Creative Pep Talk
050 - ___SPECIAL___ What We Wish We Knew
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work, or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300, and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Hey everybody, it's the creative pep talk podcast. With me, Andy J. Miller, your host. I am a graphic illustrator, and I make pictures for a living. So, it's episode 50. I am stoked out of my mind about this episode. I am so pumped that I made it to episode 50, and there has been so much growth in every area of the podcast since episode one. I'm really kind of looking at one through 50 as the beta, and I guess this episode as the official launch of the podcast. This is something I'm having a hard time imagining life without doing this podcast. It's become such a big part of my thinking about creative work and processing, and I love doing it, and I feel like I've learned so much that I wanted to launch it in a new way, and just raise the stakes, raise the game, make it just that much better, and so that's what this is. This is the big celebratory episode. As you may have noticed, the theme music change at the beginning. That song's actually called January 20-something. It's by one of my all-time favorite bands, Y. The lead singer, Yoni Wolf, actually has become somewhat of a friend of mine. I'm very thankful to get to collaborate with him on different art projects, different posters and t-shirts and stuff for his band. That's been a dream come true. Even bigger dream come true is him being so kind to let me use their music as theme songs for the intro and the outro. I don't know if that's a thing. At the end of the podcast, so you're gonna hear that too. I am so thrilled. I could cry about it. I love that song. I love the way that it sounds as an opening. Yeah, go check them out. They're called Y, W-H-Y with a question mark. I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, and I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro. And that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself. And when you're ready to launch your site, use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new Journey of the True Fan series, exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk or antijpizza.substack.com. And I hope to see you at this month's meetup. You can find this podcast at illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk. The illustration age is the proud syndicate of the podcast. We love those guys, they're fantastic. They also have a new Instagram page. You should go check that out. So today, what we're getting down to. Today, we are talking about what we wish we knew five years ago. This episode features 10 of my favorite people in the creative industry, 10 of my favorite people, period. I love these guys and gals. (laughs) And I could not be more thrilled about sharing this. This is a super special episode. I asked 10 of my internet buddies, some real-life friends to give us tips that they wish they'd known five years ago, things that they wish they had known and could have saved them headaches and pain and time. That way, you can use these tips and save all the headaches, time and pain. These guys knocked it out of the park. You know, if the creative pep talk was my job, I would be worried about my job security because they totally knocked it out of the park. They hit a home run. I'm so excited and honored to have these people on the podcast and share them with you. So without further ado, let's do this, let's get to the clips. And at the end of the episode, after we get through all these, I'm gonna give you what I wish I would have known five years ago. So that can be the grand finale. See, guys, you didn't know that I was gonna set you guys up as the opening act of my big finale. No, I'm standing on the shoulders of these giants, these awesome creative professionals. Let's get started, first off, we've got Mikey Burton, Designy Illustrator, Mikey Burton. His work is fantastic. Go check it out. It's really steeped in graphic design, but it's really illustrative. He does a lot of illustration products, projects, sorry. Mikey is the nicest guy. I haven't met him in person, but we've talked on the phone and talked a lot over the years on the internet. He is a gentleman and a scholar. He is like the real deal, awesome stuff from this guy. If you don't know him, now that you're aware of him, you're gonna see him all over the place. His work is fantastic. Let's hear what he wished he would have known five years ago. Hey, this is Designy Illustrator, Mikey Burton. Hi, Andy, how's it going, man? I love your podcast. If I was to give your listeners one piece of advice, it'd simply be to be patient. A lot of times, you can have the talent level you need. You can have the perfect portfolio. You can be using social media and different things to promote yourself exactly the way you should be. But for whatever reason, the stars just haven't aligned yet. And that can be hard and it can be frustrating when you're creative and you're not getting to do exactly the creative work you wanna be doing. I think it just takes time. You get the weight it out. Like, sometimes I think we don't wanna wait. We want things immediately. We're in a society now where we have these computers in our pockets and we want everything immediately. If we send an email out into the world, we want somebody to respond within a minute. And if they don't, we think the worst and we can't get past that. I think when I was in college, one of my professors told me that it takes eight years to be an illustrator. And I looked at him and I thought, "Yeah, right. I'll cut that