyone's gonna just get so much out of this. You're fantastic. Let's get to the interview. When you were a kid, did you have, was art a big deal to you? No, when I was a kid, music and sports and movies were a big deal to me. What was a moment from back then? Was there any particular song or band or experience, a movie that you saw that hit you on an emotional way that you remember still today? Well, it's interesting, back then, I really connected to troublemakers. But people that weren't, people that still did it with a smile on their face, people you still rooted for, or Ferris Bueller, or Zack Morris, and Saved by the Bell. These guys who kind of got over on authority, but did it with a smile, and you still kind of lighted up and rooted for them. And so I always liked people like that, those kind of characters. I always kind of, I don't know, I guess, fancied myself as someone like that. I think with music, I connected a lot, because I was always looking for some sort of rapper, rock star, who was rebellious, that was talking about those kinds of things, 'cause I connected to that, because I think I always, I had a lot of rage as a kid, you know. And I think we've talked briefly about this on email, but 'cause you said you grew up without your mom, right? Yeah, yeah. And I grew up without my father. And so I think there was always a bit of hindsight, I think about that, and how the people I end of the UA, or all these heavy metal bands, Tupac, or all these people when I was like, you know, I was a kid that I connected to so much to, and their stories. And because they were kind of, they had this attitude like, you know what, I came here from nothing, I don't have a dad either, the world, like I'm making my mark. Kid, I would really get connected to that, really get involved in that. And I still get like that with musicians specifically, I have to really, I have to really be invested into who they are as a person. Yeah. And their whole, whole make up, the whole story, the whole trajectory of their life, I get involved. So that becomes, that's what makes me like music. It's why I like Bob Dylan so much, it's why I like Kanye so much. Yeah. You know, there's these characters, and I love the whole trajectory of their path. That's really interesting because, you know, you're saying that really their music is a conduit to connect with them as a person. And that's, you know, I don't think everyone experiences are in that same way or for that same reason. But, so did you have a moment? Or actually, let's talk about, you said back then that you would connect with kind of the rebellious side of characters, is that, you said back then, so is that something that's changed for you? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess I still like it, but you know, I like to think that I've evolved a bit. Right. I'm a good one. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but I still, you know, I still get it. Yeah, I still, you know, but I don't really have that. I don't, I also, you know, when I think about like art school, and I think about really in my career, I felt very competitive. Yeah. And that also drove me, you know, like I would see what people were doing and it would make me wanna do better. It would make me wanna stop my game up. But I don't really, I haven't created, I don't feel like I've created in a long time because of that, whether it's full stuff or I don't really, sure I can be inspired by what my peers are doing. And I love the work that they're doing, but it doesn't drive me the same way. And I think before, and that's because I think I've, I've put that in the forefront. I realized that a while ago that that's why, and I didn't like that, didn't feel healthy. Was there ever a time when you were frustrated in your work? I don't know if there was ever a time when I was frustrated, but you have to know, though, also, too, because I didn't go to college right away after high school, and I was a horrible high school student who, I barely even graduated. I was smoking blunt every day. Like I had no ambition, no future plans, didn't listen to anyone, didn't wanna hear it. Yeah, my high school experience was pretty identical to that, I would say. Really? Yeah, totally. Yeah. It was like that, I know you sound like you can't tell me nothing, but you got it. And so I think because I had a hard reality after graduating high school and seeing all my friends go away and me be broken, and my mom, you know, pissed off at me about all my decisions and not being, and then being in debt, and like, you know, climbing my way out of that and painting homes for a couple of years after that. And, you know, really trying to face the music about what I was gonna do with my life. I think when you kind of, by the time I got out of that, and I was working full-time and going to community college and Cleveland full-time, and by the time I got my way to New York to go to SVA, by that time, I was like, this is, it was like now or never. It was like, it was my job. Yeah. I was gonna make it. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense because I, you know, it wasn't until the first couple, 'cause I went to college right after high school, and it wasn't until the first couple of years out where I was really struggling in real life that, you know, I really switched on, and actually I teach a class to undergrads at the art school locally, and it's one of the things that's a real challenge for me is the lack of experience that they have and their inability to really take this seriously or understand how difficult of a mountain that they're really on. Like, they just don't have, yeah, they don't have any sense of that. So I definitely, I understand like you're saying that by the time you were making work, you were already in that zone. You already knew. I didn't have that hurdle to go through. I knew I had already, you know, gone places with myself that I didn't want to go again. So I haven't struggled as a graphic designer in that sense because I've made all the moves I've made from going to college, for going to SBA, and after are always with those experiences in mind. So every decision I make, every move I make, whatever, I'm always thinking about all of it because I'm always thinking about how badly it sucked early on from being in when I was 18 to, I was about 22. So, you know, I don't know. So it's always something that I think about. It's always something that's with me. And I like that 'cause it humbles me too and it makes me think about, I mean, I still think like, and like, okay, you could be there in a second. I don't know. I feel like that was anything. I feel like maybe homeless in a day. - Yeah, yeah. - So now, I totally get that. I actually feel like, even though I don't like to be driven by fear, I feel like there's a humility that comes with that, that keeps me, you know, working hard and trying to be creative and try to stay ahead of, you know, I don't know, stay ahead of myself, really. And so, it's like, you know, and I think about like this idea of a job, you know, and it's like everything, I try to do everything in my will to not have a quote unquote job, you know? It's like this comment song where he says, I'm rapping for my life because I'm scared of the day job. Like, that's how I feel. Like, it's like, I wanna bend and twist and shake and squeeze the most out of my life and the most of my work without getting too caught up in the endgame or failures, I just wanna, you know, I just wanna make and just practice and approach this whole thing as like a practice, not as a profession, you know? - Yeah, totally. And I actually, my motivation to create the podcast, which is really about trying to share things that I've learned and other people have learned about being a commercial artist, someone who does this for a living is just knowing that I don't fit well into employment and I actually thrive doing my own thing and just trying to help other people do that. So I totally relate to that. - Yeah, when I say job two, I don't mean just like anyone who's like, I mean, there's probably plenty of people that have freelance, you know, and it can still bog you down. - Do you remember a moment early on in your life or one of the first moments of really connecting with another person through art? Like, one of your first memories of art really connecting to you in a human way? - I mean, I remember the first moment when I started working for myself. - Yeah. - And that was four years ago, just about this time, it was Valentine's Day, 2012. And I decided to do this project where I would draw every single one of my Twitter followers, a unique Valentine Day card. - Ah, that's crazy. - And I think I had about 1,150 at the time. And so I went from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. on Valentine's Day and tried to draw every single one a unique Valentine. And I think I did about, I was only able to do about 600 - Yeah. - That day, I've ever used the bathroom. (laughs) - That was fun, yeah. - But it was an amazing feat because here I am just, you know, really trying to do is something unique for everyone. So I'd go through their list, you know, go through my list of followers and look at the bio or the, you know, their name, their Twitter handle or their picture and really try to respond visually to that. So it was this great challenge. But what I didn't realize upon doing that was how many people would write me back. - Yeah. - Oh my God, thank you, you know, or you made me a card and people were making e-cards and sending them back. And all of a sudden I was connecting people and having a dialogue just through my work. And my work was like some sort of gift for them. - Yes. - And that was like a big light bulb that went on at that time. 'Cause I didn't really, you know, a lot of times we just do these things and maybe we subconsciously know what we're trying to get out of them. But sometimes you don't, you know, you just want to-- - Yeah, often like the purpose of something that we make is pretty abstract. - Yeah, I mean, sometimes you just wanna, you just have this urge, you just need to make something, you know, you come up with an idea and you say, "I'll draw every single Twitter follower." You know, it's a fun idea, you know? Like I'll be able to just, you know, it'll be a big challenge on how, how, what I can do visually. But then all of a sudden to have that kind of dialogue with people was, yeah, that was a big turning point for me in my mind. - And so I want more of that. I want more of that feeling and more of those connections. - I wanna talk to you about the Sharpie book as well. I take, I took a look through that and I love that book. It's really beautiful. - And finally enough, my old address is in the book because Eric Morinovich had sent me one of those envelopes and so I noticed that it was kinda weird. But I wanted to just quickly talk about, I think maybe the inception of your Sharpie obsession came from your work with the Ace Hotel. - Yeah. - Is that correct? - Yeah, that was definitely the point. - Yeah, and so did that, was that a, did you know when you were doing that work that there was something really special happening? - I knew there was something special happening, but I didn't, it wasn't the intent. - Yes, right. You were just, this is the way you chose to solve the brief. - Exactly. I mean, at that point I was like, I think I was probably about three years out of school. You know, I was just a traditional graphic designer. I never really drew. And I was just, you know, I got this opportunity to