The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Living at the Intersection of Wonder, Awe, and Curiosity with Jessica Hagy

Jessica Hagy’s dissatisfaction with her work led her to self expression in the form of visual storytelling, allowing readers to draw their own conclusions and to actively participate in each narrative. She combines mixed data with humor, insight, and visuals, making complex concepts accessible and relevant.

Coping and dealing with work that is predatory
Why it’s important to create what you want to consume
The power in creating something every single day
Intersecting with nature on a daily basis
A blog post that flourished into the origin story for the book
The importance of physical and mental exploration
How starting something, no matter what, is important
Why it’s important to embrace the things that are weird
Something amazing that doesn’t require monetary output
Trusting your gut feeling around your creativity
Why we have to stop asking for permission
The cultural narrative the kills imaginative possibility
Getting to the bottom of your motivation for your art
Developing your own true north

Jessica Hagy is an artist and writer best known for her Webby award-winning blog, Indexed (www.thisisindexed.com). A fixture in the creative online space, Jessica has been prolifically illustrating, consulting, and speaking to international media and events since 2006.

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Duration:: 59m
Broadcast on:: 11 Jun 2014
Audio Format:: other

As you probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose. I'm Sreeny Rao, and this is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast, where I speak with creative entrepreneurs, artists, and other insanely interesting people to hear their stories, learn about their moldy moments, tipping points, and spectacular takeoffs. Ryan Reynolds, here, from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down, so to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing. Mint Mobile unlimited, premium wireless, headed to get 30, 30, ready to get 30, ready to get 20, 20, ready to get 20, ready to get 20, ready to get 15, 15, 15, just 15 bucks a month. So... Try at mintmobile.com/switch. 45 dollars up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first 3-month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of detail. Jessica, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative, thanks for taking the time to join us. Thanks very much for having me. Yeah, my pleasure. So, I came across you by a visit to my local Barnes & Noble, where I got to the table and there was a book there called "How to Be Interesting" and it had all these cool illustrations and naturally because of that, I was immediately intrigued and drawn to it. But tell us a bit about yourself, your background and how that has led you to doing the work that you do today. I have a rather circuitous career route, which is today I am a cartoonist who gets to draw all sorts of things and write books full of illustrations, but I started off writing advertising campaigns. When I was doing that and I was writing JP Morgan Chases, this is terrible, the subprime mortgage brochures and how great it is to take out a home equity line of credit on the house you just bought with a 0% interest rate and all sorts of vaguely predatory things. And then from there, I was like, this isn't the end of the, and I was going to school at night, I was getting my MBA, which is also kind of an evil thing on its own. And then I started writing for Victoria's Secret, which was also kind of weird. And I started this site where I just sort of ranted and drew little pictures and the little funny pictures became my way out of writing vaguely predatory advertising content. And so now I get to do that all the time. So okay, let's go back to the beginning of this. There's definitely more here that I want to dig into. You know, I think, I love how you've referred to the work that you were doing before as vaguely predatory. I got an MBA, so I happen to agree with some of that. So what I'm curious about really is, I don't think you're the only one who feels that way about the work that you did. And I think there are a lot of people who feel that the work they do is vaguely predatory or incredibly dissatisfying, you know, we had a happiness researcher here who said job dissatisfaction is at an all time high, like more than it ever has been in history. How do you, I mean, how do you deal with the emotional elements of dealing with feeling that whatever you're doing is vaguely predatory? I mean, how did you deal with it? I mean, obviously, you know, played out in forms of self-expression, it sounds like, but I'm curious, you know, what your advice is to people who find themselves in that situation. I really just started digging slowly my way out of it. Everyone thought, oh, you have a good career and you're doing well and you can't really articulate that I have this job that pays me a lot of money to do this thing. That's really easy for me to do. And I hate it a lot because that sounds like the most bratty, terrible thing. And in order to sort of put a medicinal solve of activity on it, I started drawing and I threw it online. I didn't think anybody would find it. It was more just, I needed something that wasn't a client based, constant tedium sort of a project, something more fun. And it was weird because the more fun stuff actually got a lot of traction. And now instead of, I've always been worried that if I do it all the time, it'll become a job job and it's still not. I still get to wake up and doodle and it's not a job, it's just what I do for an income. I love that. You know, it's funny that you mentioned fun because today I wrote an update on Facebook. I said, you know, create the things that you want to consume, you know, and it was based on, I just started reading Ed Catmull's book about creativity, Inc, about the process of what goes on at Pixar. And he said, he's like, you know, we were of the belief that if we made films that we wanted to see other people would want to see them too. And I think about that with everything that I create and I'm like, yeah, I want to have a conversation that I'm going to want to go back and listen to and hopefully other people will as well. And it seems to me that that really, I think there's something to be said for that. Even if you don't do it as a job, I think that self expression is one of those things that really can be therapeutic. And it's just, for me, I found that it did a number of things and it started to open up opportunities and paths that I probably would have never considered as possible careers. Oh, yeah. And I mean, as soon as something goes online and if it's, if it's a genuine sort of comes from a place that's authentic and vulnerable and honest, then people really attach to it and they're like, hey, I feel that way too. And I want to share this with my friend or have you ever thought of this because I think about this every day and it's so much better than just creating something in a vacuum and keeping a diary under your pillow? Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. Let me ask you this, I mean, I'm very curious kind of a couple of things. I mean, the background that led up to the career writing ad copy for all these big brands, you know, the journey that brought you there. And then also, I mean, all the things that have influenced the work that you do today, I'm always interested in looking at people's creative influences and the things that kind of shape their art and their perspective on the world. You know what? I have to go way back in time and get to when I was a little kid with terrible braces and I was really awkward and silent and I spent every weekend at the library collecting just like whatever I could get my hands on. And the librarians were really sort of, they knew that I was there all the time. And instead of just pointing out the same like young adult novels, they were like, go over here into literary world. And this is Kurt Vonnegut and these are literary journals and here's this and it was just like adult stuff. Yes. Awesome. Great. And I think just all sorts of different voices and messages sort of made it okay to think in different ways too. I love that. So in our world of, you know, insane amounts of noise, how in today's world do you think people can do that? Because I mean, you're you're not the first creative person who has told me about sort of this creative cross training almost like pulling inputs from multiple disciplines. It seems to be a common thread that I find between every person who creates something that's really original. I love that you call it creative cross training. That's great. Yeah. I think you get sort of sucked down your own sort of rabbit hole of curiosity and you just find yourself in places that you like so you can sort of paddle around and be like, you know what? I really like this format or I really like how these poems fit together or I really like this author's voice and all of a sudden you have this thing that becomes yours because you've absorbed it and digested it and regurgitated it in your own way and instead of just skimming something, if you spend a whole summer reading nothing but Tolkien, you will be a different person in August than you were in June. Yeah. And just if you let yourself get into it, it'll it'll change you and it feels good. That's a really interesting way of putting it. I've never I've never heard it put that way. It's almost like you're absorbing elements of somebody's voice. So on that note, that actually makes a perfect setup for a question that I want to ask. Our friend, Justine Musk, said something at our event and I've asked one other person this question on the air when she was talking about writing, she said, you know, reading is the inhale and writing is your exhale. And I thought a lot about that. But one of the things I wondered about that is, okay, if reading is the inhale and writing is the exhale, how do you prevent writing from becoming an echo? Like, how do you make sure that it's your own voice? Because you mentioned the word regurgitated. And I'm very curious kind of, you know, on your perspective around that. Yeah, I think you can't really, you can't perfectly echo anyone. And if you do that, that's a whole other skill. I mean, if you can really get yourself completely out of your work, that isn't tight. That's advertising to me. That is where I'm not here. I am just this conduit for this asshole client who wants me to sell stuff. I'm not even here. Like you take yourself out of the equation and you put words down, like you're holding a puppet. But when you get to talk yourself, you get to talk yourself and it's a whole other just like stuff can come out and it, I think that's where the therapeutic part is. Uh huh. So I want to ask you a bit about the client work and then I went into getting to the gist of what I want to spend the most of our time on, which is the work that I have known you for so far. I mean, talk to me about sort of the valuable lessons that came from that time, not just in terms of creative, but in terms of career and life that you've brought forward with you as a byproduct of working on these huge brands, especially something like subprime mortgages, which, you know, it's funny that you call that predatory because obviously the byproducts of that have been pretty terrific. And I'm very curious, you know, what life and creative lessons you've brought forward with you from doing ad copy for big brands and clients. Um, the ad copy was just, I always saw it as here's my job and I'm supposed to have this, it's this really fun job where you get to do all these wonderful things and then you go in and you get into the nitty gritty of it and you realize that every adjective is somehow politicized and every sentence is deconstructed because people are paid by the hour. So there's no point in just making something, you have to sort of make it and explain it and digest it and pitch it and spin it and then redo it again because you're getting paid by the hour and you need to do it five times and it just took took what the the creative process sort of was spoken to, but not really practiced, it felt like, but doing that and learning how to how to play with lots of different words and how to spin things and what connotations meant and how everything fits together and why it's great to have at the SARS at your right hand all the time. Those were, those were good skills. And then one of the things that now I get to do is if I have a client who's just kind of mean or nasty or coming from a bad place, I can say, I'm sorry, I'm probably not the right person for this. You should probably find somebody else and that it just being able to do that is huge. Yeah. Well, that that part I completely agree with. I think that if you are not showing up and in love with what you do, it is really hard to actually make significant traction with it and I think it's very easy to look at kind of what other people are doing and think that's what you want. Like somebody could look at your career and think, hey, that would be perfect for me. And I think the internet fools as often into thinking that, which is a whole other conversation. But the other part of what you said that I think is actually really fascinating is I think there's process and skill involved in doing creative work and there's a component of it that is repetitive. And I think that a lot of creative people who want to assume that it's just anarchy and I've realized that consistency has hands down been one of the most valuable keys to my growth. Like I can't, I've sold people, I said, look, just because you don't publish every day, it doesn't mean you shouldn't write every day or you shouldn't create every day because it's a habit. That is what I have realized is that creativity is not this vague thing, but it really is a habit. Oh, absolutely. If you get, if you start doing anything, you'll get good at it. If you work out every day, you will look great and I'm like, yeah, it just happens. It's not like you've decided to get incrementally better every day. It just happens, like you've been doing it and you know what you're doing and you get better at it. So let's do this, let's shift gears and let's really get into the core of what I want to talk about. You know, probably my favorite thing, you know, I picked up this book, how to be interesting in 10 simple steps, but on the back of it is the tagline that got me, which was how to live at the intersection of wonder on curiosity. In fact, that's probably what I'm going to title or interview. Let's talk about that. I mean, what does that even mean, you know, what does your creative process look like? I mean, how do you take sensory input from the world that you live in and translate it into what comes out on the pages of something like this? Because I work with