The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Listener Favorites: Amy Edmondson | The Science of Failing Well

Dive into an inspiring conversation with Amy Edmondson, renowned author and Harvard professor, on this episode. Amy shares her expert insights on psychological safety, the dynamics of failure, and the essence of creative resilience. Explore how understanding failure in different contexts can empower us to embrace risks and innovate fearlessly. This episode is a must-listen for creatives, entrepreneurs, and anyone eager to transform their approach to challenges and failures into opportunities for growth and innovation.

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Duration:: 1h 11m
Broadcast on:: 21 Jun 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

As you've probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our Life of Purpose series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free Life of Purpose e-book. What you have to do is go to UnmistakeableCreative.com/LifePurpose again. I think it's partly because we don't appreciate how much real value there is to be found in preventing basic failure. We think of them as idiosyncratic and unimportant and maybe even small, but one of the basic failures that I describe in the book is Air Florida Flight 90, which thankfully was 40 years ago, but it involves a flight where the co-pilot went through the takeoff checklist as one is required to do, but essentially in their sleep as a road exercise rather than a mindful exercise. And despite it being an icy cold January day in Washington, D.C., when the first officer said "anti-ice," the captain said "off," and they just went on from their APU running start-lumbers idle, right off they went. The proper answer to anti-ice was on, and it should have been turned on, but the failure to turn that on, that one error, that one mindless error led to the loss of 78 lives a few minutes later. I'm Sreeny Rao, and this is the Unmistakeable Creative Podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who've started movements, built driving businesses, written best-selling books, and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500-episode archive at UnmistakeableCreative.com. Amy, welcome to The Unmistakeable Creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Oh, it's an honor to be here. Well, it is my pleasure to have you here, so as I was saying before we hit record, I think that your work has been cited in more of the books I've read and more of the work of our own guests than anybody I have ever known, and I thought, "How do I introduce you?" I was like, "You kind of are like the godmother of psychological safety is how I would describe it at this point." So you have a new book out called The Right Kind of Wrong, all of which we will get into, but given your background and the nature of your work, I wanted to start with what is one of my favorite questions that is what social group are you a part of in high school, and what impact would that end up having on where you ended up and what you ended up doing with both your life and your career? Wow. So my social group, you mean-- John's nurse, cheerleaders, whatever, yeah, I mean, whatever it was. Right, right. Gosh, I mean, I guess I have to say math geeks. If I'm to be honest, I was a good student, I was someone who liked, or I don't know if I liked it, but I was hell-bent on proving my worth. I guess. And so I was quite popular for people needing help with problem sets. Yeah. So, I mean, what impact did that have on sort of what you ended up doing in the future? Because I know that you have an engineering background before the work that you do now. That's right. So, I mean, it sent me first into the realm of wanting to go to a good college, wanting to kind of, in a sense, prove that I was good enough and smart enough. I have a very brilliant older brother, and he was at MIT and studying engineering, so I thought I would do that too, not MIT, but Harvard and study engineering. And so it sent me down a path of being good at school, and part of being good at school certainly in high school is being good at math and science. But it took me a while, so maybe it slowed me down, because it took me a while to figure out what I was really passionate about, good at, interested in, and more suited to make a real contribution to. Yeah. Well, it's funny because I've talked to friends about high school math, and I was a good student, but I think one of the things that's so striking about the way that we teach math, and I've talked to friends who are applied math majors, they're like, the way math that's taught in high school makes absolutely no sense. You don't actually learn math, because you don't learn why something is the way it is. You just don't know how to do it. I've got A's and AP calculus. I can barely add. I'm an Indian who's horrible at math, which is like a big disgrace to Paul Indians, but this is something that I'm always curious about with educators. One of the things that you talk a lot about in this book, I mean, you teach it arguably the most elite institution in the world. You're an alumni of that institution. And so every time I talk to an educator, the question I always come back to is if you're tasked with redesigning the education system from the ground up, let's say that you were basically brought into the next presidential administration as the head of education policy. Based on the principles in your book, what would you change given that we had just had this huge college admissions scandal and largely the schools involved were schools like the ones you teach at? And I know because I'm an alumni of school like that, I'm a Berkeley alum. So I know what kind of a pressure cooker that is. And the idea of being wrong in those environments is terrifying. Like we honestly are never taught anything. I mean, you know, when we were growing up as kids, like my dad would be like, you get bring home an A minus. He's like, why didn't you get an A plus? Because I got something wrong. Oh, you know, my dad did the same thing. And, but it turned out he was joking, but kids don't have a great sense of humor. And we thought, let me find things like that. So, you know, it turns out, I mean, what happened was I'd get a 99, he'd say, why didn't you get 100? But it was, it was literally meant to be a joke, and I guess tell that to the amygdala, right? Yeah, exactly. So it's a wonderful question and it's a wonderful topic, which is, you know, what should schools do differently to truly encourage and build learners, you know, rather than, than performers and know-it-allers, and I think there's an awful lot. And I do believe the right kind of wrong, this new book is quite aimed at that topic. And so perhaps the first thing I'll say is they schools should do a better job of including failure opportunities in a, in a, in a, in the discovery sense, especially. And if you think about it, you know, certainly in high school, and oftentimes this is true in college too, that the main place that