The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Using Language to Rewrite the Future with Dave Logan

Dave Logan has been blending ideas from both the academic and business world to do work that creates true change in organizations and individuals. In this episode we get into the three laws of performance, and how to use the power of words to reinvent our future.

Blending ideas from the academic and business world
Why business is the most powerful force on the planet
Discovering the work that makes you feel at home
The foundations for the three laws of performance
The synthesis of neuroscience, rhetoric, and transformational work
An insightful look into how language shapes our experience of the world
Using language to create situations and make changes on a dime
Developing a word map to leverage language to rewrite the future
Learning to make sense of things that you didn’t cause at all
The five languages of leadership and how they influence our lives
The language of change to rewrite the future
One of the big reasons that affirmations don’t work The “oracle” question and the idea of the default future
Replacing your default future with your invented future
Why a massive setback will occur when you head towards an invented future
Why we need a support system to help us get through challenges
The power of embracing the darkness of your own nature

Dave Logan is the author of Tribal Leadership, The Three Laws Performance and a professor at USC’s Marshall School of Business.

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Duration:: 1h 4m
Broadcast on:: 30 Jun 2014
Audio Format:: other

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Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, honestly, when I started this, I thought I only had to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited to premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch, whatever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of CD-Tails. You should celebrate yourself every day, but some days you should celebrate with jewelry. Whether you want to commemorate an unforgettable moment or just bring some added sparkle to your collection, Blue Nile can offer you expert guidance and a wide assortment of jewelry of the highest quality at the best price. Go to Blue Nile.com today and experience the ease and convenience of shopping Blue Nile, the original online jeweler since 1999, that's Blue Nile.com. Dave, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Thanks for taking the time to join us. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah. So, you know, I came across you by way of a friend who is also a listener and by one of your books, The Three Laws of Performance. So tell us a bit about yourself, your background, your story, and how that has led you to the work that you're up to in the world today. Sure. Well, probably the best and fastest way to get into it is I'm a chronic insomniac, so I don't sleep a lot. And for that reason, I kind of dual tracked that when I was in grad school, so my mother used to joke, she dropped me off at preschool and I never left. So preschool, you know, turned into a bunch of other things eventually, grad school, and then flipped over to the teaching side, became a professor. But at the same time, because I didn't sleep a lot, I was really intrigued with consulting and have actually been consulting probably longer than I've been teaching. So I'm one of those rare people that really, I love both worlds. I love the academic world. I love the consulting world. If I do too much of one without the other, I go slightly nuts. And so, and that's what I try to do in my work is to bring things from the academic world that are interesting ideas but haven't really landed as great, useful concepts and to get to those in terms of stories and so on. But something that behind all the stories, lurking there like the, I don't know, mechanics of a watch would be things that actually work. So my criticism of most business books is that they're either interesting or they work and they're usually not both. I mean, I made me for both. Yeah. Well, that's definitely true. You know, I want to take a few steps back to the very beginning of all of this, you know, it's interesting because to me, there's always sort of pivotal things that lead up to making the choices that we make in our lives to spend, you know, the time doing the work that we do. And it's interesting you mentioned being a chronic insomniac. I'm curious, you know, what was your childhood like and what were your younger years like and what was the influences that led you to kind of end up on this bizarre sort of career path, which is a dichotomy of both the academic and the business side. Yeah. Well, and it's even, it's weird for another reason, which gets into your question, which is I'm academically, I'm interested in two completely different things in equal measure. One is this field called rhetoric and specifically the ontological branch or rhetoric, mostly following the line of someone named Kenneth Burke, who did most of his work in the early part of the 20th century. And I'm also interested in kind of all things management. You know, I love finance. I love operations actually did my dissertation on the, I used the communication lens to understand that, but I was looking at business process, the engineering within aerospace. So, you know, so kind of how I got to all of that was I noticed that if it had to do with, with people talking, it could be speeches, it could be interpersonal stuff, could be branches of psychology dealing with interpersonal communication. I just felt like I was home, but I also felt like it was missing something. It was missing the, the ability to really shape the world, you know, because business runs the world, whether you like business or not, it runs the world. I happen to really like business, but even, even people who don't, I think would agree that businesses, the most powerful force on the planet, certainly more than more powerful than governments or central banks. And at the same time when I looked at business, it was clearly powerful, but it seemed to be lacking something really fundamental. And so I was kind of, you know, split between those when I was going through school. And I finally landed in a course called organizational communication, and it was like I had just come home. It just brought all of it together. So it's like a simple example, my, and I guess the theme of this is sort of like schizophrenia, which I'm not, but my mother was a, until she died about three years ago, a born-again fundamentalist Christian voted for George W. Bush every chance she got. And she was married for 57 years, again, until her death to my father, who was an atheist colonist skeptic, actually believed in the forced redistribution of wealth by gunpoint if necessary. And they were married for all those years. And so it's kind of, to my dad, I was really interested in the mechanical side of things and to my mother, I was really interested in the passionate side of things. And my mother would drag me to church and I would sit there and I would map out the preachers, you know, what was their communication style. And I came up with my own language