a lot of charts and graphs, there is a visual grammar to those things. So an intersection is a conjunction. So you've got intersection of wonder on curiosity. Think of those three words, those three nouns as of the loops in the Venn diagram and intersection being obviously the intersection. So you can build sentences with graphs. So this causes this, this causes that. And after a while, you start seeing sentences as graphs and that's sort of what I've been doing for a while. And so much so that it just comes very naturally, but my actual creative process is I wake up and I wander around and I go find some coffee. And if I hear sea lions, I go and look for them. And if I don't, I wander down the hill anyway. And there are all sorts of random, crazy old people who wander around on the hills over here. And I just sort of look at things and wander around in the rain to get started. So I think there's something to the walking around, like the physical motion of getting your brain going, which is like one of the things I put in this book is like go exploring and get out and move around. And sometimes just the physical motion, I'm not sure what the chemical process is, but I know it's there. Yeah, I, as somebody who spends insane amounts of time in the ocean as a surfer, I would happen to completely agree with that. I think there's, there's something to be said for, and the thing is, it's such a, in the world we live in today, the fact that we need to be reminded that, hey, you should get up and go walk. A friend of mine told me the other day, he said, you know that they say sitting is the new smoking. I was like, they're starting to find research that this is as bad for you as smoking, which is mind blowing to me. If you think about it, though, if you were sat in one place for longer than like three or four hours, you start to feel fatigued, like sitting on an airplane is an exhausting game to do. Yeah, it really is. Well, so you know, you talk about go exploring, let's get into all of these. I mean, and how they apply to living in the world where we're living in today, because like I said, I mean, I think that it's really interesting that you can see sentences and you can turn them into graphs and you can turn them into art. Like what you do is you take that and you translate it into something else. And I'm so curious about, you know, what that looks like in general, I mean, in the process of putting together something like this book and all the things that you do on a daily basis. Yeah, um, the process of this book was one of those sort of, it started organically as a project I was working on. I was writing for Forbes, which is a business world. And I was trying to think of I was like, what is, what do you need to, what is the most valuable business virtue, like what is, what do you need to be? And so I wrote this article called how to be interesting in 10 symbol steps. And that was the sort of the origin story of the book. And it's up on Forbes and it got like millions of hits and like hundreds of thousands of shares and all this weird stuff. And I emailed my agent. I'm like, I think we have one. He's like, put the proposal together, send it over. And so that's how we got the book going. And it was really one of those things where it's like, I have an entire book and I get to make every single page into this little juicy nugget of something that is like, how can I be thought provoking and rewarding and how can I make this book like, like, heavy, you know what I mean? Like sometimes you pick up a book and it feels heavy, but then you read it and you don't know what you just consumed. And I really wanted to make something that was just dense as hell, like a black hole of a book that every page had something really sticky on it. I love that. Well, you know, I'm not going to let you off the hook that easily. So let's actually get into what those 10 things are because I think people are going to be very curious about, okay, well, how can I, how can I be interesting in 10 step and let's obviously as you go through them, I'm going to have questions about each one. But I think that really is the juice of what I want to talk about here. Because like I said, I looked at this and I was like, wow, there's so much cool stuff in this book. It's one of those things that you just keep on your desk at all times. Well, thanks. Yeah. I wanted it. I mean, some people pick it up and they're like, I didn't have any worksheets in the back and I didn't have any 10 step processes and it's the whole idea is interesting is the state of mind and it's a, it's a constant practice, like creativity, like you'd already said there and it's one of those things that's different for everyone. And if being interesting, we're the same for everyone by default, you would not be interesting because you would be like everyone else. But yes, the first step was go exploring, which is obviously like both physical and mental like read things you're not, you're not used to reading, go, go on to like the opposite political spectrum and see what they're saying and pick up their words and play with ideas and let yourself just sort of soak in it like you'll see what you absorb. Number two is share what you discover, which is really one of those, I mean, if you discover the cure for cancer tomorrow and you never tell anybody, what would good did that do, right? Yeah. Yeah. And now that we've got, I mean, we've got the internet all over the place, you can share your stuff in your pocket and become crazy on Twitter and do whatever you want. And that sharing really connects you to other people and by that, you find out more other interesting people and they know interesting things and it's this snowball of really cool stuff. Yeah. I would say that's how I've discovered people who end up on this show. Yeah. And when you get to sort of like poke around and make connections like, well, I know this friend who lives over here and they happen to do this, which led me over here to do that. And then I send that person an email and they're like, how did you find me? Well, I can say is the internet. It's rare that I can backtrack all the steps to be like, how did I find this? I have no idea. But the third step as I just keep on rambling along is to do something, anything, and that's that you have to get off the couch or you will die from sitting sort of action. And I think a lot of people have a problem with that stuff because there's this indecision of, well, is it the right thing to do? What is, what about this? Could I better smooth my time doing that? And really, it doesn't matter what you do as long as you're doing something because you'll learn something from it, even if it's that you don't like it and you can do something else. Yeah. Actually, let's stop on that one for a second because I think that that is that paralyzes so many people. You would not believe the amount of people over the years who have asked me the question, how do I start? And I guess, to me, that is one of the most frustrating questions because I'm like, I don't know because somebody always says, you get started with this show, how did you do it? We plugged a microphone into a laptop and we started having conversations with people. Yeah. And that's about all we can really say because there's no sort of thought process. But I look at this and I see people who sit down, like you said, they calculate the odds of failure. They calculate what could go wrong. They figure out what could