The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

How Travel Causes You to Grow as a Person With Matt Kepnes

After a trip to Thailand in 2005, Matt decided to quit his job, finish his MBA and head off into the world. What started out as a one year trip has turned into a 7 year journey in which travel has defined his life. Here are some of the highlights from our conversation

Making radical identity shifts through incremental steps
A look at the early start of Matt's travel writing career
Why long term travel doesn't have to be expensive
The highs and lows that come with long term travel
Why the hardest step in any journey is the first one
How to find adventure outside your front door
The difference between vacation and travel culture
The personal growth that comes from long term travel
Why being a voracious reader is so essential to your writing
How to significantly improve your writing through editing
Why you must make your stories must about the reader
The Importance of having impeccable standards
The difference between perfection and progress
Living like a local when you travel
A look at the writing process for Matt's Book
The 8th grade view that can inform your writing

A professional traveller since 2004, Matt not only documents his travels but also helps explain how you can also live a life of travel. He is the author of How to Travel the World on 50 dollars a day and runs the travel blog Nomadic Matt

Making radical identity shifts through incremental steps
A look at the early start of Matt's travel writing career
Why long term travel doesn't have to be expensive
The highs and lows that come with long term travel
Why the hardest step in any journey is the first one
How to find adventure outside your front door
The difference between vacation and travel culture
The personal growth that comes from long term travel
Why being a voracious reader is so essential to your writing
How to significantly improve your writing through editing
Why you must make your stories must about the reader
The Importance of having impeccable standards
The difference between perfection and progress
Living like a local when you travel
A look at the writing process for Matt's Book
The 8th grade view that can inform your writing

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Broadcast on:: 29 Jan 2014
Audio Format:: other

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What started out as a one year trip has turned into a seven year journey in which travel has defined his life. Matt, welcome to the unmistakable creative. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Well, people who are listening probably don't know, but this is the second time we've had to do this. Fortunately, you sound about a thousand times better. I think Skype is working for both of us this time. Wow. Well, we have a whole hour here. You never know. Yeah, that's true. We've just started, but the way things are sound and I'm very happy. So Matt, let's get to it. Let's start with your story and kind of who you are, what your story is and how that has led you to doing all the things that you're doing today. Well, my name is Matt and I run a travel blog called the Matt Mac and about in 2004 I took a trip to Costa Rica I never traveled before. I can count on one parent where I went to with my parents. I'd never been overseas, a place I needed, a passport, never been anywhere on my own. And I went to Costa Rica on the tour and I just kind of fell in love with travel. Saw that there was more to life than the two week vacation that it was possible to travel long term. So decided right then and there to quit my job, came back home, quit my job, finished on MBA. I was studying for because I had originally planned to just take a year off and then come back and use that degree that hasn't really worked out. So if any of your listeners want to buy an MBA I'm selling it really cheap. I have student loans, I need to pay it off. Best offer. Best offer. Well, Matt, I'm offering my MBA for sale. I never thought to do that on the air but I'll do the same. I have student loan debt to pay as well. All right, two MBAs for the price of one. Yeah, I think that's a good one. Best offer. Come on audience. So I finished my MBA and I went, I left home in July of 2006 for a year, came back 18 months later. Didn't have a job with super broke, sat down in the cubicle because I eventually got a temp job and I realized that the last year and a half, it was like it never happened. There I was back in the cubicle doing absolutely something I despised. So I thought to myself, what does that really want to do? And it was travel more and I thought, well, what job could I do that would let me travel more? Travel writer. That sounds great. So being a product of the internet age, I did what most of us do when we want to find the job. I went online and I started a blog. I thought, all right, well, I'll have this website. People can find me, I can use it to submit to editors. And long story short, over time, it just kind of grew and grew as more people came to me to ask the question, you travel the world, how can I do it too? And here we are in 2014, five and close to six years later, April will be my six year anniversary and I'm just helping as many people as I can to help get them on the road, to inspire them to travel more, to prove that travel isn't expensive and you can go anywhere in the world you want. Well, Matt, let's do this. Let's take a few steps back to the beginning of this. I mean, I think that one of the things that really kind of struck me that I think is interesting is you said you had never traveled anywhere before other than where you were with your parents. And so this is like a drastic change in sort of worldview and a perception of how things are. And, you know, I'm curious, are there things, and maybe travel isn't the thing for somebody, but there are other things that they want to experience sort of a drastic change. What I'm finding, the more and more I talk to people, I find that sometimes it's a significant emotional experience that causes change and for you, that's what this