The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

The Art of Applied Visual Thinking with Sunni Brown

Sunni Brown is the leader of a global campaign for literacy called the The Doodle Revolution. In this episode, she talks to us all about the journey that led her to leading this revolution, and how we can make sense of the world by doodling.

Overcoming a challenging childhood environment
Learning to love and nurture your creative skills
A life and career made of punctuated equilibrium
The evolution of following your bliss as a career
Discovering where you thrive and where you don’t
Why we need people who don’t take risks
The benefits of collecting a paycheck we ignore
Early foundations for the info-doodle revolution
Recognizing the moment when you’re calling appears
Increasing the odds of finding your element
Learning to remember the beginner’s mind
Creating info-doodles to make sense of the world
Why your doodles don’t have to be beautiful
Insights that get revealed through the doodling process

Sunni Brown was named one of the “100 Most Creative People in Business” and one of the “10 Most Creative People on Twitter” by Fast Company. She is founder of a creative consultancy, an international speaker, the co-author of Gamestorming, and the leader of a global campaign for visual literacy called The Doodle Revolution. Her TED Talk on doodling has drawn more than a million views on TED.com. She lives in Keep Austin Weird, Texas.

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Duration:: 57m
Broadcast on:: 07 Jul 2014
Audio Format:: other

As you probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose, again, that's unmistakable I'm Srinney Rao, and this is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast, where I speak with creative entrepreneurs, artists, and other insanely interesting people to hear their stories, learn about their molding moments, tipping points, and spectacular takeoffs. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, fiscally responsible, financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states or situations. At Sprout's Farmers Market, we're all about fresh, healthy, and delicious. Step into our bulk department to discover a world of options with hundreds of scoopable bulk bins and grab-and-go favorites. From wholesome grains and spices to limited time goodies like pumpkin apple cashews and butter toffee peanuts. Plus buying in bulk means you can get as much or as little as you like for your next recipe or snack attack. Visit your neighborhood Sprout's Farmers Market today, or flavor fills every scoop. A sunny welcome to the unmistakable creative, thanks for taking the time to join us. Oh, an unmistakable thank you to you. Well, so, you know, I came across you by way of a few different things. At first I saw this TED talk that you did on doodling, and so naturally I was very curious because, I mean, you've seen all the artwork on our site, so somehow that led me to you. And I thought, okay, this would make for a fascinating interview, and conveniently you also had a book coming out called The Doodle Revolution, or The Infodoodle Revolution, and luckily I got my hands on a copy of it, and I became more and more intrigued by how you ended up making a career out of something so random. So tell us a bit about yourself, your story, your background, and how that has led you to doing the work that you're doing today. So this is the 25-minute question because, well, I'll try to keep it interesting. I don't know what the backgrounds of most of your guests are. I'm sure there's a diverse set of backgrounds, but my background began on a dirt road in East Texas and in really sub-optimal circumstances. And so the weird blessing of coming from a place that's sort of resource-deprived in a variety of ways is, of course, that you become wildly creative, and/or used to come to the deprivation and you just get married when you're 12, and it's just terrible. So the fires that forged who I am were challenging. And I think that's important to note, because I don't take complete credit for the work that I have done, because I know that it was based on a lot of conditions that I was exposed to early on, and so take a kid, like many American kids, actually, and many kids around the world, in a circumstance that's not optimal, but they're bright and they are curious and they read a maniac, and they are very capable of navigating conversations with other people. So it's sort of like a ladder out, right? So I built my own ladder from certain circumstances, but the way that I ended up in this weird space, which is about being an expert doodler or a professional doodler, was really about following my nose. Like I was very open and curious, and I always cast my net out. I tell people a lot, like if you don't know what you're good at or you don't know what you're passionate about, then keep casting your net, because eventually something will come up that makes perfect sense to you, so that's like the metaphorical abbreviated version. Well, I want to get into the much more in-depth version, obviously. Cool. A lot of things. I mean, the first question that comes from me is this whole, it's around this idea of building your own ladder out, and I've asked a lot of people this question about sort of this thing that we have in childhood, I don't know whether you call it curiosity or child-like wonder or imagination or whatever it is. And somehow I feel that by the time we've become adults, we lose that capacity to build our own ladder out of the hell we've created or the hell we're trying to escape. And I'm really curious how you get back in touch with it or what your thoughts are around that. Ooh, that's a really interesting question. There was something you said on your website actually about, it was about the box of crayons or something. It was like a quote, I can't quote you because you're here and that's just intimidating. But I wouldn't want to get your quote wrong, but it was something to the effect of, you know, my box of crayons shrunk to one, oh no, it was coloring inside the lines. You were like, first we color inside the lines, and then later we don't color it all, right? So I think that that is an interesting conundrum that is faced by adults. And I do touch on a lot of that in the book because the book is about reawakening that potential, that native, what I believe is native capacity for humans. But you know, that's a very, like I have, I don't know, about eight different tracks I could take in response to that question, that's why I'm like rambling. But I think that the, I did get trained in creative problem solving, so like when you're faced with a variety of problems, you know, you only have a few options, flee, fight, or freeze, you know, generally speaking. And so mine was fight. Mine was like, and I didn't mean fight like, you know, punch