do this, these two walls in the Ace Hotel and it just seemed logical to me. Obviously, you know, it's a mural, so I got to draw it by hand. But I wanted, to me it was just about an idea, you know? And I'm always really, you know, I'm always an idea first person, but you know, the idea should dictate everything. So for me it was just like, "Oh, I'm gonna draw these 99 frames "about everything I love about New York "and that could be past of the common tourists." And I'm just, of course I'm gonna do that in this kind of, in this kind of, you know, quick and sketchy manner because that's what New York feels like to me, the energy, the imperfection of New York. So yeah, so I just did it. And then all of a sudden it kind of, you know, created a whole new world for me in a lot of ways. So all of a sudden then started getting asked and hired to do these things more and more. And then I was working at Apple when I was happening. And so, you know, it gave me the confidence to finally quit and work for myself and to try to juggle because obviously like I'm interested in a lot of things and I'm interested in still, you know, I'm doing more traditional design work in the sense of like, I don't always have to just draw to, you know, with my ideas. And so, you know, that's, I'm always rustling with that too. It's like, you know, like right now I'm doing a book jacket for instance, you know? And it's like, you know, well, I'll give them one, the one Sharpie thing and then I'll give them three other that have nothing to do with Sharpie. So. - And so how does that book come about? - So the book just came about. I mean, you know, in the last couple of years I've pretty much drawn on everything. So I've drawn on cars for Ford. I've drawn on, you know, people drawn on glass. I've drawn on walls. So I've drawn on not, not, not cool, but quotes on. - Yeah. - Yeah, so it just, you know, I gotta ask to do, I gotta ask if I was interested in an idea around this and then we kept talking. And then it really just kept blossoming into this idea of creating a whole world for Sharpie and all these kind of, you know, showcasing my own work and all the things I do with Sharpie, whether it's the commercial work, but also a lot of personal stuff I've done through the years, like giving, you know, making mini frames for friends and just, you know, how this can be a catalyst for so many things. So I wanted to showcase that and I wanted to really showcase, you know, amazing artists from all over the world who use Sharpie and their work. So, you know, it was a really great opportunity to kind of put it together. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I wanted to talk about the inception and the origin of the new project, but before I do that, and I've heard kind of you talk about you and Jessica talking about your relationship issues and kind of the origin and inception of 40 days, but what did that moment actually look like? When did you start, when did you start having that conversation of maybe we should do a project on this? - Yeah, I mean, it happened right away. There was a definitive moment. We were in, it was 6.30 in the morning at JFK Airport in New York City and she and I and a couple of friends were going to Art Basel Miami together. - Yeah. - And we, she was heartbroken because a guy she was dating for just about a month had broken up with her and she's always been, you know, she's this hopeless romantic jumping in quickly. - Yeah. - And I was kind of teasing her because of that and that's, I mean, our relationship had formed. We'd become close because, you know, we loved each other's work, but we also kind of always made fun of each other for our opposite problems. - Yeah. - I was kind of teasing her for, you know, you know, what do you in love with this guy? You've been dating him for a month, you know, she was really heartbroken and she was giving me crap because I was feeling kind of crummy about dating a couple of women at once and feeling like, what am I doing, what am I really this guy? Like, I gotta tell one of them, I gotta, I don't know, like, and I was like, I don't know. And she was giving me crap for that and that's when it started. And we had gotten on the airplane, by the time we landed in Miami, we had come up with the whole idea. - Right. And so-- - So that's what I like. - You, one of the things I talk a lot about is like, I think being good as an artist and coming up with good projects and really knowing what your work should be about has a lot to do with being observant. And what was it about being in that moment that you could notice that, hey, these contradictions are something interesting that we could dive into. How did you, had you trained yourself to notice stuff by then or how did it peak your interest? - I don't know, I mean, I just think that we have so much material in front of us, you know? - Totally, yeah, totally. - The goodness of all of us is such interesting material. - Is it a visceral thing? Is it an emotional thing? Like, you felt like you were feeling feelings so you knew that something or something here? Have you trained yourself to notice when you're feeling something? - I think, I don't know if I was doing it then, but I think since then, yes. - I think I'm very interested in how I feel. I think I'm very interested in what it means to feel, however I'm feeling. - Yes. - And to understand that it's like the weather, you know, I can't explain why sometimes, you know, outside of like exterior events happening that either make you sad or happy. Outside of that, and just every dayness of life, I can't explain, I don't think any of us can truly explain why one day I'd feel great and happy the next day I feel stressed and, you know, - Yeah, totally. - And so to understand that it comes and go like the