We're driven by this search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search "match" with Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Ditch the busy work, use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. Enaging over 140 million qualifications and preferences every day, Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences, so the more you use Indeed, the better it gets. Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great, talent fast. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/bluewire. Just go to indeed.com/bluewire right now and support our show by saying that you heard about Indeed on this podcast, that's indeed.com/bluewire, terms and conditions applied. And to hire, you need Indeed. Yeah. We're excited to do this. We've been meaning to do this for a while. We actually planned like a year and a half ago to get Sal on the show. We were going to do like a little fun giant's all-time draft, which just never came together. So it's fun that we got this chance of collab, and I am going for making a run here at the worst lighting ever in the history of a show, though I will say it probably won't surpass. Remember Nick the Vegas episode when we were recording when I was in Vegas like a year or two ago? And someone was like, "It looked like you're in the Witness Protection Program based on the editing, and it's bright day out in Vegas that day. I don't really know what happened, but just a weird angle, just like this, I will fix the lighting at some point, but for today, we're going to have to deal with this version of the lighting." I'm expecting somebody to walk in in the background and be like, "What are you hiding in the closet, Dan?" What's in there? What you got going on? So for the big blue banter listeners, Monty and South, you guys do not know if you're not on Giant's Twitter. They host a podcast called He's a Giant and it's draft oriented, and they basically dive deep into a lot of the prospects in the NFL and how that player can fit on the New York Giants. They do an excellent job. It's a newer podcast, but I encourage everyone to go check them out. Thank you, Matt. You always come to us and say, "Where's your draft content? What's going on?" And we're always like, "Don't expect it anytime soon until maybe February or the earliest." Most likely, even the month they have to have enough, typically February. So if you need it earlier, but you want it, go to these guys. They got you covered. Both Monty and South, they're both really good at what they do. You should check them out because they go deep. They go really deep on these prospects, and I feel like it's good to get a feel for them this early because then you can actually watch on Saturday and know what you're looking for. Yeah. No, I mean, when we came up with the idea for the potty, just because we both love college football so much, we were like, "You know what, let's just talk about it as it's happening in real time. It would be kind of fun to see how these players play out." You know, as you'll see, we'll do the early position groups and we're often way off on the players because by the time the season ends, it's completely flipped over. But our first episode last year, our first episode, our pilot was wide receivers. And the guy that I think I jinxed us because I really wanted to quarterback. But I remember saying like, you know, the guy I can really see being a giant here is Malik neighbors. Wow. He's the prototype. He's the prototype. I remember Monty and I were saying like, "Are we so sure he's not going to end up the best wide receiver in this group at the end of his career?" And we were like, "Yeah, we can see it." So that one played out, but thank you guys for having us. We got an idea for those who are paying attention and listening to kind of do a crossover that tried to combine some of the stuff that these guys do on Big Blue banter or what we do and he's a giant. We're going to go through some cool like pre-season scouting looking for what can help the giants. And we're going to tap into Dan and Nick's expertise and then Monty will try to help out from there from what we do. But Dan, like to steal your quote, we want to talk some 30,000 foot view stuff. So we wanted to hear your guys' thoughts. I don't think you actually set it exactly yet. Where are you with this organization that right now, this organization, this season, what's your 30,000 view? What to expect and where we are? I could take it first, Dan. So I think the New York Giants are in a position where it's all going to come down to the quarterback right now, right? There were these investments in the offensive line. We've heard this story. How many times have we received this script, ladies and gentlemen, right? Oh, we've invested in the offensive line. Here we go. We drafted this top 10 guy and then it usually doesn't end up materializing. I think I remain optimistic about the offensive line right now. I think the offensive line situation last year, it was just a tire fire because Andrew Thomas got injured on that first drive. I think that was a huge deal and the Giants entered the season with a lack of depth on their offensive line and they had a bunch of young players that they were going to give a chance to. And then when Andrew Thomas got hurt, that kicked Josh Azoudo out to left tackle and then he had Marcus McKeth in and it was just, there wasn't enough depth. And I think if you look at what Joe Shane did this off season, they were able to replenish that depth up front with John Runyon, Jermaine Lumanor, Aaron Staney, Schlotman, if you want to throw him in there as well. So I think the offensive line situation should be better. I do believe though, it's all going to come down to the quarterback and Daniel Jones, look, he has his limitations. He's going to need his time to throw the football. Malik neighbors are going to be the focal point. You don't have 26 anymore. If I'm going to go 30,000 foot view, I think the NFC is weak. I do. And I think the Giants have an opportunity to compete if things go their way a lot a 2022. I think a lot of that will be contingent on what they can do passing the football and how Shane Bowen's defense holds up. And I'm just hoping that the New York Giants offense can be competitive enough to allow the defense to get into some third and six situations in the second half to allow their, what I think could be the strength of this team, the pass rush to thrive and flourish. Because that's something that we did not get to see last year. I can see the Giants winning six games, but I wouldn't be shocked at winning nine too, if all things break well for them and it really just comes down to Daniel Jones. And that's a freaking question mark of the New York Giants since he arrived here in 2019. Yeah, it's interesting from where I'm at with the 30,000 foot view, because I think about it like there was a point in time when the Giants made the decision to trade for and then signed to a massive extension, Brian Burns, I felt like that signified a changing in the guard. I felt like that meant, look, we're allocating that much of our salary cap space to this defensive player. And it means we're looking ahead and we're going to get out of the 40 million we're allocating to the quarterback. I'm not so sure about that anymore, just from watching a little bit of hard knocks and just from kind of putting two and two together, it kind of sounds to me like they believe they can compete right now with Daniel Jones at the quarterback. So at this point to me, it depends on how can they make this offense quarterback proof. And there's been plenty of offense in the NFL that actually have been pretty quarterback proof. I would consider the dolphins offense to be pretty quarterback proof. I do respect what Tua does. I think he throws an anticipation really well, a ball placement really well. But I think he has limitations as a quarterback to Nick just mentioned Daniel Jones's limitations to the quarterback. I think to a two has clear cut on tape. You can watch it when he gets to the cold or not even just the cold. Some seems that give him trouble limitation on tape, but that system has done a really good job. I'm pretty, I like more than consensus, a lot more than consensus, but in a lot of ways that system regardless of who's quarterback is quarterback proof. We saw Jimmy G who I think is one of the, to me, one of the worst quarterbacks that I've seen in the NFL be pretty good in that system and just horrific elsewhere. I guess he had at least little decent stint with the Patriots, but for the most part, those are two systems that have been quarterback proof. I don't want to say because I love CJ Shout, but I think that system really accentuated who he was as a quarterback as well. And we'll see, but I think Kevin O'Connell is in the mix as well for this in Minnesota because look, you bring in Nick Mullins and he's thrown for 350 a game, 400 a game. Giants quarterbacks don't even sniff 250 a game most game for the last five years. It's a sad truth. Like last year, Tyrod Taylor went 270 and 270 and back to back games. It was the first time the Giants quarterback is thrown for 270 plus and back to back games is 2019. That's been five years. So we're talking about a system of Kevin O'Connell. It's getting passing production. So I'm hoping that this is the year we finally see Brian Deble at his best, calling the plays and making this system. And again, it depends on what Nick says. One can neighbors hit the ground running. That's the key part. And two, then the offensive line do their part, but those two things can happen. I'm hoping that what Shane visions, which is a quarterback friendly, a quarterback proof system can finally take place and take mold. And then, you know, like Nick said, honestly, I do agree with him. I don't think the NFC is very tough. Like I look at the teams I'm worried about are San Fran, Green Bay to an extent because I do like Jordan love, Chicago's now in that mix for me. I'm not that worried about Dallas the way they're trending. Eagles, I'm worried about, but I'm not as high on hurts. I don't think as others are to be completely honest about the situation. And you got some older teams like the Falcons who are playing to win now, Rams obviously is similar situation with Stafford and Ryan there. So it kind of depends to me, can Deble really take the system to the level that we've been promised, he will. And we've seen glimpses of it on date, Nick and I, we've seen great combos, routes, things like that. But it hasn't really shown up in the production standpoint from a passing standpoint yet. Yeah, you know, I think it's a good point. And you know, something a sound I've talked about, we've tried to like talk about like, what's the plan here at quarterback? What's like the way that this team is moving forward? And kind of what you're saying, it feels like the