The Insurgents
Ep. 290: Dreadful Debate ft. Jack Crosbie
(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey, Jordan, how's it going? - Hey, Rob. - I'm on island time right now. - Yeah. - Jordan, you look like it. - Yeah. A little vacation. Take a little bit of time off. Of course, not from doing this show. I can't fully escape the never-ending Sisyphian content hamster wheel, but taking a bit of time off. You know, my kids finish school. I'm kind of with him the next couple of weeks. We've been having a nice time going swimming lately, going swimming in the public pool. You know, we're going to go see his grandma pretty soon. And tonight we watch the Sandlot. Remember the Sandlot? - Classic movie, of course I do. - Yeah. - A classic of American cinema. And I really, I actually do unironically believe that, honestly. I just think it's like, it's one of those movies that's just like-- - It absolutely is. - It just absolutely just does everything that it needs to do just to total perfection, you know? And it's just such a good coming-of-age movie. And it really reminds you of that like post-war period America. It reminds me of the promise of America, Jordan, the Sandlot, you know? There's a lot that I like to criticize about America. I hate America in many ways, particularly it's the role that America plays in the world, you know? Not Americans. Many Americans, I think, are wonderful people, like you. And the listeners of this program. - Made the song. Let's go. - Yeah, there we go. Canada is really bad as well. So it's, believe me, that's not coming from a place of snobbery or anything like that. But there's a lot of American culture that I really like. And I think a lot of that, you see it in the Sandlot. You know, what's more wholesome in America than, you know, playing baseball down at the local diamond with your friends on summer vacation, getting into adventures with your weird pals, you know? Going to the pool, you know, on the cusp of young adulthood, you know? There's something magical about that. And you know, the hot dogs and the carnival games and the local community cookouts and stuff like that, you know? I think there's something pretty cool about that. There's something I've talked about it before. - Cauling Wendy Peppercorn. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The classic thing that we all remember. - We all did that. - Yeah. That's what I mean. Like why can't America just have be that? Like why is it, would it be that hard if America could just be cool and chill for a little while and just embrace all those cool things like hot dogs and baseball and cold beers and fireworks and stuff and didn't, you know, mass murder people around the world to enforce its economic system and full hegemony at gunpoint around the rest of the world. You know? If we could just have the first part, leaving out the second part, I think America would be pretty neat. But unfortunately, you know, that's the second part is kind of a big deal. You know, it's a big hurdle to get over. - Yeah. - That's how we built out there. If you're talking about the American century, that's the, that's what got America to that point. - Yeah. So absolutely. - I think they are intertwined. I mean, I like it. I like the nostalgia for that period. But then when I think about it, I just like, I wouldn't want to live in that era. There's no cell phones. There's no Twitter. - That's true. - You know, it's just like, it was a little too sanitized. I think it was just a little too pristine. I like grit. I like cities with grit. - Sure. - So when I went to Berlin, I just like loved like a little, like how kind of how grimy it was. You know, New York certainly has its charm. And then you look at things like that, like the classic Americana, like the stereotypical Americana as it's depicted in movies like that or as we see in, you know, classic photographs or film. It's just a little too, yeah. I don't know. Like soulless, I think. I don't know. I just, I wouldn't like it. It's also, you know, pre-civil rights movement, Jim Crow era as well. - Oh, you had to get a lot of nasty stuff going on there. - Of course. - Yeah. - As well. - So perhaps you're right. - Oh, that was a given. - But yes. - Perhaps, yeah, perhaps where we overlook those things when we get into those nostalgia. - You brought it up. I mean, you were the one who wanted to go back to that. You were the, we must return guy for that. So. - Yeah. I mean, I guess when I'm the idealized version of America that I'm fantasizing about, maybe would be a little bit better on some of those issues as well. - Sure. - I mean, I'm still doing that. There's nothing stopping you from doing that. Like, the 4th of July this year, I'm grilling, baby. - It's coming up. - I got my, I got my- - I imagine you will be, yeah. - I pay a grill. Ricky's coming over. We're just gonna fucking grill. - I love that. - Grill and drink NA beers. - Yeah. - That sounds nice. - Yeah. - Well, we had a really good conversation earlier this week with Brian Metzger talking about the Jamal Bowman race. As probably everyone listening to this saw, APAC spent $14 million to NC Jamal Bowman. They were successful in doing so. You also probably saw a vast majority of pundits, commentators, just average people blaming APAC squarely for that loss. And while it was certainly a huge impact, it's hard to overcome that high of a level of spending, it is not the only reason why Jamal Bowman lost. There's a little bit of nuance, and we dug into that for about an hour with Brian Metzger of Business Insider. I thought that was a really good conversation that looked at all of the different ways that race went wrong for Bowman, from the makeup of his district to October 7th to honestly the fire alarm, a little bit of the conspiracy theories, and a lot more. It was a really, really good conversation with Brian. What did you think? - Yeah. I thought it was good. I think it was interesting to dig into that nuance. Of course, no one wants to downplay the seriousness of a lobbying arm for a foreign government, just dumping millions and millions of dollars into races like that. I think there is a balance between acknowledging how dangerous that is, while also not giving groups like APAC this kind of mythological power to just buy off any seat that they want, which I think we talked about is not really as possible as maybe they would like to have you believe. I did see some speculation as well that they went after Bowman because of his stances on