people experience failure is if they're on a, a formal sports team of some kind. And that turns out to be a really important builder of, of resilience and, and even mental health, because, you know, good, good athletes who are part of a real team necessarily experience a healthy rate of failures, you just simply can't win every game. You can't conquer every contest and, and understand that's just part of it, right? That's part of, of excellence in any endeavor that you take seriously is that failure comes along, but I don't think we've done a great job of teaching that in the academic setting. I'm a big fan and try to use often simulations where, where people are put in teams or put in exercises where by definition, some teams will do better than others. Some teams will fail, some teams will succeed. And for all teams, even the most successful ones, there will be failures along the way because it's the nature of the task and, and they're designed to occur so that you can learn from them. Yeah. Well, I guess my sort of response to this is tell that to the kid in high school who's trying to get into Harvard. Because I just finished reading Adam Grant's new book, Hidden Potential, where he talks about our selection systems and how they're biased towards looking at, you know, our past performance. For example, if I'm planning to Harvard and you tell me, yeah, go ahead and fail, like having an F on a transcript is probably not going to improve my chances. So how do you integrate the opportunities with failure when you have a selection system that is basically designed to root it out almost? Well, I guess, I guess it depends on whether you're asking this from a policy perspective or a, you know, parent of an individual child perspective. Let's go with a parent of the individual child. There's a lot of parents who listen to the show. All right. So then we have to say, all right, we'll, we're, we're living here in the real world. So we, we, we can't give you advice that will, will backfire, right? We'll in fact, harm your chances, although ironically, one of the best ways to get into elite colleges is to be on an elite sports team in, in, you know, in high school. It turns out, and I'm sure you know this, that, that many of these young kids in, in their, whether they're playing soccer or, or, or, um, rowing or lacrosse or you name it are being actively recruited and I often have an assurance that they will be accepted, you know, with even just a, you know, reasonably good grade point average, um, as, as early as late in their 10th grade or sophomore year. So I mean, that's, that's not my expertise. That's another topic. But, um, and I'm not, not a fan of those sort of backdoor policies, um, but they do exist and since I am a fan of ensuring that your kids get a healthy, um, sort of dose of resilience and failure, maybe those two things go together. But more seriously, I'm not talking about coming, you know, but ensuring that you have an F on your transfer, it's, it's more about, um, ensuring that you are pursuing the stretch opportunities through which you'll really learn and grow. And if you're doing that, there will be setbacks and, and failures along the way, again, failure maybe with a small F, not a capital F. And, and most colleges can, can suss out the difference between having taken all easy courses and taking some harder ones. And, and, you know, essays can be, can be written about, about, and many essays are written about challenges, um, and, you know, really challenging things that were overcome. And, you know, one of the reasons that's a popular sort of essay genre is because colleges do want to know about resilience, right? They, they want to know about curiosity and drive, like you're not just doing this to impress, you know, to prove yourself, to impress the adults in your life, you're, you're doing it out of a real thirst for, uh, for learning and, and ultimately for making a contribution to, to the world. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that one of the things that's so challenging is in the system that we have, it's so hard to think about that because I, like, I can tell you, like, when I saw that admissions documentary, I thought to myself, man, I did not have this reaction when I got rejected or accepted to any school. Like I remember when the Berkeley envelope came, I was like, okay, I got it. And I never saw anybody like, and I've seen, I mean, I'm sure you've seen it, like the reactions that these kids have on video, it's like, oh my God, this is the end of the world. Uh, so, I mean, I knew you read about resilience and we'll go much deeper into this, but what are the questions I have just right up the bat is there's certain people who, to your point, as you mentioned about the essays, will actually take a failure and make something of it and respond to it in a really positive way, but there are others who, who don't necessarily, what is the difference? What role does upbringing, genetics, environment, all that play in the resilience that people have inherently? And then, of course, how do they build it? Oh, you know, it's such a, I think it is a, a multifaceted, a phenomenon, right? To have resilience, some of it's going to come from your family, some from the good luck of great teachers, some from your peers. I do think many, it's easy to underestimate the role of good friendships and robust learning messages that you can receive from people who care about you and, and encourage you, right? And, and help you think through the disappointments that are inevitable in your life, especially in adolescence. Mm-hmm. Selling a little? Or a lot? Shopify helps you do your thing, however you chit-ching. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. 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NUUM user compensated to provide their story. In four weeks, the typical NUUM user can expect to lose one to two pounds per week. Individual results may vary. Well, let's get into the book and a couple of things come to mind. The first is you have an engineering background, so I kind of wonder how that background has applied in your role, but as a social scientist and educator because they're so two different ways of looking at things. But I imagine the system's thinking mindset from engineering probably plays a huge role in how you actually organize ideas and how you come up with these concepts. Because like I said, in my mind, you're the godmother of psychological safety. Like I think your name is literally synonymous with those two words. Well, I don't know if that's good or bad, but it does make me want to make sure that we're on the same page on what it means. I define psychological safety as an environment in which you believe you can speak up honestly with questions, concerns, mistakes, descending perspectives, and that you believe that's welcome and appropriate, not that it's easy and effortless and comfortable, but that you understand that's what we do around here because of what's at stake. And so I studied it, as you