The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Feed The Ecosystem: Why Artists Can’t Survive on Free Content

In this backstage episode we have a discussion on whether or not consumers have a responsibility to support artists. Here are a few of the highlights from our chat:

Revisiting last week's episode on the All or Nothing Internet
Why It may not matter who the Haves and Have Nots Are
The power of showing up every single day
How little habits bleed into bigger ones
The first disagreement that Greg and Srini have on air
The question of whether consumers have a responsibility to support art
The responsibility of the artists to produce work that's worth paying for
A discussion on the importance of feeding our ecosystem

Resources and People Mentioned

The Unmistakable Curator/Writer Position

The All or Nothing Internet

The Great Debate: Does Talent Matter?

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Broadcast on:: 14 Feb 2014
Audio Format:: other

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We take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them, settle them once and for all. Meanwhile, Hembo, what's your favorite part of the book? 100 Sneaky Hembo trivia question. All that and a whole lot more. It's called Got Your Answers. It's available anywhere you get your books right now. Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and t-shirts. Warning, Bombas are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes. Sorry, do we legally have to say that? No, this is just how I talk and I really love my Bombas. They do feel that good, and they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to Bombas.com/acast and use code ACAST for 20% off your first purchase. It's BOMBAS.com/acast and use code ACAST at checkout. All right, everybody, this is Srini. Welcome to another backstage episode of The Unmistakable Creative. I am here with my co-host Greg Hartle. What's going on, Greg? Oh, I just live in the dream, man, live in the dream. My dream has now become I'm stabbing myself in the stomach with needles on a regular basis because my body can't reproduce red blood cells. That's part of living the dream, right? I don't know about that, but you want to tell us what that's all about? That sounds kind of funny. At a context, it's like, what the hell are these guys talking about? Yeah, so for those, for the listeners who are unaware, I have been experiencing challenges with my kidney transplant coming up on 10 years, actually, in a couple months, which is pretty crazy. But part of that process is my kidney cannot generate the hormone that generates red blood cells. So my red blood cell count is very low. Actually I was asking the doctor yesterday, I said, "So when is it a problem?" And she's like, "Oh, it's well beyond a problem." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So she's like, "Yeah, you'd be in the hospital if you weren't as healthy as you are otherwise." I was like, "Oh, okay." So we're trying to prevent a blood transfusion. And the way I prevent a blood transfusion right now is I stab myself in the stomach with a needle and inject that hormone into my body. And hopefully that will help regenerate the red blood cells. So other than that, you know, I think that's fantastic. Other than that, yeah, I love how you're so matter-of-fact about it. It's kind of fitting considering the guests that we've had earlier in the show this week. I mean, we had Alex from Super Size Me, you know, she was a co-creator and a lot of stuff related to how we treat our bodies and then we had America's angriest trainer. So a lot of stuff related to health and body here. But before we get into like the gist of the episode, there's a couple of things we want to talk about. Some of you know possibly that we are looking to hire somebody that we want to bring to our team. And we haven't been able to find that person and we realize we're like, "Well, why haven't we told our listeners?" We know some of you don't follow us on Facebook, you know, some of you aren't connected to us on Twitter or wherever on the web, but a lot of you listen to us. And so we want to tell you a little bit about what we're looking for, and then we'll tell you how to apply. But Greg, you want to talk a little bit about our curator position that we want to have join our team? Yeah, it's real simple. We're looking for somebody amazing, unmistakable, awesome, creative, cool, easy to work with, fun to get along with, you know, every day, run-of-the-mail type of person. No, but what we're looking to really hire is an unmistakable curator/writer to help us write a newsletter, you know. What we've come to realize is that in the tech world, in the tech community, there's plenty of opportunity for people in the industry to stay on top of their industry in quick, easy ways. There's all sorts of publications, blogs, et cetera, dedicated to the tech industry. In the corporate world, it's the same thing. I mean, there's even television shows and television networks dedicated to keeping you up to date on the corporate world if you're a corporate executive. But in the creative world, in the world that you and I live in, we kind of all help each other out by pointing each other in the direction of each other and saying, "Hey, this person's doing this. This person's doing that." But there's no real curated place to know what's going on in the creative world and not done in an easy-to-consume way and in a way that's fun and interesting. So what we're hoping to create is a newsletter that people can subscribe to to stay up to date on what's going on in the creative entrepreneurial world on a regular basis. And we're really looking for somebody to head up that position and take charge of it and help us grow and build a new part of our brand. And you can find out more about it at unmistakableintern.tumbler.com. We have the entire job description there and we have exactly what we want from people who apply. So definitely visit that. We'll also link that up in the show notes as well. We'd love to hear from you guys. I mean, those of you listening know our community, you know, you know our brand. So we think that this may be the most ideal place for us to turn