Israel, but also there is almost like this tactical decision to enter a race where he was severely weak already to kind of give people that illusion, that they have the ability to decide these kind of races, which isn't completely accurate. But yeah, I think that was a really interesting discussion. We took a little bit about some of the protests from the left that Bowman has been facing. I think that's a really interesting discussion to get into as well. I mean, I saw a lot of people like when that stuff was going on, kind of accusing these Palestinian advocacy organizations like in our lifetime of doing APACs bidding and stuff like that, which I find pretty problematic and probably not a super helpful way of framing that. That was an interesting angle to the discussion. I think it's an interesting race to dig into. That kind of reveals a lot about where American politics are at right now in general. So really encourage people to check that one out. If you want to listen to that, please, that's for our beloved paid interns and you can subscribe at InsurgencePod.com to listen to that and all our other fabulous bonus content. Yeah, that was a really good one. I really liked our conversation. I think you all will as well. In coming up tonight, we've got Jack Crosby returning guest, often seen in Rolling Stone and, of course, discourse blog, Jack joined us to preview the presidential debate, the first of what will probably be many presidential debates between Trump and Biden. But also we took a closer look at Sherrod Brown's race in Ohio. This is basically a red state now and he is a longtime Democratic senator. His race could determine the control of the Senate, but he is a beloved figure in that state and it's a really unique race with the way the political system is and the political makeup in this country is now. So he gave us an update on his reporting on the ground in Ohio and a whole lot more. It was fun. We also made some predictions for VP picks. Yeah, I always do appreciate when Jack comes on the show. We didn't get much into the whole angle, the debate angle about the presidential drug test. Some people are demanding, but I did go ahead and take a look at some of the various pharmaceutical drugs that both Biden and Trump have possibly had access to at the White House and I'm on a big fist full of those right now. It's getting late and I'm a sleepy guy as well. So that's how I'm raring to go and I keep it mentally sharp right now is we're podcasting into the late hours. So a little health tip for people. If you want to look at the really good stuff, you just check out what those two guys are getting access to 'cause it's primo. Yeah. Well, let's get into our conversation with Jack Crosby. Let's do that after reminding people as well to subscribe over on youtube.com/theinsurgents where we are making more of an effort to have a little bit more of a presence there, uploading lots of cool stuff over on YouTube as well as full episodes of the show and clips as well. So please subscribe over on YouTube as well to help us out. And yes, let's get to our conversation with Jack Crosby. He's going to be joining the show right after this. Jack, I saw in the background, you had some soccer on, are you watching Copa America? Yeah, I got a Venezuelan Mexico on behind me. And I was saying earlier that my interests are kind of opposed in this game because as a US fan, the only healthy type of nationalism, I can't root for Mexico. But I also have a Venezuelan friend who I don't like very much and I don't want him to be happy. So it's hard to root for Venezuela. But I've told my buddy Luis that tonight, conditionally, I will be there for him. So we're rooting for Venezuela tonight. But it can't root for Mexico. You just can't root for Mexico in soccer. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's not. Everything else. I want them to thrive. I want them to succeed. Soccer. It sucks because like Mexico fans are like 90% of the reason that soccer is good in the United States now that we have like a flourishing and growing soccer culture and the Mexican jerseys are admittedly sick, like always, they're really cool. And yet, no, I simply will not be rooting for them ever. Even when they have like a young and fun team and you like want them to make kind of an insurgent run at the World Cup, but I'm also like, no, actually, they should go out in the group stage every time. That would be really funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes in sports, that's it. If you're not fully invested, you got to just go with whatever fandom you hate the least. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Make decisions based on that. That's why it was so difficult to see the Celtics win the NBA title. Even the team is pretty likable. I like a lot of guys on the team, but can't say I'm thrilled that some of those folks were happy. Right. I mean, Boston sports, you hate to see it, although I do have a saucepot for the Celtics because for a while there, they were like the only one in the most annoying era of the Los Angeles Lakers fandom and like the Celtics were the only ones that could sort of compete with them for a long time. I was rooting for the Celtics often during that era as well. Yeah. I went to college in Southern California, like right during that era and it was just it was just so annoying. I can imagine. I imagine what it would be like being like in New York, but not a Yankees fan and like the peak sort of dynasty of a few years before that and it just yeah, insufferable. So that Mexico and Venezuela game is at so far stadium in Inglewood. And when this tournament started, I looked at what games would be here in Los Angeles. And of course, Brazil on Monday night, which seemed interesting, but then I saw this game and I thought about it for a minute. It's like, Oh my God, Mexico's playing in Los Angeles. It's probably going to be fucking crazy. And then I really thought about it like, Oh my God, Mexico's playing in Los Angeles. That is going to be crazy and I totally immediately it's like, there's no way I'm going. It's has to be just fucking madness there. It's going to that is probably a crazy fun environment. But I also just it's I don't know, it still feels like enemy territory, even though it's in the US, just like that there are biggest rival in the sport. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think like the like L.A. soccer culture specifically is just like because it's such a heavily sort of Mexican American community and stuff like that that yeah, it's like, we definitely have home field advantage with that's why we always play Mexico in like Columbus and stuff like that, like in Ohio, we're just like, like listen, if you're going to outnumber us in the stands, like, you know, at least, at least we're not going to do it. Just like literally a two and a half hours over the borders. Yeah, yeah, but when the World Cup is in North America in 2026, I'm going. So if I stadium is one of the big venues, there's going to be several group stage games a quarter final, and I think two round of 32 games all at SoFi, I'm dying to go to at least one of them, like that just be so much fun. I think if I remember correctly, when was the last World Cup in the US? It was 92 or 90 94 is it? It was 92 or 94. Yeah. I can't remember. It was 90, it must have been 94 because South Korea was 98. No, France was 98. No, South Korea was 2000 to France was 98, South Korea was O2, then Germany was O6. So the 94 World Cup, I'm pretty sure that my dad drove down to L.A. to watch a game. At least in my recollection, he did, however, I was 4 years old and I did not get to go, which kind of a dick move by my dad to not take his 4 year old son who would not have remembered it to a World Cup game, but you know, as formerly the dad of a 4 year old, I think your dad made the absolute correct decision in that case, I'm sorry to say. Yeah. Sorry to take your dad's side on this. You know, that's fair. If I had a 4 year old on this World Cup, I would absolutely do the same thing and you know, 30 years from now, I would be fine if my then 4 year old held it against me. Yeah. I did send my wife last night an Instagram post that was like me explaining to my partner what will happen. It was just the Kendall Roy, like I feel like if I don't get to do this, I might die as a hustle and go into World Cup games and I was like, yeah, I just, I will spend any amount of money on the ones that are in New Jersey and New York. Yeah. I'm going to get the meeting and watch succession. I get the meme. I can figure out fucking context. It's all you guys talk about. That show was unavoidable for years. Like I will get it. I can figure it out. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you 5 years from now and you watch it Oh dude, like with Breaking Bad and all these other shows that you didn't watch. Dude, it's so good. Yeah. We were talking about this. It's going to be like 15 years. You know, we were telling you about this show shows that everyone's watching. Yeah. Yeah. House of the Dragon, not loving it so much. House of the, it's really dragon again. Wow. I was trying to watch the second episode before we got on this call. But it's rough, man. It's just people talking indoors and castles and I'm like not into it. And I was saying to some other friends, like you think back to that and obviously I'm sure the budgets are different, but like you think back to that first season of the original Game of Thrones and like everything was outdoors and it was green and they were like riding horses through the trees and shit and there were like big wolf dogs and like stuff was happening outside. And I feel like this House of the Dragon show, it's just like they're either like talking in a room in a castle or it's like a kind of shitty green screen or like they're on a beach. And I'm like, I'm not super interested in all those things. I don't even like the beach like in real life. So I don't need to see it, you know, with dragons. I've been really liking it and I got to say I was impressed because when the first season started, I was like, okay, there's no way I'm getting sucked back into this dragon bullshit. You know, I got burned before I'm not going to take it seriously. I'm not going to start thinking about the theories and reading about the lore, none of that stuff. I'm just going to kind of watch it like as it almost as a joke, you know, just like, yeah, just so I'm from a where the culture and then three episodes in. I'm just like, I'm hooked right, right back into the Westeros mentality and Westeros maxing again. And I like it. I don't know. And this day also, it does the official stance of this show as well and Jordan agrees with this, that Queen Renaria Targaryen is the rightful ruler of Westeros. The idea that it's even confusing to anybody is just strange to me. King Viserys very clearly indicated that she was the heir. This whole like this dispute that happened based on this kind of like deathbed mind changing. I mean, who who's who believes this who's, you know, I don't I don't get it personally, but that's the official. No, no, being being being team, team Renaria is like the only the only logical and moral change. Like it's like these people have never lived in a monarchy before. Like he clearly said she's my successor, you know, like, and frankly, like we do in here. It is sexism to say that a woman isn't isn't the queen, you know, like, yeah, yeah. What I like to do is Jordan, like shaking his head like he's above this when he's into all these like RPG card games of skewer, obscure card battle card game in the world. And the ring is obscure. Give me a fucking break. No, I don't want to watch dragon fights for like eight years every Sunday night that doesn't sound interesting. Is it is it is it or is it not true that they just released like an Assassin's Creed themed run of magic, the gathering cards or did I make that up somewhere? I don't do any of the like secret layer like any of the sides that they do any of like the IP tie ins. I don't do I know they do the Lord of the Rings one and it looks cool. But I don't I don't. Yeah. He's a purist. He's not he tie ins from other, you know, nerdy fantasy series. It's not even that. I just I just don't do it because it doesn't go into the format that I play. There's like a format called standard, which is like the set rotation. And then you can go straight to modern, which is like everything for fucking decades. All of those go in straight to modern. I don't play modern. I play standard. So I don't even I don't even follow it. So you're like you're a trad magic player. Yeah, we're really into making bread, traditional gender roles, you know, the important stuff. Yeah. Western, Western values. Yeah. Land based land based economies Jordan Jordan Jordan every every round he takes one of the one of the land cards and like puts it off to the side and is like this is my homestead. Now, like you can't you can't put any other