Geekscape

The Geekscape 'Daredevil' Season 2 Special!

Here it is Geekscapists, the 'Daredevil' Season 2 spectacular with Ian Kerner that you've been waiting for! There are TONS OF SPOILERS in this episode but obviously we ALL spent our weekends watching Season 2 so we're ready for it! The Punisher! Elektra! The rise of The Hand! This was a pretty stacked season (was it better than Season 1?) so there's a lot to talk about! Let's get to it! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Duration:: 1h 11m
Broadcast on:: 24 Mar 2016
Audio Format:: other

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Nada Yara Island. We're back on the Nada Yara Island Confessions Show. Benny is about to tell us how he found two loves. Go ahead. Yeah, thanks to Metro. I found iPhone 12 and Apple Watch SE. At Metro, get the perfect match of both iPhone 12 with 5G and Apple Watch SE for only $99.99. You heard that right, both for just $99.99. Holidays with Nada Yara Yara, only at Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number 90, sign up for Metro Flex Plus, and add a watch line. Not available if you're with T-Mobile or Ben with Metro in the past 180 days. Limit to your workout. OK, I have to tell you. I was just looking on eBay where I go for all kinds of things I love, and there it was. That hologram trading card. One of the rarest, the last one I needed for my set. Shiny like this. Designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. eBay had it, and now everyone's asking, "Ooh, where'd you get your?" Windshield wipers. eBay has all the parts that fit my car. No more knowing. Ah, ah. Just beautiful. Whatever you love, find it on eBay. Things people love. Hey, GeekScape is a big surprise here for you. We actually have your Daredevil Season 2 podcast. Welcome to GeekScape. This is a special. We're going to be talking all about the second season of Daredevil, which we all watched this past weekend, and we weren't not going to watch it. This has got to be one of the biggest events of this year, and this year is pretty packed with Batman vs Superman, Captain America 3, and we've got another Star Wars movie coming out towards the end of the year in Rogue One. So this is an awesome geek year, and it's crazy that now we get to see these Marvel Netflix shows twice a year, because we've got Luke Cage coming September 30th. And we just got done with Jessica Jones in November, so it's going to be this way for a very long time. It's exciting. It's really exciting, and GeekScape is, I know we failed you a few times. Oh yeah, we had Deadpool too. So we've dropped the ball a few times on your recap shows with Ian Kerner, your super spoiler-filled specials, but we're not going to do it this time, because Daredevil really is a huge event, and we love this series. So we made a point to really make the time, and we're here in the middle of the week, arguably during work hours, to give you guys the lowdown on what we thought on season two and what we watched this past weekend. So Ian, Daredevil season two, we watched all of it. Let's start with like the broad stroke. Well first of all right, and guys, there will be spoilers. There will be massive spoilers. Of course. We're going to break this down. That is the impressions that I, what I liked about the season on the main show that's up on the website right now, but this is for the nitty gritty we've seen all 13 episodes where hardcore GeekScape soldiers were watching it for the spoilers and for the insight that only Ian can provide. So be ready for that, Ian, you're saying. So broad strokes, you know. Oh, so broad a stroke. Is this better than season? Do you like this one in the season one? I'm going to go even broader and just talk about the Netflix in general, because I don't think, you know, somehow we haven't been, we haven't reviewed the others. Right. Well, there's only one other. We did that. And we did that. We did that. Yes. We did that. Jessica Jones. I think that, you know, most people agree that Daredevil season one prior to this was the best MCU, certainly among the best comic to film or television adaptations ever. Amazing. You know, amazing. And this out did it. Yeah. You know, this is. Yeah. I've met one person who disagrees, but not by a lot. Yeah. You can find flaws, but when you have 13 hours of content, you know, you're going to find some flaws. And I want to talk about that a bit, and maybe for the broad strokes conversation, let's talk about it a little bit. We're going to get into the nitty gritty, but, you know, I was having a conversation with a buddy of ours, and I said, you know, here's the thing people don't realize, there's this tendency to think about the Netflix stuff, because it's all available all at once, think about like, oh, you know, it's a big movie, but, you know, you know, I work in television, and I understand how television is made. And the reality of these Netflix shows is they may, just like any other television show, it's just that we're getting them all at the same time that they would have been delivering, for instance, Walking Dead episode 15's going to air this week, the 16th of the next week. And episode 16 of the season was delivered recently, was finished, you know, that's how that works. So they have to finish all of it. But one of the constraints that you have in television is they're writing as they're going, because there isn't that much time. The reason cable and Netflix tends to be a little bit better quality than network, and you literally hear network writers and editors complaining that, oh, they have, you know, they have so much time on the cable stuff, because if they're only doing 13 episodes or fewer in the same year that the others do in 22, they can't spend as much time on it. Well, even so, I think that if anything, the biggest problem with Daredevil season 2, which also exists in season 1 and certainly exists in Jessica Jones, is you see certain stuff at the beginning of the season, and then you get to the end of the season, you're kind of like, how did that happen? It seemed like a leap. It seemed inconsistent, because they shoot the early part of the season, and they're still kind of making up as they go along. It's not a true Bible, you know, it's not as much as we'd like it to be. It isn't. And it's about time. I listen to the Game of Thrones guys talking about how they do Game of Thrones, and because that shot on multiple continents, with multiple directors and a scale that big, they really do plan everything out. That's planned, that's planned. That is like a war plan. Well in advance, and the scripts are done before the first frame is shot. The rare show? That's very rare. The rare show that was done at that level, which shows in the quality of it, the sopranos, David Chase was so involved, that he'd have the whole thing done, he'd be involved in every aspect of production, and they wouldn't do any post till it was completely done and rapped, back east, he'd come to LA and maybe post. And that's why it took two years, because to do that would take two years to do the season. And maybe that's a good thing. You know, one of our buddies would come to how, you know, with the shooting schedule being what it is, there's no prayer of Daredevil even going in front of the cameras again to late next year. Right. For season three. 17, right. Yeah. And the reality of that is, and my attitude was, well, this is so cinematic, that's not necessarily a bad thing, network TV doesn't do that. You don't go two years. You go on the schedule next year or not. Right. But we can do that. And that's not horrible. I mean, the 13 hours of content. We have shows in which these characters can stay alive. Yeah. They're still going to be in the forefront of our narrative because Luke Cage is going to exist in that. Right. And we're going to get Daredevil and Defenders. We're going to get Iron Fist. Right. Now, jumping ahead to the nitty gritty, the way this season ended, I'm certainly wondering, is that a set up for Defenders or set up for Daredevil season three? I think it's a season three. I don't think it's for Defenders. Okay. Well, let's start to talk about it. Where did we come off of Jessica Jones? And I know we didn't do a Jessica Jones show, but where do you see the state of this corner of the Marvel Cinematic Universe coming out of Jessica Jones? So let me address Jessica Jones with saying this. I really like Jessica Jones more than I expected to. She really grew on me by halfway through, I was like, "Alright, she's Jessica Jones and I got it and I like her." Yes. I thought it was pretty loyal. It was really loyal to that Mendes run. It was. It was. Honestly, my biggest problem with it was where it should have been a little more slavish to those comics in the sense that they should have had her investigating cases in those episodes. There was two Killgrave Centric, what I mean by that is, it just seemed like 13 episodes like, "God, this should have been resolved in eight." And yes, it felt like some of those started to be a bit coyote in the Roadrunner in which she'd catch him. He'd get away. Exactly. It was like, really? And that's all it is. I mean, I thought the progress was like the Wildcat Nuke storyline, which I was like, "Okay, this is not going back on itself and this is progressing and I'd love to see this story too." And I didn't mind having, I mean, look, Tenant was such a phenomenon in the show that I can't really bitch. I'm not saying there was too much Tenant. I wanted a Tenant every episode, but plot-wise, it needed something to break it up. And what it needed was her actually being a PI. And I get about the end. It was almost like they stayed away from her being a PI because it was supposed to be, she's not really