The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Navigating the Challenges of a Nomadic Marriage with Betsy and Warren Talbot

A moment that shook them to the core caused Betsy and Warren Talbot to reevalute what was truly important in their marriage and their lives. They got rid of their belongings and decided to travel the world together. But the dream hasn't comes without unexpected challenges and hurdles.

Being shaken to the core in order to make changes in your life
Embracing the life you want to have vs the one you created
A moment in marriage when a deep connection occurs
Why you must work every single day towards a dream
The difference between a dream and a fantasy
Distinguishing what we want from what we think we want
Why you can’t be afraid to admit that you hate your dream
The harsh realities of navigating a nomadic marriage
Running away from a life vs running towards a new one
Learning to trying the things that bring more joy to your life
The importance of not being too specific with your plans
Why you never want to bridge the gap between you and a dream
The dangers of focusing on the outside of a relationship instead of the inside
The moulding moment of Betsy and Warren’s marriage
Bringing trust back into a marriage when it’s lost
The uncomfortable conversations that take place when saving a relationship
Navigating difficult circumstances of your life in the moment
Running a business as a married couple

Betsy and Warren Talbot are a recovering, 40-something, Type-A couple who learned that living large is not necessarily living well

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Duration:: 1h 5m
Broadcast on:: 14 May 2014
Audio Format:: other

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A moment that shook them to the core caused Betsy and Warren Talbot to reevaluate what was truly important in their marriage and their lives. They got rid of all their belongings and decided to travel the world together. But the dream hasn't come without unexpected challenges and hurdles. Listen in as we talk about navigating the challenges of a pneumatic marriage. Betsy and Warren, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us. Hey, Trini. It's good to be here. Yeah, I really should say welcome back because we've had you guys when we were broadcast FM a handful of times, but we've got a lot of new listeners. It's been quite some time since we've heard your story. So tell us a bit about yourselves, your background and how that has led you to what you guys are up to in the world today. Well, Trini, we were currently in Spain, but we didn't start out here a long, long time ago. We were married. We were working on the hamster wheel, just like everyone else. We had the corporate jobs, working hard, strapped to our cell phones and laptops. And we decided and we had two people that were really close to us. They got really ill and almost died and that shook us to the core. And one evening over some drinks, we decided that we really needed to make a change. Life was too short to not embrace the life that we wanted to have, not the life that we had created. At the time we were both 37 and these two people that were close to us, they were in their 30s too. And, you know, we just looked across the table with each other. We were with a group of friends and said, if you weren't going to make it to your 40th birthday, what would you change about your life right now? And we both said travel. And I think that was the moment where everything changed. It was this seminal conversation that changed our perspective on what was possible. It was no longer being held back by what we should do, the jobs that we should have, the retirement plans, all those things faded away. All we wanted was the two of us together, going out to explore the world and follow our dream. And, you know, I have to say that that actually was the point that I felt the most connected to you that I ever had. I mean, it was just, I can't even explain it, but it was, we had had our ups and downs in our marriage. Yeah, we'd been close to, yeah, we'd been close to divorce and, you know, we had had a lot of challenges. And so this was that kind of ultimate coming back together and realizing that everything we did from that moment forward was us against, not against the world, but just us experiencing everything we wanted. All right, so you guys know how this is going to go. There's a lot of stuff back here that I want to go back to this idea of being shaken to the core because, you know, we talked a bit about this on the show before. I mean, some people, it takes trauma, but you guys didn't really experience trauma per say, like not, you know, yourselves, you saw it. And I, you know, this is something that I keep coming back to because I'm not quite sure we have an answer to it yet that satisfies me, like, you know, when we have guests on the unmistakable creative, when they're shaken to the core, something just dramatic happens to their lives, but I am wondering, and I'm still wondering, is it possible to be shaken to the core without having some, you know, tragic or terrible experience that completely screws up your life? Because I don't remember who it was. Somebody said you don't have to wait for your life to be a disaster to start changing it. And I really would love to hear your perspective on this. Well, the interesting thing is our life wasn't a disaster at all. We loved our lives. We had great friends and we had wonderful jobs and, you know, I loved what I did. It wasn't a function of that. To us, the issue is that what we wanted to do, those dreams that were so important to us that we always talked about them as we were going to sleep in the evenings together, we were off by ourselves walking, those dreams were always the elements that we kept pushing off. I think it, I mean, I love this question, Shrennie, because it's, I mean, boy, if you could answer this, if you could find that magic thing for people to just wake up and start following their dreams, get healthy, you know, all the things that they've been planning on doing. I mean, you would be a millionaire, a cabillionaire, but, but I think about this and everyone that I know that's been through an instance like this, it's always this backside wisdom. It's always on the other side that you look back and think, wow, if I had just known all this beforehand, if I didn't have to have that instigating incident, but, you know, for me, it was seeing my little brother at 35, laid out on a hospital bed thinking that he was going to die from a heart attack. It was seeing our good friend Maria with all of her beautiful curls shaved off of her head as she was laying there with a brain aneurysm, wondering if she was ever going to wake up and if she did, would she be the same? Those are the things that shook us to the court because immediately you think about your own life. And I just don't know in regular life, if those, not that those kinds of things have to happen, but I just don't know that you can have that dramatic of a wake up. You can certainly take positive steps going forward. But I think you have to, I think that you have to do that. I think that you have to ask yourself the question, what do I want to do most and what am I doing about it today to make it happen? And that doesn't, and so I don't believe that everyone has to be shaken to the core in order to change their entire life. I think that it's much easier if you start with much smaller steps, but you still have a goal to find, but to say, I have a dream and you don't have a deadline or any plans to make it happen, then take that dream and throw it out the window because you're never, it's never going to happen. If that wake up call never happens, if you don't get sick and you never take the plans that you needed, then your dream is just not going to happen. But instead, I'm more excited by the people that contact us and say, hey, I have a dream in three years, I want to go traveling around the world. I really didn't have a good reason why I started this, but I got inspired and I'm going to make it happen. They have a deadline and they have actions they take. That's more exciting to me because I think it's much