people. I meant fight like, figure it out, solve a problem, build something, you know, make a bridge, connect with other people, it was very MacGyver, very much a MacGyver response to the circumstances. So I think when you're trained early on to be like MacGyver, then you get a lot of faith and confidence in your ability to do that, which then can later translate into the adult work. But that said, if you were an adult who did cultivate MacGyver type skills, meaning creative problem solving, and you find yourself in an environment that does not nourish that part of you, then I don't think that it kills it. I think it kind of moves it into a stagnant sort of dormant space. And that can be very sad, like from my point of view, that's a very sad space. But it's also a hopeful place because it's not like, I don't think that like the, I don't think you pour acid on it and it died. I think it just needs to be loved again and like given an opportunity to flourish. But the caveat is that if you didn't ever develop those creative problem solving skills, then I think probably later in adulthood is very challenging to pick them up. Yeah, I love that. And I love that, you know, a lot of it is environmental. I mean, the one thing that I think I can look back at my career and say my talents were mismatched with my environment fairly consistently from every single job I've had, I'm just like, this makes no sense. Looking back, it's not very clear now, you know, it's much clearer now, but it wasn't obvious to me then. Wait, so you mean that your talents were like not suited to the places in which you found yourself? Oh, not at all. Okay. Any stretch of the imagination. And I think I love that you've been fired a lot, right? From pretty much every single job. Okay. So, Srini, we have that in common. All right. I've been fired like 11 times. Okay. So this is, you know, now I want to get into the, into the better part of your story itself. I mean, I want to talk about your childhood and growing up and you, you know, you mentioned this sort of MacGyver like childhood, but I want to get into a lot more depth. I mean, talk to me about, you know, what kind of a life did you have that kind of led to? Okay. I mean, you talked about being very resource deprived, but to get from there to info doodle is quite, you know, regardless of whatever your path is, the path has to be fairly interesting because I like to say that you probably took the scenic route through life to get to where you're at. So let's talk about the places that you stopped along the way. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I might refer to my life as like punctuated equilibrium's like I would like sort of meander and, you know, get fired and then be like, Oh shit, I got to do something else. You know, or I would quit. I mean, a lot of times I quit because I was like, this is deeply unsatisfying, but I certainly have, yeah, I have like meanders coupled with like totally landing in the right place, you know, but, but the reason those meanders are important right is because it's very akin to that casting your net out metaphor, which is when you meander, then you can find multiple doorways. And so that's what I would do. I would meander and then I'd be like doorway, like that one looks appealing. Go through that door meander again doorway. So it was very much when I'm now looking back when I, I studied the creative process. It actually was like I flawlessly executed on the creative process having no, having no idea that that's what it was. But yeah, I mean, I could tell you some of the stops, which involve like being a new delivering newspapers on my bicycle. And I was terrible at that because you have to wake up at three in the morning. So a lot of people didn't get their newspapers. And I worked also at a donut shop. This is in high school. I was, I started working when I was 14 years old because I was like, I need some money. Like nobody has any money around here. So I'm going to make some money. And also it just seemed like, like I wanted to get skills, you know, in apparently donut making as soon as possible. So so I worked at a donut shop and I worked at a variety of restaurants, many of which I got fired from. And I worked at like, you know, if you fast forward, I mean, I probably had 40 jobs and I'm not even in the generation of kids that, you know, like by now, if you're 25, you'll have like 19 jobs, like I was doing that prior to before it was cool. Yeah, before I got fired before it was cool. Yeah. No, but, but yeah, there were like, I'm having, I'm remembering them. Like I worked at a teachers union one time. I worked at the California state bar, evaluating the moral integrity of attorneys. No, like, I mean, there are not many things I have not tried, honestly, other than like fire dancing and, you know, stuff like that. Oh, this time. Yeah, I know. I lament that I haven't done performance art because I think that would be really fun to do. Yeah. Uh huh. But, but on one of those doorways, like, and eventually when I open door, meander, open door, meander, eventually one of those doors was not only like really good for me, it was actually sort of the door to something I could commit to for a very long time, which was awesome to find, and which happened to be doodling, but, but I have doodling applied in a variety of different kind of surprising settings. So it's not just like, oh, guess what I learned how to make scribbles. It was more about applied visual thinking and that, uh, I can get behind and really care about. So that was the door that I found. Thank God. So a couple of questions, uh, around that, I mean, I love this because it's hilarious, but there's, there's other things, you know, one of the things that always intrigues me is just how much all these experiences of our lives actually influence where we've ended up today. You know, I mean, I, I worked at McDonald's when I was in high school and you were in Brian, Texas. Well, not in Brian, Texas, actually. This was when we were, we had already moved to California, uh, but, you know, it's funny because I look back at that job and it gave me, uh, a deep appreciation for what people behind food counters do because that's a tough, that's a tough job. Like it, you, you go in there and you're impatient and you think, okay, these people are idiots. Anybody can do this job. You're right. And it's not so much the case. I mean, I found out I'm like, Hey, I'm a straight A student in high school and I suck at my job at McDonald's. How is that possible? I am not competent enough to work at Taco Bell. No, I mean, it really, it was, it was an eye open. I mean, but there was a sense of humility and an appreciation of people in service that came from that. So I guess the question for me is, you know, how have all these random jobs influenced and shaped, uh, who you are and how