know, for a very long time, and I have observed it to be an emergent property of a group, something that groups develop healthy teams, healthy work groups, develop a sense of willingness to take interpersonal risks, willingness to be candid with each other, even though it's not easy because they care about the work or they care about the patients they're taking care of or they care about the wonderful new product that they're innovating together or whatever it is that they're doing, that that purpose and that goal takes precedence over interpersonal comfort or wanting to look good. So it's funny because I spoke to someone recently from Denmark who said, you know, I read the book, I loved the book, and there's nothing in it that isn't obvious. And I said, completely agree. I said, I completely agree in a way, I almost take that as a compliment because what that means is, by the time you finish reading it, you're convinced that I'm right, right? And just because something is kind of obvious in retrospect does not mean that people are living their lives in the way that they need to or could to be more effective, more joyful, you know, more adventurous, if they took these concepts to heart. So I, but the reason I thought of that story is that I do believe my engineering background gives me a strong bias toward wanting to make things work. I really want things to work as they should. And I observe organizations and teams and, you know, social systems of all kinds. And I look at all the factors in place that get in the way of things working as they should. You know, people aren't speaking up when they aren't quite sure about something that gets in the way of safe, high quality patient care, for example. I, you know, I observe people, you know, more kind of whether they will acknowledge it to themselves or not, more interested in looking good than being good. And, and that's not a judgment. That's just an observation that our society, our education, our upbringings can lead us towards some very irrational behaviors that ultimately just don't work out all that well. Yeah. Well, one question before we get into the details of the book itself, like, so I have a one-year-old nephew and observing how he learns and goes to the world is not only fascinating, but beyond inspiring, because he doesn't have any, there's no sort of fear or failure inside of him. You know, he's like the social butterfly. He says hi to everybody, apparently my sister can't take him shopping without him literally saying hello to every single person. And he literally just started learning to talk in his vocabulary. I think in the last like month is up to a hundred words and we're just like, okay, this is terrifying. He's going to be smarter than all of us. And we all kind of know it. We're like joking. He probably already thinks that. What happens? Like what happens to that sort of insatiable curiosity because he'll go do anything. Like he'll, you know, if we baby prove something, he'll go undo it. I mean, even if it hurts him, you know, something goes on his head and he'll, yeah, he'll, oh, he's, he watched me unlatch a baby gate while I was holding him and he watched me like a hawk. And then when I put him down, like 10 minutes later, he crawled over there, he's not tall enough to reach it yet. And then he started fiddling with the switch and I was like, oh my God. Incredible. Yeah. So as adults, we don't like an adult, let's use the baby gate as a metaphor. If they couldn't open on the first time, they'd be like, all right, I suck at this. And that's exactly. And that sticks mindset, right? Yeah. I am born without the gene for opening the baby gate, none of us. Right. So, so that's, that's one of those, you know, beliefs that we start to internalize unconsciously, you know, that we have fixed intelligence, you know, even the idea that this baby who sounds amazing must be a genius, right? Every baby's a genius in, in some way, right? We're born with this remarkable capacity for curiosity, for, for, for learning and growing and just we're, we're sponges for knowledge or our skills are getting better and better and better. And then sometime in elementary school, relatively early in elementary school, we start internalizing because we're very smart, the, the socially sent messages that we're supposed to get the right answer, right, not, you know, not, not, you know, try stuff like if they, you don't get a round of applause for getting things wrong. And, and, and so they start to over learn what Carol Dweck would call the fixed mindset, right? You know, you're, we start to kids even, they know how to do this. They start sorting the kids into smart and not so smart. And, and then they don't want to be found out as not so smart. So they both consciously and not start to, you know, hedge their bets and not, you know, not do the things for which they might be found out as not smart. Now some kids just never lose it, right? They just, they're, they're perpetually, they stay on that curiosity track and they, they are just more motivated to, to try things and see what happens then to look good and hedge their bets. Yeah. Well, it's funny because I, in my notes, I tagged one of my other blog posts. I wrote this blog post called how to search for right answers as destroyed higher education, which is, you know, a bit, you know, yeah, yeah, provocative on purpose. Yeah. But I had a quote from Navall Robicon thing here. He said, one of the problems is that schools and our educational system and even our way of raising children replaces curiosity with compliance, and once you replace curiosity with compliance, you get an obedient factory worker, but you no longer get a creative thinker and you need creativity. You need the ability to feed your brain to learn whatever you want. And I followed that up by saying, right answers lead to good grades and open the door to elite universities, but they close the door to discovery, exploration and growth, reverse this pattern, we could stop conditioning students to believe their grades reflect their potential. And even said Goden in the aggressive session said the right answer is the enemy of art. And so I think that makes a perfect segue into talking about sort of the structure that you define for failure, because I think that you really kind of like teased it apart and really dissected it by giving us a real like deep dive into the elements of failure. So let's start by talking about the sort of core definitions that you opened the book, which with our failures, errors and violations, because I think it's important that people understand that before we get into the rest. Sure. Absolutely. Same failure, this is very colloquial. But as an outcome that deviates from desired results, it's like an undesired result. It's bad not the good result. And I define error, which is synonymous with mistakes, as an unintended deviation from pre-specified standards, procedures, rules, recipes, et cetera. By definition, you don't do that on purpose. If you do it on purpose, then it's a violation or