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Creative Pep Talk
018 - The Most Importan Question - What Do I Want to See
(upbeat music) Hey y'all, just a quick heads up. The episode you're about to listen to is eight to 10 years old. Now, these episodes were intended to be evergreen, and I still believe there's a lot of good information in these early episodes, but I do wanna let you know that some of my ideas have evolved over time. Times have changed since we made these episodes, and ultimately, I'd like to think I've grown a lot as an artist and a human, and that these don't necessarily represent my best work, or the best of the podcast. If you're new around here, I suggest starting with the most recent episode, or at least go back to around 300, and move forward from there. Enjoy the episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Well, look who it is. Surprised you showed up to listen to the Creative Pep Talk podcast. Didn't think I'd see your face around here again. Anyway, this is the Creative Pep Talk podcast. This is Andy J. Miller. I'm an illustrator who does lots of different stuff, and I don't have my coffee today, so that's one thing you don't have to listen to me slurp. The slurping is one of my favorite parts of this show, and I hope it is one of your favorite parts. It's like I get to have coffee with hundreds of people at the same time, what a good feeling. If you don't like the coffee slurp, well, you might be the only person who doesn't, because it's casual, it's friendly, it's a sound that means we're having a good moment with each other, so just enjoy it. But today you're not going to enjoy, 'cause I don't have my coffee today. So today, what we're gonna talk about is maybe the most important question to ask yourself when making things, and it's this. What would I want? What would I want? It's the most simple question in the world. It's super obvious, but we, I think, maybe the further along you go in your career, the harder it is to remember to ask yourself that question. So we're gonna look at why that maybe is, like why is it hard to remember to ask yourself this question, and we're gonna talk about why it's so important, and that is what we're gonna do on this episode. So. - I'm a believer in the idea of dressing for the job you want, not the job you have, and I have applied this to my creative practice too, which means if you want professional results, you need to present online like a pro, and that means going beyond social media and having a professional website that reflects your style and looks legit. I rebuilt my site this year with Squarespace's Fluid Engine, and was so happy with how easily I could build my vision without coding, that when they approached me to support the show, I jumped at the chance because I love and use this product. So go check it out, squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out for yourself, and when you're ready to launch your site use promo code PEPTALK, all one word, all caps for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks goes out to Squarespace for supporting the show and supporting creators all over the world. Hey, in case you don't know, we have a monthly live virtual meetup every last Monday of the month with supporters of the show from Patreon and Substack. We have so much fun on these calls and they are the warmest, most encouraging creatives that I have ever met. And we also talk real creative practice stuff. We have authors, illustrators, lettering artists, picture bookmakers, fine artists, musicians, and folks that work in video and film as well. And we have people that are just starting out, people super established in their creative careers and everything in between. For the rest of this year, we're gonna chat through our new journey of the true fan series exploring questions and ways to apply these ideas to your own creative practice so that you can leave 2024 stronger than you came in with more visibility, connection with your audience and sales. Sign up to whichever suits you best at either patreon.com/creativepeptalk or antijpizza.substack.com. And I hope to see you at this month's meetup. - Here's where I started thinking about this because I was thinking about podcast ideas. I'm always kind of capturing ideas as I go. But the thing that I try to do is that before I record one, I want to feel like I believe in the thing in that moment that I'm really feeling the topic because I want my passion to show through for something I really believe in. And so if I'm not feeling it, I don't wanna record an episode on that. But I'm always thinking and I'm always coming up with things and I'm passionate about all kinds of things every day. And so there's always something that kind of hits those areas for me. So as I was thinking through what podcast I wanted to do this week, this question popped in my mind and it made things super clear and it was when I looked through my own podcasts, the episodes I've done, I think about which one of these would be the ones that stuck out to me that would be the ones that I would listen to. If I didn't know the show and I wasn't a major fan and I didn't want to listen to all of them, which one of these topics would be something that would stand out to me as something I really want to hear something about. And as I did that, it clarified what I wanted this podcast to be about. What way I wanted to lean towards. And the things that