The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Life of Purpose: Tim Ferriss | Making the Impossible Possible

Join us for our Life of Purpose series this month as we revisit some of our most impactful episodes. Dive deep into expert insights and practical strategies on health, performance, and community, helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment.

Today, we're excited to have Tim Ferriss back on the show. Tim has been listed as one of Fast Company’s “Most Innovative Business People”, Forbes Magazine’s “Names You Need to Know,” and is the 7th “most powerful” personality on Newsweek’s Digital 100 Power Index for 2012. He is an angel investor/advisor (Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Evernote, and 20+ more) and author of The Four Hour Work Week, The Four Hour Chef, and The Four Hour Body.

In this episode, we explore the concept of peak performance and making the impossible possible. Tim shares his insights on how to develop an individualized style of competition, compensate for your weaknesses, capitalize on your strengths, and push beyond what you think is humanly possible.

We delve into the mindset that allows people to become extremely successful and discuss the importance of energy and attention management. Tim also shares his thoughts on how to look at success holistically and absorb the qualities of our mentors through osmosis.

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Duration:: 1h 8m
Broadcast on:: 05 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

As you probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose. The first question, what makes someone truly wealthy, I think, is a combination of not just achievement because it's very easy to default to racking up sort of feathers in the cap and more money and obsess on those types of measurables by focusing as an A-type personality on achievement, just doing more and earning more. The bigger challenge for people who are hardwired that way, and I'm certainly this way, is balancing that with appreciating what you have. That is a necessary component because if you don't appreciate what you have now, you will never appreciate what you get later. I'm Sreeny Rao, and this is the unmistakable creative podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who have started movements, built driving businesses, written best-selling books, and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500 episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com. Tim, welcome to the unmistakable creative, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. You don't really need much of an introduction, it'd be kind of ridiculous because I would assume that just about every single person listening, unless they've been in a cave for the last 10 years, probably knows who you are. You've actually been a guest on our show before, when we were called Blockcast FM, and this was when a four-hour chef came out. This time, I wanted to do a dive into parts of your story that have never been told before. Really, where I wanted to start is looking back before high school, before Princeton, all of that, into the pivotal moments growing up that have led you to be aware you're at in your journey. Would you be willing to talk about some of that whole experience? Absolutely. I think there were some early formative experiences that shaped a lot of what I did later, and maybe some context that people haven't heard before. Let me start at the beginning, and I'll let you guide me as needed. I don't want to give you some long-winded Dr. Evil type life story, but I was born and raised on Eastern Long Island. I was a towny, very proud of the fact. I was very proud of the fact that I was a towny in basically the Hamptons. It was a very bifurcated, have-and-have-not environment, where you saw a very sharp contrast between locals who mostly worked in the service industry and very wealthy people who'd come out from Manhattan for the weekends or the summer. That is where I went to elementary school, high school for part of my time. I was born premature, had a lot of health issues early on, was an intensive care unit for a very long time, had my blood volume transfused, I think five times, because my left lung collapsed, couldn't oxygenate my blood properly, and still have long issues to this day, for that reason. As part of the reason I didn't learn to swim until I was in my 30s, for instance, embarrassing but true, and I had a few experiences in school, for instance, and in sports that were formative. The first thing comes to mind is really being rescued in a way as a runt by being thrown into kid wrestling, so I started wrestling when I was eight or nine years old, and it was a great way for my mom to exhaust me, so I wouldn't be a hyperactive mess when I got home, but it was also a way that I could build up my confidence in a sport that was based on weight classes, instead of getting my ass thrashed in every other sport, since I was small and had a lot of allergies, which made it very embarrassing for me to do the presidential fitness test if you can work all those, and the wrestling forced me to do a few things. It forced me to develop a very individualized style of competition, because it is, of course, the points are tallied as a team, but you are really earning your keep on the map by yourself. The second component of that was the fact that I had very short endurance capacity. I was very handicapped in that way because I would overheat, and this is related to thermal regulation and my lung capacity, so just like dogs pants to dissipate heat, humans very much do the same thing, so your breathing in the surface area of the interior of your lungs has an implication for how quickly you can dissipate heat, and that was very bad at it. I worked to develop a style that was unlike most of the people I trained with, and I really had to, particularly once I became very serious in high school and was competing on a national level at one point, develop a style that compensated for my weakness that isn't capitalized on my strengths, and this component of that was cutting weight. I had to get very good, or one of the few advances I had was I swept very easily, because this poor thermal regulation, which meant I could cut water weight very dramatically in short periods of time, so I became very good and I had to study how this is how my self-tracking developed. I had to study how the kidneys worked, how sodium retention worked, how potassium sparing diuretics worked, and I didn't use anything illegal at the time. I was just getting a very astute understanding of how water is retained or expelled and optimizing that for losing, say, 15 to 25 pounds in a 24-hour period in some cases, which is very dangerous, and I don't recommend anyone do it, but that is a part of wrestling. I would do that and rehydrate and say anywhere from six to ten hours, and then brush my opponents. That's a bad thing. Needless to say, and that didn't scale perfectly to the highest levels, because when you get to increasingly competitive arenas, the arsenal that people are familiar with is very broad. When you get to the nationals, everyone is cutting a ridiculous amount of weight so that no longer becomes a huge, unfair advantage, but I think that those experiences wrestling and also a handful of the coaches I had, now that I think about it, you know, we were at you and I have chatted before about sort of making the possible possible, and I had coaches one in