(upbeat music) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Hello and welcome to Country Stride, the podcast dedicated to the landscapes people and heritage of Kombria and the Lake District. I'm here today on an early summer's afternoon at the head of Windermere in Boren's Park just outside Ambleside in the company as ever of author, illustrator and act guide for today's walk, Mark Richard Salomark. Hello David, great to be here. I love this setting. Surrounded fells, once held pike, redscreens, fairfield horseshoe, todcrag, a lovely surrounded trees, a lovely meadow. And there's a Roman fort here as well, that's a thumbs up for me as well. Doesn't get better than that, does it? And sure, yeah, we're on the edge of Tourist Lakeland here. But nothing wrong with that once in a while, and we should make a note of these hay meadows at the moment, Mark. They're getting near their peak, they're really looking good, we've got busicups, meadowsweet, the swallows are overhead. It was forecast rain, hasn't rained yet, it's looking good, so I'm really looking forward to today's walk. Now, the clue to today's podcast is in the great body of water to our south, Windermere. And very particularly, somebody who has dedicated the last three years to its health. Somebody in my mind who is one of the greatest campaigners living in this country at the moment, we're lucky to have him on our doorstep. Who is our guest today, Mark? Well, we're very lucky to be able to capture the time of a man who's greatly in demand. Matt Staniek, who's a man from Ambleside, only 28, and yet he has tremendous devotion to this one cause, and he will not be shaken off it. Yeah, it's remarkable to think, given how much noise he has made, that this campaign is just three years old, incredible really. And that's the Save Windermere campaign, which is calling for an end to sewage going into the lake, simple as that. What I'm interested in today, Mark, not only that campaign and the science of sewage, I'm also interested in the man behind the mission. Who is Matt? What is driving him? What does he do for downtime? And of course, we will need to subject him to our quickfire questions. Now, what walk have you got planned for us today, Mark? Well, I think it's quite simple, really. You go from waterhead where every congregate is on their boats and so on. But we're going to walk up Lawrence Park upstream with the raw thing up to the compliments. We may go a little bit further, but ostensibly, we're looking at this meadow setting and the transition of the water course itself. I can see Matt over there. Characteristically, he's wearing his shorts. Let's go and meet Matt and set off on today's Country Stride. I'm standing beside the shores of Windermere. I'm on a shingle shore with ducks, Mallard ducks. In the background, I'm looking to clave heights, latter barrow, the estuate valley, and over to my right, I see black fell. And right down the lake, I can see quite a long way, and I'm at waterhead, and there's people paddle boarding. That's the way the regular cruise up and down the lake entertains many people in the virtues of this very special lake. And to emphasize the specialness of this lake, I have with me Matt Staniek. And it's great to see you, Matt. Many of our listeners will know that you are part of something very special and the leading part of it. Yeah, so as you say, my name is Matt Staniek and I'm the founder of the Save Windermere campaign, which has been set up for the last three years, and we are campaigning to end sewage pollution into Lake Windermere. I thought it would be a nice story and a nice chronology of the last three years if I brought you to where this campaign started. So I've brought you here to waterhead and we're going to go up the river road there as I tell you exactly why this campaign started, what was the trigger point for me, and then hopefully we'll take you to some lovely sewage pipes on the way as well. Fascinating to walk along the shores of the lake like this on such a gentle calm day. Matt, can you give me a bit of a feel for your sort of upbringing in this setting? I grew up in Windermere and it's a place that my family has lived here for, you know, a number of generations. It's somewhere that I care about very strongly and for me, the real passion I have for the area is for the conservation of the ecology. That's what I fundamentally see myself as. As time goes on, I'm being quoted more and more as being an activist in a campaign, but it's about conservation for me as solely as to why I'm doing what I'm doing. Something within this area that I think people need to really appreciate and want to protect is the local ecology. It's always been a part of my childhood. When I was a kid, orphaned ducklings would come in. I've raised hedgehogs and it was something that my grand used to do and her grand used to, you know, there's always been a special place in our family home for wildlife and for nature. I guess that was a real inspiration for me growing up and it's one of the reasons why I felt so strongly towards wildlife and conservation and watching figures in my childhood like Steve Owen who was a massive inspiration for me. It was really instilled at a young age and then I decided that, you know, this was the route I was going to go down. I was going to try and find my own path as to how I'm going to conserve the natural world and happen to fall into sewage. Which university did you attend? So I was in Solford in Manchester, so it was there for three years and then at the end of that I was very much that I went into city living to see if it was something that I could adapt to and then realised, no, not for me so I'm going to return home to the late district and that's where I started doing a lot of work with Cambria Wildlife Trusts that was doing a lot on their reserves with active land management and guiding people around the nature