The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Life of Purpose: Simon Sinek | Finding Your Why

Join us for our Life of Purpose series this month as we revisit some of our most impactful episodes. Dive deep into expert insights and practical strategies on health, performance, and community, helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment.

Join Simon Sinek as he explores the powerful concept of 'Finding Your Why', a pivotal idea that has revolutionized our understanding of motivation and leadership. In this episode, Simon delves into how understanding your personal or organizational 'Why' can profoundly affect how you lead, inspire, and make decisions, fundamentally shifting the way businesses operate and individuals lead their lives.

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Duration:: 1h 4m
Broadcast on:: 07 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

As you probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to UnmistakeableCreative.com/Lifepurpose again. It's UnmistakeableCreative.com/Lifepurpose. When you do a jigsaw puzzle, the first thing you do is lean the box up against something and you have to look at the picture while you're building a jigsaw puzzle, where we all represent a piece of the picture, each one of us. And my piece of the puzzle is to get everybody to keep looking at the picture, so we don't walk around aimlessly holding our puzzle pieces, you know, not sure where they... But my job, I'm the feature, my job is to keep reminding people what the picture looked like. But if you have a piece of the puzzle that can help build that picture, then let's build this world together. And each of us have a role to help build that. Some people, you know, run companies where they get to literally inspire the people who show up to work every day and build an environment in which trust and cooperation will survive. That's their role. Some people are in, you know, building online communities where they have committed themselves to serving these people online, or some of these people are sort of the big brothers of the other solo printers. They may not be the most successful solo printer, but my goodness, they're the backbone for all the other successful ones. Like, we each have a role. I'm Sreeny Rao, and this is the unmistakable creative podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds, who've started movements, built driving businesses, written best-selling books, and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500 episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com. How's it going, Simon? Very well, thanks. How are you? Great. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. You're welcome. I like being called an instigator. Well, you know, it's funny. The reason I brought that up is I have numerous times had this question of, you know, how do you find your why? And I said, you know, we effectively can blame Simon Sinek doll for all of this. And at some point, we're going to get him here on the show to finally get this issue resolved. So I'm really glad you're here. Thank you. Nice to see you here. Yeah. Very first question, which I usually ask everybody. And that is, can you tell us a bit about yourself, your background, and how that eventually led to you doing the work that you do and the work that we know you for today? Sure. I mean, not waiting every single day inspired, it's just sort of inspired people to do what inspires them. There's a lot of inspires in there. You know, I believe in a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single day fire to go to work and return home every single day filled by the work that they do. And this is what I've committed my life through all my work through. It wasn't always that way, Helen. You know, I reached a point in my life a few years ago, where I had, I couldn't articulate why I was getting out of bed in the morning. And I was, you know, my story is the same as many other people. I thought success was defined by my bank account and how big my business would build. And I had all of these stresses and, and even though all superficial standards that I should have been happy, I made my, you know, I had my own, my own business. I made it even for living. I didn't feel it waking up in the morning. And it was this loss of passion that put me on this new path. I made this discovery of this thing called the why and realized that if my life was to be in balance, I knew what I did and I knew how I did it. I didn't know why, but though I became obsessed with it, I literally stopped talking about what I do and I always started talking about what I believe. You know, when you make some, when you, when you discover something beautiful, you share it with people you love. That's what I did. I shared it with my friends and my friends invited me to share with their friends and invited me to, you know, and then the invitations kept coming and I just kept saying, yeah, so the growth of this and where I find myself in my life staying completely organic. So a lot of, a lot of questions come from that for me, you know, especially given that, you know, what we're going through as a society is that, you know, we're experiencing career transitions like never before, we're seeing tremendous amount of career uncertainty. You know, I had Sean Acre here and he said job dissatisfaction is at an all time high. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things you said is that the, you want to, you envision a world where the vast majority of people wake up inspired to do what they do. And I don't think that we're quite at that point yet. I think there's a huge gap between where you want the world to be and where, you know, where it currently is. And I'm, you know, wondering, what can people do to start bridging that gap in their own lives and in their own work? Well, you know, we found ourselves in a place where we'd accidentally created this problem, you know, and if you, you know, the world is filled with danger, right? If you go back to caveman times, there are any number of things that we're trying to kill you, nothing personal, but they were, you know, whether it was the weather or a lack of resources or say, which is tiger, nothing personal, but all of the things trying to kill you. And so we evolved into these social animals and realized that our survival had a better chance if we cooperated, you know, there's inherent value in living among the tribe of people we trust and love, which just means I can fall asleep at night and trust someone else who watch for danger. If we don't trust each other, then we can't fall asleep at night. So there's, there's inherent value in being together. Well, that haven't changed, although our biology hasn't changed in 50,000 years, the thing that has changed is our environment, but the dangers are still there. In a business environment, you know, there is still dangers outside, you know, the ups and downs and uncertainty of the stock market and our economy, a new emerging tech emerging technology that might render a business model up to lead overnight, your competition that sometimes is trying to kill you, but it very often trying to steal your business or frustrate your growth. You know, nothing personal, but all these things are out there trying to do, trying to, you know, frustrate growth and survival. And so one thing, the only way in which we can take it all on is if we cooperate, and quite accurately, most of the cultures in America, most of the corporate cultures have created an environment which do not foster trust and cooperation. That's the problem. And if you look at the best functioning organizations, the most innovative organizations, everything the one of them, their cultures eerily harken back to this time 50,000 years ago. And if you created an environment in which you make people feel safe, in other words, if we don't fear our