The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

The Fatal Flaw of Being Human with Janelle Hanchett

When Janelle Hanchett returned to motherhood after being separated from her children, she started to wonder about the way the parenting experience is portrayed in the media. It brought up a very basic question about the experience. Was she the only who wasn't seeing it the way it was portrayed? That was the start of renegade mothering, a fight against meaningful parenting advice.

Here are the highlights from our chat:

Why having no audience is great for practice your writing
Learning to approach your writing as if there is no audience
Growing up with Jesus and LSD side by side
The start of Janelle's journey into motherhood
Revealing the truth of what it is like to actually be a parent
A harsh look at failure, alcoholism, and drug addiction
Reaching a point where you have nothing left to prove
Learning to be completely ok with failure
Living life through the lens of an impostor syndrome
How music influenced Janelle's writing efforts
Reaching a point where you don't have a next move
Moving towards the most painful realities of who we are
Dealing what happens when we discover that the worst is true
The part of you that dies when you become a parent

Janelle Hanchett is a mother of questionable disposition to three children aged 11, 7, and 2. She lives in northern California with those kids and a husband who thinks “getting dressed up” means shaving his forearm tattoo. If you want, you can join her in the fight against helpful parenting advice at www.renegademothering.com.

Resources and People Mentioned

Dear Son, I hope you stay Soft

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Duration:: 1h 6m
Broadcast on:: 03 Mar 2014
Audio Format:: other

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Not sure where to start? State Farm has over 19,000 local agents that can help you choose an option to fit your needs and budget. Get started today and contact a State Farm agent or go to statefarm.com. Janelle, welcome to The Unmistakable Creative. Hi. Thank you for having me. Yeah. It's my pleasure. So, you know, I came across you by way of our mutual friend, Meg Ward, and she linked to something you wrote and the title alone grabbed me. It was, I think, a New Year's resolution post and I thought, wow, that's pretty raw. And, you know, and usually anything that's really raw naturally stands out to me just because I think honesty is one of the most appealing characteristics of anybody's work. So on that note, tell us a bit about yourself, your background, and how that has led you to this, you know, the site. I mean, renegade mothering. Well, how far back am I supposed to go? Well, as far back as things that you feel have influenced you getting to this point. Okay. Well, I mean, I think the sort of the writing aspect of it, the sort of raw, uncensored writing started when I was about eight years old, nine years old, somebody in my church handed me a journal and said that I should write it in every day. And I thought that sounded like a pretty good idea, I don't know, you know, and I just started doing it. And I think because I was writing to no audience, and that's how I learned to write was just to write whatever I was thinking, you know, without any fear of repercussion or somebody reading it, and I developed a voice and just started saying what I wanted to say. But as far as what, you know, got me to the point of writing that blog, I didn't come into motherhood in a sort of standard way. You know, I was, I got, I found out I was pregnant when I was 21 and I'd known the dad for three months. You know, it was a real, real love story. We were pretty much drunk that whole time and I kept the baby because I thought I couldn't really justify the alternative and so I had this baby when I was 22. And I kind of looked at it like, like something, like a passing occurrence, like when you get your teeth cleaned or something or go to Mexico, you know, you just like do this thing and then you come back and you come back to your real life. And that's obviously not what happened. And then I have a whole story of alcoholism that I was separated for my kids for a couple of years and when I came back to motherhood, I, you know, came back from that stint. I just looked around at the parenting world and I just thought, am I the only one here who thinks this is all bullshit, like, why, why am I having such a remarkably different experience than what I see in the media and in the articles and the way it's all portrayed. And so I just said, you know, screw it, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna write a blog and I'm just gonna say the exact truth of my experience, exactly how I see it. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make it consistent. I'm not gonna make it pretty. I'm just gonna write it the way it is for me. And I just really wanted to know if there were other women that felt this way and that's how it started. That's it. Okay. So there's, there's a lot of stuff here. I mean, you've heard my interviews. You know, we're gonna go back and tear all this apart in a, in a good way. So let's, let's start, you know, the irony of this is the nature of your writing when you told me that somebody in a church handed you a journal. That makes me laugh to think, wait, that there's a bit of irony in there. And for those of you guys who haven't seen Janelle's blog, go see it and you'll get the irony of what we're talking about here. And I think it will become apparent to you as, as we go throughout this conversation. But you know, I, I really love that you brought up this notion that there was no audience that you were writing for. And I think that that to me is, is really, it's really something as I've learned to, to sit down and put pen to paper in a moleskin every morning, realizing I'm just doing this for myself now. Yes, I will put it out, but I'm not writing with the audience in mind anymore. I'm writing because I feel compelled to say something. Something different is happening to my writing. It's really, it's almost counterintuitive, but it's resonating with the audience like it never has before. And I think that a lot of people are very, they're sort of fearful about going there. You know, that's my friend, Justine Musk likes to call, you know, you cross a line in order to figure out where it is. And I guess, you know, for me, the question becomes, how do you approach this as if there is no audience, even though when you know there is one? All right, because I just don't give a shit. Yeah. But that's because of life experience, right? Like, okay, but first of all, we got to go back to the church thing because it's more irony than you even know. It was a Mormon church. All right. It was a Mormon church. And that's one of the awesome things about my childhood. I grew up simultaneously going to the Mormon church every week and grateful to have shows and Bob Dylan and Santana going on road trips with my mom. It's kind of a long story, but I grew up like with Jesus and LSD sort of side by side, you know. And yeah, and I got nothing but love for the