reserves. And then it was at the end of doing a year's work for them was when I broke my neck in a car accident and that was the trigger point in many respects for this campaign. With that injury that you had, that made such a change to your life that you turned to your advantage. We'll explore this journey with you a little bit more. We've arrived at Boris Park actually on the Roman site. I can see the crinkle crags in the background, pike a bliss go to the west and of course to the north I'm looking up the Fairfield Horseshoe, redscrees and so forth. A wonderful backdrop of fells with a tonne crag overlooking us to the immediate north. I want to reflect Matt on that critical change that occurred after the accident. What did that lead to? It was a moment that changed my life fundamentally, it was the car accident. So it was in a side on collision and I broke my neck C7 I think it was fracturing my C7 vertebrae. They pumped me full of drugs and they stuck me in a neck brace. I went from being incredibly active on the fells doing lots of walking, hiking and things like that to being basically immobile in many respects. In that period I was like well I need to still keep getting outside because for me it's the love of the outdoors here that's such a big draw for me. And so I started coming down here and you can see around the edge of the Roman fort it's nice and flat and this was somewhere that my grand used to take me as a kid like just behind us as you're looking towards the redscrees. Galava gate gas house was built by my great grandad and that's where my grand was born so I've got quite fond memories of her bringing me down here walking me to the river and just seeing the beauty of the area. It was somewhere that in that moment of having a real need for mental health reprieve it was somewhere that drew me back in and that's why I started coming here. I continued to go in here while I was in my neck brace and even after the neck brace because I was seeing such an incredible array of wildlife down here that it was somewhere that I just kept coming down to. The way it's managed by the National Trust is just phenomenal it's an incredibly diverse area. On the back side which is run and managed by the mutts and ground estate you've got semi-natural ancient woodland you've got hay meadows on the other side you've got beautiful riparian edges full of yellow flag iris and reed beds you know it's an incredibly species rich and biodiverse area. Having witnessed from quite early on in your life all this diversity in the flora and fauna you noticed there's something wrong in the water what was that? I guess there was a definitive moment in time where I really saw it but it was very much as well almost a chronic exposure to the situation where I was coming here every single day and I took up wildlife photography at that moment in time so I was instinctively spending a lot more time really focusing on what was happening around me and for me the turning point was after the COVID it was when people went from being locked in their homes to returning to the National Park and I saw a very sharp and sudden decline in the water quality and the biodiversity of the area and I'm fundamentally not a fresh water ecologist so I didn't know what was going on but I knew that something was wrong because the water became more turbid it was turning green I was seeing lots of fungus growing on sticks the riverbed that used to be full of aquatic plants when I was growing up was suddenly there and there wasn't any within it and it was a real moment where it was some of these flagship species that you would really expect down here disappearing in front of me which was when I asked myself the question okay well what is going on and I'll show you as we walk around there was this little dipper that used to sit on this perch every single morning and I would lie within just a few meters of it and I would watch it as it would fly to the other side of the river dip into the watering catch case cut his fly fly back to the perch whack them out of their cases and it would just go back and forth all day every day and I was guaranteed to come down here and see that dipper and then one morning after the covid lockdowns had been lifted that dipper had gone and you now do not see dippers fishing below Ambleside wastewater treatment works it was through that sort of investigatory process which I've carried on through the years in which I found out just how much sewage in it utilities is dumping into wind a bit well you've given us a measure of your observation we'll walk a little further and we're looking to the science of sewage that was a lovely little interlude coming along the boardwalk through the gates with the shores of the lake disappearing behind us and we come onto this wonderful meldoma can you describe it to us because it is quite a transformation in habitat and visually you're enveloped really by the mountains that encompass wind mirror is top end and then you've got the water behind you and you've got everything here you've got some martins flying through otters and there are kingfishers ragged robins meldos we you've got so many beautiful niches of habitat that will likely not really be found like this anywhere else in the lake district you got the with a reed warbler we just blah edge warbler yeah yeah hanging on whilst it was calling out it's this which is what people really need to see as fundamentally what the lake district needs to become it needs to be an area where conservation is key that people can come and engage with it and appreciate and love the area and then finding that place that agriculture also plays its part within that and this is all grazed land and when you look at it you can't quite believe it right you know it's fluoristically diverse there's hedge robes on either side of the of the hay meadow and it's just somewhere where you can really