cards on it here. Yeah. No, I don't know where I'm going with that. Game of Thrones just never seemed interesting. I know people love it. I just I never got into it. It just doesn't seem that like something I would enjoy. The only fantasy thing I've ever watched really in that type of fantasy was Lord of the Rings. That was it. Oh, well, that's a good one. That's good. Yeah. We're going to New Zealand for a honeymoon and I do want to go to Hobbit world. Nice. Yeah. That sounds fun, right? Yeah. I did that when I was like 15 or 16, I think, and I don't remember it super well, but it was I remember it being really cool. I had like a on my in in like the end of high school and like my cool messenger bag that I started carrying instead of a backpack. I had the like little little Lori and like leaf pen that I had like on the outside of my messenger bag that I like put pins on, you know, because that's what the cool. Yeah. Pop hot kids are doing. Back then. Yeah. Those hobbits had it all figured out. I don't know. I always I always watched the Hobbit lifestyle in the early moments of those movies as like man, this just seems really like a great time. There's a lot of feasting, gardening, drinking beer down at the pub with your friends. If I was a Hobbit living that kind of lifestyle and someone was like, Hey, we got a you got to come in this big dangerous quest. It's like, no, absolutely not. No, I'm going to be. I'm not going to. I'm not involved. This has nothing to do with me. Leave me out of this. They were they were fully unplugged, man. Yeah. We're like, you know, truly just like living off the grid unplugged and then Gandalf and Sarman were like, you know, here's some volunteers, like get into social media and look what it did to them. Yeah. It's all in the analogy about how kids be on their phones too much these days. Yeah. Yeah. I'm depressed. I might not I might not come back once I get there. I'm just gonna. Yeah. It looks beautiful. And I did hear it was cool, even from people who live there now, I was talking to somebody who lives there and his parents live in like that city, like that actual city nearby. And even he was saying, like, even though it's touristy, it's very cool. So I hope to hope to make it. But Jack Crosby. Welcome back. We're happy to have you. Thanks for having me again. You, you're in Ohio, the greatest state in the country, the heart of it all. You're in North. Here I am. I'm in. I'm in Ohio. If I were to turn my laptop camera around, you would see, see instead of a very dingy double tree motel, you would see the great shores of Lake Erie and Cleveland, or you would if it were daylight outside, but it's not. Yeah. Here I am. I'm working on some political stories out here for the next like week or so, and then headed back to New York, but I'm gonna try and catch the debate. I think I'm gonna go to like a local, like county, democratic, like women's caucus, like debate, watch party tomorrow night, which should be kind of fun at some bar up in kind of like Shaker Heights, University Heights area. So that'll be a, that'll be an experience. So we definitely want to get into the debate, but I'm curious you're there. You're reporting on the Senate race in Ohio, Sherrod Brown is, he's a, he's a political legend in Ohio. And I think despite being a Democrat, he is beloved by a lot of Republicans or has been by a lot of, even Republicans in my own family who live in Ohio always appreciated him and respected him. This is business been the norm for years because he's on controversial. He's clearly stood up for Ohio workers for years. And there's also this kind of folksy charm about him, you know, his wife is a columnist, like a legendary columnist and I think parade, Connie Schultz, I believe. And yeah, people just like them, people in Ohio like them, but we are, that was always the case. We were in a totally different political environment now. Is this race different? Is he vulnerable in what was otherwise just his seat cycle after cycle? So I mean, I think it's, it's a little bit too early to tell. And I haven't, I just got down here yesterday. So I haven't spent too much time with Sherrod yet. I saw him, I was down at the Cleveland Cliffs, like a steel, steel facility earlier today. He did press conference there with a bunch of United steelworkers bosses and stuff like that about some of the trade policies that are letting like Mexican and Chinese steel kind of subvert US regulations and guidelines and get through, which is sort of putting the squeeze on, on the Cleveland areas. It was, it was all, you know, a very, a very Sherrod Brown, old school Sherrod Brown type event. It's kind of too early to tell. I think the last time I checked the polls on him, which I guess I should probably be doing a little more often, but a couple of days ago, I looked, I think he was up about five points or so on, on Bernie Moreno, his opponent. It's, it's, it's a very difficult landscape, but like everyone I've talked to now, I think it's a very democrat, different landscape, but Sherrod Brown is very much the same. I think that's what a lot of people have, have talked about him as and what I'm sure, you know, your parents and other people will say is that he's like, he's pretty much been like remarkably consistent. He's sort of, I mean, he has the same, a similar sort of effect to like Bernie Sanders in that, in that effect, they're, you know, their politics aren't one to one exactly the same, but they've been like very consistent as to what they are and as to what they're sort of like key hot button issues are and have just been sort of relentlessly consistent and focused on those for the entirety of their careers. And so I think like that you have like the normal name recognition of a politician, but I think like with Sherrod, it's like you have name recognition, but you also have like value recognition with him, maybe, and that like, you hear his name and you know what he is, but you also like, you don't have to check back, like when I hear like Hillary Clinton or something like that, I have to reread her Wikipedia page like every time I try and think back like, oh, what did she support and when, you know, or something like that with Sherrod Brown, it's kind of like, well, this is, you know, this is who he is, he's been the Ohio workers guy, he's been like, at least nominally for more like fair trade policies as opposed to free trade policies. And he's been like a very staunch, like, you know, as soon as you don't pay the proper respects to the union, Sherrod Brown comes like rumbling at you, you know, with his yeah, it just comes like screaming at you from somewhere, right? My editor and I have been joking that he's like, your, your challenge is basically to like go as far as you can in the piece before you describe Sherrod Brown's voice as gravelly, like, that's the challenge for anyone doing Sherrod Brown is like, you can't like, you can't like, I'm just going to try to my first draft like rule out using the like the adjectives like gravelly or like, steely to describe anything that he does because it's just like too much. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it seems, it seems like that that's certainly the narrative that, you know, his staff and his campaign very much want to push. So like his, you know, his comms team really coming on strong with that, but we'll, we'll see how the next few days go and kind of how he does. But it does feel like, you know, if there's, if there's anyone who can put together a successful Senate campaign in a state that's, you know, almost at double digits plus Trump right now, it's, it's Sherrod Brown. And I guess the worry for Democrats is is like, if that doesn't work this year, then what? And if it does work this year, then like what happens when we run out of Sherrod Browns or we can't find any more Sherrod Browns anywhere else. Even though the gravelly voice description is cliche, I do think that is one of the things that makes him endearing. It's like he's the quintessential old school blue collar Democrat. Like if you were to just engineer one in a lab, it is almost certainly him. When, when we're at the, the steel facility this morning, we're all kind of like standing around like waiting for people to come in. And Sherrod was entering with a bunch of the union reps, the USW like international president and some of the local bosses and the, then the CEO of Cleveland Cliffs as well. But everyone's wearing like orange hard hats and, and eye protection and, you know, it was big day. The classic thing, the politicians and the journalists all get to put on a little outfit or something like that and feel like they're, you know, actually doing something. But you know, that's being cynical, but you know, and so Sherrod comes in and I didn't like, I know what Sherrod looks like. I've seen him, you know, on TV and seen him speaking and everything like that. And like he comes in and I didn't realize until he was like halfway across the room talking to people that I was like, oh, oh, oh, that's him. Because he just, he looked like all of the other guys. It was just like a whole bunch of like, you know, kind of scrably looking like gray haired dudes, like doing big handshakes and like, you know, making union guy noises at each other. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. That's, that's on the Simpsons with the Teamsters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. So like you mentioned, we've got the debate tomorrow night and we've seen what I believe to be an effort by the right to game the refs already. Now they've complained about Jake Tapper and Dana Bash and things that they've said and reactions that they had after 2020 debates and they're complaining they're whining it's going to be unfair. And I'm wondering, first of all, if that's going to have any impact, but second, whether it was where he pointed out a video that CNN released earlier, that's almost like what a debate is for babies, like very simple explanation, like these are the timers. These are the buttons. And a lot of these rules are so Trump doesn't just dominate the conversation, doesn't interrupt. Do you think like if let's say Trump has a rough night, is that going to register for Republicans because it does seem like they're already trying to make excuses for what could be a bad night for him? I mean, what does a bad night for Trump even look like at this point? Yeah. Great question. Like I just, I just don't Trump's biggest rhetorical advantage as a politician in all of this is that he doesn't make any sense to begin with. He just says like he speaks almost in like simlish and then like every like third or fourth sentence is like a really funny or just like sticks in your brain. And so it doesn't like, I'm just trying to think like in a debate with Biden, you know, you can't really get Trump doesn't really get like lost for words. And when he does, he just resorts to something, you know, basically irrefutable, just going like, no, no, wrong, wrong or something like that. So a bad night for him, maybe like he gets trapped into those corners a little bit more. Like people talks a lot about in the 2020 election cycle, how Biden was actually like one of the best people to debate Trump because he, you know, also barely makes sense and isn't really like doesn't appear to be fully comprehending everything that's being said a lot of the time. And so his reaction to a lot of Trump's just sort of like spaghetti flying at the wall was to just do a been used like get a load of this guy isn't he being crazy. So I just, I don't really understand with the narrative around Trump right now, what a bad night for him looks like, because, because basically, you know, all he has to do, and I've seen this, like, I've seen this people talking about this online, like all he really has to do is come out and look sort of like strong and confident and like speak, if not clearly, you know, loudly and forcefully and say the right, like three buzzwords that are the core of every GOP stump speech, and people will go crazy for him. And I think like, I mean, as we all know, like the debates don't really exist to like do a whole bunch other than just sort of like create TV for the network that gets them. So you know, I think it's, it's always been strange to me that Trump has been so resistant to debates because I really don't think that they're like, there's a whole lot that he can lose by doing them. I'm just thinking about this like mythical American voter that's tuning into the debate being like, like it's like it's Kennedy Nixon or something being like, I'm gonna see where these two stand on the issues here, and then I'm gonna make up my mind about this. Like I'm, I'm sure these people do exist, but it's just, it's just kind of incredible to me. These people that are floating around out there that are still kind of like, kind of, kind of on the fence on this one. It seems like most people have kind of have their mind made up either