time in half." And then I did the math and it took about eight years to get where I wanted to be, to be doing the work I wanna be doing and to be working with the clients I wanted to be working with. And that's a long time to wait. But I think it's just something you have to remember. It's gonna take some time. If this is really what your passion is, I hate to use that word, but this is what your passion is, this is what you really wanna do, is if this is the work you like doing, you know, just give it some time, you know, commit. Commit to it, work really hard and, you know, just wait it out. You know, don't just like wait in a vacuum and not do anything or, you know, you know, keep promoting yourself, but you know, don't give up on it so quickly, you know, really pursue it and see where it goes. And that's about it. Be patient. Thank you. Whoa, that is golden. That, I wish someone would have told me that when I first started. Actually, they probably did. I think one of my teachers taught me to chill out, but I, you know, I'm always trying to pass that onto my students like this obsession with everything happening instantly is actually hurting what you're doing. And it's not gonna make anything go faster or better. I totally agree with that. That is really good stuff. Thanks, Mikey. You know, I think that patience is super important. And the other side of it to me is that, you know, I feel like those early days of really struggling, actually, I get a lot of my fulfillment and satisfaction in what I'm doing now, in light of the struggles and the fact that it didn't happen instantly. You know, I feel like I would be much more entitled, had everything just worked out instantly. So thanks, Mikey. That was super awesome. I really mean that that's, that was awesome. Thank you, man. Okay, next up we have Kate Bingham and Bert. She is a legend. She's one of my favorite people. I met her last year for the first time, but we've been talking on the internet for probably seven years. Early on, when I first graduated, I sent her an email and she gave me tons of awesome tips and feedback that meant a lot to me. So thank you, Kate. I love Kate because she brings positivity and energy to the commercial art industry, which can be negative and cynical. And I love that she brings that. I love not only her work, which has so much personality and she's put so much of herself into her work. I love that, but I love her ideas about graphic design and illustration. I love her ideas about self-generated projects. You should definitely go check out her website and her creative mornings talk on self-generated projects. She has so many awesome ideas on this topic. One of the things that really struck me about her work early on was she does the self-generated projects, one of them being obsessive consumption where she would draw everything that she bought or something she bought every day. She also did a project where she illustrated every one of her credit card statements until the whole debt was paid off, which is exactly what it sounded like. And what I was like blown away by was her ability to inject herself and a almost fine art concept into the world of graphic design and illustration. And that just has always made a big impact on me. I love these tips that she brings. I probably need to do a better job at this myself. So without any more stalling, here it is, Kate Bingham and Burt. My name's Kate Bingham and Burt, and I am an illustrator and an associate professor of graphic design at Portland State University. And this bit of advice or tip is something that people did tell me over and over again, and I didn't really pay that much attention, but I kind of wish that I actually had paid attention, is that it's okay to not say yes to everything. You don't have to do it all. Just do the stuff that you do thoughtfully and with good intention and execute it really well. So that's my one tip. I think I have about 25,000 more, but that's the one that pops up this morning. So thank you. Okay, that's awesome. Thank you, Kate, so much for taking a minute out to contribute to this episode. It means a ton to me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the awesome wisdom. Next up, we've got Daniel Fischl. He is a illustration mastermind. He has so many good thoughts and ideas about the industry. He's someone who is really involved in the industry online and in real life. I got to meet him last year at Icon Conference. He is a super nice guy, is very gracious in his giving of information online and helping people out. And I picked Daniel because not only is this work awesome, but like me, I know that he had some struggles early on. He wants this, he's passionate about it. And he's worked hard to create a fantastic career in illustration. And so I knew that he had tons to offer. And what you're gonna hear is him share some personal stories, which I couldn't appreciate more. These stories are legit and I think you're gonna get a lot from this. Thank you, Daniel. Go check his workout and here's his clip. Hello, podcast listeners. My name is Daniel Fischl and I'm an illustrator and hand-letter based out of New York City. Andy asked me if I could pass along some advice, not only to my former younger self, but also to you, the podcast listener, whoa, that actually be. And that advice would simply be to have more patience and equanimity when it comes to your illustration practice. Now, what does that mean? So a couple of stories. When I was about to graduate from undergrad, I had a small string of successes, but then a big thing that set everything perspective. So before I graduated from undergrad, I got into society of illustrator's student show. I got into American illustration. I got into three by three magazine. And what happened was I had a little bit of an ego boost. I was like, man, I'm gonna get all the jobs. I'm just gonna send out one postcard and bam, it's all gonna happen. So I sent out a postcard after I graduated from undergrad and I got no jobs. And then I sent out a second postcard and no jobs. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna send out another postcard. And then this is like six months later and I got my first two or three jobs. Not sequentially, but shortly after. And I'm like, man, like this kind of blows. It took this long to get my first work. But the thing is is that it would take about two years before I would actually get steady work every single month doing primarily editorial illustration work. And that was a big setback mentally. Another thing too, is that, you know, I had a lot of luck when I was about to graduate from undergrad and I got into all these competitions. But the fun thing is, is that after I got into all of those, I would not get into a single competition that I would enter for six or seven years. And so that was another thing too, that every year I would enter some of these competitions and I would get the rejection email and I would be like, man, like, I really thought this year would be the year and that kind of really hits you. And the thing is, is that I would also see a lot of people, you know, over the years, even after I would get steady illustration work. And I would see people who were not only younger than me, but also of my own age who not only were doing illustrations for magazines and newspapers that I really admired and I really wish I could work for those book publishers or on a, that advertising job or what have you, but also I would feel a little bit of jealousy. And that's not something that is really healthy, has an illustrator as well. And it actually affected some of my friendships along the way and I had to learn to snap the hell out of it or it would just be really bad along the way. So what I found is that if I had patients and I was pretty chill about, you know, just kind of focusing on my work, on my craft, on my storytelling and continue to do that, eventually I would be nominated for awards or I would be getting the editorial jobs, I would be getting the book publisher jobs, I would be getting all these things, I just needed to continue to work, continue to put myself out there, continue to just be as good of a person as I can be and to be patient that eventually these assignments will happen as long as I have patients and equanimity along the way. - Awesome, thank you Daniel. Thanks for sharing personal information, personal experience that I know that all the listeners of the Creative PEP Talk podcast will get a ton from that. Thanks for being involved, man. Next up, we've got Invisible Creature. This is Don Clark from Invisible Creature. He is a big advocate of the Creative PEP Talk podcast, which I can be more thrilled about every time he tweets the podcast, I get a big influx of listeners and increase. Thanks Don for that. Thank you so much, man, for supporting this. You are, I don't know, it's just been really, really encouraging to have someone who I respect so much, encourage me so much on the podcast early on. It's definitely been a big part of why I've continued to do this and stay excited about this. So thanks, man, I couldn't appreciate that more. Now, if you think that you're a pretty good illustrator or designer, don't go look at Invisible Creatures work. Don't go look at their website because it'll make you wanna give up the high quality and attention to detail and obsession with bringing amazing work to every single project is overwhelming to me. I don't even know how they accomplish what they do. Really, though, you should go check it out just so you can be humbled by Invisible Creatures Awesome work. I've kind of been aware of their work for a long time, I'm sure, but I've become more aware of it since I've been doing the podcast and Don reached out and was really enthusiastic and encouraging. And since then, I've watched what they've been doing and I'm just super blown away by it. So I really appreciate him taking some time out to give you some tips. He's gonna bring you some practical information that is much needed here on the podcast. These things are things that I've had to learn the hard way and I hope that you don't have to learn the hard way by listening to Don. Here he is. - Hey, this is Don Clark from Invisible Creature. Thanks for having me on the show, Andy. So the question was something that I wish I would have known five or 10 years ago and knowing kind of your audience for the podcast, that being commercial graphic designers, illustrators, freelancers, and kind of people that are doing it on their own, I thought I'd get fairly practical and talk about something that's probably not super fun to most of us, especially I know for myself. This is the kind of stuff that I dread. But contracts, we got our start in the music industry 15, 16 years ago and we didn't do contracts for years. I mean, we signed a lot of contracts, but we didn't have our own. So that was kind of a big deal. Once we started doing that, I'd say that's probably 10 years ago now that we started doing that. And it's real simple. We just have actually just a two-page contract that just talks about what the project is, the scope. We go into rounds of revisions, how many concepts we're gonna present at the beginning, what the deliverables are, and kind of some legalese on the second page, it kind of goes into not holding