The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Redefining what it Means to be a Man with Brett Mckay

A visit to his local bookstore, and his frustration with quality of the men's magazines on the bookshelf frustrated Brett Mckay. In an effort to change the conversation around what it means to be a man, he was inspired to start The Art of Manliness which has become wildly successful web site with a focus on helping men be better husbands, better fathers, and better men.

The motivation behind starting the Art of Manliness
Why Brett looked to men like his grandfather for inspiration
Developing the awareness to recognize opportunities
The power of writing your ideas down
A look at a very stringent creative and editorial process
The thorough research process behind Art of Manliness
Why Brett takes a workman approach to the craft of writing
A look at the history and evolution of masculinity
Why our definition of manliness is self centered
The negative media narrative around manliness
A look at how Friday Night Lights creates a positive role model for men
Finding a balance between confidence and humility
The importance of recognizing men when they're at their best
A Look at the Classical idea of Manliness and potential byproducts
Challenges of success and growth
Why Brett tends to be incredibly protective of his readers
The reason Brett has resisted the temptation to grow into other areas
The moral code that Brett abides by on a regular basis
Why depth is a critical aspect to becoming unmistakable

The Art of Manliness is authored by husband and wife team, Brett and Kate McKay. It features articles on helping men be better husbands, better fathers, and better men

The motivation behind starting the Art of Manliness
Why Brett looked to men like his grandfather for inspiration
Developing the awareness to recognize opportunities
The power of writing your ideas down
A look at a very stringent creative and editorial process
The thorough research process behind Art of Manliness
Why Brett takes a workman approach to the craft of writing
A look at the history and evolution of masculinity
Why our definition of manliness is self centered
The negative media narrative around manliness
A look at how Friday Night Lights creates a positive role model for men
Finding a balance between confidence and humility
The importance of recognizing men when they're at their best
A Look at the Classical idea of Manliness and potential byproducts
Challenges of success and growth
Why Brett tends to be incredibly protective of his readers
The reason Brett has resisted the temptation to grow into other areas
The moral code that Brett abides by on a regular basis
Why depth is a critical aspect to becoming unmistakable

The Art of Manliness is authored by husband and wife team, Brett and Kate...

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Duration:: 54m
Broadcast on:: 14 Apr 2014
Audio Format:: other

As you probably noticed, this month we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose. Explaining football to the friend who's just there for the nachos, hard, tailgating from home like a pro with snacks and drinks everyone will love, any easy win. And with Instacart helping deliver the snack time MVPs to your door, you're ready for the game in as fast as 30 minutes, so you never miss a play or lose your seat on the couch or have to go head to head for the last chicken wing. Help game day favs on Instacart and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three gross reorders. Offer valid for a limited time, other fees in terms apply. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big row as man, then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit that's linkedin.com/results. All right, I'm Ryan Reynolds and recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation, they said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts, they said what the f*ck are you talking about, you insane Hollywood f*ck. So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at Mint Mobile.com/switch $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month, new customers on first three month plan only, taxes and fees extra, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes of details. I'm Srini Rao and this is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast, where I speak with creative entrepreneurs, artists and other insanely interesting people to hear their stories, learn about their molding moments, tipping points and spectacular takeoffs. A visit to his local bookstore and his frustration with the quality of the men's magazines on the bookshelf, frustrated Brett McKay. In an effort to change the conversation around what it means to be a man, he was inspired to start the art of manliness which has become a wildly successful website with the focus on helping men be better husbands, better fathers and better men. Today's episode of the Unmistakable Creative is brought to you by FreshBooks, the simple accounting solution for business owners who want to skip the headaches of tax time, no more hunting for receipts, digging for invoices or going through records one at a time. When I started working as a freelancer, my process for invoicing clients was disorganized, it was manual and it was messy. Then I discovered FreshBooks. With a click of a button, I could have an invoice to a client and get paid faster. It was kind of a no brainer. For a limited time, you can try it free for 60 days, that's two months to see how much more efficient it will make the process of invoicing clients. You can check them out at GetFreshBooks.com and when you get to the "How did you hear about a" section, make sure you enter the words "Unmistakable Creative" and remember when you support our sponsors, you support our show. Brett, welcome to the Unmistakable Creative. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's my pleasure. We had you here back in the days when we were called Blogcast FM to talk to us about your site, The Art of Maliness. Obviously, that was almost three years ago, so a lot has changed since then. We have a ton of new listeners. Tell us a bit about yourself, your background, your story and how that has led you to doing everything that you're doing today. Sure. That's a pretty broad question there, but I grew up in a suburb of Oklahoma City, had a pretty average American life for a guy, played football, all that stuff. How I got started with The Art of Maliness was when I was in law school, this was back in 2006 or 2007, my second year of law school. One thing I'd always do whenever I'd go to borders or barns and nobles to kill time, I would just go to the men's intersection of the magazine rack. So you have men's health, men's fitness, Esquire, GQ, Maxum, FHM, I guess stuff whizz around then too. I would just look at the magazines and not buy anything, which is probably why borders went out of business because people like me did that. But when I was in my second year of law school, I was just sitting there looking at the headlines. I just had this for a Piphany, not a Piphany, Peripatiel, I don't know, whatever. It's the same thing every month with these men's magazines. It's always like how to get six pack abs, how to get hooked up with three chicks this weekend. Here's a babe telling you what she likes and why do I care what this supermodel likes. I'm married, doesn't interest me, and selling a lifestyle that I certainly couldn't afford as an in-depth law student. So I've been blogging for a little bit before this time I had a blog called The Frugal Law Student, where I just kind of, it's like a personal finance blog and law school advice study tip blog, and it done moderately well, not insanely huge, so I had some experience with blogging, and I decided, you know what, I want to start the men's magazine that I want to read. I like this stuff, so I sort of brainstorming, had my moleskin pocket notebook, and I started thinking of ideas and what I'd want, kind of articles I'd want in a men's magazine, and I started thinking about names for the men's magazine or a blog that I would want to add one, like I had read this book called The Manly Arts, which is about bare knuckle boxing in the 19th century, and so I sort of like came, I was really excited and I told my wife, and the time my wife really didn't get blogging, she thought it was kind of, she read blogs, but you know, the idea of blogging was sort of, she's like, okay, why do you do this? I was like, I got another idea for a blog, she's like, you got to be kidding me, like, you know, you're in law school, you have the Frugal Law Student, you know, focused on law school, you know, you got to get a job after you graduate, but, you know, this is a really great one, and like, she got really excited too, she's like, that's a great idea. So I started brainstorming ideas, like, I think I'm going to call it The Manly Arts, you know, that sounds too good, and I was like, how about the Art of Manliness, I'm like, oh yeah, that's great, so that's how the Art of Manliness was coined, and yeah, I bought the domain, installed WordPress, and I really didn't do anything, this is like fall of 2007, I couldn't do anything because I was in the middle of law school finals, and so I waited until Christmas break, and installed WordPress, did the whole design by myself, which sucked because I wasn't a web designer, but yeah, the idea of the Art of Manliness was just basically, I'm a big sucker, not a sucker, I'd say I'm just inspired by the past, right? I love men, I mean, I'm just really inspired by men like my grandpa, you know, World War II vet, Forest Ranger, and just a really cool guy, and I know like other men my age that I've talked to, like they feel the same way about their grandpa's, they're like, yeah, my grandpa's the coolest guy in the world, like he just knows everything, he just seems very confident, and I mean, yeah, I want to be like my grandpa. So I was definitely, when I started the site, I wanted to sort of have that sort of nostalgic feel, so yeah, when you visit the site, it's got hardwood, it's got like the wood background and all our photos are typically vintage, and we just talk about stuff that, you know, I was always drawn to as a boy and as a young man, like what it means to be a man. So like straight, you know, shaving like in a traditional way with like safety razors, straight razors, dressing well, but not in like a very, you know, very traditional way. I'm not very fashion forward, I'm all about just, you know, the blue, the navy suit, the charcoal suit, looking well, but not having to be fastidious about it, because that's like, that was how my grandpa was, right, he dressed well, but wasn't, he didn't spend hours in front of the mirror trying to, you know, get everything right. My grandpa wasn't, wasn't peacocking, we should say that. And then just sort of like skills, right, that I wish I knew, but I didn't, for some reason didn't acquire while I was a young man. So things like, you know, building fires without matches, changing the oil in your car, you know, saddling horses. I mean, this is like stuff that like your grandpa, like you knew, right? So I started it, and I didn't think it would, I didn't think it was going to be a business. Like I just started as more of a passion project, and it just blew up right away from the kick. I just shared it with my readers on the Frugal Law student, and it just started getting passed around. And pretty soon I had a pretty big following, and I was like, man, this could be what I could do for a living. And yeah, so I mean, here we are, I guess like we're almost, we're hitting five years into this, or six years, and we have 13 million page views, you know, tens of thousands of email subscribers, lots of, and just a huge following books that we've published based off of the site, and this is what I do for a living now. So yeah, I graduated law school, and I didn't take the bar exam, and I write about being a man. Cool. All right. So a lot of stuff here that actually, you know, is really interesting. I want to go back to the very beginning, you know, you talked about walking in and having an epiphany, and you know, this is a conversation that I've had with a few people, and a question that I've had is that some people are aware of when those moments occur, and others are not, and then of course, you know, there's, there's one thing to, you know, know that, hey, holy crap, I just had this epiphany, and it's another entirely to do something about it. So I mean, I'm curious, is there something that you think people can do to develop that kind of awareness? Because I think people miss opportunities around them all the time. I mean, you could have walked into borders that day and been like, uh, Maxim sucks. This sucks. Screw it. I'm out of here. But you didn't want, you know? Yeah. I mean, just writing stuff down. Like I think, um, I don't know, just the act of writing things down does something. Like your, your brain begins to trust you. I don't know. I know this is like completely woo-woo stuff, and I completely popped at that, right? But I think your brain starts to trust yourself that like, yeah, you're going to actually do something with these ideas that I'm spitting out at you. So yeah, I just wrote everything down, like I, I wrote ideas down all the time and a lot of them like they didn't go anywhere because like I was like, yeah, because like later on you're just like, you review your ideas like that sucks, that sucks. But you know, um, when I, I just, I don't know, I felt good about the art of manliness. I was like, this is, this is cool. I think this could be, and, and, um, I know