The Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Turning your Career Path into a Body of Work With Pamela Slim

In this episode Pamela Slim returns to the show to discuss her latest book Body of Work. A stable career in any field is quickly becoming obsolte, and by creating a body of work, we can navigate the uncertain world of work that lies ahead of us. Here are a few of the highlights from our chat.

The various work modes of Pam's career
Why having a sporadic work history isn't a problem
How farming influenced the early part of Pam's career
An incredible story about hand restoring a 100 year old school
The epidemic of doing work your'e not excited about it
Overcoming the limiting self beliefs of big projects
The tunnel vision of the non-conformist mindset
Why you shouldn't obsess over your work mode
The reason there is perfect way to be with your career
Working towards contributing and making something better
Finding your individual sacred journey
The moments in your life and and career that are tipping points
Why acting interested in your work when you're not is dangerous
The good intentions of parental advice
Why people change and blossom when they're able to do the right work
Finding the right combination of Ingredients to create great work
Why the search for a singular purpose can get in your way
Learning to developing criteria for the work that you want to do

Pamela Slim is an award-winning author, business coach and speaker. She spent the first 10 years of her business as a consultant to large companies such as Hewlett-Packard, Charles Schwab and Cisco Systems, where she worked with thousands of executives, managers and employees. Her new book, Body of Work, gives a fresh perspective on the skills required in the new world of work for people in all work modes, from corporate to non-profit to small business.

The various work modes of Pam's career
Why having a sporadic work history isn't a problem
How farming influenced the early part of Pam's career
An incredible story about hand restoring a 100 year old school
The epidemic of doing work your'e not excited about it
Overcoming the limiting self beliefs of big projects
The tunnel vision of the non-conformist mindset
Why you shouldn't obsess over your work mode
The reason there is perfect way to be with your career
Working towards contributing and making something better
Finding your individual sacred journey
The moments in your life and and career that are tipping points
Why acting interested in your work when you're not is dangerous
The good intentions of parental advice
Why people change and blossom when they're able to do the right work
Finding the right combination of Ingredients to create great work
Why the search for a singular purpose can get in your way
Learning to developing criteria for the work that you want to do

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Broadcast on:: 27 Jan 2014
Audio Format:: other

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When we hear the human voice, we instinctively want to listen in the hopes of understanding it. The speaker is searching for the right words to say, "That's because the human voice resonates differently from everything else in the world." This is the unmistakable creative podcast. Turn in on candid conversations with creative entrepreneurs and insanely interesting people. In this episode of The Unmistakable Creative, Pamela Slim returns to the show to discuss her latest book, "Body of Work." A stable career in any field is quickly becoming obsolete, and by creating a body of work, we can navigate the uncertain world of work that lies ahead of us. So listen in for how you can navigate your own future and create your body of work. Pam, welcome to The Unmistakable Creative. Thank you so much. Three times. Boy, I feel really special. I am so glad to be back here. Yeah. It's funny. We've had you at the very beginning of this. We had you one more time when we were finishing up our stint as Blogcast FM. Even though it hasn't been that long since we had you here, one of the reasons I really wanted to have you back is because I felt that the content of the new book, this whole idea of a body of work, is something that has been very transformative for me, and the people in our community are creative, and I think to get their head around that idea, I think is really something important because I feel like it just unlocks so many things, but before we do that, I'd love for you to walk us through a little bit of your story and how that has led to this book. Yeah, it's interesting because whenever you write a book and you've written books so you know this, the journey itself of writing is often also one in which you learn all kinds of things about yourself, and I know for me that was really the case with body of work. Not just myself, but also my dad, who's a central figure in the book, and what was initially driving me to write the book is after having done so many things in my own career. I've worked in just about every work mode you can imagine. I've been, I was in non-profit work early on in my career in college, I was an international service and development major with a focus in education in Latin America, and I thought I was just going to be an ex-patriot aid worker when I was young and optimistic. I'm still optimistic, just not as young, but I did that, I worked in non-profits, I worked in non-profit education at the Exploratorium, and then I slowly wound my way into more business and corporate life ending up at Berkeley's Global Investors, which is a big financial services firm in San Francisco, but in the field of training and development, and I've always found that being on the human side of business is something that was just really interesting to me. When I had kids, I was a stay-at-home mom for a year, which is when I started my blog, Escape from Cubicle Nation about eight years ago, and then I've also been a consultant to large companies, I did that for about 10 years when I first started my business, and then the last eight years, I've been working in startup. So there's something that I realized from my own journey of enjoying the fact that I've worked in so many different arenas, and to be perfectly frank about it, I never, ever considered that a problem. I never looked like, "Oh my God, my work history is all over the place, what a drag," and that's a very common feeling that I'll get and experience that I'll get from people that I'm working with. And to me, it was just the most obvious thing in the world, of course. That's what you do. Life's an adventure. You do different things. You get bored. You do something else. But I began to realize that that's not really the case for everybody. I'm really glad that you brought up your father. That was one of the things that was really, I remember when you gave your talk at Misfit about that. That was one of the parts of the conversation that really stood out. This is something I don't think I've ever asked you, or anybody for that matter. I mean, can you talk about some of the early influences in your life that sort of shaped the creative parts of the creative endeavors in your life? Yeah. Well, my dad is a huge influence and a huge part of really what shaped me on one side. And I really traced some of that back to what I learned in interviewing him from this book. Believe it or not, it goes back to farming. My grandparents were chicken and peach farmers in Yuba City, California, which is a small farming town up by Sacramento. Interestingly, I think we both know Ramit Saiti and Ramit's family have roots also in Yuba City. One of those weird things you find out about your friends when you talk about your childhood. But when I was talking with my dad about his life and why it is that he's so passionate about community development and volunteering and restoring old buildings. One of the central stories in the book is, for about the last 25 years, he and my bonus mom and other people in his really small community have been hand restoring essentially this 100-year-old school. And when I asked him about it, like, "Why would you do that?" His answer was always like, "That's just the way that it was. My grandfather's father, or his dad, my grandfather, his father, he