sounded like. And I'm curious. But regardless of whether it's travel or not, I mean, what do you think it is that takes, what can we do to experience that significant emotional experience that causes these kinds of changes? Well, for me, you know, I went away on that original trip because I was working and I thought, what do you do when you have a job in two weeks vacation a year? You take a vacation, right? So I was following the pathway before me and that led me to the path that I am on now, which kind of, there's some irony there. But I think, you know, to make the change to, you know, to go from, I've never traveled to, I've, that's all I do now. I think it's hard for people to, you know, make such a drastic change. So what was good for me, and what I recommend to a lot of people, is, you know, take the baby step into, you know, the shallow end of the pool, right? So for me, that was going on a tour. I took a two week tour. I think go by myself. I went on a tour with a big company and I sent them, you know, I had vetted them. I followed all their rules. I bought everything they said on their list. And that sort of wet my feet into, you know, travel, because it made me comfortable then reaching out and doing it on my own. And I think a lot of people say, well, you know, I would love to do that too, but I can do it like you do it. Well, you don't have to do it like I do it. I'm doing it in a way that's comfortable for you and often that's just taking like the small step, you know, taking that first step. Yeah. I love this. I wish this was a conversation that happened more often. I mean, I think that, you know, obviously the internet perpetuates the, you know, basically bail out everything and leave. And, you know, I mean, of course, you know, we see your life, Matt, through the pictures you post, through the stories you tell, but I know there's another side of this. I mean, I've seen, I've even read some of the stuff you've written about it. I mean, it isn't, it isn't all just fun and games. It's not just glory and sitting on a beach, drinking my ties. There's some pretty dark parts of it. Like, you know, I mean, I remember thinking, do you remember seeing something you wrote on medium? You're saying, yeah, it's lonely at times. Yeah. You know, I mean, when you're on the road, when you're doing what I do for so long, you know, I, I was pretty consistently on the road for seven and a half years. You know, when there's ups and downs, you're, you get lonely, it's hard to really have a girlfriend or a relationship when you're moving every couple of months. You get too used to saying goodbyes and then eventually you just don't care to meet any new people because they're just going to leave in a few days, right? So what's the point? Yeah. So you do get like highs and lows and then after a while, you're like, where do I need to go see, you know, that church for or that waterfall? I've seen a million of them. So the grass is always greener, but I think that it, it's true for a lot of things. When you do something so often and for such a long period of time, there are going to be sort of low points when you just don't, don't care anymore. So it's always good to step back. Whenever I feel this way, I either, you know, come back to New York City where I have a home base where I'll just stay in a destination for a really long time and watch movies and sit on Facebook and eventually I'm going to get bored of that and be like, man, I really miss, you know, traveling. I can't wait to go see more churches and temples and waterfalls. Yeah, let's do it. Then you go out again, you're really excited to meet people and, you know, you get reinvigorated and fresh again. Okay. Your 2013 was a really good year for me professionally, but a lot of my travels was related to business conferences and book tours and meetings and everything in between. I felt really burnt out by the end of the year for two months out in New York City. And then I went to Nicaragua and now I'm really reinvigorated and I'm planning a million in one trips in my head because I was just traveling. I was doing what I used to love to do and still love to do, going on my own, exploring places at my own pace and, you know, once you get back into it, you realize what made you love it in the first place and now I'm just hooked again. It's funny. You know, you bring up the goodbyes and I remember one of my friends said, "You shouldn't be friends. I lived in Costa Rica for six months and one of my friends said, "What's the point being friends of the tourists? They're all leaving." You know, and I remember distinctly once it happened, I spent two weeks saying, "No, they're friends." And I realized, "Oh, wait a minute. You're not going to be here." And it's really an interesting thing. I mean, I think that, you know, we sort of glamorize this idea of not being tied and being completely free and yet I think that we have this, we have a need for roots to some degree and that's why, like, you know, when I listen to you talk about coming back to New York and actually enjoying it and, you know, sitting around doing nothing, it sounds crazy, right, to think, "Who the hell would enjoy that after they've been on the road?" But, you know, I mean, sometimes the nicest thing to do is to come home and be like, "You know, this is great. I'm perfectly happy sitting here on a couch, you know, surfing the web." Exactly. People go on vacation to do what I'm doing. I go on vacation and I do exactly what people do in their everyday lives. I'm sitting alone. I try to do a plus. I order delivery. I sleep and I'm like, "Do not bother me." You know, but everyone, we all need our batteries recharged. Mm-hmm. Well, Matt, let's do this. Well, let's talk about this whole baby step idea of getting comfortable and putting your feet in the shallow end of the pool. You know, I think that a lot of people will hear that and they'll be like, "Well, that sounds great, but, you know, how do I still start?" I mean, I think that one of the hardest things for most people is just to start. Sometimes they don't know where to start. They don't