demonstrate that this is the future of the national park and you give us a sense that this is a warm engaging place but the science of sewage what is going on in wind mirror this is where my love for the air kind of flips on its head because it's what's happening below the surface when we talk about sewage and wind mirror we're essentially talking about the input of nutrient into the lake wind mirror in its natural state is classified as an oligotrophic lake which means that it is incredibly low naturally in nutrient that algal blooms are unlikely or do not occur within oligotrophic lake so everything that we see when you see wind mirror in the news is due to the result of anthropogenic pressures within this area the main nutrient that is coming into wind mirror comes from sewage both currently and historically and united utilities is number one that lists as the single largest input of this nutrient into wind mirror the nutrient is essentially fertilizer for algae so when you get lots of the nutrient you get lots of algae and the algal blooms get worse when it's warm and it's dry that's what really proliferates algal growth now the big threat to wind mirror is this extensive algal growth not only to those that love the area because cyanobacteria is potentially toxic to you your pets and wildlife but the big threat when we talk about the overarching threat to the ecology of wind mirror what we're talking about there is something like a mass fish kill now that would occur if an algal bloom was big enough that it depleted the oxygen within wind mirror low enough to cause a fish kill unfortunately because not as enough has been done to address this at its root cause then we don't know what the future of wind mirror holds you know if we take this summer as an example if we see a prolonged drought period in August this year you know similarly to what they saw in the South Mediterranean with prolonged 40 degree heat then that's going to put an inordinate amount of stress on the lake that is unadaptable to that threat if it is prolonged enough and there is enough need to go into the lake then this could cause a fish kill within wind mirror so there are two other sources of pollution to sewage one is agriculture but then there's the septic tanks from domestic situations okay let's break this down into the two let's look at agricultural first have a look around and see if you can see a single sheep or cow from where we're stood right now incidentally nothing when it comes to agriculture having a massive impact on fresh water you're talking about arable farming you're talking about intensive dairy and you're talking about intensive poultry we don't have any of that within this catchment we have primarily sheep grazing which is unlikely to cause a trophication of water bodies we also have farmers signing up to higher tier countryside stewardship schemes and they're reducing their agricultural input within this catchment even further than they already have would planting the entirety of this catchment improve wind mirrors water quality if you stuck a billion trees here no it wouldn't because this is not the core issue that wind mirror faces now when we move on to septic tanks and packaged treatment works they cannot remove phosphate and they cannot remove nitrate and that's the key nutrient or the fertilizer that's feeding the algae within wind mirror so you can talk about emptying schemes you could talk about registration schemes you could look after your septic tanks are the best of your ability it cannot remove nitrate and it cannot remove phosphate so what do we have in front of us which we can utilize to reduce the input of septic tanks and packaged treatment works into wind mirror well there's a piece of legislation the water industry act it's section one or one a of the water industry act that demonstrates that if you were to request you nice utilities to take ownership of your non-main drains under the first time sewage scheme and they have a legal obligation to do so so let's talk about what is absolutely necessary for wind mirror the non-main drainage has to be connected to the mains as it should have done since privatisation there should have been happening progressively the problem with wind mirror is sewage and that's not what's being addressed is there a difference between treated and untreated sewage there's two things that we talk about when it comes to wind mirror when it comes to united utilities input there's the untreated sewage and there's the treated sewage so untreated sewage that's what's been front and centre in the press in recent years and rightfully so it's untreated sewage and it contains all the nasty bacteria that you would anticipate within sewage what happens in if we take ample side as an example as the flow comes into the works if there's rainfall which means the site cannot cope it diverts it to the storm tank in which it's then screened and then it's passed into the river as an overflow system now that untreated sewage has the nutrient that feeds the algae there's also the treated sewage which goes through the treatment process at the wastewater treatment works but on the back end of that it still contains the nutrient that feeds the algae and what's really fascinating is that untreated sewage you actually do tend to most often see it in rainfall treated sewage has been pumped into this catchment day in and day out from just six of united utility sites within the catchment they're being permitted by the environment agency to dump up to 13 million litres a day of treated sewage which has the nutrient that feeds the algae the current of the rivers that run down the lake do they concentrate that as well what you tend to see is when the rivers actually start to run low the concentration of nutrients starts to increase I've worked closely with a group in Ambleside, Ambleside Action for a Future and we've