go right. And in that time, they're not actually making any progress, but they've convinced themselves. They give themselves this false sense of productivity and I think so much of it is fear-driven. What I'm interested in is how you get past the fear to actually do something because I think that's what it is. I mean, people are scared that their work won't be that good and I always tell them, well, it won't because you're just starting. But that's the case of anybody who is good at what they do. There's got to be a tipping point between being afraid to do the wrong thing and being fed up was not doing anything. You know, like there's that one day where you're just like, oh my God, I'm completely out of shape. I need to go to the gym. And you go to the gym. Not because you decided to do the math or you figured out exactly what music to download and outfit to wear and all the little details. You just said, oh, I'm going to go do this. And that decision point just happens. And some people it happens a lot and they're just serial project doers and they make all sorts of things and they do all sorts of stuff. And other people are very calculating about it. And if you're a little, if you let yourself be impulsive and greedy with your own time, you'll get more done. That's a really good way of putting it. Thanks. So the next piece, one of my personal favorites and which actually got shared a lot when I put it up. Is embrace your weirdness, yes. Because I mean, again, if you go back to looking at what is normal, you could every single person will define normal in a completely different way. It's a subjective word. Everyone wants to be accepted and not ridiculed. And yet you want to stand out and yet you want to be noticed. And so just letting go of the idea that you aren't normal and being like, if you're a little bit weird, run with it. It's your thing. You've got it. It's memorable. It makes you happy. It's part of you for better or for worse. Let it go. Well, yeah, I think that that's I think that's really, I mean, probably one of the most common threads between the people who make their appearances on this show. I mean, what to me makes you unmistakable is that you're a little bit weird. But I guess the question that comes from that really is bringing that weirdness and translating that into whatever art we create, whether it's in the form of writing, translating that across your voice as a writer, whether you're an illustrator, translating that across how you draw and how you choose to do cartoons, or whether you're a musician. I mean, any field I'm very curious about how we take that weirdness and actually translate it into something useful. You know, I don't think it has to be useful. I think a lot of these sort of business spins on stuff are all about creating value and generating productivity and being the best, whatever the hell you are, you can be. And to what end though, I mean, if you're being, if you're making just more crap, productivity is not a goal. And if you're just, if there's something authentic and human and it's an art form or it's something that makes other people happy, that doesn't have to have like a monetary output. You can have the best, most beautiful site anywhere. And all it has to do is make you happy and it's a worthwhile thing. Oh. Yeah. I love that you said that, you know, I, I'd always said, you know, one of the great things about creativity is that creation starts to become its own reward. And somebody actually really challenged that idea of somebody who had read my book and he said, yeah, this is all well and good, but he's like, I don't have the time to do this, if it's not going to make me any money. And I thought, damn it, you really kind of missed the point of the entire book. That guy needs a hug. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think that, you know, it's funny. You know, I mentioned the Pixar book, and it's fitting that we're talking about this because the very introduction to the book, Ed Catmull is talking about the environment at Pixar and how people are, you know, given the freedom to set up their cubicles. I mean, he said, you'll find people whose cubicles look like haunted houses that look like castles made of styrofoam. And he said, the bottom line is this is that we value self expression. And I really, I think that, I think that that's something that you really, you'd have to own that and be, to me, that's, that's something that you're missing out on when you don't value your own opportunity for self expression. I think you're, you're missing out on one of the great gifts of the time that we live in. It's such a fundamental human thing. I mean, you go back to like cave paintings and all that stuff. And I mean, it's not like we just thought of drawing or singing or dancing around and being silly with our friends when the internet popped up. This is, this is a very long term human thing and to sort of repress that because you must be highly professional and very productive is, is sad. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from uncommon goods. The busy holiday season is here and uncommon goods makes it less stressful with incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list on one spot. Gifts that spark joy, wonder delight and that it's exactly what I wanted feeling. They scour the globe for original, handmade, absolutely remarkable things. Last year, I found the perfect gift for my nephew, periodic table building blocks. These blocks were a big hit and considering he was talking in full sentences before he even turned to, I'd say that's a pretty good win. They're not just educational, but also a fun way to spark his curiosity. 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To get 15% off your next gift, go to Uncoming goods.com/unmistakable. That's Uncoming goods.com/unmistakable for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer, Uncoming goods. We're all out of the ordinary. Hey I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like to do the opposite of what Big Wireless does. They charge you a lot, we charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at Mint Mobile.com/switch. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of detail. Yeah, it really is. I mean, I see that over and over and what's funny, it's so funny that you mentioned sort of this corporate thing. I see it of all places in businesses, in big business where you're kind of like, okay, you guys want to have innovation, you want to have breakthroughs, you want your employees to be creative. And yet, there's 60 legal procedures that you have to go through to put out a tweet. I remember some girl at Disney was telling me about that and I said, you have to get legal approval to send out a tweet and you work at Disney? That's problematic. Yeah, and then or sometimes people are like, well, don't you love the brand, don't you believe in the brand? I'm like, no, it's make believe. That's the point. That's what we're all here to do. We're here to make things up. Yeah. This isn't real. Like, it's the logo on your polo shirt is not a person like, yeah, no doubt. So I mean, the other piece you talk about is having a cause and I really, it's funny because I think that I think back to the work of Simon Sinek and, you know, purpose, which I think gets, you know, almost overblown to the point where we feel like, okay, I can't do anything until I find my purpose. I mean, that question drove me nuts for so long yet I think that