said, "My dad, his farm was always immaculate. He took great pride in the work that he did. I was always cleaning up around the farm. We'd always make sure that the front that met the road where people would drive by was always really clean. And I realized hearing him talk about his dad, his dad was also a woodworker and did a lot of work in his shop that was where he loved to make things. He used to make things for my aunt, Char, where a little trivia fact. She's also Miss Beatle from Little House in the Prairie. And for David Lynch fans, she was an eraser head, also in tremors with Kevin Bacon. So she's one degree, you know, I'm only one degree separation from Kevin Bacon. But when she was in high school, she would roller skate, and she'd be in roller skating competitions. And my dad talked about how he would watch his dad really enjoy making sets. He'd be in his shop, and he would make sets for my aunt, Char, when she was doing her roller skating. Now, interestingly, another really deep part of my family's history is there was a lot of alcohol that was drank. My grandfather was actually quite an unhappy person, because he was going to school at UC Berkeley to be an engineer. And his father passed away, and he was forced by his family to come back and take over the farm. And he never really wanted to be a farmer. And this was a really interesting thing, because he did take great care in how it is that he took care of the farm, but he was a pretty fundamentally unhappy person. And I think that really influenced my dad. I mean, the positive thing is he was influenced to care about his environment and take care of things. But on the other side, he saw what it was like to live with a parent that fundamentally did not want to do what they were doing day in and day out. And so my dad left the farm. He knew he didn't want to be a farmer. He went to University of Pacific, which was then College of the Pacific and Stockton. And he was a journalist, and then he became a photographer. And, you know, he really had great passion for the work that he did. And that was a really huge influence for me. So on my dad's side, there's gigantic influence in terms of hearing the stories about his own work and watching him do work he loved. My mom on the other side, she didn't have that same relationship with work that my dad did. She did a variety of things. She was trained as a teacher. She was a stay-at-home mom after my parents divorced. You know, waitress, she worked with a special ed, and then her later years of working, she worked for Hospice and Marin, and she really enjoyed it. But her real passion was always about raising kids. I mean, I trust my mom's judgment more than anybody on Earth when it comes to how to raise kids. She has a really nuanced way that she understands how to be a parent. And like being around her when she's around my kid, she's never bossy at all. She doesn't tell me how to raise them. But just the natural way that she kind of asks questions, she believes in kind of free range kids, right? You don't constantly click after them like, "Watch that. Don't do that. Don't hit that. Don't do that." She believes in really letting kids go do their thing. And then you just give these slight little questions or adjustments or distract them from doing something when they're doing it wrong. Now, I'm not as good a parent as she was because I have my moments of yelling at times. Because you'll know if you live next door to me. But she really influenced me that way in terms of being the kind of parent that I want to be. It's interesting. One of the things you said was that your dad kind of saw what it looked like to have a life where you weren't excited about your work. And I think that that's almost an epidemic at this point in our society. And your first book really addresses that. What I love about where this conversation is going with this book is this whole kind of idea that it's no longer a career path, but it's a body of work that we can do all these different things. But two questions come from me from kind of what you just said. One is sort of this notion of how we deal with this epidemic and basically start creating. Even if we're stuck to some degree, how we get unstuck. And then you said your dad's restoring an old building. And I remember you telling this story. And I think that when I hear something like that, one of the first things that comes to my mind is, wow, that is a really big undertaking for a creative project. And part of me thinks that there's got to be people who think, God, I want to do something that big, but I don't have it in me. And I'm wondering how you get past that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the epidemic of unhappy people, this is such a interesting question to ponder because for many of us in the quit your job, start a business, be a misfit, be remarkable of which I obviously am one of those people. And I love to have people like that around me. Here is the trap that we sometimes fall into. We become miserable, arrogant, tunnel vision. We think our way is the only way in the same way that we can rail against the system for making people conform. And this is an interesting thing that I've really seen in my work in Escape from Cubicle Nation, which is one of the places that I want to bring us back in body of work is in not obsessing over work mode. There's nothing inherently wonderful or liberating about working for yourself. Yeah. I think that's an understatement. Right. I mean, talk to somebody who is totally panicked about how they're going to pay bills, you know, freaked out because their new and entrepreneur journey. Talk to somebody like my husband who lived through huge crash of the economy in 2008, right in his business and construction. I mean, it is a really challenging thing to work for yourself. I love it. It is a work mode that for me totally matches who I am and how I do my best work. And part of that is what I've learned because I have worked in many different work modes. But I think one of the things that we have done is to glamorize the idea about, you know, being remarkable or unconventional or being free and working for ourselves. And what we really get away from is understanding and respecting the fact that everybody has their own sacred journey with understanding themselves and their work. And for one person, the best possible choice that they may make is to decide to be a full time stay at home mom or to work for somebody else or to start a $10 million business and totally kick butt and hang out with Richard Branson on, you know, tropical islands. There is absolutely not one perfect way to be. And that's I think where we've gotten a little bit obsessed. And I think that's part of what there's, there are people who really have found the path where they do feel connection and meaning with their work when they work for themselves. And that's fantastic where they can really express that. There's a lot of other people that end up beating themselves up because they think they should want all that. And in either it's hard or it doesn't work or they don't really want it, but they think they should want it just in the very same way that they think they should move up the career path and purchase a large house in the suburbs. Do you see what I'm saying? It becomes a similar kind of thing that we're searching for that isn't directly related to really what is our individual path, you know, what is the way that we can actually be fully contributing to the world. So the place where I see that all of us can begin to make that connection with the kind of work that we're doing is focusing on creating and creating something which I think is something we can all share and we can enjoy that goes throughout many different workloads. I know that when I have family gatherings and my brother and sister-in-law who are isotope geochemists, you know, work for University of Pittsburgh, they come together. My sister works for a large company as a writer and editor, you know, I work for myself. Usually the places where we end up really getting excited is where we talk about what it is that we're creating, right? What are those areas where we have interesting projects that's, you know, challenging and we