us accountable if something in the marketplace looks like something we just provided to you, that kind of stuff. But I'd say the biggest part of the contract that probably would have helped me years ago is usage. And I know you've talked a little bit about this on the podcast, Andy, but usage has been a good friend to us. And that basically allows you to feel okay about where your designs are going and for how long. And if a company or a client wants to use something that you're creating specifically for one thing, an event or a certain product, and they want to use that in other ways, usage is kind of where all that stuff comes in handy and it's a really important thing. And obviously the price goes up and that's a way that you can kind of negotiate a lot of different aspects of the job. - I remember we created a t-shirt for a record label. And we noticed a few months later that they were actually using that art as their new logo. And in music, back then it was, it was just understood that when you created art for an album, it's full ownership. They could do whatever they want with it. There was never really kind of a way to change that. I think now that we're more savvy, we can definitely talk about that stuff. But back when we were starting, that wasn't really even an option. In a lot of larger companies, they don't want to even think about having to ask a subcontractor or designer for further usage rights. So they'll want to just buy it outright, which is fine too. All in all, usage just protects you and allows you to know where your work is going and be fairly compensated for it. So I'd say the contract and specifically usage is something I wish I would have known about a long time ago. I don't know if we had the clout back in the early days to even drop usage into some of our music contracts, but it sure has helped us since then. So that is kind of what I'm leaving you with. Thanks again. - Aw, the holidays are here. You gotta find a unique gift for Uncle Derek and your sister, Katherine, and her kids, Jetson, and Jeddon, Jerfery, and Jacob, and another two J kids. There's so much thinking, so much searching. Plus there's the ethical thing. You gotta shop small, it just, it's a lot. But it doesn't have to be. Uncommon goods makes all of this simple and straightforward for real. The site is chock full of unique and interesting gifts that also support small businesses. My fam loves advent calendars. I think Sophie would like to stitch a day advent calendar and 12 days of hot sauce is definitely shouting my name. Sorry, that wasn't me. That was the 12 days of hot sauce calendar shouting. Seriously, we had tons of fun browsing the site for ourselves and kids and family to get 15% off your next gift. Go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon goods, we're all out of the ordinary. All right, thank you, Don. That means so much to me. Thank you so much, that's great information. Please keep listening to the podcast. I really, really appreciate it. I appreciate all the encouragement you've given me. Thank you so much, man. Next, we've got Rilla. Now, Rilla has become a good friend of mine. We met last year at Icon Conference. She is an Australian illustrator designer. She now lives in Portland. She spent some time in Berlin. Her work is absolutely incredible. It is beautiful. It is so high quality, which I'm obsessed with. Her work is so amazing. And you know what? I would be, I can just have a little geek out moment because in college, when I was in college, Rilla was a part of a collective with her husband and a few other artists, Craig Redmond, being one of them, called Renzen. And me and my friends in college were obsessed. We thought they were the best. And so just to have a little bit of a fan boy moment, it's so awesome to call Rilla a friend. She's been really helpful. The past couple of years just helping me work through some of my personal projects and the things I've been trying to pioneer my work recently. She has loads of creative knowledge and wisdom. The things she shares on this episode really were thought provoking for me. She brings real quality to everything she does, including this awesome tip. So here it is, Rilla Alexander bringing you the goods. - I'm Rilla Alexander. I'm a designer, illustrator and I make books. I think a lot about what I would've liked to have known at the beginning of my career because they're exactly the things that I tell my students now. But still, if you had told me that after 20 years that I would still feel like I was proving myself or reinventing the wheel on every single project, I probably wouldn't have believed you. And if you had told me that every day I would struggle with taking my initial ideas through the finished pieces without losing the energy in those initial sketches, I probably wouldn't have believed you. And if you had told me that after pouring my heart and soul into a big project that I wouldn't come away with an immense feeling of pride and instant satisfaction, I probably wouldn't have believed you. That's because at that point, I hadn't finished that many projects. I didn't realize that that creeping feeling of dissatisfaction was actually crucial to my creative process, that that was the exact thing that made me go on and make the next project and to gradually improve little bit by little bit. And I think that's exactly the point. We need to live our own lives. We need to take our ideas through from beginning to end over and over again and again. - Thank you so much, Rilla. Thank you for taking some time out to provide some really insightful thoughts for the podcast and for the listeners. I really