particular, Mr. Buxton, who, by the way, almost all of the people from that wrestling team, just my class, you know, my set of classes in high school, so trained under Mr. Buxton went on to do really incredible things later in life professionally, almost all of them, including my wrestling partner, who went on to found donors, choose.org, which is a massively successful, the non-pro-education nonprofit, you know, endorsed by Michelle Obama and Oprah and so on. But Mr. Buxton would push us beyond the point we thought was humanly possible in each of our cases, and if I was exhausted, had to puke, he'd be like, "There's the bucket for puking, you have more in you, go get that done and come back." It was just like, "Oh my God." So well past the point that anyone of us would have tapped out, given up, called it quits, looked at ourselves as failures, he would push us through that sort of valley of death to the opposite side where we would come out stronger with more confidence, believing that we could really do the impossible or what we had previously defined as impossible. So those are a few things that come to mind right off the bat and is having a huge impact on everything that came afterwards. So let me ask you this, and this is where I'm going to start, you know, having grown up with that stark contrast of have and have not, and you yourself now, you know, having been exposed to wealth and accumulated a significant amount of wealth. How did that shape and, you know, change your view around wealth and money? That's a big one. It's a good question. I haven't really thought of it. I would say a few things. The first is that when I was growing up and working in the summers as a busboy typically, I noticed a huge difference between three classes of rich people. Number one, you had the old money. So people who had had millions, tens of millions, billions of dollars for decades. And those people were fine. They were actually very well behaved and polite for the most part because they were over the fact that they had money. Does that make sense? It would be poor taste for them to flaunt it in a really obnoxious way. And so I think in that respect, they had integrated money or wealth into an appropriate place and context in their lives. Those people were fine. The people who married into those families, not always the case, there were some real nuisances, really entitled duchesses of Phil in the Blank who would have a 10-person dinner with 20 kids crying and screaming and throwing bread around and then not tip at all. I mean, it was a really egregious bad behavior. But generally speaking, old money was fine. Then you had the self-made people and I've heard this is a pretty eight hour. This is not everyone's experience with self-made folks, but I ended up having the opportunity to bust for Billy Joel one day and he was so gracious to me and answered a bunch of silly questions because I felt like I had to ask him questions. It was my once in a lifetime opportunity to talk to his celebrity, but he was really just a pleasant guy to interact with. He was not rushed or abrasive and I could have just caught him on a bad day. Who knows? But he tipped me $20 for a cup of coffee and that just had such a humongous -- it made such a humongous impression on me, the contrast between, say, that and the last class which was sort of the Nuvo reach waving dollars in your face using money as a status symbol to put themselves above other people. Very oftentimes the locals where those like pull up in Mercedes and park in a handicap spot, you're like, yeah, fuck you if you give them any shit. Sue me, you know, and you're just like, what? Really? It's usually when the kids would tear off their head on a rinsom. Collecting hood ornaments from people like that was kind of a sport among a lot of my friends. And, you know, even at this point, I have no sympathy for those folks. So, but it has been challenging for me to reconcile going home and basically being a city person. We would always call them, you know, the city people, oh, this goddamn city people. And now the fact of the matter is I have more friends in New York City than I do perhaps in my hometown. And I still have friends I grew up with and it's not like I've abandoned those people. I was just texting with one of my childhood friends today who still lives out there. But it's been challenging for me to figure out where I kind of fit and what I've concluded is maybe it's not important for you to conclude where I fit. It's not important for me to find the appropriate category. I'm just somewhere in between. That's fine. It's okay. I see both sides of a lot of the arguments, but I still tend to, of course, fall on the side of the locals where it's like, look, I got Lyme disease last summer and I was decimated for have been still dealing with a lot of health problems. And part of the reason there's so much Lyme disease is that there's a massive overpopulation of deer, including many sick deer and older deer who should be called and the proposal to have sharpshooters come in and thin the herd for health reasons was vetoed by city people who vacation out there aren't there full time and don't want to see Bambi get shot. And it's like, well, that's great. You have this romantic association with these disease vectors, these, you know, tick-carrying those large mice with hooves, but you are using your sophisticated sort of a politicking abilities coming out of the city where that's more highly valued to cause big problems for locals. And I still think that's bullshit, but going off on perhaps tension, but I balance it back and forth between empathy for both sides and so that's been challenging. It's been a long time. I'm going to be a little bit more than I am. I'm going to be a little bit more than I am. I'm going to be a little bit more than I am. 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No violence in the lobby. Seriously? Anyway, sit back, relax and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Starring your favorite snacks, drinks and more. Download and start for free delivery in your first three orders, rated H for hungry audiences. Offer valid for a limited time, minimum $10 per order, excludes restaurants, additional terms and fees apply. So let me ask you this. Just listening to you talk about that. One of the questions that came up for me as I was thinking through it and hearing what you're saying is how has all of that affected the social dynamics and relationship building that you do with the influential and wealthy people that you interact with? And also one of the questions that I've asked so many people here who have accumulated wealth is what is it that separates sort of these people who are wealthy from a mindset perspective from the ones who struggle? Let's see. Let me answer the first question first. The first question, the answer to the first question is I am actually in a process of reducing my network, so to speak, or loose ties that require heavy management. Then I am in the process of building my network. And what I've realized, this is another reason why I'm actually cutting down on the number of books I read, is that I want to specialize in not just in case information or just in case relationships, but just in time information and just in time relationships. And the reason for that is there's a 90% less, who knows, a decrease in cognitive burden when you approach it that way. Instead of reading like 10 business books in case and highlighting