brainstorm that. That's the place that you can begin to find something. So yeah, you may not choose to spend 25 years as a volunteer and restoring a large 100-year-old school. I tell my dad, you know, a few crazy people do that and he's one of them. But you can enjoy maybe picking up a camera for the first time in a really long time and just enjoy the process of taking pictures or you may really enjoy coaching your kids' sports team and begin to get in the joy of creating and developing young, competent athletes, you know, within the team or whatever it is, that's when I think you can begin to really connect with yourself or you write a book or you do something that's engaging you with the creative process. I think that that's really been the biggest lesson of this book is let's not worry so much about, you know, career paths and I think a lot of people just get stuck because they think they should be doing a whole bunch of things. They think once they go down one path, if they become a lawyer or a doctor or engineer or a very successful business person, that nobody's going to understand and it's impossible to make a shift. My hope point is who cares? There's always a way to tell a good story about why it is that you're making different decisions in your life. The important thing is that you care about what you're actually creating and contributing to the world. I love this. I mean, I think you've hit one of my personal hot buttons, you know, and it's funny because Greg Hartle and I've talked extensively about this. He said, you know, when we're talking about the internet, he said, you know, you realize you live in a bubble. He said, go and see the rest of this country and, you know, he said, spend a day walking through Flint, Michigan and, you know, what we're up to probably doesn't seem all that relevant. Exactly. It's Narnia, if you've ever read the line in the origin wardrobe and it is really easy to just get focused on that and I'm exactly as delighted and intrigued as anybody else. For me, it was about eight years ago when I first discovered the internet and people who were crazy entrepreneurs who were doing all these interesting businesses and to this day, I get so excited and so it's such an interesting place to be and I'm so thankful for it. But there also are a lot of other really fascinating, interesting people that are, you know, all over the world that are doing really interesting things and creating interesting things. And there is a part, one that I call it a root that I've really found that is an important one to me, which is the bigger context for the kind of work that I want to do in the world is that going back to when I was an undergraduate and doing economic development work, like I care about our communal benefit and growth and economic development. So if I just look in my own area within the Phoenix metro area here in Arizona, it's only going to be a benefit if large companies here are working with smaller companies that are working with freelancers that are working with, you know, government projects that are working with nonprofits, the more that all of us are actually communicating with each other and doing work that's moving our entire economic engine forward, those are the kinds of conversations that I want to be in, you know, and those are the kinds of things. And that's why sometimes if we are using language of vilifying one way of being, right, and making ourself right, I just personally, I just don't like that. I don't like it in politics. I don't like it in life because what I care about is always working toward contributing something and making something better. And that's just something I've learned. I know a lot of people actually enjoy, like, negotiating and arguing online and stuff. Oh, my God, I would rather do anything else. I just can't stand that, like, okay, you know, it just doesn't light my fire. Yeah, no, I think that would exhaust me to know. So you set two things, you know, you've talked extensively about work modes, and then you brought up this concept of everybody's individual sacred journey. So a couple of questions around this, you know, in your own sacred journey, have there been sort of molding moments or sort of, and tipping points that you've experienced? And then the other is, you know, once we're clear on what our work mode is, I mean, how do you have that sort of sacred journey play out within that work mode and, you know, create and contribute? I mean, to me, it is, I think the sacred part of the journey is in recognizing that there, I do have a reverence for work. I do think that work is something that really makes us, I don't know, it's an essential part of life that even if you end up winning a lottery or making a huge amount of money or selling your company or something, usually that you're not going to feel inherent satisfaction if you're just sitting around doing nothing, right? There's something about the act of working that I know I've always really enjoyed, starting at age 12 of working in an ice cream parlor, you know, and just enjoying sweating and washing dishes and, you know, and doing something. But, and so, and the points I think that become tipping points and become significant moments are those moments when, for me, I've had the opportunity to feel what it's like to be doing work that I am truly meant to do that is so enjoyable that I totally love doing it. So there have been many of those moments when I've been in coaching conversations with people. I mean, just the hair is standing on the back of my neck as I'm talking with somebody who has a deep realization that they can build a company or that, you know, the fact that they had a rough time and they have many battle scars does not mean at all that they are destined to be in one direction. I mean, there have been so many of those conversations throughout the years and those are the times where I hang up the phone and I just like, I'm just grateful, I'm just grateful to be able to have those kinds of conversations because they're so powerful. The same thing has been true a lot of times in the writing process of even something as simple as writing a blog post that really, really was enjoyable to write but also really resonated with other people. I remember one of the posts I included in the book was one I did for my friend, Hugh McLeod, from Gaving Void and he did a series called You Less Than and you know when you just kind of get, you just get in the flow, I got this image in my head of this photo that my dad had taken of me and I was just transported into this journey of this story that I told and doesn't always happen that way sometimes and sitting down to write a blog post but this post was just so enjoyable to write and it felt vulnerable and open but it also felt kind of cathartic and so he published it on his blog and he ended up getting a huge great positive reaction to it and that was something that it's enjoyable when you have both sides of that. It was so enjoyable to do and I think there's a whole bunch of other parts of my creative journey but I remember in all the time that I studied Capoeira, the Afro-Brazilian martial art that I did, it was part of my volunteer work journey of being a volunteer executive director but I remember times where I would be in the, you call it the Haudenos circle, with other people and actually involved in the middle of the art and hearing the music and doing the movements and you're transported into another place and that's another part of my creative journey so those are the moments where I feel like I've had so many of them because I always have part of it as a character flaw honestly. Compared to my sister and brother, they are so much more able to do work that needs to be done. I can be very undisciplined, if I don't want to do something then I really, really have a hard time doing it. The good side means that I'm constantly gravitating toward work that is enjoyable. The downside is I am an adult who sometimes has to do stuff that I don't want to do and I openly admit that but there are many, many people who have never had that experience with work, never had that moment of like, have you had those moments? Not until this last couple of years, I can tell you in my corporate