appreciate, I appreciate all the help you've given me over the past year. I can't wait to see what your next books are and see what you do next. Thanks again. Okay, there it is. Next up, we have Matt Stevens. Here is a real gentleman. He is someone who has always been very, very kind on the internet to me. I haven't met him in person, but he seems like a really great dude. I picked Matt for the project because, first of all, I just, I really like his story. He kind of did the traditional graphic design route career, route career. I don't know what that means. The traditional career route. He worked his way through, I think, different agencies. And then he did this awesome project called the Max 100, where he drew 100 pairs of Nike Air Max, I believe they're called. And it's a really awesome personal project and that just went all over the place and totally changed the game for him. So not only is his work fantastic, he just has this really interesting story that I think is relevant to lots of you guys who want to shift your career paths. And here's a person who has done it. And he's gonna share some really great insight into how he did that. Here's Matt Stevens. Hi, my name's Matt Stevens. I'm a designer and illustrator from Charlotte, North Carolina. I'm here to talk about what I wish I knew five years ago. I think what I wish I would have known five years ago has a couple of parts to it, but mostly that it's never too late to change your direction. I spent the first 37 years of my life up to through my working career, working in small to mid-size brand shops, design shops. For most of that time, I really liked what I was doing, but saw my career kind of take a direction that I didn't like and I found myself at 37 years old, waiting on other people to kind of make things happen for me and not really liking where I was. It was around that time that I learned kind of the second thing I wish I had known, which was if you want to do a new kind of work, you basically have to find ways to do that kind of work for yourself. No one's going to take a gamble on you or hire you to do something that's unlike anything you've ever done, in most cases. So you have to figure out a way to do that work. You have to make it up, do it for no pay, but start to make your portfolio look the way you want it to look, to start to get that kind of work. And that philosophy and doing those things completely changed my career, completely changed my life. I started doing these crazy projects that at nights on the weekends, just because I needed that creative outlet and that really provided the opportunities and everything, all the groundwork for where I am now, which is basically being able to do work that feels more like me, the work that I connect to creatively. So I would definitely say, don't give up. It's never too late to change direction. And in order to change direction, you've really got to make sacrifices, put in the time, put in the work to make it happen. Thanks a lot. Thank you so much, Matt. I really appreciate it. Your work is fantastic. I love your projects. Thanks for taking the time to share some of your wisdom with us. All right. Next up, we've got Darren Booth. So first of all, just to intro you to Darren, his work is this paint collage type illustration. It's really original, incredibly beautiful. You know, I can't think of anyone out there to even really compare him to. His work is just of the highest caliber. I really look up to and respect his career and this, I don't know, style and-- I don't know, it's just-- it's very sophisticated feeling. He's a Canadian guy. He has always been really nice and encouraging and helpful online. I've yet to meet him. I hope we can run into each other someday. Go check out his work. Now, this tip is a paradigm shifter. These thoughts can massively change the trajectory of your career towards the places that you actually want to go. So I'll leave Darren to it. He says it better than me. Here he is, Darren Booth. Darren Booth, illustrator and lettering artist. One tip that I have and something that I try to share with students and younger creatives is that work begets work. I know that sounds painfully obvious and it probably is. But it's not always the easiest thing to put into practice. Making the kind of work that you want to make or get is one thing but positioning yourself. To get more projects like those from clients is another. So sometimes, like there's a bit of strategy required on our behalf. For example, if you want to make work illustrating book covers but your portfolio doesn't have any in it, you need to create some of those covers to fill that hole in your portfolio or to fill the hole in your heart. And that strategy might need to go a bit further, though. Because one cover may not be sufficient. So you might need two or three before people actually start thinking of your work in those terms. And within those two or three samples that you create, use the opportunity to demonstrate some range, whether it's completely changing up to compositions or exploring the color palettes, what have you. It'll probably help increase your odds of getting work because you're showing some variety and range. So yeah, that's my tip. Thanks Andy, love your podcast. - Awesome, thank you. Thanks Darren so much. Again, go check out his work. It's phenomenal, really beautiful stuff. His technique is mind blowing. Just the type of work that makes you want to quit what you do. His work is super awesome. Thanks Darren for sharing those creative, awesome wisdom thoughts. Creative, creative, awesome wisdom thoughts. Thanks Darren, I really appreciate it man. Next, we've got none