The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

The Dark Side of Ambition with Charlie Hoehn

Charlie Hoehn started his career by doing free work and landing amazing roles working with best selling authors and tech startups. He's worked as a marketing strategist and the director of special projects for Tim Ferriss. But his continual desire to become indispensable resulted in discovering the dark side of ambition.

How the desire to be the best in the world burned Charile out
What happens to us when we start to loose our work life balance
The workaholic culture that Sillicon Valley breeds
Why envy makes us start to question the gifts that we're born with
Paying attention to how the work you do makes you feel
The role that self awareness plays in recognizing your anxiety
How the thought of future success took Charlie to hitting a wall
Battling with the idea that you have to become permanently successful
Why learning to play is as important as sleep
The importance of allowing yourself to have guilt free fun
Why the happiest points in life are rarely about achievement
Viewing life as a series of opportunities to just have a fun
Why we need to say the world as a playground instead of people
Changing our social interactions through the process of play
Why playing is one of the most important productivity hacks
Knowing when to let go of big projects and making changes
The reason we only show our highlight reel
Learning to remove all the anchors that are causing stress
Getting rid of as many things as possible first before you add things

Resources and People Mentioned

How to Become Recession Proof (Our first interview with Charlie)

Play: How it Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination and Invigorates the Soul by Stewart Brown

How I Cured My Own Anxiety

Over the past few years Charile has worked with more than a dozen best selling authors to help market (and sometimes create) their books. His most recent book, which we discussed in this interview is Play it Away: A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety.

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Duration:: 1h 13m
Broadcast on:: 19 Feb 2014
Audio Format:: other

As you probably noticed this month, we're bringing you our "Life of Purpose" series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes, tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on help, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment. If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free "Life of Purpose" ebook. What you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose. I'm Sreeny Rao, and this is the Unmistakable Creative Podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who've started movements, built driving businesses, written best-selling books, and created insanely interesting art. For more, check out our 500 episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com. But uh, but a boom, sold. 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Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my hundredth mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. No. No. Honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15.00. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at midmobile.com/switch, whatever you're ready. $45 up from payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes of CDT.ales. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. Hydro is the state of the art at home rower that engages 86% of your muscles, delivering the ultimate full body workout in just 20 minutes. From advanced to beginner, Hydro has over 500 classes, shot worldwide and taught by Olympians and world class athletes. For a 30 day risk free trial, go to hydro.com and use code ROW450 to save $450 on a Hydro Pro Rower. That's H-Y-D-R-O-W.com code ROW450. Hey there, it's Greenie and Hambo, and we are back and better than ever. Got your answers is for sale. And if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life, this is the book for you. We take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them, settle them once and for all. Meanwhile, Hambo, what's your favorite part of the book? 100 sneaky Hambo trivia book. All that and a whole lot more. It's called Got Your Answers. It's available anywhere you get your books right now. Forging ahead together drives Colorado's pioneering spirit. At Chevron, we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the community's We Call Home. We also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer. All to help improve lives in our shared backyard. That's Energy in Progress. Visit Colorado.chefron.com. Charlie, welcome to The Unmistakable Creative. Thank you, Greenie. It's really nice to talk to you again. Yeah, it's my pleasure to have you back for a second time. I mean, you were here when we were called Blogcast FM. You gave us an amazing conversation about how to become a recession-proof graduate, which was actually one of our most popular conversations of 2013. I'll link that up for those of you guys listening. Really just an amazing bunch of insights. I mean, your name has come up so many times over multiple episodes after that. So when you emailed and said you're working on a new project, what would it be interesting to have in your back? I said absolutely, especially. I think we're going to talk about something today that a lot of us, we don't spend a lot of time thinking about. But so, Charlie, for people who may not know who you are, because we definitely have some new listeners, bring us up to speed on things and kind of how that has led to the conversation we're having today. Sure. So last time we talked, I believe, was mid-2013, I think, right? Yeah, I think it was the summer. Yeah, so basically my backstory has been I've worked with a number of best-selling authors and tech startups as their marketing strategist. And the main one was working as Tim Ferriss' director of special projects for a few years. Tim wrote the four-hour workweek, the four-hour body, the four-hour chef. I've also worked with guys like Tucker Max, Rameet Sethi. I did an internship with Seth Godin. But now I am doing my own thing. I just released my first book called "Play It Away, A Workaholic Secure for Anxiety." And the reason I wrote this book, instead of recession-proof graduate, was because this was about me overcoming the most painful, difficult, emotional period of my life, which was me being severely burned out. I burned myself out just working around the clock. And I had no idea that I was effectively creating my own anxiety. I didn't know why I felt like living death all the time. And that's what this book is about, is what it was like to work with those guys, how I burned myself out, and how I finally overcame it. All right, so there's a lot there. I think that it's really funny because we last had you here. It was kind of like, "Hey, listen to this guy, Charlie Hone, the recession-proof graduate, type A personality who has achieved everything that any one of us could have wanted." It's like, "Damn it, he was working for Tim Ferriss." I mean, you gave us so many gems. And I think it's really interesting that through this journey, you've come to sort of a self-realization that you've pushed your own limits a bit too far. So let's talk about this in more detail. I mean, you said really what this book is about. It's interesting that you totally abandoned one project to do another, but I think it seems like it was just almost necessary. I mean, you talked about what it's like to work for these guys because I think that when we hear something like, "Hey, Tim Ferriss is director of special projects." That sounds like, "Wow, Charlie has the coolest job in the world. That's the job that anybody would have killed for." But I think that we only see one side of it. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I was constantly asking for more responsibilities when I was working for Tim because I really wanted to be indispensable. I wanted to be the best in the world at my job. And I just wanted to accomplish things and become this hyper-efficient, productive entrepreneur like Tim. And so every time I've finished up a task, I would ask, "What else can I do to help?" And I would make suggestions on things that I could take over. And after a while, I was juggling all these different things. And we kind of jokingly said, "My title was director of other because I just did everything after a while or not everything, but a ton of different things that really fell all over the spectrum." But I got obsessed with working. And because I'm a type A personality, I think a lot of people really struggle with this. And especially now when we're all connected and constantly receiving notifications, I had such a hard time unplugging. Like, I couldn't unplug. Even when I went on family vacations, I was still strapped to my laptop the entire time because I wanted to catch everything. I never wanted something to slip through the cracks. I wanted to be great at my job. And I was staring at a computer screen up until 2am, checking my email at half a dozen times. And I was drinking coffee all day because I wanted to just be high energy and hide my fatigue. And yeah, so it was an amazing job that gave me all these amazing things and introduced me to all these incredible people. But no one really held up the mirror to me to say, "You don't have a work-life balance because all of my friends were kind of doing the same thing. That's the way it is in Silicon Valley." And the tech startup world is, coders take pride in programming around the clock and sitting in a chair all day indoors and never getting up. And that's just the culture there. And it's a really unhealthy, unnatural thing that has a real, at least for me, had a real impact on my mental health and emotional health. And I think that's something that we're breaking down. You mentioned this idea of wanting to be this hyper-effective, crazy entrepreneur like Tim. And I think that takes us back to something we were talking about right before we hit record here is that I think that somebody like Tim is just wired differently. And I tried to try to do what my business partner Greg Hartle does. It's like, "Walk out of your door with $10 and a laptop. I would fail. There's no question about it. I'm not that resourceful." But I think that we look at that and there's an insane amount of envy when we see something like that. And I think that makes us question the gifts that we're born with. And we think, "Okay, well, we don't have that and that's what we need to achieve." Even though there is no way that we will. I think, yeah, I totally agree. I think, you know, I think a lot of people in the tech world will compare themselves always to Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs will always be brought up because he's like the gold standard of the most accomplished entrepreneur like ever, right? Or the most influential. And we see all these guys and we want to outdo them in their realm in some capacity or we want to achieve as much as they have. And the thing is, is if you're doing that, then you're constantly striving to be the version of Tim Ferriss or the next version of Steve Jobs. But in reality, and this is really difficult to do, you should only be striving to be the best, most fun, happiest, most fulfilled version of yourself. And that requires turning inward and paying attention to how you feel when you do certain work. You know, a lot of people started going into blogging and lifestyle design because they saw Tim doing it. And it doesn't necessarily resonate because they're trying to, it was like you said, it was like a lot of people are like, "Yeah, let me teach you how to be the next Tim Ferriss." And that's a weird thing because only Tim Ferriss can teach people how to be Tim Ferriss and he's only really supposed to teach himself that. And yeah, so it requires a turning inward and paying attention to how you really feel when you do the work, how much it elevates you and lifts you up. And so many people I think are attracted to doing blogging and stuff for all the wrong reasons. And it really shows in their lackluster mediocre work, which is just copycatting other online marketers. Well, I mean, this I think brings up a whole other point for me. I mean, when you talk about sort of taking pride in your work, I mean, this can be sort of detrimental too because I mean, the thing is that you get to a certain point of success and I can tell you because it's interesting that we're having this conversation. Like, you know, we've had a steady stream of sort of successes all one after another. It was like, "Hey, the instigator experience sold out. Hey, you know, I got to be on Glenn Beck. Hey, we launched the unmistakable creative." And, you know, on the one hand, it's like, each one of these pieces of things is work that I'm incredibly proud of. And, you know, there are some of the highest standards of work that I've ever worked on, and yet they're causing anxiety for me in a way. Like, I realized in this the last few days, I said, exactly what you're experiencing, I feel that that's where I'm at right now. I'm like, "Why am I on the damn computer all the time?" And, you know, like, I'm not surfing as much as I had been in the past because I feel like I'm missing something all the time. I mean, I'm going through exactly what you're describing. And so that's a really sort of delicate balance, right? Because you're like, "Okay, part of what has led you to sort of where you're at is that attitude." And so you kind of, and then you kind of realize, "Okay, but if I keep at this pace and keep up with this attitude, it's going to basically send me into a downward spiral." Yeah, and the fact that you recognize that about yourself and about where this is heading is so critical. For me, I didn't recognize that. So, like, after I quit working for Tim, and the reason I quit working for Tim is that, like, we got through this huge event called opening the kimono. It was a seminar. It was really intense. And we started working on the four-hour chef, and Tim offered to double my salary if I got through that, which to me at the time, you know, I was feeling burned out for the first time after that seminar. But from my perspective, I was like, "Man, I'm so lucky." Like, you know, so many of my friends are either in jobs they hate or they're unemployed. I get to work on another cool project, this next prestigious project, and potentially be making more money than I'll know what to do with. And what is the worst that could happen? That was kind of what I was thinking. But, you know, I was still in that mentality of taking everything really seriously. This was the next step to my big success, this future success and this future prestige and this future riches. And I was feeling worse and worse. My hands wouldn't stop shaking. My eyes sunk back into my head. My forehead started developing these thick stress lines. And I felt like I was always on the verge of crying. But I couldn't. And I didn't understand what was wrong with me, so I tried to work my way through it. And this was why I quit was in one weekend, the deadline for the four hour chef got pushed back three months, then a family member