know how to start. And then, of course, you know, they're sort of the motivation to start. And I'm curious, kind of, how you deal with all of those elements of this. I mean, you know, when you were at the, you know, very beginning of this, I mean, how do you get past those initial mental hurdles? Well, in the beginning, I, it was tough. You know, hold on, let me start that over again. I got to think about that, that's a good question right there. How do you get past those mental hurdles? You just kind of have to jump. There's a quote, it's a Dutch proverb saying, "The hardest part is getting out the door." And that's really true. Travel is actually really easy. You know, you make your way around your home city, right? You get on the bus. You know, you find a restaurant. That's what you do on the road. You just ask people where a good place to go is, and yeah, it's a lot, it is worth it. People get overly anxious about, about this, "Oh my God, I'm going to be in foreign country. What am I going to do? How will I survive?" And I felt that way a lot in the beginning. But you know, you just, you know, and this kind of can try, but you just have to kind of do it, you know, and to go back to this thing of baby steps. What I tell people a lot is, if you're uncomfortable going into the real exotic, go to some place that's kind of the same. So for example, if you're an American and you're really afraid of going, you know, backpacking through or traveling through Africa, right, you're not just ready to go there. Well, start off with another English speaking country that's sort of similar, you know, go to Australia or New Zealand or the UK, right? Go to Scandinavia where they speak great English. You know, start with the tour, you know, explore the next state over, kind of ease yourself into it because the mind is a powerful thing and perception is often reality. So if you perceive travel to be this scary, you know, too difficult to manage thing, you're going to believe that and you're going to stay at home. So, you know, I really like the whole people's hands a lot, especially in America because we don't have a real travel culture. We have, you know, vacation culture, we go to the all-inclusive resort in Mexico for two weeks and we're like, yeah, I've been to Mexico, but we've never left the resort. So I get a lot of emails from people who are just nervous about this. So I think, start with something familiar and work into something unknown. You know, Matt, it's interesting, as I listen to you talk about this, to me, it's much more than about what you're talking about is about much more than travel. I think every creative endeavor is a foreign country waiting to be explored. And those questions about, you know, how will I survive? You know, what am I going to do? I don't think those are just related to travel. I think those are related to every, any, because here's the thing, right? Whatever it is, is foreign to us now, whether it's a country, whether it's a creative endeavor, whether it's a project, whether it's a new job, whether it's a crazy idea. Every one of those is a foreign country in some way or another. And what you're talking about, really, is a metaphor that applies to everything in our lives, wouldn't you say? I would totally agree, you know, this year I'm going to do a lot of new things professionally and personally. One of them, personally, is to eat healthy, and I have a friend sort of giving me advice and I must text him, like, 10 times a day. You're like, "Is this okay? Is this okay? Where am I going to do this? If I do this, is this going to get all messed up?" You're just like, "Relax, it's going to be okay." And I think whenever we break out of our comfort zone, we get nervous because human psychology, we like assurances, you know, we're built to be comfortable and secure. And so when we go out and to be unknown, we don't know what to do with ourselves. But I also think people, they doubt themselves too much. I doubt in myself a lot when I started, I still doubt myself. You know, I'm glad you brought this up, Matt, because I think that, you know, one of the things, as I told you before we hit record here, part of what intrigues me, the fact that you've grown a blog and published a book is that you've got this incredible story of making these drastic changes and becoming this completely different person in a lot of ways. You go from a guy who has never traveled to becoming somebody who literally does nothing but travel, but in those initial days, what I'm curious about, you mentioned that you doubt yourself and you did even then and you still do now. I'm curious about sort of molding moments, like moments in which you're like, you know, you could see transformation happening, you could feel transformation happening. Like, what were some pivotal moments in those early days for you? You know, I think, I've been asked this before, and I think in retrospect, it's always hard to say, this is the moment it changed. It's easy to, I can definitely say, I am a different person now than I was in the beginning. And I can definitely point out that, you know, that moment I went to Costa Rica, that was a big point. When I met those backpackers, that was a huge point. When I decided that I wanted to make travel a career, that was a big point. When it comes to like personal changes, for me, they happen so incrementally that sometimes I don't notice them. There are definitely moments when I realized traveling like, wow, I really sorted myself out. For example, you know, I moved to Bangkok in early 2007 to learn Thai. I was just going to take a couple of weeks of classes and I ended up saying they're nine months. I got a teaching job, I've made friends, I got a girlfriend for a while, I mean it was great. And I looked back on that time, I sort of at the end and realized, if I could find an apartment, find a job, you know, get a girlfriend, get a circle of friends in a different part of the world where I don't even speak the language, I could probably make it anywhere. I could probably go somewhere and set myself up just like I did in Bangkok. And