other than Eric Morinovich. I got to meet Eric for the first time a few weeks ago in San Francisco. He actually used these tips he's about to give you to wine and dine me. He's an awesome guy. He's someone who, again, awesome online friend. He sent me some cool friends of type stuff. That's a blog that he is a part of. Really great stuff. You should go check that project out. This is a hand letter that knows an infinite amount of amazing creative techniques when it comes to lettering, unparalleled approaches to lettering, so many different things going on, but they all have his hand in them. Go check out his website. It's an overwhelming amount of work that just is gonna knock your socks off. His work is so good. I loved going and hanging out with him in San Francisco. He showed me some really cool spots. We got to see a mural he made for a restaurant there that, and he took us out for a meal that I will not forget. We had a fantastic time. Oh, and he got me to try oysters for the first time. Now, usually when I try something for the first time, it's hard for me to make a judgment. So I don't know if I liked him or not, but you know what, they were different. And I'll try him again sometime soon and I'll let you know, Eric, but thanks for the new experience. He is gonna share some thoughts that I believe if you follow these tips, your career is definitely going to benefit from them. All of these things are things that you should definitely be doing. Here's Eric Morinovich. - Hi, this is Eric Morinovich, a lettering artist based in San Francisco, California. And here's my career tips that I would've liked to have known five years ago. I'm gonna start off light with some karma tips. First, write a letter to one of your heroes. It's always good practice to acknowledge those who keep you inspired and who came before you. Secondly, buy the first meal. People always remember kind gestures. If they don't, they're not worth keeping around. So remember what goes around comes around. Here's some mildly informative tips. Number one, don't work for jerks. Surround yourself with passionate people who are willing to listen and share, especially share. Secondly, nurture your creativity by accepting challenges that scare the living hell out of you. Solving problems outside your comfort zone are always positive for personal growth. Finally, real talk tip. Find a quote you can get behind. Mine is from the great Steven Powers who said, money is cheap, time is expensive. Oh, money is cheap, time is expensive. Oh man, that's so good. Steven Powers is a genius. He is so awesome. Thank you, Eric, for taking a minute and making this for the podcast. Super appreciate it. And I definitely owe you at least a beer, if not a four course meal. Thanks again. So now we've got Mary Kate McDevitt. She is a hand lettering artist. Mary Kate is someone who I don't know personally, but I've kind of watched her career online from afar. I love the personality that she brings to the lettering that she does for herself. I love the quality that she brings to her client work. She's someone who you probably already know about her. She seems to be everywhere. Her work is all over the place. She does really quality stuff. And actually, this tip is something that I probably need to hear. I definitely could be working smarter. So without any more jibber jabber. I don't know. I'm getting creative with my language. Without further ado, which I say too much, I tried to switch it up, but it didn't work out. Here is Mary Kate McDevitt. Hi, my name is Mary Kate McDevitt. I started freelancing full time a little over five years ago. And I wish I would have known to work smarter rather than working longer. Working smarter means being organized and recognizing when you're in the zone. So when you are stuck for ideas or have creative block, you know, to take a step back and reevaluate what initially inspired you or looking over the project brief or just taking a break from the project altogether and moving on to something else. I like to draw on my sketchbook and work on a project that I know I really like. Because otherwise, you're just working longer, fiddling about on a project, going nowhere. Then not only does your work suffer as a result of cutting corners, copying someone else's work, or just not giving it your best, your personal life and the business side of illustration suffers as well. Time wasted on a project is time away from family, friends, life and sleep, as well as the day-to-day business stuff like emails and voices and self-promotion. So it works smarter, not longer. Thank you so much, Mary Kate. I couldn't appreciate that more. That is real genius stuff that we all need to hear. We probably all could get better at this. Thanks again, go check our workout. It is phenomenal, really awesome stuff. Okay, last but not least is my best buddy, my best old friend Andrew Nyer. This is someone who he really is one of my best friends. We make the color me blank exhibit together. He actually developed those five and a half foot giant markers, makes him himself. I think the first time we collaborated on that project and the first time we met actually was in 2011 at his yes gallery in Cincinnati. Andrew is someone who I never get tired of singing his praises because he is a creative genius. And I feel like he's not someone who has internet obsessed as I am. I'm constantly putting stuff out there on the internet. But his work speaks for itself. He doesn't need marketing. He is so creative and he thinks so differently to me. And that's one of the reasons I love him and respect him. And I love spending time with you, Andrew. He knows that