I wanted to lean towards, what I realized was it's rarely about the topic that draws me into a podcast. It's more about the types of topics. And so for me, the types of topics that I'm drawn to are things that are nonspecific. Like I rarely like to listen to podcasts that are really specific about details like do these five things. They're hot right now. They're trending or whatever, all that junk. That stuff doesn't really like pull at me or even like specific like use this thing or do this thing or use this the app that you need or all that stuff. Stuff doesn't interest me at all. What's interesting to me is stuff that maybe is considered a little bit like the more deep work, the deeper work of becoming great. Like the general principles behind doing good art or doing good work. And I think it's those deeper truths. And they're things that are maybe not things where I say here's the answer, but they're more like here's the question you need to ask yourself. So it's not definitive. It's kind of poking at a subject that's a deeper underlying truth that you have to figure out for yourself. And it's questions that you need reminded to ask yourself. It's exercises and activities and thought experiments that you need to run through yourself to clarify and have moments of breakthrough. Things that I can push out there to other people that will cause them to think about what they do in a different way that has the possibility of becoming a catalyst for a breakthrough for that person in their work. So those are the kinds of things that I like to listen to. And so even as I thought that, I thought that's such a clarifying thing. It's always helps me no matter what I'm working on to ask that question. I'm gonna do a whole podcast about that. So the first thing I'm gonna do is tell you a little bit of a story about my buddy Jeffrey Bowman and I when we first graduated college, he graduated a year ahead of me actually. We decided to do a zine and the first issue we did between us. And it was really just fun stuff that we didn't have weren't able to put anywhere. The second issue was very exciting and we got all of these artists that we didn't think would even contribute to contribute to the zine and it was super exciting. But what I wanna talk about is the third issue that we did. And just full disclosure, there's a lot of things that I really love about that third issue. But after it was all said and done, I think Jeff and I made the same conclusion. So we were working on this issue and the first one did pretty well, sold quite a few copies. Then the second one, we got some of our favorite artists involved and that sold quite a few copies. But by the third time, I think we were so deep into making this thing. We were so excited about where it had gone. We were so deep into it that we got into that place where we forgot what it was all about. And we started making all these kind of crazy, we had a music CD, which was super cool because I had one of my favorite musicians, Andy Guy, make a song for the zine and contribute a picture. And we had, which is half-handed cloud. And then we had another one of my favorite illustrators, Jim, Jim, the illustrator, Jim Stoughton, did a song for the CD. And it was really cool. And there was all, I mean, there was so many cool things about it. But when it was all said and done, we'd gotten so busy in all the details and we'd gotten so detached from the vision of the project that the third one just left us like, exhausted and just not that into it. We kind of lost interest. And I remember we had we got this really cool project to go to Glasgow. And they rented us car and it was for converse. And we, him and I drove up together to Glasgow from Yorkshire and we stayed the night there and we got to draw on these windows of a shoe shop in Glasgow and they videoed it and they made a little video thing out of it. And it was an excellent time. It was one of my favorite memories. And he, as we were going up or on the way back, we just started talking about the issue three. I think it was all said and done at that point. I think we'd already put it out there and we were finished up with it. We're talking about whether we wanted to do another issue. We didn't end up doing another issue. But I remember we were having a conversation about what maybe, you know, we kind of think we both had a sense that it wasn't as enjoyable to make as issue one and issue two. And we weren't really sure why. And I remember if he said it or I said it, but we realized that we, you know, we put this out there. If we saw that issue somewhere, would it have been something that we would have wanted to buy? Or would it have been something that we were really excited to see in the world? And was it something that, and I remember thinking no. And it was close to it. It resembled the vision of our taste and our interest and our work, but it ventured out, passed all those things in a way that didn't feel that great to us. We weren't that stoked in that way. And although it had a lot of different successes, it was in that way, it failed. It didn't, it wasn't something, we didn't make something with the idea of what would we want to see in the collaborative zine. And I think that that's really when it started to not work. And I think, have you ever noticed that as you go along in your creative career or into your, deeper into your industry that you, and maybe you're like me and you see, every