you see the world today? Well, I think that they, you know, to your point, I think that I do have respect and, uh, you know, like my, my stepdad worked at the same job for like 35 or 40 years and retired from that place. And you know, he was lucky enough to have it aligned with something that he cared about, which was forests and trees and so forth. But, um, most people in the generations before us that like to have the luxury of following your passion was not a particularly, uh, salient, you know, option. And so it's really fascinating to look at how we have that expectation now, especially now, like now it's like hyper, like hyper bliss following where, you know, like 10 years ago, you know, I, I was not born thinking like, okay, I think I can become anything that I wildlessly want to be was more like, okay, so I can go to college, which is, was awesome. And then probably I can work like at a company. I mean, I didn't know I was going to be an entrepreneur by any stretch of the imagination at all. And I didn't even know, and you know, I didn't know the conditions and the environment that we now live in would be so amenable to that kind of behavior. So, um, the jobs that I had basically taught me what I hated, you know, I'd be like, you know what I mean? So I was like, okay, like I cannot live inside of a cubicle, like I cannot survive there. Um, you know, parts of, could I go to work and show up and punch in the clock? Of course I can, you know, but like my, there was a part of me that would wither and die if I were to do that. And so that was helpful to know because I didn't necessarily instinctively know that, but I learned by immersing myself in environments as do most people, but, uh, so I thought it was really important for me to go through a variety of terrible jobs. They weren't terrible for everybody, but they were terrible for me, um, because that helped me understand where I thrive and where I don't thrive. Mm hmm. You know, that's useful information. Yeah. I definitely think so. It's interesting. I love that you called it sort of the hyper bliss following. And I want to talk about that in a bit more depth because, you know, I think on the one hand, it's really, really cool that I get to spend a Monday afternoon talking to somebody like you and call it a job on the other. I think it puts a lot of pressure on people who aren't necessarily in a realistic position to be able to do something like that. Absolutely. Yes. And it makes them, it makes them feel inadequate. Inadequate. That's right. And, you know, and the funny thing is I said, you know, I think for a while, you know, the, the mission and message of the things I've done perpetuated that, but there's reality, you know, I mean, I remember even in my closing talk at our event, I said, here's what you guys have to realize is that when you go back, you're going to face real life, which means, you know, bills to pay kids to feed in the houses to clean. And I'm really curious to hear, you know, as somebody who is sitting outside of that, I mean, what are your thoughts on this sense of us, you know, making people feel inadequate with this sort of hyper bliss following everybody should live the four hour work week culture that we've actually perpetuated via the Internet. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. See, that's, that's a really important question because I think what people have lost, including me at certain times in this journey is perspective, you know, it's like, it's very easy to get seduced by the, the idea of the four hour work week, which incidentally, it has nothing to do with working four hours, like, you know what I mean, it's like, what? Good marketing plan on that one. But, but I think that the, the expectation is, which it's, it's seriously, it's, it's also very a Silicon Valley and American centric. Like if you go to other countries, that, that is not the prevailing view of the day, like, oh, what, what is your, your highest artistic aspiration, like put that on the Internet and make your life come true. It's like, that is not even, I mean, it's sort of, it's a little bit Western. It's a little embarrassing when you go to other places and talk to normal people. So like, you know what I mean? So there's a perspective like, I don't know, 85% of the world is not doing that or thinking like that or feeling inadequate because they're not doing that, you know what I mean? That is like, just the question alone is interesting because of the, the context from which you and I are, are in. But also I think that there's some, some gratitude that would probably be helpful, meaning that if you, like, my brother has a job, he can't stand his job. I really hope they don't listen to this podcast. He doesn't, it's not a satisfying job for him. He has a creative, very deeply creative part of him. He has been an entrepreneur in his past life and he goes every day. He has two kids, you know, they're five and seven and there are choices that he, there are sacrifices that he makes and choices that he makes because of the, the reality that he lives in, you know? And so I don't run around and call my brother and be like, yo, entrepreneur magazine's interviewing me today. Like, I don't, you know, it's not like I'm hiding stuff, but it's just like, I have a lot of respect for what he does as well. And so I just think that there's, there's some, you can simultaneously be thrilled and appreciative of the opportunities that the internet affords us and that a global economy affords us while recognizing the, the sort of solidity and stability that people provide who aren't taking a shitload of risks and, and pursuing their, you know, Ken Robinson intersections of joy and bliss, you know, like there, there's room for all of those points of view. Yeah. I really appreciate that. It's funny. You brought up 85% of the world and I'll actually add to that. I think it's actually a lot more of this country than me. I'm sure it is. Like when Greg Hartle, my business partner said, he traveled around the country, he said, dude, he's like, there are places in this country where you don't get internet access. Internet at all. Yeah. And it's like in the United States and he said that, you know, the, the people that, you know, we deal with on a daily basis, they're not representative of the majority of the population. And I doubt even the people who listen to this show are even close to that. Yeah. See, and that's the thing is like, I feel like it's very sexy. It's kind of like saying it's like, it's like, it's like the way normal people probably feel about celebrities. You're like, oh, that looks so incredible. I wish I could have that lifestyle and God, the, the freedom and all that stuff. But there's not a lot of conversation about the downsides of entrepreneurism or the challenges of trying to stay on the cutting edge of technology