to, to find somebody who really is a strong fit for this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of listeners out there that fit this description and would be fun to work with. So if, if that's you, check it out, unmistakableintern.tumbler.com and hit us up. Absolutely. Well, let's do this. So we're going to review last week's feedback. Last week's feed, you know, episode on the all or nothing internet. Quite a conversation starter. I definitely think that we pissed some people off. A lot of people agreed. I think that, you know, we, in my opinion, we called out something that's happening that a lot of people don't want to acknowledge exists. So let's look at the feedback. You know, our friend care wrote in from Alaska. I think you guys are on the right track, you know, especially about the all or none, not available or the person is not literate in the all. It's amazing in Alaska where you can get what, what, you know, what you can get in Alaska. Internet services lively. And by the way, Srini or a wimp, it's 80 miles per hour today with temps in the teens. And Boston and the Northeast has more snow than we do. So I mean, you know, I think Alaska is a great example, Greg, based on your whole experience when you went there of sort of this strange distribution, you know, I think that we think that the whole world is connected to an iPhone. Yeah, I mean, I've been plenty of places in America in the last three years that aren't even close, you know, they're, they're far behind the curve, the technology curve, which is a big factor, you know, which is a big factor on this idea that, you know, anyone can just set up shop, set up the internet and, you know, take away all the gatekeepers and do whatever they want to do and be whoever they want to be. I think that that's a bit naive in that thinking. All right. So Scott writes in and Scott actually probably was one of the people that really, I remember he even said to a son as a note personally, he said, you know, he said, he said, I wasn't sure what it was, but something really pissed me off about that episode. And I love this because he actually disagreed with it. So the power of the internet driven connection economy is that it levels the playing field by allowing ordinary or non-picked people to do extraordinary things to compare it to a middle classless third world country with a chasm that separates the haves and the have knots as a faulty analogy, who is to judge the haves, the successful ones. A star on the walk of fame takes talent and a man on the moon genius, but a blog that matters only a sincere desire to make a difference. That's a great line, by the way, yeah, that is a great line. I have mixed feelings about this, Scott. I think extraordinary people do extraordinary things. I'm not sure about ordinary people doing extraordinary things. I'll have to give that some more thought, but I agree with him on the one premise that he says, who is to judge who are the haves and the have knots? That's actually a great point. Now, I was making the case in terms of the ability to generate income. But that's not everyone's measure. And by no means is that a lot of people's measures who are just creating stuff on the internet for fun or for some meaningful purpose way beyond money. So I think Scott brings up a good point in that this conversation has to be driven also by how we define what is, quote unquote, successful or not on the internet. Yeah, that's a tough one, right? Because everybody comes to it for something different. I mean, for some people, they're completely happy lingering obscurity and having a blog that nobody will ever read, but they get something from it. Yeah, and by the way, it's not necessarily that no one will ever read even because Scott also brought up, I think it was Scott, if I remember correctly, who brought up the idea of the small army, right? So even if even if 100 people read your blog, but it's impactful to them and it's meaningful to them and it's meaningful to you that it's meaningful to them and you have a relationship with them, well, then you win, then you're successful. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a very good point. So it's funny because our debate about talent still seems to be generating a lot of comments from people. So this is, but you know, this is, you'll like this one. The horse has been beaten to death, but I feel like I need to be the first person to say Greg is completely right regarding focus efforts to be good at one thing. In my short career as an auditor, cloud software, implementer, adventure, travel agent, and digital marketer, I've seen how fun it is to dabble yet how much the switching costs can slow you down to finding success. Thanks for the soapbox guys. Keep up the great work. That's from Travis. Travis. I love you. I knew you would. That's all I got. All right. Well, Travis, definitely keep writing in. Love it. You know, you always have a soapbox here. And for any of you guys listening, consider this Friday segment, the listener soapbox. You can always write into us at unmistakablecreative.com/contact. All right, we got another one here. Hi Srini and Greg, it would be far easier to keep quiet and pretend everyone is making six figures on the Internet and just tell everyone to keep working. It will happen any day now. And she said, you know, this is from Mary. She says, "The people who have helped me the most are not those who excel at self-promotion or who make perfect videos. They're the people who have been through hell and live to tell the tale. The people who inspire me are the ones who have the courage to be honest, tell their stories to struggle. The world needs healing and what heals is the truth. The truth hardly ever makes people popular fast. There's a reason for that." Wow, you know, I cannot disagree. I agree with that point, Mary, and I have, you know, I always have mixed feelings on this because there's a strong part of me that wants to support people's efforts. And then there's another part of me that is constantly in the back of my mind thinking, am I being irresponsible by doing so? And I don't know where that fine line is, you know, the idea, "Oh, keep working. It'll happen for you any day now," type of line, where there's a part of me that wants to say that to people. And then there's another part of me that I think I might be contributing to their misery by doing that. And I don't know what the answer is. Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, I think that you really, you've kind of shined a light on it for me. And I have to admit, I am sort of the optimistic nature. I've always wanted to believe that anybody could put pen to paper and eventually what would come out of the other side, if they worked that at long enough, would be good. And you know, and I've sat down with our mutual friend, Willie Jackson, and he says, "Yeah." And he said, "But there's a lot of lousy stuff that has become successful just by sheer, you know, persistence, stuff that honestly most of us wouldn't consider good. And nobody will say as bad publicly, just because a person's presence is so big." Yeah, that's a good point as well. I mean, a lot of times, I mean, if you're just, if you just show up, there's so few people that show up in the world. I mean, really, there's so few that show up consistently in the world that in actuality, if you do just show up, you know, I learned this when I was 19 years old, I had a mentor, a business mentor of mine who is probably responsible for me being alive and successful and happy more than anyone else in my life. And he, on a personal level and a professional level, and he told me, he told me back then when I was first thinking about starting a business, he said, "Look, he said, "Just do one thing, just do this one thing." He said, "When you say you're going to do something, do it. And you will be better than 80 percent of the businesses out there if you just did that." And I think there's a lot of truth to that. There has been over my career anyway. The idea that if you just consistently show up, you will likely far surpass most people. And so in some respects, that's the case. I mean, in some respects, you don't have to be brilliant and you don't have to, you know, have the greatest thing in the world, you just have to show up and go to work. And that makes a huge difference. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we like to do the opposite of what Big Wireless does. They charge you a lot, we charge you a little. So naturally, when they announced they'd be raising their prices due to inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due to not hating you. That's right. We're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. 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Go to bombus.com/acast and use code ACAST for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombus.com/acast, code ACAST. Well, I think my thousand word a day habit is a perfect example of that. I think there's a lot of people, many of who have been guests on the show who are far better writers than I am. Honestly, I remember somebody asked, "I said the reason I have to write so much is because I'm not that good. That's my theory." I was like, "I can only accomplish what I do through volume." The other thing that I want to comment on that you said is worth just repeating. You said, "Do the things you say you're going to do." You know what? We've mentioned this before. You can start with the smallest of things. If you say you're going to respond to an email today, do it. Make things like that a habit. What's amazing is those things amplify, eventually doing what you say you're going to do just becomes who you are. That's the definition of integrity. That's exactly right. Your life will be much better for it. Your relationships will be much better for it and your business will be much better for it. That's been my experience and that's been the experience of the people that I've worked with. I mean, it seems so simple and so basic and yet the majority of people won't do what they say they're going to do, the majority of the time. Most people won't just show up and be persistent long enough. Let's get into today's topic because I think for once we're going to actually have a debate on the air between you and I. Oh, really? All right. Let's do it. According to our pre-recording conversation, what I want to talk about is something that has actually been really bothering me, as I've been watching the web, as I've seen some of my own experiences, as I've seen comments from people, I wrote a little essay the other day called Feed the Ecosystem. It was about why I don't think that artists can survive on free content. My whole idea behind this, in some musicians commented, a woman named Rachel James, what I'm really, when I look at it, and where this idea came from was a musician actually wrote an article on Medium about this idea that if artists kept creating content for free and we didn't support it financially, at some point they wouldn't be able to create anymore, and the world would lose out on great art. I thought that was a very, very thought-provoking argument and I thought, you know, it makes a case for why I'm glad I use Spotify instead. I mean, I'll admit it, I downloaded a bunch of free music when Napster first came out, like most people. And now, as somebody who's a creator, I think, okay, yeah, you know what, there's a compelling case for that. I buy books, even though I get tons of free books. I buy lots of books from authors, even books I've gotten for free, sometimes I'll buy just to support the person who's a book, because I realize, in order for writers to keep writing, we have to keep buying their books. And I don't know, and to me, even our show is a perfect example of this, you guys probably heard recently, I added a little tagline at the very end that says, "Hey, when you support our sponsors, you support our show." You get to listen to our podcast for free, but we fund it via sponsors. And the way that, in order for us to keep doing what we're doing, that's the way you can support us. Effectively, what you're doing is what I call feeding the ecosystem, because I think if you don't feed the ecosystem, things in it won't thrive. So Greg, and you apparently apparently disagree with me on this. Yeah, I think that's total BS. So I think that's total BS, because I think creators will