more realistic in real life than waiting for that moment that spark that divine intervention, if you will. Well, it's kind of like writing, Srinney, you know this. You sit down every day and you're right and you're going to have words that come out. Some of them are going to be shit. Some of them are going to be great. A lot of them are going to be mediocre, but you have to sit down every day and write. It's the same thing with this transition that we're talking about in life. If you are working every day to make these things happen, even in very small steps, it's going to happen. You're going to move forward and it may not unfold the way you think it's going to, but it is going to unfold, but it's sitting back and wishing and waiting. I think that that is the saddest thing. I mean, I hope that people don't have to wait for a tragedy to wake them up, but I can't really judge them because that's what it took for us. Well, Warren, I think the two distinctions you're making are between a dream and a dream and a fantasy. I think that if we're not careful, we can confuse the two very easily. I see people who live in a place of fantasy. I have friends that have told me constantly about all the things they plan to do and all the things they want to start. Here we are five years later and some of those people are not even around my life anymore. Some of them I know will never start because it's always going to be a fantasy for them because of that. I think that there's no question that there's, I don't think there is a right answer to this. Like you said, I'd probably be very rich if I could figure this out, but it's a question I feel that bears repeating because I feel like I get different perspectives. I mean, I'm very fortunate to have somebody like Greg in my life when you look at kind of how he's lived. He's had that reminder and so you kind of see that and you're like, wow, I think that you're right. I mean, when you have somebody close to you who has experienced trauma, you can kind of almost get that wake up call through osmosis, but I think you're right. If you're sitting around waiting for divine intervention and somehow it happens to knock on your door when you're 95 years old and then you, you know, fall over and die the next morning. Well, what a waste. Yeah. And I think that's the difference is that you, you know, you and I think we owe it to everyone as friends to go out there and tell them, hey, what are you doing towards your dream today? And I think that we should hold our friends and family accountable when they come to us and say, I want to do X and you should ask them, what can I do to help you reach that? What are you doing today? Let's go out. If you want to start a business and you want to start a, you know, a rodeo clown school, let's go to some rodeos. Let's put them on the calendar. You've got to be their biggest cheerleader because that's one of the big challenges that come from making a change in life is being scared of sticking your neck out there and the fear that comes from being alone. But don't you think that that's part of that is they're saying that out loud. And when you challenge them on that, sometimes it's helping people realize that what they've been saying all along that they want, they really don't want, they're just saying it because it sounds cool or that they've said it for so many years, they haven't thought about it, you know? That's a perfect example of if you get to that point, then I think that you've made progress with them. They can let go of the fantasy that's, that really has been one as Shrini as you said. I think what we can focus on is helping people to see the difference, to make distinctions and then if it really is a dream, help them go forward and I think that's something that a lot of us could go out and do better of those people around us. And I think that then more people will reach their dreams. So actually you guys hit on something that is a personal hot button of mine, which is this distinction between what we want and what we think we want, right? Which you know what, the internet is a fantastic vehicle for perpetuating the confusion that comes in those two things. Because you know, it's really easy to sit down at like the world domination summit and listen to Chris Gillibo's story of, hey, I've traveled to every country in the world or even listen to you guys. I can tell you, I don't want your life. I think that would, I mean, traveling with a surfboard to every country and not having a home base is a giant pain in the ass. I've tried to live it. It didn't work for me. And I had to go experience it, but I think it's very easy to glamorize this life. And the unfortunate byproduct of that is this incredible confusion in, you know, what you think you want versus what you actually want. And I'm very curious to hear kind of, you know, what your lessons learned have been around that, what you guys have seen from other people as a byproduct because I know you guys get contacted from people who probably glamorize your lives. We get, we get notes all the time from people saying, I wish I lived your life. I wish I had your marriage. I wish this. And I'm thinking the whole time, you know, today's the day that, you know, my backpack got stolen on a train and Warren and I got into a huge fight and I've got a stomach bug and like, I mean, you're thinking of all these things that are so, you know, you're sick, whatever it might be. The fact is, is that there are opportunities that you need to look at and try them. And I think that the challenge is you need to be ready to say that you didn't like something. So if you go out and you try something new and you just don't like it, it's okay to say that you don't like it. But I find that a lot of people that we meet, what happens is they keep trying to explain to people that they're loving their life and they're hating it. I mean, it is shit for them. They hate the idea of being on the road, but the idea of admitting it to their friends and family is so embarrassing that they can't go out there and say that. Yeah. I think for us, you know, there are, there are good things and bad things about this life, just like everybody else's life and you hear these messages from people and it actually breaks my heart because I think I don't want anyone to want my life. I want them to want the best life that they could have. Don't want my life. My life is perfect for me, but it is not perfect for you. It would not fit you at all. But if you go do your own thing, but that's the key is is no way asking yourself the question what it is you want. Don't emulate someone else. Don't try to be like, you know, the exact life they have. Don't follow in their footsteps, but be inspired to ask the question of what you want. And I find that for me, that's the piece that I love when I'm talking to someone. I love when I talk to someone like you, Trainee, and you say, I would never want your life. That's fantastic because that means you thought about it. Yeah. Well, I'll come and visit you guys and have dinner with you and then I'll fly on a nice plane home person. Perfect. We're comfortable. But you like, but that's a point is that you've thought about it long enough to ask yourself the question, what is it I want? What is it that I don't want? And you've weeded out all the things that you don't want in your life and you said, good, I'm going to try something different. And you are a great example. You went off, tried surfing, you were down in Costa Rica and it just didn't fit for you. Admitting that is what I think so few people are willing to do because once they start living their dream, they can't imagine living a different one. Well, and I think we also glamorize, like you said, everyone else's life and people think that we're sitting here holding hands, typing on the laptop together to create books as we go. Yeah. We just have you guys and do each other's eyes and everything is wonderful. There's music playing in the background and that's not true. And we have to remind ourselves that other people are looking at our life that way. And when I say us, I mean, everybody listening, there are people that look at you and think that your