weather and if I can just be present to that, you know, and just witness my life, however it's happening and not try to fight it off. - And I think one of the things I notice in work is like, I liken it to a stand up comic where they clearly train themselves to notice when something is funny or when there's the seed of a joke or something and there's like obviously emotional, visceral clues and they've trained themselves to notice 'cause we all go through, you know, we all experience things that are funny or sad or whatever, but rarely do artists have the capability to create from that place. And that's one of the things I've noticed from following you on Instagram and watching your work is that you often really can pick out these funny things or these kind of sad moments and it definitely takes like a trained eye. - Yeah, yeah, and that's in the last like year and a half when I started my different writing series on Instagram. You know, and that was kind of formed because of 40 days in the sense that if I hadn't done 40 days and when I don't think I would be open to my vulnerability as much and I don't think I would, and I also wouldn't have the audience to kind of, you know, share that in the same way. So I think it was just a natural progression, but you know, it's coming up with those things, you know, and writing, you know, it's like anything. It's like even with this podcast and what you will edit down. - Yeah. - It's like you get out a lot of stuff and you know, it's just like design name. I'm a design book jacket or something. It's like I might make a million and then I start to narrow it. I'll take pieces from that and take pieces from that and put it together. - Totally. - And that's the same thing. So it's the same with that. It's like, oh, that's something, there's something funny about, you know, you know, if I say, like, you know, I don't love you enough to show you my browser history. - Yeah. - Like, you know, you just start to, like, I don't know, you start to take pieces and like, well, what, how do I make it as clear as possible? How do I make it as immediate as possible? And I see it all as the same, whether it's writing or design or any of these kind of projects. - So you're taking notes on a regular basis, like in your everyday life? - Yeah, I'm always writing on my phone. Like I'm always-- - Yeah, right. - So I don't even know what it is. It's just like, I'm just writing, like, and it's like, could just be, you know, a phrase or a runoff sentence or something. Like, I don't know what that means or where it goes. But it's just-- - It's always capturing it. - And that's why I like, you know, I'm a big stand-up comedian fan. - Yeah, me too. And I think there's a lot of parallels between what we do and stand-up comedians. - I actually think the way, you know, people that are really excellent in our field really res-- Like, I think there's a big part of the design field that maybe doesn't relate. But I think the people that tend to be excellent are not unlike stand-up comedians and in their ability to really observe things, catalog things, see what's exciting about an idea. It's also just about taking references and taking cliches and then flipping them on their head. - Yes, yeah. - You know? And that's all it is. And the way you kind of recycle an idea into a new way that's fresh or funny or compelling or provocative. - And so with the new project, how did, what was the moment that that started to develop? - That kind of started to develop right after 40 days a couple years ago. - Yeah. - You know, Jessica and I had kind of gone through a lot in terms of, you know, creating that and not really knowing what would happen. And then because it went viral and became so kind of successful in that sense, dealing with that and also our relationship and repairing our friendship and trying to go through that, you know, as the world was kind of reading it, we didn't always treat each other well enough or support each other well enough through that process. And I think when it all was said and done and the dust settled and also when we were writing the 40 days book and having a chance to have some perspective on all of it, we really kind of were like, well, that was interesting. Like why, you know, and also how, you know, obviously like so many people loved it or maybe they didn't love it, but they still followed it or they hated to love it or loved to hate it. And also like seeing how many people, you know, becoming some sort of, you know, because they went mainstream and becoming like a public persona in some way and people bashing you and comment sections of Newsweek or something or then seeing people within the design community, not liking it or, you know, talking unfavourable to a lot of us all of a sudden was like, whoa, like this is-- - It's struck a nerve for sure. - This is weird and like, I don't know, like all of a sudden now I'm like, you know, I'm almost like a two-dimensional person. You know, it's crazy to see yourself being projected as-- - As a marketable, you know. - Yeah, but being projected, but it's weird to see yourself being projected as a two-dimensional character or as a lampoon when you know you're a real person with three-dimensional qualities full of good and bad things and you know, and so it can be difficult. So we had, it was through that whole process that we kind of kept coming back to one or two words and that was kindness and empathy and why do we lack it and why don't we have it enough and why do we have preconceived opinions about people and not others and all those kind of things. - So was the catalyst of kindness and empathy was the catalyst, the way that the aftermath of that project, like the way that it-- - Yeah. - Yeah, so, okay, so that's interesting. - And aftermath of not