leaders, if we don't fear our colleague, if we don't fear that we're going to lose our jobs, if the company simply doesn't make it numbers, if we don't fear that if we make mistakes, you know, we're going to, we might be a risk. If we don't have to fear the dangers inside our company, what starts to happen is we naturally cooperate, trust each other, work together to face the dangers outside the company and tease the opportunity. Unfortunately, too many, too many people work in companies where that's not the case. And so we have to, we're forced to invest more of our time and energy to protect ourselves and the dangers inside, which ultimately makes the whole organization more susceptible to the danger that side. So now, to ask your question, what can we do? I get this question a lot, like I'm only in middle management, you know, my CEO would rather save the number and provides the people rather than sacrifice the number than save the people. What do I do? Well, believe it or not, you don't worry about them, you ignore them. You worry about the people right next to you. The people whose names you know, whose faces you recognize, the people you talk to every day and you commit yourself to service, you commit yourself to looking after the people around you and hoping that they will feel safe and the safer we make the people around us feel that we would do something, you know, we would help them when they need it. Just ask them, but get up from our chair and go help them that we would maybe even give up credit to ensure that they get credit for what they deserve as opposed to stealing credit. Little things like that. The more we work to make those around us feel that they're safe, the more they will commit to do the same for us. And so really, the stage begins with that. It begins with the risk that we have to take in the sacrifices that we need to make to look after those around us. So there's a lot of stuff that I want to go back to something else that you said earlier, you know, that you kind of woke up one day and you realized that you weren't passionate or you didn't really, you weren't really clear on sort of your why. And sometimes I think that we sleepwalk through life, I know I did, and I'm curious, you know, one of the things, and this is a really weird question I realize is, how do you know that you've reached that point, that breaking point, or that moment when something has to change or how do you know you're headed towards sort of a dangerous breakdown where something is going to have to change? I mean, you know, everybody knows how they steal. You know, we mistake the highs of winning a piece of business or we mistake the highs of an exciting event at work with being fulfilled and happy with our work. You know, the question is, do you want to wake up and do it all over again? Do you feel like you belong wherever you were? And if the answer is no, then something's wrong. And everybody knows when it's uncomfortable and we have a choice. We can either make a change now, change the way we do things, or we wait until the depression or the collapse or, you know, the watershed events of which we have no control over it, and then it'll be forced upon us. But it will, the collapse will always happen, you know, imbalance cannot last very long. And whether it's the destruction of our relationship, the destruction of our egos, whether it, you know, our sense of self-confidence, our sense of vulnerability, our own fear, our own ability to solve problems or invent new things, you know, it'll eventually collapse. So we can choose to take the risk now, we can choose the way to have it thrust upon us. Well, you know, it's interesting to bring that up, I had Eric Wall, who's a graffiti artist here, and I remember one very, one part of our conversation, very distinctly, when he said, you know, there's this quote by Sir Ron Kierkegaard, that all change is preceded by crisis, even though we'd like that not to be true. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Well, I don't necessarily think that's true, but if you don't make change the reverse, I mean, it's not an easy thing to prove, right? Because if you make a change before the crisis, then the crisis will be averted. You know, when you don't make, it was when you refuse to make the change, that yes, that crisis will, will, if we'll first change, you know, we like to think we're in control of our lives, and we are to some degree. But like I said, there are outside factors that we have no control over that have an impact. And sometimes those outside factors are as simple as our bosses, you know, or the organizational lead, or the organization's leadership as well. Yeah, I mean, crisis is pretty good at forcing change. It doesn't mean change is always good, but, you know, we react to crisis, you know, and sometimes reaction is not the thing you need. You know, if somebody, if somebody comes up to you and, you know, we will eat, everybody has a situation where you're driving in a car, minding your own business, and some guy sort of cut you up and then curses you out. Now we, what we tend to do is curse them back. Right? Well, that's because we reacted to whatever mini crisis it was. As opposed to thinking to ourselves, hold on, I don't need to waste the energy, it's only going to escalate the problem. I think I'm just going to think nothing or just maybe put my hand up if they sorry, even though it wasn't my fault, just to, just to de-escalate, right? But we don't do that. So, you know, I guess the problem with waiting for crisis is the reaction isn't necessarily a constructive one. So, you know, I want to ask you about one other thing that you said, you know, you talked about sort of concepts of creating trust, cooperation, safety, and helping those around us. And we're talking about it in the context of our working lives, our organization, and a lot of people listening to this are creative entrepreneurs or solo entrepreneurs are doing things in the online world. And what I'm curious about is how we connect those concepts to the work that we do online and create that kind of environment for the tribe that we're building, and let that play out in our messaging, our branding, our products, our services, and everything that we do. Well, it's still the same. I mean, an online community is still a community. And although there's a lot of virtualness, but there's an artifice to it, it obeys some of the rules of all normal communities, in other words, you still have to serve the community, right? You try and take advantage of the community, the community will lead you. I mean, we've seen this played out a number of times, you know, Rupert Murdoch bought MySpace and tried to use it as a platform to sell other products of News Corp. In other words, he sold dollar signs in the people. So instead of serving them, he tried to take them and look what happened to MySpace. And why not? It's a shadow, but it's former sell, you know? So whenever an organization, these are an online community is something of a, you know, they think it's fish and a barrel that can be profited of. The success will be short-lived if at all. So you still have to serve the community. It still has to be about them. 