sabotage, but mistakes are not on purpose. Whereas some undesired results, some failures are indeed the result of mistakes, but other failures are the result of incorrect hypotheses. Yeah, I mean, it kind of made me think about sort of, you know, would we deliberately violate something? Because I thought about it. It's like, well, okay, somebody might say, okay, I'm going to deliberately violate this sort of tried-and-for rule and come up with something better as a result. Absolutely. Because I remember... That's an experiment. Yeah, it's my time. I tagged a note and said it'll deliver it, you know, violations. Yeah. But that's my, yeah. So look, let's talk about generating an intelligent hypothesis so that we can kind of segue into the concept of intelligent failure. Sure. To generate an intelligent hypothesis, whether in a formal sense as a scientist in a laboratory or in an informal sense as a, you know, high school kid, you know, wondering whether they could try out for that team, you do your homework first. You just find out of it and as best you can, what's already known, and then you're stuck with what isn't yet known, but you'd like to know. And so you're designing a test or an experiment to help resolve some of that uncertainty, to help you learn something you don't yet know, you know, in, at least for you, new terrain. Mm-hmm. Okay. Great. So- This should also be in pursuit of a goal, you know, and again, this is going to be part of my definition of intelligent failure, right? You don't, this is, I think it's, you know, your well-designed experiments are those that are hoping to take you a step closer to some goal and they are thoughtful in that you've done some of the, some of the background thinking or, or researching that you need to do to figure out what's worth testing. Yeah. So, I mean, these are what you call the fourth year attributes of intelligent failure. And I thought a perfect way to actually demonstrate this with a story was the Amy Webb online dating experiment, which I told you, I saw that and I was like, I literally copied that section, put it into my note, taking up and typed into the AI was like reverse engineer this for me. So I can use. But I thought it was such a great example of what you're talking about here. And absolutely. I mean, so Amy Webb, who's a, you know, an amazing thinker and, and I guess she's called a quantitative futurist. So she's a person who is really into, into big data and, and, and using it to solve problems and, and, and predict the future. So she, she decided that she would join the world of online dating apps and, and, and, you know, try to, she was looking, she was really truly hoping to meet someone to spend her life with. And she, she, one of the dates she actually got from this app was, was with a guy who at the restaurant, they went out for dinner, ordered, you know, tons of things from the, from the menu, you know, to eat and even several bottles of wine, expensive wine. And it wasn't actually terribly interesting. So this is a failure. Right. It wasn't really fun to talk to. And at some point the bill arrived, he, he excused himself to go to the, the restroom and never came back. But so not only was this a sort of wasted evening, which is pretty painful in its own right, but she ended up with a bill that was roughly a half, a month's rent at the time. So that's the, that's the set up now she wanted to learn, of course. And so she was curious, but how was it that the dating algorithm had sort of sent her this guy? Like, why, why, what had she done wrong that led to this being a supposed match? And so she decided to set up a kind of experiment. Maybe, maybe we'll end an intelligent failure here. By, by she created fictitious, she, she's energetic, she created 10 fictitious profiles for men that were sort of just contained qualities she really was hoping to find in, in a date and life partner. And, and then, and then she waited to see what kind of women these fake profiles would attract. Now, she didn't, you know, she didn't, she didn't wanted to see any more than she had to. So she didn't sort of, you know, lead any of these women on to, to, to think they really existed. But, but she analyzed the profiles of the ones who were connecting with these guys and, and realized that she, of course, had many of the attributes they had. She just hadn't thought about it that way. She was kind of, you know, a geek, if you will. And so she, she realized she had to put in, because as a result of this experiment, she realized that she had to put into her profile more than just her resume and her successes in her field. But, but include words like she's fun and adventurous, but she is. And maybe a better, you know, made, made a better photograph, put a better photograph up. You know, she'd been very sort of, you know, quick and I guess sufficient the first time around. And then she, she also learned that it was sensible to wait almost a day before answering a message and so on. And, you know, she hasn't cracked the code. She did meet, she put a new profile up for herself, a more successful profile in terms of being able to track the kinds of people she was looking for. And then she did, in fact, meet a man. She married and still married too. And they have a daughter and so on and so forth. So she, I think the most important thing about this story is that this, you know, this, a failure like that might have sent mere mortals, you know, away from such an app ever, you know, forever. That's that. Don't like it. Didn't work. Terrible ways. I mean, a month's rent would definitely piss. Yeah. Now it would piss me off a lot. Right. Yeah. I mean, anger would be just, but I guess you could also use some of that anger as the driving force to kind of crack the code. Yeah. Well, I mean, I love that because it was such a great story and a such a great example of like taking a very data driven approach to something that doesn't work. And I think that most of us, I think, try to get this sort of, you know, while we sort of feel good approach to like dealing with this, it's like, you know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps, whatever, right, feed ourselves with attitudes. But this was such a, such a different way of thinking about failure. Yes. And it's not, you know, that's, I think you're right that we often get this message, you know, failure. Yes, let's be resilient. Try try again, but not. Okay. Unpack it. What happened? What are the key insights? Where are the shortcomings? You know, what, what are the actual contributors to the outcome rather than just the sort of quick and dirty? Oh, I didn't try hard enough. But what nonsense it wasn't that you didn't try hard enough. It's that you didn't have the right, you know, the right hypothesis, I guess. Well, let's shift and get into the next concept, which is basic failures, because you say, unlike intelligent failures, which occur in unknown territory, basic failures involve errors in well-tried and trained basic failures are not the right kind of wrong in the