successful until after this and now she's truly as investigations. And they want every first season to be a true origin story. And I get it and I think it was a nice payoff at the end there, but I think it would have played better if it was just something in the background. That happened to me. Yeah. Because that's how the Alias comic played. It was buggener, it was down about it and it was wild. And then very first, I mean, but that very first arc in the Alias comic is her investigating the sex scandal with Katharine America. Yeah. You know, and it had nothing to do with Kilgrave. Nothing at all. It wasn't until the second or third. Yeah. It was just in the background there was subtle references to it. Right. You didn't know what it was. You didn't know what it was going to be. You really found out what happened to her and it was a while before they really dealt with it. Right. So, I mean, I'm guessing from this you didn't enjoy Jessica Jones on the level of Daredevil but you still appreciate it quite a bit and think it's awesome that it exists. Still awesome. I mean, up there, you know, still the level of quality, what they're doing and the storytelling. And I'm with you that Daredevil is the best thing Marvel has produced. So saying that it's not the level of Daredevil is phenomenal. Wait, even saying, and let's just say when we say it's the best thing Marvel has produced, I mean... Ant-Man Guardians again. So what Marvel has done is at the top of the game of comics to film and to me, I say film at TV Counts. Sure. And this is MCU. Sure. I mean, it's just that good. So here we are after Jessica Jones and we start on the first episode of Daredevil. The pieces are all kind of where they were and I love seeing the end of the season and then seeing the beginning of the, thinking back to the beginning of the season in that first episode where they're all at Josie's and they're getting along and what I loved about this season was the Karen Matt story, I thought that was handled so nicely in the way that it was like, okay, how far are they going to go down this road of an actual relationship? And I think they went far enough for it to go and then go into disarray as almost everything in the season does for Matt, his relationship with Foggy, the law firm, his relationship with Elektra, his relationship with himself and his beliefs on whether or not his version of vigilantism is equal or better than Frank's. Everything seemed to be in doubt and I call this like the Empire Strikes Back ending of the Daredevil storyline, you know, because man, it started out so positive and then it ended so badly. Well, I mean, I like the notion that Matt's not good, you know, there's definitely one of the characters for him is the way he was trained by Stick is to not have a life and to not let people in. And only to fight in this war. Right. And even though he was not really engulfed in the war, he still let some of Stick's lessons in life affect his life, so he wasn't bringing Karen and people like that in. You know, one of the things that I think become pretty evident in Daredevil Season 2, although less so with Karen, it's a pet peeve of mine and I don't want to branch into the top of something we'll probably talk about next week, but, you know, I re-watch Man of Steel the other day and it's the same thing is that, you know, in the modern world, in the real world, the secret identity thing is just not realistic. I'm not saying if you're not famous that the whole world's going to know who you are, but people that know you are going to know who you are. And my favorite thing jumping ahead is Elektra is like, oh yeah, you know, I'd know that ass anywhere, which by the way, it was fully cribbing the Grayson comic right now. Right. But, you know, she also has skills that Karen doesn't. I mean, if you're going to believe the narrative that this all three people were. Well, look, the bottom line is this, she already knows he can fight that way and see someone's running around like it. It wasn't even clear. Like, who's such, you know, the end quote, Daredevil on film? But I also think that there was that shot of Karen upon leaving with the rescued hostages. She should have known right there. I'm just really frustrated. Well, I'm not saying she doesn't know. It's not clear when he goes to tell her later. Then that's kind of what I love about this is that... Didn't you think that was the Mary Jane moment from... I think when she stood there and the hostages were rescued, episode 11 or 12, she looks back at Matt. That's a 13. Yeah, she looks back at Daredevil. He's just rescued her. He's talking to her. He's talking to her. He says her name. She causes that. She knows. That's what I think. I feel like when Daredevil season 2 ends, she knows which really sets things up for the come up. But then he tells her anyway. Well, here's the thing. It's like... Yeah, he does end up telling her, but man, after that threat that Wilson Fisk gave him in episode 11, I would not have told anybody what my secret identity is because it perfectly sets it up for season 3 to be the man without fear. I know. Born again. Born again. That's the other thing is Fisk realized from the punch because it's literally in the moment there it is. The adrenaline's up. He's grabbed Matt. Matt came and helped himself. He instinctively hits him and he says, "So in the moment we'll go son of a boxer writing who had a hit." And it's literally like, "Well, guess what? And sorry, there's no homosexual undertones in this statement, but physically in a fight is very intimate." Yeah. It's intimate. There's people I spar with on a regular basis. I know how they fight and all they move. I know what that's like. This is a guy that he's fought. And I'm sick, so I know about it intimacy. Right. But I'm just saying that fighting being different than that, but here's a guy in a close like that and a biotep and all that, and suddenly you get hit and it's like, "Oh, this guy hit me the way that guy hits me." He's sinking back on it afterwards. He touches his mouth as he's eating and goes, "Get me anything on it." He's occurring to me in that moment and it's something I'm like, "He's fucking Daredevil." Well, let's work our way to Wilson Fist because you told me to watch episode eight. When I was texting you alongside you, you were ahead of me, you finished before me. And as I was texting you, I felt like it was safe to be texting you as I had these discoveries. Yeah, I don't say anything. And you told me, "Get through season eight." You were going to stop and I said, "Get through eight." Well, I had to stop, and I did, but man, when we fucking watched the other episode eight, it was like, "We're binging the rest of this." No, I lost it when I watched the opening for eight and stick shows up and I went, "Oh, this is it." And then for eight to end the week, they're like, "It was the second Frank walks in the jail yard." Yeah. You just see the plates. Oh, I knew like. It's party time. Yeah. I can't believe they brought them back. Yeah. The one thing that Geekscape is obviously you're watching this, so it's going to be spoiled for you and I hope it wasn't spoiled for you as you watch it because it wasn't spoiled for me. No. I was just hoping and it was great that the special guest are at the end, you know? I was loving it. But let's scale all the way back and not too far, but let's scale back to episode three because really what starts to really get the engine running on this. One, two, three, what's great is, you know, each one you have that partnership fight and episode one, great first partnership fight. Kill those guys. Dude. Amazing. Bang. And they, none of them drop to the ground. Dude, he says bang. Yeah. You're like, "Oh my God." What I love about it is it really adheres to the Garthonist Punisher. Even, I mean, episode three, that conversation when Matt has chained to the, to the fire, to the chimney, that is almost verbatim that Garthonist sequence where Frank just beats the shit out of Matt, chains him to a chimney and says, "We're going to talk about our conflicting ideologies." And it was great. Yeah. I mean, it's really amazing writing. Yeah. And there on, I don't see how you're not immediately just sold on the fact that, A, this is easily the best iteration of the Punisher to ever see the scene, to ever see the screen. Not that a guy with a gun is an already the better version of the Punisher, but not only is this the best, but what the, what the, what the creators are doing here that I think is so hard with, and probably the reason why characters like Frank and Elektra have failed in their iterations on screen or their various incarnations is, these characters are not existing in a clear, good or evil. They're not necessarily good guys. They're not always bad guys. In the comics, they vacillate between the two and it's very easy when you're writing these characters to keep them vague, to keep their motivations vague. No, their motivations were so clearly defined and their codes were so clearly defined in these that it's really a testament to the writers that they said, "No, we're actually going to set the chess pieces for them mentally and emotionally to where they can play good guys at times, bad guys at times," but it's not going to be a contradiction of who they are and these characters are going to have engines internally that are going to be unique and they're going to be really awesome to watch. They're so engaging. What's great is, I think a lot of us are worried, you've got Punisher and Elektra in the same season, what it's going to be, and it ends up being, it's Matt's character arc, the end of his character arc, is actually that struggle of justifying both of them representing him with this