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The lives of Raha and Maua, two 20-year-old women and best friends were forever changed. One decided to stay. I feel like I've not, you know, wars and all that. And the other to leave. We got our tickets today to the Germany. These are their audio diaries. I could only carry my body without muscle. Listen to Inside Kaboo, wherever you get your podcasts. ACAS helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAS.com. So, let's go back to one other thing that you said. You know, after you reached this point where it became very clear, one of the things you said is that you redefined what success looked like for you. And I want to dig into this process in a bit more detail because one of the things I think we do is we hear that and it sounds sexy and we think we're redefining success. But what we're doing is we're taking somebody like Chris Dilomo's definition of success and saying, "Okay, well, now that's my definition of success." And then we become disillusioned with it. So, I'm curious, you know, with your guiding people on sitting down and really evaluating their life and redefining what success looks like for them, truly for them, not based on what somebody else thinks, their parents or somebody who is online celebrity thinks. One, how do you do that? And how did your previous background and career sort of influence and shape your views around all of this? Well, there are objective standards to this stuff, you know, which is success is defined by the thing that makes you feel safe and happy, right? Like, when you feel calm and you don't feel threat, you know, you feel good, you know? You feel like you could do this and you don't feel the pressures that you are successful. And the way that happens is with strong relationships, you know, money comes and grows famous fleeting. The only thing that lasts is the relationships we have. We live in a very materialistic society that chooses to define success based on numbers alone. And that is one kind of success. And I very often met very, very rich people who are not happy. And people say, and I say, well, you know, how great is it? They're not happy. And somebody will always say, well, they seem to be doing something right, as if being rich and unhappy is right. But like, if you had $50,000 a year of salary and you were very happy, then you'd be doing something wrong, you know? The fact of the matter is there are objective sort of anthropological standards to this, which is, which is, which is always defined by the quality of our relationship. And so if you can maintain strong relationships where you're admitted to others and they're committed to you, and you would sacrifice to see them succeed and they would sacrifice to see you succeed, then go off and make as much money, fame, fortune as you want. There's a stable foundation, but to do it in the other order is it doesn't feel successful after a while. Again, I can concur, I can tell you that, you know, I mean, I struggle at times to make money, but the most fulfilling part of what I've gotten to do in building an online community is hands down the relationships. And I look at that and I always, you know, I say, you know what, you can't take your numbers or your metrics or with you, but your friendships, they last forever, your relationships, they last, like long beyond. Maybe my show won't be here for 10 years from now that the people I've met will still be. And for anybody who sort of questions this working definition, I would ask them this, you know, what do you want on your tombstone? You know, do you want on your tombstone, the last number that was in your bank account? Do you want on your tombstone, the number of sort of, you know, J.D. Powers Awards you got or, you know, do you want on your tombstone that you're an Inc. 5000 company, you know, or do you want on your tombstone, you know, what do we always want on our tombstone, what we did rather, he gave, he believed, he loved, you know, he served, you know, we want on our tombstones, the way others will remember us. And so why not, why not use our careers and use our businesses to start to create, to create that because what midlife crises are and this is what happened, you know, people wake up later in life and they go, Oh, shit, now I have less time to do that. Yeah, well, let me ask you this, you know, so we got to this point where you've redefined things, you've discovered how important this message is to you and you said that it kind of grew organically and I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily because I don't do that to anybody. I want to start digging into into this in a bit more detail because a lot of people might hear that and say, you know, Simon woke up one day, had a religious experience in the next, you know, he's a New York Times bestselling author, but you and I both know there's a lot more that goes into that. So talk to me about the evolution of Simon Sinek as we know him as the guy who came up with the start with Y concept, I mean, from, you know, sort of passing it on to your first friends. I mean, the way I was thinking about it when you were describing it is I'm a surfer, so I can relate everything to that to wait to, I was thinking about it as riding a wave and adjusting to what the wave is doing as you went along and got feedback and I'd love for you to dissect that in a bit more detail. You know, the, so I'll equate it, I'll equate it to speaking, right? So people asked me, how did I get good at speaking? And one of the, one of the things that I've learned is when I, when I show up, hey, it doesn't go very well, but when I show up to give, it's entirely different. And if you look at a lot of speakers who stand on a stage, you know, they can't resist at the end, you know, thing, if you want more, please visit my website or if you want to buy my product or here, please follow me on Twitter or, you know, and there's a, at the whole time there's their name and website behind them. And I learned to let go of that. I don't want anything from anybody in an audience. I don't want them to, I'm not showing up to get them to buy a book or watch a TED talk or follow me on Twitter, you know, I'm there to give, I'm there to share. And the amazing thing is there's the rapport that you can create with someone when you have that disposition is dramatic. Though I, that's sort of been a guiding principle for me in a lot of the things that I've done. And, and what I think organic, what I mean is there was no fancy marketing plan behind it. And the, you know, I didn't hire anybody in Bangladesh to like my book on Amazon, you know, there's no, there's no tricks, there's no gimmick, you know, the reason that my book stole or the, that the people saw that TED talk is because other people talked about it because other people recommended it. And the reason that happened is because the ideas that I tried to present and tried to share, I genuinely believe in, I had to suffer to learn them. And I don't think I don't want anybody to, to have to go through what I went through because it was awful. You know, it was like sort of depression. And, and if I can share those ideas in a simple, compelling way that you don't have to go through what I went through, then all the better. And that's why those ideas are resonant. And if somebody believes in them and wants to share them with a friend who believes would find them inspiring, and then they share them, there's, that's the reason. And so I hate the cop out of the answer, but the reason that spread was not because of me. The reason that spread was because of the generosity of others. Well, I, you know, I can tell you firsthand, any success I've had, I, you know, I wrote a book recently called The Smarmy Strategy, and I can tell you that entirely was based on the generosity of others, the success of it. There's no question in my mind that it was. I sent it to 20 people and they sent it to a lot more people. Yeah. And if you stopped, you know, if you shopped it, you know, sell books, sell books, sell books, then you're, there's a, there's a push and people resistant to push because it makes them feel pressured and it doesn't make them feel safe, or when there's a sort of a little more of a sort of selfless approach, it's a non threatening and it allows people to embrace the idea, rather the rejected person. Let me ask you this, you know, I think that some people are going to hear that. And one of the thoughts that will probably come to mind is say, okay, well, Shrini and Simon, it's easy for you guys to talk about