things, in which case if the information is actually needed, you just need to go back and reread everything. What if I could establish a network of, and really when I say that I mean group of friends, because it's a lot less effort to do the hard work on the front end to find world-class performers who you can actually be friends with, including outside interests and personal conversations and so on. Can I have a group of say 10 to 20 people who have access to anyone I would possibly need access to? And therefore any information I might need. And that is, rather than having individual relationships with every contingency resource, person or information or otherwise, can I buy the fact that I'm being endorsed or backed by a close friend, get in touch with a friend of theirs who can help me with say a medical issue, like the Lyme disease, right? I immediately, even though I didn't know them directly, had access to two or three of the world's top infectious disease specialists. So that's, that's how I think about it. And collecting business cards and going about networking in en masse for volume, I think, is a major mistake and I've never taken that approach, even when I was fresh out of college and really didn't know anybody. I volunteered at events, business events, so put on by a sort of startup nonprofits and so on, or paid organizations. I'll volunteer and get to the point where I had more responsibility because I would take on additional responsibilities they didn't ask me to do and that really separates you as a volunteer. Most volunteers do barely enough just to get by because they feel like they've earned that since they're not getting paid, which is a stupid perspective to have. So I would take on additional responsibility until I was at a point where I could say, interact and help organize panelists and speakers, all of whom were very well known and powerful and successful on their own right. And that is how a nobody gets to know, at least on a very, very minimal personal level, to make a good impression on people who are like a thousand pay grades above you. So I took that approach. In terms of money and wealth, I don't think having a lot of money and being wealthy are the same things. I know a lot of people who literally have hundreds of millions of dollars who are very unhappy. Sure. So I'll answer your question to you. So what makes someone truly wealthy in my mind? And what allows someone to amass that amount of money? The first question, what makes someone truly wealthy, I think, is a combination of not just a achievement because it's easy. It's very easy to default to racking up sort of feathers in the cap and more money and obsess on those types of measurables by focusing as an A type of personality on achievement, right? Just doing more and earning more. The bigger challenge for people who are hardwired that way, and I'm certainly this way, is balancing that with appreciating what you have. And that is a necessary component because if you don't appreciate, for instance, if you don't appreciate what you have now, you will never appreciate what you get later. So what is the end goal of all this achieving, achieving and amassing? So I build in a gratitude practice and journaling in the morning. There's three things that I'm grateful for. So so on to make a habit of present state awareness of things that I already have, right? And so that's answer number one. How do you amass or what is the mindset that allows someone to amass that amount of money? The next is, I think, the ability to completely question any type of assumption or best practice in any industry. Nothing is sacred. They are perfectly happy to turn everything upside down. And whether that's, you know, they say, oh, like, you need to be warm and fuzzy as an employee, as a boss. Like, that's the whole thing these days. It's like, really? Steve Jobs wasn't that way. Henry Ford wasn't that way. They were hardasses. And if you're hardwired to be a hardest, like, look, this is going to be a military organization. And if you don't want to be part of that, that's totally fine. You're opting in by applying for a job, but understand what you're signing up for. Like, this is steel team six. This isn't Teletubbies. And they, or they might say it's like, okay, well, people say you have to have an office, do this and raise money in this following way. They're like, screw that, right? Like automatic. They have, they're worth more than a billion dollars. And they have a completely distributed workforce. Hundreds of people spread all over the world. No central, no central office per se. And so if I look at those types of folks, I noticed those things. Also, another thing that I noticed is they are, they have trained themselves or are predisposed. And I think it's a combination of both to not waste energy. And what I mean by that is, I remember being, to give a very clear example, I was in Vietnam traveling. I had worked with room to read and a few other organizations to build libraries and schools in Vietnam. And my readers had helped with that. And I went on a trip to document, take photos and video and so forth. And we were playing pool. A group of my friends and I, and one of them was Matt Mullen, like the CEO of automatic. And I saw a tweet from a very well known journalist who was like, not happy. Looks like WordPress.com is really slow right now. And I talked to Matt and he's like, yeah, one of our two data centers is down. Tell him that we're working on it. And he was just like sipping a beer and playing pool at the end of the day in Vietnam. And I was like, wait a second. One of your two data centers is, isn't that a big fucking deal? And he's just like, doesn't do me any good to get all around though. My team is working on it. Absolutely zero point in me getting remotely ruffled feathers about it or anxious. And he didn't say it. And exactly this was like, man, like done working on it. That's all we can do. And then just had a sip beer and went back to playing pool. And he was completely unfazed. I mean, completely unfazed. And I've noticed that in a lot of my friends here in Silicon Valley who just have fortunes beyond almost anyone's imagination. So those are a few things that come to mind right off the bat. Interesting. So we'll get into some of the things. Yeah, those guys just as a side note, I think that it's important to think about not just time management, which is a buzzword that is used a lot, but energy and attention management. You can have all the time in the world. But if you're distracted preoccupied with something that's happening, for instance, if you check your email first thing Saturday morning, even though you'd committed to do it on Monday morning, and then you'd find a bunch of problems that you can't fix until Monday morning. Your weekend's gone. You're not going to have any relaxation. You're not going to have any productivity. So you have all the time in the world, but you have no tension. You have no energy because you're dissipating it with that preoccupation, right? So that's the type of thing that these guys would not do because they understand the value of not just the time. The time is worthless without attention and energy, but the attention and energy itself. So I actually have some questions around that, but I want to go back to an earlier part of our conversation about wrestling and a coach. This is something I've asked in some form or another to a bunch of people. And I probably have asked it a dozen times