of mine died and then a close friend attempted suicide. And I just hit such a hard emotional wall that I was like, "I can't do this anymore." So I quit. And I spent the next couple months desperately searching for another route to take because in my mind, I still hadn't recognized that I'd created this state of illness for myself where I just felt awful all the time. And I felt so guilty and so panicked that I wasn't working toward my next success and being productive. And so I felt like I needed to hit the next level of success in order for everybody to accept that I was permanently successful, permanently prestigious. And work was not fun for me. It was like an obligation and a means of getting rich and unnecessary evil. And the next thing I did was I worked at the startup. After a few months of feeling awful and being unemployed, I started working at this app startup with my friend Chad Moretta and Jason Adams. We did really well. We sold a couple million dollars worth of this product that we made. And we were working on our apps and I just realized after a couple months of that, I was doing it all for the wrong reasons I was doing it because I was chasing prestige and money and this feeling of success rather than actually doing it because I wanted to. Well, you know, it's interesting you bring up the idea of sort of future prestige, future success, and sort of cementing the idea that, "Hey, you know, I am the successful guy." I mean, it's really, because I think that especially for you at such a young age for your identity to be so shaped by something like, you know, working for Tim Ferriss is your first gig. That's not a normal experience. And I remember telling you this when we first spoke. But I think that one of the things that really to me in the last probably year or two, probably the last six to eight months that really kind of hit home was the idea that, like, our entire life is about diminishing permanence, right? There's nothing like Greg Hartle taught me this. Nothing is permanent. He said, you know, people live as if their current circumstances are going to always be their circumstances. Everything's disposable. Everything can fall apart. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, and I think that that, like, I think hanging onto that notion is such a source of anxiety for most people. I mean, it is for me all the time, I think. Like, you know, when something does well, like, my anxiety is driven by how do we keep it up? How do we keep maintaining a standard? How do you keep pushing? And it's funny because I'm recognizing so much of myself in what you're saying. Have you been taking time off to go surfing like you usually do? Well, we haven't had waves. It's funny you say that because there is, like, I can pinpoint my anxiety levels to the number of days I've been out of the water. The course is pretty much like spot on. Like I can say, I've been out of the water this many days. And anytime it's above 10, I'm usually in a pretty kind of like, you know, my mind has got potential to go in any number of directions usually downward. Yeah, I found the same thing. I can't pinpoint the number of days, but, like, that was the first, like, whoa, that I had the first, like, aha moment was just realizing, like, I just never had guilt free fun, like, I never played and did stuff that I love to do. And most people deprive themselves of that because, like I said, we're just always connected. We're always online and we think it's important and it's really addictive and it's super easy to sit in a chair all day. And it messes you up because you need that time off. Like, your brain shuts off. It's like sleep. When you're surfing, it's not like you're thinking about work. You're thinking about staying on the board and catching waves. It's rejuvenation. So, let's do this. Let's shift gears a little bit. You know, the thing that I think really what I'm seeing here is that there's a drastic mindset shift that occurs, right? When you go from, "Hey, I am this guy. I've worked on all these startups. I'm like, type A." And I honestly think making that mindset shift is easier said than done, right? Like, to think that you're not missing anything because I feel that sense of, you know, when I'm not connected and all that stuff, you know, I think that a lot of us do. But let's start talking about how you make this mindset shift so that you get back to that place of rejuvenation and that place of play so that the work is actually fun and you're not just constantly thinking about the next accolade or the next, you know, award. Right. Yeah. The mindset shift is actually surprisingly easy once you kind of process it. At least it was for me. I read this book called Play by Dr. Stuart Brown, and that was like when it hit me that I always felt guilty when I was having fun or doing something that wasn't related to work. But the mindset shift for me was realizing in order for me to feel healthy again, I had to allow myself to have guilt free fun and to play and do stuff that I actually wanted to do. To start, to me, I viewed life as like this really serious thing. Work was really serious. Work was like, could be as bad as slavery, you know, friendship was the social obligation. It wasn't like I didn't allow myself to be happy because I sucked the joy out of everything because I took everything so serious. I was so focused on succeeding and surviving. And as soon as I realized that life, you know, when I was growing up, I used to always just play with my friends. I used to always play on the backyard. We would, we'd play with a ball and like home run derby and catch and I realized like, you know, the happiest points in my life weren't when I achieved these amazing things with these really successful entrepreneurs. They were cool. The process was cool and it was interesting and exciting. But the happiest points in my life were when I was playing with my friends and bonding. And so just just going back and remembering that life was a series of opportunities to just have fun is was to me the biggest mental shift. Because then I could look at life. I could view it through the lens of the world is a playground. It's not a prison. And when I started viewing people, even people I didn't know like cashiers or waitresses as potential playmates. It transformed my interactions with them, you know, instead of viewing them as just like, oh, I have to interact with this person blah blah blah. And you know how many times do you do talk to somebody who's just like, oh, I'm not a people person. And it's like, we're all people persons because we're all people. And if you approach other people that you don't know and your friends as, you know, like this is another opportunity for us to have fun together and make jokes and just relax. Life becomes so much easier. And to me, like the common ground that could bring us together was was play. So the first major thing that really hit home for me was so like the day after I read that book. A friend introduced me to his buddy down in Austin, which is where I am now I had just moved to Austin. And he said, Hey, you should, you should meet my friend David. Here's an intro and David wrote back a few minutes later and he said, Hey man, do you want to grab coffee sometime it'd be great to chat. And I, because I was like thinking in terms of okay how can I play I just asked him to go play catch him a park. And he was like, yeah, let's do that. That sounds awesome. We went and did that. And when we did that, it was, it was so unique and different from what both of us were used to doing. And we just got to bond over this little