been sampling the water course in and around Ambleside wastewater treatment works and when the level of the rove drops within the summer months that obviously means that the flow that's coming from Ambleside wastewater treatment works equates to far more of the flow of the river so Ambleside wastewater treatment works as the example they're permitting up to 1.8 million litres a day in treated sewage but obviously when the river starts to flow less in drought conditions you're talking about 20-30% of the river is then taken up by treated sewage so you've got hot spots within the lake where you have more concentration of nutrient coming from the sewage inputs and the great example is Windermere wastewater treatment works which is the largest within the catchment and the EA is permitting up to 5.5 million litres a day of this treated sewage into the south basin of Windermere the chief executive of the environment agency recently came out and so the staff members within the environment agency are actively withholding information to protect reputation that is when you look at the definition of institutional corruption it comes very very close to that you've got a system in place here where the failures to protect Windermere are the failures of the privatised 7 billion pound water company and it's the failure of the regulator to hold them accountable the environment agency has failed to protect Windermere and what they're doing as time goes on is they're trying to mislead us and they're trying to deflect away from the real conversation that has to be had and that is how do we stop sewage going into Windermere? For those who don't exactly know the role of the environment agency as protector of the environment as it were could you give us a little thumbnail view of it? Well I guess you've just kind of done it they are there to protect the environment and they're also the regulator of the water industry they're supposed to be ensuring that they're not in breach of their permits they're supposed to be doing inspections they're supposed to attend pollution incidences and time and time again we've got continuous evidence to demonstrate they are failing to hold United Utilities accountable and you've got some really you know shocking sorts of freedom of information requests that have really provided an insight into why some of this could be going wrong and one of my key examples of this is a guy called Dr. Elfick who was a non-executive director of the Northwest Region of the Environment Agency from 2011 to 2017 and before then he was a director at United Utilities so it's time within the environment agency he held chairs and a pension within United Utilities and you've just see time and time again the failure of the environment agency you've just got to ask yourself well why are they not holding the water company accountable for this why are they refusing to provide information and it's just a failure of the regulatory system within this country to get on top of the issue here which is that the water companies are prioritizing dividend return over environmental protection well we're heading a little bit further through this wonderful meadow we're talking about tourists next Lovely reflecting the sky in the waters here of the combined waters of the Royal Thé and the Bray they this is the confluence here I can see the Croft House with Todd Cragg above and just over the water there there's a heron keeping very coy very sharp eyed watching the scene looking immediately under the willow here I gather this is a secret spot of yours for seeing Dipper well it used to be it used to be some of that I'd see the dippers but yeah this is where it would land and then fly back and forth to the other side of the river as you can see the dipper is no more at this part of the river but if we go you know 400 500 meters upstream then we find them again and it's like what's the difference between here and further upstream we're below the sewage pipe at this point I think I want to talk about it's a catchment or what this scale of the catchment of these combined rivers I know it goes all the way up to Beaufell if I remember right that's the western most point in the old county of Westmoreland so it's way way up Great Langdale and Little Langdale to the west and it goes up to the north yeah and I think what's really important for people to understand about that is that we can't just focus on what is directly going into Windermere it's what is feeding all of these different rivers because the two main ones that we talk about when it comes to United Utilities Impoise you've got Ambleside wastewater stream works which is just above us here it's so close to Windermere itself it may as well be discharging directly but then you've got on the south base in Windermere wastewater treatment works but on top of that you've also got Grussmere wastewater treatment works Langdale, Hawks head pumping station, Hawks head wastewater treatment works near sorry you've got all these sewage works that are feeding into the rivers but the point is is that it flows down the rivers and it then collates into Windermere because Windermere is the final place where all these rivers meet before they then go down the River Levin into Moorcombe Bay so it's incredibly important to not just think of Windermere as the lake but Windermere as the catchment in its entirety but where we're stood now I think the statistic is is that three quarters of Windermere water comes down these two rivers here looking into the water here and there's two Mallards, Delken Adrecht is going over the wonderfully reflective waters but actually if I look into the water you can see the bed it's only about a foot down from the surface and see some kind of growth I would envisage this as being potentially a clean bed of a river but it isn't so yeah when I'm talking about the nutrient enrichment in the water course what you're