continuum of failure types of furthest from intelligent failures. Basic failures are an unproductive wasting time, energy and resources, and they're largely preventable. And I loved, you know, some of the things you talked about her because they were all just small, stupid things that all of us do all the time. Like I literally have had days when I'm like, I can't find my keys. And the dumb thing is I have like a little tracker on there. I just hadn't activated it. And the funny thing is that I still haven't activated it, even though I have an app for it and everything. It's been a while. It was like about a month ago, and I like even wrote a note to do it. I still haven't done it. But in my mind, that's like a kind of an example, but talk to us about basic failures because they seem like they happen in everyday life. So basic failures are failures caused by a single cause, usually a mistake. You know, you can't find your keys. You put them down somewhere. You can't find them. You make a mistake in the recipe and you get a bad dish. And they are preventable. I mean, it's obvious that they're preventable because they're in familiar territory. And when we are at our best, we have prevented them. So I have a slide in a new talk I'm giving about this that I can't help but call it the boring slide because it is so boring. And it's, you know, the basic things that prevent basic failure are things like training, you know, checklists, speaking up when you're not quite sure. I mean, blocking and tackling. That everybody in a way, you know, brush your teeth, right? Everybody knows this. And of course, there's a deeper level of why don't we do it? And I think it's partly because we don't appreciate how much real value there is to be found in preventing basic failure. You know, we think of them as idiosyncratic and unimportant and maybe even small. But one of the basic failures that I described in the book is Air Florida Flight 90, which thankfully was 40 years ago, but it involves a flight where the pilot and the co-pilot went through the take off checklist as one is required to do, but essentially in their sleep as a road exercise rather than a mindful exercise. And despite it being an icy cold January day in Washington, DC, when the first officer said anti ice, the captain said off, and they just went on from their APU running start levers idle, right off they went, the proper answer to anti ice was on. And it should have been turned on, but the failure to turn that on that one error, that one mindless error led to the loss of 78 lives a few minutes later. Right. And that's so that is a basic failure. And it maybe I bring it up because it demonstrates how, you know, the the mindful inclusion of practices like checklist and the codification of best practices that checklists represent. And you know, the training and of course, the the willingness to to converse thoughtfully in the process of even doing very familiar work is a source of enormous value. It's it's it's really important to put these best practices in place in your life, in your companies. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I thought up when I read that. I thought of the check engine light on my car. And I thought to myself, I'm like, right, this is like the check engine light is basically what you call a potentially ambiguous threat, which I know you go into later. But I remember every time I've ignored that, the lesson I learned is like this, the longer you wait to get that thing checked, the more expensive the repair gets to every time. Like there's never been without question. I learned that the hard way. And I was like, okay, that is it yet. I'm never doing that again. Right. This is the topic of preventative maintenance or, you know, as you say, you know, just there's a little signal there that maybe it's now maybe we've worked slightly beyond preventative and it's time to, you know, truly get this thing checked out. I mean, it might be a nothing. It might be that programming that the car company now put in to sort of make sure you come back, but it might actually be a something. And we just don't think preventative maintenance or maintenance period is like worthy of our cognitive effort. Right. It's not worthy of our attention. But in fact, I would argue there's enormous value there. But I hear you're shopping for a car because I've been at it for ages. Such a time suck, right? Not really. I bought it on Carvana. Super convenient. Oh, then comes all the financing research. Am I right? Well, you can. But I got pre-qualified for a Carvana auto loan in like two minutes. Yeah, but then all the number crunching in terms, right? Nope. 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That's a huge saving and a small price to pay for peace of mind. So don't wait, take control of your personal data within Cogni today. Let's reclaim our peace and put an end to those spam text messages and other data privacy issues once and for all. Well, let's talk about assumptions on cognitive biases because I think this is really important when it comes to both a combination of taking prescriptive advice from people. And we'll talk about that a bit more when we get to context. But you say that assumptions are taken for granted beliefs that feel like facts because we aren't consciously aware of them. We don't hold them up for scrutiny. Many are harmless. We can safely assume our cars park where we left at the night before we stopped to challenge every assumption we'd make. We'd never get out of the door in the morning. But then you go on to say when presented with the choice between admitting mistakes or protecting our self-image, the decision is easy. We want to believe that we're not at fault. So we find every reason to justify what we did as correct, which basically you say is the fundamental attribution error, which exacerbates the problem. So you've got these two conflicting things going on, right? We know that we're making these assumptions that we take for granted because it's funny. I joked about this. I said I've been working on a book about cognitive biases titled everybody's full of shit including me because in different contexts, that's actually true. The same advice that is life-changing in one context could be absolutely destructive in another. You know, we have to... I mean, I don't think there's so much contradictory as two powerful forces that lead us to not behave as rationally as we might otherwise behave, right? So one of them is that very strong desire to look good to others and to ourselves. So we just almost instantly push the blame somewhere else, right? It wasn't me. I didn't contribute to that outcome. And in a way, it's an error. Well, it's technically an error, but it's also emotionally an error because in fact, think about the power and self-confidence entailed in going, "Oh, I did that," right? "I contributed to that failure, to that outcome." There are things that I did or didn't do that allowed that to unfold as it did. That's actually quite empowering because you're recognizing