and, you know, the sort of in, like your, how, how your identity can change when you take on a public persona. I mean, there's a lot of shadow sides to it that don't really, aren't really talked about. And I mean, it's like, if I'm in an interview about entrepreneurism and I bring it up, it's not people's favorite thing that I bring up, like they want, they want the conversation to be about sexy fun, fun, fun, you know, and I'm like, well, I wanted to talk about the reality, which includes that and also has some serious challenges. Hello, you know, well, on that note, you know what I'm going to ask you next, then, don't you? Well, let's talk about the shadow side. Let's go there. I mean, I honestly let's paint the picture of the darker side of this because you're right. It's not one we talk about nearly enough. Well, I think it's helpful for people because like, remember how you were saying like there's a feeling of inadequacy on the part of people who maybe have not dropped all their, all their cushy jobs and pursued their dreams? Yeah. I mean, I think that they need to hear that I don't even know in all honesty if I would recommend entrepreneurism to certain types of people because it takes a certain personality and a certain sort of constitution and I and and like there's a lot to be said for not being responsible for your own paycheck and for having a place to go and like for having boundaries around when you work. So you go home at five and you know, I mean, when my brother leaves work, he does, he's not sitting around thinking about work, you know, he's like, he's completely with his children and his wife and in the family and in the moment and there's a lot to be said for that. You know? So I think it's good. It's worth exploring so that the large majority who are not doing that can feel better about themselves. Yeah. I mean, I think that you bring up a good point at, you know, I was having drinks with a friend recently. He said, you know what? He said, my job is completely unfulfilling. He said, I'm not passionate about it, but you know what? He said, I'm actually okay with the fact that I'm collecting a paycheck. And I said, dude, I'm like, honestly, I envy your life sometimes because I mean, you live by the beach in Venice, you get paid six figures and life is actually not that bad. Oh my God. I can't believe he was like, that's amazing that he was like feeling like he should be doing something more awesome. It's like, what? He's already on the outer margin of the figure in Venice, like, like, come on guy, what do you want? You want some rose petals? Yeah. Exactly. He said, and it does, it probably said, you know, I, he's like, I don't think I'd trade places with you. I said, I don't think you should either. Yeah. Right. Yes. And, you know, I have the same feeling about being an author, which is, of course, it looks very sparkly from the outside, but there are some major sacrifices that at least I had to make. I like to talk to other authors to see what their experience was, but that looks very sexy from the outside and it was extremely challenging from the inside. So I wouldn't recommend that necessarily for everybody either, you know? So we're going to get into the content of the book here shortly, but I want to go back to one other thing you said, which I, I really, this is something that it blows my mind that we don't give enough attention to these kinds of moments, but you said, you know, a lot of it was this sort of meandering and opening doors. And then finally you opened a door and found a path that you could commit to. What I'm curious is about is how you recognize when those moments occur, when those paths show up in your life. Well, yeah. Well, I didn't recognize it at the time. I had a general sense that there was something valuable there, but honestly, I was living in San Francisco. I was, I didn't know anybody. So like, I didn't have a sort of root system or a network system that could help me find work. So I was living there for eight months before I could actually even find a job of any kind. So naturally, when I got hired at this company called the Grove, which is a consulting company that used visual thinking, I didn't see it. I wasn't even thinking along the lines of like, I hope this resonates with my inner child. You know, it was like, Oh, thank God, I have a job, you know? And so, and when I look back the serendipity and fortuitousness of that was astounding because I could not believe that I actually found myself in a place that gave me to a certain extent, one of the callings of my life, but I didn't recognize it as that at the time. I just was like so thrilled that I could contribute and show up. And then eventually when I started being able to sort of let the, the, when I started trusting that I would be there, you know, and no one was going to fire me or like, you know, like it was a place that like allowed my, my type of personality and my way of operating to be accepted, it kind of into the tribe, then I could start looking at what they were teaching. And that's when the bells started going off because what they taught had a lot of touch points with things that I had always cared about, but had never seen together in one place. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from uncommon goods. The busy holiday season is here and uncommon goods makes it less stressful with incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list, all in one spot, gifts that spark joy, wonder delight and that it's exactly what I wanted feeling. They scoured the globe for original, handmade, absolutely remarkable things. 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Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of detail. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, Price and Coverage Match Limited by State Law, not available in all states. I know that's very vague. We can break that down later. Yeah. Yeah, we'll definitely break it down. But, you know, there's one other thing you said in there that I want to go into is that moment of, okay, recognizing that, hey, I'm not going to be fired. I'm actually here to be able to do this thing, which it looks like my life's calling is about to happen. That, I mean, to me, that seems like a leap of faith almost with the track record that you've had because I know that, you know, it's funny and I'm not saying that as an insult. I'm saying, you know, personally, like, if I went into a situation, I'd be literally thinking, okay, I'm probably got about 60 days. I better, you know, abuse the privileges of working here while I can't get as much free station areas as I can make as many long distance phone calls as possible. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So making that leap of faith, I'm very curious, you know, what did that look like and what brought it about? And I mean, for people who may find themselves in a situation where they're having trouble either maintaining, you know, faith and the potential of a calling or, you know, that maybe they don't have one at all, which is even more disturbing. It is. It is disturbing for people. It's like, to your point, people feel like they're supposed to have one. Like in this day and age, the gold standard is, you know, where, what is the, I wish I knew the book by Ken Robinson that has the flame on it's called like the element. Oh, yeah. The element. Everybody's looking for their element. Like they're one fundamental core DNA, you know, passion that like wakes them up in the morning, you know, and when you find that, yeah, that's an incredible thing. It's amazing. Like that's a gift. It's a really a gift from the sort of cosmic ginormous space that we're in, but it's not, I don't think it should be an expectation by any stretch of imagination. And, and, but I think you can increase the odds of that happening to you through a variety of practices that would be good. But, and, and honestly the calling, when I refer to it as a calling, I have, I'm so interested in so many different things that I think I have a couple of different callings, like can you have more than one because I have a lot of things that I feel deeply passionate about. And so that may be also hopeful for people in the sense that it's not like, it's kind of like saying there's not one soulmate for people. There's actually a, a host of different people who could be a perfectly suitable partner. If you give yourself the chance to intersect with enough of them, you know, so if you're at a job that is not showing you something you're passionate about, there's other jobs that will. It's not like it's the end of the road. It just means you might need to make a lateral move or a vertical move, you know. So speaking of which, I think that makes a perfect setup to ask you, you know, you mentioned a variety of practices that would increase your odds. Let's talk about what those might be for people. Oh, increase your odds to find something that your element to find your element. So in my experience, a close mindedness is not going to be helpful. So if you, you know, it's just not, it's not good for, I understand it because learning is, makes your world more complicated, but it's not really going to be a good, a good trait to keep, particularly in, in today's world where you can have access to any kind of information imaginable if you, assuming you have access to the internet. So open mindedness is a big deal. And by that also, I mean a sort of a receptivity to diversity, you know, like that was a, that, in retrospect, that, that characteristic that I had turned out to be very valuable in terms of me finding my path. Also other people are resources, so I am an introvert and people do not believe this, but it is unequivocally true. I am completely and totally an introvert. I get a lot of energy from solitude and it is the place where I go to restore everything that I need to restore. But other people are essential to finding something that resonates for your life. Like if, if you imagine the world is like an interconnected web of incredible energy, if you stay at one little intersection, like one little node in the network, you, you don't even have access to possibilities because you're not connecting to that vast network of people that do. So, you know, even if your instinct is to shy away from other people or to, um, avoid them all together, that's probably not going to be, that's probably not going to serve you in terms of finding something you're passionate about, you know. So think of other people as resources. And then also risk taking, like I understand that it's not, it's not easy to take risks because there's a host of reasons why taking risks is a terrible idea. But you can't really find something that lights you up without taking some risks. I mean, you, you know, if you're one of the few lucky people who happens to be maybe born into a family of actors, so you're like, you know what I mean? So you're like, great, like I want, that's my passion and luckily my parents are actors. Then God bless you, you know, but if you, you know, your dad's an accountant and your mom's a teacher and your dream is to be an actor, then you're going to have to take some risks. I mean, that's just part of the deal. So there's a little, there's a level of comfort that needs to be cultivated with respect to risk taking that's probably going to help you also. Yeah, I'd, I can't really agree with that. I mean, I think that that's probably one of those fundamental things that it's, it's weird. You know, I was thinking about this yesterday. I said, the thing that people I think fear often is when they start, they might not be that good. And I'm kind of like, it's not a might. It's pretty much a guarantee that you won't be that good. And if you thought you would be, what the hell? Yeah. And, and the thing is that, you know, this is the question, the reason I brought this up is it's a question that always comes up for me, you know, with me, from a lot of people is how do you start? Yeah. And, and I think what they're really asking is, how do I guarantee that it's not going to suck? Yeah. Because what it is is fear that that's keeping them from starting. I said, yeah. And that's why I've never understood this inability to start. And I realized, I said, you know what, the difference between you is, is that, and people who did start is people who did start knew it was going to suck, but they started anyways, and they just worked on making it better. Well, right. And also, I mean, my, my heart kind of goes out to people that don't, that are non-starters because they're afraid because that's a real, that's a real tough position to be in. And I think it sort of relates to confidence and a feeling of self-worth on some level. So it's kind of like, if you, if you feel like, if you have never been rewarded in your life for taking a risk, when you, you know, in your young developmental life for taking a risk, then you're probably not going to. And or if there was no one to sort of encourage you, meaning that if you fall off your bicycle, there's a person there to get, to dust you off and say, you know, like, nice work, try it again, then that's also an experience that some people don't have. And that can, that can be a, a sizable obstacle to taking a risk because there's no, there's no, there's no, there's, for some people, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You know what I mean? And then there's also, of course, perfectionists who, who have this idea that the first thing you make is going to be great. And I'm chuckling because I, I completely understand that point of view because I'm right now seeking to, to start a different venture and, and I'm having to remember beginners