plan at this point is just like there is no clear answer at quarterback, so they're trying to build the best possible team they can. Yeah. And they, without a clear, you know, future, you know, if they were able to get Drake May, that would have changed things, but they couldn't. So now they're just like, all right, we're going to build a roster that's so strong that can carry us without having a true answer at quarterback. I don't necessarily think they've totally given up on Daniel Jones, you know, that's why I've also started to pick up from Hard Knocks. It seems like to me, the injuries are obviously a concern to them. They are not ignoring that you had that ACL, he's had two neck injuries. That's very clear. And they were very aware of the position they were in this draft, where they were picking six in a, you know, a very good quarterback class where if they had the chance to upgrade at the most important position in sports, they were willing to do that. But I don't think they necessarily have given up as some of the, some fans, including myself, a have of where they were on Daniel Jones after he took them to the playoffs. I think they probably still have some hope there, you know, one of my questions, though, to kind of what you were saying there, Dan, is, no, you talk about some of those QB teams, you talk about like the Dolphins and, you know, partially, the reason there's, to a that does so well there is because they built the perfect offense to like, play to every single one of his strengths and get away from his weaknesses. I have yet to kind of see if Brian Dable wants to play. He has, he does the ability to play to Daniel Jones strength, but it seems like he wants to play his offense and he values that overplaying to the strength of the Daniel Jones. So that's another interesting part of this whole thing and where they're trying to move forward and where some of this drew lock, like the rumors were hearing and how that kind of like, I'll, I'll push back a little on that Monte because I do think in his first season in 2022, it was the opposite of that. I don't think that offense is what Brian Dable wants his offense to look like at all. I think that offense was curtailing to Daniel Jones's strengths. Now the issue is, and I know, you know, unfortunately, some people are going to take offense this and be offended by it and be so hurt and they can't fathom it. They can't understand it, whatever, whatever, but like, it's hard to figure out right now what Daniel Jones's strengths are. That's the issue right now. So I think at this point in time, and some people will say, well, he's very accurate. I haven't seen that on tape. I don't see the accuracy. Sure. You can point to me some, some, some rate stats a year or two ago and look at these small sample size numbers, but just with your own eyes, when you watch on the tape, the ball placement. See, there's difference between completing a pass and having completion percentage and having the ball placement put in a spot to maximize yard depth of the catch. And I haven't seen good ball placement consistently accurate ball. But I consider it to be very accurate ball placement on anything but the deep dig route. That's one route. I think he throws really well that in breaking 15 year route, he threw it to slate in a bunch. I'll play actually with Garrett. He threw it with day ball a bunch. He can drive that ball in there with really good ball placement timing and velocity. But the short stuff one to five hasn't been good. The crossing routes have not been good at any three levels. And I don't find this deep ball to be accurate. I think it gets there sometimes, but it's never really leading the receiver. And it's not what I would consider to be very accurate. So from a strength standpoint, he can run. That's one of his strengths. He's really good on the run. He got better. I thought in 2022. And if we're you know, some people want to throw out 2023, that's fine because the injuries and the whole line. He got better at throwing on the run in 2022. I thought he got better off platform throws. These are clear areas he improved in the pocket presence stuff felt like it was a bit fleeting to me. But we'll see what happens this year in that regard took a step back last year, took a step forward in 2022. It's kind of up in the air there. But at this stage in time, Brian Dable, I think has to run his own offense. I think that's what he's doing by calling the plays because he has to be like, that's it. There's no more curtailing the offense that Daniel Jones because that they did in 2022. And it kind of worked, but then teams figured it out because they got tape on it. And there's no more running that kind of cook, you know, as Matt Harmon described it with the first year of Jalen Waddle in Miami before to it was a Mickey Mouse offense. That's pretty much what the 2022 Giants offense was. It's not going to work anymore. It can't work. It's proven it's not going to work. It's done. Now he has to sink or swim in Brian Dable's version of the offense, what he wants it to be. And we'll see what can happen there because I did to your point, just one final thing on this. I don't think he's going to curtail it to Daniel Jones skill set, which again, I'm not even quite sure what what it really is right now. And without say, one too. Yeah. I'm trying to. Yeah. That also can can't work for that reason alone. Good point. I'm not sure I fully agree that we're going to see a full version of Brian Dable's ideal offense. Okay. Because and here's why I'll say that the his first two seasons here and I learned this by watching you guys, he tried that offense in the beginning of both seasons, right? He tried to push it, push it down the field and it just failed. And then, you know, I mean, the first season, they won games and but largely, you know, they're winning because of explosive run plays by Safe One Barkley in the second half of the games. If you remember that season, it was just that's what was happening was freakish. It was almost unreplicable. And then last year just fell apart, right? They couldn't do anything on offense. And obviously some it's not all Jones, but he was pretty awful. And then the line fell apart. Everything just went to shit. It's, you know, I think it was hard to see it play out. And I think if that happens again this year, you don't have Barkley. If they try, I have no doubt they'll try this early. What if there are two games in? I mean, there's, what if you go 0 and 2 against the Vikings and the commanders? I don't think they will. I think there's a better chance they go to and oh, they don't want to. But still, like what if you're 0 and 2 or 1 and 3 or something like that and you're trying this more vertical style offense. It's not working. Are you just going to dig in and say, I have to run this offense at Daniel Jones. I'm benching you or do you think it's more likely that he kind of goes back to like what this guy does well is sort of the, you know, quick game and RPO stuff, short area stuff. We have Malik neighbors and Mondale Robinson. Let's try to utilize them. I think that's more likely. I think that's where we're heading if he can't, if he can't take the big leap into running a vertical offense. I have a hard time believing in year six, he's going to suddenly fundamentally change as a quarterback. So I have a feeling if he can't do it as long as he's healthy, they're going to go back to what he does. Well, he has some, you know, I agree with you, he doesn't maximize the act. I think there's a reason guys don't have big yardage with him. It's not just, he doesn't have great receivers. He can't hit him and stride and you can't maximize the guy who's good after the catch. He has to stop to catch the ball every time, right? And I think Malik neighbors are going to get a healthy dose of being bracketed. And if you can't hit him and stride and give him a chance to win, we're going to, we're not going to see his maximal production, but I do think they may go back to that kind of offense, you know, like we're, I wouldn't shock me if I like week two, week three, week four, they're like, you know what? Let's go back to that 2022 offense because it worked. I think we're going to see baby steps, then we're to see baby steps to verticality. We're going to see a lot of that RPO and a lot of stuff that we've seen a lot recently. A lot of this is also going to be dictated by what the defense is doing to the New York Giants. One, we play one of the most aggressive defensive coordinators in the national football. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of blitz beaters. It's going to be a lot of hot routes dialed into that. The protection is going to be dialed in to protecting Daniel Jones. If he is the starter, he's one year, not less than one year removed from a torn ACL at that point. So I don't know if they're going to want to be just four of her it's all the time, obviously, right? Not against that type of corner. You might see your stuff. Oh, it's a one on one situation. Get the ball in Wandale's hands. Maybe you can make a guy miss turn what would have been a five yard game against this defense and to a touchdown against another one, right? So I think it's more so that we might see more baby steps and the offense that we have seen over the last two years, something similar to that, but then certain situations, depending on what the defense does, we're going to, Hey, Daniel, you get this look, I want you to take that nine route. I want you to hit that nine round. That's going to give Jones a little bit more opportunity to attack vertical. So I think it's, that's more likely than, than, um, than them just going out and just bombing it. And that's probably not what they're going to do with historically the way the New York Giants offensive line has done with the quarterback who has been injured. You don't want to really do five, seven step drops all the time. I want to make it clear, by the way, so I agree with you, by the way, I'm not saying I don't think that could easily, that scenario could play out like it could be a situation where yes, Brian Dable wants to finally let his offense play out the way that he's hoped for it to play out. Cause again, like I agree with you, he's tried at times in the past, but he has never been calling the plays, or at least not to our knowledge, yes, I've been calling the plays. I guess there's the most speculation he might have, and we don't know. So now he really gets his chance to put the stamp on what he believes this offense can be. But I agree, if it's not working, they're not just going to keep doing it. And they're going to go back to what works for Daniel Jones is right, the RPOs, the quick hitting stuff. It's getting the ball out of his hands fast with like, defying routes and if not letting him run. But I will say this, there has been moments like last year, for example, Tyra Taylor had one of the highest explosive pass rates in the NFL at all quarterbacks, like a lot of what he did, by the way, wasn't, in my mind, at least Brian Dable too much of Brian Dable scheming up like, or Mike Kafka calling great plays. Sometimes it was just Tyra Taylor understanding where things were at before the snap, doing like a three step drop, hitting his back foot and letting it rip. It was simple as that. Go watch the tape. You'll see it with your own eyes. It was a lot of three to five step drops, Tyra Taylor diagnosed it before the snap, understood where the space was going to be post snap, and just let it rip. It wasn't watching these long things develop downfield with great pass production. So in a lot of ways, like these are routes are always going to be available to Jones. That's just how this offense is designed. It's a matter of can he process it? In my mind, a lot of it is before the snap at this point with Jones. Yes, we all know how he is after the snap, but he's got to give him a much better understanding stuff before the snap and being able to predict where rotation is going to be and where the space is going to be post snap. That's all done before the snap and just let it rip. And I'm sure Brian Dable wants him to do this too, so we'll see if he can do it. He's driven by the search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search "match" with Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Ditch the busy work, use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster, leveraging over 140 million qualifications and preferences every day. Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences, so the more you use Indeed, the better it gets. Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/bluewire. Just go to indeed.com/bluewire right now and support our show by saying that you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/bluewire, terms and conditions applied. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Ever feel sluggish or out of focus? Are you stressed? Has your digestive system caused discomfort or flatulence like a certain co-host on this podcast during a live stream? If so, you should check out AG1. When I started drinking AG1 daily, I could feel a real difference in my daily health. I had more energy, I was better off at the gym and I could focus on my work in a much more efficient manner. That's because AG1 is a foundational nutrition supplement that supports your body's universal needs like gut optimization, stress management and immune support. Since 2010, AG1 has led the future, a foundational nutrition continuously refining their formula to create a smarter, better way to elevate your baseline health. Not only did I replace my multivitamin with AG1, but I love that every scoop also includes prebiotics, probiotics and digestive enzymes for gut support. I recommend AG1 to all my family and friends because AG1 has a team of doctors and scientists that formulate the latest science and maintain high quality standards within the industry. Even my friends have started drinking AG1, and they always tell me how energetic they feel and how it's helped them out at the gym and also it's helped them manage their stress levels. That's why we're happy to have AG1 as our partner. If you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one year supply of Vitamin D3K2 and 5 free AG1 travel packs when you first subscribe. Go to drinkag1.com/banter that's drinkag1.com/banter to check it out. Our mental and physical wellbeing is of the utmost importance. Whether you're a world class athlete or a podcaster like me, we all need to take that very seriously. That's why I'm excited that Unified Healing is sponsoring this episode of the Big Blue Bantar Podcast. Unified Healing is a new and super innovative global network of wellness centers powered by Energy Enhancement System, or EE System. If you haven't heard of the EE System yet, you'll want to listen up. This technology promotes wellness, deep relaxation, purification, and rejuvenation. Whether you're here in New York, New Jersey, Arizona, if you will, or hundreds of other locations across the globe, access to a center is easy and affordable. Interested in experiencing the EE System technology for yourself? Go to unifiedhealing.com/banter to learn more and find a center near you. That's U-N-I-F-Y-D Healing.com/banter. No material or testimonials on the Unified Healing website are intended to be viewed as medical advice or a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care providers, with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment, and before undertaking the new health care regimen, include EE System. Yeah. I'm curious. I've kind of moved past the quarterback discussion to something that mentally just from my own sanity this year because they've set a pretty high bar for what they wanted quarterback. I don't know how they're getting there any time soon, so I'm trying to think of how do I define success of this season, right? I'll criticize Joe Shane, I'll criticize Brian Deville, but I'm not somebody who wants anybody fired. I just want people to get better. I want to define success and I'm bracking my brain thinking, "What would define success as a fan for me this year?" I have a few thoughts, but the way I look at it is I think there's a large variability about potential outcomes this season. That's just because there's so many unknowns, right? The entire defense is not known. It's all young. The entire secondary, the entire secondary, everybody's playing essentially out of position for the first time. Every single person is getting up promotion. No matter who's playing, you're going from CB2 to CB1, nickel to CB2, nobody to nickel, two new safeties, including a rookie essentially. I don't know how Micah McFadden fits into this defense. I think I'll be curious to see how good Bobby O'Karrick is in this defense. There's definitely somebody missing on the defensive line, even though we have three really great guys on the defensive line. Then on the offense, it's a whole new offensive line. Because there's so much variability and there's so many young players, I feel like the bell curve of outcomes is really wide, right? It's not like this really well-defined. This is what's likely to happen. It's just like this huge variability. It's probably going to land in like six, seven wins. I think that's why Vegas has them there just because there's just so many unknowns. I think that's where people think they're going to land. But it wouldn't shock me if everything clicked that they were like an 8-9 win team. That would not shock me. So I'm trying to define what's successful. My definition of success would be, number one, seeing these young players the last few years that they drafted and brought in actually hit their stride and beat impact players. And really on offense, I don't care about Daniel Jones specifically, but I'd like to see an offense that can put up at least 22 to 24 points per game consistently. Because in year three of Brian Dable, I would like to see a piece because that's like just league average. Can we get to a league average offense where we have a shot to win games? That's how I'm defining success. How about you guys? Go for it first, Nick. I think everything you said is spot on, but I think one of the biggest Achilles heel to the New York Giants since Brian Dable got here. And this is certainly doesn't, it's not consistent with Brian Dable's history. Is there a lack of explosive plays? So I want to see an offense that can create some explosive plays and not rely solely on efficiency off of play action, like they did so early on in the 2022 season, because if you can just threaten defenses vertically, I think that can open up your off until open up your running game will take a burden off of Daniel Jones, but that requires the offensive line that requires the receivers creating separation. And then that requires very decisive decision making from a quarterback who I would say is a little bit hesitant in that department to be cutting. For me, it's like, first, I want to start with your variable take and then I'll get into what I how to define success, Sala Monti, but the variable takes interesting to me because it's like they did manage to win six games last year with a really, really bad situation from an injury luck standpoint in my mind at least. And half of those came with Tommy DeVito at quarterback, like he's not really in NFL talent. He's good could be a backup at some point, but that's not exactly, especially what he was like last year, like toward the end of that DeVito run, the processing was that you could see it on tape, like he was done in the pocket. It was slower than what you saw from Jones earlier in the year. And that was the worst we've seen from a process standpoint in Jones's career. And a lot of that was because of again, the old line or whatnot. But you know, I think this guy can coach to win game. So I kind of feel like it's not that fair. But I think the Giants are going to be somewhere between six and 10. And it's just in that range. I can even see things breaking right. I don't see them losing, I don't see it going 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 wins. I just don't see it. If they were able to win six last year, I just personally don't see it. And I never thought the rosters as bad as some other people do, to be completely honest. They have Andrew Thomas on the roster, Dexter Lawrence, Brian Burns, Yante Banks. They have a lot. If you look around the NFL, there's some of these teams that have just ripped through the cap and like veteraned out and they don't have any talent left on the roster. If you look at some of these rosters, not necessarily all of them, obviously the Giants are in the bottom tier, third tier, I would say. But anyway, to define success for me, it's interesting because it's both short term and long term as far as my opinion goes, right? Because short term, success for me is, I want to see like 250 plus yards passing a game. I'm at that point now where that's where I'm defining success. I'm tired of watching these 200 yards passing game offense the last five years. They can't throw the football at all. You're winning some of these games, but it's like 197 passing. I'm looking to see passing. People may listen then here. I don't care. Just win the games. Because long term, you're not going to win anything real. If you don't have a passing offense in this league, get some passing offense. I want to see them actually take that step because then I'll have proof of maybe what I was suggesting before, which is like table can design a quarterback proof offense or a quarterback friendly offense or whatever you want to call. But now the question is long term, this is where it gets tricky, right? If the Giants do take the step forward from both a win standpoint and