for devising it. To this day, I can map any speaker from Barack Obama to John Boehner to, you know, like a comedian, and it really seems to work. So again, when I kind of landed in that course, it was just like coming home. This was my area. I don't know if that makes any sense, probably the first time I've actually expressed that. Yeah. So if I see I'm crazy, I'll just phone my doctor when we're done here. No, no, no, it doesn't sound crazy at all. In fact, it's a perfect setup for a question that I've been asking a lot of people lately. You know, you call it basically, you know, feeling at home. I call it reconnecting to that thing that we lost in our childhood for many adults. And I'm really curious, I mean, how do you get it back if as an adult, you know, because there's also people who are listening to the show have probably some of them have found it or reconnected with it. And some of them are searching for it. And I'm wondering, you know, when you've worked with people, when you've talked to people, and when you've noticed these patterns, I mean, how do we get back to that? Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I have to approach it a little differently. I think for some of it, it is getting back to some kind of a, you know, pre-adult bliss. But I think there's a version of it that we find as adults that is actually more blissful than what we had as kids. It's something different. And so I'm, I don't have any, you know, world view or like spiritual things. I just, I'm an agnostic. So please don't hear this is anything other than a really interesting metaphor. But for me, I have a friend who's a mythologist and he was describing that kind of the macro view of ancient Greece, which was that before you or I are born, we choose. We choose exactly the life that we want to have and we choose our parents. We choose where we're going to be born. To some extent, we even choose the things that happened to us in early life, including the, the yucky things that happened because it's something that the soul wants to experience. And then just before we're born, we go into what they called or what some people have termed the hollow forgetting, where we forget having chosen. And so we're born with the, these hunches, you know, these, just senses that you want to go towards something and it doesn't actually, you know, it's inconsistent. Like, why did I drift into organizational communication of all things? It actually didn't go back to anything in my childhood. It was something that only an adult would have the, you know, intellectual ability to grasp. And for me, it's like you, you've remembered the choice. And I think that's a fascinating metaphor and just take it one more step. What I'm currently interested in just is because I'm interested in like bizarre things are these medical stories where someone had amnesia and then it suddenly goes away and they remember who they are. So they actually, you know, are someone, but they don't know they are. And then they remember. And what actually happens during those moments of reconnecting, reawakening to one's identity. And one of the things that happens, believe it or not, is they have new abilities. So they might have been good at something, but they forgot they were good at it. But then when they remember who they are, they suddenly have that ability typing as one, you know, or the ability to program, you know, in a certain language as another, just, you know, with, with the return of identity comes these abilities. And for me, when I kind of remembered and putting that in quotes, that I chose to sit in the intersection of business and communication, looking at how people talk and how business shapes the world, it's like I suddenly became good at things that I wasn't previously good at. And so again, I don't know that makes any sense at all, but that's the best way that I can explain it. So my advice to people, which I think was your, was your question is you have to follow those sparks, those hunches, those knacks, you know, you're good at something and it's weird. It's random. Follow it. See where it goes. And, and eventually it will all connect. It always does, but it may take a lifetime to figure that out. Yeah. Well, that's, that's one of the interesting sort of challenges of the world we live in, right? Is that, you know, people are trying to figure out, okay, I want to do something deeply meaningful and satisfying. And yet I also have, you know, bills to pay, but I've always, I've always said, you know, sometimes that creation becomes its own reward. And curiosity, I think is one of the driving forces that leads us to so many wonderful things. Yeah. Yeah. Great. And, and we, and I think that we tend to ignore it because it doesn't seem practical. And I love that you said, no, those things that seem weird or those things that seem quirky are worth spending some time looking at in more depth. Yeah. I mean, it just, it's really true. I'm talking to my, my niece who's in her teens and, and she's interested in two completely different things, which are writing kind of creative writing, like fantasy and science fiction. And the other has to do with chemistry and, and math and, and she feels like she has to choose. And to some extent, you do when you're, you know, when you're a teenager, you do have to pick one that you're going to make your primary thing. But my advice to her is don't forget the other one, whichever one you pick, you're going to do it down. You're going to be good at it. But don't lose the, don't lose the other one. And I love the term cross-trained intuition, you know, where you're good at something, you're good at one field, and then you're good at another field, and they don't have anything to do with each other. But based on the inferences of the, of black, the field you're not using at the moment, you seem like a genius in your primary field. So for me, a lot of people have described my approach to leadership as, as really like something that they just want to sit through again and again and again, because it's so nuanced and so, you know, technical and, and yet big picture and they, they ask me where it comes from. And the truth is that it's because I studied language for so long and communication for so long. So I'm drawing on those inferences. It actually kind of makes you a genius in your primary field if you let it. I love that. Well, I think that, you know, mentioned the talk of language and communication, I think really sets, sets us up perfectly for what I want to spend the bulk of our time talking about. You know, I came across you by, as I said, the way of your book, the three laws of performance, which, you know, for those of you guys listening, if you haven't read this book, I know I've mentioned it before, highly, highly recommend it. It's definitely one of the books that was life-changing for me. So let's, I'd really love to dive deep into this whole idea of language and communication and how it affects the results that we get from our lives and how it affects, you know, the way we experience the world. Because I think it's, you know, one of the things that we find is often people will spend insane amounts of time trying to change their lives and improve