mind like that place where you're like, I know nothing, I need to know nothing, I just need to take a step. And it's, it's, it's not a comfortable place to be. For some people, it's fun, like maybe for you, that's really fun because you're like, what's going to happen, you know, like, it's a discovery, you know, but, but I, but I, for, it's understandable to me that a lot of people are, are non starters because it's, it's a, it's a, it people think it reflects on them personally if the first thing they make is not awesome. Yeah. And if you can separate that from who you are, like what you create is not an indicator of who you are, then that is a helpful sort of psychological divide, but it's not an easy one for some people. Well, I think that makes a perfect setup to talk about my absolute aversion to trying to do these infodoodles. Oh, no, you don't. I'm just, I don't. Can you read the whole book and you still have one? No. So, so I'll tell you, let, let's actually, what I want to do is get into the process of this and then I'll, I'll talk to you about some of my own challenges with it because I think it would make for a useful case study, but let's talk about the, the infodoodling process and kind of what it is and everything, because, you know, I know you give this amazing TED talk about it, which I got to see and that's kind of how I found you, but, you know, for our listeners, we're not really familiar with this entire concept. You know, bring a, bring us up to speed. Oh, sure. Doodling, I refer to, Doodling is a universal behavior. It's throughout, as far as we can tell, it's throughout time and across cultures and spans age groups and economic status and everything. It's amazing. And one of the few, you know, truly, truly universal acts of expression. So I coined this term infodoodling, oh, let me first define doodling. I, I didn't in the TED talk to the definition, which is to make spontaneous marks with your mind and body in order to help yourself think, right? To like support your thinking process, that appears to be why people doodle. So then I coined a term called infodoodling, which is a more sophisticated level of doodling that involves integrating shapes and pictures and words into visual displays so that you can understand the world around you, that you can understand systems that you're in and processes that you go through. And like you can create maps of what I call the knowledge universe. And it allows you to reflect things back to you so that you have a better grasp of them. I mean, it's a hugely powerful tool that's sort of underestimated because it has the word doodle in it, but that's totally part of the part of the package, so it doesn't matter. Mm hmm. All right. So I love that absolutely genius explanation. What I'm really curious about is sort of the how how to of it, you know, which I want to spend a little bit of time on because I think, you know, part of the reason I selfishly wanted to interview you because I wanted to overcome my challenges with. I want you to because I thought I was like, if I learned how to do this, God, you know, it would be so useful. So full. Yes. And if I learned how to do it well. So let's let's just for the sake of context, the thing that I've been trying to do is going back and listening to my interviews and creating my info doodles for them. But where I run into challenges is organizing information in a way that is actually useful to me. And also, I mean, I'm so slow. It takes forever. And, you know, I'm like, okay, I have to go back. It's just it's such a struggle for me. And I'd imagine that's what most people and you know, I love that you made a very clear distinction about the fact that this is not about artistic talent, which I think is great. But talk me through the process of getting somebody to actually use this of getting a person who's completely new to it. Yeah. I mean, or even even me who's running into all these challenges with it. Yeah. I mean, first first thing I suggest is and I'm going to take a certain form of info doodling, which is off air, meaning that you're not tagging it to something happening in the moment, right? Like you're not like in a meeting and you're trying to write down and draw everything your boss is saying or whatever. So, but first thing is to to have a subject matter or a topic that you need to see, right? That it has enough for this is for an exercise for you personally, but that it has enough complexity that holding it in your mind's eye is too challenging because it's too rich. So it but it would be useful to try to articulate it onto a page so that you can start to understand it. So like we need to think of a subject area. It could be like how to become an entrepreneur or like how to develop a business model, like it could be something related to that if you care about that, but it could also be like, you know, somebody help me understand the global arms race. I mean, it could be anything like it's just any, you have to care about it enough to want to see it. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch. 45 dollars up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabyte. Hey, it's Mark Marin from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. 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So what do we take it from there? So let's say we have a subject matter to work with. I mean, now I'm realizing where you said it needs to be something you need to see. I'm realizing maybe the mistake I've been making is literally trying to take our entire interview and strip out every bit of information I wanted into some sort of visual. Yeah. Well, so I know I can totally teach you how to do that, which is, and it's not actually complicated. There's a section in the book called The Art of Subtraction, and that will, for the interviews, if you were to go back and sort of scan them for relevant points, that's what I would teach you how to do, is to how to subtract all the extraneous, you know, excess and just flag the meat and then display it. And maybe where you're getting stuck is, because I think I heard this in your question, you might be getting stuck in having an expectation that your first, that your 1.0 version of it is going to have any coherent structure. Yeah, actually you're right. Yeah. So that don't ever, don't even expect it. Remember we were talking earlier about like failing, you know what I mean, like let that go. Yeah. Don't even worry about it. The first 1.0 version of it, all you have to do, like imagine that the, you know, whatever the subject you're thinking of, imagine that each little bit of information is like a dot, right? And so then you're like, oh, here's 10, in this, in this like field of 100 dots, there is 11 of them that are the most like powerful or most significant. So all I want you to do is take those dots and like throw them down