like, it's almost one of those things to me that even if you can't articulate it, you know, you have it and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts around this entire idea of having a cause. I think having a cause is just a gut feeling. It can be as big as I'm going to eradicate malaria or it can be as big as I love my spouse so much I will do whatever it takes to make them successful and happy and get that done. I will be an enabler to this, to this person or this project and I will root for that with my actions and finding, finding your cause like mine is just, I want to do really creative fun things and I want to make people smile and I'm not going to change the world and I'm not going to cure cancer but I'm going to make 10,000 people smile today. And I think that as long as you've got that in the back of your mind, it makes it easier to get up, to do your invoicing, to file your taxes, to do all of the little things that make your bigger thing possible. Yeah, I love the gut feeling thing because I think, like I said, it can become another one of those things where you just get paralyzed and don't do anything and, I mean, it took me a very long time to figure out what it is that draws me to doing this work. It was funny because Simon Sinek said, he's like, you're enamored by people who are good at unusual things and I said, well, that makes all the sense in the world considering the people that I talk to on a day-to-day basis. They're good at things that I'm not good at or there's something fascinating about why they're good at what they do and they're not, I mean, like you, you've made a career out of something that most people would not think there is a career there, which actually brings up another question for me. I was talking to a friend yesterday afternoon and telling him kind of what I saw as the future of our company and our show and where I could see this going with our salon events that are live in multiple cities, which we announced recently and we're going to start rolling it out to different cities. He said, the thing is that most people can't imagine something like that as a possibility and I would imagine that, you know, looking at your life, most people can't imagine something like that as a possibility. So I'm really curious, you know, when we're sort of living at the intersection of wonder on curiosity, how we start to imagine possibilities for ourselves that may not really be there. I mean, how we look at something like a blank slate and say, hey, you know what? Wow, I may have never considered that as a possibility, but it's there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think sometimes you just need that germination point. You need like one hit of success, like a tiny success to get the ball rolling on things. And then all of a sudden, you're like, you know what, I did this. What if I do that? And then you're like, well, do I want to apply for these contests or do I just want to take what I have and offer it to somebody as if they're getting something? But then I win too. And everything's awesome. And I can just say, hey, let's go do this because as long as you start saying, here's what I do. Let's do this together. It's entirely different than asking somebody for permission to do what you do anyway. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So it's just sort of like, I'm doing this. Sorry, everybody. And most people are like, oh, that's cool that you're actually doing it. That's how can I help as opposed to, well, we don't have the bandwidth for this to happen inside the office. We need legal to look at a blog post before we do it. That's what I think. Yeah. Well, I think that you're right. I mean, I think that we like, I love the idea of thinking that, hey, you have to have permission to do anything, which for most things in the world, you don't need permission. I mean, you know, I'm not suggesting that you break the law, but you really don't need as much permission as you think for almost everything. It's true. But if you think about what you've been taught the whole time, like school, and then you get to work, you need permission to have access to another printer at the office. And when all the little things like that are so codified and there's paperwork around everything to get out of that mindset into like the free form of not at work. Sorry, there's my printer is one of those things that you're just like, it's a, it's a big sort of a mind twist to realize that, yeah, I can do whatever I want. Yeah, I think it's, it's almost an overwhelming mind twist, right? Suddenly you're, you're faced with, oh my God, I can do whatever I want. And then people end up doing nothing, but that takes us, you know, kind of back to the earlier part of our conversation. I just, it's like you said, you know, we, the narrative, you know, as I was having the conversation with my friend, I said, how tragic is it that we, you know, we, we've created such a narrative in our culture that people stop imagining possibilities for where they could end up and what they could do? Yeah, you get the sort of, well, you have to go to college and you have to do this and you have to study a STEM because if you don't get a degree in STEM, you'll never get a job. So don't bother with history or art or any of the things that make your soul tickle. You just have to go do this thing that you hate or else you'll live on the street forever and die. That's kind of the narrative anymore. It's getting really cutthroat out there. Yeah. Yeah, it really, it really is and it's, it's, it's interesting, right? Because I think that one of the things that I feel as somebody who does this show has a responsibility to do is to help change that narrative by finding people like you in the world. Well, I think there were, there's actually the scarier the narrative gets and the more people are sort of frightened into behaving themselves and I put behaving themselves in air quotes over here and you can't see me doing it. But I'm making weird gestures is that the fewer people who are out there playing and doing stuff, the slower the economy gets and the more boxed in to the job you didn't want the first place you'll be. And it's, if everybody does get to wiggle a little bit and have a side gig and collaborate with people, they would never meet at work. That's healthy. That's economically healthy from that like business productivity standpoint. And it's mentally healthy. Yeah. You can sell this. There's a business model for being weird. I love that. Well, so speaking of which, you know, it's funny because that the next piece of this was minimizing swagger, which talked to me about that and what you mean by that and how we make sure we don't lose the balance because I think to some degree, I mean, if you're weird and you're creative, there is a bit of swagger, isn't there? You know what? I think some of the most creative, wonderful people don't introduce themselves as, hi, I am CEO and founder of Big Fancy Thing. Sure. They're just like, Hey, my name's Tim and I make stuff and you're like, cool. What do you make? And then you talk about it and you're like, Oh my God, Tim owns $17 billion worth of technology stock. And that difference in just how you introduce yourself and how you go about doing things. If you go about it from a place of I do really fun stuff as opposed to I am very important. And even sitting down to a blank piece of paper, you'll get more onto that piece of paper. If you