the creating of the project. - But the response of the residual effects of the project. - Right. - You know what I mean? - Yeah. - It kind of all came through that and then, you know, and the opposite of kindness and empathy to me is really not necessarily meanness but apathy and selfishness and so what would it mean to create some sort of, you know, the world's first 12-step program to cure selfishness and apathy? I mean, there's a 12-step program for literally everything. There's like 230 in the United States. - Was there a moment where you guys came up with that idea? - I wouldn't say there was like a definitive moment. It was a, at first it started with like, what if we did stuff about helping people? - Yeah. - And then it, and there was no 12-step thing yet but the whole thing was about kindness and empathy and how we could learn to become better and kinder and more empathetic people, how we could absorb our own selfishness. Not to say that we were going to change just to kind of like work on that, you know, to work on that problem. And so it kept evolving through us kind of brainstorming, going back and forth, coming up with like, and then it started, and then we started to have like different projects within it and then that's when it started like, oh, like this could be like a 12-step thing, you know, like, and taking, you know, idioms and popular phrases, like don't walk them out on my shoes or so on and so forth. And literally applying them to our lives. - Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new journey of the true fan series exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk or antijpizza.substack.com. And I hope to see you at this month's meetup. - It's holiday shopping time, y'all. It's time to freak out. - Not. - Because "Uncommon Goods" is here to make it easy. Listen, all I did was click the "For Her" section on this site and I instantly saw five things that I could get, Sophie, don't tell her, but I'm thinking either the National Park sweaters, the tea advent calendar. There's also just below that little bubble tea kit for my oldest. And then I saw one of these, you know, the retro little viewfinder orange real viewer things, but you can make it your own photos. Okay, it might not make sense. Just you have to go check it out yourself. Here's the thing. I have seriously never seen so many good options for gifts online in one place and unlike lots of other convenient options, shopping uncommon goods actually support small businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary. (upbeat music) - I've been looking for a new book to read and I started reading Design as Art by Bruno Manari. You ever read that? - No. - All right. I don't know if I'm gonna read it. I don't know if it's really hitting me right, but there's an interesting quote. And this is made in 1966 and he says, "The designer is therefore the artist of today, "not because he is a genius, "but because he works in such a way "as to re-establish contact between art and the public." And I found it to be really interesting because I think that was 1966. And when I first read that, I thought that's brilliant because I have a really disconnect to the contemporary art scene in that I don't know that it really connects with the general public. And at the same time, I look at people like you and other people in the design world and illustration world and think some of these people really are connecting with regular people and I thought, man, that's such a great phrase. But then beyond that, with design feeling so insular, I almost, I strive to find a different terminology. And I don't think we're gonna come up with anything great here. But I, you know, the project that you and Jessica Walsh have done, that the 40 days of dating in the new 12 Steps of Kindness, it's almost like it doesn't fit in a category because it's writing, it's poetry, it's art, it's video, but it's, you know, it's like the art as a project, as like a social experiment. And I feel like you're hitting on something that is striking people in a way where you're really connecting to people with art. And yeah, I'm just interested to see how that thing develops because I think you're hitting on something really new and fascinating. - Yeah, it's been interesting for us too because we do feel like we are creating something that hasn't quite existed in terms of, 'cause it's a lot of things, you know? It's obviously, it's a blog. Yeah, it's, but the mixed media component makes it something else. Obviously there's the actual, there's the actions of what we're doing. We're not just writing. We're actually participating in a great upon experiment that we've created that we have to go through. So it becomes a social experiment turned into a blog, turned into some sort of, I don't know, it kind of, I think kind of fits out as some sort of web online web reality in some sense. Which is interesting too because I don't know if anything like that quite exists in the same way. So it's been interesting for us as well because we don't quite know, you know, when you're making something, you have references and points of reference to kind of say, oh, well, that worked that way and that didn't work that way. And so for this, it's kind of like, we're a little bit in the dark what we're creating. We just have each other to kind of trust. And obviously, you know, making 40 days and the success of that gave us a point of reference and it was also a conversation whether we'd wanna create something similar again in terms of, I mean, in terms of the form. But it was important for us to do it in a similar way. Obviously, I think this is much more, this is presented in a much, outside of the topic, the form is presented in a much more mature level than 40 days was. - There's something really