life is something that it may not be. And I think it's really important for all of us to be real. I mean, I'm not going to lie and say that my life isn't great because it is, but I'm also not going to tell people that, you know, every day is fantastic and everyone should be doing this and try to talk it up to be more than it is. I think realism is something that we need to put out there so that people have better expectations and we're still yeah, we're still married. We're still a married couple. We fight. You know, we have nasty times. We have times where we don't have sex. We have times where we have, you know, great sex. I mean, it's just our life is a as a married couple. We happen to be doing it in a different way. And that type of is what everyone wants to focus on. But the truth is, is that we're, you know, we're a very happily married couple who has learned lessons through some very difficult times and created this life. It doesn't have to, it can apply to other people. There are elements that you can learn because there are skills that we use. But at the end of the day, you know, our life can be achieved if you want it, if you focus on the right things and create the marriage that you want, create the, go after the dream that you want. I mean, it's all there. You know, it's important to say the marriage that you want, excuse me, because a lot of people think that, you know, it has to be a certain way that you have to be a heterosexual couple who, you know, gets married and does this and does that. And one of the things that we talk about a lot on our show and our podcast is, you know, is the idea that you can create whatever you want. I mean, if you want to have a polyamorous relationship, if you want to have an open marriage, if you want to have all of those other things, there's no judgment. There's, I think the whole thing is that you, you have to set it up for yourself. You have to decide what's most important for you and your partner and go forward with that. No matter what, anybody else thinks, well, not that you'd probably advertise it anyway. But, but I mean, really, I think it's, you know, people think that because we're married, that we have this very conventional relationship and, you know, by all accounts, we probably do for the most part, but I think it's important to let people know that you can create the life that you want. And that goes right down to your marriage. That goes right down to, you know, to the way that you work, to what you do. I mean, all of those things are open. Everything is changeable. So we're going to get into this marriage piece quite a bit, even though I'm not married, you know, valuable lessons for me for the future. I would, I, this is like free counseling for me. Yeah, we're here to help. Absolutely. I don't know if to spend it on therapy. I can just talk to you guys. So a couple of questions, I want to go back to something before we get into the marriage piece. There was something else that you guys said was, you know, looking at the life you're living and the life you wanted to live. And there's a gap between those two things, at least when you started, you know, my friend AJ Leon calls getting there an evacuation plan, and I'm really curious, when you guys guide people through bridging the gap between those two things, I mean, obviously it's going to be different for everybody, but what does that look like? I mean, and what is, what is the key to bridging the gap without, without it turning into just a fantasy? Well, I want to hit on something first. I mean, we're actually looking at each other, holding each other back. So first I want to touch on something I disagree with in there, which is AJ's point, AJ's wonderful, but I don't agree with the idea of an evacuation plan, because you, we did not run away from a life. We ran towards one. Okay. It was not for us. We were not trying to get away from the life that we had. We just had painted a vision of what we wanted most in life and decided that's what we were going to go after. And so that's the first thing that I think is important is know what you're running towards, not what you're running from. Well, and I would say that the system that we used ourselves and that we continue to use because it's really effective and it's super, super basic. We're both very different people. So we focus on this in a different way. I focus on eliminating the negatives, all the things about my life that I don't like, whether that's a long commute. That was one of the things on my list, I remember when we first did it, you know, little things like that, even all the way up to big things, like I don't like the way you talk to me. I don't like, you know, how many times we're having sex a week. I don't like, you know, that you don't unload the groceries or whatever it was. But you have an opposite take on this. Yeah. So my idea is you start adding and trying new things to determine what sticks. So you determine, you've got this space, you've got this void. You've eliminated things in your life, you know, whether it be a long commute, a job you don't like or, you know, you don't like in the evening when you're just sitting down and watching TV for three hours. So you eliminate that and it creates time. That time can be spent trying things. Go out and determine if you like face painting, determine if you like to read more, determine if you like to weave whatever those things are that might give you joy, go try them, and then determine how to bring more of that into your life and make that part of the dream that you're looking towards. And so I think by eliminating things and by adding things in a little bit at a time, you start to create the life that you really want. It's basically making your life into a lab experiment and you're saying, I'm not exactly content where I'm at right now, I would like to be somewhere else and I think it's in this direction. So I'm going to start moving in this direction, which means I need to get rid of these things that are that are holding me down, whatever they are. And I'm going to start adding these other things in that which may or may not work. And that's the important thing. I think when you go into it, you have to realize that half the crap you try is going to, it's not going to work. It's going to be terrible. And you just have to be able to say, okay, I didn't like that. So we're moving it away, but everything is a learning experience. But a lot of the, what we typically get when we talk of going back to the bridge in the gap specifically is the number one, so we did a study of about a thousand people. And what we found was overwhelmingly the majority of people didn't like where they were, but didn't know where they wanted to be. And so it's not as easy as saying, I know I want to be, I want to be traveling the world in two years. It's always, I just don't like where I am. And that's where to us, the bridging the gap part begins is it's, you need to go out there and eliminate what you don't like because you've got to move a little bit closer or a little bit further away from where you are and start adding in and determining, do I like this? I would have never expected five years ago that we would be writing books and we would be spending a lot more time in Europe that I would be learning Spanish. These are all things I wasn't expecting, but I tried them. And some of them caught on and I am wildly passionate about it and it's become a part of my life. And I think you have to do that first to even determine what the gap is. But, you know, you were talking about not knowing that you were going to be here right now, here in Spain. But I think that's the thing is that you're moving toward a certain direction and so many people try to plan things out. We were the same way trying to plan that, you know, next year we're going to do this and then we're going to buy a car and then we're going to paint the house and then we're going to go on this great vacation, leaving the door open on those things and not mapping out your future. So specifically, I think leaves room for you to see what comes up in your life when you're trying all of these other things, when you're getting rid of the