game we didn't we weren't trying to subtly impress each other by talking about our accomplishments or anything that we had to enjoy each other's company on a summer day in the park. And it actually allowed us to hang out for a longer period of time and actually form a better relationship than you normally would with a person where you're just grabbing alcohol or grabbing caffeine with them. And so I just started applying this concept of how can I have every meetup or every interaction with a person be an opportunity to play to how can life be more of a series of opportunities to play the games that I want to play. And so I just started making a daily effort to incorporate play into my life I signed up for improv classes which I've been doing for the last six months. And yeah, just started playing regularly as often as possible and it brought my more than anything else that I tried to try to ton of things, but more than anything else play rejuvenated my mental and emotional health and brought me back to normal. It's funny you say that because I mean I think pretty consistently, you know, for those of you guys who know me or friends with me on Facebook, you'll see me almost if it's been a long time after the, you know, being out of the water. I'll actually my Facebook status every pretty consistently is nice to feel human again after 10, you know, back in the water after 10 days. Yeah, yeah exactly. And just doing just doing that like, you know, the exercise is obviously like a scientifically proven method for reducing anxiety and reducing stress and depression. But everyone looks at things of exercises, oh, I got to hit the treadmill, or oh, I got to go do a bunch of sit ups or I got to do P90 X and be miserable. And you're exercising, you're, you're doing your thing and you're having fun. So viewing exercise I think as like a means of playing and like actually doing something you really enjoy that's going to get your heart racing and potentially get you around your friends and having fun with them. I think that's like an important shift and, I mean, like you said, it makes you feel human again, it allows you to connect with people. You know, I mean, you keep mentioning the idea of guilt free fun, right? And I think that that is so hard for us to get our heads around. We had a guy named Eric Wall here who's a graffiti artist and he was telling me, he said, he said, he's like what you got to realize is when you're having this guilt free fun he's like when you go surfing or when somebody goes for a run. And he said, believe it or not, he said you are doing the best thing you could possibly do for your work because he said you're not just doing that he said you're hatching ideas you're being more creative. The juices flow. I mean, I've consistently noticed that pattern and anybody I've talked to there's something in their life that is very separate from their work, but that something is always sort of the driving force. And it's a fire that leads to all the creative endeavors. Totally 100%. I found the exact same thing happened to me like even after that catch meeting. I came back to my laptop and I felt light. And I was able to work faster and better. And my friends said the same thing like we would play a Robie which is like the flying disc, the flying rubber disc. It's like a Frisbee but it's not, it's a ring. We would play a Robie at the park and we would chase around after it. And my friends said the same thing because I told them like I feel so much better after I play, and that it bleeds into my work the lightness and the happiness and the creativity and the fun bleeds into my work. But if you're constantly working and never giving yourself an opportunity to have guilt free fun, like that guy said, it's destroying, it's destroying your work. Having fun is the best thing you can do for your productivity. And this is the paradox of play is it's actually like a hack for productivity. It's taking time off and it's the same with sleep. It allows your brain to recharge and reset itself because you're not constantly taking in all this digital information all the time. 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It's available anywhere you get your books right now. Forging ahead together drives Colorado's pioneering spirit. At Chevron, we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the communities we call home. We also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed, as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer. All to help improve lives in our shared backyard. That's Energy in Progress. Visit Colorado.chefron.com Yeah, no doubt. Let's do this. I want to talk a bit about making the shift from recession-proof graduate to this. It was like Charlie was working on this big thing, this project, this is what we know you for. Your identity online was, "Hey, this is the guy who knows how to make us all recession-proof." And you were a huge hit, like I said, on the show last time. I'm really curious. I want to talk a bit about loss aversion. You put so much work into a particular project and then you made a major pivot. And I think that, believe it or not, a lot of people are very terrified to do that. And I really want to talk to you about that process of saying, "Hey, I'm going to let go of this one thing." And I'm curious how the world is reacted to this and then how it's shaped everything else for you going forward from that point of hitting rock bottom almost. Sure. So I guess how the world reacted kind of overstates, I think, my significance on the internet. But I worked on a full version of recession-proof graduates since October of 2012. So a really long time. And I got, I think, July or August of 2013, and I was showing it to a number of my writer friends. And all of them said, the way the book was divided up, which we talked about in the last podcast was, it takes you from beginner to apprentice to veteran to pro. And veteran was arguably my favorite section because it talked about all the emotional difficulties that people go through when they're feeling burned out. And I think that is an inevitable part of the hero's journey of a career, so to speak. You know, you reach a point in the first few years you're in beginner and apprentice and eventually you're a seasoned veteran and you're ready to get out. And that's what that section was about. And all of them said, this section is really good. It doesn't belong in this book. What you're trying to teach people is how to get the job that they want and to start building the lifestyle. You're not trying to get them through the emotionally difficult part. That's a different book. And, and I was bummed because that was my favorite section. So, I wrote an essay because I was like, well, I'm going to have to throw this stuff away or repackage it in some, some way. So, I posted an essay called how I cured my anxiety on my blog and that took off. And, like, well over 100,000 people read it. It was number one on Google for a long time for the search curing anxiety, like above Oprah.com. Wow. Yeah. And it really took me by surprise. Like, I knew the piece was good and unique and I'd read a ton of anxiety literature. So, I knew like it was a really personal thing that just isn't commonly seen. And, but that kind of validated the fact that, hey, there are a lot of people suffering in silence and like I did for a really, really long time. And a lot of them are really desperate for help and they're not getting it because, you know, they'll visit a doctor and the doctor's like, here's some benzos that you can get on for 30 days and possibly get addicted to. And it's