if I wasn't in that habit of like capturing ideas and like thinking about them, um, I probably wouldn't have that whole idea of the art of manliness probably wouldn't have, uh, born any fruit. Is that something you still do today? Honestly, no, um, oh, it's, it's pretty bad. I mean, I, I, uh, I mean, I do capture ideas like when I'm surfing the net, like I'll use Evernote, you know, whenever I see read an article, you know, save that to my notebook. Um, but as far as just like when I'm out and about, because honestly, like I'm, I'm in, I'm in my house most, I'm inside my house most of the day because I'm working and then I got kids. Um, so like having a pocket notebook with me, um, I don't know, it's not that useful. And also I have my, I have my smartphone too. So like, I just use that. So I mean, I do, but not as I was pretty intense about it at the time, because like, this is like when I had first discovered life hacker and like all these life hack blogs when they were for starting out and like, I remember I just, I went crazy on that stuff like, this is amazing. Um, I just did everything, uh, full tilt. Um, so yeah, I was really intense about writing down ideas, not so much anymore. It's definitely a habit. I need to get back into. Well, you know, it's interesting. You bring it. I mean, the reason I ask that question, uh, is, is because it, like I, it's funny, our friend, AJ Leon says that, you know, he can trace back almost any project that he's shipped, which he's shipped amazing projects to the pages of a notebook. And it, you know, it's funny because I've been going through my old moleskins. I mean, I have them stacks. I mean, it's funny because we've gotten so digital, we have smartphones and I, you know, here I am, I'm like going back to pen and paper, uh, in a way that I never have before and just really embracing it. And what I found is it does something really different for your creativity, but I think that the really bigger sort of point that you made was writing down, even though it sounds very kind of new agey is that it does get, that something happens when you get something down. I don't know what it is. Um, I can't put my finger on it, but I mean, I, I can go back and look at a lot of the things that I see physical manifestations of in my life and I can go back and look into the pages of a notebook. And I'm like, wow, I wrote that down like two years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And these things happen. Um, you know what? I want to talk a bit about your entire creative process if you don't mind because, uh, I mean, you guys produce stuff that is at a level that's honestly above what many people do. I mean, it's, it's, I mean, you pay, you take your craft very seriously. And it's something I've always noticed about the way you guys do everything you do. It's not, it doesn't seem, you know, poorly put together. It looks like a lot of care and attention has gone into detail in terms of the content you publish in terms of the way you guys show up. And I'd really love for you to talk about your creative process for how you produce such high quality work. Sure. Um, so it helps that often times my wife and I collaborate on content together. Um, you know, two heads are better than one. Um, but yeah, you're right, like we take a lot of pride in the content we put out. Um, you know, I feel like with a lot of people who are producing content, they just, they're just trying to get stuff out there as fast as they can to put it out as, you know, as much as they can. Um, and we're geared towards like, we want to be as thorough and as useful as possible with our content. So we, yeah, we plan things out, uh, quite ahead in advance and, um, you know, if there's a topic that we want to hit, uh, we will start reading about it, just reading just, you know, not just one book, but like four or five, six books on the topic, um, you know, months in advance and, uh, you know, start taking notes, um, and outlining things and started hashing and having a back and forth conversation. And then, uh, one of us will, uh, you know, typically take the lead on a particular post, they'll write something up, um, then they'll spit it back to the other person, um, they'll add their fine tunements to it, their, their input into it, and it just goes back and forth until it gets done. Um, and, uh, so that, that's the creative process as far as producing content. So, you know, we, we, you know, sometimes we can spend, um, just like a, a few days on a, on a post, but oftentimes there'll be, you know, weeks or even sometimes months of, you know, work and research and organization, um, into a post. Um, and yeah, whenever we, and we, we try to, um, pass it on to our contributing writers, like, you know, look, we're not looking for like just a 500 word article, we just sort of spout your opinion on something, your thoughts about something, um, because no one cares. And I think in the end, like no one, I don't know, I mean, I, I don't care what some person's opinion. I want some, like, I want some, I want to, when I read something, I want to see that someone put thought, uh, analysis, um, and, and research into it. Um, and so yeah, we, we, we thankfully found people who feel the same way about us, that we do when it comes to regarding putting out content that doesn't say that every once in a while, we'll like just spit something out like in a day because, you know, that's sort of like in depth through, uh, writing and research, like it totally takes a toll on you. Um, and so every once in a while, you have to do something fun, um, so, you know, we'll might do a whole blog series about the history of, you know, masculine honor. And that was just a crazy, uh, that was, that was like crap in a pineapple, putting that, that out. But, you know, then we'll do something like, you know, how to throw an illustrated guide to how to throw a puncher, how to survive falling through the ice, which, you know, doesn't take that much time to put together, but it's, it's fun. Um, so yeah, that's the creative process. And yeah, we're always capturing ideas, um, what's amazing whenever you research like we do is as you're researching for a particular, you know, for, for a one post, you, you get ideas for other ones. I mean, we, I mean, seriously, I don't think we'll ever get to all the content we want to get to, um, cause we just don't have time, uh, to be honest, uh, cause we have like this notebook full of I, you know, just topics and, um, posts we want to hit, um, that we found. So that's, that's the creative process for us. It's very, we're very, um, uh, workmen like we're not, you know, we're not really into the whole, um, oh, inspiration struck me. So I'm going to write this thing at three o'clock in the morning. It's, we're very, I mean, it's, it's, I think comes from our