career, if you read my Facebook update from this morning, I think it was titled the performance that had to come to an end because as I was younger, you wouldn't believe the amount of times my dad would tell me, you're going to a job interview, make sure you act interested and I thought about that over the years and I thought no wonder it didn't work out because I acted interested. The problem is if you get a job where you're acting interested, you have to keep acting. So now obviously with all the work that I've done, you definitely get that sense that you were put here to do this. You can't imagine doing anything else. Yeah, that's very profound. I just got chills as you were saying that really. That is very profound and that's why it is so important how we do talk about work with ourselves and how we think about it and how we parent. What I believe so strongly is our parents that are giving us advice or our grandparents are doing it because they believe that they are helping us to be safe and well taken care of to have a great life. I don't think any parents going to intentionally try to sabotage their kid, maybe a few, but they're not very well. Usually they're saying this is what you need to do. You need to develop the kind of discipline where you stick with one thing. If I had had different parents, it would be very interesting to see how I would have turned out. Imagine if I had a military kind of focus, there's many people in the military, but you know what I mean? Somebody who is like don't quit, don't leave your corporate job, don't go by yourself and travel to Latin America, don't move to Arizona and marry Navajo. My parents, I was joking with Rameet when I was talking with him about this Rameet Seti that I've never heard my parents ever tell me that they don't think everything I do is fantastic. I'm sure sometimes they were thinking like wow, that's kind of unique, I don't really know where this is going, but they always just encouraged it so much that I think that's part of why I've been able to maintain this joy and connection. That's what I want. That's what I want for people. I know I sound like a total Northern California granola head life coach. I know that and I totally, I am, I mean I own that part of myself, but you know, the other part is I'm very pragmatic and I've seen hundreds and hundreds of times now throughout the last 20 years of working with people that it really is possible to cross the bridge of feeling trapped and stuck and like and things are not going to go in a good direction and I've seen it so many times to where people really do change and blossom when they're put in a situation where they're able to do the right work. I remember I was doing a big project, a huge consulting project and I was brought in to work in a department with somebody who was just a lovely person who was just a few years from retirement in the large company and I could tell right away there was a certain dynamic that was happening there where it's kind of like I was the outside consultant, but maybe there was like a little bit of an agenda to maybe move the person out and thankfully we developed a really good relationship and she was able to open up and tell me indeed she had had a great career but had a bad performance review one year and in some large companies once you get that it's like the total scarlet letter, you're targeted and we just did a lot of work to try to figure out strategically how it is that she could maneuver within the organization and get to a better place and she did and she was able to save her career and her job and work you know all the way out into retirement doing something that she totally enjoyed, it was a really positive career shift you know and like those kinds of experiences which ended up completely changing the trajectory of her life, it would have had a really big impact if you know if she would have ended up getting moved out not just by ending her career in a really sour note but also really strong financial implications you know based on how her retirement dollars would have been after having spent a lot of time in a career so I like to say being a martial artist as well you know I give advice and I totally spat off like a life coach but I'm totally willing to like take that into the octagon you know what I mean like if I'm fighting against somebody who says that. 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Hey there it's Granny and Hambo and we are back and better than ever got your answers is for sale and if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life this is the book for you we take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them settle them once and for all meanwhile Hambo what's your favorite part of the book 100 sneaky Hambo trivia question all that and a whole lot more it's called not your answers it's available anywhere you get your books right now forging ahead together drives Colorado's pioneering spirit at Chevron we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the communities we call home we also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer all to help improve lives in our shared backyard that's energy and progress visit colorado dot chevron dot com that's a bunch of you know whatever like just follow a career path and stop talking about all these you know life has meaning and you can enjoy your work I really am willing to like get down on the mat for that because it is possible to do really great work and have a good solid you know financial situation if that's what's important to you but also do work that's meaningful I think it's it's possible for everybody let's take a quick break and thank our other sponsor for today's show audible audible is offering unmistakable creative listeners a free audiobook of your choice and a free 30-day trial membership with over 150,000 titles to choose from you're likely to find books written by many of our former guests here at the unmistakeable creative so visit audible.com/creative and pick a book written by one of your favorite former guests now let's get back to the show well you know one of the things you said as you were talking about this you said you know a situation in which you're doing the right kind of work and you know I've talked extensively with this pipeline you know sometimes I think that one of the challenges where people find themselves doing work that isn't meaningful is that we've mismatched their talents with the environment that they're in and that's something I mean that's you know when I look back at my own experience that's what I see is that you know I mean I was written off as somebody who wasn't interested in controlling my own destiny that was what I was told which you know if you look at how this has turned out that's that's clearly not the case but part of it I think was just a serious mismatch of talent in an environment that's exactly what it is and that's why it is this really it's important to look at the process this one where you do you really do take ownership and responsibility for noticing and figuring out what are areas that you really are great at where do you have really powerful strengths what kind of environment is the best to bring out the best in you I've seen it over and the escape from cubicle nation arena with coaching clients where somebody was really miserable in in the work mode of working for somebody else and then when they got out working for themselves everything changed you know I was I was talking with a client the other day and I was like see like when you were in the organization I couldn't describe it to you you know I couldn't explain how things were going to be different and he was like I know I know like I totally get it now you know I see what you were talking about and that was a case where it where the work mode was a significant lever like I said earlier it's not like that's not the magic solution for everybody but when you can begin to pay attention to the times where you have the right set of circumstances around you the right kinds of people you can be an amazing business person and you can have like really really great advice but you get in the wrong audience and you feel like a complete and total loser because they're not connecting