themselves. And the changes are, you know, minimal at best, surface level at best. And somehow we, you know, keep finding ourselves repeating old patterns or, you know, uncovering old wounds, I guess is one way to put it. And I'd love for you to talk about how this all really shapes our ability and performance and what it means for us as human beings. Yeah. Well, it, so the thing about three laws of performance, I was the second author of the book, the lead author, Steve Zaffron, and I were in a think tank for many years called the Barbados Group that included some just fascinating people. And we, we named the Barbados Group because that was the first place we met in Barbados. And I left Barbados without a tan, if you can, that gives you a sense of how hard we were working and how crazy the days were. But eventually the Barbados Group asked Steve and myself to write that book. It was really a synthesis of a bunch of different fields. So there's the transformational work a lot of people are familiar with in there, but there's also a lot of rhetoric in it. There's a lot of complex adaptive systems. There's a lot of, of the people call it different things that the neuroscience aspect or brain science, but the, what we need to understand about the brain in order to replicate its functionings and mechanical systems are people that were, that had done deep dives on that. And so when we kind of pulled all those together and then tried to lay out the, the necessary requirements of understanding kind of how all this thing works about, you know, human beings in these amazing moments where everything changes, the thing that probably jumped out is you can't get around the fact that as human beings, you know, we use language and a lot of people talk about what's the real difference between us and the other creatures on the planet. Is it, is it a certain part of the brain? Sure. Is it opposable thumbs? Yeah. Is it ability to make tools sure? But so I'm not saying that this view is better. I think it's just, it, for me, it's the most interesting and the most, the one that brings the biggest kind of set of insights is that we have the ability to randomly assign meaning to, you know, we call them words, but it could be grunts or something. So in one language, you know, a certain expression means something in another language, it doesn't mean anything. That's an arbitrary relationship. Whereas for dogs, they bark and they know what it means. Two dogs have never met. They're not socialized. They didn't go to preschool together. One of them barks, the other one knows what that means. That's not a symbol. That's, it's called a sign where there's a, there's an inbred connection between the thing and the thing it refers to that, that inbred connection for us as human beings is broken or made more complex, you know, crime still means crying around the world, laughter for the most part when he's laughter. But our ability to use these amazing things called words. And the reason that I get so excited about that is when you then do a deep dive into that, you begin to understand with a kind of awe that most of us didn't have before, what Shakespeare meant when he talked about, you know, in some ways we're like gods and I love Mary Shelley's work in Frankenstein where she was talking about the monstrous perspective looking at human beings that we have this godlike ability to, you know, to use words. And Italy is godlike, you know, in the Judea Christian sense, I think it's, I'm not a religious scholar. I think it's Isaiah something where God spoke and the earth existed. And in the New Testament, it's in the beginning was the word and the word became flesh and dwelt among us and in the Christian tradition, that's Christ. So stepping out of the religion of all that, words have the, have this amazing power. My definition of rhetoric is it's the ability to create worlds of meaning and then populate those worlds with people. So you create these worlds where things mean something and then by inviting other people in, they then share your meaning. They share your, your sense about, about those connections and then they act in remarkably consistent ways. And that really is a godlike ability. So I, again, I'm just, I'm fascinated with that. And so when we got into three laws of performance, we were then looking for examples when primarily business leaders were using language in really unique ways and had the ability to create those situations where everything changed on a dime. All right. Well, so, you know, I, I'm sure the question that probably comes to immediate immediately when you say that the idea of using language where everything changes on a dime is, okay, how do I put that? How do I do that in my own life? It's interesting because, you know, I know what you mean about using language to assign meaning and, and all the things that happen. I mean, it, it literally, you have an experience in your life and then you tell a story about it. And you know, it's, it's so funny because I've had some challenging personal experiences and, you know, I can sit down and I can write down the objective facts. And somehow the, the story that I tell about it is still very troubling to me. It's still very, you know, I have a hard time separating myself from the story that I tell about it and the emotions that I feel about it. And I think that that, that can be the case with a lot of people for things that are challenging for them. So, you know, the idea of changing things on a dime, whether it's in our businesses, on our lives, I mean, how do we really do that? Well, probably the best way to start in this very practical technique is, it's called word mapping where someone is talking, so you'd, you'd use this towards someone else. So someone's talking and you, and you write down literally the words that they use, not synonyms or anything like that, but the actual words that they use in connection to other words. So there's a great speech that you can find on YouTube where Steve Jobs, the title of the speech, if you want to look for is, is Steve Jobs, oldie, but goodie. And it's where he was introducing the, I think, different campaign, if you remember that. And he's talking about it. And if you, and if you just map his words, so what exactly does he say, what jumps out as being the most important words that he uses, and what words does he use immediately before and after those key words. And you begin to map what Kenneth Burke described as his deterministic screen. So deterministic to term like word, so it's a screen or a filter, if you will, of words. So we don't actually see the world, we see the world through this filter of words. And if you actually map, in Steve Jobs' case, how he sees the world, you can sort of think like him. He's actually kind of spooky. And what's then really helpful is to map your own words, your own deterministic screen. And what jumps out at a lot of people when they do this is that there are certain terms that they never use in connection with other terms. So Michael Jensen, who was on the Barbados group, and has done a lot of really great work with Warner Earhart, who was also on the Barbados group around integrity at companies, has this very simple kind of application of