generosity when you have achieved some level of success. And this is very counterintuitive. I think it's a radical mindset shift and it's one that took me a long time to make and to really understand that, you know, you get back what you give more than you could possibly imagine, but it's very, it's a weird sort of thing when you're, when you're starting out or there's nothing there and it feels like you're, you don't have anything to give. Except for the fact that I've been doing it for many more years, you know, than I have now. So yes, the thing that would stay of me will also will find it good for you, Simon. You can afford to do that. Well, I've been doing it long before that. I do, I did it when I couldn't afford it. I would remember looking at my business bank account, we had $10,000 in the bank account, you know, we would be lucky to be able to make payroll and pair expenses the next month. And this went on for a very long time, many years. And we would have people offer us money, but they were bad fits and we would take a deep breath and say, it's not right, we can't do it. We have to pay no. And though it sucked and it was hard, but I made the decision a long time ago that I would rather work with people who can help me advance this idea of spreading this cause and make less money than take the money, but be really unhappy, be bossed around by some client that I sort of have made myself dependent on, like an unhealthy, pendant relationship, right? And eventually it paid up. I still do it to this day, meaning I could probably make more money than I do. I think people think I'm richer than I am, but like I said, for me, the importance is to work with people that inspire me as much as they're willing to pay. You know, I hadn't, I had an experience when I went to Afghanistan with the Air Force that profoundly underscored that. I mean, I'll give you the short version, but I went there for August of 2011 and sort of everything went wrong and I found myself stuck there without a slight to get home and I never told my parents that I was dying because I didn't want them boring. And I was there with two other officers who were looking after me and, you know, we were stuck there and didn't know how we were going to get out of the country because they were in a more polite and I remember just sort of getting depressed and regretting it and saying yes to this trip and didn't want to wish I wasn't there and became paranoid because based on a rocket attack the night before and I was convinced there was going to be another one that was going to land on me and it just wasn't really sort of uncomfortable, bad, sort of really depressing experience. And I gave up. I was like, well, if I'm going to get stuck here, I might as well make myself useful. volunteer to speak if they want me to. I volunteered to carry boxes, feet floors, whatever. And as soon as I made that decision to serve others, to serve those, to serve others, I felt fine. I felt relaxed. I felt calm. I even felt excited. It was the strangest thing. And moment when it comes to that realization, one of the officers are traveling with, you know, comes back to the room, the door flies open. And he says, there's a flight that's been redirected. We've got to go. We've got to go. We've got to go. We've got to go. We've got to go now. We grab our stuff. We rush out. We grab the other officers with us and three of us rush out to the flight line. And just as we get to the flight line, the security corden comes down. We're not allowed to the plane because there's a fallen soldier ceremony. And out of respect, when that happens, everything stops out of respect. And so we waited. And finally, the security corden went up and we got on the plane. We would be the only three passengers aboard this plane in addition to the crew, obviously. And the reason the plane was redirected is because we would be carrying home the soldier from whom they had the fallen soldier ceremony. So I flew on the flight for nine and a half hours with a flag, Drake passed it. And I lay there because it was an overnight flight. We also pulled our sleeping bags out and, you know, found a place to sleep on the floor of the cargo plane. And, you know, I lay there and staring at this flag, Drake passed it. And I realized that this guy knew a lot more about service than I ever did and I ever will. And it was a great honor. It was a great, great honor. I got to tell you. But when I got home, I remember being really short tempered more often. I couldn't understand why I was really, you know, something would go wrong and go off the handle. And I couldn't figure out why. And I realized I would also do other things like maybe I'd go stick on a military base or go do something with a sort of really poor thinking company. And I had tons of energy. And if anything went wrong, I'd be totally relaxed. I started to realize that when I worked with people who believed and looking after other people, I had endless amount of energy and enjoyed myself. I want to work with people who only wanted me that they can, you know, drive the bottom line and nothing else, even at the expense of other people, literally my body had a withdrawal reaction to it where I got angry and upset. And I didn't want to be there. And as soon as I realized what the pattern was, I stopped saying yes to those things and I don't get angry as much. I'm a happier person for it. So this idea of serving those who serve others is core. And there's biological and anthropological underpinnings for this stuff, you know, this stuff, not really my opinion. And this is court of the Bible and driving of the human animal, which is we're constantly looking to build relationships that can help protect protect us protect our families and help us advance their bill. And, and when we fear for our careers, simply because the company didn't make its numbers. Why would we ever commit to giving anything more than the basic to our company. Just, just doesn't happen. And in the online community of solopreneurs of the same things, it's very hard to be a solopreneur because you buy yourself. And at the end of the day, the relationships, it's community that helps us survive. That's why what you do is important because there are other people who tune in. You know, if they get to meet each other, you know, it's even better, but, but, you know, I don't believe in the fellowship. I think it's, I think it's a full game. Sure, you can make some money. And sure, you can give me the sales pitch of the I get to be my own boss. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I get it. But those days where things go wrong and you buy yourself. It's awful, horrible. It's depressing. It's sad. It's heart wrenching. It's just the energy that it is required to keep going at it when you don't think you can do it. And that's why partnership is important. To have someone close to you goes, no, I believe in you. Let's do this. We can do this together to have each other to get through the hard things or to have a small team but at least two people. And if you don't have that, really the burden of responsibility goes up to form a community of still entrepreneurs who can get together on a regular basis and be that's a core group to each other. I mean, think about every single crisis that ever happens in the world. Every addiction that ever happens in the world. How do you beat it? There's some sort of community, there's some sort of help group. There's some sort of, you know, it's always human beings and human relationships that help us solve our problems because when we don't believe we can, but someone else does believe we can. It empowers us like nobody's business. And likewise, we get the satisfaction getting to tell somebody else, I believe in you and I thought you're bad. That was really just poetic and beautifully said, you know, I love that, you know, you really nailed this whole