with you and they don't value you or your advice doesn't fit and then you get with the right kind of audience and it makes such a difference I went one of my clients is it was always a super talented therapist and psychologist and she was seeing she had a successful practice but she was seeing a lot of young women who had you know really low self-esteem and she'd do her very best to work in the context of being a therapist and a psychologist but she really had an epiphany where she kind of crossed the bridge and said and for in her case it was particularly for Latina women she was like you know one of the reasons why we have this systemically as for young Latina women is because we don't see these powerful examples of strong leaders and she ended up creating what she calls the Aya Leadership Institute which is really strong powerful Latina women business you know women professionals that are working together and it's just amazing to see the transformation of the impact that she can make I mean she's running events and she had Google's sponsor and she's been all over CNN and you know it's just amazing to see the shift when she was able to put her strengths and her skills in the right place the metaphor I use in the book is you have we all have our ingredients right but we need to find the right recipe you need to find the place where like the right ingredients come together and create something extraordinary yeah well I think that makes a perfect setup to really start talking more in depth I mean we've spent a lot of time talking about work mode but I really want to get into this idea of creating a body of work you know I mean that like I had told you before we even hit record here I mean I felt that was one of the most liberating things that I'd ever heard and as I sort of started to look at and survey people people who have interviewed people who have created a lot of things I look at this you know I look at somebody like Seth Godin and I think yeah I mean he's not defined by Seth Godin's blog it just happens to be part of what he does and then he has all these other things that become part of you know what you effectively call a body of work and you know I guess what where I'm going with this is that you know I think that once you get to some sort of central ethos or mission or message then everything else is kind of an expression of that so I guess that you know I guess you you call the thread that ties everything together I mean when you look back in your life and all the sort of careers you've had and all the things you've done I mean you've effectively created a body of work I mean what would you say that thread is and then how do other people find it I mean I think the thread it it ties it both ties your past together but then it also can be threads that help you look to what you're doing in the future so when one of the things where people can get caught who haven't found that a unified way to look at their body of work that makes sense to them first of all right not to mention somebody else is in thinking that you do find like a singular purpose and that that I think is one thing that ends up getting in people's way much more than it ends up helping where we say like what's my mission in life some some there are some people know it and you know it's they have a nearly you know religious experience with it which is totally cool that's what happens for them but for many other people it's not that way so for me it's beginning to notice what are really deep things that I care about what are patterns that I notice throughout the different kinds of work that I have done and one pattern that I notice over and over that went through martial arts work that I did and in community development in Latin America and training and development executive coaching startup coaching is about change in transformation right always being interested in watching a before and after like nothing gets me more excited than those uh reality shows where you have like a total disaster area house and you take everything out and designer you know builds new shelves and paints everything you put it back and it totally looks different like those that general pattern of transformation being in a bad work situation figuring out what works and relaunching in a new way is a thread that has always been throughout all of my work so I can notice that that's something that consistently is going to be um you know a moving factor in my work and it's part of my body of work even though the output can be different the other thing is really a passion and a connection with with the underdog with the unseen with those that don't get the credit that they're deserved with you know with discrimination with injustice with things like that has always been a very deep passion and interest of mine and so in the work that I do those become threads where I make sure whatever it is that I'm doing I'm always holding that as a consistent value so on my blog where I'm not only featuring stories of beloved white men hey my dad's a white man my brother's a white man I love them so dearly I love all my white men relatives nothing wrong with them however there are more people in the world right so if I have the opportunity to be building a platform I want to be showcasing people of different backgrounds and races and sexual orientations and you know perspectives on the world that's a way that I can really be weaving the thread you know in this particular part of what I'm doing so um so on one hand there are ways that you can look back over your history and actually like see it differently right um in some ways if you it could it can be a fun exercise where you look at all that you've created if you've worked in an organization for a long time you look at different projects you were involved in or you know maybe what kinds of things did you get done did you launch websites or build code or whatever it is and just begin to lay those things out on the table in addition to things that you did in your community things that you did you know in your personal relationships volunteer projects and begin to lay it all out that's where sometimes you can see patterns and retroactively you can begin to see where some of the threads were working that you weren't aware of when you use it as a way that you can look forward that's when I think it can help become certain decision criteria and some of that is why a lot of the first part of the book is about doing some introspection about about your roots like what do you really care about what do you actually value what do you believe what are things that get you totally riled up where do you want to to really make a difference in the world and when you define that then that can be some decision criteria for how you're going to look at different opportunities right so if you have the next safe step in your corporate career that you secretly loathe and your whole body like begins to shake when you think about it but you think that's a responsible thing right and then you have this new interesting projects that you're really drawn to you can look at at that decision criteria and say wait a minute you know maybe this seemingly risky next step is the one that's more perfectly going to be aligned with really who I am and what I care about and where my natural strengths are and I think the more you get used to making decisions based on that kind of criteria you do end up seeing more success I mean and sometimes you fall flat on your face but at least you're challenging yourself right to try out different situations where you're more likely to be enjoying what you're doing and really leveraging your strengths and I just see it in my own experience and not with a lot of clients the more you do it and you practice that you get kind of rigorous about what you say yes or no to the better your quality of life becomes and the better quality your work becomes yeah I having experienced a lot of things I have I couldn't agree more I mean I think it's it's you know even learning to say no to things took me a really long time and know it you know developing criteria that was a really really big one but you know the thing that you brought up that I really I want to dig deeper into you talked