that, that for a long time, people would talk about their strategy. And so they'd have an organizational strategy, they'd have an operational strategy, a financial strategy, but they never had a people strategy. So notice what he was doing. He took a word that everybody was using, people, and it took another word that everybody was using, and that was strategy, and he drew a line between them, and suddenly everybody wanted one of those. Yeah, we need a people strategy. What's our people strategy? How do we get a people strategy? So he just very subtly kind of rewired their deterministic screen. And suddenly they're all anxious to do something really unique and powerful. So that's actually where it starts. You want to map other people's deterministic screen or word map. You want to map your own, and then you want to begin to notice how you can drop an insight into someone's deterministic screen simply by connecting words that they don't use. It reveals people's blind spot, it reveals their abilities, their talents. It's all just there. People, if it's just kind of naked walking around, they don't know they're naked because they're constantly revealing how they see the world that's a deterministic screen. So I'd say that's where it starts. Wow. Okay. So really, really fascinating stuff here. I'm wondering if we might do this in the context of an actual example that people can hear on the air. Maybe I could talk to you through some of my story briefly, and we could pull out what you're talking about or map my conversation or map my words. Is that possible? Absolutely. Let's do it. Okay. So where do we start? Tell me about a situation where you got to some results that you liked. You were happy with the result. Could be personal. Could be business. Doesn't make any difference. Okay. Well, I'll give you two. This year I had a book that was self-published called The Art of Being Unmistakable that hit the Wall Street Journal bestseller list, and I also created and planned my first event called The Instigator Experience with my business partner, Greg Hartl, and it was hugely rewarding, probably the most fulfilling professional experience of my entire life. That's really good. Yeah. And you said you had two. So what's the other one? The book that I mentioned. I had a book that I self-published called The Art of Being Unmistakable, which became a Wall Street Journal bestseller. Oh. Okay. So one is the book, and then the other is the event. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. I needed this is great. I needed to talk just a little bit more because I need to spot some more connections between words. Sure. So can you tell me what led up to the book? Yeah. So what led up to the book? Well, I jokingly called it committing career suicide one Facebook status update at a time. But the reality of it was that, you know, I had had a lot of strange history with jobs being let go from jobs that I had been at in the past, not having a very successful career track record. And I felt that I was kind of at this point of, okay, there's nothing left to lose anymore. I've kind of cut and burned all these bridges at this point. And the only thing left the only thing I have left at this point is the absolute raw, brutally honest truth about my life, about my opinions. And I'm going to share them in a very public way. And I'm just going to see what happens. And I think that this, you know, it felt very risky. It felt scary at times and it was very vulnerable for me to do it. But somehow it created a connection with people that was unlike anything I had ever experienced. I mean, it was, it was people resonated with it like never before. And you know, what had started as a way of sharing little snippets of a project that I was working on eventually became daily writing of essays on Facebook. And you know, eventually it all, you know, kind of, it was crazy because it was like this moment in which it all came together, you know, I self published this book and I think two or three weeks after it came out, Glenn Beck, of all people found it. And the book, you know, ended up just going crazy gangbusters. I was on his show. And bit by bit, the idea of unmistakable became sort of just a huge part of my identity. I mean, you know, our show is called the unmistakable creative. You know, it's kind of the sort of filter of how we try to do things is how are we going to make this unmistakable? It's like, when we bring a guest to the show, okay, what about this conversation is unmistakable? How do we do something that stands out and stands above the crowd? And so, and even in our event planning process, that was, you know, everything that came through. And of course, I think another deep part of this is for me is the connection that is created with people. Is that more helpful than what I'd yeah, yeah, this is, this is great. And so, and so I'm just mapping the words that you're saying. And so just in this example, clearly unmistakable would be at the center of your word map. Okay. And you talked about, so you dropped in the lines that I'm sure you've used before that resonate with people about committing the, so committing certain acts. There was the idea that strange things happen. You talked about how you felt about it. See, I'm just, I'm kind of noticing that the connections here talk about brutal truth opinions. It's risky, scary, vulnerable, creating a connection of resonated snippets, daily, you talked about small actions, moments connecting the dots, and then the way you describe success is very interesting in terms of gangbusters, crazy connection. And so I guess kind of what jumps out at me is where I think you have a unique, a unique talent and a unique insight, is that you can see things that others don't see. You have a way of seeing things that in your word is, they're strange. And you also take a very proactive view of understanding yourself. So instead of saying things happen to you, you looked at the actions that you're taking that led to those, so you didn't say these things happened. You talked about you burn bridges. And because you have that ownership of everything that happens in your life, and you're able to see things that are strange and then connect the dots, is something then becomes unmistakable, you know, in your word, to you, that is not immediately unmistakable to other people. And then you connect the dots for them so that they see the strange stuff, they see the brutal truth. And then, and that initially seems risky and scary because you're not quite sure if you're brutal, truth is going to be theirs. But when they begin to see it, then again, it is in gangbusters because you've created all the connections, and then you also create connections for people. So that's what I'm hearing is kind of how you approach things. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from uncommon goods. The busy holiday season is here, and uncommon goods makes it less stressful with incredible hand-picked gifts for everyone on your list, all in one spot. 