valuable to like finding a new lane. You know, I think there's a lot of people that can get stuck in the romantic side of the history of art and design and illustration and wanna take part in that and repeat things that were done. But there's actually, you know, all this value in being present in the moment that we're in right now. And, you know, I've found that the podcast for me, you know, it's obviously a more established medium than what you guys are working in because, you know, what you're doing doesn't even really have a name. But I found podcast thing is so young that the momentum of this podcast has been like a snowball down a hill, whereas, you know, when I go into the kids' book realm or these more established things, it's really like rolling up a boulder up a hill and you get that bottleneck situation 'cause everybody's racing to do those things. And so, yeah, I've definitely found value in kind of experimenting and trying new things. And I think you guys have, yeah, definitely explored and stumbled upon some really interesting things there. - Yeah, and I think it's, we did stumble on it, you know? I don't think it was, in some way it was intentional, of course, to make it public and to put it out. - Yeah. - We just wanted to do these things first. 'Cause we had a question about, you know, a fundamental question, why? Why are we like this? You know, why am I like this in a relationship? Why am I so selfish? Why am I, you know, and so what can we do? How to use our lives as a catalyst to, you know, get to skid somewhere with those questions. - Are you a different person before you started 40 days and then after all of it, you know, erupted and ran its course? - Yeah, for sure. - And what would the, what's the difference between that old you and the new you? - Well, I would just say that like, I'm just much more in tune with my vulnerability and I'm much more interested in that and I'm much more interested in showcasing and just on a personal level. I'm just more interested in that. I'm much more interested in what it means to be human and to see myself in these moments, you know? - Go ahead, yep. - No, I just, you know, and I'm also, I also think that I'm not afraid to say that I'm a recovering sexist term feminist. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm, I think, you know, I think that we're not always keen to our behavior, that project and what happened afterward, open my eyes up to a lot of things. - Yeah. - And seeing yourself, when you know you have good intentions yet you don't, you're not putting your best foot forward or you're not projecting yourself in the right way. Not that you, I don't think, not that you should always worry about. - How you're being projected or perceived. - Yeah, but I think that it is, you know, when you start to see yourself in different views like that, it gives you a lot of perspective. - So using your art or design or whatever you want to call it as a microscope on yourself was a, a pretty, seems like it was an intense kind of experience and you seem to have pushed that even further with the next project. What did you get from being vulnerable and putting yourself under that microscope publicly? - Well, I think what you get is like, you know, like all, we want to use resolutions as an example, right? Like all resolutions, how often do you keep them? You know, so many of us don't scrap them in a couple of weeks. - Yeah. - But by holding, by creating parameters and also documenting it in a way to put it public, you're in a lot of ways it's an act to hold you accountable, to follow through with it. - Yeah. - Otherwise it would be all too easy just to be like, you know what, I'm not gonna be my dad. Maybe I'll do it at another time and just putting it aside or whatever or, you know, it's a nice idea to like, you know, think about this selfishness stuff and whatever, but you know, I'll do it at another time or something. - Yeah. - So it's like a, you know, like just like a 12 step program, the 40 day that dating was also a vehicle to really tangibly go through some issues. It wasn't something abstract, like just randomly dating. It was something that, yeah, made you, got you to examine it on a more specific basis and had different accountability and the new project was the same. - Yeah, some of the, you know, a lot of these things we did in this project were some of the most profound experiences of my life so far. So it's like, and I don't, I went to have done it had we not created these parameters. You know, obviously people question our motives for these things and that's human. We've questioned our own motives as well, you know, but one of the goals with this project of putting it public though is to inspire others to see, you know, to see that in their own lives as well. - Yes. And actually I found there to be this thing where, and I haven't found good words for it yet, but it seems like you either have a worldview that's win-win or it's lose-lose. And it's like, for me, it's like, I can see all the value that comes from this for you, as well as for your career, but then also for you personally, and then also for other people personally. And I don't understand why that being mutually beneficial has to be exclusive. It's actually, for me, it's just like, yeah. So, yeah, that totally-- - I think all you have to do is go to the comment section on 12 kinds of kindness on Jessica's step four and Jessica's step five. Go to the comment section. I think that's all you need to know. - And I saw that and it actually blew me away. And I thought, you know, it's so-- - Coming forward saying, I, too, is sexually abused, or I, too, suffer from mental illness. And I'm going through this, and thank you so much for sharing this. And, you know, and, you know, feeling like they have