really looking at is that slime that covers the river bed and is on every single stone that you can see and when we talk about what is happening in Windermere this isn't just unique to Windermere, this is happening all over the country so if you just go down to your local river if you can't see the bottom of the water course particularly if it's shallow or you see the stones covered in a slime then you're looking at nutrient enrichment within your river you tend to see the impact of that on the macroinvertebrates or the little insects that live within the water course you should be able to count every single stone on the bed of that river you should see thousands of fish, you should see lots of aquatic plants and you just need to look at it to know that something's going wrong and that's why the campaign started because I started seeing more and more of this within the river we've just been joined by a whole horde of ducklings I think they're hoping for us to feed them some bread well we've gone further over to the Roman fort and this has given me the great opportunity to talk about quickfire questions which all our listeners love to hear especially somebody who's born and bred in this setting you're bound to be able to give us something special have you got a favourite in Lakeland fell? I really like Side Pike that's looking over the Langdell Valley I think that's one of the most beautiful places you can turn around and look at Bletar you can also turn the other way and you can see the Neolithic Axe factory or where the screars you can look at the farmland in the area it's one of my favourite places to go put it aside Side Pike have you got another favourite view in Cumberland Lake District? I think it even just coming down here and looking directly down the lake from the north and puts it into perspective of just the scale of it and the significance of it the north and near Warth Head and just looking down Windermere is somewhere I find incredibly inspiring if you're on a wall Matt, where did your mind wander? it's really sad but all I think about now is pollution in water causes it's not quite meant by the brain drain what's really beautiful about this area is you can still go to these places where there is no sewage input we spoke about it very briefly at Ride or Beck where Chris Hodgson farms you got there, the water is crystal clear you can count every single stone it's full of fish and it's really inspiring to see these places that aren't being exploited and it shows you what pure Lake District water should look like what's your favourite season of the Lakeland year? this time of year, you know, Maytime, late spring, early summer when the flowers are all coming out the trees and the tree canopies are full of leaf it's a really, really magnificent time to be in the Lake District if you were able to go back into the history of Cumbria it's really time that you'd like to be a party to I think it would be fascinating to be down here where we are now when the Romans had their settlement and civilisation around the area but I guess as well, you know, when my grandma was a kid in the 1920s to see what the water quality was like you know, before we had the real mass sewage systems within the area just when she was alive and she would tell me the stories of the fish within the water courses you know, to see that, it must have been amazing to see have you a Lakeland hero, a heroine, dead or alive? I'm particularly inspired by Danny Teesdale and what he achieves with the all's water CIC, I think, you know, Danny really finds that niche of conservation, agriculture and the need for the ecological integrity of the area but ensuring that the cultural practices and the agricultural practices are then the work he does with remiandering rivers and reinstating these lost water courses is truly phenomenal, I think he's an incredible guy He's very persuasive within the community, which is the key thing, isn't it? You've got to have nobody on your side to make that work Have you favourite Lakeland food? Christ, these questions are difficult Oh, home ground in Windermere is like my go-to place I tend to do a lot of working there as well, you know, sitting in it The food there's amazing, the stuff are incredible Rich, the owner is really supportive of the campaign as well So if I ever go anywhere, home ground in Windermere is a phenomenal place to go Is it very busy there? It's incredibly busy there I was just going to say, because it's going to get very busy now If you were to take a book to a desert island on Lakeland, what would it be? You can't really go wrong with Swallows and Amazons as a book based on the late districts Could you describe your perfect Lakeland day? Definitely going up on a nice summer's day Hiring to the catchment where there is no sewage input and spending time around the water courses When they're un-polluted and they're just crystal clear That's really for me where you can really appreciate why it's called the late districts And why it's named after the water Have a look at our interactive sewage map Find out where the sewage pipes are and go above them And just marvel at the beauty of pure late district water What would you describe as the unique magic of the lake district? I think it's not only the people, but it's the landscape and it's the topography Particularly when you look around Windermere, you have this incredible stand of semi-natural ancient woodland All around the lake shore itself You're immediately within a very green space I mean arguably there's a lot of overgrazing and things like that within the late district But you know you have this incredible balance in certain places Like we are down here today where agricultural conservation and tourism can all come together You have these moments where you can see the future of the national park And it's incredibly exciting and we need organizations that