idea about human relationships matter. And it's interesting because even though we are solo entrepreneurs, there's no question in my mind that we are completely dependent on each other. You know, somebody asked me once, what do you attribute the success of a show to? I said, the generosity of a lot of other people to come and share their ideas, people like you who are willing to come and talk to me. Even if there might not be anything in it for them, you know, or it might be anything in it for you. And as you were talking about this whole story, it reminded me of a conversation I was having with a friend at lunch the other day, she said, it makes complete sense why you do this. She said, your deepest need is that you crave connection with people. And there's nothing better for you to do them to do this because you get it every single day when you do it. Correct. And, and don't be so, you know, don't pay me so much credit. It's not so, you know, there's nothing in it for you. Of course there's something in it for me. This is, this is as much as it may appear altruistic. There's something deeply selfish going on here as well, which is I have an ideal, which I articulated before. So, I have a world that I imagine that I can commit it to helping to build and the more and my role in that because it's a jigsaw puzzle right. And there's a big jigsaw puzzle. And, and as you know, when you ever do a jigsaw puzzle, the first thing you do is you lean the box up against, you know, something and you have to look at the picture why you build a jigsaw puzzle, where we all represent a piece of the picture, each one of us. And my piece of the puzzle is to get everybody to keep looking at the picture. So we don't walk around aimlessly holding our puzzle pieces, you know, not sure where they. But my job I'm the feature my job is keep reminding people what the picture looked like. But if you have a piece of the puzzle that can help build that picture, then then let's build this world together. And each of us, each of us have a role to help build that. Some people, you know, run companies where they get to literally inspire the people who show up to work every day and build an environment in which trust and cooperation will survive that their role. 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Let's reclaim our piece and put an end to those spam text messages and other data privacy issues once and for all. I love this. It's genius. So I don't even want to touch it. But I think that it makes the perfect setup to finally get to the bottom of why you're here. Like I said, I blame you for all of this. And I've blamed you for this for a very long time. I said, finally, we're going to get to talk to Simon Sinek today and get to this question of why we do what we do. And, you know, it's interesting because you kind of talked about it. But what I want to do is get into a tactical framework because I've asked this question to so many people. Simon and I figured, you know, you're the root of it for sure. And it seems like once people have it figured out something dramatic happens in their life. And the closer I get to it, the more I feel like my life is changing for the better. So what I'm curious about is how you discovered it in your own journey. And sort of providing this with a framework for how we can figure out why we do what we do. It's a pattern, right? If you look at your, the jobs you've loved the most in your life, the times you've been your happiest when you love what you've been a part of. If you go throughout your life pattern that you find is consistent, which is there's always a reason there's something behind. Even though the work may not have been easy, but the thing that's fulfilled you was always the time and we're all different. And so there's many ways to do that. You can literally sit down and go through your whole life, you know, and, and not particularly, you know, the best, the best things you've ever done, the things you've loved, and you'll, you'll find that pattern. And this is what we do, you know, we have that. You know, that's what we do when I, when I sort of do why this would be. But if you want, I can, I can show you, I can take you through like a quickie version of it. It would be fantastic. And you and your, you and your listeners to hear it. So why don't you tell me of all the things you've done in your career. Tell me, tell me a project you worked on or something you did, even if it wasn't commercially successful, that you absolutely loved being a part of it. Every project you could do was just like this one would be the happiest part of the line. I'm doing it right now. Yeah, I want to know something specific. As far, like, so running vlog test FM and building this show has hands down been the most fulfilling thing I've done to date. Okay. Typically is it about this? That is something that you love to run. I love the fact that I get to connect with people. I love the fact that my relationships, y'all tell you what it is. Somebody asked me once, so what is it that draws you to people so much? I said the idea that there would be a point in my life in which I stopped making friends absolutely terrified me. Somebody asked me about colleges, you know, college is not the only place to get drunk and get drunk and get laid. Although it's a damn good place to do both. But the idea that I would have no social outlet the moment I left an environment that was vastly conducive to it was one of the most terrifying things to me. Which is, it was why I loved this because my connection to human beings and the group of people I know continually expands. Like, I thought the idea that we stopped making friends and adult life was ridiculous. I was like, why would anybody say you have enough friends? So to give me a specific example of you doing the show that helped me understand that idea. There could be a committee you may have met or a friend should be may have formed. Like, give me a specific example. Well, I'll give you a, so actually this is coincidentally the day the show launched. I met a woman named Maria Brophy who ended up having a very profound impact on my life. I met her at Seth Godin's event when Lynch, Lynchpin came out in Orange County. And, you know, I'd literally the day the show had started that day. She appeared as a guest probably a year later. And when I moved to Costa Rica in 2011, because she and her husband are both surfers and her husband is an avid surf artist and hey, I'm moving to Costa Rica. I'm selling everything I own. She ended up setting me up with a free place to live. I mean, she's always been one of those people that I kind of fall back on and count on when things have gotten rough. She's always provided guidance in very difficult times. So that's, that's the most specific example I could think of. And how did that relationship form? We met at a networking event in Orange County when Seth Godin was speaking about Lynchpin. And I just won literally just launched vlogcast FM that morning. And what was it about? What was it about her? Like, what did you talk about that made it that made you connect with her? Well, there was the common bond of surfing was definitely the one thing that we had. I mean, her husband is actually a real surf. You know, I thought I was like a big time surfer at the time. Then she showed me pictures of her husband surfing the bonsai pipeline, which is like 60 foot waves. And he's just like a hardcore big wave surfer. Got it. Got it. Okay. Tell me your earliest specific happy childhood memory. Wow. Not like we went to the, you know, the fun, the park every Thursday. You know, like, specifically something that you can, you can mix described and I can relive the memory with you. You know, I guess it happened as late as junior high. I played the tuba for 13 years. And I was never good at certain things. Like, I was never good at sports. I was never a