because I haven't found an answer that satisfies me yet. And I don't know that I ever will because it's one of those types of questions. But you have this pivotal moment in your life. And you know, you recognized it. And I'm wondering why you think we miss those moments and what we can do if we did happen to miss them. I didn't realize what I was getting at the time. It's a very Mr. Miyagi type experience. It was only in retrospect that I realized how valuable all that was. So it's not like at the time I was like, Oh, thank God. I'm getting this incredible education through these horrible drills that he's making me do until I vomit in a bucket. It wasn't like that. I was like, Oh my God, I am so exhausted. How am I going to do my next set of classes because where I transferred to a New Hampshire, I went to a boarding school. We had classes from like eight AM to six something PM mandatory sports, mandatory chapel in the morning. It was brutal. So I was more preoccupied or concerned with just keeping afloat and, you know, making sure my cloth hair looked good for girls or who knows what at that point, you know, 15 years old, 16 years old. But what can you do if you missed it? I don't think it's too late. You can engineer these type of things. It's and that's kind of the entire ethos of everything that I've done, right? For our work week, for our body, for our chef, is that it's not too late. I mean, there are too many examples of people who start multi-million dollar companies in their 50s and 60s who have massive breakthroughs or publish their first award-winning novels in their 50s, 60s, 70s, the idea that you can't manifest this type of outsized, incredible success in multiple areas or renegotiate basically the genetic limits you thought you had for a muscle gain or foul loss or endurance. I mean, there's so many of my readers who have taken what I've done in, say, for our body and in every chapter, like ultra-endurance or the effortless super-human or the, you know, breath-holding any of these readers have destroyed my results, which people thought were crazy when they first read them. I have dozens and hundreds and thousands of readers who have just demolished my results, who have two X, three X to my results in every one of those chapters. People can find, I usually star a lot of them when they come up on Twitter. So if you go to my Twitter favorites at T Ferris, the two R's and two S's, people can see some of them. But it's just not too late. I think it's like, look, you know, spilt milk, water in the bridge, choose your metaphor. Right. You know, let's not, let's not obsess on the past, let's, let's focus on how you can engineer that stuff right now. And if you look at my career, keep in mind, nobody knew the hell I was before 2007, right? And this is, you know, I was about to turn 30 and that's certainly young. But if I hadn't written that book until five, ten years later, I could have published that book at a much later stage, right? And would have, would it have struck the court and had that impact? I don't know. But there are so many examples of this. You know, it's like you take someone like Garrett Kemp, who had, you know, a reasonable amount of success with stumble upon and so on. But it wasn't until very recently, I mean, in the last few years that Uber, which he co-founded, turned into what it is now, right? And, and there are people who'd say, like, oh yeah, what he did at stumble upon or wasn't a huge success or what he did in between wasn't a huge success or whatever it is, all the naysayers and the people who, who nip it, everyone's heels. And, you know, somebody said to me once, you know, statues aren't erected to critics. And I think that's a great thing to keep in mind. So the, the upshot of that is it's not too late. Focus on how to engineer those things because there are recipes that work and just model world-class performers who exemplify the characteristics that you have. And ideally, model people who not only have the success in a given field that you want, but also who have, holistically, the life that you want, because you can find people with hundreds of millions of dollars who yell at their kids, whose wives or husbands hate them, who do a lot of drugs on the weekend or on the evenings, just to live with themselves. And you need to, you need to keep in mind what the total picture is, like do, do I think Steve Jobs is an amazing creator on many levels, a visionary product guy as well as CEO? Absolutely. Of course. Do I think he was a happy guy? Probably not. I think that he was a, was he a pleasure to be around? No, he was not definitively. So it's good to look at it holistically and not just piecemeal. I mean, there are things you can borrow from someone like Steve Jobs, of course, namely things like, and this is another one that groups these types of ultra performers together. He said something along the lines, you know, to do anything great, you have to say no to a thousand small things. And I'm paraphrasing that, but that is also the, and Warren Buffett has said what separates the people who are good from those who are great or the people who get good results and those people who get great results is the people who get great results say no to almost everything. And so it'd be, there'd be another observation that I've made over time repeatedly. Yeah. So the one other thing you brought up earlier was that wrestling gave you an individualized style of competition and, you know, the reason I'm interested in how we find that in our own lives is because I think it's very easy, especially on the internet, to get caught up in comparison and in competition with every single person that is out there. You know, I mean, I can look at you and think, well, I didn't accomplish what Tim did. And you know, I've had a lot of awesome things happen in the last couple of weeks. And then the other thing I'm interested in talking about is this idea of compensating, you know, or capitalizing and strengthening for your weaknesses and how you figure out how to do that in your own life. Does that make sense? It does. The last part is perhaps a little easier to answer. I think the comparison, the desire and impulse to compare yourself to others is it's a it's a it's an element of being a human being. I don't think it's very hard to eradicate that completely. I think. That's fine. But what you can do is realize, as is very popularly said here in Silicon Valley, you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with physically, emotionally, financially, and so on. You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So you need to try to choose that inner circle very carefully and look at the people you're spending time with. So for instance, and this doesn't mean you have to move to Silicon Valley and know the people I know you could join a local, uh, EO chapter entrepreneurs, organization chapter, for instance, and within that group in any, in any given city, you will find ballers. You will find just killers who are doing amazing jobs. And if you have dinner with such a person, you sit down and talk about certain problems you're facing, you will probably have your mind blown at their perspective or how they look at the problem. And that has always just been a game changer for me. When I look at these guys and I have dinner with them and it's like my heady problems and so trivial and ridiculous, they're the types of things that wouldn't even consume a millisecond of Matt Mullen week's time. For