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Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in-house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. So what I guess where I would want to take that next is, okay, so we've identified this. We've done this sort of a word map. Now, you've talked about being able to make massive shifts in performance by changing language on a dime. How do we do that? I mean, how do we take what you've just said and do that? And for anybody listening, how do they do that? Sure. Well, so it's much more helpful to talk about one person's word map in particular. Sure. So, and I'm just going by what you said for a few minutes and ideally we've mapped this for a lot longer period, but probably the next place you want to go is blind spots. We all have them. So this is not in any way of criticism and a blind spot is actually not the best way to say it. It's more lack of emphasis. So what I'm about to say, I know you see it, but it's not the primary way you see it. If that makes sense. Yeah. So where I suspect you have a lack of emphasis and again, strong would be blind spot is the ability to make sense of things that you actually didn't cause at all. It's the things that happen to you where you are very much, you know, if you will, the victim because in other words, because you have such an empowered view of your life, you might miss the things that are shaping you over which you have absolutely no control and have no ability to take ownership. And there's a strangeness in that. There's a brutal truth to that that you could see if you could kind of tease it out. It's just not where you go because your gifts encourage you to take that, you know, that kind of empowerment. And so I were to set up a challenge for you, but let me just pause there. Does that make any feel free to say that's completely off? Yeah. I mean, I find that to be true in a lot of cases in relationships and in other aspects of my life. But yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, it's interesting that you say that like one of the sort of common themes that I kept coming across as I looked at certain aspects of my life where things that didn't seem like they were in my control happened to me was this idea. I remember thinking back to some of the stories in your book of things that came up when you were younger. And one of the themes that came up as I've done a few interviews recently is that this idea of not being enough, no matter what I accomplished, it's strange to think of all the things accomplished and then have this sense that I'm not enough. Right. But yeah, absolutely, it makes sense what you're saying. And so in, you know, what you're just saying there, you kind of reinforce the, and at this point, actually make call it a blind spot, which is something happens and you then go and you analyze your own behavior. How was I not enough? What did I, where did I fail? You've never used the word fail, so that word may not resonate with you at all. But where was I not enough? And so what you perhaps aren't seeing would be the macro trends around you, the things that are happening to you. And there might be some insights that you could draw, some brutal truth that you could draw about the nature of the world that have absolutely nothing to do with your actions. And so then if I were to set up a challenge, it would be take something like 30 days and your job in the 30 days besides everything that you're doing that makes you unmistakable and successful and all that, it would be to notice the things over which you have absolutely no control and that make you feel very strongly. They could be, they piss you off or it could be, they make you happy. So personally, when I look at the world, I'd spend a lot of time reading about the things that are happening in the Middle East, for example, and there's a lot of, and I'm not going into politics, but there's a lot about it that just drives me crazy. So in your case, find the things that drive you crazy that had nothing to do with you and begin to tease out the sense of values, violations in the world around you. And then you'll develop kind of an outrage, which is also something you have not mentioned is sort of the negative side, the dark side, if you will, of leadership, where you develop this kind of sense of outrage that this must end and it'll open up a completely new world of leadership to you. So anyway, something to think about, but consider it Dave's customized 30 day challenge for you. Well, that's the perks of being the host of the show, right? Exactly. Actually, let's talk about this idea of the things we don't control in a bit more depth. Because I think that that's such a hard thing for us to get our heads around. I mean, to some degree, obviously, you're a university professor, you're achievement-oriented. I think anybody who's listening to this show is achievement-oriented. I grew up in an Indian family, like, to not be achievement-oriented would probably have gotten me thrown out of the house. Sure. And so what I wonder about all of that is how we cope with this idea of the things that are not within our control when we're such driven people. And what are the things that are not in our control? I'd like to think the ability to have certain relationships, certain my control. I'd like to think my income is in my control. But I also realize there's numerous factors of life. I can't control another person's behavior, right? But I'd like to think I can through my own actions and choices. Sure. Yeah. And that's a very empowered way to see it. Well, so let me just jump, if I could, to another perspective. It fits right with what you're saying. There are essentially five, if you will, languages of leadership. And this was the primary thesis of the book I'm most known for, which is Tribal Leadership. And what you're talking about in how you approach the world is a very empowered view. And it's my view as well. And this is going to sound a little bit insulting as a way to talk about it. But it's kind of the I'm great and you're not frame. Sure. And so in the I'm great, you're not. The most important word is I, and I'll come back to I. So here's how I see it. I did this. I took action X. I got Y result. But also I failed, you know, and I failed, but I see it. So now I'm better. So it's this constant kind of self-betterment. So we call that stage three. And it's a very important use of language and it is very much a leadership language. It's what Martin Luther King used when he said, I have a dream. He didn't say there is a dream or God has a dream. He was religious. So he could have said that. But he said, I have a dream. So saying I followed by something very declarative is, again, we call it stage three. So let's actually go back. So stage two is the one I'm kind of pointing you to. And the theme of that one is my life sucks. So if you find all the ways that your life sucks and kind of dwell in that, it will give you a completely new insight into the world. And a lot of people hear that and they say, well, why would I ever talk? That's not in power. That would have gotten me kicked out of the house when I was a kid. But look back at Winston Churchill's wartime speeches and many of them are, they start with, you know, this really sucks, although we never said those words. Look at the declaration of independence. Most of it by volume or by word count is why it sucked to live in the colonies