year you like less things. Or you come across less things that excite you and surprise you. And it's not so much that it sounds kind of bad, it's not bad. Because the things that actually do hit you, the things that really do peak your interest are a stronger, more intense emotional experience than anyone that you've had in the past. But if you're like me, you know, when I was in high school, I liked lots of visual art things. I liked from all over the gambit. I liked all kinds of different things. And then as I went to college, that narrowed down a little bit. And I, you know, I went from liking pretty much any visual art to liking art that had limited color palette, that had more simple shapes. And then as I got out and I started making my own work properly, it narrowed down again. And it fears off and it goes and changes and it molds. But every year, it's harder for me to find a book or an image or a thing where I'm like, this has the total package. Like there's nothing in this that I would have done differently. It's blowing me away, it's surprising me. I can't even believe it exists. That experience happens less and less and less as I develop my taste, right? So just stay with me, I'm going somewhere. So Ira Glass has this. He's the talk show host or the host of this American life. And he has this really famous video on the web where he talks about taste, he talks about the gap, is what he calls it. And it's the gap where you have this really good taste when you start getting interested in something and then you start making stuff. And it's not as good as your taste. So you know it's not that good so you give up. But you actually have to trudge on for years and years until your work catches up with your taste. Now, that's great and that's fine. And that's really actually fantastic. But I think you could take it a step further. And I think one of the things that he's saying that I think is so interesting is that-- and it's almost like down to the semantics thing, you know, like he's saying your taste is so important. And I almost feel like when you first hear that, you don't love it because the word taste doesn't capture completely what he's saying. It's more than your taste. And I would say that it's maybe your intuition. It's your intuition. It's more than taste. Your taste is the thing that says you like what's going on here or you don't like what's going on here. And you can't always explain it because it's something deeper than that. And it's an intuitive feeling. And I feel like when you listen to that intuitive feeling, that's the thing that tells you where to go. And so I think this is what you need to do with your work, right? So when I'm making this kid's book, one of the steps that maybe "Ira Glass" didn't say is that when you develop this taste and it finally reaches to the point where your work is as good as your taste, and you start getting feedback and you get some success that you can sometimes detach yourself from that taste and start going off on a side road and making work that's obscure. And maybe you wouldn't even like it. And there's all kinds of reasons for that. And I'm going to get to that. But I think that you need to use this intuition. So when I'm making this kid's book, it's easy to get down in the details. And I'm starting to think about what a kid's book should be. And I'm thinking about, oh, what I like. And I'm mixing that with this trick and that trick and this thing I read and I'm drawing and I'm sketching and I'm coming up with all these ideas and I'm making the thing. And I'm so deep within the thing. I forget to ask myself, would I like this book? The place to start is if you walked into a bookshop, what would it look like for me to walk into a bookshop, pick up a kid's book off the shelf, have my mind blown by the cover, by the title, by the story as I'm flipping through the pages, what spread would look like when you get to the height of the story, what spread in that book would blow my mind and what about it would blow my mind. And it makes me start thinking about what books have done that to me in the past and why? And then what books that I love in the past that didn't hit the mark of my taste completely, what were those things that they did that according to my taste was wrong in quotes? And you start asking yourself those questions, you start looking out into the world and saying, okay, what is the thing missing out in the world? What's the book that I'm looking for on the shelves that's not there? That's the book you make. When you're online, you're seeing your friends and your peers posting your work and all that stuff. You know, sometimes something gets you excited and you're stoked about it, but there's always something not right with it. What is that? What's the thing that it's not satisfying, that feeling, that thing that you want to see in the world? That's what you make. That's the thing that you need to make. And it's not just taste, it's your intuition. It's maybe even more than your intuition. Maybe it's something else, it's a drive within you that's saying there's something in the world that needs to be put out there. And it's not out there because the more you develop your taste, the less things you like. And it gets to a point where nothing is satisfying your taste. And hopefully at that point, you've developed enough to make work that is the only thing that really satisfies your particular view, your