instance, you just pick them up, whatever, drop it and then on to the next thing. Like it is as opposed to like obsessing on like, you know what I should have said to that guy when he sent me that rude email, fuck that guy. I should have done this. And it's like this internal conversation in my head for four nights. What a waste of energy, right? And then you spend time with, with some of these guys or somebody that you seek out and find at say an EO chapter or elsewhere. And you realize, wow, that was just the most egregious waste of energy imaginable. And you start to model this person, you look at them as a role model and you start to ask yourself, for instance, and I've done this before, I mean, it sounds funny, kind of weird and creepy. Hopefully Matt isn't listening to this. But yeah, I interviewed Matt on the podcast, he's a very good buddy of mine. But sometimes when I'm about to get angry and I catch myself because I'm very aggressive, very impatient, kind of prone to just barreling down and going on the offense, which has helped me a lot of ways, but it's not always helped. I will ask myself, what would Matt do? In this situation, what would Matt do? So that has been a very, very helpful pattern interrupt that I use in lieu of spending at the time of time with with someone like Matt every day, which is not going to happen necessarily because we're always traveling and so on, but I can knowing him as well as I do, and you could get that even from a book. Like if you read about Ben Franklin or Steve Jobs, like, what would Ben Franklin do? But for me, it's what would Matt Mullen do? Because I'm trying to absorb thrust Moses the calmness that he has and I do the same thing with a lot of my friends, Kevin Rose and other people, they all have characteristics that I that I want to develop myself. Let me ask you that, Sammy, when you first started pitching before our work week, I know you got rejected by, you know, well, it's like 27 or 29 publishers, I don't remember the exact same. Yeah, I've lost count between somewhere between 26 and 27 publishers, yeah. So my question is actually around managing your own psychology through this, you know, process of the entrepreneurial journey. And I'm interested in a couple of different things here. Sammy, do you think that grit is something that certain people just inherently have built into them? Or is it something we can cultivate? And if so, how? And in your own sort of journey to getting to where you're at, have you ever had any really sort of rock bottom or dark moments where you just felt like you could see no hope for your future? Okay, so grit, grit or stick-tutiveness, I'm guessing is how we could define that. I would imagine there's a genetic component, there's genetic component to just about everything, but it is also a, it is also a coachable and learnable skill, I think, or attribute. And you know, one of Matt Mullenway, not to make this the Matt Mullen make show, but one of one of the things that he said to me long ago, when I asked him, well, is it this or is it this? And he said, that's a false dichotomy. And that's a fancy way of saying it doesn't have to be either or. So whenever somebody offers me like, well, you can do A or B, like I'm like, could we do both? What is option C? And Henry Ford would say, you know, when you think you've, when you've looked at all of the options, just remember, you have it. And so I would say that grit can be developed by sequentially or essentially progressively exposing yourself to discomfort in different ways. And that makes you more comfortable with plowing through pain or temporary embarrassment, things like that. Which is why there are these comfort challenges in the four hour work week, which people resonated incredibly with got a great response from us like every chapter is like, look, I'm telling you what to do, but you're not going to do it unless you have some certain level of comfort with discomfort. So here's an exercise to make you very uncomfortable, you know, go to Starbucks and lay down on the floor for 10 seconds without telling anyone why you're doing it and then just get back up. And you're not going to cause any harm, no one's going to, you know, and it's like, there's no real harm to be had there, but it will make you very uncomfortable. And they seem silly, but those things transfer, those things transfer very, very well. So so so grit is really a matter of practice and exposure. Have I had rock bottom moments? Oh, yeah. I've had tons. I've had plenty of rock bottom moments. The males in my extended family have predisposition to depression. So I've had extended bouts of depression and feeling like there was no hope and there were no options. And I was stuck. I was in a corner, no options at all, et cetera. And I've, you know, I've written about that in one post called productivity hacks or productivity tricks for the neurotic, manic, depressive and crazy and then apprentices like me. So if you look for productivity hacks or tricks for neurotic in my name, the postal pop right up and I talk about how I talk about one of my particularly difficult depressive periods and how that affected my behavior and my, my, my self perception and insecurities and so on. The, it's been said by, for instance, custom motto is a, it was the trainer of Mike Tyson at his heyday that, you know, the, the hero in the coward feel the same thing. It's how the hero responds that is different. And I, I think that everyone, unless you're a mutant, but most people I have met, including, I mean, household names, you would know that you that are, have sort of super hero status, uh, have these days, they have days where it's like, they hit snooze for an hour or two on a weekend because they don't want to get up because they have these neurotic and worried sauce in their head and they just do not want to face the day. I mean, this is, this is not uncommon. It is part of the human condition. So I think that, um, uh, my general coping mechanism, there are a couple of them and I, I elaborate on them in the, in the blog post quite a bit, but exercise is kind of the cure all for a, for a lot of biochemical reasons, for a lot of structural reasons, meaning creating something in your day as a hag upon which to hang everything else. If you're trying to get back on your feet, I find that, that exercise, which could just be a long walk, uh, and I'm, I think walking is very underrated. I try to walk an hour or two a day, uh, which has, I'm not doing for any, any fitness purpose. It is, uh, we've, we've made a lot of evolutionary trade offs to be able to walk and perambulate the distances that we can cover as human beings. It's true. Like we've made a ton of sacrifices to be able to do that with the nucal ligament and everything in the back of our head, which prevents our heads from wobbling like a pig when we want. Uh, anyways, uh, so those are, those are a few of my thoughts on those two questions. Do you think these depressive tendencies are just a part of sort of a hero's journey? If you're going to do anything of great significance, like you have to go through a tough time. Yeah, I, like it's a rite of passage almost. I think so. Uh, I mean, if you're going to do anything extraordinary, uh, by definition, it is extraordinary. You will be unaccustomed to experiencing the stresses that go along with that. And the stresses can be internal, it can be external. They can be you stress EU, like euphoria, good stress that builds you up and helps