conflicting, moral perspective. And I know everybody wanted Bullseye, but Bullseye is so clearly on one end that I'm glad that the little Frank and Elektra from the get go I was worried but it worked out and played out even down to how it ended, it was fine not having Bullseye, you know? You didn't need Bullseye, but Bullseye would have been a distraction, it would have been too much, you know, Bullseye, it's a different level, it's a different thing. And he's very clearly in the black, you know, like he's very clearly on that side. If Matt is spending season two, aka the Empire Strikes Back season, as I've called it, if he's spending it, if he's spending it in that moral question area where he's trying to keep everything together and it all goes back to that first scene with him and Foggy walking down the sidewalk and they're hopeful about Nelson Murdock, they're going to get it going and he's trying to keep these things tethered together and working as everything's fraying around him and getting even worse as the season goes on, those two characters really go down to the core of that struggle as you said. And it didn't the whole notion of the public's attitudes about the Punisher, some people saying he's murder, some people saying what he's doing is right in justice. For me it reminded me of Kingdom Come, and you know, the whole thing with McGog and Superman, you know, which to reiterate for people that don't know in the comics is Kingdom Come's a version of DC Universe in the future. And in that future, Metropolis was blown up, nuclear, all that, and there's a supposed superhero in the future who has more of a Punisher bent, recognizing the time that the book was written, there was a lot of this going on, and he goes and he basically kills people. And he kills people who respond to all that, and Superman being the classic Superman is just not having it, you know, and actually takes the guy in. I mean... You try so. Yeah, the twist on it eventually, of course, is that the guy ends up being his son from an alternative, but that doesn't matter. But the point is that it's a great moral thing to have when you're dealing with vigilante. Here's Daredevil who he's taking long his own hands, he's beating the shit out of people, he's doing all that, but he doesn't cross that line, but people aren't really sure what the line is. They do have the vigilante showing up. So you know, so who's right, who's wrong, how far does it go? And to take, to turn it into the trial of Frank Castle, to go even further away. How pumped were you on that in episode four when they were going to deal with the... Yeah. And what was awesome to me was it was episode four, and you knew that there were nine episodes left after episode four, and they were already going to tackle the trial of Frank Castle. And I was thinking to myself, "Okay, this will be the next three, four episodes." No. So it was one or two episodes in done, and now we're going to deal with Elektra. We're going to deal with the Hand, with the Oncoming War. We're going to get some secrets about Black Sky that we're introducing last season. And speaking of layering. There's so much populated in this season. So they bring Elektra in in episode four, and what that means, and we'll break it down in different ways, but just referring back to the trial of Frank Castle, and the fact that Elektra goes and does what Matt won't do and intimidates the witness and tells the truth. And I'm literally sitting there as a former lawyer going, "Well, in the real world, that doesn't work." Right. And it literally gets thrown out. Yeah. Because you can't... And I love that Matt witnessed that his way does work, in that instance, in her way does not. Right. Elektra, I thought, was again really fucking well done. She was fantastic. And again, a character that's very hard to do because of that area that she exists in being somewhere in the middle. So I spoke earlier, and the reason I did this is the overview referencing the Netflix shows and how they're made, and what our expectations are, because I feel that, look, as you said, you watch episode eight, and now you're just hooked, and the adrenaline's going, and it's far and all the others. Well, Wilson Bisk was like the... It was amazing in first season, and now he's back, and now all these elements are coming together. Right. As we talk, you guys are going to hear that we have a couple quibbles. The quibbles are about some twists happening that seem a little out of nowhere, or a little convenience of things like that. For me, I mean, love of episode four, the whole background of her mad is great, and the whole thing that she's this happy-go-lucky person who has a little bit of a dark edge to her, you know, and it's like she's the devil on Matt's shoulder. And she's trying to bring along. And she's trying to bring a long... Yeah. Yeah, and it's great, and you're totally engaged in that. And then you get to episode eight, and you find out, and stick pops up, and you find out that she was sent, and it was all, you know, it was all played, and she was meant to lead him into that stuff, you know, but he's just morally incorruptible, he's just such a great guy, he's this bastion of hope, you know. Is great, and stick has saved her. And I'm still good with that, because that's a good reveal. And... Yeah, stick saved her from the poison blade, right? Yeah, yeah. I felt that suddenly two episodes later stick trying to kill her, and that seemed really abrupt to me. Yeah, I was going to ask that she said, "Why didn't stick just let her die?" Well, here's the thing, and this is, I think, one of the problems with the Netflix model is these are TV writers, writing it, of course, you know, experienced TV writers, and TV writers are used to writing a certain way where they kind of understand that, you know, you put an episode, even if the next episode takes place right away after, it's a weekend between them. Right. It's three episodes later, people... It's a month. And when you binge watch, you know, you watch them right after the other, the writers still think in terms of how TV's always worked. I feel that it doesn't normally feel a few episodes later, it doesn't feel like it's right after. You know, I... I think this whole thing happens over a span of months. This season, I think, happens over... I mean, obviously, there's a giant leap at the end of episode 13, where you see Matt by himself later, and the cold has come in. The show starts. The show starts in the summer, because you're talking about record heat. It's almost the first thing you hear is how hot it is. But the jump is in episode 13, right now, so it's really quick. I think it's a course of a week or two. Yeah. That's what I'm saying is, you know, stick some... Fine. Look, you could say... Stick some motivation. Yeah. Stick some motivation. Like, how could you justify it in order to avoid that contradiction? Right. I mean, we see the flashback, and the whole thing, and you try to get... Look, it could be as simple as, "Here's his mom where he decided to know it's not going to work." The hands coming now, and I tried, it didn't work, and he turned it on, because that's who he is. And I'm fine. That is a reason. I'm just saying, as Laura said, as you watch it, it seemed a little abrupt, just like two minutes ago, that he saved her, and suddenly he's trying to kill her. And the other issue that I had was a lot of bad ass, absolutely. But I like to admit, it's pretty clear that Matt's the best fighter she's ever seen. Like, as good as she is, Matt's better, and suddenly she's like the end all be all. I think we're not supposed to know, but she's black sky. What the hell is it even? Yeah, the black sky is not, yeah, it's still a lot of questions. Look, she didn't seem really supernatural, she's just a bad ass fighter like he is. She can be supernatural now, now that she's brought back to life. Now that she's being brought back to life, there's the hint that they're starting to work their way towards the Shadowland storyline. Even the whole, I was thinking, Shadowland's all gonna go Shadowland on it, which is a pretty awesome run. But the born-again stuff, when you see Wilson Fisk threatening the shit out of Matt Murdock and saying, "I'm gonna tear your entire life apart." And he's like, "Fine, he has nothing to do with this." He's like, "I'm gonna make him have something to do with this, because I'm gonna ruin your life." That's born-again. That's born-again. That's born-again. And then maybe they work Nuke into it, because he's introducing Jessica Jones. Can we talk about the two very obvious places that Jessica Jones came into this, which was Foggy talking to his pseudo-girlfriend, and then foggy gets a job with Hogarth at the end, which is pretty cool. That's kind of where Foggy goes. There's no more Nelson Murdock. I like that. What those of us that know the comics know, the second we saw Hogarth and Jessica Jones look, "Oh, because Hogarth is ironfish, and ultimately here is higher." And so we're talking about this Shadowland thing, which is kind of a strict Daredevil story, and then you've got this promise of born-again, which is the ultimate Daredevil story with him versus the King, but he could- Actually, back up. Start up with the latter stuff. But could Shadowland be the Defender story? I don't think so. But it's got the ninjas. I know, but it's got ironfish, the ninjas. And look at the pace of which- So this is the first thing. We see how Daredevil ended here, and that's what I was saying before, is I think they're still going to get to- Look, we have Madam Gao in this. We had her in season one. It is. It's pretty clear that the hand of Madam Gao, or these are conflicting parties, Madam Gao, we know, looking