way already. And I don't know that there's a lot of like minds being, hearts and minds being changed here. But like you said, Jack, it's just, it's a, it's TV, it's wrestling, it's cutting promos on each other and, and cutting them up for some online engagement as well. And you know, any, any, the, the really like partisan brain viewers are just going to, the Democrats will say Biden won, the Republicans will say the Trump won, and nothing will really be accomplished or resolved in any way I imagine. I think, I mean, the pitfalls are really for Biden, at least because the prevailing media narrative around him is so much more critical, both in terms of his policies, which, which he's an incumbent. So that's like, it's a, it's a gift and a curse is an advantage and a disadvantage. It's a disadvantage in this case, and that like, you know, his actual policies are much more on trial and they're much more fresh in people's minds. So he, you know, he has to be able to effectively, you know, defend those to moderators who I'm sure are not going to be super nice to him. I mean, you know, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash aren't, aren't Fox news hosts, but they're also not like, you know, these are not MSNBC sort of like Democratic homers that are, you know, really just going to try and prop them up. And so it's like, I feel like Biden has a lot to lose if he comes out because the narrative is about him just being too old and infirm to be able to do this. And if he doesn't come across as coherent and, and, you know, logical and, and, and then also with the added burden of like he has to be able to effectively defend himself against whatever the hell Trump is going to try and sling at him, you know, and if he doesn't accomplish basically all those things, it's kind of a net loss for him, I think, because then he can't, he can't draw that. The contrast between him and Trump requires a lot more from Biden than it does from Trump, I think. Yeah, I got to say too, on the issue of like Biden's kind of cognitive decline or whatever you want to call it. And first of all, I think Trump is cognitively impaired as well. And his like old man, senility manifest more in these like stream of consciousness pop culture references. So I don't want to say that Trump's this like this super sharp guy or anything. I don't really believe that. But when you talk about Biden, though, I did go back the other day to set of curiosity to watch some of the highlights of Biden's debate with Paul Ryan back in 2012, which I really I remember watching it live and just like being so amazed at how handily Biden completely handed Paul Ryan his ass in that debate and was just like very sharp, very charismatic. And you really see the decline like when you go back to look at Biden's speeches, like even recently, like that was 2012 is 12 years ago, not that long ago, but even as recently as like 2016, 17, you can really see this really, really noticeable difference in his ability to kind of think on his feet and and talk that way. But I do really remember that debate and Biden just constantly, you know, laughing and Paul Ryan's face. I think you should bring that move back. I thought that was that was a that was a fun debate move by by 2012 Biden just constantly laughing and chuckling at the the young upstart Paul Ryan and his his bullshit that he was trying to just spout there. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to like massively retcon history or anything, but like it does make you think when you think back to the success of that debate and like even to an extent, the success of like how he did in in the 2020 cycle as well, if you think like, man, if we had gotten Biden versus Trump in 2016, like that would have been, you know, they kind of and and I I understand why the prevailing wins within the Democratic Party went the way that they did, you know, Hillary had been the clearly tapped successor for such a very long time, but it's kind of like, man, you should give an old man Joe is shot four years earlier and we probably would have been in a completely different place, but I run more successfully than we were able to pull off as well. But I I last it's the utopian future that America is going to be denied, unfortunately. Yeah, the utopian future where we have a Hillary Clinton president, yeah, exactly. It was wanted, which I mean, yeah, sure. Would have been better than our current situation, but also, oh my God, can you imagine a Hillary Clinton presidency in the current situation in Gaza right now, though, that would just like, I mean, the Biden presidency has been horrific enough, but like, it's hard to see how it could start. I don't want to very well. I don't want to very well. Could be. Yeah. I don't know. It would be much different, honestly. Yeah. I it would be should be more forward facing like she would have more speeches, more press conferences, like to justify. I think the only difference would be aesthetic, but policy wise, I don't I don't know how different it would be. She would she would be more indignant and more inflammatory in her pushback against criticism, I think, but yeah, you're right. I think the policy like because it also seems like after a certain point, you know, the Biden was giving full throw to defenses of Israel for months and months and months, but then it did sort of feel like after a certain point, the Biden administration's like tenor on defending what they've they're doing in Israel has just kind of gone from like, you know, of course, we're doing this, they're our best ally to like, well, we're doing it. Yeah. The press conferences that we've been seeing, like you're talking about with like, Matt Miller, you know, Matt Miller's doing one. They've been they've been grilling him on the whole, uh, hind situation, um, where this young girl was trapped for multiple hours and her car was intentionally shot up with hundreds of bullets, um, with a tank, she was clearly on the line with Red Cross trying to be evacuated and communicating this to everyone. And you know, you see, you see Matt Miller out there still trying to bend doing these like matrix like maneuvers to bend over backwards and obscure and obfuscate and justify. And it's always this, this promised series of investigations that Israel is going to be conducting, of course, and it's just absolutely painful to see these, these bureaucrats still out there after with, with everything that we've witnessed over the last nine months, making excuses