at the time, it seemed really difficult, you know, it seemed like I was never going to find my footing. But one day you just sort of found your footing, my footing, and you know, I can look back on moments and say this was a pivotal moment. I think for me personally, I'm never in a moment and be like, oh my god, this is a big change. So yeah, I mean that's for me, I think looking back retrospectively, I can see a lot of moments like living in Bangkok, that I could really do this and I was more independent than I gave myself credit for. I think it's interesting that you brought up that you can only see it looking back, right? And they're incremental. And I think that in our minds, when we haven't achieved some sort of a goal or success or ideal, I think that what happens is we actually play it out to be this big moment. But the funny thing is when that so-called moment comes, it's really the byproduct of a lot of incremental things. I mean, you know, I can look back now and say, okay, yeah, there were certain conversations that I've had with people on this show that dramatically shaped and influenced the launch of the unmistakable creative, but I couldn't predict that. It's really interesting. And I think that that's something that we have to get our heads around. I mean, I think it just speaks volumes to the notion that small steps matter. Small steps make a big difference and that every single day matters. It's not just, hey, I'm going to show up, I'm going to do this one big thing. I think it's really, it's sort of that difference between the marathon and the sprint that really is a marathon in my mind to do anything that is remarkable work or interesting work or creative work. Well, you know, like, I think it was La Zoo, the journey of 1,000 miles with a single step, right? Yeah. And I mean, I recently saw our friend, he's like, oh, you look a little bigger, I've been going to the gym and I have, but when you, and, but when I look in the mirror, I don't really see a lot of change, but I look in the mirror, I see myself every day. So you don't really notice it until one day I'm going to be like, oh, wow, look, I, I do have those abs. I mean, that's going to be many months from now. I have a hard time giving you a pizza. Yeah. I'm not giving up pizza. That sounds like a terrible idea. Yeah. It's, it's really difficult. You're in New York at the moment, right? Yeah. That's, that sounds like a disaster. I don't know how you're doing it. I lived next to three pizza places that sell dollar slices. Yes. Yeah. That would be a epic fail of an experiment for me. Yeah. And they're open really late. So after I come to a couple of cocktails with, you know, my friends, I'm like, I'm kind of hungry right now. And there's dollar pizza, it's really hard to say no. So Matt, let's, let's, let's, let's shift gears a little bit. Let's talk about writing. You know, I mean, you've written a book, which is, which is amazing. I think that's a dream for a lot of people. But let's start in the earlier days of your writing. I mean, I think that, you know, travel writing in particular, like, it's funny because I, I was actually walking through a Barnes and Noble the other day or yesterday and I stumbled up on your book. And you know, it was really funny. I was like, okay, it's not in the entrepreneur's objection. It's in the travel essays section. I was like, you know, that's, that's appropriate. I'm glad it's in this section because that, that to me was why I was like, okay, cool. Now I know Matt's going to have some really cool stories to share with us. But let's, you know, before we get into some of the crazy things that have happened to you on the road, which I want to ask about, well, let's talk about writing and, and, you know, mastering your craft to the point where, you know, you get a book deal. I mean, how did, how did you get better and then how did you, you know, how did you manage to stand out and see of noise? Practice, practice, practice. Mm-hmm. There, you know, the more you write, the more, the better you get at it. I also think reading a lot helps. I've been a huge nerd since I was like 10, you know, I read the Unabridged version of Les Misérables when I was 13 years old. So my English teachers used to love me because I'd be like, have you read this like Dickens and they'd be like, oh yeah, that was good. What are you doing reading it? Um, but reading a lot does help. Mm-hmm. Um, and practice does help. But, you know, I've gone and looked back at my stuff from the very beginning and nowadays I'm like, oh my God, this is awful. Um, yo, I, who, why did anybody read me back then? Yeah, I think we all feel that way to some degree. I think if you don't feel that way about your work, uh, from even a year ago, you're not making progress. I think Chris Gilbo said that somewhere in a tweet. Yeah, I, I look at my stuff six months ago and I want to change it. Oh, yeah. I haven't read my book since it's been published because I know if I picked up, I would be like, this is crap and I would just start changing it and I would want to add information and I'm like, nope, I'm just going to leave it as it is until I have to update it. Um, I've, I've always been comforted to know and I don't know if the story is true, but I want them, I'm going to believe it is because it makes me feel better that they said Robert Frost of a day he died, he did how he ended the road, not taken and was always working on it. This Halloween, Google all out with Instacart, whether you're hunting for the perfect costume, eyeing that giant bag of candy or casting spells with eerie decor. We've got it all in one place. Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus, enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Offer valid for a limited time, minimum $10 per order service fees, other fees and additional terms apply Instacart bringing the store to your door this Halloween. How did you actually sleep last night? If it didn't feel like your very best rest, then you need to upgrade to the softest, most luxurious bedding from bowl and branch. 