backgrounds, like my, I have, you know, I have the law background. So, you know, you're very, when you researched, uh, law review articles or researched for, uh, a client, uh, you had to be very meticulous, thorough. My wife, um, you know, has her master's of religion. She's very academic. So she has that same sort of, uh, workmen like mentality when it comes to researching and writing. That's interesting. You know, I, I don't think I've ever talked to anybody who, who approaches the creative process in such a sort of methodical way. I mean, I think everybody has their rituals for sure. Um, but I mean, you're right. You're very much workmen like about it. I, you know, I'm really curious. I mean, you, you see people around the web or a, in general, like when you look at any artist of any sort, uh, like masters of their craft stand out, uh, like, you know, and always, it doesn't matter what the craft is. And I'm really curious. I mean, if you're guiding somebody on this path of mastering a craft, I mean, what, what advice do you have for them and how do you balance the, the sort of workmen, uh, mindset with sort of the right brain, you know, creativity and, you know, the, the, the signature, the thing that actually does make you unmistakable. Yeah. Uh, that's a great question. Um, so the advice to get them is like, yeah, develop that work mentality, uh, because there's so many people who don't have it. And that's, I think why a lot of people fail because they just think that, you know, in sport, you know, the muses will just come to them and they'll magically just produce great stuff, but it doesn't work that way. You have to like, you have to put in the work and then that's when the, that's when the magic happens. Um, and as far as, you know, bringing that right brain stuff, the right brain mentality, I mean, you just got to have fun with it, like not take yourself, uh, too seriously and not take the topic too seriously at times, you kind of be detached from it a little bit. Um, so you can find, uh, places where you can have fun and, you know, inject some humor or, um, just get creative. Um, cause I know a lot, I know there's some people who just, they take things so seriously that they, they can't find rooms to be playful with it or experiment with it. So, um, yeah, uh, don't take yourself too seriously. Um, let's, let's, let's, let's shift gears a little bit. I mean, let's, let's talk about this whole concept of, of the art of manliness. Cause I, I think there's a much bigger sort of narrative here that then, you know, building a popular men's magazine, but I think in a lot of ways, I mean, what you guys do is a social commentary about what is going on with masculinity. And I think this is the more interesting part of your story to me. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, I also started the site because look, I, at the time I was 25, 24 years old and I was married and I, I felt like, you know, I looked at guys that were my age and like they were just, a lot of them were just like, you know, there's, I don't know, they're, they're like still in high school, right? They were, they weren't really. And you know, there's all this commentary by like why that is and whatever. And, you know, instead of, and what we try, when we try to do the site, instead of like talking about the problems with, of men and what's wrong with men, I mean, I'd rather just focus on it. Here's what you can do. And you know, but occasionally we will talk about the history of masculinity. Cause I think that's important to know, cause a lot, a lot of people just think like, you know, what it means to be a man in America, it's always been the same and it's the same everywhere you go. And it's this, it was the same in 1800 as it is now, but it's, it's not true. And so yeah, we'll, we'll explore, you know, the history of masculinity, what, what it means to be a man. But we try to do it in a way where, you know, we're not, I'm not trying to be controversial. And I know a lot of people just, they like to do that. They like to get in the flame wars with feminists and whatever. And that's just not my stocks, I don't think it's productive at all. So yeah, I mean, like what we're trying to do on the art of manliness is bring back this, what I call it as a classical ideal of manliness. What I mean by that, that is the, the idea that the manliness that, that started with the ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans and really was with us in the West until about the 1950s, 1960s, when a lot of the, you know, with the social changes we had during that time. And what I mean by the classical idea of manliness is, you know, if you asked someone like on the street, like what an ancient room, or even in America in the 17th, you know, the 19th century or someone in the 19th century, like what does manliness mean to you? And they would say things like, Oh, well, being a man or manliness means, you know, being a man of virtue means being, you know, having strength, having, you know, not just physical strength, but also moral and intellectual strength, courage means having honor, it means being industrious, it means providing and contributing, that was another important, like it was being a man in ancient Rome and even in America until, you know, fairly recently, being a man meant you had to contribute to society. You had to be engaged in the public sphere and not think only about yourself. And to me, that's just, that tastes good, that idea of manliness. And now when you ask what, you know, guys, like what does it mean to be manly, like they'll say dumb stuff like, Oh, being manly means like sports and playing video games and like eating meat. And it's, it's very manliness and today is very self-centered. I feel like very narcissistic. And so we're trying to bring, kind of re revive this idea of manliness being something more positive instead of sort of the, what we, sort of the, I guess it's more cartoonish, what we have today. Well, I mean, I think the media narrative around it is really, you know, what drives so much of it to be what it is today. Yeah, I mean, you're right, I mean, that's a, that's a big problem. We've addressed that a few times on the site. What I think is interesting is in, I mean, just in the, since I started the site, you've, it's been interesting to see how, how much manliness is like in the media, right? And how like, what's wrong with men, what's going on with men and why are men this way? And then like you're seeing, you know, even sitcoms that are like just about men. And you're seeing like this whole, like, the whole, there's like, just like businesses that are geared towards where like this whole manly man thing, like, there's like mustache waxes, like, you know, flint, you know, work where and like, you know, I don't know, just, it's just like it's crazy what's happened. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from uncommon goods. The busy holiday season is here and uncommon goods makes it less stressful with incredible hand pick gifts for everyone on your list. In one spot, gift that spark joy, wonder delight, and that it's exactly what I wanted feeling. They scour the globe for original, handmade, absolutely remarkable things. Last year, I found the perfect gift for my nephew, periodic table building blocks. 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There's like, I mean, here's a perfect example. One thing we talked on the site is that in the media, men are often portrayed as these buffoons that can't do anything, you see them in commercials and in sitcoms. But I've been pleased to see, is like television shows that portray men in very positive ways. Like, one of my all-time favorite TV shows was Friday Night Lights. I mean, just an awesome show. It was just about, I mean, it was a football show, not about football. And there's just, I think it gave such great examples of men, young men and men, trying to do the right thing. Right. And I just love it. I mean, coach Taylor is the most, like, I want him to be my coach, I want to meet coach Taylor. And it was just great to see the other male characters in that show struggling, right, with problems and issues, but trying to figure out, you know, in the end, like, how to be the best man they can be. Yeah. Well, yeah. I love that you're about a coach, Taylor. It's funny. I think I remember reading somewhere. It might have been an interview, you know, on this show called Off Camera, where, you know, somebody was interviewing Michael B. Jordan, the guy who plays Vince Howard. Yeah. And he was saying, you know, he's like, coach Taylor, basically. He's like, not only does he, everybody's coach, you know, not the guy everybody wants as their coach, but like, every woman wants that guy as their husband. Yeah. There's something about him that really, I mean, you're right, I mean, he, like, that, you know, if that is how you are portrayed as a man, you'd be like, you know, that's something I'd be completely proud of and completely okay with. Yeah. For sure. I mean, like, yeah, he, what's amazing when I love about coach Taylor is like, he, he doesn't, that doesn't have it figured out, right? And like, there's this, in those moments where it's just like, he doesn't know what to do with his, like, you know, his kids and like these, you know, his football players that have these problems, but he's got like this moral code, right, that he follows and he sticks to it, no matter what. And, and he's, and he definitely has like a, I mean, he has a confidence. I mean, there's, there's, yeah, he, at times is, you know, unsure, maybe he, he feels a bit of fear, but he has like this confidence in himself and in those principles that if he just puts his confidence in those, like, everything will be okay, no matter how ever, however it turns out. I think, yeah, men want that, like respect that and like women, I find that attractive because there's not a lot of guys like that. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I think that they, that, you know, are, are the remainder of the media narrative causes you to take that too far, like in the, in the wrong direction almost. How do you mean by that? Well, I guess, you know, like you said that he's confident, but there's a humility to him as well. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the thing. Like there's, there's definitely a humbling, like I think a lot of, I feel like a lot of young men, uh, miss that they just think like they have to be like alpha, which means like you get to make this like confident or like, not confidence, like cocky, um, prick, right? But I don't know. There's something about just like the, the quiet confidence that, uh, I think is more, to me, more inspiring, um, and, uh, yeah, just, it's just definitely more inspiring. Well, let me ask you this on that note. I mean, how do we get back to that, uh, you know, considering what we're seeing in the world around us and, and, you know, our media, our influences are constantly shaped by exactly what you're talking about, uh, like bling and, you know, and crazy music videos and all that stuff. I mean, how do we get back to that sort of, you know, what would you call it effectively, the classical idea of manliness? Well, I mean, I think one thing you can do is, I mean, like, we're, that's what we're trying to do on the site is trying to help show people what they can do to have that. Um, but also, um, you know, recognize it, right? Whenever you see, um, a young man, right, that's why I think it's so important for like white mentors are so important. That's why you talked about on the site, like young men need that validation, right? They're out, they're doing the right thing and they need an older man to be like, yeah, that's keep doing that. That's great what you're doing. Um, because right now I think a lot of young men don't get that. And in the absence of that, they're just going to follow their peers and just do whatever their peers thinks is cool. Um, the other I think I think you can do is just, I mean, like what we're trying to do, like look to the past, right? I mean, and, and I want to be upfront, like, you know, there's a lot of things about the past when it comes to masculinity that's not very positive. Uh, we, we, we don't look at the past with like rose tinted glasses for sure. Um, but I think there's a lot to be learned from that, uh, from the past. Um, and it, when it, when it, when it, when it comes to being a man. Um, so like study, you know, great men from history and see how they, um, grappled with problems and what they did in their development, um, in the becoming men. And then also look at, uh, you know, the mistakes that they made and see how you can learn from those, uh, those mistakes. Um, I mean, that's what I think you need, like mentorship, um, looking to the past. And finding inspiration there and, um, acknowledging, um, when young men, you know, when men do things that are, are right, like give them praise. I mean, that's one of the problems we have in our society today is that we often like, um, just like we often go after men when they're at their worst, um, but we hardly recognize when they do things that are positive. Um, and I think that's, I mean, that's just, it's the, it's the nature of the beast with the media is cause, you know, it's the whole, if it bleeds, it leads thing, um, and negativity cells. Um, but I, I think we need to counter that. So I don't know, I think if more people who tweeted or Facebook or shared something about a story that of a, of a man who did something who kind of lived up to this classical ideal of manliness, that's awesome. That needs to be out there in front of people, uh, more often. Yeah, you know, I, I really appreciate that you're bringing this perspective to us. Uh, it's one that, you know, I really, it's a refreshing one because I think that you're right. I think the implications for it and the byproducts of it, they seem like they would only be positive. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, that's what I think. So, yeah. Well, talk to me about, I mean, have you, have you had stories of people who've been transformed as a byproduct of the site? Like, I mean, you've seen people go from like, like an evolution of their own and I mean, for you, have there been molding moments, uh, throughout this entire journey of building this? Okay. Well, to that, to that first question, yeah, I mean, one of, that's the best thing about running the site. I mean, that's like, it's what we, what we, we, that makes our day, makes our week, makes our month, whenever we get letters, I mean, people hand write us letters, telling us how the site has changed their life. And it, I mean, it's amazing that every, I mean, the, every story is different, but they all sort of had the same, you know, outline, right? Like, guys who just, they were in the, the, the, the lowest of the lows, right? They, maybe they got dumped, maybe they lost their job. They had a dad that died, um, and we had, you know, a young man who, you know, they got diagnosed with cancer and, you know, their dreams of doing something were just totally taken away from them and, um, they're just, they didn't feel, they didn't, they just felt like they weren't capable of doing anything great and they're just in the dumps. And then they find, find the site somehow, right? And they start reading it and they just talk about how it's changed their life, like just doing small things that we recommend, um, on a, on just a regular basis, um, just help them get out of that, that whole and gave them the, I don't know, the, the motivation, the tools they could, that they needed to, um, build a better life for themselves. So yeah, we get that all the time. I mean, it's just, it's a may, and that's, that, that's why you do it. That's why we're doing it is, I mean, the help, help these help men out there, um, become the best men they can be, um, so yeah, I mean, I, I got a, I got this like giant, uh, folder full of all these letters, um, and as far as meat as, uh, it goes for me. Yeah. I mean, definitely, um, it's, it's, um, it's molded me. I mean, I've made, you can, in the, the silly sense, I've learned lots of skills because of the blog because if I, if I needed, if I was going to write about it, I had to know how to do it. So I had to go out and learn it. So, you know, I've learned how to do all sorts of cool manly things because of it. But, um, on a more serious note, um, it, yeah, it's, I, you, you can't help, um, to be a better, better man after reading biographies of, you know, just really great men doing just good things, um, in their own lives and for, and for their community around them and then writing about it and then writing about how, you know, just principles, um, to live by you. You know, you want to, you know, if you write about it, you want to do your best to, to live by it. So, um, yeah, I mean, it's definitely, uh, shaped me into a, a better man because like, you know, you, you want to be, it really holds you accountable, uh, with your behavior when you're out there researching and writing about that because you don't want to be a hypocrite, right? Um, it's not to say that I am, I'm not like this paragon of manly virtue, right? I mean, I'm, I'm, it's a, it's a, it's a process that I'm, I'm on there. I'm on the, I'm on the trail and journey with everyone else. Um, but it definitely has helped me become a better man. You know, so interesting question comes from me from that. You know, I love that you have people who hand write letters to you. I think that's incredible, uh, in an increasingly noisy and crazy world in which everybody is addicted to their smartphones. I guess for me, the question that comes from that is, I mean, how do you create that kind of a connection with your art? Like, how do you develop that connection with the receiver, uh, whether it's through a book, whether it's through a movie, I mean, what is it about, you know, art that creates that? And how do you, how is that? Is that something we can do? Is it come from a place of intention? I mean, where does, how does that happen? Well, I mean, well, for starters, like that's how that's our contact form, like if people want to reach us, they can tweet us or write us a letter. I used to have an email contact form, but it just basically got spammed with, um, PR pitches and just crazy people complaining about weird stuff on our side. And so I was like, you know, if you want to reach me, write me a letter. And what's funny, since we've done that about over a year ago, like the, just like the crazy rant complaints, like they've disappeared. Like I think I've gotten like one like letter where some guy, you know, wanted to tell me off about something that I wrote, um, but the, all the letters, I mean, I get letters everywhere, I go to the, I mean, I love going into my PO box and pulling out, you know, 10 letters. And it's just like, they're thank you letters. Thank you cards. But I think it's, I think it's really interesting about human nature. Maybe this sort of interest you, interest your readers. Um, yeah, I think anger is such a, like a spur of the moment emotion, like you feel at anger, like you feel like you get to act right now. Um, I got to, I got to tweet this out. I'm so angry. Look at these people did. Oh, I got to share this on face. Look at these people. Oh, I got to write them all letter. I hate what they did. I'm going to, I'm going to send them an email. Um, but like when you put this barrier between people, like where, oh, you have to like bring out, you have to get a piece of paper to get an envelope. Oh crap. I got to go to the post office and buy a stamp. They soon realized, oh, what I'm angry about is actually not that important. Um, and I don't do it. But the people who like feel positive, right, they, they genuinely, they're, they're grateful. Like they're willing to make that effort. Um, so like, yeah, uh, positivity, uh, I don't know, it's something, I guess it, uh, produces more sustained effort and negativity gives you sort of this, like spur of the moment, uh, motivation that dissipates very quickly if you don't act on it while you're angry. Uh huh. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just, when I, when I, as far as the, I mean, we're just, we're trying, I mean, what, what compels people to write, thank you letters, um, is, I mean, we try to be as useful as possible, um, with our, with our blog posts, right? We're not, I'm not like, I, I don't post babes of the day or like galleries of like chicks and yoga pants, um, that I know a lot of men's websites do, like I, I want to make these guys lives better, um, in any, in any, any small way, um, and so yeah, I mean, I think if you try to help people, they're going to say thank you. I mean, you have a lot of women who read your site too, right? Yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting. I mean, I'd say about 20% of our readership is women, um, and a lot of it, it's like, you know, it's like women who like share the site, then they go on to share the site with their boyfriends or their husbands or their brothers, so like, wow, this is a great men's magazine. Like, you know, it's not like your typical FHM or maximum, um, it's actually great stuff here. Um, and I also think, yeah, I mean, this Halloween ghoul all out with Instacart, whether you're hunting for the perfect costume, eyeing that giant bag of candy or casting spells with eerie decure. 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Yeah, women aren't student like, something it's weird, like I think women are very intrigued by the world of men. For some reason, it doesn't go both ways. I mean, it's kind of weird, I know women will read Esquire or GQ, I know women who are fans of that magazine, but I don't know many guys who would read Cosmo or Women's Day, it's kind of interesting, I don't know what goes on there, but yeah, about 20%, 25% of our viewership is women, which is OK with me. Let me ask you this, and we'll start wrapping things up because I know you've got to get going here. One of the things that's interesting is, I mean, you're playing this game on a whole other level. I mean, at this point, you're probably in the league of many of these men's magazines, and I mean, effectively, you're running what is a massive media brand, and I'm very curious kind of what are the challenges that have come with that, and what are the opportunities that have showed up as a byproduct of that? I mean, obviously, it sounds like this has been life-changing for you, and it started really just out of passion, not with the idea that it was going to turn into this. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So challenges, I mean, yeah, I think a lot of people fail to understand, like, whenever you have success, people always think about the benefits, like, "Oh, yeah, I reached my goal." "Oh, wow, look." But they don't think about the problems or challenges that success bring, they never prepare for that. So yeah, that's definitely been there. So like, you know, just growing this, you know, finding ways to sustain the site, because as you get, as a website, it's bigger, like, a lot of people don't know this when they start websites, like, you know, track, like, page views cost money, like, every time someone visits the site, like, they're using your bandwidth. And like, you know, when I first started out, I had like, the $10 a month dream host, you know, thing. That was great, you know, when you had, you know, a couple thousand pages a month. But then when you get, like, get slammed by dig or, like, Reddit, like, your site goes down for two days, that's no good, like, you can't have that happen. So you continuously, as our site has gotten bigger, we've had to upgrade servers and, you know, increase our bandwidth to accommodate the traffic. So that's been a challenge that I didn't think about before. Other challenges as you get bigger is, yeah, you're presented with opportunities, like, people want more of you. Like, they see that you have this, like, audience, right, like, particularly advertisers and PR agencies, and then just anybody who has a business, they're like, they want to be, they want some in on the action. So I understand, like, right, we have this, like, we have a very passionate, engaged audience. And, yeah, I mean, you would love to have your product or service featured in front of them. So but we have to be careful because, like, we are very protective of our readers, like, we don't, you know, we're not going to throw up just random advertorials of some product or, you know, show things like we don't really believe in. So like having just to deal with that, like, you know, knowing, yeah, just like that, walking that fine line of, you know, we've got to support the site, we've got to, you know, help me, you've got to have the pay the bills, keep the lights on, so we need advertising. But to do it in a way that's not obtrusive, that's transparent and all that. So that's a challenge. And then the other challenge, too, is you get bigger, yeah, more opportunities come your way and people are like, yeah, you should do this, you should go in this direction. And there's always this temptation to, like, I'm going to blow this up. I'm going to, like, I'm going to, besides the blog, I'm going to have, like, a clothing line, I'm going to have, you know, a man convention, I'm going to have, like, man classes. There's that temptation. But we've had this conversation and I just, I don't, I don't think we always say no because I don't, I think it would take us away from what we're really good at, which is producing just really, just content that's useful for guys. Even though, you know, we have people like, how do you need to have, like, an art of man in this convention? I just, I don't know. I don't think it would be that. I don't know. I don't think I would do a great job at it. And I think it would just, it would be a distraction because I've known people who put on conventions or whatever and they said, like, it just consumes your life for a year. I can tell you first, Dan, I'm in the process of it right now. Yeah, there you go. So that's the challenge. That's another challenge we have. And just, yeah, opportunities are great. I mean, I've had the opportunity to, like, talk to cool people and just learn new things. But yeah, so, I mean, it's a great, I mean, it's a dream job, right, to do what I do. And I don't, I try not to take it for granted ever. So yeah, there's that. Well, you know, I think, you know, this is really interesting because, I mean, what I am getting, it's funny because it brings a sort of full circle to, you know, the moral code that we talked about when we were talking about Coach Taylor. And I feel like, I feel like that's an undertone throughout everything that you do. Like, there's a moral code and you abide by it and there's no exceptions to it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we do our best to do that. And you just have to constantly keep reminding, it's tough because, like, sometimes you're, like, given opportunities where you're like, wow, that's a lot of money. Like, I've probably turned down tens of thousands of dollars, maybe hundreds of thousand dollars. Or the advertising opportunities because it just didn't fit my brand and I didn't feel comfortable with it. And with that extra money, it would have been nice, of course. But what we're doing on the site, right, is more important than that money. Well, I love that and I really appreciate, you know, your commitment to it. I mean, it's one of those, I mean, that's been, you know, me, I've turned down guests and scrapped interviews in order to maintain, you know, that level of integrity, at least with the show, to say, okay, you know what, this just isn't up to snuff and I'm not going to push it or I will, you know, scrap it and say, sorry, it just, it won't work. I've even turned down some very, very prominent guests because I just, I was like, you're not in line with our mission. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard to do. That's really hard to do. Because, I mean, yeah, we would see a big spike if we had them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. I mean, you could, you could do a lot of things, right? And we've seen that on our own site, like, I know, I mean, there's things we could do to, like, spike our traffic easily. But, you know, you have to, you have to think, you have to think the long game. That's what we're trying to do. We're thinking the long game. Well, I love that. I mean, I love that it's so, you know, there's so much, there's more, to me, this is really about building a legacy of maliness rather than a sort of, you know, one hit wonder or sort of trendy couple of years, but something that has a legacy. So, Brett, you know, I know you got it going. So I am going to close with my final question. Sure. I spoke five years ago, and the world may, not five years ago, but, like, almost three years ago when you were, you know, with us when it was called Blogcast FM, and the world has become so much noisier than it was when, you know, you started, when I started. And, you know, the more I think about it, the more I feel that having an unmistakable signature is the key to actually, you know, you know, standing out above the noise. So, you know, I'd like to ask you, based on your own experience in this kind of world, how do you become unmistakable? Well, for us, it's just putting an effort and like being, being, I think, going for depth, I think makes you unmistakable in a world that's very shallow, particularly on the online world, right, where it's just like memes and like, just like really just, you know, two-minute YouTube videos, or that's, that's most content online. And I think if you go in depth and be thorough, that will set you apart from probably 95% of the content out there. So there's our thing, but like being in depth, be thorough, and have a purpose. Mm-hmm. Well, Brett, this has been really, really great. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us. It's great to have you back a second time and really hear kind of how much has changed. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and share some of your insights with our listeners here at Unmistakable Creative. Hey, thanks. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Absolutely. And for those of you listening, we'll close the show with that. Today's episode of The Unmistakable Creative was brought to you by FreshBooks, the simple accounting solution for business owners who want to skip the headaches of tax time. No more hunting for receipts, digging for invoices, or going through records one at a time. The limited time you can try it free for 60 days, that's two whole months to see how much more efficient it will make your invoicing process. Visit GetFreshBooks.com and remember to enter Unmistakable Creative in the How Did You Hear About a Session. And don't forget that when you support our sponsors, you support our show. You've been listening to the Unmistakable Creative podcast. Start our website at UnmistakableCreative.com and get access to over 400 interviews in our archives. Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity? Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel? We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI world, and this is more than just a guide. It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch. The skills that are essential for standing out and thriving, no matter how much technology evolved. We're talking about real differentiators here, like creativity, emotional intelligence, critical thinking, and much more. 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The motivation behind starting the Art of Manliness
Why Brett looked to men like his grandfather for inspiration
Developing the awareness to recognize opportunities
The power of writing your ideas down
A look at a very stringent creative and editorial process
The thorough research process behind Art of Manliness
Why Brett takes a workman approach to the craft of writing
A look at the history and evolution of masculinity
Why our definition of manliness is self centered
The negative media narrative around manliness
A look at how Friday Night Lights creates a positive role model for men
Finding a balance between confidence and humility
The importance of recognizing men when they're at their best
A Look at the Classical idea of Manliness and potential byproducts
Challenges of success and growth
Why Brett tends to be incredibly protective of his readers
The reason Brett has resisted the temptation to grow into other areas
The moral code that Brett abides by on a regular basis
Why depth is a critical aspect to becoming unmistakable

The Art of Manliness is authored by husband and wife team, Brett and Kate McKay. It features articles on helping men be better husbands, better fathers, and better men

The motivation behind starting the Art of Manliness
Why Brett looked to men like his grandfather for inspiration
Developing the awareness to recognize opportunities
The power of writing your ideas down
A look at a very stringent creative and editorial process
The thorough research process behind Art of Manliness
Why Brett takes a workman approach to the craft of writing
A look at the history and evolution of masculinity
Why our definition of manliness is self centered
The negative media narrative around manliness
A look at how Friday Night Lights creates a positive role model for men
Finding a balance between confidence and humility
The importance of recognizing men when they're at their best
A Look at the Classical idea of Manliness and potential byproducts
Challenges of success and growth
Why Brett tends to be incredibly protective of his readers
The reason Brett has resisted the temptation to grow into other areas
The moral code that Brett abides by on a regular basis
Why depth is a critical aspect to becoming unmistakable

The Art of Manliness is authored by husband and wife team, Brett and Kate...

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