you grow like lifting weights. Um, you can experience that in a business capacity or it can be distress, which is tearing you down. And oftentimes it's a combination of both, depending on how you, how you look at that stress, your perspective and your, you know, the lens through which you look at it. But, uh, the, you have been doing some screenwriting. And this is just a hobby recently and it's like, I have, I have the writers journey right next to me, which is talking about Joseph Campbell and how that fits into movies like Star Wars and so forth. The all as lost moment is pretty real. I got to tell you, and what was, what was funny about, well, funny in retrospect, not when it was happening, filming the Tim Ferriss experiment where you were, you know, tackling these crazy skills every week, like professional poker. All right. It's like, I know nothing and then I'm going to play against professionals for thousands of dollars in like four days or learning a language well enough in three or four days to go on live TV and for six minutes in that language, just crazy, crazy stuff is, uh, it became almost a running joke for my crew that like every, uh, every second day of filming, the night of every second day, I would basically have a nervous breakdown. And I suppose I never, I never thought of it this way, but you could probably take the hero's journey and map it right on to every single episode and watch me just like, crash and burn and self doubt and like self loathing. Um, almost every time I like this, he ended the second day or depending on the skill you like the middle of the middle to end of the third day. So I think that it is part of it and that's why it's, it's, it's helpful to get into the practice of, uh, I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who recommended this, but every day doing something that you fear, like every day, do one thing, whatever it is, you know, approaching a cute girl, just saying hi, could be that simple, laying down in Starbucks, you know, having that uncomfortable conversation you've been putting off, uh, calling maybe a parent that you haven't, that you've grown a little distant from and saying, I love you something really vulnerable like that. I mean, it could be any of these things, but like every day do one thing that makes you nervous, makes you fearful. And you know, on top of that, you know, I would also put in that, uh, basket of rituals that I find very helpful, you reach out to someone and express gratitude, uh, say thank you to someone that you haven't said, thank you to in a long time or ever, right, could be a childhood friend, it could be someone you went to college with, you haven't talked to in 10 years, could be a coworker, you see every day, whatever it is, if you do those two things every day, man, I really feel like those tiny microchangers, uh, cumulatively can just produce monsters in the best way possible, like monsters of productivity and just break out successes. It's the little things that we do repeatedly that make us very, very cool. I have a secret. I wore the wrong foundation for years. Then I discovered Ilma Kiyaj. 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So, you know, this little lead is into talking about the TV show, but what the big questions that has been on my mind is I knew I was going to talk to you, I was trying to think of how do we get an angle on this, but you have so many interests and different projects that you work on, and something that I was really curious about is how you choose what you're going to work on, and how do you decide that, hey, this is what I'm going to do next, because it seems like anything is an option at this point. With great difficulty. Well, you know, I read a book recently, several chapters which I thought were fantastically good called Who, and it is a book about hiring, and it's written by or at least co-authored by the son of the author of a book called Top Graining, which is considered by a lot of CEOs to be the book on hiring, but those who've read both say that Who is more direct, more actionable. And that book takes the perspective, which is maybe a contrast to say Simon Sinek who says start with why, right, start with why, then you figure out the how and so on, but these guys start with who, which you pick the people you want to work with, and that dictates the projects that you choose. Now, I don't 100% fall in either of those camps, but I do think that the latter is very interesting to ponder because I so strongly believe that you are the average of the five people you associate with most. It's like, all right, well, what if I picked the people I wanted to work with and that dictated my projects, even if I did that for a six month period of time, what would happen? And I have been trying to do that more and more, and I have keeping in mind, and it's taken me a long time to realize this, but a good deal with a bad person is a bad deal. That makes sense. Contracts don't protect you against anything, really. I mean, it gives you the right to sue someone later, perhaps, but contracts are only as good as the people who sign them. And so if you think you've got, oh my God, I can make millions of dollars from this deal. It's great. Like, yeah, this guy's kind of a pain in the ass. Yeah, he's like, sometimes goes back on his word, blah, blah, blah, but this contract is amazing. We've negotiated it. It's beautiful. It's not going to be beautiful. I can almost guarantee you that that deal is going to sour as soon as the paperwork is signed. And to that end, there are people I've really, really enjoyed working with over time or just enjoy hanging out with. And that's how I've ended up advising a lot of the companies that I advise, for that matter. You know, as I'm really close friends with, say, Garrett Camp, and so I become an advisor to stumble upon, stumble upon, doesn't quite work out as everyone might hope, but then Uber happens and I end up being an advisor to Uber. Well, thank God for that, you know, and it's just been a revelation for me to realize that much earlier than you would think, you don't have to wait until you're making millions of dollars to make this decision. You can choose who you want to work with in a lot of ways. There's actually a lot of latitude for people to do that, even if you feel like you have no leverage and you're a new hire at your first jobs, and this is why one of the core skills you have to learn is how to communicate well and negotiate. So go get books like Getting Pass No or The Secrets of Power Negotiating by Dawson and practice, role play. Go to a farmer's market on the weekends and use that as your comfort exercise to haggle for things. And don't be a total dick, actually buy something. Don't just haggle everybody. There's like a total bastard move. And that I think is, yeah, that's how I frame these things. It's interesting because I may be subconsciously doing that without even realizing it. Like I've realized that almost every project I have chosen to do that I really enjoy doing has always involved some sort of creative person or an artist in the last two years. I'm like, if I don't get to work with somebody like that, then I'm like, why are we doing this if it's just, you know, mechanics and marketing, I'm bored to death. Yeah. Absolutely. And we're, I mean, we could talk about all different aspects of this, but how people choose projects, I also am choosing projects with certain minimal thresholds. So if there is a financial component, and there are sometimes financial components, it's like, well, if you say yes to everything that is kind of cool, you will not have the bandwidth to do the hell yes amazing game changing things. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. And I heard of a demo that was done in a classroom at one point that that's that really stuck with me. And I think I read about this where a professor took a mason jar, you know, one of these, these large ish from a glass containers and he said, all right, watch this. I have, you know, a cup of sand, a cup of smaller rocks, and then I have two big rocks. And he put in the sand, then put in the mixed rocks and then he couldn't fit even one of the large rocks in. And then he said, but what if we do this a different way and then he took another mason jar with two big rocks in, then the smaller rocks and then the sand and everything fit. He's like, you have to choose the big things first, or you won't be able to fit them in later. And that is very difficult to do, particularly when you have a degree of, say, public exposure and a lot of inbound offers, like I'm very fortunate in a way, but also cursed to have a lot of kind of cool things that come across my plate every day. And for a very long period of time, this was probably last year, I was drowning in kind of cool things where I was like a six out of 10 excited. And I had made all these commitments. And I was actually pretty unhappy. I was, I was drowning in these things that I wasn't totally lit up by, but that were kind of cool. And I didn't have the bandwidth to do, I had to miss and say no to one or two things that were absolutely what I would have wanted to take up all of my time because I had too many pre-existing commitments. And I've made a concerted effort to reorganize my life to avoid that type of problem. But it's, it's very challenging. You have to, you have to get comfortable saying no to almost everyone and recognizing that there's no one path to success, but the path to failure is certainly trying to make everyone happy. And in a digital world where everyone expects an immediate response, people are going to get hurt feelings and you have to establish a meditative practice or some type of preparation for your day that will allow you to accept that and not try to put a bandit on everyone by making commitments. And Marcus Aurelius, I'm a huge stoic philosophy fan and proponent and I read stoic philosophy all the time because I think it's a great operating system for high stress environments. But Marcus Aurelius in meditations, one of his letters and I'm going to probably massacre this because I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like, you know, today you will be faced by ungrateful people who are heady, who have, you know, trivial vendettas, who are going to be obnoxious and rude and otherwise make your life difficult. He's like, so basically just preparing for that so that he's mentally prepared and isn't blindsided, doesn't react in a non-conscious way that compromises him. So that makes sense. He's like, look, this is going to happen. So let me prepare for in advance mentally so that I make the right, I have the correct response to me. And so I use established policies, for instance, I have a policy where if any startup tries to rush me into a decision by applying false time constraints, I'm out because that's bad fucking behavior as far as I'm concerned. So if they're like, hey, you know, we've never talked before, but so instead I should email and we're doing this and our round is closing in 48 hours, you know, are you in minimum? Is this amount of money? And I'm like, sorry, I can't make a decision that quickly. What is your leeway? And they're like, no, man, we're closing right now. We've already over committed. I'm like, all right, cool. Well, then peace. I'll see if I can, I can share from the sidelines, but I do not. And I borrowed that from another investor who was very, very successful. And that's one of his policies is like, if you try to rush me, unreasonably, you're out. I don't care how good the deal is. I don't care how awesome you are. If you try to apply that kind of false time constraint, I'm out. And just having that rule gets rid of 30% of the pitches, 40% of the pitches that I get, it's very easy. You know, other rules I might have are if someone sends me a deal, they're like, hey, man, wanted to introduce you to the CEO or introduce you to the steel. It's like, you know, is and I'm borrowing all of these. I didn't make it ends up. It's like, is this one of the top three entrepreneurs that you would back and are you investing in the steel? If the answer is no to either one of those, then I'll pass, right? And just by doing that, which is really hard to do consistently because people are like, oh, my God, like, but that guy invested in my other deal, I feel badly. So I'm going to invest. And you might have to do some of that political, like social capital work, but if you do it all the time, you get bad returns. And I've had really crazy returns in the startup world. I mean, people can check out all my deals at angel list, angel.co/tim. You can see, you know, 30, 40 details that have done. And it's not because I'm an idiot, so when it comes or just a savant, when it comes to angel investing, it's that I borrowed these rules. And so those are the recipes that I try to find no matter what I'm doing. And then you can get these crazy returns, whether it's learning language or learning drumming or startup investing without Warren Buffett-like predisposition, because the guy's like a robot. I don't know how he does what he does. So that's how I think about it. Well, let's do this. I mean, we're giving close to about an hour here, and I haven't really given you a chance to talk about the TV show, but I wanted to go into one specific thing that you learned just because I being an avid surfer, that was the one that I picked. I was like, let's talk about that whole experience. And, you know, you talked about each show being a hero's journey of sorts, and the surfing one happened to be my favorite one. Because I remember when somebody told me, I said, I'm like, how's that going to work? As a surfer, I know one thing, the variables are never the same. Like, it's always inconsistent. So I'm really interested into what that whole experience was like for you. Surfing was tough, surfing was really tough, not surprising. Like you said, because you're not just learning how to balance on a board, you're not just learning how to pop up, you're not just learning how to ride once you are up, but you have to learn, like you said, to navigate and try to predict a constantly changing environment and terrain. So it's completely unlike something like snowboarding, for instance. It's also completely unlike snowboarding, in the sense that there are many more physical attributes that are developed over time for surfing, specifically, you know, I had layered Hamilton helping me, which was pretty awesome. That guy's just a beast. For those people who don't know, he's considered the undisputed king of big wave surfing for very good reasons. I mean, he's been on the cover of surfing magazine just with the title, Oh My God, as the headline. He's 50 51 and the guy is a better athlete than almost every 20 something professional athlete I've ever met. The guy is just a monster. And one of the things he said to me is, you know, they should really call surfing paddling because that is 99% of