for this and using this, employing this kind of like HR department language to, to, uh, whitewash these like horrific crimes. It's just like it's, I still am not over it every time I see it, it's, it's truly horrifying. Yeah. It's the, the, the clearest example of that I think was a few weeks, maybe a couple months ago. I have no sense of time anymore, but, um, I don't know if you saw the clip, it was a clip from a, um, state department, uh, press briefing, I think, um, which in like the, the state department reporting corps is actually like pretty good and like quite sharp. Um, they get a lot of good questions through there and I forget who was talking, um, whether it was, uh, I don't know, some underling at state or something like that. Um, and who had said like basically like we're letting Israel like define like their own, like what their definition of, you know, war crimes are or something like that. But, um, like as far as we know right now, like nothing that they have, they have done has like met our definition of war crimes and the, like the question was basically like, what does that mean? Like, are you saying that like your definition of war crimes is what they say their definition of war crimes is that they are investigating themselves to define or something like that. Like, I'm, I'm butchering my recollection of this, but there was just like a really sharp pointed question that like the, the response from it was just so like, patently just incoherent that, that it was just like, what are like, what are we doing here? Like, why are you even up there answering questions? If this is like the best you can give us there. I, one of the reporters that I really appreciate in there is Prem Tucker of the intercept who has been on this story for months, just hammering them on, um, Heinrich Jobs killing just from February on almost like every couple of weeks, hey, what's the latest? Where are you on this? You said you're going to investigate what's happening. And then, you know, Israel comes out and says, well, we went to the Red Cross or the Red Crescent, sorry, um, in the UN and they didn't give us any information on this. And then those organizations came out and were like, no, Israel never came to us for information on this. They're lying. And it was another one of those moments where it's just like, it was a great question from him, uh, the other day where he said, Hey, how can we even trust Israel to investigate itself? And Matt Miller kind of stumbled around, didn't know how to answer, invoked the whole, like Israel said, they reached out for information from the Red Crescent and from the UN, which is again, a lie, but just we're letting them set the terms, the US is letting Israel set the terms on war crimes on their own behavior on these investigations. And they expect us to just accept, okay, well, they investigated themselves and they found they did nothing wrong. And it's just, it's remarkable that, of course, the US does that as well, um, whenever something bad happens, it'll investigate itself. Of course, it's just, it's just so clearly not effective. It's, it's so clearly tainted and has, they have an interest in the outcome. But when this situation is so dire and is so awful, um, it's remarkable that that is acceptable policy anywhere. Yeah, I'm sure any one, any day now, one of these investigations is going to, uh, return some, some results and they're going to get to the bottom of some of these, uh, some of these accusations, uh, you know, just got to give them a little bit more time to keep looking into it, I guess. It's also funny, like the, the like sort of one step removed that Israel has by the US, basically acting as their buffer on an international scale. Cause when I'm thinking about like, you know, when the US says like it's investigating itself and they're like, actually we did nothing wrong when we, you know, sent a predator drone to blow up a wedding or something like that. What has happened, I'm thinking back to like when there have been really good independent investigations of war crimes, the, um, you know, the strike on the aid worker in Afghanistan, um, right before the fall of Kabul and things like that. You know, all these that various, the times and the posts and all these various places have been like winning polluters for these investigations where they've actually nailed the US with like very conclusive evidence. The US in those situations at least has been like, okay, fine, like we fess up, it's our bad and they'll promise like, you know, concert, nothing will actually happen, but they will at least like admit fault in those. But it's funny now because we've seen those similar kinds of like very conclusive, like exhaustively laid out investigations happening on what Israel's doing and it'll get there and then they'll bring those to the US government because you can't really like bring them to Israel because Israel of course won't do anything with them and the US government, they can't like fess up for Israel's own error even under a standard that like previously they have like, when shown evidence of that nature, they've been like, actually, you know, yeah, we did do it. And so it's just like, but this is like, well, you know, we're still not sure the Israelis are still investigating, like, we're going to wait to hear it from them first. And it's like, we, like, we all know exactly what you're hearing from them, like it's yeah. One thing I want to get your thoughts on back to the election back to Trump and Biden before we, before we wrap up Trump says his VP pick will be at the debate. He hasn't announced who it is. Nobody knows. Apparently, nobody knows, but maybe some people do in a circle might give any predictions. Do you have any idea of who Trump's VP pick might be? I mean, you got it. I don't know who the current like front runner is right now. You got to think that Vance wants it. The last time I was in Ohio, I was covering the Republican Senate primaries in 2022 when Vance was elected. And I feel like I said it at the time either on this podcast or another one or something like that. I have never seen a person campaigning in Ohio in Ohio who, like, so desperately wanted to leave the state of Ohio and, like, so palpably, like, did not want to ever come back to the state of Ohio as like J.D. Vance in that state. And like, you know, if he does not even six years in the Senate, if he does two years in the Senate and hops right to, right to VP, I think that's like, I