at season one, we've said this before- She's probably a great mother. She's the sign of Steel Serpent, you know, it's- It's Conlon. Yeah. I think that they're slowly building up to it, and it's going to blow up with ironfish and lean to defenders that it's going to be Conlon stuff. Right. I don't know how far the defenders go. You think the defenders are going to be Conlon stuff. That's what I think. The Conlon stuff versus- The defenders versus the hand. Yeah, but if it's Conlon versus the hand, could that not be a shadowlands story? Well, it could, but what I'm saying is, we don't know, and I hope that the end of this season with a lecture is going to be resolved at the time, because we get it sooner, but I don't think it is. I think that's going to be- Ironman. Ironman can be the strict- Ironman. Ironfish can be this straight. There's a lot of iron. Ironfish can be the strict introduction to Conlon in, like, the tournament. And that sort of thing can be the tournament storyline, and then we take it into Shadowland for the defenders. I'm just playing here. It could. I'm just playing a little good. I don't think that's where it goes. I think they're going to hold the hand stuff to season three. Can I tell you a secret? Sure. Well, it's not a secret if you watched Kamikaze all year long, which I co-hosted last night on the stream, because one of my guests was our good friend Nobu, Peter Shinnoka. Right. Shinkota. Is he in defenders? No. No, well, defenders isn't really something- That's early. It's very early. Yeah. But Peter, obviously, was Nobu. He was a big secret for this season, because he's been resurrected. You saw him burned alive in Daredevil Season 1. He's back at the instruction, this resurrection idea that brings us back Elektra in the little tease at the end of the season. And so he's talking to me, and we were talking, and he did this on the show. So listen, this is a geekscape exclusive, it's because it's already been out there. We talked about the controversy of casting a white actor for Iron Fist, and he rolled his eyes and said, "Hey man, as an Asian actor growing up and loving Shang-Chi, iron fist is white, and it's okay for this guy to be white because they're casting a Shang-Chi for Iron Fist." Yeah, I knew that. They're going to put Shang-Chi in Iron Fist. It's awesome. Yeah, which only lends me to think, Iron Fist, that storyline, potentially is going to be a tournament. Yeah. You know, great fighters from around the world, maybe you'll have the big sumo dude in this. Well, you know. And then here's no Shang-Chi. Maybe he's a fighter. For me, you know. Iron Fist, you do the fraction run. You do all the cities. Yeah. The Battle of the Cities. It's fucking awesome. Yeah, the immortal cities. So this is Shang-Chi idea that they're going to put him in Iron Fist. Yeah, that's great. Look, the controversy is stupid, because that's the whole point he's an outcast. Right. He's the Guilot. He's, you know, Caucasian. Yeah. White to Wario. You know, it's he's in Kun-Lun and the oh, you're in the south side. Yes. Everyone else should not be Caucasian and he should be. This is not, you know, Last Airbender. Yeah, this is the character. The character is Caucasian when everyone else isn't. Right. In Kun-Lun. Right. So anyone that had an issue with him being Caucasian doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. In Kun-Lun and the whole Iron Fist storyline, let's go back. Could the defenders be Shadowland? No, but what I'm saying here is that they start Kun-Lun in Iron Fist. Absolutely. That's definitely. Yeah. And I think that whatever the bad guy is, whatever Madam Dao's obviously related, you know, it's still serpent. I think since it's already been seeded in Daredevil, that's going to blow up in New York. Right. Where does that leave Luke Cage? What do you think the Luke Cage storyline will be? Because you've seen the casting. You know what characters are trying to be involved in Luke Cage? What kind of storyline do you think that is? It seems pretty separate from the whole Kun-Lun ninja thing. I think it's going to be very separate from that. I think Luke Cage, you know, it could introduce Danny Rand for sure. I'm pretty sure it's not going to, but I think that what Marvel has done well in the MCU and the Netflix shows are part of the MCU, which is great, is everything has its own flavor. Right. You know, Guardians of the Galaxy was their Star Wars, you know, Winter Soldier was their spy movie, you know, First Avenger was their World War II movie. And frankly, Luke Cage is going to be that, you know, very urban African American experience kind of perspective, you know, there's, I mean, there is a genre of cinema, you know, which is, maybe, maybe even, like, even like a exploitation flavor to it. I don't, I didn't, you know what I'm saying, I do, I stayed away from that term for a reason because it was a, but yeah, but there's going to be an aspect of that, you know? What was the run then? So that, remember the run that like, who was it? Was it Malar or somebody? No, it was Ennis. It was Ennis? And Corbin. And Corbin. Yeah. And it was actually horrible for the character. Yes. Yeah. It set it back a few minutes. Yeah. Yeah. They're giving it a bit of attitude. Not quite that far, but, you know, coming off of Jessica Jones, I think, you know, it's, again, there's the definitely going to be that it's the origin. It's not going to start out the hero for hire. I think it's going to get there, you know? But it's, you know, he left, he took off, he's figuring out his life. It's going to be very much of that kind of like, you're right. You are a piece of shit. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, well, look, they introduced into that an aspect that never exists in the comics. Right. You know, and it's pretty rough. So, you know, Luke has stuff to deal with. I wish I think they should have introduced Iron Fist in the show. The fact that they only just cast him, you know, says to me, likely not. Right. Maybe we can get a cameo. I don't think so. Or the same. Or a long. Or a teaser that we got here for Daredevil. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Which is really only a trailer. We could certainly get that out for something. Yeah. But I'm just saying that I don't think there were plans to put Iron Fist in the Luke Cade show. But Luke Cade Hogarth and stuff in there, then you've got a chance. Well, here's the thing. We haven't seen Iron Fist yet, obviously. Right. I suspect Iron Fist will and should start off a lot of it and come on, you know, eventually get to New York. And I think about that, chronologically speaking, Iron Fist should not be in the Luke Cade show. Sure. But Luke should turn up in the Iron Fist show, you know. That's my hope. Right. I would hate for Luke and Danny not to meet until Defender's, because that's not heroes for hire, you know. They should already know each other, you know. Personally, I'm not personally engaged in Iron Fist in New York without Luke Cade, you know. Sure. Iron Fist and the Immortal Cities doing the tournament stuff. Great. That's a fraction run. But there's a reason why the Iron Fist book, you know, died at issue 16 and emerged into the Luke Cade book that at issue 50 and became part of Iron Fist, you know. And suddenly now you have Iron Fist on the street with Luke Cade, you know. There aren't classic runs of Iron Fist alone in New York. Right. What's he gonna do? It's just another guy on the street. Yeah, he's teaching at a dojo, whatever, you know. So speaking of fighting, we all love that one take master that was in season one, episode two. Right. They try it again in episode three or four. End of three. End of three here with that staircase sequence with the dogs of hell. You love it as much as the hallway fight or just endeavor. The hallway fight is, there's nothing like that. Right. So not as much, but I appreciated the artistry of doing something like it again. That was amazing. Pretty damn aggressive. When he takes the chain and he's smashing the bulbs, I'm like, this is awesome. Yeah. Matt's pissed that he's just been chained to a, he's just been chained to a fire escape for the beauty of that is he's blind. He's blind. Yeah. It's great. Good. Let's go down. Yeah. No, I feel like at some point it was like, you know what, we're not going to get away with this as a one take. Like let's forget about hiding the cuts and let's just, let's just keep the fluid. It's just amazing. Yeah. The fluidity of the move. Okay. So, I mean. I mean, the stairs and going down and all that. It was just great. Imagine being that camera guy. Yeah. Like, I know what that's like in carrying those cameras. Like brutal. Brutal. Yeah. It was insane. It maybe went three or four floors and you're sitting there doing this whole fight. Meanwhile, there's a whole dance going on with the elevator. Yeah. Again, like this, I want to go back and see that. I want to go back and watch all that stuff. The Punisher storyline, the carousel, the district attorney, this stuff. Did all that work for you because what I'm needing to know is, I'm leading to the black Smiths. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I want to get that. And, you know, since you mentioned the DA, let's talk about, you know, character introducing Jessica Jones. Like, we have a lot of these things that are through lines. I know some people who, I know someone who only watched Jessica Jones didn't watch Daredevil yet. He didn't even watch Daredevil Season 1 or someone who only watched Daredevil Season 1 and said to me, "Oh, what do I do now?" I was like, "Watch it in order. There's a reason to watch it in order." Yeah. Do you have to? Because even Daredevil Season 2, you don't have to watch season 1. It's better. Absolutely. But all of it stands on its own, which is great and brilliant, but there's a level added to, you know, to watching them in order, you know, those, you know, we call them Easter eggs. But, you know, knowing that this is all coming together and going somewhere is great. It's a great storyline, the whole idea of, you know, from the get-go, the DA's threatening show, we're going to ruin Nelson and Murdock and, you know, listen, you know, you're already going like, "All right, she must be a little bit dirty." Right. You know, it's great, you know, Easter egg-wise, assistant DA Tower, well, DA Tower is a very prominent character in the Daredevil comics over the years, you know? So, you know, he has the future. And I like the way they introduced it. Yeah. But as we start going, we start seeing the discrepancy in her story and then the whole carousel plot, the public story, and then we talked earlier about the fact that she's really looking to steamroll, you know, Frank Castle is saying, "All right, what's the agenda?" Yeah. It's more than just casual politics. Yes. But he did murder a shit ton of people. No, I'm not, as a DA, you probably don't want that person on the streets. That part's fine, but the way she was doing it was a little dirty, you know, which may be unnecessary if you already have a guy who's killed 80 people. Yes. Because it's Clancy Brown. You're like, "Eh, they're not going to have them just for one scene." Yeah, it's not a one-off. That being said, why does he take the stand and defend Frank when maybe his best bet is to put Frank away? Because he was called. He was subpoenaed. He's subpoenaed, but he's missing his hand. He's a character witness. You're still in an opportunity to put away somebody who can, who, if he finds out enough clues, is going to be gunning for you later on. Do you really want to keep Frank out in the streets? Does that make sense? I see your point. Like, like, like, his character who later on is discovered to be the person who was smuggling drugs in Afghanistan. The argument is, since he's laying the stuff on Frank and, you know, that's happening, shouldn't he have just gotten any hate's Frank for having turned him down? Turn him down in the hole and smuggling drugs out of Afghanistan thing. Wouldn't he have seen, had some vested interest in getting Frank into jail instead? Because Frank is a character who smashes and kills enough people to find out what the answers are. Sooner or later, he's going to overturn that stone, which puts him on your doorstep with a gun. I think that, you know, his testimony while on his face, his positive of Frank, he doesn't say Frank can't or wouldn't do those things. He just speaks about what kind of so different was. And he sort of is making that case for, well, Frank's gone through stuff and there's not an argument that he isn't on him. He says it. He actually does say it. He says, this is not the same person. Right. So he's made the case that this was a very well regarded, decorated person who clearly he is and was that. You know, he's now damaged. So the argument is he's making case that this guy doesn't need to be locked up. You know, he, you know, it's not jury nullification, which is the idea that, yeah, what he did isn't wrong. Even if it's wrong on the face of the law, the argument to, to a jury that, but it's morally right. So you could find him not guilty, even though on his face, he did what he said, and you get into issues of legality and to judge him throughout that verdict. But the point is, that's not what's going on in that testimony. Right. So this was a great guy who's now, you know, not that person anymore. So it isn't necessarily so fair. As the two story lands progress and electric comes into it, with stick comes into it, and you find out more about the war and you start working away towards the resurrection of Nobu, the hand coming after black sky, which is electric, yeah, then you've got black sky, black Smith, and there's the whole Karen Page, suddenly he's, she's a journalist. So you haven't met him? How do you feel about that? I didn't hate it. I love, you don't want any time she's on screen, I'm in love with her. Yeah. But some people, and one of our friends in particular felt that, okay, why do that when you could have just kept, you know, Ben Yorick, but, you know, I think there's an argument to be made that in season one, clearly she's interested in this stuff. Yes. So, you know, I mean, that's the question, I found myself wondering, I was like, did... That's why I'm arguing this takes place over two, three weeks, or two weeks or so, you know what I mean? 'Cause there's time for her to do those things, you know what I mean? It's fairly quick, the trial happens pretty quickly, you know, the reality is trial shouldn't happen that quickly. No. It should be months and months. Right. You know, it's a little unclear. You know, it did seem that... I'm letting the blurred edges allow me to give Karen some time to get more into the journalistic practice. Yeah. I mean, as I said, I was having a conversation with a friend of ours and, you know, he just felt, look, it was like, oh, they didn't know what to do, but not having been New York, so they had heard do that. But I was like, I don't agree with that. I actually think they may have killed Ben York with an eye towards, 'cause we're already developing Karen this way, you know. I don't know. I don't, you know, I find it hard to believe that things like that weren't necessarily planned from the get-go, you know. I think, for instance, maybe they weren't originally in Phil Ben York, but he was meant to be her mentor. But I think she was always meant in their minds to go to that place, because that's why she was interacting with him so much in season one. And again, it comes back to like, you've got the Elektra storyline drawing Matt into that world. You've got the Frank Castle blacksmith storyline drawing Karen into that world. And you've very much had all of that. And everything. I mean, it starts to seem like those stories aren't supporting each other at that point, and you've got two separate stories going on. No, but that's just it. It's perfect because the bear devil, it's perfect that the fact that both those things are happening and Matt can't give his attention to both, it creates that conflict, whereas and some people are going like, "Oh, is it going to be that Iron Man 2 syndrome of too much going on?" But no, that's actually what's perfect about it, 'cause the show's, you know, he's trying to have a life and be a lawyer, and he's trying to be, you know, this... And also boyfriend. And a boyfriend. And a boyfriend. And all those things. And even that, you have the romantic films for Elektra, and the romantic films for Karen Page, and this is this tug happening, you know, in him, which is, frankly, the best example of that dynamic in a superhero film, television, anything, ever. You know, there's always, I mean, Spider-Man's the perfect example of the character that, in the comics, that could never, is personalized to mess, because the superhero always gets him away. But you know, you've never seen it at the same level, and here you have it, that Matt can't do it all. He can't be there. He can't get it done. You know? He can't work on, you know, on, you know, on opening arguments when he's off fighting ninjas. You know? You can't do it. If only we had somebody. If only we had those problems. Right. But, you know... You might have those problems. Well, you know, there's just only so many hours in the day, and all that, and it's great. And because ninjas are resurrecting themselves, it's just, it'll never end. Right. But, you know, but Elektra and Stick are going like, "There's a war on. What are you doing with this?" What are you doing with the... Oh, you want to... It's not about the city. It's not about this. Yeah. It's about the whole world. Yeah. And by the way, and that's an interesting argument, and that goes to the comics. Yeah. I mean, going back to the chase we're introduced in Daredevil 187, and then, you know, you get to 190, and suddenly he's fighting the war for a bit, and I actually always felt like I was a little, like, "All right, Stick Train with it," and he's not doing this. Yeah. Like, he's important. Like, this is like the whole world. You're not doing this. Right. But, you know, prior to Bendis' run on Spider-Man the last ten years, you know, the idea was always that Spider-Man was just the street level, you know, and not dealing with the world ending events. Once in a while we did, you know, and Daredevil 2, the only reason he was also became an Avenger. You know, like their street level, you know. And Charlie Cox has said that he would like to be drafted into the movies as some of their contracts, like stipulating you. Well, if we want you in the movies, you got to come do the movies. I'm looking forward to Civil War. Well, Civil War, I mean, I don't know if there's a Daredevil came here, but we've got this Infinity War 1 and 2 coming afterwards. But the point is that I think, and I said this a while ago, that, you know, one thing's like of an agency's shield is how much it carries over and stuff from the movies. Sure. We have, like, another five or six apples of agency's shield this season after the Civil War comes out. I don't think Civil War gets resolved in the movie. I think that by the end of that movie, you're going to have a super-human registration act and if it's a shield, they're going to have to be enforcing it. You know, the Inhumans thing is going to get up to a level. The Inhumans thing and then also whatever the relationships are politically in Black Panther. Right. Right. I think that whatever that is, that