on the table in front of you. That's 1.0, where you're like, oh, this, all these other dots, they're interesting, but they're not really where I want to focus my attention or they're not really related to the problem that I'm trying to solve like right now. So I'm just going to move those dots out of the way and I'm going to pull out these dots and I'm going to put them on my page. That is your first thing to do because the structure like having, you know, designing an infographic is ultimately a, that takes training. It's like, it's kind of like saying, um, I want to be an improv expert, like I want to be on Saturday Night Live, right? Right. Yeah. And like, I'm just going to take a week of improv at Second City and I'm going to go audition for Saturday Night Live, you know, it's like, you got to just have patience with your process. So the first process is just getting the dots on the page and not even caring how they relate to each other, what they look nothing. Just pull them out. And then you draw like, and this is the beautiful part about this work and it's one that is invisible to outsiders, so they don't recognize it, but it's the most powerful piece, which is the process of crafting it. So like once you have your dots, you start moving them around and this is metaphors for like drawing, right? Or using index cards to like rearrange information or sticky notes to rearrange information. But the very conversation that you have with yourself when you are rearranging the dots is the very thing that will make that information meaningful to you because you start, that's the reflective process, that's the investigation, that's the discovery. And that's why it doesn't matter if it's pretty, because it pretty has nothing to do with the substance of the topic, you know? And eventually you can make it pretty, I have no doubt that you can or you can give it to someone who can, you know, it doesn't matter, like that part, I'm always like, man, you know, like next, because all I care about is what happens when one, two, 10, 20 people actually start mapping visual information together and that that incredible conversation that emerges from that is priceless, totally priceless. Perfect, in fact, that was going to be my next question is kind of, you know, I think the given that so many people listening to this are creative people, I mean, what kinds of things does a process like this start to reveal to us that becomes useful and applicable in our work? Because that's what really intrigued me, I thought, okay, what are the insights that I'm probably missing out on by just hearing our interviews versus being able to do this with them? Oh my God, it's massive, massive, massive, because here's the crazy thing about like humans is that we have this remarkable brain that tells stories and so we navigate through the world based on these stories that we have in our minds that sort of drive behavior. But the crazy thing is we don't actually always know that we have this story, like the story is transparent to us a lot of times and by a story, it's also a belief system and assumptions that we make and so forth. That's all invisible. It's all operating under the surface, totally driving. It's like the writer in the elephant, you know, do you know this metaphor? Oh, it's just a great metaphor, but it's just it's a metaphor about the brain so that the writer is the guy on top of the elephant who's like, I know everything I need to know, I have language and I can express myself and the elephant is the brain itself. That's where all the action is happening, but it's nonverbal, it's subconscious, it's like invisible, but it's the thing. It's like the very mechanism that is the driving behavior. So one of the crazy things about doing visual work is that it starts to show you the elephant and then you're like, holy shit, there's an elephant. Oh, in the room, it's like such a that's funny. There's an elephant in the room, you know? I'm like, I didn't even see it. And look, it has a fucking trunk and a tail and it's big as shit and I can't believe this is amazing. It's like that. And it's like you would not believe when you start mapping stuff, then you inevitably start going, oh my God, I drew this here. But really behind that is this other thing. And like they're right next to it is this other thing, oh my God, and it has a relationship with this thing. So it's it's really phenomenal. What happens when you pull information out, plot it in front of your face, even in the most rudimentary way, it does not like you can draw stick figures, like, you know, smiley faces, totally irrelevant. That's when the brain starts to ask questions about what it's seeing because the brain wants to understand what it sees in front of it. Like if you see a man walking down the street, a headless man walking down the street, your brain is not going to let that go. It's going to be like, how is that possible? Was that a mirror? Like your brain is going to try to solve it, you know? And it's the same thing when you put visual information in front of you, your brain starts asking questions that it wouldn't ask otherwise. I love it. It's a big deal. That's why I get all jazzed about it. I love that explanation is absolutely brilliant. So much good stuff there. So, you know, I want to start closing things up here because I know we're getting to about an hour and I want to ask you a bit more about sort of your story and, you know, all the things that this has led to for you personally, like sort of the tipping points in your life. I mean, obviously there's the book, which will link up in the show notes for those of you guys listening. But what else? I mean, what else has gone on as a byproduct of this in your life? Well, I mean, I've had like, you mean good things? Well, good and bad. If you want to talk about the bad stuff. No, it's fine. I'm not like obsessed with the bad. But the good things are that I've had like you said earlier, you know, you didn't expect your book to result in a host of different creative opportunities for you. It's a wonderful thing. I mean, you know, everywhere I go in the world, if I travel to another country, there is a community of people that are welcoming and they're like, hey, we have, we want to meet you. And I'm like, you do? Like, why? So connecting me with others has been a wonderful byproduct of it. And then there's been a ton of articles and, you know, like a lot of attention on it. In fact, oh, Entrepreneur Magazine is doing a feature. It's so cool. I'm excited about this only because of the section that it's in. They put me in the section called Business Unusual, which is one of the most apt descriptors of what I do ever. So I'm really happy about that. So there's like, there's that piece of it that is like, oh, you know, oh, my status points go up and my wealth points go up and my, you know, power