Mormons, you know, I mean, I don't, I'm obviously not still involved and I don't, you know, love their social stances are not going to work for me or my family, but I, yeah, so I grew up with this, like really profound dichotomy sort of all the time in my brain, like, you know, incidentally, I totally chose acid over Jesus, but that's, but yeah, you know, the thing about it is I, it's, I don't know if maybe I was just sort of born with some, like, lack of, of sensor or something. I mean, I remember being like in high school and watching the girls sort of start to understand boys and want to be liked by boys and I remember it occurred to me one day that girls were making decisions and acting in certain ways and boys too, but for me, it resonated with the girls because obviously that's what I was and, and they were doing certain things and changing their personalities kind of to appeal to the boys. And I thought, well, how about, why the fuck would you ever do that? Like, I just, at my core, I couldn't understand why I would ever change who I am to appeal to somebody else and, and that was sort of organic just out of the get-go and it kind of, you know, it manifested in some very negative ways before I think I was able to, to kind of maybe, you know, grow up or channel that, but, but the reason that I think I do write as if there's no audience and I, and I think what's that enabled me to do that strain is that I was, I mean, I was a complete failure in life. I mean, I, I was a daily drinker by the time I was 18. I, I was a, by the time, you know, my, my mom showed up in 2000, you know, and then, and from 18, I went to college and I, I went to Spain and I, I had drug addictions off and on, cocaine. Um, I was usually able, I was always able to get off the drugs, but never the alcohol and when a couple of kids came along, you know, I tried to clean up my act and I just couldn't do it. And in February, 2007, my mom showed up and she said she was taking the kids to the park and I knew it was alive because it was 7 a.m. and it was raining. And I let them go because I wanted to go back to bed. And for the next two years, I was, I was a hopeless, worthless alcoholic, um, in and out of institutions, treatment centers, rehabs, uh, near overdosing, not in my kids lives. And here, and you know, here's the thing is like when you've gone, when you've gone down there, like what the hell do you have to prove, you know, like there's nothing left. There's just, there's nothing left. And so for me to write the truth of myself and my failures as a parent and as a person, really, what's somebody going to say, you know, that I haven't already faced? I mean, at that point, the cat's out of the bag, right? Yeah. I love this. I love this. There's nothing left. There's got nothing to prove, you know. The ego was crushed for a while and there just, there ain't nothing left. I mean, somebody's going to tell me I'm a bad mother. I'm like, yeah, you know, I did drugs and breastfed my child. Like you think I don't fucking know that yet here I am, you know, here I am and I'm here and I'm and I'm good and but I don't have anything to prove. And I think that failure is was the greatest, the most freeing thing of my life. Okay. So this is awesome. And this is exactly why I wanted to have you on the show because I knew I knew there was something much deeper in this story. Like, I have an intuitive sense for these things at this point, like I just know it when I pick guests, it's I want to talk about a few things. You know, I think it's really interesting. You brought up the whole high school thing and this sort of need for approval that comes with our adolescence and it's funny because I think that that becomes sort of the root of the existential crisis we all face later in life. I mean, it got, I mean, I can't tell you how many things I've done to, you know, to gain my parents approval, to make my friends think, you know, I remember there was a guy I went to college with who was really, really smart and, you know, we would walk through Sproul Plaza in Berkeley and he would tell us about all the people he knew that worked at McKinsey and Bain and all the smart people that he hung out with. And you know, I look back at that and think, I'm like, that guy was an asshole. I'm like, really? I'm like, why was I trying to get his validation in my life when I thought really what I realized after not having this kind of a person in my life for an extended period of time, it's like, wow, what an asshole. Right? Yeah. It's really, I mean, it's really interesting that that, like, but the fact that we would let somebody dictate so much of our lives, I mean, I think that that really speaks to a lot of what, to me, you know, I think that, you know, I love that you brought up like all these failures really liberate you. I mean, it's funny, you look on medium, I have a post titled A Resume Of My Failures and I mean, really, I mean, the entire art of being unmistakable is me outing myself in raw, like, honest ways. But yeah, I mean, there's just, you know, I think that that's just such rich territory and something that it's strange, right? Like, honesty is the scariest thing in the world when you try to push the limits of it and it's really interesting what happens when you go there. And when you cross that line, and I always say, sometimes you have to cross a line to figure out where it's at. Absolutely. And I never would have thought, and you never think to look there, you know, it's like we go through our whole lives trying to avoid failure, but then it's like, if you move right into it and just, I mean, what are we so freaking afraid of, right? Like, maybe I am a failure. I mean, I actually had a friend of mine tell me I had just gotten sober and I went into a performance review at work and I had been like showing up for a few months, which was I was super impressed with myself and I expected this glowing performance review, right? I mean, I expected them just to be like, oh, you know, you were amazing and it was not good at all. I mean, it was terrible. And I went out into the parking lot and I was crying and I was all heartbroken and I called this friend of mine and he, and I said, man, I just feel like a failure. I just, I just feel like a failure. Any, any said something to me that I will never forget, he said, wouldn't it be great if you could be okay with being a failure? And it just rocked me because it's like, we're so afraid of facing this thing. But then if we move right into it, we're like the freest people in the world because then we got nothing, then we got nothing to prove, yeah, I'm a failure, cool, whatever, bring it, you know? What now? Same shit new day, you know what I mean? And that's, you know, and it was from that place that I started writing. I mean, I came back, I was sober, got sober in March of 2009 and I had my third baby in August of 2010 and I started writing in January of 2011 because alongside this sort of, you know, feelings of being a misfit and outsider, I knew I had just a profound gratefulness and love for my family, you know, because they had been gone. And I, I felt like I still feel like I'm playing a big cosmic joke on the world. Like, you know, like somebody like me, you know, sitting at a tee ball game or parent teacher conference, right? Yeah. Well, it's funny that that whole cosmic joke on the world thing. I think that, you know, it's the imposter syndrome, right? I, I think we all feel that. I think every one of us feels that. Like every one of us shows up at the blank page every day and says, God, this is probably not going to be that good. Why does anybody read this crap? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I feel like an imposter all the time. I mean, I've, I've lived my whole life going, okay, at any moment, somebody's going to find out, you know, that's how I live the world at any moment, they're going to figure out what I've no idea what the fuck I'm doing here, you know, but then once it, once it turned out that, that, that, that, that was clear, right? There's, there's no gray area, like any more Janelle does not know what she's doing on earth. It was like, Oh, well, cool. Now I got nothing. Now I can just go, you know, so you know what, I want to revisit an earlier part of our conversation. Uh, you know, I loved the way you phrased it. You said, you know, my early child, you know, my growing up was a combination of Jesus and LSD, which, which really, you know, what I want to look at, I mean, you mentioned musicians like the Grateful Dead. I mean, what were your early artistic influences, uh, that, that really shaped kind of the way you approached writing and the way you approached, you know, the art of it? Um, I would say it was a lot more, um, and initially it was a lot more music, the Grateful Dead, Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan was kind of raised by these, well, pseudo hippies that my mom went back to the LDS church. She was raised LDS and then enacted for about 20 years during which time she partied and rocked and hung out in San Francisco during the summer of love and that time. So that, that never really left her, even though she went, she went back to the church. She always, we always had a lot of live rock and roll in our house and, um, I remember the first time I heard Ripple by Jerry Garcia, you know, by Grateful Dead, I just put my head down and cried, you know, and I always felt like there's something about, you know, that music that, um, the music that just, you, you don't ever really know what he's talking about, but you know exactly what he's talking about, you know? And, um, as far as writing, I was a huge, uh, Hemingway really, really floored me. Um, the first time I read, Sun also rises, you know, I, I really, you know, because of course, half of his writing is about loser alcoholics, you know, and this was even before I was, I was there, but maybe I had a pre-monition or something, you know, just his terse prose, you know, just the way he, there's not a lot of narrative there, you know, I mean, it's, it's all, it's actually all narrative, he's just telling you what, what happens, not a lot of, um, embellishment or, or, or pretty kind of touchy-feely stuff. He just lays it out, he just lays life out and, and you do what you want with that. And I think it's the reason people both hate him and love him, but, um, I, you know, and I also have, um, I've gone to school for English and writing, but that's a whole different, you know, that's a whole different thing. It is interesting though to sort of have a, you know, I have an MA in English, but then I write, you know, in a way that sort of breaks all English rules. But yeah, I mean, those are kind of, I read everything when I was little and I read stuff that was way of, you know, over my head, air quotes, right? A lot of Steinbeck, a lot of Hemingway, Jane Austen. But Hemingway, I think was the one who, when I read him was the moment when I realized that writers could say things that permanently sort of altered you, you know, I love that. Yeah. And you just see yourself in that page and you can't believe that you can't believe somebody's writing you. Wow. So, you know, it's funny as I'm listening to you describe this, I see sort of this interesting dichotomy in your life of somebody who is on the path to becoming an intellectual. At the same time, I mean, clearly somebody who's led a very difficult and tragic life. And those two things are such odd, they're odd contrast to me. I mean, I guess, you know, like, I mean, how do you, like, I think that to me, there's a story of, you know, sort of picking yourself back up and, you know, getting things back together. But, you know, you mentioned reaching the point of being an alcoholic at a very early age in your life and I wondered if you'd be, you know, willing to dig deeper into this and dive deeper into this and talk about sort of, you know, where it took you and the journey of that and, you know, bouncing back from it and getting to the point where you realize, okay, well, this is not productive because clearly from talking to your very intelligent person. It seems like, you know, one path was, it's like you could have gone in two different directions here. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it's, and that's what makes it so sort of funny, right? That's why, like, I can't possibly, it would be insane for me to give a fuck, right? I mean, like it's, it would be crazy because my whole everyday life is just like, wait, seriously? I mean, am I really doing this? I mean, am I really getting up every day and making my kids breakfast and driving them to school and picking them up, you know, I mean, it's just, women like me don't end up that way, you know, we just don't. And I don't have any, you know, I don't think I'm above these people on the street, these people. I mean, that was me, man. And, you know, I'm not going to go into too much, gory, do you don't want to scare your listeners? But I was, I mean, I was that mother, you know, I was the hated drug addicted loser mother. I mean, my, my oldest child had a, had a box on her bedside table where she kept all the letters and no side writer. And she still has that box, you know, and I, and I sit with that, well, I, when I first got sober, I, these memories would come back into my head that were so dark that I would literally shake my head back and forth to get rid of them, you know? And it's no joke, right? I mean, I didn't, I didn't set out to be an alcoholic. In fact, with my Mormon sort of upbringing, I, I was very determined. I had alcoholism in my family, you know? And I knew what it was. My mom was very clear about it because of that. And I grew up with this Mormon, you know, very strong moral code. And I was very outspoken, my freshman year of high school, if, if any of them listened to this, they'll laugh because I was like so anti-drugs and alcohol. And then when I was 15 years old, I saved my money and I went to Honduras, my grandma helped me go to it. And I went to this rainforest. And then we, we hung out on this island called Roatan. And I'd never done a drug in my life. I'd never, I'd never had a cigarette, never even had a sip of coffee, man. And I, but I kinda had a wild, y'all a little wild, I