particular taste. The particular thing that you need to see in the world, that you want to see in the world, is the thing that you can make. That maybe just might be the real goal. - The holidays are upon us and finding the right gift for your kids, nieces and nephews and partner and family members can be super difficult, but it doesn't have to be. Go check out Uncommon Goods. Sophie and I were checking it out the other day, looking for gifts for our kids. They have a make your own storybook kit, which we love. There's this cardboard tool kit with a cardboard saw that's safe and connectors. You can build cool stuff and forts and whatnot. They also got these building connectors where you can connect sticks and make a fort. Mainly, I just like forts, but there's tons of cool creative gifts that will inspire your kids to go make stuff. But we could also easily have just bought stuff for each other or even ourselves. This curated selection of goods means that you don't have to scour the internet for something unique and exciting and you're supporting artists and small businesses at the same time, which you know I love. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com/peptalk. That's uncommongoods.com/peptalk. For 15% off, don't miss out on this limited time offer uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary. - When you need meal time inspiration, it's worth shopping king supers for thousands of appetizing ingredients that inspire countless mouth-watering meals. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices. Plus extra ways to save, like digital coupons worth over $600 each week and up to $1 off per gallon at the pump with points. So you can get big flavors and big savings, king supers, fresh for everyone, fuel restrictions apply. - So. (sighs) Let's talk about wrap, because I haven't done that in this episode yet. You know, I think we get to the point where you can't see the forest for the trees. You see the trees, you see the details, you're down in the muck, making the stuff, but you forget about the forest, right? You know, Frank, Chimero, Chimero, I've heard by his own, I think he even said in an interview once that he doesn't know if there's an exact way to say his last name. He has a poster that says, people ignore design that ignores people. I think it's one of his older posters, but I still think it's a great point. And it's easy as you're a designer to get deep within the trenches of kerning and page layout and, you know, composition and color and you get so deep in there that you're speaking a language and you're focusing on these tricks and these ideas that regular people don't know, they don't see it, they don't care. And when you're making work like that, people will ignore it because you're ignoring them. And so what does this go back to? What's the issue here? Well, one of them, one of the things I think that can throw you off the path so far is this word audience. And I think we're in a time with a culture that's really rejecting the idea of the audience because we don't like people being on stage above anybody else in a lot of ways. You know, I recently read something about, you know, the culture will cheer you on as you rise to stardom, as you rise to the platform. But as soon as you're there, they're gonna tear you down for saying that you're above them. And maybe they should, I don't know. Maybe we shouldn't, maybe nobody should be on a platform. That's a different conversation. But I think the word audience implies something. It implies, if you think of the people that like and interact with your work as an audience, then you're putting yourself on stage. You're making you separate to them. You're other to them. They're the ones down, you're the one up. And when you start thinking about your work like that, you start thinking about manipulating masses of people. And if you've ever found yourself making something, thinking this thing, oh, they're gonna love this thing, they are going to eat this up. And you put it out into the world and nobody cares. Is it possible that in that moment, you're forgetting, do you, would you eat it up? Or do you just think this audience of yours is lower than you, is stupid, that you're gonna pull the wool over their eyes? Now, back to the rap. I don't listen to Nicki Minaj. I've heard her on a few verses and she's all right. She's not really my taste. But I don't prefer to listen to music that is maybe as vulgar and all that as some of the music she makes. But it's a good little case study for this. Now, she came up, I heard the story, I think, on this American life. So that just shows you kind of the weird use of the story. But so what I think happened is she comes up through the rap industry as someone who has these real rap chops and people are excited because it's, you know, this African-American woman African-American woman who is killing it in the rap game and she's selling more, she's selling maybe the most records of any African-American rapper ever or close to. And so that, her fans, the people that believe in that are so excited about it, right? But then once she gets big enough she makes a song that's what they call EDM, electronic dance music. Which is basically what most of the radio music is now. Like Coldplay is electronic dance music now and Katy Perry and it's basically the version of selling out right now in the current culture. And she makes this massive pop electronic dance