a passing standpoint, is that what I or you or us really want to see because the issue being, I'm just going to be point blank with it. I'm not afraid to say it. People get offended by this. I don't understand why, but I don't believe in Daniel Jones long term. Doesn't matter what he puts on tape this year, unless it's an insanely massive jump. I don't believe that he can take up 20% of a team salary cap and you can consistently compete to win Super Bowls. And that's not to say I don't believe he can be a consistent playoff guy or whatever. Take a huge jump to being a solid quarterback in the 10 to 15 range. He can be that maybe. I don't care. I'm not arguing that point. I just set a bar really hot. So please, if you're mad at that comment, understand whoever's listening that it's because I'm setting the bar super hot. My bar is I don't want to pay. I don't want to allocate 20% cap to any quarterback unless he's consistently helping you compete for Super Bowls year in, year out, otherwise I'll restart and go back to the well and figure out a different way to do this thing. So what I'm what I'm saying is if they do take that step short term, it's a possibility that could be another step backward long term. But they convince themselves again that we can keep playing this guy 20% of our cap and try to win Super Bowls. Yeah. So I'll give my take as well as what I see excess. One thing I wanted to say as well to your point though, Dan, I want to push back a little bit too because a lot of people bring up like the six wins last year and I definitely hear it to come from him. But in the same time, you know, we lost Wink Martindale and we led the NFL and turnovers last year. We led the NFL and turnover differential. We were the first team, I believe the status, first team in NFL history, not to make playoffs when they led the league and turnover differential. So like, like things really went our way last year with that. And that's not something that even if we had Wink is not something that typically carries over year to year. So you know, that's the one thing that yeah, I keep I keep in mind with that. You know, the team, I think overall will get better than it was last year. I just don't know if it will, you know, turn into wins like it did the previous year because of that reason, you know, but to kind of what your point there was, Dan, about like, you know, we see a success and how it affects the quarterback for, you know, for me, you know, I right now what I'm focused on where I see success is, you know, one of what kind of excel said, seeing success out of these draft classes because no one I want to see, I want to know if we have the GM, I want to get some more proof that Joe is the guy and that his things. And then on the other side, I want to see, I want to be confident that Brian Dables, the guy from this year, I want to see them coach above, you know, like fight above their, their weight and they will and really show again that like, you know, last year was the outlier, not the first year and that we have the guy because right now the way I look at it is like last year, if we bottomed out that was, you know, best case scenario for me because you've got your, your quarterback, you move on this year, not a great quarterback class. And I think almost even more important is that what happens if you, if you bottom out this year and you don't know if you have the head coach, suddenly you have a head coach off bad back to back losing seasons. Are you then going to let him pick his quarterback? Are you going to let Joe Shane pick his quarterback and then suddenly you have maybe a head coach and a GM on a hot seat, like Chicago Bears pick and Justin Field style and they go and the, you know, the quarterback does not see immediate success. They got fired. So like for me, I'm just like, I, I don't, I know the quarterbacks a problem, but I just, I, we can figure out right now if our head coach and GM is, that's where kind of my focuses, that's where I'm seeing success. And I know that the quarterback is a pain in the ass and I want to get it figured out as soon as possible. But that's where, where my focus is right now. It's fair. Cause look, in the end, like it's going to be, well, I, I view this a little bit differently than, than Sal, I know that cause we've had these conversations, but it's going to be hard to find that quarterback, no matter what, in my opinion, at least I, I, especially with the guys that because I set that bar even higher, like to me, those clinics and whatever types were not my, my cut of the, like to me, you, you maybe you get it out of that, but it's, it's not even, I don't feel as good about that as they, like how many prospects are they going to get a chance at that really can change this franchise's problem? Well, I mean, it'll, it's a good segue to what we wanted to discuss with the rest of the, the time we have, but I just want, you know, I'll say this, like they did set the bar high. Like you're right. Um, I will, I think the quarterback class coming up without the benefit of seeing the season play out. Obviously that can change a lot. Yeah. When you're just looking at the, the talent pool, this is going to be a pretty bad year to swing in the top 10, I think for a quarterback. And it might be in one of that, one of those rare ideal years to swing on day two. Well, I'm not a big fan of the day two quarterback, but this might be the year to swing on the upside talent that's not fully developed. That's going to have to hit the draft. Um, so there, there are a few guys already that like Monty and I've been launching their film and their guys were probably, probably not making it to the first round, but probably have requisite traits that you can swing on. And to me, maybe a good scenario here is Brian, Dave will prove his worth. They have a, you know, maybe they punch above their weight a little bit. You know, he's your guy. They don't force quarterback around one. They're, let's say they're drafting in the middle of the first round or something. They go BPA, get a defensive play or something like that, whatever. It's a good, strong defensive class coming up and they take a swing somewhere on day two, they get a developmental guy and maybe it's Jones who's here. If they have a decent year, maybe it's somebody else, but they keep building the roster and at least they've proven to you that, look, this regime is worth keeping and allowing them to continue roster building and coaching. I think that's probably the best case scenario. When winning just do that as well, at this point, like, after a tire, like, to Dan's point, winning six games last year was somewhat impressive. I know it sounds disgusting to say, but it really was because it was, yeah, it was like a net zero outcome for the New York Giants. It was Murphy's law. Everything went wrong for the Giants last year and somehow they were able to manage six wins, which took them out of the third pick, which the Giants so desperately wanted but as we've known and as we've learned and hard knocks episode two, so even if Brian Dable can write the ship and just play competitive football and not be an absolute embarrassment and win some football games this year, that at least gives me the warm and fuzzy feeling that we have the guy, especially if he just call him plays and the offense is moving football and even if Daniel Jones isn't the quarterback we want him to be, if we see just the offense being capable and competent, that's going to at least allow me to say to myself or justify to myself that Brian Dable may deserve another year if the locker room stays together. That's a whole nother aspect to this is the Wink Martindale thing last year was kind of wild. I don't know if any of the defensive players have any kind of allegiance to him or if they have any animosity towards Brian Dable. I'm not suggesting that they do, but it's, I don't want to say plausible, but if they did, that wouldn't be the craziest thing in the world. If they had this sort of true feeling for Wink Martindale and they felt like the head coach wasn't doing their defensive play call or defensive coordinator, right? You know what I'm saying? They're present. Yeah, definitely. So he needs to prove that he can keep that shit together. Yeah. He's set a pretty low bar for himself, so it should be easy to hop over. Just don't have a meltdown on the sideline every week and win some games. For real. All right. Do you guys want to go into like the fun little exercise we thought about doing as we head into the season? So let me give the background to everybody paying attention. I was going to say our listeners, our mutual listeners. So because Monty and I do the breakdown of prospects all year, we are looking, as we go into our second year, we've talked a lot about how we're going to do things differently. And one way we're going to look at it is probably going to this and have a very objective way of like reviewing these prospects, their measurables, footwork, things like that. But you guys are the film guys. We want you to find out like how NFL pro games are broken down, play design, everything. So what we asked Nick and Dan to do is pick four players and four different positions that they would like to see like a hypothetical position that we should target in the upcoming draft. So it could be any position. We don't know what they're picking right now, but we want them to pick up like four guys, four positions, give it to us and tell us like somebody who could help the giants and actually give us a profile, forget the player, tell us what you're looking for in that player. And then Monty and I are going to actually, we're going to use that template as we go through the player reviews in college to see if we can find players that fit with these guys are looking for and it might make a little bit more fun to review later. So I'll let you guys take it from there. Have you come up with your four guys? I have not come up with four guys, but I actually kind of want to start with maybe a mini debate here because the cornerback position is the first position that came to my mind. I think it's safe to say that if you look at the giant step chart, there's a dearth of proven talent there right now. And I know they just drafted Andrew Phillips. We'll see how that works out, but I want to feel comfortable with a young cornerback opposite of Deontay Banks. I have faith in Deontay Banks. He's a good football player. Now we're switching to this more quarters, palms type of system. You still need to have an athlete with oily hips, but the debate that I wanted to kind of like throw at you guys, pause it out here is Max Melton was a name that was linked to the New York Giants. And he had traits that I felt like would mesh well with really any defensive coordinator, but specifically with Shane Bowen, who was going to play off a little bit. The thing I love