standout in any way at all in any of the things I did. And the day I picked up the instrument, I remember the band director distinctly telling me, he said, you're going to be really, really good. Someday you're going to be an all state band. And I didn't even know what that meant. But it set a context from that point forward that everything I did fell under that. And eventually I did make all state band. But I guess the idea of being that good at something to be a standout drove me in a lot of ways. And so, okay. So you see the pattern between the two stories, right? Kind of. About finding the one thing that you're good at, right? Yeah. And it's that one thing that you can find that you're good at, that if you make it yours, if you find somebody else who's good at the same thing, you'll form the relationship because you're not trying to be good at everything. We're not good at the things that other people are good at. You're trying to be good at the thing that you're good at. And sometimes you discover it easily, and sometimes it takes a little harder. But in your case, you were lucky enough to stumble upon it in what did you say, junior high? In junior high. Probably because somebody took you under their wing and said you should try this. And so it's all about finding the thing that you're good at. Especially if it's something unusual. You know, surfing is not a common thing, playing the tuba is not a common thing. So when you find other people who are good at the unusual thing, the bond will form. How does it feel so far? It's interesting you say that because somebody asked me, what is it? You know, I always look for common threads between the people who are on the show. And you know what? They're people who are good at unusual things. They're artists. They're, they're, they're misfits, they're instigators. They're, you know, ordinary people who do extraordinary things. That is their common thread. There you go. And you, and you're enamored by them because they have found the one thing that they're, that they're good at, that they have focused on and made a career out of or built business out of or whatever they've chosen to do with it. But, you know, become experts, become, you know, you know, whatever, fishinatos. But, but they found this one thing that, that they've loved. And I'm hesitant to call it find your passion because it's sort of that. You know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, and unfortunately, it's a bit of a trial and error game. You know, you kind of have to try stuff and you have to be open minded and willing to try stuff before you will find that one thing that for some reason, who knows why. Who knows why you took the tuba and who knows why you took perfect, you know. But it's finding that one thing and it happened to me, you know, I find that one thing that I. That's sort of me, you know, this, this wants and desire to preach about a better world. I mean, that's, it kind of suits me, you know, I kind of like it. I love it. And, and I, I focus on it and I do it as much as I can. Why? Because I like it and I love it. And people are who want to talk to me or draw to me is because I'm good at my one thing, just like people want to talk to you or good at the one thing. And I'm going to guess that a lot of what you talk about in your show is going to be about, you know, these, these, these one thing with these, these people. It'd be that they, they found and they, they, they built upon upon it. They built something upon it. And they did force themselves to try and play the game by everybody else's rules. And if everybody else said you have to do it this way, but it didn't feel right to them, they didn't do it. And it's the courage, the courage that you preach, the courage. Not do things the way everybody else says just because it worked for that. It's the courage to find the thing that works for you. And then do that. Amazing. You know, where your why lives. Your why lives in debt to inspire people or encourage people or help people. Find that one thing. Tell them find one thing. Then inspires them and makes them stand out from everybody else and then encourages them to keep doing it, even if it's unpopular with others because tuba is not popular with other. I can tell you that from my parents reaction to, to my admission to the USC school of music, which I decline to attend. Right. So, so that's, that's your why. And everything you do should be designed to help people find that one. I love it. It's, it's really, it's interesting. And now that you've said it, I can see those threads in, in a lot of the thing. I mean, I could see that in, in the event that we're planning the instigator experience. I mean, it's about people bringing their bold ideas to life. There you go. And I, it's funny. I would have never made the connection between tuba playing surfing and this, and doing this show. I mean, surfing and doing this show, I would have, but the tuba playing part, I would have never guessed. There you go. So let me ask you this. Let's say we were going to, you know, you've done this for me. Let's say we extract it down to kind of a framework that people can apply to what they're doing in their life. How would you boil it down if we were to give them sort of the five steps, Simon Sinex, five step guide defining your why? Well, I mean, like, you want to find more data point. The only reason I'm good at it with a few data points is because I'm proud and I've done it a lot. So you can do the same experience. You know, with this, with, with, you can go through the periods of your life during your high school high school, you know, early career mid career, current time, you know, whatever it is. And do the exact same thing, ask the exact same set of questions over and over. I mean, this is what we do in our why university, you know, which is we have this online. We had the online tool that one of the people my team said, Hey, Simon, you should be sharing this with more people. And so God bless her. She built it. And it's this online university that guides people through the process to find these points in their life and guide them through the process of finding, you know, finding, being able to identify that pattern. But, you know, you can, you can do yourselves as well. You know, whether you, you know, whether you do something like formal course or not. So let me ask you one other thing. I don't know if you, you picked up on this. Did you notice that none of the things you mentioned were ever career related. Like, I did, because when you'd asked about jobs, I was about to tell you, I hated every single job I've ever had with the exception of one. Well, I mean, that's, that's just the way it worked out. I mean, for some people, you know, they may have found something in their careers that I didn't buy them. You know, not in your case. Well, let's do this. Let's shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about a few more things and I will come back to the book, but you know, you brought up something earlier about certain. So now that we've got some some clarity around this why, you know, it seems like this should be the filter for every choice I make almost. When it comes to who I want to work with, the kind of products I build, the way my language and comes across it and my vision. And you brought up that whole story about this visceral feeling and the way you evaluate clients. And I'm wondering, you know, are there, are there criteria that you use to determine whether somebody is in line with, you know, your message and your mission and how people can develop their own when they do this kind of work. It's not much that they're in line with mine is that we share the thing. Right. I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like, if I asked you to write an online profile for who you want to marry, and you have any deal breakers, you're going to be like, yeah, there