the same with a bunch of other books where they say, here are some supplements I recommend and it's their supplements, you know, they're profiting from them. So, it's really frustrating for anxious people because there's so many people, so many products out there that are just trying to take advantage of them and anxious people are already paranoid to begin with. So, it's really, really aggravating and disheartening. So, I wrote that post and it took off and I realized how much more important that was, I think, to people suffering than getting a career, you know, it's just like regaining your mental health and being okay with being alive. You know, this was something that was so deeply meaningful and personal to me that I knew I had to write it and so I put recession proof graduate on the back burner, even though I'd been working on it for a year, because I was like, I know I can make this book in a very short period of time. I'll self-publish it, I'll get it out, and when I'm ready, I'll return to the other one, but this was such a rewarding book to make because it's about play, it's about fun. And it's just a really positive message that, you know, I struggled while writing a recession proof graduate because, you know, I was just like, this was stuff I did years ago, you know, it's weird to be looking at it now. Even though, like, I have a lot to say, it's just not really where my head is, you know, now I'm much more about approaching work and life and everything as a game that you would willingly play. You're getting the opportunity to shape your game, and you're making a choice to play that game. So, I think I needed to write this one before recession proof graduate came out because looking through that lens is really important. And frankly, I was just burned out on writing a recession proof graduate, and especially when everyone said I needed to take out that big section, I was like, great, I have to rewrite the book now because it doesn't make any sense in the last half. Yeah. Well, you know, I think that I love that you brought up this idea of being okay with being alive, and man, I mean, that's, I think that's so lost from the culture that we live in. You know, because you'd like, you know, I always say this, you look on Facebook all day and I mean, it's like a race to see who can accomplish more who can ship something bigger who can do something more epic it's like, you know, who's, you know, who's going to one up me today. Right, and it can be really depressing for people, and I actually wrote about this in my last post is like, you know, I, my improv teacher in a class told me she's like you come across as really self assured like even in scenes where you're panic or distressed and you still kind of have it together. And I was thinking about that and I was just like, man, it's got to be really unrelatable for a lot of people or even insufferable on some level whether they say it or not. But to see my, my like about page that only contains my list of highlights, you know, and that's what Facebook is it's a highlight reel. And if they only see that they didn't see, you know, how much I suffered the panic attacks I had, or the moments where I cried so hard I was shaking. Right about that stuff and so, like, but I really respect people who are transparent about that stuff and vulnerable. And it's, it's really hard for us because we're so isolated from each other, even though we're all connected, you know, we're interacting with each other through a screen all the time it's like looking out into the world through an aquarium. And I think a lot of people feel very lonely and not connected and making that effort to open up about that stuff gives people permission to let down their wall and to remove their facade and to recognize that all of us go through these intense periods of pain and insecurity and lack, lack of confidence and failure, and it's okay. We were, we can still get through it together if you make that effort to connect. And I don't see that enough and that's, that's really what drove me crazy when I was growing up is, you know, this, I hated seeing adults being like, everything's okay, everything's okay. And then when something really messed up would happen, they'd sweep it under the rug, they wouldn't talk about it. Or like, something that filled me without end, like, or anger or sadness was just like not talked about. And I just craved truth, I craved honesty, which is why I really got into stand-up comedy for a while because I was like, these people can talk about the truth and not get in trouble, this is amazing. So I've always really valued people who can express truth and vulnerability in a way that makes us laugh. So let's do this. I want to take a step back to something. I mean, you, because I know people are going to ask this and people must be thinking, you know, you said you wrote a post about how to cure your own anxiety or how you cured yours and I know you brought up play a little bit. But I want to dig a little bit deeper into this, because I'm sure people are wondering how, you know, how can they do, you know, what steps can they take to cure their own anxiety. Yeah, are you asking, is that the question? Yeah. Okay. So, the first, the first big breakthrough that you need to have in order to, for everything else that follows to really work is to look at the world as a series of opportunities to have fun, not a prison to think of the world as a playground. And every anxious person thinks of the world as like a prison, it's a very scary place and people are out to get them and things are going to go bad. The future is going to be doom and gloom and awfulness, but that's not the reality. The reality is all you have is right now. And right now is an opportunity to have fun. So that's the first major thing. And in the book, I give like a four week plan, but I'll just go through them right now. So in the first week, I think the most useful exercise you can do is something I like to call removing your anchors. And the way I describe that is just imagine you're a boat in the middle of a lake. And you want to get to the other side of the lake where there's peace and happiness and joy. But in the middle of the lake, you're sitting in this boat that has all these anchors attached to it. And you can either row as hard as you possibly can to desperately get to that happiness and peace. Or you can stop and remove the anchors first. And anchors are basically just stressors that you deal with on a daily and weekly basis, these things that constantly put you into a state of emotional strain and panic and fear and worry. And like for me, my biggest ones were my biggest anchors were fear of getting attacked. I was really afraid that some event would take place where I would get mugged or my neighbors would turn against me or like, just, you know, I was worried about my own survival. And the thing that I realized was actually putting me in that state that was actually causing that stressor that anchor was the fact that I was consuming information that was inducing that fear that was stating this is the reality that's coming. This is the future is really doom and gloom apocalyptic. And so I became scared of everything. And when the exercise I did that made me realize this was I wrote down everything that I was worried about. I sat down with a pen and piece of paper, and I wrote down everything I worried about on a daily and weekly basis. And then I circled the biggest one and two things, which were fear of getting attacked and fear of having a panic attack. And then I came up with potential solutions I could test to eliminate