about Max Melton was his explosiveness and his zero to 100 acceleration when he was clicking and closing and driving downhill. It was freakish and he was one of the first, he was the first cornerback I evaluated and I was like, dude, are they all this good? Like this is kind of crazy, right? So I'm wondering if the Giants were looking at Max Melton and saying, we want him to basically be a slot or do you think that the Giants maybe wanted him to be a boundary? And maybe Andrew Phillips was just the contingency plan because Max Melton went high and then Andrew Phillips, because they have similar profiles. I would say Max Melton, I think he can play outside, but a lot of people would label him as a slaughter or nickel as well. I want to throw that at you to see what you felt about that. Yeah, I think Sal and I both really liked how Max Melton translated to being a slot corner. And I do think of what you're saying probably makes a lot of sense is that once Max Melton was off the board, I mean, we did hear a lot about them liking Andrew Phillips as well, but I do think that there was probably an idea where we've heard they prefer Cordell Flott outside and want to give them a shot at an outside corner. And I think that they really did have their their heart set on trying to fill that nickel spot, which is an important position within Shane Bowen's defense. So I think that, you know, I don't know if they preferred Andrew Phillips or preferred Max Melton, but you know, we won't know because Max Melton went first. But yeah, I do think that, you know, that was in a way, like you said, a contingency plan when they went, you know, when they went to Phillips said, what about you? We love Milton early on when we reviewed him, you know, it's hard not to look at the first game we watched was his 2022 game against Ohio State. And the way he held up against Marvin Harrison, Jr. and a mecca Gupta, I was like, this guy is on his own, like he's by far the best player on this team. And he's still taking out like the top receivers in the country. I was very impressed at how competitive he was, how, how quick he was. I think my favorite call correctly, the only criticism I had of him was like when he was running down the field, he kind of didn't turn around. Yeah. That's what I remember. There were plays where he was just running to the receiver and you get away with that a little bit more in college, but I loved his aggressiveness. I loved his run support. And I thought, and I remember saying, I think when we did our senior role, we was like, this guy looks like a nickel to me, like I think he profiles more as a nickel than NFL. And I do think Nick, to your point, he would have been a perfect nickel who could play outside if he needed him to, but would have said, well, I think he probably was their target. But the way he blew up the combine, if I recall his, his, his RAS score was like a, like a nine nine or something insane, right, like he ran like a four, three, three or something crazy or four, three, 40 plus inches. Yeah. I mean, it was hilarious. Cause all the guys we liked that we thought were kind of sleepers, like in the middle of the season, they all had ridiculous combines. I was like, well, there goes that idea. I wonder they were so good. I mean, you, well, because it shows up on tape, right? You see the explosiveness, you see the speed and you're like, why is nobody talking about this guy? A guy that like, not, not your question, but a guy that remember, I put out to, to Monty back in like October, I was like, have you seen this guy, Darius Robinson? Do you remember that? And like nobody was talking about him. I was like, look at this guy, Darius Robinson, look at his tape from Missouri and, and we're watching him. We're like, holy shit. I liked him. Sorry. Yeah. He was awesome. He was a sleeper. I was the people that didn't even talk about him. He was so good. And then I heard, I believe it was like Bruggler or somebody, one of them was like, yeah, when we asked like, get her to be smart, I believe, or one of these, I think it was Kirby smart, like, who's, he's like, this is the guy in the SEC, like this is the guy that's wrecking game plans in the SEC. Bruggler, it was, it was, it was either, I think Jeremiah had him in his first mock or something. He had him in the first round. I was like, oh my God, what's going on here? And now we're getting, we were getting like our fifth round of our mock draft, regulators. But, but, but, but not to stray too much from the point Nick, but I think, yeah, I mean, I think, I think Max Milton is exactly the kind of prototype that they were, they would have been looking for. I just think he did so well. The combine. It just made it impossible. 39, I think, I wasn't surprised that he was off the board at 47, not at all. So to circle back to the original question, I'm looking for a player on the outside, similar to Max Milton, I would say a little bit more disciplined, though, and a little bit bigger and longer arms. Now, ideally, I like to have corners who have like 31 and a half. 32 is the benchmark that doesn't always get reached, but a cornerback with 32 in charms is typically something that you're always looking for. But I want a corner, specifically in this system, who is going to be decisive, who understands route combinations, and importantly, they really understand spatial awareness. They have that type of feel for where they are in relationship to the routes and where the routes are going to go. So somebody who is a high processor and is also explosive and has that quick twitch trigger downhill if they need to just plant and drive and go. I'm assuming in this system of Shane Bowen, you're not prioritizing the punch anymore, because he very rarely puts these guys in press situations, right? So we're sacrificing physicality at the snap for processing and spatial awareness. Is that right? Yes, but I mean, I'm a stickler for physicality too, like Cordo Flot, like Cordo Flot look like he's not somebody who's overly physical, but I want a cornerback who's going to have like the balls to be able to stick on a wide receiver and not allow a wide receiver to basically punish them off or just like flipper them off, like somebody who is has some play strength. We're just thinking like an ideal type of guy, right? So the man coverage skills at oily hips that Andrew Phillips has the explosiveness of Max Mellon along arms and then the vision, the spatial awareness and the overall football IQ to know where he is and where the receivers are. Okay. I like it. So any sort of height requirements that you're looking? I mean, I like somebody who's over 510 personally at the quarterback, preferably even a little bit taller than that with some of these freaks that are in the NFL running around at like six foot four, you got to cover like drink one on one. I kind of want somebody who is at least going to be in the ballpark. I think six one is a is a is a good benchmark for a player who typically can still maintain some center of gravity that can keep him down to earth and he's not going to be uncoordinated or off balance, but I'm not too, uh, too stuck with that. If they're like five nine and they're or five nine is a little bit rough. They're five 10 and like a max melton, for instance, and, and they're just a very controlled player, a very disciplined player who can open and close his hips. I'm going to be happy with that and those long arms and then long arms, but I think I'm not. Close. He's described you want and you're describing probably the best player in the draft coming up. Yeah. Yeah. Will Johnson. Yeah. And you've basically described him to a tee, you know, but I don't know how he'll do with a wig Martendale, like it's a very different system that he's going from, uh, from, from, from winter to wink. So I'm curious how he, how he looks within the season, but I got, I got you. That's a really good profile actually. So we'll have to keep notes on that one. So that's a corner back. That's your first one. Yes. All right. You got three more. I'll stay. Yeah. We can go back and forth. I'll stay on the defensive side of the ball because something you mentioned earlier really stood out to me. And it was a little bit of qua, a little bit of reservation when it comes to will Mike and make fat and translate to this new system because I thought he did really well eventually in with Martendale system. Wasn't that he was without his flaws, but he had his moments by the OK, I'm less concerned about because I've seen some moments in space that I liked a lot from a covered standpoint. But I know based on the system and all the resource, the importance, it was no coincidence that they unloaded all those picks into defensive backs. And they knew that they need to revamp like they've built this defensive backs out for a specific cause and a specific system. And now it's going to be totally different as Nick just did a great job outlining. I feel like the second level is also going to be totally different from what they expect that as linebackers. This is something that Shane Bowen himself even said, I believe on hard knocks. So you first have to believe. So what I'm looking for at that second level and something I've been looking for for a while is a linebacker who is past coverage first, but also operates really well in space. There have been so many guys that Nick and I have talked about on day two and three prospects and our redraw press over the past three years of doing this. It's never drafted any of them, but they were guys that we looked at and we watched on tape and were like, these guys have the upside. The kid I love this year from that standpoint was the kid at a Washington state. Henley was it this year last year, last year, last year, two years ago, and I don't know how he's done year one, whatever, but like that style, some of the Patriots, right? No, I thought he went to the Chargers if I'm not the Chargers, but I could be wrong about them. I thought he went to the Chargers, but that style of linebacker, someone who's really good in space and similar to what Nick said, has the length to get into passing lanes, but most importantly has like just that spatial awareness and that IQ, which again goes to being good in space because they need something so different. They haven't had that really at linebacker in a long time. Like if you really think back, it almost goes back like Michael Bowlley. That's when the last time they had that kind of linebacker in any system that the Giants were running, and I believe that was with Perry Fuel as the coordinator, who was more of that kind of off-coverage space-based system. So I'm looking at that position. I'm looking at them finally getting one of those day two or day three linebackers that can play in space, and I'm not trying to say Michael, I'm a fan and can't do it. Let's wait and see. Obviously, it's a long time