was a little, I was a little, I was pretty sure nothing was ever going to go wrong in my life. And so I, I snuck out with this 14 year old and we ran into some hippies or I ran into some hippies. And they said, hey, do you, do you want some acid? And I said, yes, yes, I do. And I don't know why I said yes, I, so he handed me three hits and he said, now take, you know, go back and share these with your friends. So I gave my friend half a hit and took the other two and a half. And that was how it started. I mean, I'm not kidding, man. That's how it hit me. And I, I never went back. It was like, I started partying with everybody else, you know, and that's the really insidious thing about alcoholism is you don't know that you're one until it's too late. And I was just like everybody else, but I was always very smart, you know, I was really smart. I got good grades. I knew how to work the system. I knew how to make things happen. And I just really, I really didn't, I really thought I could have, you know, could figure it out. But by the time I was a senior in high school, I mean, I was, I was doing multiple drugs. I was drinking every day, but I still went away to college. I went to UC Davis, which is a very good school, was on the Dean's List, went away to Spain for a year. And I always just was able to pull through, you know, I always was able to just like, I had a move, you know, I had a next move. And, but alcoholism is a progressive disease and, you know, I started, I wasn't a fool, you know, I could see that I couldn't stop drinking. And so I started looking for reasons, you know, well, maybe it's this, maybe it's that and I would try all these different things and, but it just kept progressing. And every now and then I'd get addicted to drugs, you know, and I'd get off the drugs, but the alcohol would always come back. And eventually it will, it will take you down. And I tried therapy and I tried religion and I thought, well, a lot of it's got to be my husband, you know, so I left him and then I came back, I thought, well, if I have another baby, I'll clean up my act, you know, had my son, who's now eight and, and it just, I just couldn't, you know, it just got worse and worse and worse and every day I'd swear this is going to be it. I'm not drinking today, man. I'm not drinking today. And by the end of the day, I'd find myself with, with the alcohol again. And as I say, from 2007 to 2009, I, I was just dying. And I remember one time I was in a, I was in a trailer and I, I was drinking some whiskey and I'd been up for days and my eyes rolled back in my head and I fell back on this mattress and I woke up in an ER with a pick line in my neck and I was 28 years old. I had a bracelet on my wrist that said Jane Doe, female, age unknown. And the doctor thought I was trying to kill myself because I had so many substances in my body and I said, no, man, I do this every day. Wow. Yeah. And you'd think that would get me sober, right? But it didn't. That was in 2008 actually and I was, I was drunk for another year and I, you know, the, the big question is how did you pull out, right? Like how did you, you know, and I don't tell that story because I think it makes me amazing or anything. But I kind of want to tell that story because I know that I do sort of defy the stereotypes of an alcoholic and, you know, we all want to think that the alcoholic is just this horrible loser person and, and we are when we're drinking, but, you know, there, there's, there's more to that story and people always want to know what I did to get sober and I, I really hate the answer because it's so, it's so difficult, but all I did was drink myself into, into a spot where the only way I can describe it is that the, that the bottle killed me. And I knew, I woke up on March 5th, 2009, I knew without a shadow of doubt that I was, I had no moves left, you know, I had no moves left and I would have given anything at that point in my life to just live one day sober. And I got some, I was able to get some help and I haven't had a drink since. And I really, I'd like to make it some giant willpower story where I just, man, I just saw something that reminded me of the quality of my life, but the fact of the matter is I got, you know, I died and I had absolutely nothing left. I didn't care if my family came back, I didn't care if my mom or my kids or my husband came back. I just wanted to live freely one day. And the rest is history. Wow. I didn't say, that's why I didn't say a word. That was beautiful. That's, you know, there's, there's so much there to, to sort of unpack, but, you know, it's interesting. I mean, the thing that stood out is that you said you always had a next move and you, you got to this point where there were no more next moves. So it's funny because my next question is going to be, okay, there's probably a lot of people sitting here thinking about how do I find my next move, if I'm in, in sort of dire straits and it, or a situation that just seems unescapable, because I think that, you know, I mean, yours played itself out in the form of alcoholism, but I think we all have prisons in our lives that we're trying to escape from. Yes. And so, so I guess the question for me is, is, you know, how do we make those escapes? Like, you know, for some people, it's the job they hate. I mean, you know, it's really weird because by the time you guys are listening, because you all have heard this, I had a guy here who walked a dog across America. And he said, you know, you think that in these really sort of epic quests that you're going to find enlightenment. And he said, you know what? He said, I just have walked a dog of thousands, you know, thousands of miles, but I didn't find enlightenment. And it's funny because I said to him, you know, I lived in Costa Rica for six months. I thought I was going to come back enlightened. I said, I came back a better surfer, but I'm not anymore enlightened, you know? So yeah, I'd love to hear your take on this. Wow, that's a big question. I mean, I can only speak for myself. For me, it was moving straight into the most horrifying, painful reality I could imagine about myself. And that's when I found freedom, right? Like, do we have all these fears? But if we just move into the fear, we realize there's nothing there, right? Like we think that enlightenment or whatever is going to fix us or our next move is going to fix us. But it's like if we could ever just sort of become okay with what is right now, I think usually that's when we find how to change it. Do you know what I mean? 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It makes all the sense of the world because it's a conversation that I feel like I've been hammering home on the show lately because I see it so much as this sort of distinction between circumstances and identity and when they become intertwined, that's when our problems just spiral out of control. Yeah. I mean, it's like if I spent so many years trying to avoid the truth of myself, right? Like, whatever that is, you know? I mean, if somebody's stuck in a loser job, it's like we spend so much time trying to hide from the fact that we're in a not a loser job, right? We feel like it's a job we hate, you know? We spend so much time trying to cover or mask or hide from that fact, but what if like we just go right into it and go, "Okay, I am a loser in a loser job." Like, what happens then? I'm still exactly the same person, only now I'm in reality and I can actually do something about it. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. I think that one of the things that sort of happens as a byproduct of, you know, the internet and this, you know, what I call, we perpetuate a lot of this new age psychobabble is that there's the sort of the distinction between there's optimism and delusion and I think we lose sight of the distinction between those two things. Yeah, and it's like, what if, I mean, what if the worst is true, you know? It's like, what if the worst is true? Well, okay, then the worst is true and we just move from there, you know, but I think our, I think we just spend so much time trying to distract ourselves from, from the reality, you know? When, when reality is actually the most freeing spot you can hang out in, you know, the truth is actually the most as terrifying as it is, you know, once you sort of, like you were talking about the line, you've got to cross the line and know where the line is, you know? And yeah, and it's not like, I mean, I still get, I mean, people send me hate mail, people send people say horrible things, man, I mean, people are just like, you are fucked up and I'm like, yeah, but at the same, but that's what's been the real trip, right, is that I have this story and, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I didn't write, I didn't write about my alcoholism at all on that blog for like the first year. I just wrote about parenthood because I just wrote about being a mother because, because the thing is, what gave me some confidence was that I, was that I knew that, I mean, I don't want to say that I'm more grateful for my kids than other people because that's, that's ridiculous. But having been sort of brought back to life and, and being, sort of having a second chance and being able to be a mom when I could never be one before, I was really having a good time and really grateful for these kids like on a level that I, that I couldn't possibly put into words and yet I wanted to kill myself like half the time I was with them, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, like, it wasn't glorious and it wasn't interesting, it wasn't glamorous. I'm like, why do all these fucking people act like they know what they're doing, you know, like all these approaches and these theories and these ways of parenting, and I'm like, I just, I just started having this sneaking suspicion that everybody was full of shit, you know? And, yeah, and I just wanted to know, I was just like, you know what, you know what, screw it. Like, I, and I had nothing to prove like we've talked about. So I just said, and that's what's, so I just said, I'm just gonna put it out and if people respond, they respond, you know, maybe, maybe there's somebody else out there that, that feels this way and because I love the right, that was sort of the medium that worked for me and, and I have been astounded by the responses, particularly because of, of the super, you know, super kind of dark story I've got, you know, but I didn't share any of that on the blog, not because I was ashamed or hiding it, but frankly, it was because I didn't really feel like I needed accolades for, for finally taking on the responsibilities that were mine, you know? I didn't really want to make recovering alcoholic my, you know, the thing on my label where this is the thing, this is why I want you to be impressed with me, right? Because oh look how bad I was and look at how great I am now, like this bullshit, right? I just sort of got my head out of my ass and started living. And I'm not sure how I got there, but I guess I was just thinking about how interesting, how stunning it's been, like, of the blog just hit like 10,000 Facebook fans yesterday and I just can't believe that. Yeah, I saw that this morning. You know, it's interesting. So, so this is great. This is actually where I wanted to take the conversation next. So this works out perfectly. I mean, I think that, you know, the tie of, you know, living in reality and then openly admitting all of these things really makes a perfect setup. I mean, your tagline is, you know, the fight against meaningful parenting advice, which I, you know, I love that. It's really, you know, there's, I think there's a much deeper story here than just parenting because the very beginning of our conversation, you talked about, you know, sort of the media narratives that play out around parenting, but I think the media narratives that play it around your entire life end up being complete bullshit. Like we, we think that, you know, you're supposed to be a certain way and look a certain way and all these things. And so, I mean, I think taking that on and challenging that is really, I think that, that takes guts. I think that takes, you know, real, it's bold that I really, let's, let's look specifically at parenting just because that's, you know, where you've chosen to direct this and kind of how it's played out. I mean, what is the media narrative and what's the reality that you face? I mean, you said, you know, you love these kids, but sometimes you want to kill yourself. And I'd love to dig deeper into this because I think that's just, there's a lot of, you know, really interesting insights here. Well, it's, you know, I think there's a couple of, you know, I wrote a post the other day about, about, I just said, hey, it was like, how I want off all parenting teams, right? Like, there's all these teams, you know, there's, yeah, yeah, right? Like, there's the attachment parents, you know, and then there's like the eco parents and then there's the cry out and sort of the, there's this idea that, that you can adhere to a philosophy of parenting and it's going to work for you and it's going to be great and your kids are going to grow up and you read all these books and, and, and what kills me about that is that I'm too inconsistent for anything like that, right? Like, I start out great and then I end up kind of, you know, faltering generally at a really critical moment when I'm supposed to be a really impressive parent and yeah, it's like uncanny and, and this woman wrote a response, you know, that struck me where she said, she said, you know, and I'm called mediocre and whole awful all the time. So it didn't really bother me, but she, she said, why is it funny? I wrote a tongue in cheek post about sort of not being able to stay on these, these teams because I just suck too badly, essentially. And she wrote, why is it funny to be mediocre, awful, a parenthood? I mean, I understand we're all human, but, but how is this funny? I mean, this is the most important job in the world. And I read it and I just burst out laughing because that's what makes it funny, right? That it's the most important job in the world. You know, and yet it's given to these dumbass humans. Right. OK, so all you