negative, opportunities are going to come up that you're never going to realize. I mean, just this year in December, we came here to Spain to house it. We were going to take care of someone's house and watch their dog while they went on vacation. While we were here, we bought a house, like that is crap that I was not expecting. But I think, you know, before we jump to that, I did want to finalize out though, the bridging the gap thing is that at some point in this process, as you start to add things, a dream is going to materialize. It is going to come out of something completely unexpected. And as Betsy said, you open yourself up to it so that you can see it. As soon as it becomes real and tangible, you know, you want to go and start a surf school in another country, then what you need to do is to put a deadline on it immediately. This is where the, in my opinion, this is where the true planning aspect comes from. The idea of the bridging the gap component, all that work needed to come first. Now it's put a deadline and take one action. Those two things need to happen on the exact same day. And then you need to plan out the, you know, exactly how you're going to get to this point, how much money you're going to need, what is the time that you're going to take, how are you going to make it happen. And some of those things you aren't going to have answers to for months, but just knowing it and knowing that you have dream is so powerful. Well, you know, and taking action, I think, is what makes those answers come. You can sit here and analyze it all day long and you're not going to know, but action will make it happen. Well, it's the difference between a fantasy and a dream going back to the earlier point. It's action. That's the one difference. Everything else is the same. You know, I'm going to say one thing about what you guys said. I think that there's this sort of mythical idea that you arrive at a destination that you have in your mind and that is a static moment that, hey, I'm here. There's nothing left to do. And the thing that I have realized after having, you know, things that I've really wanted to see happen, materialize, you know, and I think I've shared this before, I woke up after the instigator experience. And the next thing on my mind was, okay, I guess we got to start planning for next year. And I think that there's this idea that you just get to this moment. And I love, you know, even Greg had talked about this, he said, you know, what you forget is that whatever it is, a project or a business is a living, breathing thing. It doesn't just, you know, it's not static. There's no moment in which he said, if you stop feeding it, it dies. And I think the same occurs to your life and this life that you want to live is that you have to keep feeding with dreams. I actually don't think you ever bridge the gap. I think it's a, it's, it's, there's this idea that you do just finally bridge the gap and then you get to that one place and you stop. But I think as you guys have learned, new dreams start to reveal themselves, new possibilities. So the idea that you're ever going to bridge the gap completely, I think is a myth. I actually hope that we don't. I mean, think about this or anything about what you just said, that would be the saddest day of your life because you would have nothing else to look forward to. That actually just gave me shivers. I don't want that to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's do this. As you guys have heard me say a thousand times, let's shift gears a little bit. I want to start talking about the marriage piece a bit. And I want to go back to something that you said Betsy earlier, which was that in that moment, you said you felt more connected than you ever felt, but Warren, you had actually mentioned that up until that point, there have been some challenges with your marriage. Would you guys be willing to dive into some of this in a bit more depth? I know you probably don't get asked about this often. So I really would love to hear about this. We never get asked about this. Everyone thinks that we have a perfect marriage. If only they knew. We were delighted and no, no holds barred. All right. Let's get into it. I'm, I'm really curious. I mean, you know, what, you know, what are the, what are the moments that led to that? Would have been the molding moments and then, you know, what would have been your challenges? I mean, because I think that, that moment where you said you felt more connected than you ever had to me, there's something there that I felt needed to be explored. Well, I think we both started out, well, we still are very hard charging. We're both oldest children. We're both very ambitious and we, we want a lot of things out of life. And when you put two people like that together in a relationship, it can be explosive and hot and sexy and wonderful, but it can also be a living health. Yeah, extremely volatile, but we're also extremely different people. And that is the part, you know, we glossed over it with, with sex. You know, the first year or two was just, you know, it was great. You let lust lead the way love will come later, you know, kind of thing. And, you know, all the things we're working right. And then suddenly you have to start talking and you're having to have the conversations and we're fighting that we're fighting about the stupidest things. You know, I, the way I am, I'm a bit of a control freak. Really? Yeah. Dick is the word that Jesse uses the most. But in that process, what it is is that I have a way that I stack the dishes in the dishwasher. And if it doesn't happen my way, I get really freaked out. And so I would tell her I was freaked out. And then she would feel like I was controlling her, which is the worst possible thing I could have done. And she would lash out. And then I would lash out. We would get in these epic arguments. Well, I actually just stopped loading the dishwasher because I really didn't care about it that much. If you really want to do it perfectly, you can do it. But, but no, I think what happened is that we both got so ambitious with work. We both really worked a lot of hours. And we were focused on what we look like from the outside. And I think this is true for a lot of people. You want to have the right house and the right car and the right neighborhood and go to the right parties. And I think we got caught up in that. And so we were focused so much on the outside of our relationship that there was nothing on the inside. Yeah. And we would fight. You know, there were suspicions Betsy thought I was having an affair for a while. And so that created a ridiculous amount of attention because it's impossible to deny it once the thought has niggled its way into the mind. The issue is that the trust is suddenly broached. And I think that is one of the big challenges that it's faced is that as you get into that, how you have those conversations after that, all the things that were just difficult become almost untenable. But you notice, Randy, what it really boils down to is that we were both putting our ego first and our relationship second. And so we were always fighting to be the quote unquote winner of every argument, every situation, every everything. And you can't run a relationship that way and expect it to succeed. You have to put the relationship first or are it just going to disintegrate? I mean, it's always going to be this battle of wills, especially with two very opinionated people like us. And it reached a kind of reached the ultimate point for us where we had to make the decision. I mean, it was, do we do we commit or do we get divorced? That's the moment and we were we write about it in the book and we were in Denver in an airport, you know, just happened to be passing through two of us going in different directions for work. And we had a way we lived in Boston at the time to give you some say, yes, we're having a date in the airport, which is as romantic as it sounds. And what happened was, was that we looked at each other and realized that we had nothing left. We really just didn't believe that it was going to happen because we were, I wanted my career. She wanted her career. Our relationship