affects the Netflix shows. So at some point, I think it's a very easy way to have Daredevil affected. And as you said, I think Infinity War, it takes things to a different level. But here's the thing. What does Daredevil bring to Infinity War? You can put a gauntlet on. He can put a gauntlet on. Like, he's got a hand. The point is that, you know, all I expect or hope for is give me a cameo of him fighting someone in the corner. Right. And then in the New York, you know, you want to see that Daredevil is there beating up some Chitauri. Right. You know, if that were to happen again. It was prior to Daredevil, though. It was. I was saying, so I said if that were to happen again. Right. You know, like, you know, I would have liked to have seen Spider-Man show up then, we'll get him now, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So one thing I wanted to talk about was, I thought this, I mean, just the visuals in this sequence are pretty awesome. The hand attack in the hospital. That's great. I love about it. It allows Claire Temple to finally be the night nurse. She finally leaves the hospital. Well, one second. It's like, I'm going to be there. You jumped ahead, talking about the hospital. How dare you? How did you feel about the punishment of shooting up the hospital? Okay. So Laura was like, my wife was like, he's never, he's never going to start shooting up the hospital with all those innocents around. And he's shooting towards Karen and that one guy and, and. I think it was that my own six where he addressed that. He did. I told Karen that I'm an expert sniper. Yeah. I wasn't aiming at you, but I mean, I was defending Frank right there saying, listen, if Karen's helping this bad guy escape, he's going to shoot her because she's an accomplice. But it's not about that. It's a couple. I do get that. And there was a point where she was shot at. He was also using a shotgun. Yeah. So it's not really like an accuracy. Exactly. It's an accuracy. And more to the point, you could say he didn't shoot anywhere in there, but he's walking into a hospital and shooting it up. Do you know how many innocent people could die or whatever? Just because the hospital has disrupted it. Sure. When you shoot up a hospital, you know, and think that, you know, you're a good guy. He's a scumbag. He's a scumbag who killed my family. I'm saying, like, you know, like, all right, that's what the guy is, but there was another way to do it. But, you know, I mean, fine. You can argue, well, it's intimidation and then you get the word out. There's no escaping the Punisher. That's the argument. But that did bother me a bit. I was a little bit scratching my head about it. As we said earlier, there are going to be some quibbles as we talk. Yeah. That was definitely a sequence I was scratching my head at. And I'm glad they did address it later on when he's telling Karen, like, I'm an expert marketing. But the address that he was never going to kill her? But it was dude. It was a shock. It's a shock gun. Yeah. It's a shock gun and you just shot up a hospital and you're affected other people. That's kind of fucked up. That being said, when ninjas attacked the hospital, when you see all of them scaling the walls and then you see Claire kill somebody and you see one of Claire's friends die and then you see an overall cover-up come down over the hospital. I don't know if that was really resolved beyond this is an HR question or this is a public question, but there seems to be a cover-up that did not involve the DA's office, simply involved the City of New York and involved Claire Temple and Claire says, screw it. I'm down. I'm going to be helping these superheroes from a different place because I'm now going to become the night nurse as we know in the comics. This is what we want to think. One of the problems in the comics, it's not ever addressed, you know, night nurse exists. Who's funding her? Right. But yeah, I think they're organically going there and I think it's great. I mean, I would love to see them actually develop that she has a little side business among, you know, as it gets a little more prevalent. She knows Shezka, she knows Luke, she knows Matt and somehow there's some funding where she actually is surviving. Mr. Rand comes in. No, no. I love the way they treated her. This whole idea that the hospital was- But by the way, let me see on that note, is not as much currently in the comics, but classically in the comics, the idea was whether it was the one where Shezka, Tony Stark bank rolled the Avengers. Right. That was the idea. Right now, it's Daredevil. I mean, sorry, it's Deadpool. Right. But regardless, there's someone going, okay, someone needs to pay for this shit and I'll do it, you know? Well, you've got this cover up that happens with the hospital and it's, is it because they'll never believe that ninjas were resurrected and came and attacked them? Is it the hospital covering its own ass because these, because these possessed what kid weapons were never really checked in? Is it that or is there something else going on that could lend itself to like a storyline maybe that we see in Luke Cage or later on? I didn't feel it was anything more insidious than- Does the city have a cancer? No, I didn't think, I didn't think it was anything so insidious. I think it was a simple bureaucratic. No one's going to believe this. We can get sued. We just got to hush it. Right. You know, that's just- And Claire, and Claire's going to pack her bags and become the Niners proper. Yeah. She, she's had it. She's out. But speaking of people who are part of the support network, maybe my favorite character in the series, Melvin Potter. It was great. Dude, I- Dead on. I love it. And I love how he's just like- But he wouldn't like that. Right. And finally, he puts two- he does two things. He finally gives Daredevil his weapon. Which is awesome. Well first, he redesigns- And he redesigns the- Oh, he redesigns the Cal. Oh, he redesigns the Cal. He gets elected something. He gives the Electra a bit more of a costume. Right. Dude. The Villa Club, my favorite line. Where's the line? Okay. Over, over under on how many electrodes we're going to see at Comic Con this year. Oh. This can be so- I mean, remember how many Daredevils we saw last year with the pantyhose? Yeah. Like, now we've got the Electra and all you need is jeans, a red and black thing, and your Electra. Uh, we're going to see a lot of Electras, dude. I think we are. Are you complaining? No, I'm not. So, uh, yeah, we get- Electra has a bit more of a costume, uh, and then we've got Daredevil. He finally gets his proper Billy Club and it's fucking awesome. So awesome. Um, and I just needed to state that I love Melvin Potter because- It was great. I hope he- I hope he really never becomes a gladiator. Yeah. I don't want that to fight. Yeah, I don't want that. Like, I love him. Yeah. And I love the fact that he works a little bit for the bad guys, a little bit for the good guys. Well, he's not doing that for them anymore. He did. He did. No. It's great that, you know, you know it. It's an Easter egg. Look. If Melvin loses it at some point and if he- it's not- it shouldn't be a season arc. It should be like a one or two off. Like, he loses it. Goes a little crazy. And Matt reigns the bad guy. Remember that? Remember his character, that actor's character in Dexter where he's like the bull guy? And I'm like, oh, that's kind of like the gladiator. Okay, that's enough. Now in Daredevil, he should just be this proper guy who's just trying to get by by making armor and weapons for bad guys. If you need to see his crazy gladiator character, just go watch his arc and dare to index her. Yeah. No. Look, it's great. I loved it. We talked a bit about stick turning on Elektra. You know, before we even get to that, you know, you have that great moment where Elektra chooses Matt and Matt chooses her and sort of like, hey, remember how everything was great with Karen? Yeah. So it just threw Karen out. Yeah. You know, it's all in. But then a minute later, Elektra kills the- oh, look, he's so young as a kid, you know, who would have just killed everybody, you know, and suddenly Elektra, oh, you're out of here. That was a zombie. Yeah. The kid is also a walking resurrected corpse. Exactly. Right. So it's sort of like, seriously? Yeah. You know, so I mean, Matt's fickle as fuck. Well, here's the thing. So remember when Elektra brings, like, Matt arguably back to life? She leaves them on the floor. She doesn't put them in the bed. She leaves them on the floor. And when they brought Elektra back to life with Stick Sager, she goes to the couch and then it takes, like, bring her to the bed. I was like, why don't you guys just put her in the bed? When you brought her in, just put her in the bed and put her in the couch. That being said, she left Matt's ass on the floor, man. That's cold. Okay. Anyway, my point being that, look, it's actually consistent in the comics. Matt, it's a little back and forth and it's absolute. What I'm talking about right now is actually not a criticism of the show because even when Matt and Karen's like getting into the argument of Punisher, suddenly everything cools off. There they are. You think they were about to do it and suddenly it's like, yeah, you've got to go now. Yeah. Karen is on Frank's side. Yeah. Well, for Matt, Matt's pretty grossed out by it. Yeah. I loved that. Yeah. I loved that. Maybe we should get to high food next week because this is not, it's cold. Yeah. Because you pretty much told me that my whole reason for living and my life philosophy wrong and I don't even know you right now because if I believe that you believe that I wouldn't even know you, I'd be out telling you all about it. When I