to go until then, but I have my reservation for how he's going to potentially fit this system. And then you'd be looking at O'Kareke playing like more, I mean, it's not a 4-3, but playing more of like that mic and then allowing this next linebacker kind of like more freedom to play pass coverage and stuff like that. Yeah. I think ultimately like just any NFL defense is not really 3, 4, 4, 3. It's mostly to sub packages for 75% of the plays anyway. Yeah. That's fair. Right off the bat, I know we're not doing this immediately, but there's three guys right off the bat that I can think of that probably fit the bill. I'm sometimes going to go on the first round is a kid out of LSU, Harold Perkins. I don't know if you've seen him yet, but he's sort of like the, he's being described as like sort of like the this year's version of Michael Parsons, you know, like he's like sort of like, no, nobody should not fair to put that on a kit, but yeah, he's that really elusive athlete playing middle linebacker, but he can be a pass rusher as an edge. He can run out and cover tight ends. He's a very versatile athlete, he's a little undersized, but they're all undersized now. That's a thing. Right. Six, one, two, twenty is sort of like how big they are now coming out of college. Like you're not getting these six, too many of these six, three, two, fifty guys anymore. Right. So you got to choose. If you want the guy you're talking about, these are more of the undersized guys. The other guy that comes to mind as a kid who was good, who if he came out last year, I think would have probably been in talks for linebacker one, Barrett Carter out of Clemson. He was running mate with Jeremiah Trotter Jr. and he was awesome. Like the freak athlete, he's a great blitzer. He's really, really athletic, but he can get into coverage and a little bit of a smaller guy. And the third guy I can think right now is, I mean, he might emerge big time. He's a little bit of a larger, bigger wingspan guy, Danny's touchman out of Oklahoma. So just three names, throw it to you guys for lots of you got a chance and see if any of them fit the bill. But I see what you're saying. You want somebody who can drop back into zone and follow routes and be support in the run game, but not necessarily the guy that you're counting on being the Mike is what you're saying. Correct. Exactly. And I think the perfect player that Dan and I went over, I think two drafts ago, what would be Dorian Williams from Jimmy. Yeah. Yeah. A player like that, you can get him maybe third round, fourth round. He can come in and for the bills this year, he had a pretty big impact. But to go on to my second one, if you guys are cool with that, staying on the defensive side of the football. And this is a lot of giant fans have discussed quite often this, this season, I believe it was brought up a little bit in hard knocks as well. And then also Christian Wilkins thing, but it's defensive line, specifically a three technique, specifically somebody who has a quick upfield burst who can penetrate. There's been a lot of talk about penetration, my friends, okay, like Shane Bowen was talking a lot about it, but I want that aggressive, 290, 295 pound player who can fire off the line of scrimmage times the snap well, stays low through his first, second, third steps, actually knows how to use his hands and can dip and have flexibility in his lower half. A player like that, honestly, dude, I bring this up a lot on the big blue banter, Dexter Lawrence to freak like they're just aren't players like Dexter Lawrence, Dexter Lawrence is wildly flexible for a guy who's 346 pounds. Now I want somebody who's maybe 50 pounds lighter who is just going to threaten one-on-one matchups because Dexter Lawrence had like a 71% double team rate last year, it's getting double teamed all the time. And now you have Brian Burns and KVON Tibidot in the wide nine base that we're going to see on third down, we're going to see wide nine to stretch those angles out, to force those tackles into deep vertical sets, double team on Dexter Lawrence and if we can add a player like Braden Fisk from this past draft who went and go into the Rams, blew up the combine. Now the guy had Van Wilder thing going on, he was in school for like five years or something, like I didn't love that about him, but I understood that he was very good when he was stunting and twisting because he was controlled, he had great footwork and his change of direction was solid. But if you just asked him to penetrate as well, he had that too. So I think the Giants defense can be taken to another level if they can find a player like that. I'm hoping that some of these like 285 pounds, like the rider Anderson's of the world and players like that, Casey Rogers, they can become that, maybe they can, who knows. But at this point, I'm a player of maybe higher draft caliber to be put into that position of compliment decks. I think that can really assist this defense in this pass rush. I totally agree with you said, you know, Sal and I both, that was both a big, big one priority of ours. Yeah, I was like, we were one of our, we were pissed after the draft that we didn't walk with one of these guys. There were so many guys in the last round. Good for Melissa. You I'd like to, not the, not the gigantic five star one. You know, I make up Macai Wingo. Macai Wingo. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was right there. One of the six round, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was there when we took the special team era. I was like, ah, let's take Wingo. But, but yeah, man, I mean, especially with, you know, Andre Patterson, you know, play to the strength of your coaches, the guys who can develop, you know, get, get, get it in these guys' hands. And that's how you can get your true difference makers. You know, I had a question for you just with this. How do you value, um, you know, length in these guys, or is it more just quickness and you know, you're fine with them being shorter because they have more leverage? How do you feel about that? So I, I don't mind short. I do like long arms though. So I'm kind of a stick. So like, as an Azizo Jalari, look, injuries have just plagued this guy's career, but I felt like, and I still feel like his prototype is a good one. Somebody who was very explosive, somebody who was very flexible. He's six, one, maybe six, two, has 34 inch arms. So you can remain low with, with a nice sturdy center of gravity. And there's the surface area for tackles to strike are already low. So they're going to have to get off balance, trying to punch him and he can also swivel at the hip and present that inside shoulder. There's just not a lot of contact area for them to gain and he's flexible enough to bend. So that's why I've always liked that profile from an edge rusher. If you look at Aaron Donald, guys like six foot right now. He's an absolute freak in nature, but if you six foot and you have long enough arms and you're quick and you're strong at the point of attack still, I'm fine with that. But when you're like six, one and you have like 31 inch arms as a defensive lineman, it's tough because they can dictate, they could just dictate to you all the time. So that, that, that is an issue for me with, with Aziz and a player like that though, you can dictate, you know, because you can stay low, you can punch up 34 inches, make that contact. And then that can set up your subsequent move to take advantage of what the tackle is doing to you. So I, I don't really mind about the height, but the length, I'm a little bit of a sticker for. I hear like, so we want, so let's just summarize what you're looking for, then you want somebody who's basically, it sounds like you want somebody even stunt twist can be a one gapper is what you're looking for. Somebody who's looking off the snap, right? And somebody who basically is going to take advantage of the lanes created by Dexter Lawrence getting double team to provide interior pass rush is what your primary is, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not a guy. Well, we'll don't. That's something we're looking for. So we're going to put that in the vault to look for. Let me throw a name out at you that I feel like we could solve this problem in August, in August. And this, another one that infuriated me that we didn't pick this guy up, but he, he went undrafted. The kid from Miami, Leonard Taylor, did you look at his film at all? I did not. I didn't get a chance to either. No. So prior to the season was in talks as DT one coming out last year, that he was not like Johnny Newton, but he was like right behind him in, in terms of his ability as a pass rusher. He's six, three, three at the combine of six, three, three, oh three, 30, almost 34 inch arms. Yeah. Right. He didn't test a lead. He tested. Okay. Right. But he is a freak athlete on film. Now, here's why he went undrafted. He's a natural three to five tech. And Chris of all at Miami had the kid playing nose tackle last year, way out of position. And he had to gain weight for it. Cause I think he played it like 290 before that and he went over 300 for nose. Despite playing nose out of position, I think you have like a 13% pass rush win rate, which is like double what you're supposed to do on the interior. Wow. Yeah. Here's why I think we can get him the jet sign as the UDF a, I'm, I don't know about character issues. You know, I never know why some of the guys don't get drafted. There might be something there. I didn't hear any health issues. It might be character might be testing wasn't what people expected. Whatever it was, he put it on film as a pass rusher on the interior playing out of position, kind of like the opposite of decks when he should have been playing nose and he was playing like what on the outside for years under Patrick Graham. And you knew that just if you put it in the right spot, he would eventually take off. I feel like this is sort of like where Taylor is sign that jets depth chart at D line is ridiculous. It is hard for me to see that kid make the team like, and I don't know what they're looking for, but he stunts, he twists, he's it, he has incredible length. He's an incredibly good pass rusher already. And I feel like with Andre Patterson, a guy with his measurables could become a very good runstopper too. So I would keep an eye on him on the end. If you watch any of the jets of letter Taylor, I like that. Yeah. So I love the love child of Leonard Marshall and Lawrence Taylor. Yeah. I do like that call sound. If that comes true, it's going to be cool to remember back on this podcast in the middle of July, early July, you know, but why didn't we? I don't understand what we're looking for, right? Because if you seem to fit the bill, I'm like, oh man, this guy's a UDFA. This should be your first phone call. And I mean, maybe we come up with why he went to the jets. I don't know. Like the odds of that guy cracking that jets. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Anyway, but if we don't get a guy like him, this is a really good D line class again. Like we're lucky. There's back to back good years, but it might have to be early in the draft. So how high would you be willing to take it just to have that discussion with the value of D line, man? How high are you willing to go here? So it's I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to first round, but it also depends on where the giants are being what happened. Like right now, it's hard for me to project exactly where I want to put the value for our draft. It's going to happen next April when I don't know what happened this entire season, but I wouldn't be opposed to say if there was a player on the defensive line who would slide in there and just make this four man pass rush that much better. And there wasn't as many players around where this player is being selected in the first round that can complement the New York Giants roster and enhance the New York Giants roster as well as him. Then I'm not a stickler for spending a first round pick on a defensive lineman, even though we have Dexter Lawrence. Okay. And they almost spent 20 million 24 million a year at Christian Wilkins, so yeah, that's true. I put that poll out. I mean, saw it. I asked though, you know, yeah, I got a lot of traction and the results were I asked the question now that we know the Giants are willing to go after Christian Wilkins and it sounds like we're to find out what it sounds like. They changed plans once they got the opportunity to get Brian Burns, would you have rather just traded the pick like we did second and fifth, including pick 39 this year, get burns and pay him 28 and a half million, whatever you paid him, or would you rather just sign Wilkins for 27 million, get and keep that second round pick. I personally would have made the trade anyway. I think elite 25 year old ed rushers, 26 year old ed rushers, don't hit the market. And I do think Burns is elite. I know he hasn't quite hit his market, but I do think he has elite traits and he's going to be one of the top guys in the league. So I would have made the trade and I think 70% of people agree, but what did you guys think? Would you have done the same thing or would you have thought about just signing Wilkins and saving the pick? We discussed this a bit on our podcast, but for me, I'm actually personally not as high on Wilkins as other people are. And again, I want to qualify that by saying like, I don't have the time to watch all dolphins tapes. So I haven't seen much, but I did watch a breakdown of him against the Chiefs in that playoff game. And it was not what I'm looking for to allocate $20, $24 million a year to he was completely taken out of the game by the Chiefs and they have a good interior on the line. But again, like I just don't assume that type of thing will happen for Dexter Lawrence at his price tag or Brian Byrne. So to me, it's really the player difference there with, because yeah, you're going to get Cooper Eugene, by the way, if you get, if you're good enough to draft, if you don't trade 39. And then the other part of it, which I know to talk about in the podcast is you get Cooper Eugene at 39, you're probably not taking Drew Phillips and instead you're probably taking maybe Christian or baby or Christian. Yeah. It's like a big dominant effect. So it's like thinking about that, but I still don't care. I don't really like Christian will playing any Wilkins at that price. So I prefer Burns. I have, I think he's going to be a better player for the Giants. Yeah, I prefer Burns as well. Look, you're just trying to get players who have rare traits. You have a lot of guys who have rare traits in that defensive room right now. And I still not even sold on the defense in general, but you have rare traits with Brian Burns and you have rare traits with Dexter Lawrence, like truly rare. Yeah. I'm with you guys. It was close. See, my Wilkins has turned 29 this off the season. So it's, you know, he's older, he's older. He's older. Yeah. Yeah. Burns what? Just turned 26, I think. Yep. In April. So Dan, do you want to give us your last, our last one here? Yeah. I'll close out with our last one here. I could grab the low hanging fruit and take quarterback with my fourth choice, but I actually feel like we don't, if we, and we should do this in the future when we, when reconvene to break down all the traits we want out of a quarterback, I think it's its own podcast or at least its own segment for a lot longer, and I'd like to get everyone's thoughts. I'm not going to grab that fruit. I'm going to reach a little bit higher. I'm talking about something I've wanted on this roster for a while and what, and it could be any of three positions because I really do believe the third one even will be up for grabs depending on how the season goes. I've been looking for on this team a difference making from a strength standpoint, a pop standpoint, interior offensive lineman, and let me say this, there have been guys I've studied. When Frank Ragno came out of the draft, you can find it on Twitter, there's receipts all of them. I felt like he was worth a top 10 pick in the NFL draft. That's what it felt like watching his tape, the impact he made, and it was different than some of these other interior offensive lineman who've been ballyhoot over the years, even to a lot of extent, a lot of the center ones, the John Michael Smits is of the world, and even if you put Joe Tippman as the center one, these guys were not at that same level. I saw it a little bit, by the way, and watch a lot, but I saw a little bit about the kid from, I liked the kid a lot from West Virginia Frazier. He wasn't as big as Ragno though, what I'm looking for is more just like that difference making defining strength on the interior offensive line, especially because that will allow you to do so many different things from a power gap standpoint, which is really where Brian Dable and Mike Gaffkin have been at their best from designing the run game, but someone to really set the tone on the interior offensive line. I'm not so sure that's John Michael Smits right now, Jermaine Lumanor, or John Runyon. I think they can all be quality players and fill the role that they're asked to do, but I'm looking for somebody on the interior offensive line who sets the tone. Like a regular guy. I got a guy. Yeah, who is it? Yeah, the Neil. Yeah, but I don't think he ever was going to, I don't think he was ever going to be that guy either, even when we evaluated him, Nick, like what we thought his strength would be at the NFL. I'd never thought it was going to be that mauler in the run game personally. The other offensive guy was there off to lineman Aquano. Aquano was that. Yeah, he was. Was that. But I wanted on the interior. I don't want it at tackle. I think when there's so much wrong, too many things that go wrong at tackle. There's too many variables. But on the interior, when you find that rag now type, you know it. I knew it when I watched him and he's every bit as good as what he was drafted to be. Now, you're 100% right. The reason why I brought the Evan Neal thing was a few times that the Giants have run duo with Evan Neal and Andrew Thomas next to each other. It has been fun. Oh my God, dear. It's so much fun watching them just uproot this poor five technique and just drive him to the fucking moon. I think he could be a good, I think he made the guard. I mean, I actually, you know, we talked about this that we wanted to see Luminor and Neal just flat out from each of the jobs. I don't know if you guys agree in camp. Best man. And the way I look at it is if Evan Neal is the seventh overall pick in your third year, if you can't flat out beat like a league average right tackle, that's what I think Luminor is basically. Yeah. If you can't flat out beat him in camp, you're not a tackle anymore. And you might be a really good guard and guards are worth like 20 million a year if they're really good. Get your get your ass to guard and you don't go make some money and earn it because you're not going to earn an attack. My one point at ID. Yeah, go ahead. Let me go first. My one point of contention would just be because Evan Neal is is is not fully healthy right now. And I think train camp is might be like a period of kind of gradually getting ingratiated into the offense and then kind of going, I want to I want to give him that chance again. And I know this is just stupid for me one shame on you for me twice shame on me. And now this would be like the third time, right? I want to just try to get as much out of that investment. And if it doesn't work, then you go to guard and you can even do it in the season because a Luminor knows how to operate with Carmen Bursil. I think he's professional enough, but I think your point is solid though, Sal, like he should be able to be. It's just that injury is one bugaboo I have. The point is great. And in an ideal world, it makes sense to me, but my issues are one. I think that a lot of football and maybe more so a corner and especially a corner, but even at position like tackle is just confidence from an athlete and I think it'll just totally shoot his confidence. The way you have noticed how he's interacted and things he said, it could be a confidence killer for him, which could derail his career. The other thing is I just don't buy too much into training can't matter as much as other people do. Like I don't know if like a competition like none of these reps are really that like if the way only way I think it could really be done is week one, he's right tackle week two, it's a Luminor and week three, you do like a two game sample size of actual game to real games where they're actually competing, not in camp when there's really it's kind of football, but it's really feeling more like football to me. So that's the only way I could see they could ever do, but I don't think it's even whatever really do that. I don't think so. Yeah. I'll say to this because I've made the argument to Sal, I, you know, I completely hear where you're come from Dan, just ruining his confidence. That's, you know, I thought factually you really have to, I haven't take too much in consideration, but I should. But really is that I would just move Neil straight up the guard at this point. And that's it, right. Because the way I look at it is, you know, what Sal mentioned, how much these guys are getting paid. They're getting paid close to what tackles are getting paid. And I think, you know, I've listened to you guys podcast and I think, you know, we're all kind of agreeance. Like at this point, we're just hoping Evan Neal can be an average offensive tackle. To me, if you move them to guard their resets, my expectations, I don't know why you can be used. You saw guys like