think about it as like, I'm going to do really cool stuff instead of I have to prove that I'm a really cool person. I love that. Every time you go to make something. Wow. Yeah. So this is, you know, for those of you guys listening, this may be the most profound takeaway we've had so far. I mean, that is brilliant because it's true. I mean, I have always said anything that you create based on your ego. Somehow it always come back. It's either shit. It just ends up being bad or it comes back to bite you in the ass. Like I realized and it's and it's actually, we live in a world where that's actually not as easy as it sounds because everybody is constantly touting the accolades or the things that they've accomplished or, and I'm as guilty of it as anybody. I mean, we perpetuate this image that we have of ourselves because, you know, we're crafting these personas and yet it's really easy to get caught up in what I call the ego driven pursuit of a life that looks good on paper. And I said, you know, we have to be careful that we haven't just made a shift from the ego driven pursuit of a life that looks good on paper to one that looks good on Facebook. Oh, wow. Yeah. Like, we used to just have to put out a resume like whenever we looked for a job, right? That was the extent of self promotion for the average person. And now every morning you're like, well, what am I going to post or what am I going to update or how am I going to craft my digital persona to put off these vibes? And so much of it feels so very calculated. And as somebody who lives online, I do not like the self promotion stuff. I would so much rather make something and say, like, here's something I made instead of saying, well, look at this prize, I got, whoa, because it feels really weird. It feels it's like, I don't want to put out a Christmas card newsletter every day on Twitter. I want to make stuff. And it's hard. It's hard to see that though, because it's so much of what this, the social media really is that God, that business stuff gets into everything, like sell, sell, sell. Yeah. Yeah. So it's an interesting balance and we'll have to talk a little bit about that. But you're right. I mean, I think that I want to make cool stuff. I think that starting with that as sort of the lens through which you view your creative process, again, I mean, it takes us to the idea of create what you would want to consume. Like if you're, I always, my thought around this is that when I look at something and when I finished writing something or when I finished an interview, I've got to feel like, wow, that was cool. And if I don't, I'm like, well, why are we sharing this or why are we putting this out into the world? It's that, you know, it's like, I want it, like when we create interviews, I'm like, I want to go back and I want to listen to something that I'm going to learn from or I'm going to enjoy or be entertained by. And I think that, you know, the cool thing about that is that whether anybody listens or thousands of people listen, you're still rewarded by that. Yeah, they're just making something that you can look at. I was asked in an interview fairly recently, like, how do you know when something is done? And I'm like, when I like it, I love that because I mean, an art, in the, any art thing, you can redraw or rewrite or re-edit over and over and over again, and it can, it can be a billable hour project where you just keep futzing with something or it can be a thing where you're like, this is cool. Hit send. Yeah. Yeah, I think I love that as the barometer have done when I like it. Yeah. I would have to agree. I mean, we, you know, with everything that we did for our event, it was the same thing. It was a creative process of even picking the venue, we would walk in and be like, I hate this place. Let's leave. Yeah. I mean, we knew instantly and right when we walked into the place, we had it like, this place is really cool. We could do a lot here. It's almost like you just instantly know. And I think that you have to learn to trust that intuition too, that I think is a skill that gets developed as you create more and more. It's true and that intuition saves you so much time because half the time, if you were to put sort of like a grand plan with an Excel spreadsheet narrating the pros and cons of every decision you've ever made, it's still the end. It's flipping a coin or ruling a die. Any of your decisions will probably be just fine. Yeah. Well, I mean, that takes us to the next piece of this, which is giving it a shot. I'd love to hear what you mean by that and how we, you know, as part of how we're being interesting in the world, giving it a shot. Yeah. A lot of so much of what I hear when even talking to people who are like, I want to work in a creative place, and I'm like, so what's your portfolio look like? And they're like, of what? And I'm like, your creative stuff that you want to do all the time, that you haven't ever done. So when you want something, just make it, just do it. Just don't ask that permission. And if there's, gosh, how do I say this? There are so many people who want to be authors, but they don't want to write or they don't like writing or they don't like reading. And that's, it's sort of like, well, that's not your thing, then. You want to be like a vice president in your company. You don't want to be an author. You don't want to, you don't want to be an artist if you don't like painting. You want to be something else and finding out like what it really is, like get to the bottom of your motivation and you'll be fine. And then just do what it is that really makes you happy, as opposed to what you think you should do for accolades or bullet points in your resume. Yeah, that's, and you know, it's funny because that can go in terms of the creative way, too, right? You feel like, oh, I should have this creative, crazy project because everybody I know does, you know, it's like, hey, listen to all these guests on training show, they're up to really cool things in the world. So I need to be up to something cool. And that's, that's a lot of pressure. Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes you don't, you don't have to go do like publicly cool stuff like it might make you happier to just be like one of those people that volunteers at the park and like picks up trash and that might be more, that might be happier for your soul than painting giant canvases. It's up to everybody. Yeah, that, that's the thing I think I've, I've, you know, come to a conclusion that somebody asked me, you know, like, do you think I, even when people ask me, do you think I should quit my job? And I always kind of have to say with a grain of salt, I'm like, no, not necessarily, even though maybe I've perpetuated that at times. And people who've been on the show have talked about that as their life. But I don't think that's the right choice for everybody. I don't know that there is a right or a one sort of right choice for everybody. And that's where I think we get into trouble as we listen to something or we hear something. And we're like, okay, well, that was inspiring. I want to go and replicate that. Like it's, it's the crate. It's what I call the mimicry epidemic where somebody sees a life coach and you know, they hire them and they'd come to the conclusion that they would, what they want to do with their life has become a life coach. Yeah. Which drives me absolutely insane. Yeah. Again, that's sort of that gurgitating versus