about how the output is different you know could be different anytime and I also love that you brought up that there's introspection one thing I've realized about introspection or this sort of you know finding this purpose or message or mission at least for me I found that it's an evolutionary process it's a complete process of inquiry and it's it's not like you know I never have you know I don't ever have on my to-do list today on my to-do list the task is to find my purpose that would be ridiculous like I think these questions are questions that we ask and it takes often they're they're questions that in my mind have to bake but the idea that the output could be different is something that I really I would love for you to expand on because you know as I've thought about this you know Simon Sinek came to me he said I'll tell you what your why is when we we had a chat he said you're completely enamored with people who are good at unusual things hence the name be unmistakable creative but it's played itself out in so many different forms like you know one is in the form of a book and others in the form an event you know now I'm thinking oh I could make a documentary film so I'd love for you because I think that when we see this our mindset is okay I'm a blogger and this is the thing I do I am forever defined by this one thing and then I go and look at somebody like AJ Leon it's like wait a minute these guys do everything even though their business is a design agency you know they have a t-shirt line that's part of their body of work yeah and and so so the the so the area of interest is in how it impacts the quality of your creative output when you're conscious about that is that what you're saying yeah I guess that and also you know I think that people are really trapped in the idea like I think they have a very limited perception of what their output options are yeah you listen to my show and you're probably thinking okay I'm gonna go start a blog and I'm thinking well if you have a message that would play itself out better in the making a film why don't you do that instead that's exactly right and I think that is something that is the options that we have today around these things are radically different than they were it feels to me even five years ago or ten years ago right there there's always been people who are just out there doing really cool creative things and my dad's one of them you know I've just always without having all the tools we have available but now with the combination of free access to resource like being able to learn just about anything in the world if you're young it's on YouTube right if you're old then you go to google but you know it's uh there's we have access to learning so many things but then also with crowd funding I think that's another really just different unique opportunity I had one one client used to be work for Disney actually and she is an artist and she had this crazy idea to she got married to an Argentinian and she wanted to travel to all the provinces in Argentina and paint portraits of people and just the interesting people just the average person right the teachers and scientists and poets and everything and uh and so like kind of kind of a crazy wacky idea but she did a Kickstarter project and raised $25,000 you know and when she started she she didn't really know what she was getting into when she started and halfway through she didn't exactly know what she was getting into and realized she may have been way over her head but then when she had that focus on really being excited about it and she engaged her community and she asked for help she was actually able to you know to do it and I just think I just think those things are totally amazing you know I just I just think it's really amazing that we are able to do a lot of creative projects now and the precedent has been set where because we're sharing and we're communicating with each other and the cost to entry is so much less right making a documentary in the past in order to have any kind of quality of filming then we would need to have you know really expensive camera equipment and stuff now you can probably do the damn thing on your iPhone you know I mean it's like we're not far we are not far I'd say it's you know I found an app called director the other day that that does exactly that and you know they even have a business version of this app and I'll link it in the show notes for those of you guys listening and I was thinking to myself we're not far from being able to make feature length films from our phone I think in the next 10 years that's going to happen exactly exactly so for what we consider to be like creative output it's all creative output right I mean it really is when you think about it comes out of our head and we make something so that's all creative but for people that are driven to want to write a book or make a film or you know record an album or whatever like that is where I think we're at a very unique time in in history and and that's where that and the term body of work has obviously been used for a very very long time we do tend to often attribute it to just people in the creative professions like photographers or artists fine artists or things like that writers but what becomes really interesting to me is where we attribute it to all of us and it basically is just that which we create throughout the course of our lives and the tangible things and the intangible and this is part of where I also feel lots of passion and excitement personally about this kind of definition because it can validate for some people who never really cared so much about writing the next great novel or you know traveling somewhere and making a documentary but that is passionate about being a certain kind of parent or being a certain kind of neighbor and just relishing and enjoying the conversations that they have with the local folks that are at their you know their corner pub to somebody who really has that as a focus where they really put their creative energy into as an example building really profound relationships that's that's a very powerful part of their body of work right for the people who have been touched by that that can be an amazing life altering experience so I just read about a story that was around on Facebook of this teacher who loved teaching and he got ill quite a few years before he stopped teaching and he had to quit once he got really ill but he decided to go on the journey of visiting his high school students I think he taught a Miami or something and he just wanted to see how his teaching had impacted them as people and the stories I mean I can hardly tell the story without getting choked up about it because he went all across the country and he talked to these students and he said you know the main thing they they were impacted by what it is that I taught I think he was an English teacher and he evoked passion you know for writing and so forth but he said the thing that most people really said they appreciated the most was just the time that I spent with them those little moments where I actually acknowledge them and and spend them some time with them and make them feel good and though like those are those moments my god for for how many teachers are there on the planet where those moments are those that are absolutely defining for somebody some kid in that moment who came from a really shitty family background right who needed an adult to care in that moment and that for them is going to be a defining moment that ended up totally changing the trajectory of their lives I want to honor those kinds of choices that we make about bodies of work and not just worship at the altar of who's created a multi-million dollar business right or who's written the next best-selling book I love this I then this is why I wanted to have you back because I I knew that there's there's something very special to me about this message you know when I remember when when I heard you talk about it at the misfit conference and then when you sent me the book I thought to myself I said this is something that has been missing from our conversation for a really long time we just we we've kind of nobody's really talked about it this way and and I