got to do is mold this person into a well adjusted, happy, complex human being. And yet you suck because you're human. Not exactly taking orders at McDonald's. Yeah, and that's why it's funny, right? That's exactly why it's funny is that we're so flawed and we suck so bad because, I mean, because we do not all the time, but we do. And yet we're given this job that apparently, you know, is the most sacred calling in the world, right? And that, that to me is what's funny and that, that narrative that, that there's this educated, you know, perfect way of doing it that or that somehow, I mean, the giant flaw, of course, is that we aren't turned into perfect humans the second we give birth or become a dad or, you know, become a mom. We don't, our flaws and our problems are still there. We just have these kids that were supposed to be molding into perfect humans, you know? All right, everybody, let's take a quick break and thank today's sponsors. As I said at the beginning of the episode, it's that time of year when we need to be setting goals and determining what skills we'll need in order to accomplish those goals. That's where our sponsor for today's show, Skilled Up, comes in. Finding online courses in the areas you're interested in can be a real rabbit hole that causes you to waste a lot of time. Skilled Up curates the world of online and educational resources to bridge the gap between education and job skills. They put the best of all online learning under one roof and online learning is flexible, self-paced and affordable. They have courses in web design, photography, marketing, software development, business management and much more. The bottom line is this, you have to keep improving your skills to navigate the world we live in today and Skilled Up is a great place to do that. Acquiring new skills allows you to be more creative and build new things. They've also put together a free toolkit for innovative creators that you can download at promo.skilledup.com/creative. Again, that's promo.skilledup.com/creative. I love this. I mean, this is this is this is so good. I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, I think about like, you know, what I told one of my friends, I said, you know, if you if you look at the upbringing, my sister and I have had I had what by most standards would be a fairly privileged life. My dad is a college professor. I've had nurturing parents. They weren't abusive. They're, you know, they didn't have problems. And you look at kind of how the two of us turned out and, you know, they have their quote unquote parenting philosophy, which ultimately the typical Indian parenting philosophy is if we've done our job, you'll go to medical school, clearly, clearly, clearly that didn't work out with me. But it did with my sister and it's it's kind of like, okay, well, it's interesting, right? Like what is it that they do something differently? And I think that the thing that gets left out and I wrote about this elsewhere, and I think this this is actually, you know, this is where I, why I felt this is a much deeper conversation than than parenting is there's a variable in there that throws off any equation in any formula. And it's that we are human and that every single one of us is completely different. So the result, that one variable, I mean, it's the same thing, right? When somebody signs up for a writing course or a course on how to build something online, there are certain students who are going to have a certain result because of how they're built and it because of who they are. That variable throws off every single formula in my mind. Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's really funny, you said that because my brother is two years older than me and he is, he's a doctor. He's a Mormon doctor and he's amazing. He's wonderful, but he has never felt compelled to drop acid in Honduras. I mean, this is not right. This is not his gig. And he looked at, you know, the, I mean, yes, exactly. So it's like, I mean, you know, not to go into the whole nature versus nurture thing, but I mean, I, that's exactly it is that we, we are, we've got this fatal flaw that is our humanity and we aren't perfect. We can't be perfect. And this idea that, that we're going to somehow be able to always have this, you know, best self that we put forward to our kids. It's going to result in these great outcomes. I mean, it's just bullshit. You know, this is just pure gold. I mean, your honesty is refreshing and just Ron vulnerable and I love it. So let's do this. Let's shift gears a little bit and let's talk about some of the external byproducts of this approach to taking, you know, taking this tack and really, I mean, I saw it, you know, the Facebook fan pages, 10,000 fans. Obviously people are resonating with this message and, you know, to me, it's like, Oh, wow, you're saying the things that a lot of people are thinking but are afraid to say because that's what I hear the way they'll be perceived. Like, you know, it's like, Oh, if I say that, I'm going to be perceived as a horrible mother, you know, I'm really curious. I mean, you know, since you have started this, talk to me about sort of the external byproducts of this work and what's happened as a result of it. You mean, like in the way people have well, I mean, people combination of responses. I mean, how has your life changed as a result of this? How are you different as a person because of this journey? Well, I mean, when I started it, I just started, I mean, I just started writing January, like three years ago. And I just, since then, all I've done is put up a poster to a week and I put it on Twitter and I put it on Facebook. That's it. I don't do any gimmicks. I don't do any giveaways. You know, there's a lot of sort of blogging, which, you know, it's cool. I just don't have the energy or time, frankly. And it's not really something I'd be interested in doing, but I haven't ever sought really anything. I've just written things and the results have been pretty miraculous. I mean, for the first year or so, it was, I'd say, probably a hundred or two people reading, but then I wrote a post in February of 2013 of last year that they got kind of big. You know, it was called, "I became a mother and died to live." And it was just about, frankly, the part of you that dies when you become a mother that nobody talks about, you know, we all want to say we're, we want to put things in as delicate terms of being transformed or we become more. But the fact of the matter is the woman that you were is gone and she's replaced by this other woman and it's fine, but it is what it is. And I didn't know I was saying something kind of that was going to rock people, but apparently it did. And that's actually sort of a common thread. Sometimes I think I'm actually saying something pretty low-key and people are like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you sent that out loud." And I'm like, "Oh, it kind of makes me feel like there's something wrong with me." But clearly there is, but yeah. And so after that, it sort of grew exponentially, right? Like I had 600 Facebook fans before that and then it