absorbing and transforming into your own version of whatever it is you got. I mean, just because you watch the Olympics doesn't mean you should go do skeleton. Yeah. Although there, there is a curling location near my house and I'm fascinated by that. I really want to go try that. I hear it's a lot harder than it looks and those rocks are heavy, but is curling that thing where they push those giant things down the ice? Yes. You were obnoxious golf fans and you skate with a rock. Yeah. I've always wondered how things like that are considered an Olympic sport, but then again, who am I to judge? I'm, you know, I'm not the most athletic person in the world. My gosh. I mean, there's a mob involved. There's a fancy bomb. I just, everything about it just looks really fun. I would probably fall and be terrible, but I should probably go do that soon. So the next piece of this is, you know, funny, that we're having a conversation about, hey, maybe, you know, quitting your jobs and for everybody, but then the next piece of this is hop off the bandwagon. So let's talk about that. I mean, what do you, how do we interpret that? I mean, there's so many ways we could go with that. I think that is people do follow what seems to be trendy or popular or everyone's doing it. So just, I mean, should I quit my job and go be an internet, whatever the hell, I don't know. Everybody has thousands. There are thousands of different ways to be interesting and good and talented and helpful. And you have to find your own, you can't just go do what your cousin did or what your uncle did. I mean, this isn't like the organ trail time where everybody hops in a conno-sogo wagon and takes off for the west coast because that's what all the other 10,000 people are doing. You have to sort of build your own little tiny trail and find out what that is because if you're just sort of picking up us weekly and dressing like a Kardashian, that's, that gets into that just, oh, you're one of those people. And as soon as you can be in a category like that, you're doomed. Ooh, I love that. Yeah, that, if you're categorized, now that, trying to escape a label, this is actually interesting because I think that can become vicious too, right? Like, you don't want to be categorized, but we also want to feel like we belong to something, which is an interesting dichotomy. I think one of my favorite sort of examples of that is the hot topic goth kid who is, I am so different and I am so deep and I am so unique and I went to the mall and I got an outfit that says so. If you can do that and you're sort of falling into that, okay, really? Are you, what about this idea do you like and how can you manifest that in your own way? Because everybody's got their own spin on it. They're just sort of afraid to say it out loud. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts, they said, what the f*ck are you talking about? You insane Hollywood f*ck. So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of details. Yeah, it's one of those things I think that everybody definitely has their own spin. And I think it's learning how to communicate that in a way that is effective for you. And not just from, like you said, a sort of gaining standpoint or taking from the system or saying, hey, I'm making it effective for me because now I'm making money. But really that you're sort of brought to life by. Yeah, I mean, the animating function of something you love is the fact that you love it, not the fact that it's cool. Cool. Yeah. It's that actually is one of those things. I think that it's funny because ego is what gets in the way of that, don't you think? Oh, totally. It's like, you know what, I really just want to wear these like, this crazy outfit. And then you're like, but people would think I'm funny about it, but it's like, but once you do, like you become that crazy, weird person and people are like, what's that about? And you can tell them. And they're like, oh, that's okay. Nobody. I don't think people are as mean or as judgmental as we all think so. And nobody, I mean, nobody cares about your hair, but you just, it's, it's okay to do what you want and own it. And if that means living in a Zeppelin, okay, cool, or a yurt, that's fine. If it's having two different socks on and that's like the little thing that makes you happy every day, good morning. Yeah. Well, I think that that, you know, that really, it's interesting, you're right. I mean, I think that people always think that they're permanently defined by whatever they created and that people will permanently identify them with that. And I realized something that most people are only paying attention to your next move. Oh, yeah. Stuff that you created months ago probably hasn't seen the light of day in a while. And even if it does, it doesn't really matter. It's like the coolest thing to, to see somebody who has evolved as an artist and look back at what they've made. And it's like, wow, really, that's, it's, it's my, you can say it's like, I can't believe the same person wrote this or created this. Yeah. And it's a, I mean, oh, you're growing really. Oh, great. You have proof. There's no shame in having stuff that you made a long time ago that's different than what you made now. So I think that that makes us, that takes a, that makes a perfect setup to talk to you about this next concept, uh, which is to grow a pair, uh, which seems pretty obvious what that means. But let's talk about that in a bit more detail. Uh, I think that means really the thing that I kept running into and not even because I was like bashing my head against the wall, I just kept doing things. I wasn't, I wasn't being belligerent or like tearing down structures. I was just blogging. I wasn't doing anything weird, but just not listening to people who are like, that's what is that? I don't understand why. What about this? Like you're just doodling, right? Like what are you doing? And just ignoring the nastiness. So nine and 10 are kind of mixed together for me. So nine is grow a pair and 10 is ignore the schools. And just to be brave about what you're doing and to run with it and to stand up for yourself and to not let all the little negative, well, why does that matter? Or you know, you really shouldn't be in the space or you don't have these qualifications really mixes together that you have to sort of have your own true north, which is, which can be as simple as I deserve to do this, or I have every right to say this, or I want to. And just having that sort of as a background starting, you need that so much. I love the idea of having your own true north. And I think sometimes it's really easy to lose sight of it or not know what it is at all. So I'm curious how you deal with those two situations. Then you lose sight of it. How do you make sure you stay true to it? And then if you don't know what it is, how do you figure it out? Yeah, I, when I first started drawing stuff, I was going to school and going to school felt so good. Like my brain was getting new stuff and it felt so good. And I was just, I was, I knew it was the right thing to do because it felt good in my brain not in like a hedonistic way, but in a, I'm learning things and I can use this and I've got this for the rest of my life that I can go and think about things in this way that I didn't know how to do before. And that sort of feeling that you get when you do anything that is like satisfying, like when you put stuff out there and you're like, I put out this