always create, artists will always create. I think we're mixing two things there. I mean, it's an interesting world that we live in, or I should say it's an interesting culture that we're in here at least, where we live in a capitalist system. So everything kind of gets filtered through that lens of marketplace exchange. And so when you say that if we don't feed the ecosystems, artists won't be able to continue to create art, that's ridiculous. I mean, art has been created since the beginning of time and always will be. The question is, is there a sense of responsibility or no sense of responsibility on behalf of the consumer to participate? And I think that's just personal preference. I don't think there is a sense of responsibility. I mean, I think that you have to decide what your worldview is and how you want to participate. I mean, you can support, you know, you vote with every dollar you spend and you can choose that vote any way you want to. And I don't think, I think if I voted for, I mean, so take, for example, somebody that has a musician that's supported by a big label. If I buy their music, I'm supporting that big label, right? That's a big corporation versus an independent artist who just releases their own record. I don't think I have to choose between those two. And I don't think by choosing one, I'm destroying the other. I think both can exist in this world. And I think it's a personal preference of mine. And I think both will continue to create music regardless of which one I choose. Yeah. Okay. So I agreed that they will continue to create. I don't disagree with that. I think that there's something to be said for that, like there, you know, that to me there's absolute value in creating for the sake of creating whether we make money from our art or not. But you know, I honestly think that there is, there's a question of if these are people who are making a living from their art, I honestly do. I mean, I feel. Then it's the responsibility of the artist. It's not my responsibility as the consumer, it's the responsibility of the artist to do something that compels me to want to pay for it. And it's the responsibility of the artist to be a good enough business person. If they want to make a living from their art, good enough business person to convince me that I should pay for it. I don't think it's my responsibility as the consumer. I think it's their responsibility as the artist. Sure. Well, I'm not advocating paying for shitty art just to be clear. Okay. And I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that you're saying that as a consumer, it's your responsibility and I don't, I don't agree. You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I feel that if you are consuming something on a regular basis, like, I look at it, you know, I'm like, okay, is it, I, I do feel some sense of responsibility as a consumer. I think that they should. We're, we're, we're in disagreement here. Like, I think that, you know, if you're getting an insane amount of value for something and you've done nothing to support it financially, I mean, there, there's give and take here, right? That, that's something you got to think about. Okay. I'll, I'll share an example. And this is something that the reason I wanted to have this conversation today of all the things we could talk about was that, you know, Derek Halpern actually put up an update on his Facebook page where he said somebody who had subscribed to his newsletter basically said, you know, you've provided me a ton of valuable content, you know, everything you've provided to me has been insanely valuable. And now you send me a pitch. I'm unsubscribing from your newsletter. Yeah. And it's kind of like, wait a minute, it's, it's, you can't leech off of the system and not expect somebody to. So that's not leeching. That's not leeching. If, if Derek Halpern puts out free stuff, I'm not a leech for reading it. I know that. That's his business practice. Yeah. But to complain that, Hey, suddenly you're, you know, you're actually pitching something. Um, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that in order for something to continue to exist, it has to be supported somehow. Yeah. So that's not my responsibility as a consumer. That's your responsibility as the business person. So, so let's take James Altucher, for example, I read James blog posts. That doesn't mean I need to buy something from him. If he puts out free content like that, that's great content, he's doing, he's made the choice to do that. Not me. So, so if he makes that choice and I choose to read it, well, then, Hey, that's just how it goes. I don't have to do anything to support him. Now, out of the goodness of my heart or because I care or because I want to see him succeed, I may support him, but I don't have a sense of responsibility to him or his life or his work. That's on him. Okay. Well, okay, that's, that's fair. Um, I don't disagree with that, but so you brought up, you know, the idea of the goodness of your heart of wanting to support him. I mean, I think that that to me is, is really, to me, that's fundamental to, to making who knows, maybe that's the answer to how we balance it out. But again, not like I'm not somebody who's going to, you know, spend my money on buying shitty art. Like there's nothing that it angers me more than when I spend $15 on a physical book on Amazon and it shows up and I'm like, why did I buy this? That pisses me off and I'll admit that, but I mean, that's the gamble that we take. Yeah. And I, so I think that you, what you're saying is is that you have a personal sense of responsibility to, to give back, to contribute. But I'm saying that that's just your personal opinion and that art will continue to be created whether you have that opinion or not or whether a bunch of people have that opinion or not. That was your original premise that art would stop being created. Sure. If we didn't, if we all didn't say to ourselves at the goodness of our heart, we have to support this and I'm simply saying that's not true, that art will continue to be created, whether out of the goodness of my heart, I support it or not. And on top of that, it's not my responsibility to care for it, unless I feel like that's the right thing to do because that's my worldview, but it's not my responsibility. It's the responsibility of the person on the other end who wants somebody to buy something. It's always on them to convince me that I should participate, not the other way or around. Okay. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important. Life insurance. Why? Because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage, credit card debt, it can even help fund an education. And guess what? 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That's bombus.com/acast code ACAST. Yeah, I don't know, this is an interesting one. It's funny because I think this is the first time we've actually disagreed on the air. Well, good, it's about the end time. I know, seriously. Yeah, I don't know, I'm not completely convinced. I mean, yeah, people will create art, my thing is that great art, in order to get the stuff that we love, I think that on some level, we do have to support it and we do the kinds of stuff that is high quality, that is amazing, that generally gets consumed and purchased. In order for that stuff to be created, I think we absolutely have to support it. I think we do have a responsibility. As a movie-goer, I've been thinking a lot about this. Our friend Israel Smith in Australia, once I'd asked him about this, he said, "Man," he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "No." He's like, "I don't ever download movies." I thought he said, "You're a creator." He's like, "You shouldn't be even thinking about things like that." I said, "Wow, do I have an obligation to go watch a movie that sucks or that I think looks awful?" No, but I think there is something to be said for supporting people who have created stuff that's really good. Yeah, and by the way, me taking this, I want to be really clear here because I don't think I was at the beginning. My personal preference is to support independent artists who are doing great work, who are on their way up. I just want to make that clear. My track record shows that. I vote with my dollar and I am very careful about where I place that dollar every time. Personally, my personal preference is to support that ecosystem, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this. I wouldn't be a artist's podcast, for instance, and I wouldn't be trying to do this daily creative newsletter that I was just talking about, which the whole purpose of that is to support up-and-coming artists or people doing creative things that don't get a lot of attention. Personally, my personal preference is to support that ecosystem. I'm simply taking the position for the sake of this argument that my personal preference does not mean anything in comparison to whether that art will be created or not. All right, well, let's turn this to the listeners. What do you guys think? We definitely want to hear about this because this was something that has been really kind of top of mind for me for the last few weeks as I've been watching things and I think it made sort of a nice tie to really connect the dot between this and the all-or-nothing internet. So, write in, tell us what you think, unmistakablecreative.com/contact. Also, feel free to give us feedback on the show in general. I know a lot of you guys have been writing in about that. If you have topics that you want us to cover, it's been really cool to see all of you guys interacting with us. We're hearing a lot of your comments and some of you have even written blog posts in response, like Scott actually wrote in it. What we read from him was actually an excerpt from his blog post. If you write posts in response to the episode, please send them to us. We'd love to include you in this segment. Again, this segment is all about you guys, so, again, unmistakablecreative.com/contact. Greg, anything else to add? Yeah, care. Just feel free to continue to write in until training that he's a wimp. All right, and we'll wrap with that. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks for listening in on another candid conversation at the unmistakable creative. Embrace your inner misfit, express your creative voice, and remember, the goal isn't to live forever, but to create something that will. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important. Life insurance. Why? 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Warning, Bombus are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes. Sorry, do we legally have to say that? No, this is just how I talk and I really love my Bombus. They do feel that good, and they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to bombus.com/acast and use code ACAST for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash ACAST and use code ACAST at checkout. At Sprouts Farmers Market, we're all about fresh, healthy and delicious. That's why you'll find the season's best organic produce handpicked and waiting for you in the center of our store. We bring in local farm fresh fruits and veggies bursting with flavor. Come on in to discover everyday favorites like juicy berries and crisp greens, but also unique peak season varieties like moon drop or cotton candy grapes. Visit your neighborhood Sprouts Farmers Market today, where fresh produce is always in season. Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity? Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel? We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI world, and this is more than just a guide. It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch. The skills that are essential for standing out and thriving no matter how much technology evolved. We're talking about real differentiators here like creativity, emotional intelligence, critical thinking, and much more. Inside, you'll find actionable insights and strategies to develop these skills, whether you're a creative person, a business person, or just simply someone who loves personal development. This isn't a story about tech taking over. It's a story of human creativity thriving alongside AI. Picture this AI as your creative co-pilot not just as a tool, but a collaborator that enhances your unique human skills. 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