was priority. Number four, we were fighting like crazy and we just drifting apart and it's so cliche. And I understand that. But we were talking, I think what, what happened after that day is, you know, recently, there was the Gwyneth Paltrow broke up with what's his face and it was all because of, you know, unconscious, what is a conscious and the method they're using to divorce is called conscious uncoupled. Which I think is ridiculous. You know, spend some time being consciously coupled and then you'll figure out exactly what you need to do. And that's what we committed to that day was consciously being aware of our relationship, making it the number one priority and changing our life around that versus letting our relationship kind of fit in the side. But you know, Serenity, it's just like we were talking earlier about those moments. You know, you have those moments of trauma and you look back and you learn from that. We had both been divorced before. So this was our second marriage. And so we knew, we knew, we knew what it looked like. We knew exactly what the oncoming train looked like. I mean, we could see our marriage disintegrating. It wasn't something that we could talk ourselves out of. And I think that was, you know, I guess a benefit for us almost that we knew that and that we could decide at that moment, you know, is this going to work for us or not? So a lot of stuff here, which, you know, obviously you guys should be used to that by now. Sparks something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from uncommon goods. The busy holiday season is here and uncommon goods makes it less stressful with incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list on one spot, gift that spark joy, wonder delight, and that it's exactly what I wanted feeling. 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That's H-Y-D-R-O-W.com code "ROW450." There are a couple of things here that I want to go back to. You know, it's interesting you brought up the idea of the fights and the ego being the thing you wanted to win. Nate Bagley here from Love Your Mentory, and he said that, you know, I asked him, I said, "You know, Nate, you went around the world documenting couples, not even around the world, but around the United States, talking to couples who had all been in love for insanely long periods of time." And he said, you know, the common thread, he said, with fights was he said that the thing that made it not disintegrate was he said they both didn't see a fight as something to win, but as every conflict has an opportunity to grow together, which I thought was a, you know, a profound way of looking at it. But you guys brought up a couple of different things here. One was the idea that, you know, there may be an affair going on, but I want to go back to the idea of, you know, what you said around that is that trust starts to go away. And what I'm curious is how you started to bring the trust back. Well, you know, it didn't come back for a long time, but one of the things that we did is I think that's when we made our list and we just said, what do we want our life to look like and what are the things that we have to do to make that happen? And some of it was really, really basic stuff, but we made this list, and just by doing that, I felt like we had some level of control back. Control is not trust, but some level of we've got this, we've got this thing under control. And we can start moving forward. And as we both work toward this lifestyle that we want, and we're both putting in the time and we're both doing the work, the trust starts coming back at that point. But I think until you both are able to go in and do those things and to admit that there's something wrong and to say, I'm going to do this to make it better, it's hard to get that trust back. You can't just ask for it to come back. And it's not an overnight, it's not an overnight solution. So what we had to do was we had to create our partnership first, right? Almost before the trust existed, we had to recreate that partnership, which means that we had to start planning our life that what we wanted, we started committing to regular communication, we started committing to how we were going to respect each other in the midst of it, how we were going to fight, we put rules around how we fought in order to control our natural tendencies, all these things that we needed to change because it didn't come naturally to us. So we put those things together, we started changing our life such that what we wanted most and eliminating again, eliminating all the things that were peripheral, that were not important to us. And I think through the course of that, what occurred is we became a team. We became a team because we were working towards a common goal, which meant moving, which meant changing jobs, which meant creating the exact surroundings that were important to us. By becoming a team, over the course of time, trust was rebuilt. And one of the things that we did that I think was probably the best thing that we've ever done and probably the most controversial is that we contractualized our relationship. So we are set up on a one year renewal policy. So every year on our anniversary, we decide whether we're going to renew this thing or not. It's not an I do till death do us part thing. And I think that knowing that we have the out that the other person has the out gives each of us more of an incentive to work harder toward the marriage. And I think that's one of the best things that we did for our relationship. Yeah. We just renewed it last April, this last April, we were that we did our 10th. So it's our 10th year, 10 year anniversary. We had. We're good to go into the left. Wow. See, this is why I wanted to have this conversation because I knew it would lead us down some interesting places. So one other question around sort of that period of your marriage. You mentioned that meeting in Denver being sort of an ultimate point in which it was kind of the the make or break moment. And for you guys, it wasn't the break moment. It was the make moment. And I guess for me, you know, having been through divorce yourselves, what's the difference between the people who make it through that moment and the ones who don't commitment to making it work? I think you have to say you have to ask each other and you have to ask yourself, are you willing to put in the effort to make this relationship work? And that may mean that it's going to take priority over your job, over your kids, over your pets, over whatever other factor out there. Are you ready to make the commitment to make this work and make it the number one priority? For me, I think it was a sense of vulnerability. You have to make yourself vulnerable and so does the other person. And to to have someone do that for you and to be able to trust someone else when you do that, that's a big thing. And if you can make that step, if you if you can go forward with that, I think your odds of making it through the troubles, the problems, whatever you're having are very, very good. But if you can't do that and you can't make that step, I just don't know how you can make it through. Yeah. So we sat down and had long conversations. It was a, you know, a lengthy process about what we needed to change. And we needed to change a lot about ourselves and how we were approaching our relationship, our fights, our, you know, our sex life, everything needed to be talked about. And we put it on the table and we would have conversations, almost so to the point where we were scripting and we were scheduling them. Okay. On Tuesday night, we're going to have a conversation about sex, right? Do we want more of it? You know, do we want less of it? What's it going to, what's that going to look like? Those, we needed that. We needed to broach every single subject and have an open conversation about it. And know that if we don't leave it all out on the table right now, and we get divorced, that is, that's so sad. But if you put it all out there and you still get divorced and you've done everything you can, then okay, at least we gave the effort. They were really uncomfortable conversations and we had to, we had to say things