the time that you're going to spend on the water and the best paddlers are almost always the best surfers. So he was not only deconstructing all of that, but figuring out, all right, if you're unfamiliar with the water, much more so if you're afraid of the water, like I have been my whole life and particularly drowning, what is the sequence that you use to try to establish a basic vocabulary that you can use on the water? And it was a really terrifying, embarrassing, but ultimately, I mean, I don't overuse this word, but like life changing experience. And after that, this was not chronicled, although I have some pictures. I went to Costa Rica with a friend of mine with a couple of surfing coaches and like surfed on my own and Costa Rica and waves that were me. These are not 30 foot waves, but they were for me, I mean, over my head, which is a huge for me. And it was a really awesome experience. And what made it the most, the biggest takeaway for me was removing my own excuses, killing my own excuses, because I talk to friends, doesn't matter what age there, they're 27. They're like, yeah, man, you know, once you pass 25, oh man, my joints hurt. And then you talk to somebody who's 30, they're like, yeah, man, I'll just turn 30, you know, like it's all downhill. And then you talk to somebody at 3540, they all have that same excuse, like, oh, you know, and then I'm hanging out with Laird Hamilton, as soon as 50s and he'll crush any fool. Like, all right. Oh, you're the, you know, first round draft pick from the NFL. Yeah, come to my gym. He'll crush like he's just beast. And on, but I was like, all right, well, that's Laird, right? And I think people do the same thing with me sometimes, like, oh, it's Tim Ferriss. So I'm like, oh, it's Laird. So of course I couldn't do that. Then I meet a bunch of our Titus, who's one of the Hawaiian elders, the amazing surfer who we interact with. And I looked at a photo on his wall surfing like a, I mean, to me, it looked like a 50 foot wave. And in Hawaii, they measure the, they measure the face of the wave. Yeah. They measure from the back, not the face. So it's like, yeah, it's 20 foot wave. And then somebody visiting from California goes out and just almost dies because it's actually 40 feet tall. And so Titus, there's this picture on his garage wall riding this just behemoth of a wave. I mean, one of the biggest things I've ever seen. And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, it was my 50th birthday and I wanted to take a commemorative photo. So we went out and surfed. That's oh my God, you know, all right, all my excuses are complete bullshit. Like I just have to, I just have to euthanize all of them one in the head, just like, you know, one at a time, just take them all out behind the garage and shoot them in the head because it's, they're such BS, such total BS. So I, you know, I'm hoping to help people do the same thing where it's like, come on, if you're putting someone on a pedestal, it's not because they deserve to be on the pedestal. It's because you don't want to take the responsibility for the fact that the excuse you're giving is total BS. And yeah, I've just seen too many outliers, too many seemingly freaks of nature do things that it turns out you can replicate with this, with the right recipe, the right crit sheet. So sure thing was a great experience. And we, I also had one day, this isn't Kawhi, and I was out on the water and sitting out there on the water with, with one of the other coaches and Kamalay, Alexander, I think his last name is, who's amazing. And there was like a sea turtle, like what by my feet. And then there was like double rainbow. And then we saw a whale and I'm like, you got to be kidding me. This is like one of those sort of cheesy murals that you see on the wall, like the wave in the dolphin and the otter underwater in the rainbow. And I was like, yeah, right. I mean, maybe on a t-shirt that you'd buy at like Fisherman's Wharf, but that, that stuff doesn't happen. And then it all happened once in Kawhi, and I was like, all right, you know what? Even if I am a terrible surfer, I get why people surf. Do you know what I mean? Even if you're a terrible technical surfer, I totally understand why they come out whenever possible to do this. Oh, I mean, I've been doing it for about seven years now. And I mean, the minute you stand up for the first time, that's it. Your life is divided into two distinct moments before and after surfing. Yeah. And I think that's true with a lot of skills, right? I mean, having learned to swim in my thirties, it's before and after. Like there is before swimming and after swimming. And then the scope of things that seem possible to me is infinitely larger as a result. And I think that's true with a lot, with a lot of skills. And that was true for me, you know, tenfold over with all the experiments. Wow. Well, Tim, I know you got to get going here. It seems like we could get to talk for another hour easily about all the things that you have going on. So I want to wrap with my final question, which is how we close all interviews here at The Unmistake. We'll create it. I think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable home. Something that makes someone unmistakable is being different and not just better. And part of doing that is knowing thyself and being true to yourself, be that weird person, which is yourself. You are not normal. No one is normal. No such thing. And embrace the things that make you unique, even if you might do them as weaknesses. Like my impatience, for instance, I've harnessed that and channeled it into specific categories of activities where that is rewarded to the extent possible. And it's not always a help, but you know, take that and use it. And if you think you're quirky and weird, guess what? I bet there are 10,000 people out there who love exactly that type of quirkiness and weirdness. And that is what I've done in my books. That is what I've done on the podcast. And the challenge is with pressure from people outside who might say, do this because you'll hit a bigger market. Do this because it'll appeal to these people is sticking to your guns and being consistent. And if you are just yourself and have that consistency, it will set you apart. Well, Tim, this has been really, really eye opening and insightful. And I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights and your story and parts of your journey that we haven't heard before with our listeners. Yeah, totally my pleasure, man. And I would encourage people for a year to get the rights to make these resurrected. But the TV show, I'm putting out all 13 episodes at once, they're the most incredible teachers you've ever seen. And it basically delivers a playbook for becoming a world-class performer that anyone can use. And it's Tim Ferriss experiment. So on iTunes, you can find it iTunes.com/Tim Ferriss with 2RS2S and then if you want extras and extended scenes, conversations with layered and tightest that didn't make it into the show, for instance, then you can go and find that at 4hourquake.com/tv. Cool. And for everybody listening, we'll wrap the show with that. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Unmistakable Creative Podcast. While you're listening, are there any moments you found fascinating, inspiring, instructive, maybe even heartwarming? Can you think of anyone, a friend or a family member who would appreciate this moment? 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