because I call him all the time. He calls me, we talk about our creative careers and issues. And he's someone who has helped me shift my paradigm, shift my perspective. He's made a massive impact on my career. I'm super indebted to all the creative wisdom that he's given me all the year over the years. And I love doing the color me project with him. We're hopefully gonna be doing it soon in some new locations. Here, Andrew's gonna talk about a few different things, but I think they're all things that we could all get better at. I know I need to hear this. I need to put this more in practice. Thank you for the encouragement, Andrew. Here it is, Andrew Nier. - My name is Andrew Nier and this is my tip. So, I guess for me, looking back, the biggest thing I struggled with as an early artist and kind of diving into freelance work at a school was, I had a really hard time saying no to any type of job. A lot of it was from just trying to make as much money as you kind of can, but then also a lot of it kind of came from always wanting to do a different type of project I had. And while both of those things are good, there's got to be a balance between the two. So, in order to find out when it makes sense to say no to the job, you kind of have to work backwards and kind of calculate how much money you need to make per hour, per day, per month, whatever makes sense on your calculations, but once you know that number, you have a basis of when it makes sense to say no to. So, for me, I would take on maybe smaller jobs if me working as an artist produced the greatest return of revenue per that time. So, some jobs I might take on that might take me four days of work on, but if it's only gonna pay me 500 bucks, I could probably make more money cutting grass for doing something else per that hour. So, early on, I think those were kind of what held me back from kind of maximizing my output of work with also the income. So, a lot of it just comes down to weighing the options of, if it's not gonna benefit me the most financially, am I getting some type of other relationship or new experience in a new medium, or something that's gonna offset that lower part of pay, but if it's not going to offer any other type of motivation or receipt of something new, then that's the time to say no to a project. And so, I think coming from that, another way of solving this problem for me was setting more hours. Once I was able to establish a set time that I'm gonna work every day, everything kind of became more systematic or I had a better, both my finances and my time were more organized, 'cause that's how the two correlate, is your paid per hour or your paid per day. However, your paid, finding out that balance between the two just makes so much things, just so much simpler, 'cause you know, I'm making this much per hour, so this is how long I can work on that project. If it's gonna exceed this, then I have to cut it off. And so, the second part of that is kind of early on trying to figure out the balance of how do I quote this job or how much did I charge for this? I've never worked in this area before. And for me, I've always found looking back now, if someone's coming to you, they're interested in your work. And so, you kind of have the upper hand, so it doesn't make sense to kind of coward back and feel intimidated by offering a high price point. I think gaining confidence in this area goes with the ability of, this is what it's gonna cost, and if they say no, then you might have some wriggled room, but that's why you always wanna shoot high. So if you think a project's gonna cost you $2,500, quote higher than that, and if they have the budget, then they'll say great, this aligns, and if not, they'll come back and say, well, we only have this. And then you have the opportunity to say, well, for that price point, this is what I can offer. And so, just having that conversation and realizing it's not this, well, it'll cost me this much, and then they'll just say no. It doesn't really work like that. And if it does, that's in your favor, 'cause it's not a client you wanna work with. So I think just being more confident in what you're worth goes a long way, and that will give you the freedom to say no. - All right, thanks, man. I really appreciate it. Go check out his work. He's got some really fantastic minimal paintings, as well as, he earns a lot of his living doing these lights that he's designed and manufactures. He's got a really beautiful crane light. Go check those products out. He's got some really great ideas and beautiful craftsmanship. Yeah, thanks, man. I really appreciate it. You're the best. Okay, so I feel like this has got to be the best episode we've ever had. And you know what? None of these compliments were flattery. I sincerely appreciate all of these people taking time out of their busy schedules to share with you guys and share with me. I picked these people because they are at the top of their game and they make fantastic things that I love, that I'm a passionate guy. I get excited about stuff and I am excited about all of these guests work. I had some other people too that wanna be involved and might be able to be on some further episodes. So we'll see how that goes. Now, I'm gonna share my tip before we sign out. The thing that I really, really wish that I'd known five years ago is that talent amounts to very little and it's much more about desire and work ethic. So, you know, there were a lot of different things that I always wanted to get into. One of them being speaking, public speaking, doing things like this podcast. And there were some other things too that I'm still working on. But one of the