are failing to really replicate that elsewhere To stand up and protect the late district Now this is a tough question to ask somebody who's only 28 When the time does come and you want your friends to gather in a special place to reflect on your life Where might that be? I'd want to be set on fire as a Viking burial and pushed right into the north base of the lake So I can go down in flames I would insist as if I was to meet an untimely end But I'd want a bronze toilet placed outside of United Tiles' Information Center in the heart of Windermere Well we left the meadow and we'd come out of the Bronwyn Nixon footbridge over the Royal thing We've actually had a lovely engaging conversation Well certainly Matt has with a couple who immediately recognized him There are a couple from York who appreciate Windermere and the setting Applaudy what he's engaged in which is lovely to see It'd be intriguing to learn a little bit about the map impact project that you've been master minding It came up with some really interesting statistics Quite shocking statistics because essentially we were looking at chlorophyll A concentration within the lake from the satellite imagery Which is your indicator of the algal biomass But we were overlaying that with mobile phone data So you had how many people were in the north and the south base and of the lake On any given moments in day when we had the satellite imagery to contrast it with And what was really startling and it reaffirms to me as to why I saw that sharp decline in the biodiverse In the river following the lockdown period because there were single days when people returned to the National Park Where there was over 300,000 people in and around Windermere Like the city of Nottingham just descending on Windermere one day The second thing that we demonstrated was again a much long held sounding of the campaign Was that climate change is put in and in order to our pressure on the system And lo and behold as a direct correlation between the temperature of the lake and algal growth within the lake Once again something that we already were aware of There is this issue where you have a tourist concentration The sheer number of people who come here The same must impact seriously on the effluent output Yeah absolutely you tend to see that in some of the operator self monitoring data Around times like Easter holidays in 2022 at Windermere wastewater in works You can see the concentration of phosphorus coming from the site is elevated in relation to its annual average permit So you can see that within the system We've also got examples of illegal spilling within Windermere Ambleside is a great example of that which tends to be representation of lack of capacity Within the wastewater treatment works itself So just recently we put a comment on one of the pollink applications in the area Because we've said Ambleside wastewater treatment works Clearly doesn't have capacity because it's spilling illegally So you cannot add more capacity to this sewer network But United Utilities are very clever in that they refuse to provide us data So when it comes to actually really really scrutinizing the true extent Of capacity issues within the catchment we just aren't being provided And one thing I'm very very keen to understand is It's very very easy to in this area determine how many hotels there are How many bed and breakfasts there are So how many people per room you can anticipate at any given moment in time But how do you equate for the day trippers that come to the area? How do you equate to how many people go into the local cafe And use the toilet day in, day out Particularly in these peak summer tourism loading periods of time And it's that side of this conversation that no one wants to address No one wants to talk about the fact that the sewage network doesn't have capacity And that's what's so interesting when it comes to this satellite data Is that we've demonstrated that the more people hear the more algae there is in the lake Does this lead to difficult conversations with the tourist industry? Actually as time has gone on we are receiving more and more support From the tourism industry that ever before I would argue now that actually the vast majority do support the campaign And want to see an end to sewage pollution within Windemir We've got Lakes Bruco, they've just released a Save Windemir beer Which is raising funds for the campaign Apple Pie and Ambal Side 25P on every one of their apple pies goes towards Save Windemir These are businesses that are absolutely reliant on this industry But they see that we can't have short sightedness anymore We need the long term protection for the area We need to end sewage pollution in the water courses And that will only protect these local businesses But it will protect future generations Now you've had some remarkable support from chefs particularly Yeah, you don't tend to think that chefs and sewage go together But in a strange world that we live in A whole group of Michelin star restaurants, suppliers And local restaurants came together to help fundraise for us And what was called the Shaftes for Save Windemir event It was six Michelin star restaurants Including Old Stump House in Ambal Side As well as Simon Rogan They all saw the importance to protect the area To protect their business and to ensure the sustainability As time goes on I'm seeing that it's not just people wanting to protect their businesses This is just people that care deeply about the area These are people that their local people, their kids go to local schools So it's inspiring to see and I think what people can see as well As the campaign has gone on, this isn't just about loud noise This is evidence that's being backed up This is about influencing Westminster And as a result of that, Windemir is in our front and centre As we lead up to the general election As the number one case to be in the