an outlet, you know, to talk to. Because, I mean, that's what it's all about, man. - And actually, one of the quotes that Jessica says in one of those steps is about the power in speaking a secret, and that it loses its power when you do that. And I wondered if being so vulnerable through 40 days and through this project, if that has brought about a new confidence personally, but also professionally, just in that, when people are affirming you for these things, you know they're affirming the real you. And then, also, people are rejecting the real you when they reject you. But at least you kind of know where you stand. Which is really interesting, 'cause I think so many people creatively are creating out of a lot of different motives that maybe aren't as honest. And so that's really interesting. The thing that's really powerful about it is, and what I really am compelled by and inspired by through your career is your ability to, you know, that your work went mainstream and connected outside of the design world. And I think one of the things that really was on my mind through all of that is that often, I think when a company comes to someone who's an established artist, and they see their following and they see that they have worked with a plethora of good clients and all that stuff, that they're often like assuming that here's a person that connects with people. Like people, you know, their work resonates with people. But often it seems like people are entrenched in the industry and a lot of the work is resonating with designers, but they don't actually have a following outside of designers. But so that's a really interesting thing to me is that I think, you know, I don't know, but it seems like from what you were saying that there was places in the design world that maybe don't love what you're doing or turn their nose up to it or something. - Which, you know, it hurts. It's hard to accept that because you want to always be supported and welcomed by your own community first. So that's an interesting thing. And obviously I'm not saying that I'm wholeheartedly not, you know, I'm just saying, you know, I think what becomes difficult is when peers, you know, people of your own generation and your similar, similar come up and success and all those kind of things. When they reject what you do, that's when you're like, it creates an interesting dynamic within yourself to kind of think about it. - Oh, it's really bizarre because I find that, you know, on Instagram or whatever as a good metric. Like, I only really care if the people that I think make great work like my stuff. Like that's when something, that's when at least in the past, that's where I was like, that's what I'm kind of shooting for. You're like, yeah, the people that I think are awesome think my work's good. And there's something about that that's really natural. On the other side of it, like, I put off doing this podcast for a long time, even though I kind of knew that I had to do it, that it was, you know, one of the more authentic things that I could do. And it's definitely been the most successful thing that I've done and-- - And do you think you put it off because you were nervous about what people would think? - I knew, yeah, I kind of knew that I would be going into a territory that would be polarizing. And I know it is, I know there are people that, that I respect and really like what they do, that they see what I'm doing and think that, you know, have a lot of opinions on it that aren't good. But I almost feel like that breakout moment is where you go from kind of average to doing something at least interesting. And that's a thing that I saw 40 days. I think the first time I saw it, I thought I was taking it back and just like, man, what is that, like what is going on? And I, and just kind of like surprised and didn't know how I felt about it. And then the, as you were like releasing the videos and the more I thought about it, the more I thought, well, you've now separated yourself from the pack in a really interesting way that took a lot of courage. - Yeah, yeah, I mean it's polarizing. - It is. - And, you know. - But actually what they always say is like, if everybody likes what you do, that's not actually fantastic. The analogy I always give is like, you know, if you had gluten free, dairy free, buttered spaghetti, like everybody could eat that as a meal, but nobody would be thrilled about it. Nobody would be like telling their friends about it, you know? But if you serve something interesting, you're gonna get a lot of people that really, really hate it. - Yeah. - But then you're also gonna have people that are obsessed with it. And I think unless you're doing that kind of work, you're really just, you know, creating white noise. And there's not really that much of a point to it. Was that a hard experience? And, you know, do you think you're through the other side of that? - Oh yeah, I'm definitely through the other side of that. - Yes. - It was hard at times. I wouldn't say, you know, it didn't, I don't know if it like rocked me, but I think it's a hard thing, it's a hard pill to swallow when you, you know, people that you respect, people you know in the industry, when they reject something you're doing. Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, Bob Dylan and whatever, 1965, when he stopped playing acoustic and went electric. - Yeah. - You know, all his, a lot of his friends and peers and heroes in the folk world rejected him. - Yeah. - Did you have a sense before you guys launched that first project that it was gonna be polarizing? - In a sense, yeah, I mean, we definitely thought, you know, not everyone's gonna love this. - Yeah. - You know, it's easy to just, it's easy to chalk it up as some cheesy dating thing. It was also, you know, it's also interesting to hear how many people have told me, well, you know, I saw the name and I, you know, I read the thing and I was like rolling my eyes, but then as I started reading and reading and reading, you know, how much I got invested because of how raw we were about the, you know, about what we were talking about. So I also wonder how many people who hated on it actually read it. - Do you think, yeah, and actually, you know, the first, again, first wind I got of it, I definitely was like, what is this? And then I, as soon as I engage with it, I was like, this is a really human thing that is, it's just a level of interesting that you don't see in our field very often. - I think it's an interesting point, you know, it's a point that I think about a lot. It's a point I talk to friends about a lot. This idea that like, obviously, you know, in the design community, which, you know, we all have careers because of and we hire each other. And, you know, and we make money from each other and we get, you know, pats on the back from each other, which is all I think, you know, I think there's value in all of that and you need, I mean, obviously a lot of us, you know, all the commercial work I do is because people and agencies who are designers or art directors are, you know, they hire me. So it's a beautiful thing. The thing that gets interesting to me is the writing about design, the talking about design all the time, two designers, where I think that we are, as designers and art directors and illustrators, we are, we have so much to offer. We're interesting people. I think we're smart people and we have tools that are very unique and why don't we talk about other things in the, you know, with the parameters of design and illustration in our direction. You know what I mean? So that's what me and Jessica are trying to do with a lot of these different kinds of projects. That's why, you know, I started my writing series last year as well. It's like, I'm interested in talking about human stories through the filter of my tools as a designer and art director. I'm not interested in talking about design through the filter of design. I'm interested in, man, you know, I want to talk about what I'm up by, I want to talk about how crazy I am or what's going on in my life or how we all connect and how all these stories are universal. So that's what I'm interested in. Definitely. That's not to say that, I mean, listen, people, you know, like, I think it's very important to have in industry, you know, have an industry that is talking about design and I'm not putting down anything when it comes to that stuff, but yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing is that, like I said, you know, I have a podcast where I've spoke 70 plus hours about design and illustration and commercial art. So I'm definitely not dissing anybody, but I do think it's actually a much more difficult achievement to really comment on life. But at the same time, as artists, that's really supposed to be our value, I think, is to be able to connect to regular people. And so anyway, I've just really appreciated that. And we're supposed to connect to regular people. We're supposed to, I don't know if that's true though. I think a lot of people would argue that. I think a lot of people would say as designers, you are supposed to, you know, you're supposed to tell a client's story to humans. Right. Not your story and you're not supposed to, you know, sure, you should make something should feel, should, you know, if you're creating a user face or, you know, an interface, then there should be some, some quality that feels intuitive or something. And one could argue that's human. Or if you're creating a logo, people need to, you know, it's gotta represent something that people want to engage with or something or an identity system or something. I think, but I don't think, I think a lot of designers disagreeing so that we're supposed to be doing more than that. - Oh man, thank you so much, Tim, Timothy, Tim, Tim. Timothy Goodman, for being on the show. Couldn't appreciate it more. You brought the goods, you have brought so much insight into the show and I really appreciate it. I'm sure it's gonna be a big favorite. Thank you all so much for listening. I hope this episode helps you find clarity and strategy for your creative career. Thanks to Yoni Wolf and the band Y for our theme music. Thanks to our proud syndicate illustration age. Thank you to the free music archive and the band Aninan for their song, "Cosmich Slop." Thanks for the iTunes reviews and the new Patreon backers. I see you and I'm very, very grateful to your help. Thanks for listening. Remember, creative success is all about staying motivated and dedicated so do whatever you've got to do to stay peped up. I'm out of here, thanks. - Did you have such a radio voice? - Yeah. - It's very, it's a... - It's funny, man. Like, that's such a weird thing. It's something that I'm actually told often and I never thought of that before I did the podcast. I never, I never really consider it. So it's a weird... - Since you're calling that. - It's really weird, but it's also kind of like telling someone they have like a nice nose because it's like, it's totally out of my control. So it's like, okay, I guess, you know. Thanks, thanks to the... - Listen, you had a nice voice. I just said you had a radio. - Okay. - Don't go too far. - Okay, right, all right. I don't think you're too far. - I did consider Barney a friend and he's still a friend to this day. - The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. You know, I love who you love me. I call it the purple mantra. - Barney taught me how to be a man. - Generation Barney, a podcast about the media that we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)