that you now have an opportunity to go forward in a different... take a different path, right? And so if you're both strong enough and smart enough to recognize it, but you're also kind of courageous and confident enough to say, "Yeah, that's okay," right? But I'm a fallible human being. I can make an error and go forward. I don't need to distance myself from it, pretend it didn't happen, et cetera. Clearly from a place of greater wisdom. So once we appreciate that, once we appreciate the greater wisdom involved in fully taking accountability, taking into account how we contributed, even if it's just a small way, is quite empowering, quite self-empowering. So that's kind of the part where we've got to override our self-protection instinct to have more of your nephew's instincts of like, "What's next?" "Okay, I fell down. I picked myself right back up. I'm eager to go forward, not backward." And the part about assumption-making is harder because by definition, when we're making assumptions, we're aware of making them. And for that, I think of two things. One is just that the occasional or maybe periodic pause, the pause to become more mindful, "Wait a minute. Where am I missing?" I'm sort of assuming as if, now, I wonder if that is, what would happen if that weren't the case? And the other part of that is to say, "Well, I wonder what other people might think. Maybe I'll ask my spouse. Maybe I'll ask my good friend or my colleague. How do you see this?" So I think assumption breaking out of our assumptions is a team sport. Let's get into complex failures because I think the most obvious one that we've seen and that I think anybody can relate to is all the things we saw during COVID. Now you use those as really. Those are just easy examples, I think, for people to understand what this is. But you basically say that the complex failures have more than one cause, none of which created the failure on its own, usually a mix of internal factors such as procedures and skills, collides with external factors, such as weather or suppliers, delivery delay. Sometimes the multiple factors interact to exacerbate one another. Sometimes they simply compound as with the straw that broke the camel's back. Talk to us about that and one, how they occur, and basically, I think that'll make a nice segue into doling the systems to avoid them. Yes. They occur and, again, they come in small and large sizes, consequential or less consequential failures. What makes them challenging is that they have so many causes and any one of them on its own wouldn't lead to the failure. So we're tempted to not care very much or not notice the small deviations that are going to add up and produce this bad outcome. That's the downside. The upside is there are many, many handholds. If you're doing rock climbing, you're looking for viable handholds. Complex failures give us many small opportunities to wake up and notice that something's a miss that might matter. That little light on your car, let's say you just decide, "Okay, I'm going to interrogate that and I'm going to take that one seriously for a change and see what I can learn and just decide to engage more wholeheartedly with those small signals." Basically, you have what you call the three practices for getting good at the science of failing, which are contextual awareness, self-awareness, and systems awareness. Let's start with context, which is probably the topic I can't stop beating like a dead horse, because where I see context go awry is with prescriptive advice. I feel like self-help books are completely context-blind. The people who read them are even more context-blind. Why are we context-blind? People will come to me and ask me for advice on podcasting. I have no idea how to grow this thing because I started 13 years ago and I was the beneficiary of good timing. I can't replicate that for you. The funny thing is that we use outliers as role models and we think we're going to replicate the results without taking into account the most obvious variable of all, the person that you're staring at in the mirror, which right there is part of the context, but genetics, timing, environment. These are contextual variables that distort the effectiveness. Yet, we're largely context-blind, I think, when we go looking for advice. Talking about how we actually freeze our contextual awareness or do I have to write a book called "Everybody is Full of Shit Including Me?" I'm not a fan of books that can't be mentioned on morning television with their title. Everyone is full of stuff. I'm glad you want to start there because to me, context is the most important concept in the book. One of the reasons I wrote this book is that our failure conversation has been context-blind forever. You're either in the camp that says fail-fast, break things, etc., or you're in the camp that says, "No, failure's not an option. Not here in the real world where I work." Both are right and both are incomplete. It depends. If you are in a context where very little is known, there's a viable goal that you're pursuing. You had no choice but to fail and fail well. To have thoughtful tests, hopefully small enough that no, nothing really horrible goes wrong and no one gets hurt so that you can learn more and progress toward your goal. Your early, your podcast 13 years ago was not your podcast today. It was an experiment. You got better and better. It got better and better and so on. The two simplest and most essential bits of context that I like to look at are on what are the stakes and first and foremost in human safety. If you're in passenger airplane, as a pilot, you are mindful, alert, awake, using your checklist. You're treating that context with the seriousness that it deserves. If you're in a laboratory, it should be having fun experimenting. The stakes are high or low in human safety, economic and reputational domains. What's the level of uncertainty? Is it high or low? If it's the uncertainty is very, very high and we have no choice but to experiment to learn more. If the uncertainty is very, very low, let's use that practice and let's use it mindfully, particularly when the stakes are high. This is, I think, so many failures, so many of the failures I've studied would have been avoided by a deep and thoughtful awareness of what kind of context is this. It's funny and maybe you did have an illustration in the book for this because I know you had a bunch of them, but as you're saying that, I'm imagining a four quadrant model first. I did all this funny. It is four quadrants, but it's got six potential quadrants because I have basically very consistent context like manufacturing. Then I have well understood context like patient care or surgery that still have a lot of variability or pass in your air travel, so I call that variable context. Then I have laboratories or a dating that's a novel context and then that's three categories and then there's high and low stakes. That potentially gives rise to six cells, but there's really only four meaningful ones because the upper right