are a couple deal breakers, you know. I've written them already. Yeah, like, you know, a heroin addict would be a deal break, you know. And it's the same thing. It's not it's not as complicated as we make a town, which is, which is, you know, one of the deal breakers, one of the people that, you know, if you work with them, it'll, it'll either make you uncomfortable, or it really will distract you from, from doing this one thing that you're that you really can get tremendous joy at it. And in my case, I am absolutely this really drawn to people who believe in putting people before numbers. And I'm this really offended by people who believe in putting numbers before people. You know, I like to work with people who would recognize the numbers to save the people and sacrifice the people to save the numbers. And so that doesn't mean that the organizations I work with will get it right. I've worked with some organizations and very large companies who really they're terrible places to work. And they really are, and they, and the people are treated terrible. However, the leap really wants to do the right thing. They just don't know how to do it. You know, so it's not like I'm just preaching to the converted of people who are already good at work, people who are terrible at it, but they have the deep, deep desire for a public, you know, a leader of a public company who's like, I had the pressure from Wall Street, it drives me crazy. I wish I could ignore them to do what's right by the people, you know. Those people and love working. It's not that they've had success that they built where their hearts are. Where one guy had a meeting with who told me that, you know, it was, it was out of his control and he just had a fiduciary duty to serve his client, regardless of the impact it has on people's lives. I will never work with that person for the rest of my life, unless he has some sort of conversion, you know. So you get the idea. Yeah, no doubt. Well, what's this? I want to start getting into a bit more tactical things, a few more tactical things here, you know, and I love this. So what I'm curious about, you know, you're talking about clients that you've worked with some of the, you know, you've worked and I know having read your book, you've worked with some world class organizations. You know, a lot of people are going to want to know once they've sort of got some clarity around this message, this mission and all of that, how they translate it into something tactical in terms of products in terms of services in terms of what they do with their online work. And then I want to talk briefly about the new book that you have coming out and your writing process and we'll wrap things up from there. Um, again, sort of the, we already know the tactic, like everybody knows the thing that we have to do, like, we have to come up with the plan and we have to come up with the marketing message and like the pretty universal. It's the manner in which we perform those pack. And so there's multiple ways paying them, you know, do you start with what or do you start with why. So, for example, you can, you said to me hey sign and so tell us what you're up to. You know, and I say, well, I've got this new book coming out of this coming out and I've got this new online university coming out, we've got this coming out and we've got this friend and they've read fantastic products with people. You know, not compelling because I'm not starting with why. So, when you say time and what are you up to, I say, well, everything I do is devoted to this one idea to build this world that I imagine and explain that world that I imagine. And I go into the specific name that I'm doing to help advance my cause. But the tactic they're not particularly new or exciting. It's the manner in which we do. And sometimes sometimes this is the hard part. Sometimes it means not doing something because even though it might be profitable, would put you off course. Those are the really hard. Yeah, I really appreciate that you pointed that out. And I agree. Here's what I found, at least my experience that I'm guessing you've started you've seen this too, is when we walk away from the things that that you know, aren't meant that things like that. We make a space in our lives. And, you know, I say when we let go of the expectation of the things that we know the way we think things are supposed to we get the opportunity to experience the way they're meant to be. Right. Yes. So, well, let's do this. You know, I know you have a new book coming out. I'd love for you to talk to us kind of about the scenes of the new book briefly, kind of your writing process of what goes into a book and how you get it to the level. I mean, I think you kind of touched on what has been the driving force behind the success of your books, which is a generosity of a lot of other people. So I'm not expecting some, you know, laid out Tim Ferris style marketing plan. But I would love for you to talk about sort of what's gone into this next book. And, in a way, I might book have not enjoyed the same success as Tim Ferris, you know, so his credits. So, I can answer the question. So my, the new book is called leaders eat glass. And this is what I've learned, which is the people who deserve the position of leadership, the people who earn our trust who we would. The volunteer to follow, to follow blindly help them build their vision. When matters, those people would sooner feed us than feed themselves. Metaphorically speaking, sometimes literally, just like a parent, a parent when it matters would rather feed their children and feed them thousands. There's a, there's an amazing photograph. You know, we just recently had this horrible thing going in Kenya with these terrorists that, you know, went into the shopping wall and put a shooting. And in the New York Times, they ran a photograph from inside during the crisis. And this is one photograph that I'm absolutely captivated by. I've gone and looked at it so many times of a mother lying on top of her child, because that's what mothers do. They throw themselves on top of their children in times of danger. Quite frankly, this is leadership 101. In times of danger, this is what leaders do. They throw themselves on top of their people to protect their people. Sometimes at personal stack. And unfortunately, we live in a world now where too many leaders would rather sacrifice their people to state themselves. And based on the, all of the biology and anthropology in the history of Homo speaking, that violate everything about what it means to be a leader. Every rational, objective standard, what it means to be a leader. So this is what I've been studying. I've been studying why some games pool together and others don't. And this concept of feeling safe amongst our own tribe so that we can better organize and face the world and face the dangers of the opportunities together. And that's what the book is about, the New book. In terms of my writing process, you know, I have no romantic illusions about writing a book. Horrible, the awful, horrible process that is stressful and difficult. And it's probably more stressful, more difficult because I don't have a process. You know, some people have the discipline to wake up every morning and write from nine to five or I'm the discipline to wake up every day and write 5,000 words a day. I unfortunately can't do that. I'm much more of an art in my process, which is, I kind of have to steal it. You know, I can go days without writing a word and I'm doing it by guilt. But I can't even go and join myself. You know, I'll sit at my computer and feel guilty. No, or I'll watch TV and feel guilty. So I can't even like disconnect. I just feel guilty. And then I'll have this moment of inspiration, sit down and write 10,000 words. The problem is I don't know when those times happen. So it's a horribly stressful, awful