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But if we counted the time it takes to make a donation possible, it would take just a few clicks. Because every time you make a purchase, Bombas donates an item to someone who needs it. Go to Bombas.com/acast and use code ACAST for 20% off your first purchase. That's Bombas.com/acast, code ACAST. I think I've heard that before too. And if you think about that, the road is not taken. One of the best poems in the history of humanity wasn't good enough for him, well then we all have a chance. But for me, in the beginning, how did I get it heard about the noise, with travel, there's everyone wants to be a travel writer. It's a dream job. It was for me. I had the rose colored glasses, ooh, I got paid to travel the world. It sounds great. But now that the internet has eliminated all barriers to entry, there's no editors. You are the editor. You are the writer. You're everything now. So there's a lot of junk out there. And so for me, I made it a point to get edited and get edited often, and I still get edited. And I have someone read my site for small grammatical spelling errors, but every couple of months I go to writing conferences and I ask travel editors to just take, randomly give them an article and be like, tear this apart. So I want to be picked to pieces because that's what makes you better. So I think it's important that if you want to start writing and you're unsure of your ability, get edited, maybe even take a writing class. I have a book out and I'm contemplating taking a writing class this year, just to sort of polish some things, storytelling aspects I don't feel I'm strong at. But you know, like anybody at their craft, they want to get better. If you're really serious about what you do, you need to make a serious effort to get better at it. And that means writing a lot, listen to people who are better than you, and getting edited and taking classes to improve. And also understanding the fact that your writing is never about you. It's about the reader. You don't care that I went to Mexico. Nobody does. I don't want to read about your great life while I'm in the cubicle. What I want to read is a story that puts me there and makes me think I can be there too. And so good travel writing, and I think good writing places the reader in the story itself and gives them a taste of culture and life in some exotic place that is really different from their own. And that inspires them to maybe go seek out the unknown and shows them that day two can go do this. And so I recommend to a lot of new writers, like that's good writing. Those were lessons imparted to me by better writers and editors, you know, people I look up to. I mean, I'm really, really self-critical of my writing. I don't know why anybody reads me. Once in a while, I'm like, oh, that was really good. But, you know, I'm overly critical. But one thing that was told to me by someone I really respect, he said, one thing I really like you like about you, Matt, compared to other bloggers is that you make the stories about the reader, not about what you did today. Mm-hmm. So. Yeah, I love this. I mean, I think I'm very glad you talked about craftsmanship and sort of never being satisfied. You know, I think I may have mentioned this before. You know, I was listening to this interview with Judd Apatow, which is, you know, it's one of the few podcasts I actually will dabble into. You know, and, I mean, to listen to him talk about craft and how much time he was willing to put in and how bad he was willing to be in order to get good and constantly learning from the people who are the best. I mean, it was, you know, one of my favorite lines from that interview that I heard with him, you know, he said, he's like, every day is day one for me. Every day is the first time I'm doing this. And I have to do my best. I have to knock it out of the park. I'm not resting on my laurels because I've created, you know, these iconic things. We're starting over with a blank page and a clean slate every single time. And we're trying to basically get as good as we can be and doing our absolute best. I think there's this subtle distinction that is, you know, I see in people who are phenomenal at what they do and people who are just good and it's simply this. Like there are people who basically know what's good enough for an A, but they also know it's not their absolute best. And the people who just put in what's good enough for an A, I think, are the ones who get buried in the noise because, I mean, there's so much competition. And you know, Ryan Holiday said, he's like, this is a ruthless battle for attention. And really, at the end of the day, quality rises to the top. There's no question about it. I mean, it's what I'm witnessing more and more. You know, some of you guys have asked us, you know, what is, you know, what do you guys look for in your guests? And we're like, we want to know that they're really good at what they do. We want to know that they're unmistakable. So you know, and you're right, I mean, I think that it's all about going back and looking at it. I appreciate that you brought up the idea of taking writing classes and doing things. I mean, you know, you're a published author and, you know, you're not satisfied with the quality of your craft. And I think that to me is regardless of whatever it is, whether you're a writer or whether you're an artist, I think that all people who create art of any form have that sense of devotion that, hey, I'm not going to rest until I die, basically, in terms of the standard I've set for what I'm doing. Well, exactly. And like Ryan said, you know, it's really ruthless on the web. You have to always be striving to be better, you know, perfection will never happen. It's always about progress, but I always try to strive to be perfect because that pushes me forward and, you know, you really have to be trying, you know, and evolving and getting better because it is about quality. Yeah, there's all these, you know, sites with low quality articles that filter up through Google and, you know, content froms and what have you, but people really want to read good stuff. You know, our mutual friends, Steve Can from Nerd Fitness, I was talking to him one day and I said, Steve, you write really long posts. Why is that? He said, if you write really long posts, the people who read are committing to your site. And so you get a better, sort of get better retention from your audience. So I was like, hmm, that's really good point. So I started writing longer because I fell into sort of the myth that, you know, people have short attention span. So you can't write more than 800 words and I always felt that, felt that was stifling to me because I had plenty to say and so I just started writing longer and true enough that, you know, people enjoy it more. And that was also sort of a moment where my sites were broke, you know, broke higher a little more because I was becoming more interesting and kids, people want quality. They want a good story. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I think that, you know, I want to caution people not to take away the lesson that, hey, the longer post is the formula at all your problems, but really, I think what it was is what you were wanting to say, like you weren't getting to say everything you wanted to say. I think that's the more important lesson in my mind is, hey, you've got something that you just feel very compelled to say. I think that, you know, we hold back on that so often. Oh, yeah. Definitely. I mean, my post last week was like 450 words, you know, say what you need to say in the amount of words you need to say it. Yeah. But I was also cutting myself off because I felt people only read short stuff. I mean, I posted like 5,000 words now, you know, so it really depends on what you're writing about and the message you're trying to deliver. But, you know, it doesn't matter the word count, it matters the quality of the writing. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, Matt, let's do this. Speaking of quality of writing, let's shift gears and let's talk about the book. But I want to frame this a very different way than I normally do because I think it'll be fun. I'm very curious to see. That's what it's called, how to travel the world on $50 a day. And rather than talk to us about how to do it, how about in the spirit of honoring everything you talk about. Tell us a crazy story from your time on the road that involves $50 a day or even less than $50 a day. Less than $50 a day. Well, that's easy too. Let's see. Crazy stories from the road. All right. What was the time when I traveled through Vietnam on $8 a day? Okay, let's get into that then. How the hell do you do that? It'd be $8 a day. I don't think I can, I mean, you know, considering you're in New York, I jokingly tell people, you know, part of the reason I don't like New York is you might as well walk out of your, you know, wake up each morning and throw dollar bills out your window. Oh, tell me about it. I went to a friend's birthday a couple of days ago, two hours, couple of drinks, spent 50 bucks. I was out for two hours. Yeah. I had two drinks. And yet you did $8 a day. So talk me through this $8 a day through Vietnam. I mean, what, I mean, what's possible with $8 a day? Well, Vietnam is a very cheap country and we have a very favorable exchange rate. So that's a plus. Okay. You can get a dorm room or so for like $4 or $5. I might really didn't drink that much, but you can get 12 cent beers from these little kegs on the side of the road. And if you stick to the street stalls in the markets, you know, you're getting $1 to meals. So, you know, you're looking at your $8 a day, most of the time. Oh, now of course, some days I went over if I had to travel, I might go 10 to $15. I did a tour, but for the most part, I was pretty much coasting through that country on around eight bucks. Because sometimes I would go share a room with a friend and I'd spend $2.50 for a bed. And of course, I'm not staying in the hill fan, but, you know, I get a bed. I have a fan. I have a flush toilet. There's no car approaches. I'm happy. So, you know, I mean, that's an extreme, but one of the things I always try to tell people about traveling is that in your day to day life, you're not spending a lot of money, right? You're not going out every day to every fancy restaurant drinking and doing all this stuff. Well, the people in the country that are going to visit are doing the exact same thing. They're not going out all the time. If you really want to experience a culture, eat where they eat, travel and commute, how they can travel and do what they do. So then you end up at, you know, the markets for eating, you know, $2 soup and riding the public bus for, you know, 50 cents and drinking $12 beers on the side of the road with some old Vietnamese guys who are looking at you oddly because you're on a plastic chair by the keg and they never see that often. So, you know, if you, you know, there's always the expression, oh, I want to, I want to travel like a loco and ask, my version of that is I want to live like a local. Do what locals do, you know, and then you get to really experience a culture and you drastically reduce your costs, right? You know, if you want to go to Mexico and cheap, staying in the resort, it's not the way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. Well, let me ask you this. You know, one of the questions comes around this, I mean, have you ever found yourself in any sort of situations where you're thinking, okay, I'm in a foreign country and I'm in kind of a disastrous situation, how am I going to get myself out of this mess? You know, what I jokingly refer to is like a Jack Bauer moment. I luckily have not had any of those situations. I have paid bribes to some police officers. I once almost got in a fight with the cab driver in Amsterdam because he was ripping me off. But I haven't really been into any situations that are like, oh my God, this is scary. What did I do? Well, you bribed a police officer, so you know, I'm not going to let you off the hook. What'd you have to bribed them for? Oh, well, it was more of an immigration official. So I have paid a bribe to sort