two, the variable and novel context where the stakes are high are both areas for just very, very cautious mindful experimentation and execution. The lower right is also unique in a sense. We really don't have a clue what's going to work. The stakes are super low. Let's just go to town having fun experimenting. It ends up being a two by two, but a slightly off-kilter one. The thing I wondered about is where creative work falls into these different contexts. Thinking about this, let's take publishing as an example since we're talking about a book. I bet people come to me and say, "I want you to coach me to write a million, sell a million copies." I'm like, "Well, I have no idea to do that. I've never done that." It reminds me of a concept of naive realism that you write about later in the book, and you say a lack of situation awareness can spawn a variety of preventable failures usually due to a cognitive bias called naive realism. In my mind, the person who literally has no audience, no online presence is like, "I want you to help me write a book and sell another copies." I'm like, "I don't even know how to do that. That's naive realism." Nobody does. I would say that writing a book is in the domain of very high uncertainty. It's totally novel. If you want to write a book at time zero, that book does not yet exist. There are no words on a page. Maybe a proposal, but that's your first step as write a proposal. It's enormously uncertain how those sentences are going to string together and whether they'll be any good and so on. You have no choice, but stakes, at least at times zero are pretty low. You're not yet going to fall flat on your face and fail wildly and visibly in front of all the world because you haven't even begun. So, treat it that way. I think a lot of times people who want to write something, maybe not a book, maybe even an article, they tie themselves up and not because they're so anxious about failing, right? About it not working, about it not being good. No writing is good at the beginning, right? Do you learn to write so well? It's like, well, I just write badly and then I clean it up and clean it up and clean it up. Like I said, I'm actually not. I don't know if anyone's a good person. Some people are probably very good writers. I'm not a good writer, but I am a heck of an editor. Like when I write bad, I can then look at it and go, that's bad. I'm going to make it better. And most days I sit down and look at yesterday's writing, it's horrible. I'm just laughing. After I've sort of rolled up my sleeves and spent a little more time with it, I've beaten it into somewhat of a submission. So, I think writing a book or writing anything is novel. Creative, as you said, is sort of novel almost by definition, not always. And initially at least low stakes. And so, you should have a read yourself up to experiment and pay close attention to what you're producing, whether it's interesting show it to some friends or colleagues to get feedback as you must in order to really make it better. Yeah, it's funny for you to mention editing because James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, he told me the exact same thing. And that book has sold millions of copies. He said, I'm not a great writer. I'm a better editor than I am a writer. But it's fine. You kind of have dissected the psychology behind something I said in one of my books where I said, there's probably no greater time in the life of creative than when you don't have an audience, even though it's the new creative, because at that point, you have nothing to lose. Like, there's nobody expecting anything. Yes, that's exactly great. And yet we don't act like that. You know, we're anxious and reluctant. And it's like, no, you don't have anyone to offend yet. Well, the two most common responses I got in survey data from our readers, when I asked, what is the thing that is keeping you from doing this creative thing? Fear of public opinion and fear of creative judgment. And I'm like, by who? That's the most amazing part. And you're not going to just overnight have a million people look at it and go, it's crap, right? What's going to happen is no one will even get to see it unless it's good enough to get to see it, because you send your proposals out and they get rejected. So then, you know, that's okay. You got a rejection that's painful a little bit, but it's not a reputational blow, because nobody else saw it. Well, let's finish this up by talking about both system and self awareness, because I think that, like, as a content creator, who basically has all these different automations running, like, I finally understand systems and I never really thought they were, I'll give you a ridiculous example. I had bad grades in college. So, you know, at Berkeley, if you're aspiring to Connor, business major, and you're grid suck, you go to environmental econ. And I remember sitting in a class my senior year, and this professor was explaining how to use a utility function to maximize the amount of milk that you could get from a cap. And I thought to myself, this is the dumbest thing I've ever done in college. I'm never going to use this. Fast forward to now, 25 plus years later, I have a course called maximize your output, and the entire course is based on a premise of maximizing the content you can create using your existing knowledge. And I thought to myself, wait a minute, that's the exact same thing in a different context. And I realized I was like, oh, so it was useless in one context, but useful in another. Yeah. And to me, that's system at work in a lot of ways. True. So that's what we, you know, our natural way of thinking and then made worse in the school system is to go narrow, go small, look at parts, you know, to become the expert in some element, some parts rather than to sort of step back and develop an appreciation for how the parts stick together. And yet the behavior of most companies, technologies, every kind of system you can imagine is determined more by the relationships among the parts and by the parts themselves. And so it's really developing this appreciation for the ways in which things work together and how that affects outcomes, particularly the outcomes you're trying to achieve. Yeah. Well, can you, like, so I gave you the example of, you know, using knowledge to create content. But do you have any others specifically with systems? I mean, like in our day to day lives, for example, I think we can build, because we're made set to talks about this, even in his finance work, he talks about like systems being ways to completely automate behavior that you want to have happen. Yeah, it's, it's, um, which I don't even know, it's funny. I mean, this is the, this, this one is the hardest one because it's, um, there's so much depth, I mean, to systems thinking, and I'm not doing it justice in, in one chapter in the book, but the cognitive habit of pausing to think, who or what else will be affected by this decision or this action? And what are some of the downstream consequences of, of doing