conversation and it was really cool. And I got something out of it. I know somebody else will too. That positiveness that's like floating to the top as opposed to, yeah, I didn't do anything today and I should have replied to that guy, but I didn't and it's just that, that buoyancy versus that heaviness of like the wrongness, the wrongness of JP Morgan chase ads. So let's, let's shift gears a little bit. And I kind of want to hear about sort of the, the career trajectory after you've started doing this work. I mean, obviously you published a book, which is how I have come across you. I mean, but talk to me about some of the byproducts of, of what has happened since you started doing this. Gosh, I, it's so much fun. I don't know what's going to be in my inbox every day. So I started the blog in 2006. It was one of those like free blog spot things like to this day, I can't code for crap. And it was one of those, I threw it up there and it started bouncing around the internet and a couple of weeks later, I got an email from my agent who is perpetually like the fairy godfather from the internet that has saved me every time. And he's like, let's try this into a book, like, what the hell is happening? And then I got emails like, have you thought about, would you like to speak at this conference? I'm like, yes, put me on a plane. Let's do this. And then I would meet people who were doing other really neat things and they became my friends and then they're like, well, let's go over here and try this. And do you want to contribute to this book? And can you draw this campaign for us or can you illustrate these things for us? And it just became, my inbox is a great, a great, wonderful playground for me. I get to respond to people and say, yeah, I'll draw that for you. Yeah, we can do this, sure, I'll help you. And it's, it's great. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting how it's like you said, one of the things that's been sort of a fascinating sort of contrast for me to watch is people like you who have sort of grown organically as the byproduct of something that made them curious and has had, you know, it is clearly a high level of success. And then the people who, you know, by courses try to follow systems and methods and strangely, you know, the people I see who are cut above the noise and somehow stand out are always people like you much more than the people who are trying to replicate something that they saw work. And I really am curious to hear your thoughts around this. I think I would put it as if you're trying to win a contest versus start your own prize. So if you, if you know that there are going to be 20,000 entrants to Yale and you really want to get into Yale or you want to have a really great job after Yale, like what's your goal there? You want to just go out and start making crazy things, go make the crazy things and then you will be invited to speak at Yale and you can just circumvent a lot of the where there's a lot of traffic, there's a lot of competition. And if you can figure out how to win that without competing, it sounds really sneaky, but it's not really, it's more like everybody wants to be the best at X, Y, and Z if you're the best at your own thing, which is like an R, then all of a sudden nobody's competing with you. And then two weeks later, everybody wants to be an R and X, Y, and Z are forgotten. Just make your own, your own vertical market, I suppose. Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's funny. I think that a lot of people have said that and says, you know, you go in the opposite direction of what you think you might be and eventually a crowd will start to gather. Yeah, if you do anything, like even the most bizarre thing really well, you will have groupies and people will emulate you and there will be knockoff versions of your bizarre weird niche thing. And that's kind of fascinating, kind of creepy, but it happens. And it's just one of those things that go ahead and be weird. If nobody else is doing it, you've got a good shot at a market. So you know, Jessica, this has been really, really cool. You know, we're getting close to about an hour here and you know, you've answered this in multiple ways throughout our conversation, but I'm very curious in conclusion how you would really sum this up. You know, our show is called the unmistakable creative and we live in probably the noisiest time in history. So the question for me is, you know, in your mind, in the years that you've spent creating stuff, looking at stuff on the internet, connecting with people, what is it that makes something or somebody unmistakable? When they're not trying to be somebody else, but they have something just on the inside that they have to get out and you can't miss that. It can be drawn in Microsoft Paint, but if it's got feeling, people are going to love it. Wow, that is really, really cool. I love it. Well, Jessica, as I said, this has been fantastic. I think our listeners are going to learn a lot from our conversation and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights with our listeners here at the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, my pleasure. And for those of you guys listening, we'll wrap the show with that. Today's episode of the unmistakable creative has been brought to you by FreshBooks, the simple accounting solution for business owners who want to skip the headaches of tax time, no more hunting receipts, digging for invoices, or going through records one at a time. For a limited time, you can try it free for 60 days. That's two whole months to see how much more efficient it will make your invoicing process. GetFreshBooks.com to learn more. And remember, when you get to the "How did you hear about a" section, enter unmistakable creative. And don't forget, when you support our sponsors, you support our show. And get access to over 400 interviews in our archives. Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity? Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel? We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI world, and this is more than just a guide. It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch. The skills that are essential for standing out and thriving, no matter how much technology evolved. We're talking about real differentiators here, like creativity, emotional intelligence, critical thinking, and much more. Inside you'll find actionable insights and strategies to develop these skills, whether you're a creative person, a business person, or just simply someone who loves personal development. This isn't a story about tech taking over. It's a story of human creativity thriving alongside AI. 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Coping and dealing with work that is predatory
Why it’s important to create what you want to consume
The power in creating something every single day
Intersecting with nature on a daily basis
A blog post that flourished into the origin story for the book
The importance of physical and mental exploration
How starting something, no matter what, is important
Why it’s important to embrace the things that are weird
Something amazing that doesn’t require monetary output
Trusting your gut feeling around your creativity
Why we have to stop asking for permission
The cultural narrative the kills imaginative possibility
Getting to the bottom of your motivation for your art
Developing your own true north

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