think the idea that hey my I think back to something Amber Rae told me she said you know a friend of her said that you know you're calling and the expression of your calling can be two completely different things explaining football to the friend who's just there for the nachos hard tailgating from home like a pro with snacks and drinks everyone will love any easy win and with Instacart helping deliver the snack time MVPs to your door you're ready for the game in as fast as 30 minutes so you never miss a play or lose your seat on the couch or have to go head to head for the last chicken wing shop game day faves on Instacart and enjoy zero-dollar delivery fees on your first three gross reorders offer valid for a limited time other fees in terms apply 1 800 flowers dot com knows that a gift is never just a gift a gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships 1 800 flowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift from flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate 1 800 flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel to learn more visit 1 800 flowers dot com slash a cast that's 1 800 flowers dot com slash a cast hey there it's greenian hemo and we are back and better than ever got your answers is for sale and if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life this is the book for you we take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them settle them once and for all meanwhile hemo what's your favorite part of the book 100 sneaky hemo trivia question all that and a whole lot more it's called got your answers it's available anywhere you get your books right now discover hydro the best kept secret in fitness hydro is the state of the art at home rower that engages 86 percent of your muscles delivering the ultimate full body workout in just 20 minutes from advanced to beginner hydro has over 500 classes shot worldwide and taught by olympians and world-class athletes for a 30-day risk-free trial go to hydro dot com and use code row 450 to save 450 dollars on a hydro pro rower that's h y d r o w dot com code row 450 forging ahead together drives colorado's pioneering spirit at chevron we donate funding and volunteer thousands of hours in support of the communities we call home we also employ our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer all to help improve lives in our shared backyard that's energy in progress visit colorado dot chevron dot com Ryan Reynolds here for mid mobile with the price of just about everything going up during inflation we thought we'd bring our prices down so to help us we brought in a reverse auctioneer which is apparently a thing mid mobile unlimited premium wireless have it to get 30 30 30 30 get 20 20 20 20 get 15 15 15 just 15 bucks a month so give it a try at mid mobile dot com slash switch 45 dollars up from payment equivalent to 15 dollars per month new customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabyte c detail nice yes and and i really and that that's kind of the message i want people to take away because you know i mean i see you know as as you may have caught like i wrote this lengthy update called the mimicry epidemic on facebook and and of course tons of people had something to say about it and to me this is the way out of it like this is the way you get out of it is to say you know what what could i do i love that you know i always say the advice is ingredients and the recipe is yours and you know when we look at how we did everything we did with our rebrand i think it was literally let's take the hundreds of ideas that we've received from our guests over the years and let's mix them up in a way that nobody else would think to do and and of course you know i think that the idea that i'll be forever defined by this one thing is something that that is that i'm over now and and to hear it put this way at least i hope that it will be liberating for people because it in my mind it frees you up to explore the fact that you may have talents you don't even know are there or that have been completely lost exactly and it you don't know you may a lot of it is tied to when is the right time in your life in in order to to use those talents and you don't much like i your if you're you're climbing a mountain and you don't really see the next one until you get over the crest of the top of that hill that that's one of the things i enjoy so much about getting older is that i do see oh my gosh like if i were 27 instead of 47 doing these things i don't i wouldn't have done them the same way i wouldn't have had the same kind of realization and so in that way everything has its right time and you're right it's it's hard to let go of things sometimes even more that have been successful where you get very known to for a certain brand or a certain thing that you do and to know that you know it's okay i mean anything it is always going to be part of your body of work nobody can take that away from you what it is that you have created but you know that you're ready to begin to shift and and create something else when you feel that you don't have that same kind of of connection with it i remember one of my mentors talking about seeing Jimmy Buffett who maintains this incredible way to sing margarita ville with like at you know the same kind of passion and connection like can you imagine if you're the rolling stones and you're you're singing brown sugar for the i don't know 12 000th time you know to a stadium full of people you can see some bands who are able to continue to stay connected with a mission or maybe they love performing so much or maybe they get high off of you know people experiencing the music and so they can still stay creative you see the difference with those that are not connected anymore you know who are just totally dialing it in and that's where it's like dude you know to get off the stage that's not your only time right either other things you can do which is why i was so happy to showcase john legend you know in my book is one example of somebody right who's an amazing talented musician he's still a young dude so i can imagine he still has so much more left in what he's doing but you know even when he started on his music journey he was a management consultant you know but he got all kinds of business skills he's a philanthropist he's interested in education and does television shows and all these different things i love to see examples like that you know because we don't professional sports people i was talking with fran tarkington you know who was the old quarterback in the nfl who's been in business and he's been in radio and like always reinventing himself and and that's what i think ends up keeping us both creatively alive and healthy and active but also protects us from like getting stuck in some sad character you know caricature of like how we were at our prime in 1984 or something and that's when we start doing plastic surgery and you know life starts to go down you probably weren't even born in 1984 so i was actually okay for those younger whippers snappers yeah i'm sure i'm sure there are some people there there are definitely people listening to this and that's you know anytime we make 80s pop culture references i always have to think like somebody listening weren't even around you know with yesterday we were going by the top gun house and like i bet i have people in my audience who've never seen top gun that's right yeah well pam uh this has been really awesome so i'm going to close my final question which you know i i always try to find ways to vary this question up but uh it's interesting i guess in the context of a body of work you know when you look at people who have created you know what we look at as successful bodies of work you know our the authors the artists we admire you know the people who go out and do like these crazy public works projects you know i keep hearing it one of somebody referred to uh referenced a guy who built the skyline in New York is it i don't know if it's a skyline or the high line i keep forgetting uh but i mean that's a 10 year project which means somebody saw something and was willing to put 10 years into something that massive and i mean even your dad is a perfect example what i mean