Sam caused me go from below average tackles to like all pro caliber guard. You saw it with Kevin Jenkins. You saw it with even Eric Flowers bought a couple of years ago. He went from totally terrible to like decent. Yeah. So, so you don't know, like maybe it could totally change his career. So like this, but yeah, the confidence part is, is something to consider now with this. Getting back to what you were describing though. So it sounds like you want somebody who was strong with good leverage because that was that the Zach Frazier was a leverage. It wasn't like an all state wrestler three time like all state champion wrestling or something like that. Or whatever. Yeah. Yep. Which you know, that's you can wrestle West Virginia. And he was the first freshman starter on the offensive line like 30 years at West Virginia. Right. So like Christian Haynes would have fit that bill perfectly. Yes. That's that strong leverage type guy. So okay. I wish we got Christian Haynes. It was so frustrating to watch him like fly down the board and that's not grab him. But yeah, that's also about the whole draft. All fit add on to what you're looking for, Dan, you know, kind of like with, you know, Ragnar, example, you know, those big, you know, movers, but you know, guys are athletes too, not just guys who have popped because they're big. Like, Ragnar was a sub sub four sub five, uh, 40 guy like to be fair. Like what I'm describing is not going to be in every class. What I'm describing is like the one few times where you say, okay, I can actually invest a top 15 on interior off the line because the NFL doesn't like to do that, but it's like, no, no, this guy you can do it on and he changes your whole offensive line. And it seems like, oh, it's tough to get these guys, but in reality, these, they do fault like the 10 15 range of fields. I don't know. Ragnar was what? Like 17 or something like that. Like I think it was mid teens that that's why he's range like right now, there's always fall. Linder bomb. Those are the two guys that come to mind that if it like the bill you're describing, right? So, but not a lot of those guys. Yeah, it's like when we were talking about early in the process two years ago, like John Michael Schmitz at 30 or the pick that they took, uh, Deontay Banks at that was not like I wasn't on board. That's not the type I'm talking about. And I don't mind trying to dissuade like John Michael Schmitz, I think he can be a lot better this year. I don't think they utilize them correctly at all personally from a schematic standpoint. They didn't use and I think he just playing next to those two guards hurt him a lot as a rookie. But I still want someone in addition to John Michael Schmitz could be a guard that plays next to him that really sets the tone from a physicality standpoint. Yeah. He's not a difference maker. He's a glue guy. He's building potentially all that, but like he's not going to change how you're off into line operates. I think that's one interesting conversation though that we can monitor throughout the year is John Michael Schmitz because last year to Dan's point and also the shit that he had to play next to he had to play next to a bunch of guy like I just recovered from a torn ACL who was a day three right next to him a dude who just came off the couch. Like he was not put into a good position from a continuity standpoint and from a competency standpoint with a teammates and that's a big deal when you're playing center and you're learning and you're trying to mentally process how to set certain things up and all of that. So I'm really hoping that Runyon and Illuminaur that that is a stabilizing factor to the development of John Michael Schmitz because if we swing a miss on Evanneal that is a huge indictment on Joe Shane, if we swing and miss on Evanneal and John Michael Schmitz, come on now. That's it. Yeah, at that point that's it. Do you think he would maybe hurt a lot by just being asked to block in a way that he just wasn't very good at in college? I mean, he was a pretty much a pure zone blocker, right? And I don't understand why the I completely agree with that. So I was saying they don't think they utilized him right. Yeah, why are you spending a top 60 pick on a guy just to not use him a guy who's like 25, 26 years old, whatever he was when he came out to not use him to his strength. Yeah, to not use him to his strength. It makes sense. Like if you were going to just throw anybody out, like I was more of a proponent of, and I like John Michael Schmitz a lot, but I was big on Ola with team me to get out of Michigan because I knew we could get him later. Right. I didn't see a lot of daylight between him and JAMA as I was like, JAMA is better, but Ola with team, he's a really solid plug and play kind of center. He gets the job done, nothing fancy. You can get him on day three, you know, and you can use that second round take on something else. Sure. I didn't hate taking JMS. I think it's a great tip. But then to use him, how they did, set him up for failure and then watch him fail and keep requesting, did you take the right kid, like did he all of a sudden become a basketball player? Like that doesn't make sense to me. I feel like we do that a lot. We take guys and we use them not to their strength. And I want to see that just stop, right? Use him as his own blocking player. We have a bunch of zone running running back, right? Every running back in that room is a guy who's a who's like a one cut zone zone retype running back. I'd like to see them actually block that weight this year. Yeah, that's a big step. I think we will. But what we'll say that obviously remains to be seen. I want to see the Giants. I'm sorry. The Giants did run more zone last season than they did in the previous year, like a considerable amount more. Do you have the numbers by any chance on that or? I just pulled up Sake 1 Barkley thing. So 2023, Sake 1 Barkley had 148 zone rushes, 93 gap in the previous season. It was 134 zone and then 170 gap. And I want to see. Yeah. So like I remember a lot more zone down the stretch of the season and it seems to check out here from the New England. Was he playing that? Who's that? John Michael. Yeah. How much did he play? He was hurt first on games. I don't have that right in front of just from the New England game all the way to the end of the season. Sake 1 Barkley himself had more than 10 or more zone rushes in every game except for the New Orleans game. Okay. So, but even some of those are like a lot of those are zone read though to like RPO and then it's a zone read. So I think the way pro football focus calculates it, it gets grouped in as a zone rush. So there are like a lot of variables to this. Yeah. It just didn't feel like that's when you were watching it. It didn't feel like that's what they were doing with it. I don't know. My bias at that point, but I just hope to use him to his strength and I don't think he's like a bad pig. I really don't think he's a bad player. I think he's fine. I just don't think he's a different, like I never thought he would be a bad player. I think that's what it comes down to because like even having him out that I still want to run power guy. I want to have a diversified rushing attack and just because that might not be his strength. I don't want that to hold the offense back because then it's like, dude, like, why are you even started? Why do we spend this pick on you? I think he can be functional as a power guy. It's just he's best when it's like, Oh, we're all blocking in one direction. Okay. I'm chipping. Okay. The guard from the backside's coming passing it off and now I'm climbing up to the second level and cutting off the angle of the safety or the wheel linebacker. I think that's where he's best and we saw a little bit of that last year, but it was a pass protection. That was kind of a bigger deal in my opinion. I feel like he was more of a liability in pass protection than maybe I expected from his Minnesota tape, which wasn't amazing in pass protection, but it was more than functional. I would say it was good. There were a couple of plays. There was a play against like Indiana, where he just, I think it was Johnny Newton actually just like to the side, no, you know, but yeah, so I want to see an improvement in pass protection specifically with JMS. I'll also say to some of my confidence that hopefully JMS and Neil can get better is, you know, I swear to God, those guys played their best football when they first stepped on for the Giants and then just got progressively worse every single game. They were under Bobby Johnson. So, you know, hopefully with a new coaching, you know, at least I can get back to where they started and move forward from there. We all got to hope that at least happens. All right. So anything else, boys, anything else that we got to go over with the New York Giants where what mid July right now, we got training camp. Are you guys going to training camp? No, I was, I was, I lost out on the weekend thick as I start got a new job. So I can't take a time off of the week, but I was trying to get one of those Sundays. Couldn't get it. They're always sold out. Damn. Yeah, I'm going to try to save my, I'm going to try to save my trips for like a game or to this year and get up there and we'll see if I've seen your role. We talk about that all the time. Like should we do? I mean, I'm going to have to build up some serious brownie points in my household. That's a mogul. It's a long time ago, dude, it's a great time. Did you guys go last year to see your role? I haven't been there since 2020, I think, but I went four years in a row and it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Bobby and Justin were telling us you guys come down. We were taught. So let me see. Well, I'll see if I can do that. It might end up being a time for Disney for my family. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. All right. If we don't have anything else, Dan, you want to lead us out in a typical Dan Schneider fashion? Yeah. I'm just going to say thank you to everybody tuning in to this crossover podcast. Very fun to do. We got the He's a Giant podcast. We have the Big Blue Bander podcast. You guys said, like I said, check them out during the season. And now they're going to start their summer scouting series. So you're going to get an inside look at some of these college prospects that Nick and I are not going to have a chance to dive into for another five months. So they're going to give you the heads up and they're going to keep going throughout the draft season. I assume I don't know for sure, but that's sure that's the plan. So keep it locked and loaded on both these pods. And obviously you guys know where to find us on Twitter. I hope by this point or wherever else you want to find our work. But otherwise, have a great rest of your week and we'll talk to you soon. [ Silence ]