this now on other things that we care about? And, and just, that simple shift, really, it's a shift from me now, which is my instinct, what do I want and I want it now to us later, right? In the future, like, and part, uh, part of, um, you know, wisdom and part of, of, of just becoming, you know, growing up and trying to make a difference in some realm is to, it's, delay gratification is too simple, but to think more fully about the various effects of, of small actions that might even be thought of as shortcuts in, in the near term. I know this is too abstract. Um, you know, when, when the one of the, one of the studies that really brought this home for me was a, with, with a native tucker, um, at BU where we were studying nurses and the, in their day to day life, they just, they counter on average, like a problem every hour or so, you know, something that is not functioning the way it should that needs to be fixed immediately so that they can continue their, you know, their patient care work. And what we found was only about 8% of the problems that we studied in very detailed ways led nurses to either report them or, uh, either take action or ask someone else to take action to kind of prevent its recurrence. And, and, and, and part of that, and then it meant that they were sort of doomed to continue to face this small tide of, you know, little problems where things just weren't working as they should. And it's in part because people just have a hard time seeing that this, what your grandmother called a stitch in time saves nine, that, you know, if you, you do some little extra work right now, it'll really make your life better later and, and tomorrow. And by the way, make other people's lives better too. But we're so in the here and, and, and yet we can of course learn to be in the us and later. Yeah. I mean, I think that if anybody explained this concept so simply that it finally clicked for me was Ray Dalio in Prince Wolf's where he talks about first, second and third order consequences. Yeah. And you're like, you're right, like that one decision. And most of us don't like, you know, I know I've written about it in a blog post. It's like, okay, like, let's say you want to move to some other country. You think, all right, I'm going to get to go live in this foreign country. That's the first order consequence of you move. But what if you grow apart from your family, like people don't account for those things. I realized like you're really bad because of temporal discounting, right? Right. Right. And yet we can, and you know, we can become aware of temporal discounting and we can, you know, form a little kind of quick brainstorm to just think those things through. And it doesn't take, you know, a PhD to come up with like five or six second and third order consequences. And then we can look at them thoughtfully and decide whether we're as happy as we were a few minutes ago to do this thing. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. I, you know, it's funny because you are really mentioned that somebody said everything in this book was so obvious. And despite it, despite it being obvious, I think that is, you know, you really dissected something that so many of us are, you know, so uncomfortable with, and have it for a long time. So I want to finish like, you know, maybe one other area. I think that, you know, feeling like an imposter is something that is deeply tied to this. Because I'll tell you, when I got into Berkeley, I still did that. I remember to this day, I was like, this was a mistake. Like there had to have been a screw up. And then I remember at the end of Adam Grant's book, he writes a story about how he thought he he said there's like 50% of students at Harvard who actually think they deserve to be there. And he said another 50% think some mistake was made. And I followed the second category for sure, because I remember I had, you know, like an admissions officer come to my school and I was in all state band. And I was like, she was like, Oh, yeah, you know, that'll work out great. At their times, I'm like, what are the chances that she somehow remembered that at 10,000 applications? Right. There you go. Yeah, exactly. And so talking about that, like, honestly, like, I realized at a certain point that it didn't matter, like, book deal the publisher, like, raidering venture around the front, I am like, wow. And Jennifer Wallace wrote this amazing book called Never Enough, when the achievement, you know, mindset becomes toxic. And I'm like, what the hell, like, no matter what you achieve, you still feel like a failure? Right. Well, you know, I, I, I like this. I mean, I say this with a smile. It's like once I, and of course I have to keep re recognizing this, but once I recognize that I'm a fallible human being, and every other human on the planet is also a fallible human being, it takes some of the pressure off, like where each of us is a fallible human being, living and working with other fallible human beings. So get over it, right? We're, we're all both, we all have a perfect right to be here, wherever here is, whether that's the job you currently have, the college you're currently in. And look forward. Don't worry so much about how you got here, but look forward is to, what are you going to do with it? What small difference do you want to make with the opportunities that, that you have by virtue of, you know, the various experiences you've had? And that's the question and sort of live, if we can live a little more joyfully with our fallibility, that was the hope of this book. We all, we all are fallible. We can, once we're, once we're okay with that, we can, I think, more easily increase the percentage, at least, of intelligent failures that we have in our lives, and decrease, maybe wildly, the percentage of basic and complex failures that we experience in our lives, and then have lives of more joy, adventure, and even accomplishment. Beautiful. Will that be such a beautiful place to wrap up up our conversation? So I have one last question, which is how we finish all our interviews with the unmistakable. What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable? Of recognition of their purpose in life, I guess. I think once you recognize, not, not necessarily in a super formal way, but become comfortable with who you are and what you want to contribute, then I think a mistakeability follows. Beautiful. Well, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us to share your story, your wisdom, and your insights with our listeners. Where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything else you're up to? Well, I guess the book, the book is a great place to start right kind of wrong, the science of failing well. AmyCEdmondson.com is a website with somewhat, somewhat incomplete information, but I try to keep it up with my recent articles and so on. Amazing. And for everybody listening, we will wrap the show with that. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. 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