of extend a visa. I was in the country slightly longer than the visa I had when they let me. So I had to pay the guy to get to give me a new visa when he wasn't supposed to. This was in Cambodia, where you can pretty much bribe anybody. Wonderful country, but I'm saying, you know, if you have money, you can bend some rules. So a couple of my friends and I had stayed overstate our visa. And so we knew a Khmera guy who knew somebody who had literally taken new visa and placed it over our old visa. So it looked like we were still legally allowed to be there. All right, so Matt, let's do this. Let's talk specifically about sort of the writing of the book and the process. I mean, you know, you basically have had all these experiences and you kind of have to extract it for your reader into not only a book that shows somebody out of travel on $50 a day, but one that's hopefully entertaining even if I decide not to travel on $50 a day. So talk to me about that process of sort of, you know, surveying your experiences and then translating them into sort of this, you know, cohesive arc and narrative that leads to a book. So the book, how to travel the world on $50 a day was an ebook before it became a print book. You know, it was a small ebook I had 30, 40 pages and then Penguin came to me and said, hey, we like this, do you want to expand it? Okay. Sounds like a great deal. But then I had to just put everything into it. And I also had to think about, well, I have to make it a bunch of travel books. Yeah, the book is how to travel the world, but I have to make it accessible to, you know, my mom and dad and to Mill America who might not want to travel on $50 a day but want ways to save money. So that was a real challenge because I had to make it, I had to write three books, one for the ultra cheap, one for the normal backpacker and one for the budget traveler. And I had to include it all into one book. So it took me a little while, you know, I wrote it originally as, you know, a book for the backpacker. And then I thought, okay, what tips would work for the budget traveler who has a little bit more money, okay, we'll put in home stays and apartment rentals and things who, things and activities that people who are staying in hostile dorms don't really, really do because they're a little bit more money. And I got to think, what about for the people who really just want to go bottom of the barrel? Because I have plenty of people who go, oh, $50 a day, I can do 20. So I'd include all like the real, like, you know, hitchhiking and where's it good to hitchhiking? How to work on farms and how to, you know, get free accommodation and, you know, how to get free flights and all that stuff. So it took a while, it took me about six months to write, which I know is not a while in the grand spectrum of things and writing a book, but I would tie it pretty fast. But, you know, it took a lot of work. The hardest part was then going back after I had written the first drafts and just making sure I got every little detail in, which is another reason why I won't read my book because I'm always going to be like, I should have added this or, man, this is a new thing. Let me, I wish I could put this in there. Let's talk about something that's not always top of mind, but still really important, life insurance. Why? Because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage, credit card debt, it can even help fund an education. And guess what? Life insurance is probably a lot more affordable than you think. In fact, most people think life insurance is three times more expensive than it is. So with state farm life insurance, you can protect your loved ones without breaking the bank. Not sure where to start? State Farm has over 19,000 local agents that can help you choose an option to fit your needs and budget. 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Get a $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com/results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms and conditions apply. Linked in, the place to be, to be. Nobody tells me the same thing twice when it comes to this process. That's one of the ongoing mantras I always have to tell people is don't treat any of our advice here from any of our guests as gospel. It's just guidance adapted according to your own strengths, your own ways of doing things. You know, my favorite phrase at this point is advice is ingredients and the recipe is yours. Yeah. I would fully agree. I write, I back to my right day. I'll sit down and I will just pour out everything in like a two hour block, right, like 10,000 words. And then I won't look at that for two or three weeks because I should have used all my energy. But there are people who are like, they write for an hour a day. I can't do that. So I fully agree that it's very important that you adapt all these tips to sort of your own style. Yeah. Yeah. There's no question about that. It's really. Did you incorporate stories as well as tips to make the book entertaining? Yeah. Um, I tales from the road of, you know, antidotes from my own experience. I include quotes and stories from other travelers. I still have that eighth grade view where if you're going to say something, you have to back it up with an example, right? You know, when you learn writing an eighth grade, it's like introduction, you know, first statement example, second statement example. But I try to back up everything, um, everything I said with the story, um, or an example from somebody else that proves that, that point, right? And multiple points, um, as often as possible. So there's a lot of stories in there, people losing cards and, you know, getting robbed and what they did, um, me, you know, falling into the ocean and ruining the camera. I think I've done that on a vacation. I have to. I went to go get this angle of this town and really in a row low. It's in Chincuatera. That was so I was walking, but yeah, it's great, beautiful, beautiful place. So I was walking down the little ramp to the dock, you know, trying to not fall so I can get this sort of upward angle shot. Slipped on a bunch of