under this really mean guy who was making our lives difficult named King George. That sucked for us. And that was the part that got the people out in the pubs drinking, you know, really like talking about the need for war, the need for independence. So that's a very strong way to talk is this, you know, what's not right. Martin Luther King's speech, the I have a dream actually starts with my life sucks. And that's the language of change. That's where change starts. Going back all the way down to stage one is when we don't use it very often and shouldn't. It's a very, in some ways, dangerous one. And that's life sucks, where your view of the fundamental kind of view of life is that it's broken. And this is what groups use as a language system when they, when they do accounting fraud or they steal things or, you know, these horrible actions you hear about where people are shooting up schools and things. But, you know, it's how humanity talked for a lot of our existence. So again, stage one is life sucks and it's a useful way to, you know, to see the world. I'm not saying it's a one you want to dwell in. Stage two actually is worth dwelling in. It's my life sucks. Find all the ways you're a victim. See something that happened to you from the perspective of victimage. This happened to me, this sucked to me. And then talk about stage three. So what do I see? What could I have done? Right? It's the the iframe. And go to stage four, which is we're great. And that's where the I shift shifts to we. And now a group begins to talk about their own commitments, their own values in a collective way. And so using the Martin Luther King example, after he does the I have a dream thing and hits that line a bunch of times, then he goes and talks about we here's what will happen to the we who see the world this way, who want to create the change. And it's not going to go well for us. But it's the price we have to pay for our dream, not kind of shifts to the hour. And then the last one, number five, stage five, we call it, is life is great. And that's in the declaration of independence, the discussion of inalienable rights or Martin Luther King's example. The end of the speech is he talks about all of God's children. So that is pure, if you will, values as pure possibility. And that's a great use of language too. But here's the key as a leader, you need to be able to talk all five of them. And most of us go to one or two, and that's where we hang out for most people in the world. It's either my life sucks, or I'm grading, you're not. And for really accomplishment people oriented people, it's I'm great and we're great. But you don't really do the others. So you really want to expand your bandwidth, learn all five terminusic screens. Wow. Does that help? Yeah, that helps tremendously. It's a perfect setup for something else I want to talk about. I love this idea of expanding the terminusic screen and these five different ways of looking at things. One of the things that I know you guys talk about in the three laws of performance, something that really has struck a chord with me, is the idea of sort of rewriting the future. And one of my own challenges that I've had with this is that often it's exactly one of the things you talk about is this filing error concept. What we do is we look into the future and what we're actually seeing is our past constantly. And you said, I remember you saying that no matter what we change, there's a default future that's racing towards us or that we're racing towards. And I'd love to talk about this concept of rewriting the future. It's funny because the closest thing to it that I've experienced is my friend AJ Leon, he has people who he talks to, he says, write an evacuation plan of what your life will look like two years from now in 500 words or less. And then he said, and then put it somewhere. And strangely, I did that two years ago and a lot of the things on it actually came true. And then I had to do, I did it again recently. And I'm just, I'm very curious about your perspective on all of this given how much you got, I mean, because you guys have caused like truly measurable substantial change as opposed to sort of the hokey new age bullshit, you know, meditate and do affirmations until you're blue in the face that I've seen people do and not make a single change in their life at all. Yeah. You know, I share your, if I can use a strong word, your cynicism about the, the affirmation movement. It just doesn't work. And in fact, it's, it's even worse than that. It encourages people to accept things as they are, but then have an affirmation to kind of balance out your cognitive constructs about it. So yeah, I'm, I'm never into book burning because that, you know, takes us to really bad periods in human evolution, but I would, I would encourage people to never read those books. I actually, they, they, they, they increase your satisfaction, ironically, with how things are. And you actually want to increase your dissatisfaction with how things are. So, yeah, I mean, so the idea of the default future is very simple. It all comes down to what, what we call the Oracle question, which is what's likely to happen if nothing unexpected comes along. And so as a simple example, I was with a big company this last week, I won't name a company, but they're an energy, but, you know, one of the big ones in the world. And so I had a big discussion with, you know, several hundred people about what, what was going to happen in their company if nothing unexpected came along. And there's good that they talked about, they're, you know, having a great, they're growing and they're, they're doing very well, they're very mindful of safety and things like that. So there's a lot of good that came out. There's a lot of bad that came out that the market needs us to grow so fast that we'll probably lose our way and we'll be pushed into taking risks that may not be really good for us. And then there's ugly that came out, which was, and we might even compromise our own values in that, because we're pushed to grow and eventually the need to grow financially outweighs everything else. So we'll lose ourselves in the process. We'll lose ourselves as individuals, we'll lose ourselves as a company. This is a very, you know, proud company with a very rich history. It's actually a company that I think the world of. And so, you know, and they weren't particularly happy about that default future. But notice that's what we're kind of doing is forcing a stage two conversation, which is, you know, you're kind of at the effect of this default future. So notice what the effect is. And the weird thing about the default future that gets kind of crazy is people act in a way to actively bring about that future, whether they like it or not, is irrelevant. If you see a future, you will act to bring it about even while you fight it at the same time. So, you know, in this case, the question is, so if that default future were in the guts, if you will, of all the employees in this big company, what actions would they take? And they said things like really emphasize growth, just decide that we're going to become one of these big, dumb, lumbering, bureaucratic companies to kind of give up, don't really