things that I feel like I've learned in the past five years that was a really, really hard lesson to learn was that you're not just a naturally born anything. You do have some inclinations and some, maybe natural abilities. But I think that a lot of it comes from even the things that you just spent time doing as a kid. And I think that as a culture, we probably put too much emphasis on these ideas of natural strengths, natural passions. You know, a lot of the things that we're passionate about are things that we're just good at or things that people complimented us about when we were younger. And I think I spent so much time messing around refusing to get started on different skills and different industries, different parts of the industry that I wanted to break into. I spent so much time worrying about whether I could be good at it before I just started to work at getting good at it. And there were some real hard things that I had to learn and things that when I started these skills, I was really, really bad. And I'm just really grateful that I stuck at it and I kept working because those things that I was really bad at ended up turning into things that I was really good at. And it really kind of scares me that, you know, five years ago, I really didn't know if you could cultivate things that you weren't already good at. And I didn't really know if you were just naturally born talented at certain things and not at certain other things. And I'm glad that I've realized that the thing I think that really matters is do you have an intense enough desire to work hard at becoming good at it? Because, you know, really the biggest boundaries are in your mind. And you shouldn't be worrying about, well, can I really be a letterer? Could I really make kids books? Could I really do public speaking? Could I do this? Could I do that? Could I do editorial illustration? Do I really have it in me? You might not have it in you now. But if you have that strong, intense desire, then you're going to be able to be motivated to work hard. And when you work hard at something, that's when you get results. And I think that that's something that I could have definitely missed. I could have definitely been intimidated by the things that I wasn't naturally good at and just given up early on and never learned that lesson. So that's something that I wish I could go back and say, look, these things that you really want to do but you don't know if you're good enough, you just need to work at it. Just spend lots and lots of time putting in the time, be confident that all the time that you're spending is going to turn into results. So that's my tip. Thank you guys so much. I could not appreciate it more. I am so thrilled about this episode. You don't even know. I'm excited about where the podcast is going. Thank you, Patreon backers. You can find and back this podcast financially at patreon.com/creativepeptalk. Thank you guys for backing the podcast. You make this a really easy decision. I'm working on right now getting to the rest of the $10 backers for the reviews. And actually, I think I have maybe one or two spots opening up. And I actually want to do like a review for the $10 backers before you start. If you're thinking about backing at the $10 level, which gives you access to personal reviews, send me an email before you do it. Because I kind of want to do an interview process to make sure it's a good fit for me and a good fit for you. I've started on the $10 backers to give personal-- instead of an email review of your work, I give you a personal pep talk, where I record a pep talk that is focused on the things that I think that you need to be working on, the things that you're doing right. So that's how I've kind of shifted that. That's been working really well. Go check that out. Go check the Patreon and back that. Thank you guys for taking time out of your busy schedules to contribute. I couldn't appreciate it more. You guys are all fantastic. I owe so much to you guys for all the help and encouragement and inspiration that you've given me over the past seven years of my career. I hope that we can all-- I don't know where I'm going with that. Bottom line, I'm super appreciative. Thank you so much. You can find this show at illustrationage.com/creativepeptalk. You can find it at my website, Andy-j-miller.com/creativepeptalk. Or you can go ahead and subscribe on iTunes. You can go give it a review there that helps other people find the podcast. Thank you for supporting me for 50 episodes. Thanks for listening. Thanks for reaching out. All of you people who have reached out and shared the show and emailed me and encouraged me. This has been really one of the best experiences in my career, and I can't wait to bring you another 50 episodes. Thank you so much. And as always, until next time, stay Peptep. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, all. One more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new Fluid Engine. And I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately. And if you want to check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you want to test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself. And when you're ready to launch, use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. [MUSIC PLAYING] I did consider Barney a friend, and he's still a friend to this day. The idea of Barney is something that I want to live up to. I love who you love me. I call it the purple mantra. Barney taught me how to be a man. Generation Barney, a podcast about the media we loved as kids and how it shapes us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. [MUSIC PLAYING]