mean, that's, that's, the J.D. Vance jackpot right there. Like, that's what he was going for. He went from like, you know, mushy New York Times bestseller, device president in like a speed run, like, you know, hats off to the guy and to Peter Teal, like, you did it. So I don't know if I want to make that my official prediction, but I do think and now I'm just, I'm going to just speculate wildly, talk out of my ass here. It makes a certain amount of sense, right? He needs, he needs a guy, he needs a guy who I feel like the Republican establishment is going to feel way more comfortable with J.D. Vance because they know that, like, the thing about Trump's crazy is like, he means all the crazy, like, it's all due to just whatever whims he's like going for and they don't really know. J.D. Vance will do whatever the hell he like, whatever the hell the establishment or whatever makes him the most money and fame and everything. He's like a uniquely, you know, adaptable and mercenary politician. And he's smart and he's well connected in all these ways that like sort of the traditional, still traditionalist wing that gets a little bit iffy whenever Trump flies off the handle or something like that is going to be like, and to have someone like that sitting in the VPC behind a like, clearly getting older, clearly visibly like ailing Trump, but having someone who has proven at least that in proximity to Trump and winning that race in 2022 in Ohio can connect with the sort of the MAGA audience, like, I feel like that's kind of best case scenario for them. And it could be a whole bunch of other people, but I don't know, you got to think that J.D.'s J.D.'s, you know, really looking for it. Rob, what do you think? Any predictions? I think Vivek Ramiswamy is a possibility. I haven't given it much thought. I'm going to be perfectly honest with that. I think the young, upstart, conservative, libertarian guy, Stik, would be Vivek Ramiswamy. I think the out of left field celeb pick, you know, who's not doing anything right now, Vince McMahon. He's been canceled and he's going to come back. And I think this is why- They are close. Exactly. They are really close, yeah. If he's going to go for the crazy, like, violence, like, billionaire, he should just go straight for Dana White. Like, why do the kayfabe, if you can get the real blood sport guy? You know? It's Arthur Migrant Fighting League. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, because I think ultimately Trump's a carny guy at heart, even though he's this like East Coast, rich, realistic guy, I think, ultimately, he's a carny guy. And that's how he gained a big platform, a big political platform is by Bianna Heel. You know? That's how he did it. So that's what I think. If I was in Trump's advisory inner circle, that's what I would advise. I don't really think it's going to happen, though. So at your peril, sir, I hear you, Jack, on the JD Vance thing. I think that's, it could go that way. I wouldn't rule out Tim Scott just because he is so like deferential and loyal to Trump in a very pathetic way. So just in terms of ass kissing, it could be Tim Scott. Here on Vivek, he's young. He brings a lot of energy. Young people seem to like him if they see that as a vulnerability for Biden, which is definitely the case. There were a lot of young people that were behind Rama Swami. However, this is something I didn't expect. Predict it. And certainly predicted markets can be wrong, but the top candidate in the predicted markets right now is Doug Burgum. And that's just like so confusing to me. Just like talk about an out of left field. We're always, we're always talking about the Doug Mentum over here. We've been, we've been on this for a while, I think we're always talking about this guy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm bullish on Doug. Yeah. My, my celeb pick though, I like those, but I feel like Tucker Carlson would be a pretty effective surrogate for Trump. He's already got a loyal fan base also very younger, taps into the like the bar stool type culture people. I don't think he would want it, but I am a little concerned that it could be someone like him. I think I'm not as worried about Tucker now because, because I think when it comes to, when you think in like Trump mindset, like Tucker's a loser now. He got booted off Fox. Like he's doing his thing on Twitter, you know, which Trump is probably a little jealous of because he can't be on Twitter anymore. But like, you know, like Tucker's like, he's kind of a loser. Like he hasn't like Trump's probably not like watching him every day like he was before. He's not on his, you know, he's not on his cable screens everywhere. And so, I mean, yeah, I think, I think you're right, he'll be a great surrogate for it, but I'm not sure if he, if he's really, you know, still, still got it up there. Trump loves ratings like he's obsessed with ratings, you know, and like, I don't think Tucker's doing numbers anymore. That's what Bergen brings Bergen. Exactly. When he's when he's when he's when he's on the screen, we're talking about him when he's not there. We're saying, where's Doug? Where'd you go? Where? He is a force. Well, we'll apparently find out tomorrow night and we'll be watching and we'll be looking at Jack for more insight as this election develops Jack, where can people follow you and find more of your work? I'm on Twitter, rarely at JSCROS. That's my handle on pretty much anything. I'll tweet most of my major stories and not a whole lot else these days. I write consistently for Rolling Stone and, you know, your other favorite websites and magazines, and I run a side project with a bunch of my old coworkers called Discourse Blog. That's just at Discourse Blog pretty much everywhere. That's on sub stack. We do sort of political commentary, fun blogs, publishes five days a week. It's a good time. We don't take things too seriously. We love Jordan and Rob. They've helped us out with a bunch of stuff in the past. I think we're actually doing, tomorrow night we're going to be doing some kind of post debate, sort of like wrap up pod, I think it might just be, I think I'll be like sending in a voice note from my phone, from my like Ohio watch party that I'm at, but we should have something out Friday morning after the debate, kind of like wrapping things up. But we have fun over at Discourse Blog and, you know, I'm online like the rest of us. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks a lot, Jack. [Music] [Music] (upbeat music)