love that Karen has to believe it because she's trying to justify something in her past that we still don't quite know but we get a little bit of in that folder that Ben Yorick had put together. We got a little and, we get a little bit that maybe she was responsible for a friend's death. Friend or her brother? Her brother. It was, it was a team and maybe this, maybe it's that part of that substance abuse past but also there's that. That's the thing. Also, there's something that she's dealing with the whole time which is the killing of Wesley. Yeah. Like she kills Wesley. In season one, in season two there's a couple of moments where there's always an implication that she's partied a lot harder and she's a naughty girl, you know, and when we talk about born again, you know, I wanted, particularly if it's season one, I wanted to go like, all right, she has a drug past because for me, season three, she'd be the flare up of their relationship and it should have been they were involved or she's that emotionally involved at least which is clearly the case. She can't deal with it and she goes on her bender, goes off, you know, as if they're the heroine and gives up the ID, you know? I don't know that we're going to get a version of that. You definitely see her in this season struggling with like the murder of Wesley and she's trying to justify it for herself. And I think it's the murder of Wesley that that's what makes her identify with the punishment. And it's awesome. Yeah. I love that they dovetailed that. Yes. I liked her in this season and I thought Foggy was, I thought his character was way more interesting the way that, and you know what, it happened in the parts where if you're watching this for the action, if you're watching this for the Sea Double Daredevil, you may not actually like the courtroom sequences but that is where Foggy's shined and I thought those sequences were awesome because it really gave Foggy a lot to do it to find him other than that. And I'll tell you. And it moved the plot a lot. As much as he's going down and stuff where I lost, then that statement that yeah you lost but you did really well, you were always going to lose that. Right. So that's great because those are skills. So I buy that he can be appreciated for that. Did the resurrection of Nobu or Nobu as like the final bad, did that work for you? Like at the end of it though, like the last scene is him fighting ninjas on a roofed off. Well so here's the thing, you know, going into that, I mean I knew Frank was showing up and for all the build up of oh it's just the two of us we're going to kill so we're going to, or when's Frank coming? And then they go to the roof, I was like, in that moment I went oh well clearly Frank's showing up as a sniper because that's what he is, you know. Right. As bad as it was. Can you see the police radio? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So there's aspects of that that I had some issues with. You had commented and I laughed at the whole notion that the electric gets stabbed. Yeah, they took the bull that I move and they gave it to Nobu. Well let's talk about a couple of things there as we break this down. You know, there's aspects, what they did very well at the source material is they combined a lot of stuff. You know, even the whole thing about her going to kill Stik, when it came down to that moment of her choosing, definitely had elements and Daredevil 181 with the flashback stuff of how, you know, in the comics, a lecture originally was with the chase and she decides because she doesn't make the wall climb. So they reference the wall on the shell and the wall in the comics is, it's somewhat unclear is it a literal wall or is it a metaphorical wall? Right. Okay. But the idea is that her inability to climb that wall is either symbolically or literally demonstrative of her not being ready and pure enough to be a member of the chase. So she's thrown out and she decides she's going to prove herself by infiltrating the hand and she's really this double agent and little does she know that she's thrown into a pit, you know, and she has to fight someone and she kills this person and turns out it's her original, you know, her sunset, this wonderful, clean person. And in that moment and Stik can wander, it's like they're going to find a way to turn you, you know, to make you bad and then they have her. And when we met a lecture, she'd already left the hand because she'd been badass with them and decided to go off on her own. But this is the moment of the darkness and the soul which has happened years before. So on the show here, she hasn't been with the hand, she's been with the chase, but suddenly now we find out she's destined to be with the hand and she's literally seeming to choose it. And we have this moment where she chooses and she chooses Matt, which is interesting. It's an interesting thing for her to do, but I thought there was an element to, as I was watching it, I was thinking, if she kills Stik, that's her moment. That is definitely that shade of that moment and narrative 181. So she chooses not to do it great, she's with Matt, but ultimately the way the story went and again, she chooses to sacrifice herself with Matt, this is that moment of redemption. But the hand get her anyway. The way the comics speak of it, they've had this thing with the hand resurrects someone and literally anyone the hand resurrects is body and soul theirs. So there was actually a point where Wolverine is killed in the comics and the hand bring him back and there's a story arc where Wolverine and me, the state, Wolverine's killing like everybody because he's completely bad because the hand now has his soul. Who was it? Who wrote that? Who wrote it? That wrote it. It was Mark Willard? Was it? Was it Aaron? No, I think it was Willard. He made it. Miller actually is how you pronounce it. Really? Yeah. Wow. Miller. The Scottish Miller. Yeah. They are. Sorry about that, Mark. But I'm sorry. I love it because John Romita Jr. was the artist. Yeah. I was fucking awesome. He was the artist. He takes down like a shield of healthcare. So anyway, the point is that they found a way to get to this place but taking elements of that and maybe, so seemingly obviously now she's going to be truly be with the hand. But your comment to me, your question was, "Hey, it's really nice that they are there and everyone waiting and let Matt mourn there for a second. You know, the hand just stood around." Which again, there's elements of that mourning. It's sort of iconic of him mourning for her when she dies, you know, in the comics. Yeah. When nobody does the bullseye on her. Yeah. Like it's like, "Okay. We're just going to let this guy cry." But I felt that it was sort of like, they say at the beginning of the episode they had that chamber just in case. Right. Like, it seemed to me like the whole idea was either she's going to choose to be with us or she has to be killed to then be put in the chamber to end up with us. Right. There's nobody's plan. But I don't know that all of the other ninjas know that and they're told she's the black guy and they all instantly know they follow or whatever she says. So it's like, are they in shock? I mean, I think there's some elements to why the fact that they're also mourning their idea or whatever it is. Yeah. Or it might have been as simple as, "Well, it's supposed to happen, so it's fine." Right. You know, it's not like they feel threatened by him alone there, you know, then French take, you know, shooting them on whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's tricky. Here's something Peter told me about Stik killing him at the end of the episode, you know, Stik finds him in the alley. Love it. You think Nobu's going to wake back up? Yeah. Come back to life because he's this, now he's immortal. Slice him in half. And he cuts him in half. And he cuts the head off and he says, "What's the word?" He goes, "Now you stay down, you son of a bitch." Not the original line. No. Peter said that up like five hours before that scene was shot. The line was, "Now you stay dead, you son of a bitch." Now you stay dead is a big difference between, "Now you stay down." Yeah. The implication is, he's only going to stay down. He can still maybe get up again. But it's going to take some sewing. He's got to put a fucking head off. You got to put his head back on. I see your point. I thought it was cool. Yeah. And I think Peter was like, "Hey, maybe, maybe he's come back from more, he's come back from getting burned alive." Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I did too. I did too. You know, in the comics, I think the idea was that you're going to take the different parts of the body, get to burn them and the whole thing, you know, get to really get rid of that body. Well, they already burned them. Yeah. The pit? Like, what's the story there? Like, why are they building a PS pit? Well, as I said, you know, Shadowland was the underground thing. So that's what it reminded me of, you know, so I know that you were thinking that. Yeah. So maybe. It could be that simple. So by the way, with the pit being there, you know, episode 13, I literally at first thought they were doing Shadowland on the ready. Yeah. I felt like... I really thought that's what they were going to do. I like the idea of them doing Shadowland once Wilson is out. Right. Right. Because Shadowland, for those of you who haven't read it, is a couple of different forces in the underworld vying for control of this basically like a ninja temple that they've built in the heart of a ruined plot. Well, ultimately the whole thing is that Kingpin out of jail takes over the hand. He's the head of the hand. And then... He builds like a temple in the middle of Hell's Kitchen and runs basically a siege-like neighborhood of Hell's Kitchen where there's a curfew. You can't be on the streets and fuck the police or the government. We're keeping everybody out. This is our own nation in the middle of Manhattan. But then it goes even further because Daredevil decides to get involved. He takes out Fisk and he says, you know what, screw it because now they're all like, you're our leader now and he embraces it. And he starts getting... It involves Spider-Man. It involves Punisher. But that bulldog. He starts getting corrupted by the mysticism of the hand and embracing it. So yeah. See, we'll see where the Shadowland things, or this Shadowland lands. All right. We pretty much... We touched a lot of subjects. You know, we didn't touch. Go for it. That's seen in episode nine with Frank in jail. Okay. Okay. So... So... So... The gala was awesome. It was awesome. The Frank Wilson-Fisk conversation that did come out of the Jason Aaron Punisher run was incredible. Yes. Where Wilson Fisko's The Rising Tide floats all ships. I was like, damn, this sucks, man. He's got Frank. He knows exactly what to dangle in front of Frank's to get Frank to jump. And Frank jumps, kills the jail rival. But I love after he said, but next time I see you. I'm going to kill you. Yeah. And Wilson set him up. Wilson fully intends for him to die in that hallway. Right. Right. You know? And that... Let me tell you something. That scene, because you don't look. And true to the comics, they do a lot of the gymnastics that they're doing all that. That scene, I mean, I literally finished watching that scene and instantly went and messaged one of my instructors go like, you have to watch this. Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. But it was, you know... It was on the ground. And it was rough. As we know, you know, I do "Crow McGaugh." I mean, it was just... Magoo. Just so real. So visceral. It was just... And he's like shiving people. He's shiving people. Yeah. He's shiving the crap out of people. Yeah. He's getting hit. He's just going. And it was just... Yeah. Nothing fancy about it. It was just doing whatever he had to do. It was awesome. It was awesome. And at the end, he's just laying there amongst all these bodies. Yeah. Cover it in black. Like he was painted. Really? Yeah. And it's just amazing. Dude, you just totally cleared this entire cell block. We don't need the electric chair anymore. We just need to put you on death row with all these criminals and open the gates. Yeah. Yeah. Which by the way, also in Daredevil 181, in that issue, Punisher is in jail and he's loving it. Yeah. And like he has like, you know... Like so many people... And that's happened a few times. Like yeah, that's happened on the raft. That's happened a few times in the Marvel Universe. Yeah. When you throw the Punisher in jail. And that's when it's great because in that issue, he actually goes to Bullseye and pretty much taunts him. He's like, "What are you doing?" He's like, "Well, you know, yeah. I want you to go get killed." Yeah. You know? Like maybe he'll die or I'll kill you. Right. You know? It's just... It's great. So where do you think... Okay. So we know how to send it. Nelson Merlock is no more... And by the way, Punisher is perfectly set up and someone said to me, "Do you want a Punisher show now?" And my answer is... Hell yeah. I do. And I want it done right. But you know, my feeling is, I don't want them to do shows just to do shows. Yes. Doing a Punisher show where they maybe do jigsaw just to do it, like, "Come on." We got the micro tape. Yes. You know? Yes. It's set up. Yes. We've already done some of the NS stuff. And there's a couple of the things in the NS... The original NS run, the original Maxiseries, we're done in the Thomas Jame movie. But you know what? Just do it again. Just do it. Do it. Honestly. Look at that. Just do it. Yeah. So cool. Was it like the Italian Grandma? Yeah. Exactly. Do all that weird stuff. Awesome. Do the fight in the zoo. Yeah. Oh my God. I just got fun with it, man. Yeah. I mean, do that. It's awesome. That'd be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm down with that. The NS... Yeah. Steve Dillon artwork. Yeah. Go the full nine yards 'cause... And someone said that you look at Brentful looks like Steve Dillon drew him. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You would like... I would like a Punisher series maybe... It's gonna happen. Yeah. It's gonna happen. But does it mean to be 13? Who knows? Maybe it does. But that would be a great place to start is doing that first Garth in this. And Steve Dillon run. And then... And Lodi Young is great. I think we have to get the rest of the lecture story probably in Daredevil. Right. But... All series are really cool. Yeah. See? Yeah. If it was Femme Nikita like espionage stuff. Yeah. But here's the other thing. And I'm not really sure about this. But it's something I found myself questioning. I'm not really sure about Netflix and what their model is. Because you know, typically in television, you know, network television, a studio makes a show, they sell it to a network. And the economics of that are that they lose money on the first few years to look at the syndication thing and all that. Right. But Netflix is a different animal. You know, Netflix is about their creating content to just entice their subscribers. And that's really all that it's about. I mean, yeah, there may be some ancillary sales later, but it's not really about that because the ancillary is for that. Right. You know, I feel like Netflix is fine, like, like, defenders is something that wouldn't be done elsewhere. Right. It's not meant to be an ongoing series. It's a special event thing. You know, I like the idea of, you know, punish your electorate. They don't have to be on for seven years if not necessary the goal of it. And they can always appear in the other shows. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, but bold actors were so good and so came to life and so good and so interesting. You know, ultimately, a lecture store is not there yet. Ultimately, a lecture needs to be pulled into the hand and then leave it and go off on their own. You know? I mean, I don't think we're going to get a version of things where a lecture is going to go back to town and be the king prince assassin. Or a sex. Yeah. A lecture assassin. No, but I would be interested in a lecture assassin as. It's own thing. Yes. It's own thing. Yeah. Where do things go with the character? Was there a little from here? That's just it. Like, we have a set up to see what the end result is of the Karen page thing. Right. But, really, that's the cliffhanger. He doesn't have Nelson and Murdoch. He's told Karen and what's up with a lecture, you know, she's getting resurrected with the hand. I think all that is season three, more or less. I mean, we'll get, I think we get hints of that in defenders. Right. You know? So. Fenders is going to come before Daredevil. Yeah. That's what you see. Yes. Ian. This is awesome. Yeah. I think the audience is like, dude, we just got it. Dude, the fact that you're referencing issues single handedly, like the actual issues is what makes people want these episodes. And, you know what, I think we said pretty much what we wanted to say about Jessica Jones as well. See you guys. Yeah. We touched upon it. Are we going to do Batman vs Superman? Are we going to do Captain America 3? Like, where do we want to land these? Why is it war? They're like five, six weeks apart. Oh, my God. I'm so busy and you're so busy. This is hard to do. And then I got Carson Bratton fucking tweeting us, yelling at us. Guys, guys, I always say, I'll find a way. I mean, it's hard to find something to work around. It's really hard. And you go to sleep really early. Yes. And you wake up very late. We have about six working hours where we're both awake. We're like Lady Hawk. So we have like six, seven hours where we can actually function. We're both working our asses off during those hours. It's true. It's true. So. But look, I'd love to discuss Batman vs Superman with you. Yeah. And we're going to go see it tomorrow. We're going to see it tomorrow. I'd love to do it. Well, I think this episode is going up on Thursday, so we're going to see it. And then we're going to talk. But, you know, I'm sure we, you know, obviously we should do it right away. So if we can figure out of the weekend and do it, you know, look, I'll tell you right now. WonderCon is this weekend. That's true. WonderCon is this weekend. There's a few things. But, you know what? Maybe we're going to have to go into a corner at WonderCon and just hit the episode. You know what? You know what? You just told me. Well, honestly, on the way back from WonderCon, you could stop and we could do it. I got fresh batteries for the Zoom. Maybe I'll bring the Zoom to WonderCon and maybe talk to some creators. Geekscapes, thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed Daredevil Season 2. I hope you watched it before listening to this. And if not, we just totally spoiled the whole thing for you. Keep listening. Keep subscribing to this feed. Tell your friends about this feed and give us, like, five stars on one of our podcatchers you guys listen to this on because it really does help us when you guys review our podcast and share it with your friends. And of course, because we're going into convention season, if you see any people who you want to have on the regular Geekscapes show, go up and talk to them and say, "Hey, have you heard of Geekscape?" I listen to it. It's my favorite podcast. You should be a guest if you're ever in L.A. I'd love to have them. 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