became 4,000. And since then, I have been writing for a couple websites and I get hundreds of emails of women, you know, I really can't believe it. I mean, I get a lot of emails from women thanking me. And I just can't, I can't wrap my hat around it. I really can't telling me that exact thing of just thank you so much for saying what I've been thinking and thought I was a freak, you know? I thought I was the only one and I can't believe I'm seeing it in writing. And I owe an agent of people, which is pretty amazing. And I am stuck in that precarious position of needing to feed my family, but also wanting to be a writer. But it just keeps growing and I think, I don't know, I think I've got about 20,000 fans now between email subscription and Facebook and all that and it's pretty remarkable. I mean, how it's changed me. I suppose I inadvertently found what I want to do with my life. You know? We were talking a little before the show started about people who kind of want to go on these creative endeavors and I was just sort of going to do this as a little side thing. And now I see that it's, this is what I want to do, you know, I want to write and I definitely have something to say. And the fact that it sort of grew up organically, it makes me a little more confident, you know, it makes me a little more interested in it because I didn't really, I didn't force it, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that that's, you know, it's interesting. I had a guy here, I think I'm going to group your interviews together. He wrote a comedic translation of the Bible called, "God is disappointed in you." Oh God, that's awesome. And he had a very similar thing to say about sort of, you know, he said, when you start out with the notion that you're going to make a living from your art, he said it just, there's so much more pressure. Yeah. It just puts something in you and I mean, you know, it's kind of like you had said, you know, for me, this grew very organically as well. I didn't start out thinking, "Hey, this is going to be my career." Right. I mean, obviously things change quite a bit after, you know, five years of doing it. But it's one of those things that, you know, I love you mentioned that sort of precarious position because I think that most people don't really get that, "Hey, by the way, even the people who you admire and look up to in your heroes and role models, they stand in that precarious position often for a very, very long time." Mm-hmm. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important. Life insurance. Why? Because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage, credit card debt, it can even help fund an education. And guess what? Life insurance is probably a lot more affordable than you think. In fact, most people think life insurance is three times more expensive than it is. So with state farm life insurance, you can protect your loved ones without breaking the bank. Not sure where to start? State Farm has over 19,000 local agents that can help you choose an option to fit your needs and budget. Like, share, share, share, share, share, share, share, share. And, you know, we've got 50 or 100 people reading your writing. It's like, "Cool, you know, you're kind of hanging out with old friends." But when it gets to be thousands and thousands and people start kind of looking up to you or seeing you as some sort of, you know, like somebody that they look up to, right? It's a really bizarre thing, you know, as I'm sure you understand, because that imposter syndrome just starts big, you know, where you're like, "Oh God, don't think I'm great, because I will let you down." Like, "Just give me time, okay, honey, like, you can't put me on some pedestal, you can't." And sort of the division, the interesting sort of, the division of like, "I do write raw and I do write honestly, but it is still, you know, writing, it's not me as a person. So I'm getting to the point now where I will run into people who've read everything about me and I know nothing about that, I mean, it's sort of a strange thing, right? But it's cool and I mean, I've just got to keep going with it, because when I get these emails and these messages from women who are telling me that they've never, that they wish that I was around when their kids were little and that I've really set them free in ways, it's just, I can't believe it, you know, it makes the tragedy of my former life worth it. Wow. You know, I think one of the things you said there, I love the idea that I will let you down, totally stealing that and writing that as an essay or a blog post. I love that because, you know, I think this really, it just brings us full circle from where we were at, you know, with this notion of, "Hey, I was writing in a journal with, you know, and not writing for an audience to now having one that is really massive and trying to maintain that authenticity and that honesty while secretly knowing that, "Hey, there's people that are actually going to read this, lots of them, and I will probably let some of them down." I mean, you know, the one thing, you mentioned all the positives, I mean, I would imagine you've probably been vilified a handful at times as well. Oh, yes. Oh, you would know, oh man, oh yeah. I can't believe that the rage, yeah, I pull people, although none of that, you know, when the name calling and you're horrible and all that stuff, you know, that actually doesn't bother me. What really bothers me is that I am constantly confronted with the tragic condition of people who can't read sarcasm, you know, and I'm just like, I don't understand how people, I will write the most hyperbolic, ridiculous, you know, over the top post and people think I'm serious, you know, and I'm like, I'm like, seriously, if I were serious, I mean, I would belong in jail. I mean, you can't, this is not, this is not right, but yeah, it was hard at first to deal with the hate. Now, now I'm kind of over it, but people get mean, you know, and what's directed at my family is when I start getting, start, that starts hurting, you know, and then I'm like, I wrote a piece about my son that was picked up by the Huffington Post. It was called Dear Son, I hope you stay soft and I purposely used that word soft because it's so loaded and there were some anti, some homophobe weirdo freaks that ended up writing some really horrible things about my son on Reddit threads and such things. And I, I almost vomited when I read it and I, those are moments where you go, what the fuck am I doing, you know what I mean? And it's definitely, none of it's straightforward, you know, none of it's clear. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny, my favorite two star review of my book, and I stopped reading the reviews after a while, one of them says, I hope this guy's a better surfer than he is a writer. Ooh. Yeah. It was like, okay, you know, was that really necessary? But yeah, I know what you mean. It's, it's interesting because you think, okay, well, I got to the point where I was like, it, I think I'd read Tim Ferris once he said, there's nothing that gives him more pleasure than deleting like an awful comment that clearly somebody has taken insane amount of time to write and not publishing it. Yeah. I have, you know, I used to be, you know, in the interest of authenticity and realness, you know, I've got my fist up, right? I would, I would publish anything that was written, but now if it's clearly a troll who's just writing horrible things about name, you know, name calling and calling my kids names and, and just horrible, horrible things, I just don't, I won't publish it, especially because they always write anonymously, you know, that irritates me. Yeah. Yeah, totally. If there's a shred of actual criticism in the comment, I will absolutely publish it even if it's among name calling, but, but if it's just that, that trade, that troll hatred, and I have stopped reading anything that's on, you know, anything that's published beyond my blog, I don't read the comments because I can't, I just can't do it. Yeah, I'm with you on that. It may be someday, but, but it's that separation, you know, that realization that I, I am not my writing, you know, I, they see my writing and that's, and I, and it's honest and it's real and it's coming for me and so in that sense, it's me, but once it's published, man, I don't, I don't have any claim to it. You know what I mean by that? Yeah. Well, you know, you're, you're speaking my language. I mean, we've had another writer here and she said, you know, our job is to get back to work and that's kind of my, I'm like, you know, I just, cool, you like it, you hate it. I'm getting back to work on my next book. Yeah. And I've had to, yeah. And I've had some senior writers really kind of snap me back into, you know, slap me back into, into reality, you know, which is just so awesome because I'm, I'm so new at all this, you know, I'm just kind of finding my way and I had one writer, novelist tell me like, do you really, do you really think you need to be responding and reading all these comments and doing all this stuff and getting all worked up about it and it just never occurred to me? But you're right. I mean, it, at some point we just have to work again, you know, and I, at this point, I can't respond to all the comments, although I would like to, there's too many. But it's interesting to make that very small audience of, of just people that kind of know them all to kind of the masses and that, and all that comes with that, you know, both the wonderful side of it, but also the holy shit, you know, how do I handle this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Just phenomenal, I, like, I knew it would be the second I landed on your about page. I was like, you know what? I have to get you here. I, I am really, really happy that you agreed. I can't thank you enough. So I have one last question for you, you know, for endless amounts of interviews, I've closed with the same question. I finally figured out how to close differently, you know, you know, our show is called the unmistakable creative and what landed you here is that your voice was unmistakable. So I'm going to close with my final question, which is in a world of this much noise, how do you become unmistakable, you know, for me, that's a really good question. I think, I think it's about a, for me at least, figuring out what it is that I've got to say, you know, like, I think everybody's got something to say, whether it's through their work or through their art or through being a mom or being a dad. I mean, I, I've got some friends, man, who are these like amazing, crafty, stay-at-home moms that you'd think, you know, we wouldn't get along at all. Like, they do everything that I can't do and, but that's their gig, right? Like, that's what they do. And I think just figuring out what story you've got to tell, you know, like, what's your thing? And then just stripping away all the judgment surrounding that, right? Like all the, all the ways, the noise, as you put it, that, that tells you that that's not good enough, or that's not interesting, or that's not acceptable, that's not what you should be, and just saying, fuck it. And just sort of owning what you are, however small you think it is, you know, because that authenticity is so powerful, even if it's this, this, you know, you're an amazing nitter, you're an amazing whatever, you know, you're super into music. That's what, to me, makes people unmistakable when they just own who they are and just give the world a middle finger, you know, which is funny because it's exactly what we're talking about back in high school, not making decisions about others. But it's like, I mean, because you met people like that, right? Like the super eccentric, so they just are who they are, and maybe they've never done a damn thing of interest, right? Yeah. But you meet them and you know you're meeting something and you're meeting somebody a mistake well, you know, you know you're witnessing something gorgeous and profound, because here's somebody who's just who they are. And to me, that's, that's what, that's what it's about. Amazing. I'm not even going to touch it. Janelle, I can't thank you enough for, for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights with our listeners here at the Unmistakable Creative. I mean, this is, this has been beautiful. I really have to say this has been one of my absolute favorite conversations I've ever had on the air. Seriously? Thanks, man. It really has. I mean, I, I, you know, I think I was telling my friends Sarah Peck the other day, I said, I have an intuitive sense at this point for what is a hit with our listeners, and I'm positive you're going to be a big hit. Oh, thank you so much. I was, I hadn't really ever, I've only, I've only ever talked on one other show. So I was a little nervous since I really appreciate you. I was like, why is he asking me? I really, I'm really flattered, man, and I, I really appreciate it. And for those of you guys listening, we will wrap the show with that. If you like what you heard, the greatest compliment you could give us is to share the show with a friend and let people know what you think by leaving a review on iTunes. Thanks for listening to the Unmistakable Creative. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important. 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Here are the highlights from our chat:

Why having no audience is great for practice your writing
Learning to approach your writing as if there is no audience
Growing up with Jesus and LSD side by side
The start of Janelle's journey into motherhood
Revealing the truth of what it is like to actually be a parent
A harsh look at failure, alcoholism, and drug addiction
Reaching a point where you have nothing left to prove
Learning to be completely ok with failure
Living life through the lens of an impostor syndrome
How music influenced Janelle's writing efforts
Reaching a point where you don't have a next move
Moving towards the most painful realities of who we are
Dealing what happens when we discover that the worst is true
The part of you that dies when you become a parent

Resources and People Mentioned

Dear Son, I hope you stay Soft

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