points go up, you know, like stuff that I think people get real excited about. I don't get excited about that stuff anymore because I realized that it was not, it was like a straw man, you know what I mean? So maybe had you asked me two years ago, was I excited about that? I would have said yes. But I don't say that now because I understand the limitations that that can provide. So the good, but the good thing about writing the book, of course, is that I've connected with readers and people send me, I mean, the book has changed people's lives, which is the one reason that I work so hard to make it because it actually allows people to do things that I didn't see possible, you know, and that they didn't see possible. And I get affirmation of that stuff all the time, you know, and that's, that's slowly becoming a beautiful thing to witness that's still unfolding as we speak, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, I really appreciate that you brought up sort of the external accolades and the meaning that they bring kind of the meaning that they bring sort of starts to diminish after a certain point because, yes, you know, John Lee Dewins likes to ask people about their, I've made it moment. And yeah, I told them I said, I said, you know what, I, he, when he asked me, I said, and I've told, I've shared this before in the air, I said, you know what, I don't think there is one. Yeah. I think it's made up. It's a, it's a made up idea by people who think they haven't made it. Well, that's exactly right. And it looks that way from the, from the outside, like, think about when Halle Berry won her Oscar. I don't know if you remember this, but it was like she was, she was shaking. She was obviously overcome with emotion. And she was a, I mean, it was one of the most memorable Oscar moments ever, right? So, so from any point of view, you could say, Oh my God, that was her. I made it moment. The first, I don't know if she was the first black woman, but black woman to, you know, I think she might have been wins an Oscar moment of, of greatness. It's a pinnacle of, you know, and I'm like, that shit does not end there like that. Her life is a continuum. Like that. And, you know, and after that period, after that moment, there's all sorts of like weird psychological landmines that occur and there's all sorts of strange things that happen in your social life. I mean, it's like, there is no like, it's not like the gates of heaven are now open for her forever. You know, it's like she is still a human. She still has to go home and now she has to deal with the, with the fact that everything after all the work after is not going to be comparable to, like, there's a whole host of things that are troublesome related to those moments. And also, I think for a creative, if you are genuinely truly a creative, I don't think that you're ever done. I think that you are constantly evolving. Your work is constantly changing and, and for me, I actually never even give myself credit for stuff. You know, like after I did my TED talk, it wasn't like I was like, oh, that was my moment. You know, it was more like, okay, now what do I do now? Because I have work to do. I mean, it was, I hardly even noticed that that happened in the sense of me feeling like, like I completed something, not even close. No. Yeah, I think you, you brought up a great point in that, you know, you always have work to do. I don't, I don't think there's a day where you wake up and you're done. It just doesn't happen. No, I mean, I don't even know what that would be like, it would be strange. It would be very boring. It'd be like, oh, I'm dead now. Yeah. I died. So, well, Sonny, I want to ask you, you know, in closing, something that I've asked a lot of people, our show is called The Unmistakable Creative and, you know, we live in probably what is one of the most ruthless environments for getting attention that has ever existed. So, you know, what is it, in your mind, that makes something or someone unmistakable? Hmm. What I look for in other creatives is longevity. I admire people who have a lifetime of creative capacity and execution and, and maintain a level of humility and perspective throughout that process. That's like, I admire that the most, like it's actually pretty rare. So if I were to find that in the world, and when I do find that in the world, for me, it's unmistakable because it's like a diamond in the rough. Hmm. You know, I love that you've brought up longevity. I think it's, it's actually a very fitting end to our conversation because in the world we live in today, it's really easy to start. Mm hmm. Yes. Not so easy to stick with it. That's right. Maintenance and sustainability is a, it can be very elusive, particularly after you've been in the game for a long time. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So I admire it if I find it. Well, this has been really, really awesome as I expected it would be and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights with our listeners here at The Unmistakable Creative. Of course. My pleasure. Mm hmm. Thanks. And for those of you guys listening, we'll wrap the show with that. You've been listening to The Unmistakable Creative Podcast. Visit our website at unmistakablecreative.com and get access to over 400 interviews in our archives. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates, potential savings will vary, not available in all states. At Sprout's Farmers Market, we're all about fresh, healthy and delicious. Step into our bulk department to scoop up as much as you like from hundreds of bins filled with wholesome grains and limited time goodies. Visit your neighborhood Sprout's Farmers Market today where flavor fills every scoop. Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity? Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel? We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI world, and this is more than just a guide. It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch. The skills that are essential for standing out and thriving, no matter how much technology evolved. 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Overcoming a challenging childhood environment
Learning to love and nurture your creative skills
A life and career made of punctuated equilibrium
The evolution of following your bliss as a career
Discovering where you thrive and where you don’t
Why we need people who don’t take risks
The benefits of collecting a paycheck we ignore
Early foundations for the info-doodle revolution
Recognizing the moment when you’re calling appears
Increasing the odds of finding your element
Learning to remember the beginner’s mind
Creating info-doodles to make sense of the world
Why your doodles don’t have to be beautiful
Insights that get revealed through the doodling process

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