innovate, never really talk about values, because in the end, that's probably going to get you fired. And you know, it was really kind of scary stuff, and they were scared to hear it. And then I asked them the question, not asking you as individuals, do you see yourself behaving this way? But do you ever see others in your company behaving this way? And of course they did. So and that was really frightening, you know, for them. So then the way you reinvent the future or rewrite the future is you turn to what we call the invented future. So take that default future, put it down or draw a line, if you're taking notes, and then ask yourself the question, if you said no or hell no to the default future, what does it you want instead? Just what would you want? Don't worry about if it's realistic or not. Just you know, what does it you want? And I've done this with people that are very cognitive, very kind of evidence driven, like a lot of medical doctors and probably 10,000 by this point, and lots of engineers, lots of corporate executives, lots of aerospace people, done it at some interesting places that are into space discovery and just some fascinating things. And when you get them to talk about their invented future, you're actually shifting the conversation initially to "I'm great," but really to "we're great," and soon it goes all the way up to "life is great." And they talk about what they want and it's really inspiring. They're talking about their values, they're talking about their beliefs, their core beliefs, they're rediscovering those things that they saw as kids about why they got into this profession, perhaps. And you know, and then the rest is actually mechanical. So that's the future you want. Of course, they'll get really excited. Great. Well, let's not try to jump there all at once because it's too much. We'll lose people along the way. It's the "boil the ocean" strategy, which doesn't work. The question is, what are very simple actions that you could take that would alert everyone, yourself included, to the fact that we're not going to the default future, but we're going to the invented future instead. Something really, really simple. And like in this energy company that I'm talking about, one of the things that they cooked up is every day, just take out one minute and find someone you don't know and sit down and have them talk about what excites them about anything, excites them about their life, excites them about the energy business, excites them about the future, excites them about their families, because their view was the default future is passionless. And the invented future is all about passion and values and commitments. So if you get people talking about passion, we're then going to leave that default future behind. It begins to sort of dim, and the invented future seems much more realistic. So then you kind of stair-step your way into it. You can also do big steps toward it, but it's then the idea of small bats or little bats or the Eric Reese's stuff on Lean Startup. You find hypothesis-driven ways to get there. And before long, we're talking something to be measured in weeks, you've radically shifted the future that people are living into, and then automatically, all of their actions will change. They don't need to be reminded to do it. They don't need affirmations to do it. You don't need a coach calling you every day to remind you. You don't need a mug. You don't need a t-shirt. You don't need a screen saver with impressive words on it. Your behavior just changes. And what I love about it the most is people will say to the people who are going through that, "Did you lose weight? Are you exercising? What happened?" Because they just seem more alive. They seem more vibrant. So, it's really fun, and I love that it's actually based in stuff that works. Like behavioral economics and neuroscience and a lot of science having to do with how language functions. It's really, really cool. So a couple of questions come from this. One, you said what would it look like if something unexpected came along? How do you handle setbacks in this case? As we're moving towards a default future or the invented future, it's not smooth-set. It's failing. Right? I mean life is going to happen, things that are unwanted, things are going to occur in our life. And I can tell you this from personal experience that we came out for me through this whole experience of the year, was learning to see that, "Okay, it all goes like a wave. It's just incredible high, and then it goes back to being normal, and then it goes up and down." We had huge runs of success for like six or seven months straight, and then all of a sudden it was like, "Wow, this isn't the same again." And of course, Sean Acre, the happiness researcher says, "Your brain changes a set point for what success looks like." So I'm curious what role our actual happiness in the present moment plays in the ability to deal with this invented future, and also how we deal with the setbacks and inevitable things that are going to happen. Playing football to the friend who's just there for the nachos, hard. Tailgating from home like a pro with snacks and drinks everyone will love, and easy win. And with Instacart helping deliver the snack time MVPs to your door, you're ready for the game in as fast as 30 minutes, so you never miss a play or lose your seat on the couch or have to go head to head for the last chicken wing. Shop game day faves on Instacart and enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three grocery orders, offer valid for a limited time, other fees and terms apply. Don't switch, whatever you're ready. It took a lifetime to find the person you want to marry. Finding the perfect engagement ring is a lot easier. 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When you rewrite the future, your default future is going to come back with a vengeance. It's like a tidal wave, and it's going to try to suck you back in. It's just the nature of how all this stuff works. You've got narrow pathways that are going to remind you of how you should work. Your endocrine system is not going to positively respond to the fact that you're doing different things. Everything is going to get messed up, and so immediately, you're going to have a massive, massive setback, and the reframe for that is it's actually not a setback at all. That is the energy that got released when you broke your addiction to the default future. It's like delirium tremens if you break your addiction to alcohol or some kind of drug. People freak out, and that's actually what's happening. This is what it looks like to live into the invented future is immediately you're going to have this, but the faster you go through it, you have to experience it. There's no work around for it. The more realistic the invented future then becomes, sorry to give you a bunch of analogies, but when the first planes were approaching the sound barrier, the first thing they noticed was this incredible turbulence. They were afraid it was going to shake the plane apart, and then when they broke through, the people watching in the ground lost sight of the plane because it broke that barrier, and suddenly it was able to accelerate beyond people's