country where sewage is destroying its ecology We'll walk a little bit further and then we'll examine a case study That shows what can be done Here We've backtracked and we've come across to the medio again In fact we bumped into another guy with a dog who related to the fact That he'd lost a dog from the pollution in the lake And he's somebody who loves his setting Now it'd be good to be able to turn it back around to the more positive And hopeful and visionary view of the future You've got a case study on the go at the moment We've got several, which makes it even more compelling Our number one case study is what happened in Lake Odyssey in France And it's for a number of reasons really It's because it started to see issues in the lake around the same time as Windemir It's got some phenomenal similarities that it's about 10km in length Windemir is a similar, it's two bases, Windemir is similar There's a really nice sort of comparison that you can have there But the fundamental difference is that when they started to see the decline of their lake Which they marked as increase in algal blooms and declines in fish populations They did something about it, which was that they built a pipeline around the entire circumference of Odyssey It collected all of the wastewater, sent it to one wastewater streamworks And they discharged out of the Odyssey catchment They took a long-term approach They put in a long-term infrastructural investment plan that it protected their lake forever Whilst what we've had is some reduction of nutrient over time But we've not seen enough done in the face of a changing climate Another key example that we've got is Elder Water The solution that was achieved for Elder Water following the mass fish kill Was that they moved the Langdale wastewater stream pipe below Elder Water To stop discharging sewage into Elder Water itself I love a case study in Lake Washington and America And it's just time and time and time again That people finally address once the catastrophe has happened What is absolutely necessary to protect these lakes? And it's to stop putting sewage into them United Utilities from an engineering perspective is shown that it is achievable within Windmere This is now down to political will In practical terms Do you see a great loop of pipe that goes all the way around Or three-quarters way around the lake dispensing their water Beyond the outflow of the lake When you start talking about the engineering I've got to take a step back and say I'm not an engineer It's something that I have to be very, very aware of But when I see it I look at some other plans that United Utilities have put forward In 2013 they produced a catchment report for Windmere In which they were looking at where they could place a variety of levels of investment to protect the lake And one thing that they looked at was actually building a pipeline The wastewater treatment works down and out of Windmere itself And they envisioned putting this pipe underneath the shore of the lake Down to a rising man at the level and then out into the level of history And it was only going to cost 25 million pounds And they made the decision not to go forward with that project on the basis of cost And it was cost savings over the protection of the environment So when it comes to what it actually looks like Does it look like a pipe network around the circumference of the lake? Is it like a pipe network in the lake? I don't know and nor do I really care As long as the objective at the end is to completely remove sewage To take it to a brand new wastewater treatment works That has the capacity to deal with a city descending on it every single year And it needs to be treating sewage down to the highest technologically achievable level You know levels that we see in Scandinavia and countries and things like that But it then leads back to where should it be discharged And it needs to go to a body of water that has a greater dilution factor And natural processing can absorb this nutrient because that's where Windermere has been failed That's what's known as the sea Yeah exactly, yeah, it's a much bigger volume of water When we look at that broader conversation of what can be achieved from an engineering perspective You only have to look at film here and what they've achieved from 2015 to 2022 In which they instated 99 kilometers worth of pipeline They even bored under Castle Rig Stone Circle And that was to move drinking water from film here reservoir to the west coast of Kumbria And it took them seven years to complete it and a cost of only 300 million pounds And we're talking about a water company that's worth six or seven billion pounds Since privatization in relation to United Utilities Limited Professor David Hall from Greenwich University has demonstrated that the net shareholder contribution to United Utilities has been minus 14 billion pounds They've obstructed 12 billion pounds in profit They've racked up 8.9 billion pounds worth of debt When we look at them comparing those two projects I can't see why it would cost much more to achieve half that pipeline installation For the long-term protection of Windermere It just makes absolutely sense to me that that's what we need to do And it's now down to the politicians to make this happen Well we'll take a few more steps through this wonderful borrens park And then have a few final reflections Now we've found ourselves onto a rose mutone Rise in the meadow with grand oak trees There's a cospine I see a bat box on an oak tree It's a wonderful setting in the midst of borrens park Matt mentioned a moment ago He said there was an iron-aging campman on here Well it was a very small encampment certainly But it's clearly a great spot to stand and survey a wonderful landscape But it's an opportunity for me to survey your journey From a zoologist to a stunningly impactful campaigner I can't believe it, it's only