what do you think it is that separates in person who can take on such gargantuan projects within their body of work and bring them to life from the ones who don't who who can't do that i think it is uh first of all people who are really willing to to bet on themselves that that do believe that the work that they are doing in the world um makes a difference and and they're willing to really figure out you know really like do their work in in order to you know figure out how to break creative blocks and you know value themselves it's so Saturday night life cliche that you know we're good enough we're smart enough the dog on it people like us but you know what there's nothing like that you know when you do fundamentally love yourself and you believe in in your mission i think that is something that is really important fuel but ironically those that do end up in my experience creating the kinds of things that are the most significant in the long term are those that enjoy every single step and that don't look and say i'm you know i'm gonna spend the next 25 years doing this but just look ahead of them and and say my god this is so interesting i totally think this is cool we should do this like my dad did so many years ago when you know as a non-profit they bought the school and just enjoyed each step of the process it's every day execution every day execution and that's where i see people that really fall by the wayside you know if they just get lost in wanting to do everything at the same time and kind of gulp it all in and then they they never make it they just don't pace themselves yeah i think you bring up a very critical point i mean as i'm putting together the the bits and pieces of the instigator experience i'm like wow i'm talking to shuttle providers and caters i really am planning the wedding that i'm not going to have a wife at the end of it's you know but i'm realizing you know like to me even though those little tiny things they're not great i found that okay this is way more manageable if i break it up into hundreds of pieces and by the time april rolls around i get to see the fruits of my labor exactly exactly and if you if you don't get some kind of weird pleasure at just checking those small things off your list then it is hard to to really see it through you know in in the long term but that's that's how things get done you know that's how things get done and and to me the true measure of life is just is enjoying it while you're living it you know feeling good at the end of the day even if it was a rough day knowing that you're it's worthwhile what what it is that you're doing awesome well pam i like i said i was absolutely thrilled to have you back uh to me this this message is one that i've i've wanted to share with our audience here at the unmistakable creative for some time and i i can't thank you enough for taking the time to join us and share some of your insights with us thank you for having me back i truly truly appreciate it yeah absolutely today's episode of the unmistakable creative has been brought to you by cells that's s-e-l-z dot com cells gives you the freedom to sell from any website quickly with no programming no special templates or special themes needed while giving your customer a completely seamless experience thanks for listening in on another candid conversation at the unmistakable creative embrace your inner misfit express your creative voice and remember the goal isn't to live forever but to create something that will let's talk about something that's not always top of mind but still really important life insurance why because it offers financial protection for your loved ones and can help them pay for things like a mortgage credit card debt it can even help fund an education and guess what life insurance is probably a lot more affordable than you think in fact most people think life insurance is three times more 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our neighbors to deliver the energy needed as the state's largest oil and natural gas producer all to help improve lives in our shared backyard that's energy in progress visit colorado dot chevron dot com discover hydro the best kept secret in fitness hydro is the state of the art at home rower that engages 86 percent of your muscles delivering the ultimate full body workout in just 20 minutes from advanced to beginner hydro has over 500 classes shot worldwide and taught by olympians and world-class athletes for a 30-day risk-free trial go to hydro dot com and use code row 450 to save 450 dollars on a hydro pro rower that's h y d r o w dot com code row 450 hey there it's grandi and hemo and we are back and better than ever got your answers is for sale and if you are interested in winning every sports debate you have for the rest of your life this is the book for you we take the 100 biggest sports debates and answer them settle them once and for all meanwhile hemo what's your favorite 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Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity well what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel we've just published an amazing new ebook called the four keys to success in an AI world and this is more than just a guide it's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch the skills that are essential for standing out and thriving no matter how much technology evolved we're talking about real differentiators here like creativity emotional intelligence critical thinking and much more inside you'll find actionable insights and strategies to develop these skills whether you're a creative person a business person or just simply someone who loves personal development this isn't a story about tech taking over it's a story of human creativity thriving alongside AI picture this AI as your creative co-pilot not just as a tool but a collaborator that enhances your unique human skills the four keys ebook will show you exactly how to do that and view AI in a new way that empowers you instead of overshadows you transform your creative potential today head over to unmistakablecreative.com/fourkeys use the number four K-E-Y-S that's unmistakable creative.com/fourkeys and download your free copy you you you You You

The various work modes of Pam's career
Why having a sporadic work history isn't a problem
How farming influenced the early part of Pam's career
An incredible story about hand restoring a 100 year old school
The epidemic of doing work your'e not excited about it
Overcoming the limiting self beliefs of big projects
The tunnel vision of the non-conformist mindset
Why you shouldn't obsess over your work mode
The reason there is perfect way to be with your career
Working towards contributing and making something better
Finding your individual sacred journey
The moments in your life and and career that are tipping points
Why acting interested in your work when you're not is dangerous
The good intentions of parental advice
Why people change and blossom when they're able to do the right work
Finding the right combination of Ingredients to create great work
Why the search for a singular purpose can get in your way
Learning to developing criteria for the work that you want to do

The various work modes of Pam's career
Why having a sporadic work history isn't a problem
How farming influenced the early part of Pam's career
An incredible story about hand restoring a 100 year old school
The epidemic of doing work your'e not excited about it
Overcoming the limiting self beliefs of big projects
The tunnel vision of the non-conformist mindset
Why you shouldn't obsess over your work mode
The reason there is perfect way to be with your career
Working towards contributing and making something better
Finding your individual sacred journey
The moments in your life and and career that are tipping points
Why acting interested in your work when you're not is dangerous
The good intentions of parental advice
Why people change and blossom when they're able to do the right work
Finding the right combination of Ingredients to create great work
Why the search for a singular purpose can get in your way
Learning to developing criteria for the work that you want to do

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