that maybe we didn't want to say out loud, admitting either to ourselves or to each other. But, but it's like Warren said, if you don't put all that out there, then you're going to be having those conversations in a much more ugly manner later when you're totally breaking up. I would rather go ahead and, you know, at least try it at that point and see if it's going to work. Yeah. And it was, again, we went through it. It was, I think it was touching go for a long time. It's easier to look back and see your success and judge it as that than to look back and sit there in the moment and realize how bad it is. But I, I think for anyone else that what they should do is it's all about and so cliche, but you have to have a conversation, but schedule it. If you're like us, just put it on the calendar and say, we're going to have to talk about these set of subjects and we're going to have to talk about it. It sounds so unromantic, but there is nothing more unromantic than divorce. So believe me, take the effort, make it happen. And I think you will see that you can work through these things and determine if there's a way forward. So you know, tons of more questions around this specifically around one thing that you just said and I've had this conversation with Greg a few times. You said, you know, it's easy to look back and see it as a success now. And in the moment, it's a bit harder. You know, I think that we can all kind of relate to that regardless of whatever situation and this isn't just a marriage specific question, but you know, you can look back at the circumstances of your life and you can say, it's easy to look back on them with wisdom. But what we all tend to do in the moment is panic. I mean, you know, I mean, my story about getting fired from jobs, God, I mean, greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I'm here having this conversation with you because of that. And I've done a lot of the things that I've been forced to do, which have been life changing because of that. But I can tell you when it happened, I panicked. I mean, I was in just a complete tailspin for weeks and I'm wondering if that's just the way it goes or is there a way to navigate our challenges in the moment? I think there is a way to navigate in the moment. And this is something that has come to me over the years. I certainly didn't know this back in the day, but I think about life now more as a flow chart than a series of right or wrong moves. So something happens to you. It's not a good or bad thing in and of itself. It's just a point on the flow chart and you either go, you know, A or B or, you know, whichever way the arrow goes, you make that decision. And it may be a good one or a bad one, but you can still recover from that, too. You can go A or B. You can make the next choice. And so I think if you look at your life as a flow chart and say, okay, this happened, what are my options? I'm going to try this. If that doesn't work, then I can do this. I mean, really, it's all about adjusting as you go. It's all about, I don't know, being part of all of this and just seeing what's available and going with it. And I think that's great because it fits in very nicely with how I view the world as well. And that's why we make a good couple, I guess. But for me, I've looked at life since I was 10 years old that to have no regrets. I always look forward. My dad died. He was killed by a drunk driver when I was 10. And I realized that I was sad about it. I was, of course, beaten up. And I mean, it was the worst thing that had ever happened to me. And it still is probably the single worst thing. But I look back at that moment now and I say that I would not be here with you if my father hadn't died. And that's a very cold and calculated statement. But the truth is, is that it's all in how I chose to live my life after that moment. I spent years making sure that whatever I did, he would have been proud of me, right? And I always think about that. But I don't think I wish he was here because I wouldn't be the man I am today. I wouldn't have had the relationship I had with my mother. I wouldn't have had the drive and ambition that I have today if he had been around. I am sitting here living the life of my dreams with the woman that I care about all because that moment occurred. But I chose to live for going forward, not to look back to all lamenting the fact that I didn't have more weekends with him or thinking about what could have been. I can't change that shit. It just happened. I now have to deal with it, internalize it, and move forward. And that flow chart that Betsy articulated is great because I love the idea that I could. I know that I can always move forward. Bad shit's going to happen, but I'm going to have a choice. And the only thing that I can tell you every day when I wake up, I'll never be looking back at where I came from and wondering if I'd take, if I'd taken the wrong path. Because I don't have that choice. We have to keep moving forward. And I think that's one of the ways that we can always look at our opportunities in life. What can I do today to influence my future? Because I can guarantee it. You can't influence your past. Yeah, I love the idea of a flow chart. And I think that it's brilliant. You know, I'll echo something. You guys have heard me say a thousand times on the show at this point, and it's not my words, but Greg's, you know, your temporary circumstances are not your permanent identity. But you know, I like the flow chart because it actually sets up my next question perfectly. You know, I mean, obviously you got past that point in your flow chart. So let's talk about where your flow chart starts to look like when you guys hit the road. I can't imagine all of a sudden you're worry free and life is just smooth sailing. I know it hasn't been because, you know, we're friends. We've known each other for a long time. But you know, these are the questions that I haven't asked you before. We've always talked about, you know, your online presence, your success and all that. Talk to me about the challenges of life as a married couple on the road. Well, you know, the day we left, we were going to Ecuador and we were leaving and the president, the police came in, they, well, basically it was a political coup. Yeah, it was political who they were trying to overthrow the government. And so what happened was we didn't know if we were going to be able to land in Ecuador because the main airport was closed in the capital. So we didn't know what was going to happen. At that moment, we looked at each other and said, all right, we're going to have to be a lot more flexible than we expected. And it created this bond between us because suddenly we were literally the, just the two of us, you know, we had to figure out how to make it happen. And we didn't have anyone to turn to. And so I think that's what occurred, is that immediately we were brought together in a bond from day one in order to overcome challenges. Yeah, it was one thing to be in Seattle and have all of our friends around us and supporting us. Oh, yeah, it's so great that you're going to be doing this. But once you leave the country and you're on your own, you really have only each other. You may not even speak the language in a country that you're going to. So it, I don't know, it's this deep, intense bonding that I can't describe any other way that not only is he my life partner, and I love him, but he's all I've got. Yeah, but you're on that, on that level, the flip side to that is when you're spending that much time together and you're in a foreign country and the water doesn't agree with you, you're also going to get to know that part of your partner. That's true. All the privacy goes away. You learn things about each other that you never, ever, ever thought you were going to do. Yeah, trying to ask, you know, what did your poop look like today, you know, trying to figure out if you're sick, you know, am I sick or you sick? Do we have something? Should we go get, you know, taking when you go with your wife and carry stool samples to the clinic because you have to get tested for a variety of parasites, that is when you know you've bonded. Yeah. It's