imagination. Looking at it linearly, it looked like the plane disappeared, and then of course it had jumped way forward in the sky. That's actually what happens. You kind of have to know that, but then the other thing that you have to kind of realize is that if you stay focused on language during it, you'll be okay, and specifically what you want to do is rattle in all of those five languages that I was talking about, including my life sucks. Don't push it down, don't deny it, don't repress it, don't pray it away, indulge it, embrace it. This royally sucks. Talk about that. Talk about what you as a person are going to do to make it better. Talk about ungrade. Talk about weird grade. What are we as a group going to do about this? Talk about life is great. Let's go back to the intention, the values, the possibilities, and if you kind of rattle through all of those and just indulge them, wallow in them, you're able to move through it really quickly. I love that. I don't think I've ever heard it put that way before. When somebody told me, they said, we had a friend here who said that the way the universe works is sometimes we have to contract in order to expand. I thought that was a really brilliant way of putting it, but I love what you said about that. I want to wrap with two final questions because I know you've got to get going here. One is around this idea of post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic stress. You mentioned you get handed a moment that will try to suck you back into your default future, and really what that is is just making the invented future much more realistic, which that's such a great way to look at it. What's the difference between people who get sucked back into the default future versus the ones who get through this? People who experience post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic stress, because some of these events really demolish people, I think. Yeah, it's the key question in leadership. Warren Bennett talks about it as a crucible, and in one of his articles, he mentions one of the things we don't know about leadership is why some people are forged in the crucible, kind of made in the leaders, and others are crushed. I think he was being a little self-deprecating and saying that he actually knows a lot about why some people are made and other people are unmade, if you will. It seems to come down to a set of habits, and probably the most important is just the need to be grounded in relationships. You have to have people that you can release the steam on, if you will, people you can dump to and vent to about everything that's going on, including maybe even stage one. Life sucks right now. This could not be worse. I feel like God is cursing me. Great. Then that. If you have people that are really open to the full spectrum of those conversations, it releases a lot of the energy, and as you release the energy, it's one way to talk about leadership. The other is have someone, it's got to be one person that is kind of for you, the person who will only listen to you as your best aspirations. That's all they're going to listen for. You want to have other people you can talk about all the other stuff. In my case, Warren Venice is actually the keeper of that. When I talk to Warren, I am smarter around Warren than I actually am. He's an amazing person. By some telling, he invented the field of leadership. That's probably a little overstated. He's an amazing person. I'm wiser when I'm with him, and I need to spend time with him because that's how I reconnect to those best parts of myself, ironically, is through another person. Actually, designate someone in your life as the keeper of your highest aspirations. I love that. Final question for you, Dave. Our show is called The Unmistakable Creative, and I guess the question for me is, in a world of so much noise, what is it that you think makes somebody or something unmistakable? I had the opportunity to talk to Howard Schultz not too long ago, and he's big in this authenticity thing as most people are. I asked him the question in front of a group of people, probably not the great question to ask at that moment, but the question I asked him was, "What if someone is authentically a jerk? Do you then want them to be authentically a jerk, or do you want them to be inauthentically nice?" He looked at me like he didn't know how to answer the question. I don't think he'd ever been asked it before, and then he just went on with what he was saying. But what I would say makes someone unmistakable is to fully embrace with authenticity the parts of you that scare the hell out of you, actually embrace those, and I don't mean play them all the time. Don't become a narcissistic jerk, but embrace them. Embrace the darkness of your own nature and bring it into attention with the aspirations. It's not aspirations alone, it's not darkness alone. It's the tension between them, and that makes you unmistakable. It gives you a gravitas that most people don't have. It gives you the ability to just see through all the bullshit in a way that the vast majority people don't have, so that'd be my two cents. Awesome. Well, Dave, this has been just fabulous, as I expected, it would be, and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights and your story with our listeners here at The Unmistakable Creative. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Oh, if anyone wants to contact me, my website is just, it's super simple. It's DaveLogan.com. There's a ton of free stuff on there, including free audio book of tribal leadership. So I really appreciate the opportunity. Awesome. And for those of you guys listening, we'll wrap the show with that. You've been listening to The Unmistakable Creative Podcast. Visit our website at unmistakablecreative.com and get access to over 400 interviews in our archives. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it. Well, choose Progressive's name, your price tool, and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. 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Blending ideas from the academic and business world
Why business is the most powerful force on the planet
Discovering the work that makes you feel at home
The foundations for the three laws of performance
The synthesis of neuroscience, rhetoric, and transformational work
An insightful look into how language shapes our experience of the world
Using language to create situations and make changes on a dime
Developing a word map to leverage language to rewrite the future
Learning to make sense of things that you didn’t cause at all
The five languages of leadership and how they influence our lives
The language of change to rewrite the future
One of the big reasons that affirmations don’t work The “oracle” question and the idea of the default future
Replacing your default future with your invented future
Why a massive setback will occur when you head towards an invented future
Why we need a support system to help us get through challenges
The power of embracing the darkness of your own nature

Dave Logan is the author of Tribal Leadership, The Three Laws Performance and a professor at USC’s Marshall School of Business.

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