music hit. And there's this white radio DJ who had worked himself up through this culture and he is on stage at a festival and openly this is Nikki for doing this. And saying that she's betrayed everything that got her there and she's betrayed the culture and she's sold out to pop culture. And at first there's this big feud between them. Eventually I think she kind of makes friends with this guy. And she says, I think she kind of says like you were right to a certain extent. And I think, you know, one of the things that you see over and over is these people who make these personal, beautiful albums and they're unique and they blow up. And then every year they're making music that's less and less human and why? Because when you make that much money and you're that big and you're surrounded by celebrities and you live in Hollywood and you drink fancy drinks and you have a limousine driver and you have bodyguards you're less like a regular human that lives in the world and you don't have as much to comment on regular life and what you're talking about doesn't make sense to anybody anymore that are making, you know, that live in regular world. And I think so often that's the tale of, you know, big musicians and I think that what happens there is is a disconnect from audience. And it's a disconnect from seeing yourself as like the audience. In that moment when you switch over and say, I'm not talking as part of the conversation with you. I'm not talking to you, I'm talking down to you. And I think it's so easy to get on that. When you, because I think for some reason we think we're creating work, it's elevating us. And I think that it's that type of work that just is not palatable. It's not, you know, it's not that nice to digest. And I think the best thing you can do is put yourself in the audience and say, what would I love? What would move me? What's the thing? What do I wanna see? What book do I wanna see that's not on the shelves? What image do I wanna see that's not out there? If you ask yourself that every time you make something I can almost guarantee that your work is gonna be better. All right, so I have done another podcast and I've got to the other side and I hope that it has encouraged you and maybe reminded you of some things that you maybe haven't been thinking about. I hope that this gives you a good start to your day. And, you know, I really appreciate all the feedback and all the help you guys have been doing to spread this thing. And I appreciate the emails I've got that have said that, you know, this means something to you. And that makes me feel like I'm making meaningful work by sharing my life and my kind of behind the scenes to my illustration career. And, you know, I don't, I've told you this before, you know, I don't feel like, I don't feel like this is a thing where you are my audience as a podcast and I'm speaking down to you. I don't think that at all. I actually know for a fact that I've got some people listening to this podcast and enjoying it that are much further ahead of me, much wiser than me. And so I don't think of it like that and I don't want you to think that I do. I merely feel like this thing is something where I can jot down the thoughts that I'm having that are helping me have breakthroughs in my work. And if I'm open in my dialogue with that, with everybody, then it might spur somebody else on or help them even as a jumping point or even as a reminder. So yeah, thanks for the reviews on iTunes. That's super awesome and it really helps. And it's, I think that's what actually got the podcast, podcast on the new and noteworthy section of the arts page on iTunes, which is really fantastic. And so yeah, if you know somebody who you think this would really help them in their work, send them a link. I think that I've had more than one occasion when I've done that and it's really helped somebody with other podcasts. And yeah, I hope that, hope this thing is just a gift to you today and I hope I get to talk to you guys soon. So yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey y'all, one more quick thing. Earlier this year, I rebuilt my website using Squarespace's new fluid engine and I was so pumped about how it turned out that I have been really thrilled to find as many ways to partner with them and tell you about what they can do and bring you discounts as possible. With social media going haywire, I think having a site that feels as unique as your creative work is essential to building trust with your target audience or your clients. I have had several clients point out how cohesive and fresh my site looks lately and if you wanna check that out and what I was able to do without any code, check out AndyJPizza.com. If you wanna test it out, go to squarespace.com/peptalk to test it out yourself and when you're ready to launch, use promo code PEPTALK for 10% off your first purchase. Thanks Squarespace for supporting the show and for supporting creative people. - I'm Whit Msildine, the creator of This Is Actually Happening, a podcast from Wondery that brings you extraordinary true stories of life changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future family with one choice, to a woman that barely survived her roommate, we dive into what happened and hear their intimate first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances. Follow This Is Actually Happening on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app.