or severely reduce those stressors. So removing those anchors basically. And the thing that I came up with to remove the fear of getting attacked was stop consuming the news altogether. Replace it with happy, joyful, peaceful, fun content, like, like, you know, fun books and uplifting songs. And every time I saw the news, I would turn away, or I would block it, or I just wouldn't click it. Because the news, their incentive is to basically scare you into clicking, right? You've had Ryan holiday on. Yeah, so you know, like, the news is lying to you all the time because they need money from their ads. They need you to see their ads. So I removed the news. And within, like, a week or two, I was just feeling so much more calm because I was only consuming information that reinforced a positive reality. And what we don't think about is, like, the information we consume is how our brain gets fed. It's a diet, you know, and if you're consuming anything that comes in, anything scary, like horror movies or porn or books by cynical authors that are hateful, like Bill O'Reilly or reality shows. This is junk food for your brain. And it's going to make you scared and unsettled and angry. And so you need to clean up your diet for for your brain, basically, and change your thoughts. And you're not going to miss anything. I guarantee it. If something really important happens, you will hear about it. Yeah, I always say a World War three starts. Somebody will somebody will notify you. Right. Like, you don't need to be obsessing over stuff that has no bearing on how you approach your life in the moment right now. The news doesn't give you anything useful that you can use almost ever. Yeah. It's interesting you're bringing up the information diet because, I mean, we had Sean Acor, who's a happiness researcher here. And he talked a lot about this. I mean, for those of you guys who haven't heard that, he talks about, I remember in his book, The Happiness Advantage, and I'll link this interview for those of you guys listening. If you haven't heard it, it's definitely worth a listen. He actually talks about how something as simple as watching Five Minutes of the Daily Show, or like even a minute and a half, like a daily show clip, or something funny makes a world of difference in how you process the world around you. Yeah, yeah, if you if you absolutely need the news, do it through the cold bear report, like at least laugh about it because if you're mocking reality, you can't take yourself or the world too seriously. You know that it's an opportunity to have fun and to make it into a game. And you're just poking fun at all these people who take themselves way too seriously. So that was the first big one. That was the first anchor. The second one, like I said, was a fear of having a panic attack. I noticed that, you know, this is something that anxious people really struggle with that are really desperate to get under control. And this is something I can definitely help with so the thing that I noticed was the sensations that preceded a panic attack were like the jitters, a quivering voice, a rapid resting heart rate. And when I started focusing on these things, I would obsess about, you know, my health and worry about my health. And then I'd worry something really bad was about to happen. And before you know it, what happens when you have a panic attack is your brain tells you you're going crazy and that you're going to die. It's this vicious loop. It sounds like it's being played through loud speakers in your, in your mind, and it's overwhelming and it's terrifying. And it feels like you're having a heart attack. And one of the things that helped the most with my fear of having a panic attack was eliminating coffee for one week. I just tried it and I replaced it with water. It made such a world of difference. I didn't realize it, but I was running around like tweak on South Park. You know, I was having three to four cups of coffee a day. I was wondering why I felt awful. And it was just this steady intake of stimulants that I was using to hide how chronically tired I felt. And you know, it's, it's crazy to me looking back on it how much I was actually having. You know, so many people drink these energy drinks and coffee, and they take stimulants all the time, or drugs, marijuana, and they think they're using it to calm themselves down. And even alcohol can do this too. If you're constantly taking in the stimulants or depressants, these chemicals are getting into your bloodstream and they're circulating throughout your entire body, including your brain. It affects you on a deep level and we tend to miss the most obvious stuff that's right in front of us. So I removed caffeine and that had a huge impact. There's also a number of other things you can do to help with panic attacks like to prevent them. I would recommend, you know, if you feel like you're about to have one, just drink like two big cups of water and doing like three seconds between each and all. Because that's going to, it's like breathing into a paper bag, you know it, it studies your breathing and hydrates you at the same time, which can often be a problem. There are a few other things, but those are those are two really easy ones I think that everyone should try. So the first week in getting back to normal is basically removing the sources of stress that are constantly putting you into a state of panic. And making a conscious effort to come up with a simple solution to to eliminate that anchor and to assess how you feel at the end of the week and see if it actually worked. And if it didn't try something else. It's funny, you may have made a case for me to, I don't know if I'm going to ditch the coffee entirely. It's funny as you're talking about this. There's a huge coffee cup right on my desk. But you may have made the case for me to drink smaller cups of coffee. Like, we have, you know, it's funny because we have a stack of coffee cups in our cupboard. And I always pick the biggest one because all the others are too small. I'm like, I can't start with just that, but maybe I may have to see if I can wean myself off. I think you may be a case for it. It's, it's something to at least try just to see how you feel after a week. What I found now is like, I can drink a half cup of coffee before I start getting the jitters. And if I stick to that amount, I feel fine. And a lot of it obviously has to do with the quality of the beans and like the chemicals and stuff. But generally speaking, I found I can have in everybody's tolerance is different. You know, I'm 185 pounds, six foot two. But I can only have a half cup of coffee before I start feeling jittery and weird. Well, it's funny, right? I mean, it's so strange that in like a biohacking obsessed world that you've taken this tack. Like, I think it's, it's a refreshing perspective. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I'm really big on what can you get rid of first before you start trying to add everything in and just looking at just taking an honest assessment of what is going into your body and your bloodstream on a day to day basis. That could be impacting you. I mean, one of my, one of my friends actually, she had really bad anxiety. And she noticed one day she had three diet sodas within a few hours. Her blood was always filled with aspartame, which, you know, I would argue is effectively poison that's 100% legal. And that can cause really bad anxiety for a lot of people. Same with nicotine. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important. Life insurance. Why? Because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage, credit card debt. It can even help fund an education. And guess what? Life insurance is probably a lot more affordable than you think. In fact, most people think life insurance is three times more expensive than it is. So with state farm life insurance, you can protect your loved ones without breaking the bank. Not sure where to start? State Farm has over 19,000 local agents that can help you choose an option to fit your needs and budget. Get started today and contact a state farm agent or go to statefarm.com. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like to do the opposite of what Big Wireless does. They charge you a lot. We charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right. We're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. Expand the way you work and think with Claude by anthropic. Whether brainstorming solo or working with the team, Claude is AI built for you. It's perfect for analyzing images and graphs, generating code, processing multiple languages, and solving complex problems. Plus, Claude is incredibly secure, trustworthy, and reliable, so you can focus on what matters. Curious? Visit claud.ai and see how Claude can elevate your work. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. Hydro is the state-of-the-art at-home rower that engages 86% of your muscles, delivering the ultimate full-body workout in just 20 minutes. From advanced to beginner, Hydro has over 500 classes shot worldwide and taught by Olympians and world-class athletes. For a 30-day risk-free trial, go to hydro.com and use code ROW450 to save $450 on a Hydro Pro Rower. That's H-Y-D-R-O-W.com code ROW450. Hey there, it's Greenee and Humbo, and we are back and better than ever. Got your answers is for sale. And if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life, this is the book for you. We take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them, settle them once and for all. Meanwhile, Humbo, what's your favorite part of the book? 100 sneaky Humbo trivia question. All that and a whole lot more. It's called Got Your Answers. It's available anywhere you get your books right now. Forging ahead together drives Colorado's pioneering spirit. At Chevron, we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the communities we call home. We also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer. All to help improve lives in our shared backyard. That's Energy in Progress. Visit Colorado.chefron.com Wow, really just sort of mind-blowing stuff. I mean, it's such a sort of shift from where we were at, you know, I think probably eight months ago when I was talking to you about, you know, how do you deal with the world around us? How do we get ahead? And it's funny. I think that we're really what we're seeing, and I've talked about this in the show before, is almost a collective shift in consciousness as a society, as entrepreneurs. I mean, because I think what we're seeing is within the ecosystem, we have to actually have these things. Otherwise, the entire thing will just fall apart like we're going to implode. I mean, I see versions of it, and I look at it, and I'm like, you know, you were talking about in Silicon Valley, it's almost a thing of pride to work 80 hours. When somebody tells me, it's like, oh, I worked 80 hours this week. I said, you know, my immediate response is, you don't work hard. You suck at managing time. Or you're an addict. Yeah, you need to get that under control. The addiction is really one of those things. I mean, it's funny you bring up this because I, you know, I think I was, you know, out and about all day yesterday, which is why we weren't able to speak. And I realized, I thought, how many times did I check my email? And I was like, I really need to delete this app from the phone, because there were, I mean, I could have really, I could have come to the computer and done it all in one go. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think what helps a lot, and it's, this is by far the most difficult is like setting office hours for yourself. And this is another one that I've found to be tremendously helpful when I can really stick to it for a number of days is not looking at screens past like 9pm. If you plan on going to sleep at around 10, 10, 30 or, or later, don't look at screens, because even if you're checking, you know, even if you're just passively watching Netflix winding down with a movie or YouTube or texting your friends and Facebooking. It's physically waking you back up, because it's completely unnatural to have sources of light staring at you in the face past a certain point in the evening, it's foreign, and it's waking your brain back up. So if you can make, make it a policy, and I like this one app that I discovered called commit, I think it's like two or three bucks, but it basically is it just asks you, did you turn off, you know, you can set it to say whatever you want, but mine says, did you stop looking at screens. And it comes on at 9pm and I just tap in, yep, and validate it and it keeps track of the number of days that I do that. And it's just, it's helpful, but yeah, people don't realize like, oh man, I have such a tough time sleeping. Well, you're waking yourself back up when your body's trying to unwind. Well, it's funny you say that I even, I even, I think I advocate starting the day now. Like, you know, I've been obsessed with reading books on Kindle or on my iPad for a very long time because I could read them so much faster. And now I actually, I start my day by reading physical books like I literally, that's the first thing I do. I mean, I think you guys are listening, you heard Danny Shapiro mention it, she says, don't start your day in front of the computer. Because that actually is really, I don't even think that's natural, like to sit down at a computer first thing in the morning. Yeah. And I think it could be, you know, both sides of it. And I found that that's been tremendously valuable for me. Totally. I think one of the, I've kind of fallen out of this routine, but it was really, really helping me when I was feeling super anxious was just sitting for 10 minutes. And just focusing on breathing. And obviously that's, that's meditation and a lot of people are kind of uncomfortable with that or they, they feel like they're bad at it. The key to meditation, at least for me, was just recognizing my thoughts as, I started thinking of my thoughts as like a room full of obnoxious people that were trying to wind me up. And I just got annoyed with them. Or I used to let them like really get to me. And, and basically I just was like fed up with them. And I just let them do their thing, no matter how unsettling or crazy or not, not peaceful, the thought was, it was just a thought, you know, it's just something in my brain. And so not resisting that, just getting comfortable with thinking of your thoughts is like, this is background noise, just returning to your breathing, observe the thought, and it's okay. That really helps. And if you do that right after you wake up, you can actually, you know, like you said, I think it's, I think it's spot on to not get on the computer first thing in the morning. A lot of people don't have that discipline, it's really. Well, and it takes, it takes work, but I noticed that it took me about four or five days in a row, I would just walk into the room that we have. And I wrote about this on medium. I basically, I had a post titled the virtues of pen and paper in a digital era. Yeah, I love that. And, and I really, honestly, I mean, I think there's more to it than just creativity. I mean, that is that one, now