not the, it's not the glamor side of romance, but I got to tell you it, it, it, there's something about it that says that it's us for good and for very, very bad. It's really, it's a nice bond. And then I would also, I would, I would also talk about the other part that I think is really important, which is we've learned a lot about each other that has helped us communicate. I'm thinking of Slovenia. Oh, yeah. We were in Slovenia, which is a beautiful, beautiful country. We were staying at this farmhouse with some friends and, you know, I've been telling Warren for a long time that I'm an introvert and he's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I never realized that I didn't explain it very well and he didn't ask for a better definition. He means shy to me. That's what I thought. And so I was having this conversation with my friend at the kitchen table and Warren walked through to get an apple or something and went away. That night we're laying in bed and he said, oh my God, I can't believe what I learned about you today. And I'm thinking, what, what could you have learned about me on top of a mountain in Slovenia? But, but what I realized is that to her and introvert means that she gets her energy from being alone, from kind of regressing and, you know, reading, being, being just by herself doesn't want to talk to me or anyone else, whereas I get my energy from talking to other people. At the end of this conversation, I am going to be amped up and ready to go out into the village and talk to people. Betsy, not a chance. She's done. She needs one hour to be out in time. But that, that happened because we were spending so much time together and we were knocking down all these weird little walls that we didn't even know existed. We were finding new avenues and new ways to communicate and to connect and then we would talk about it for hours in order to figure out what she needs. And now I know before this call, right, I gave her an hour by herself. She's just on her own. She's on this call. We'll have a great conversation and then she's going to need a little bit of downtime afterwards. But it took me eight years until I figured that out and we had to be on the road for two and a half of them. Well, you kind of making me sound like I'm, I'm socially backward or something. I'm not that bad. You're just, you're, you're an introvert, but I'm saying that that's how I internalize it. Remember that, I mean, I'm the logical one. All I do is I count out the hours so I can break up the day. I'm the anal one. So I got all kinds of problems, honey. But it is true when you find out how your, how your partner needs to process the day, how they need, where they get their energy from, what the things that they like to do. And you're able to kind of make that happen for them because like Warren is, I mean, he talks to every single person on the street. I mean, my God, it takes us, the store from our place is literally like a hundred feet away and it takes us like 20 minutes to get there, but, but I think, you know, even though it's not comfortable for me to be out that much, I have to be, I have to make myself be that way. And even though Warren can't stand it when we're in the same house and we're not talking, sometimes he just has to leave me the whole alone. And we both had to learn that and go a little bit against what our tendencies are in order to honor the other person and to allow them to live the way that they need to live. Even the way you work and think with Claude by anthropic, whether brainstorming solo or working with a team, Claude is AI built for you. It's perfect for analyzing images and graphs, generating code, processing multiple languages and solving complex problems. Plus, Claude is incredibly secure, trustworthy and reliable, so you can focus on what matters. Curious? 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At mintmobile.com/switch $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first-three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 GBP details. When you need meal time inspiration, it's worth shopping king supers for thousands of appetizing ingredients that inspire countless mouth-watering meals. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices, plus extra ways to save, like digital coupons worth over $600 each week and up to $1 off her gallon at the pump with points so you can get big flavors and big savings, king supers, fresh for everyone, fuel restrictions apply. Nice. Yeah. I love it. I mean, this is why I get, like I said, now, this is my way of getting like free couples therapy. I'm never having to deal with like an actual therapist. I mean, I'm learning. Oh, yeah. Much easier to learn this way than the hard way. I got to tell you. It only took us like 10 years, nine years of being together to learn that other one. So, yeah. Well, you know, I love it because, I mean, you guys have presented some really interesting perspectives, especially the intimacy and the challenge of being, you know, so together all the time and not having the space and the interesting things that come about. Because of that, I mean, you have dynamics that probably don't exist in other marriages. So I think that was part of the reason I wanted to spend as much time talking about this as possible because I think there was, there's a lot here that regardless of what somebody's married situation is, we can take away from. So, let's, let's turn this around and finish up with a bit more of a positive spin. You guys have had a lot of cool things that have happened as a byproduct of the way you've chosen to live your lives and the things that you guys have done. So, talk to me. I mean, I know that, you know, part of the reason we're here is that, you know, you have a new book coming out and you had a book coming out last time we were here. But talk to me about some of the other, in addition to the book, which you guys, I'm happy to let you plug. I want to kind of hear about some of the really positive byproducts of all this. Well, I think that we have had the opportunity to see parts of the world and have experiences that I didn't even know were possible. I mean, sitting in the middle of the goby desert, right, in the middle of the night, right, pitch black, we're in a family, we're staying with a family, and all of a sudden I start hearing Adele blared out at the top, you know, just this ridiculous deafening sound. And I'm thinking, "What the hell?" and we go outside and they have set up an entire light show and outdoor kind of concert so that the hundred people that are there, they're all Mongolians at a family reunion, are just partying. And they're dancing and they're doing their traditional long song, that was one of the most beautiful moments of kind of West meets East comes together into this moment of being accepted into their environment and asked to join in. Yeah, that was pretty cool to realize, "Oh, that's why they had the solar panels out on the rock someday long. It was so they could stay up all night." No, but the positive benefits, I mean, really, I feel closer to Warren now than I ever have. And we still fight, we still have problems, but we're in business together. So we're creating a life together, but we're also creating, you know, our living together. And that has brought us closer together and it's taught us, I think, a lot more about giving and receiving feedback because obviously you have to do that in a business and it's not always nice. It's taught us how to sort of put ourselves to the side of feedback. You know, you look at it, you respond to it, but it doesn't actually impact my self-worth. It doesn't impact the value of our marriage and our relationship. And that has been a wonderful, wonderful experience for us. And I think that as well, I feel like now I have my best friend, right, and she's traveling with me and we get to do everything together. And I can look to her and I know that we're always going to be there for each other. And that sounds incredibly smoopy and sappy and I really don't give a fuck. You know, because the fact is is that that's how I feel. I am just so deeply connected to this woman that when we go off and we do something, she