experience. And this one was no difference. This one was, you know, the worst, most difficult thing I've ever done this last book. And frankly, the irony is everything that I wrote about, I experienced. In other words, the only reason I got through it is because it's amazing people who stood by me, believe to me, who suffered with me and stayed up late with me. Who went through the strength of me, who helped me out when I needed it most. The only reason this book exists is ironically because of the very concept that I wrote about. So one other question around the creation process. You mentioned some very, very big ideas, you know, ones that are very bold. And obviously you've got to boil it down to the essence of fitting in a book. So two questions around this. One is what goes into the research of it, and then how do you filter with such a such a vast subject matter. And I'm asking this for very selfish reasons because I keep the book. Check a good book writing. And my publisher sort of taught me this, which is, you can't write about everything. And most of our ideas, especially the stuff that I write about when you get into human behavior are gossamer. In other words, every door you open could be a whole new book. And you kind of have to pick one of those themes and say this is the one I'm going to delve deeply into. And you have to have a discipline not to pursue the other. And you will always leave stuff out and you kind of just be okay with it. A book about everything is a book about nothing. You have to pick a book about them. And I'm not hard, to be honest. And for me, it's an iterative process. You know, my mother dropped me on my head when I was a kid and now I can see patterns. And I just like with the little wide discovery thing we did like I can see patterns as though. My process starts up with an idea, basic idea that I start to research. And the more that I read and the more I start to learn and the more I talk to people. The more I start to discover pattern. And those patterns, then I could do one of the patterns. And if there's another pattern within that, then I pursue that pattern. It's kind of a bit chaos theory like. Until I find the pattern that I think is the most beautiful and that's the one I'll write. I love it. I think it's genius. I'm not even going to touch it because I don't really have anything to add to that. I could only change it. I figured. So Simon, I know you got to go in here because we're close to about an hour. I'm going to ask you my final question, but I'm going to change it up slightly. You know, it's interesting. I've always asked people to say, you know, we live in this world where there's an abundance of opportunity. Despite the fact that it's the most uncertain, most tumultuous time, career-wise in history, you're also seeing innovation and creativity just bursting like never before. I mean, I say it's like being back in a kindergarten classroom except for all adults. And I see this dichotomy of people only because so many of them have appeared on my show. I guess the people who found their one thing. And there's people who achieve at a certain level like Danielle Leportes, the Seth Godens, who go out and really they just blow our minds and we look at that and say, okay, well, that's what we kind of we set that as sort of our barometer, I guess, and maybe that's part of the problem. But what I'm curious about is what do you think it is? Do you think it's clarity of purpose that distinguishes the people who get everything they want from the ones who don't? I don't think anybody gets everything they want. And I think the ones that are distinguished are the ones that are really happy with the stuff they get. And they don't feel like they're without. That doesn't mean that they don't have ambition to want more, but they don't feel without. And I think the ones that are dissatisfied are never happy with what they get. Like, like, we've all had this experience that myself included, right? You go to an event and they had goody bags at the end, right? And you get you get handed your bag and you get a bright pink sweatshirt with coconut for free in your goody bag that somebody else gets the same sweatshirt in blue. And what do you do? You get jealous. You want what they have. You want the blue one because it's nicer. And yet you can't accept the fact that you just got a free sweatshirt 10 minutes ago you had no sweatshirt. And now you have a free sweatshirt. Maybe you give it away to someone to make them feel like you've got a free sweatshirt. But we don't do that. We look at what we have. We compare what others have. We want what they have. And that's why we're unhappy. I love it. I think it's genius. It's funny because that's what my entire Facebook update today was about is that it's the only thing worth comparing or the only people worth comparing yourself. Or the only person worth comparing yourself to is the previous version of who you were. And even that is a delicate balancing act. Yeah. I mean, look, my, you know, so my TED talk is the number two, what most West TED talk. I don't know what's dying, right? Now, should I be angry and competitive in one of your number one? And I can tell you, there are other people whose TED talks are growing fast. Not very soon be number three and then four and then five. It's down. And it'll hurt my ego, you know. But at the end of the day, how cool is that that I need? It's number two. And like I didn't even do anything. I just put an idea from people loved it. Like to take joy in what we would feel and not worry about whether I had number one or number two and not worry about how long it'll last and that eventually it's going to go down, which, by the way, it will because these things don't last. But to take absolute joy in the accomplishment itself is a beautiful thing. And I think most of us don't take joy in the success that we have comparing ourselves to others wishing what they had. You know, why can't I be a billionaire? You know, it's like, you're not. I don't know what to tell you, you know. So, so I think the ones that are actually most successful and ironically, they continue to build their success are the ones that are so grateful for any success that they achieve at any point in time. Well, Simon, this has been absolutely epic as I expected it would be. And you really honestly, I can't thank you enough for your generosity and your time and then sharing your insights with our listeners. I know people are going to get a ton out of this conversation. Well, thanks to giving me a form to share my ideas. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. And for those of you guys listening, as I mentioned at the beginning of the show, visit the instigator experience.com and you'll be on the free launch list for our first in person event and we'll close the show with that. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Unmistakable Creative Podcast. While you're listening, were there any moments you found fascinating, inspiring, instructive, maybe even heartwarming? Can you think of anyone, a friend or a family member who would appreciate this moment? If so, take a second and share today's episode with that one person because good ideas and messages are meant to be shared. When you need meal time inspiration, it's worth shopping king supers where you'll find over 30,000 mouthwatering choices that excite your inner foodie. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices plus extra ways to save, like digital coupons worth over $600 each week. You can also save up to $1 off per gallon at the pump with fuel points, more savings and more inspiring flavors make shopping king supers worth it every time. King supers, fresh for everyone, fuel restrictions apply. It has powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. In 2021, Afghanistan fell to the Taliban. 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