that honestly is probably one of my favorite parts of the day when I'm just sitting here in our library with a moleskin and some books and a pen. And I'm like, totally, everything is so peaceful. Right. And there's actually, I forget the name or the word for this, but I think the Vinci had, there's some Latin word that talks about the importance of connection of the hand to the mind. And you don't get that with typing on a screen, and it's so easy to get distracted by other stuff. But when you are forcing yourself to just face down a blank sheet of paper with your pen, it's, it's really pure and much more emotionally powerful. So, like one of the things that I was actually doing, because I was so critical of myself and so hard on myself, which none of my friends or my family were that way. So one of the things that I was doing once a week was I was writing down everything that stressed me out, of course, for like the remove your anchors exercise, but I would, after I did that, I wrote, I wrote them all down. And then I would write a sentence that said, I'm glad I'm blank, because blank. So I'm glad I'm experiencing this stressor because I would force myself to come up with like a reason that I was grateful to experience that. Like no matter how ridiculous it seemed or whatever, it was just a practice of gratitude and looking at my world as like, you know, just it was just practicing being a better friend to myself, which I think is a really useful and easy and powerful exercise that anybody can do. Awesome. Well, Charlie, you were almost in an hour. This has been amazing. As I expected it would be. I mean, as always, it's always a pleasure. Yeah. I mean, you know, I always know, I mean, like I said, after we had the last time, it was kind of an old brainer. So, you know, I am in a close with my final question. And I want to ask you something a bit different than I did last time, especially given the name change of our show and everything, you know, as I said, you know, people have probably heard me ask this by now, but our show is called the unmistakable creative and in a world of so much noise, which I realize is an ironic question given our chant, our chat. How do you become unmistakable. Unmistakable. I think it starts from your, I think it starts from what you most want, reaching your most inner self. Like, for me, the best work I've always done has come from figuring out my biggest source of pain, figuring out a solution. I don't have unmistakable. It's kind of challenging. I mean, I don't want to BS your audience too much here. So, like, I was trying to think like, maybe I can read this wave, this, this thought out unmistakable. I think, I don't know, just just working on being your most authentic self, just being open and honest and vulnerable. I honestly, that, that has made me, that has made my relationships and my work so much better is just opening up and giving everyone around me a more honest portrayal of who I really am, including the dark side and the vulnerabilities in the ugly spots. I am in a really good relationship right now with an amazing girl. And we have, like, open communication out the wazoo, basically because, which is a weird way of saying it, but it's basically because we're both making the effort to just be completely honest about who we are, even the ugly stuff and the angry stuff. And it's, I can't tell you how much just being honest and open and realizing that everyone else has these feelings and weird messed up thoughts too, has changed my life and made my relationships better. I think, and made my work better. So, I don't know if that makes you unmistakable, but it's what came to mind. Awesome. Well, Charlie, as I said, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and, you know, share this part of your story with our listeners. I think that people are really going to learn a lot from this and hopefully it really, you know, this has been really moving for me and I just have learned so much talking to you as I did the first time as well. So thank you again for coming back and being a guest here on the Unmistakable Creative. Yeah, it's the honors online. Thank you again, Srini. This was great. Cool. And for those of you guys listening, we'll wrap the show with that. If you like what you heard, the greatest compliment you could give us is to share the show with a friend and let people know what you think by leaving a review on iTunes. Thanks for listening to the Unmistakable Creative. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important, life insurance. Why? Because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage, credit card debt, it can even help fund an education. And guess what? Life insurance is probably a lot more affordable than you think. In fact, most people think life insurance is three times more expensive than it is. So with state farm life insurance, you can protect your loved ones without breaking the bank. Not sure where to start? State Farm has over 19,000 local agents that can help you choose an option to fit your needs and budget. Get started today and contact a state farm agent or go to statefarm.com. If there's one thing that my family and friends know me for, it's being an amazing gift giver. I owe it all to Celebrations Passport from 1800flowers.com, my one-stop shopping site that has amazing gifts for every occasion. With Celebrations Passport, I get free shipping on thousands of amazing gifts, and the more gifts I give, the more perks and rewards I earn. To learn more and take your gift giving to the next level, visit 1800flowers.com/acast. That's 1800flowers.com/acast. Expand the way you work and think with Claude by anthropic. Whether brainstorming solo or working with a team, Claude is AI built for you. It's perfect for analyzing images and graphs, generating code, processing multiple languages, and solving complex problems. Plus, Claude is incredibly secure, trustworthy, and reliable, so you can focus on what matters. Curious? Visit claud.ai and see how Claude can elevate your work. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. Hydro is the state-of-the-art at-home rower that engages 86% of your muscles, delivering the ultimate full-body workout in just 20 minutes. From advanced to beginner, Hydro has over 500 classes, shot worldwide and taught by Olympians and world-class athletes. For a 30-day risk-free trial, go to hydro.com and use code ROW450 to save $450 on a Hydro Pro Rower. That's H-Y-D-R-O-W.com code ROW450. Hey there, it's Greenie and HEMO, and we are back and better than ever. Got your answers is for sale. And if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life, this is the book for you. We take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them, settle them once and for all. Meanwhile, HEMO, what's your favorite part of the book? 100 sneaky HEMO trivia question. All that and a whole lot more. It's called Got Your Answers. It's available anywhere you get your books right now. Forging ahead together drives Colorado's pioneering spirit. At Chevron, we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the community's we call home. We also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer. All to help improve lives in our shared backyard. That's Energy in Progress. Visit Colorado dot chefron.com. Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity? Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel? We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI world, and this is more than just a guide. It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch. 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