moss slid right down into the ocean as first camera ruined. Soaked bag, everything in the bag, rep to zaster. Funny and retrospect, and there were a bunch of little Italian kids there and they just bust out laughing when they saw, that's how we do that. It's always amusing. Somebody, somebody finds humor in your discomfort when you're traveling. Yeah. Well, Matt, this has been really, really interesting. You know, I can't thank you enough for joining us, but I want to wrap with my final question and I got to change things up a little bit. It's got to steal a question that I heard asked somebody, you know, on another interview. It was that jet appetizing I mentioned, you know, what does, you know, what does success look like now or, you know, what does success look like when you've achieved everything you want and what do you think separates the person who does, who gets that from the ones who don't. That really is a good question. For me success, wrap always boiled down to two things. One, being able to go where I want, where I want, for however long was I want. So having sort of freedom of mobility to being able to afford sushi because I really love sushi. Nowadays, you know, when you read sort of a level of success, I think, you know, I'm a very type A personality. So I'm always like more and more and more and more. We can do it better. We can do it better. But you're moving forward, you know, for me, I kind of want to want to take a step back. I realize I've devoted too much into everything and I need to find a better balance between work and play. And so for me success is being able to do what I want as often as I want while being able to balance work, work, great too. And I think, you know, when you are really driven to create your own enterprise, you can easily lose yourself in it. And I think, you know, we can all, you know, I have a big website. I have a huge audience, you know, I have a pretty decent income. You're really successful, but a lot of people who are workaholics, you know, they, something else suffers. You know, what is really success? Balance. That's my view of success. Balance. Awesome. What's your view of success? I think it's the first time somebody's ever done that to me at the end of the interview. Well, for me, you know, you like eating sushi. I like surfing. Like to me, it's being able to surf as often as possible. You know, I think that that is sort of the driving force. There's no secret to that. I mean, everybody who listens to this show knows that, you know, the foundation behind all my creative efforts is the ocean. What gets you surfing more? Yeah, that's a pretty, you know, being in a location where there are waves. I mean, unfortunately, I'm always at the mercy of mother nature schedule. Well, how are we all really? How are we all? Yeah, that's a, that's a lesson that really kind of has come to me in the last few days. Well, Matt, you know, first off, let me say it's been my absolute pleasure to have you here back on the unmistakable creative. I'm actually very glad that we got to do this a second time because this was way more of what I was hoping for in a conversation. I got to know you better to really hear about your story and what is making you unmistakable in the world. So I can't thank you for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights without listeners. Well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed our second conversation as much as I enjoyed our first. Yeah. Today's episode of the unmistakable creative has been brought to you by cells. That's S E L Z dot com. Cells gives you the freedom to sell from any website quickly with no programming, no special templates or special themes needed, while giving your customer a completely seamless experience. Thanks for listening in on another candid conversation at the unmistakable creative. Embrace your inner misfit, express your creative voice, and remember, the goal isn't to live forever, but to create something that will. Discover Hydro, the best kept secret in fitness. Hydro is the state of the art at home rower that engages 86% of your muscles, delivering the ultimate full body workout in just 20 minutes. From advanced to beginner, Hydro has over 500 classes shot worldwide and taught by Olympians and world class athletes. For a 30 day risk free trial, go to hydro.com and use code ROW 450 to save $450 on a Hydro Pro rower. 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Making radical identity shifts through incremental steps
A look at the early start of Matt's travel writing career
Why long term travel doesn't have to be expensive
The highs and lows that come with long term travel
Why the hardest step in any journey is the first one
How to find adventure outside your front door
The difference between vacation and travel culture
The personal growth that comes from long term travel
Why being a voracious reader is so essential to your writing
How to significantly improve your writing through editing
Why you must make your stories must about the reader
The Importance of having impeccable standards
The difference between perfection and progress
Living like a local when you travel
A look at the writing process for Matt's Book
The 8th grade view that can inform your writing

Making radical identity shifts through incremental steps
A look at the early start of Matt's travel writing career
Why long term travel doesn't have to be expensive
The highs and lows that come with long term travel
Why the hardest step in any journey is the first one
How to find adventure outside your front door
The difference between vacation and travel culture
The personal growth that comes from long term travel
Why being a voracious reader is so essential to your writing
How to significantly improve your writing through editing
Why you must make your stories must about the reader
The Importance of having impeccable standards
The difference between perfection and progress
Living like a local when you travel
A look at the writing process for Matt's Book
The 8th grade view that can inform your writing

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