can usually accept and knows how I'm going to react in that situation. And if it's going to be a bad situation, like a crowd, she'll help me through it. And the same thing, if there's going to be a lot of people, I'll help her and make sure that she's comfortable. And we've just kind of built this relationship such that there's a lot, not as much communication needed sometimes in those moments of stress and the moments of greatness when we are sitting there taking in a beautiful sunset or walking along the beach, we can just be happy being quiet together and I adore that. You know, I think that's one of the byproducts of the life we live. You were talking about how our marriage is probably a little bit different than other people's because of our lifestyle, we have to make a lot of decisions every day that other people don't have to. Where are we going to sleep that night? What are we going to eat? Oh, if we get sick, where can we go to get medical care? Where's the grocery store? Can we drink the water? Can we drink? I mean, really, it's an everyday kind of a thing that other people, they know where they're going to sleep at night. They have a kitchen full of food. They don't have to worry about those kind of things. And there is a fatigue that comes in your relationship when you have to constantly make these decisions and what we've learned over time is how to better balance that load. So for instance, one of us is in charge each month, so we flip that off. We call it co-pilot, our friends Kent and Canada told us about it and it takes the heat off of the other person, it allows them to relax a little bit in the relationship and it also allows the other person to take the lead and realize what it takes to make this thing work. I think it's made us both appreciate each other a whole lot more, I mean, aside from the logistical part which is really cool to have that. But I think that we also, we have realized that we're a team, right? And that's an interesting feeling as a couple. I often, I wouldn't have said that in the past, even before we went on this trip. Well, it's like Team Talbot, man. We're out to face the world and to go forward and to, you know, to make sure that we're always going to experience new things together, right? We don't like to be a part now. We like to do that because we like to share it. We like to be able to be in that moment and to be able to talk about it later. And I think that's something that's different that I would have ever expected when we left. I have an appreciation for the time that we have together and a longing when we're apart. Oh, that sounds so romantic. I'll let you long for my own part. I long for my yearn for you. Exactly, so this entire podcast is simply for play for me. Let's wrap things up. Why don't you guys tell us about the new book a little bit and then we'll close things up. Well, our new book is married with luggage, what we learned about love by traveling the world. And it goes from when things were not so great to us deciding to make this big adventure together. And some of the better lessons that we've learned along the way, kind of like pilot co-pilot that we were just talking about. And we share the funny stories, the experiences of how we've lived our life from the moment when we didn't think it was going to work until we have decided that we wanted to continue living on the road and we started writing. And so it's a wonderful love story of how we have progressed over time and what we plan on doing in the future. I actually wouldn't call it a wonderful love story. I'd call it a realistic love story because again, like we were talking about before, we don't want to sugarcoat this stuff. We want it to be real and we want people to realize what it takes to make a relationship work in these circumstances. And you know, there's a little dirt in there, probably more than I'm comfortable printing. Yeah, it's definitely an uncomfortable book for us to write, but we think it'll be enjoyable for everyone to read. Awesome. And you know, for those of you guys listening, I'll link that in the show notes as well. So Betsy Warren, I'm going to, you close with my final question and if you guys have been listening recently, you know that I've been ending with something a bit different than I had in the past. Our show is called The Unmistakable Creative and you know, we find, you know, I would say you know, we're on a mission to showcase, curate and connect the world's most interesting and creative people, people who are really unmistakable. And I'm curious based on your own experiences and the art that you've come across in your travels and the people that you've come across as, you know, long as you've been doing things on the internet, what is it that makes somebody or something unmistakable? I think it's following your own heart and doing what is important to you. And especially if you know that what you do can make life better for someone else. I think you are almost compelled to do it. And we see it all over the world. We see it in, you know, activism. We see it in everyday families taking care of each other and people volunteering to make schools run. Everything that you do when you put your heart and soul into it, you're going to make the world a better place and you're going to feel damn good about yourself when you do it. I think the, I think the corollary to that is they take action. The unmistakable people that I know have all taken action to do something. They are not, they are not dreamers. They are doers. They are not, you know, they don't have fantasies or they may, but they don't share them with me. But they are definitely people that have taken action to make big things happen and without that action that they would just be, you know, they would be unmistakable. Well, you know, we can all have good intentions and we can all say, I've got that book that I want to write. I've got a painting one day I'm going to do. I'm going to do great things one day. But unless you actually get out there and do it, it doesn't, it doesn't mean a damn. Well, that's the, that's the difference of unmistakable, I believe in my heart that all of us, you, Shrini, you are unmistakable because you have gone after what you dream of and you've changed that over time and you never stopped believing that there is something bigger and better. And that is what to me is the example. You set the example for the rest of us. Well, I appreciate that, Betsy and Warren, this has been absolutely phenomenal as I expected it would be and I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share your story with our listeners here at the unmistakable creative. We are delighted. Thanks, Shrini, for the time. Yeah. And for those of you guys listening, we'll wrap the show with that. You've been listening to the unmistakable creative podcast, visit our website at unmistakablecreative.com and get access to over 400 interviews in our archives. 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Being shaken to the core in order to make changes in your life
Embracing the life you want to have vs the one you created
A moment in marriage when a deep connection occurs
Why you must work every single day towards a dream
The difference between a dream and a fantasy
Distinguishing what we want from what we think we want
Why you can’t be afraid to admit that you hate your dream
The harsh realities of navigating a nomadic marriage
Running away from a life vs running towards a new one
Learning to trying the things that bring more joy to your life
The importance of not being too specific with your plans
Why you never want to bridge the gap between you and a dream
The dangers of focusing on the outside of a relationship instead of the inside
The moulding moment of Betsy and Warren’s marriage
Bringing trust back into a marriage when it’s lost
The uncomfortable conversations that take place when saving a relationship
Navigating difficult circumstances of your life in the moment
Running a business as a married couple

Betsy and Warren Talbot are a recovering, 40-something, Type-A couple who learned that living large is not necessarily living well

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