been three years It can't all been easy Yeah, well for quite some time it was only me on my own With the entire thing, I figured it was either a year and a half or two years It was just me plugging away But now I'm incredibly fortunate that we've got a whole group of independent experts That are helping to back this now Someone I want to notice a guy called Finn Pattinson Who's helping to run the campaign It's incredibly important that we've got these people That see the significance of this lake and understand that we've got a real opportunity here To create a very long-lasting environmental legacy piece When you look back over the last three years you don't necessarily look back with fondness over the struggle that it has been But looking forward now it's a real time where we can get this done But we just need to ensure that Windermere is front and centre When the politicians are trying to decide what they do with our fresh water And even the best comedians warm to what you're saying Once again it's almost like the chefs talking about sewage Suraging comedians it seems to go hand in hand sometimes Steve Coogan in particular has been incredibly incredibly supportive of the campaigners He's helped quite a lot and he's going to be rejoining us on the 29th of June In which we're going to be marching from United Utilities Information Centre to the lake itself We're going to be joined by Lee Mack as well He's making a return visit and Paul Whitehouse is going to be a few of them coming down to join the march And it's a moment now for people of the community to come together And to add their voices to something that's far greater than any individual It's about the protection of England's largest lake in our home And what we need to do is we need to stand in solidarity with the message We have to ensure that we are making our voices as loud as humanly possible And so they have to do something about it and that's what this march on June 29th is all about Now you're so committed to this cause, goodness only knows if you've got any spare time at all But if you had any, what do you do? I don't really have any spare time to have engrossed every waking second of the last three years of my life So it's a seven day a week sort of job Unfortunately you're young enough and determined enough to not go away I think a lot of people, basically the environment is as United so as you would have liked me to have lost my interest by now As time's going on, I'm just more determined than ever And like I said, we've got this opportunity now It's now time to get this done and once it's achieved no one ever has to return to the topical conversation of sewage going into Lake Windermere ever again I'm over the moon by having this opportunity to speak to you Matt Your enthusiasm but your commitment and your understanding of the problems here And the way you've generated a following from all sides of the community And nationally is exemplary to enjoy to be with you [Music] It's a journey cent and we are next to one of these rusch-moo-tonnes mark Talk to us about them, I mean I love these things They're the tree covered rocky outcrops on there that you see in Raffet Park Yeah, indeed there's several in this valley bottom, you can see them all the way up to riddle and so on Even in Graspier there's some lovely ones there It's where this great body of ice, it might have been a mile high This great body of ice that's great in cross and created Windermere And created these great valleys But there was some volcanic rock that was so resilient that even it didn't get rubbed away And now they've got oak trees on them which is nice and there's a Scots pine there So that's been picture-restly added to the scene Right, let's reflect on the podcast, I mean I think among the many things to say One of the things that struck me is we bumped into quite a few people as we were recording They were all interested in what we were doing And Matt is so personable, he's not a kind of tub-thumping campaigner of old with zeal in his eyes He's just a really nice bloke who's going to have a chat and is very warm and incredibly engaging and genuine Yes, very persuasive, but also he knows the quality of the water Everything about it matters to people and because he is so steeped in it, people warm to him Yeah, I mean other things I really liked, I knew a bit about a kind of origin story, his accident But that lovely detail about the dipper, it was nice to see that spot He knows his flora and fauna inside out, it was lovely to get some insights into that And that question is when are you going to stop, the answer is he only stops when this is sorted And he's not going to give up, right, it ain't going to happen, that's not who he is Chief executives will come and go, but he won't Presumably for that reason, he's a complete nightmare for those chief executives is my view But he has absolutely all of my respect and support And I'm sure there are many listeners who already support his campaign If not, just type into Google, save Windermere And note that action, that march, I will be on it And I will be there too, it's a great rallying cry for everybody in society to realise that Water quality, wherever you live, matters And what's been done here, under Matt's championing, is relevant to everybody Oh and also, just the final thing is that walk's been really nice, I mean we haven't really walked very far, have we? But I love these wildflower meadows Did you encounter much like this on your long march? Yeah, the wildflower meadows in Ravenstondale were incredible, I mean they're in a slightly different league But then it's a different setting that, isn't it? Like this is a very specific water meadow effectively, isn't it? A bit of housekeeping, it costs us money to keep this show on the road There is a loyal band of listeners who give £2 a month to keep us afloat If you would like to be in their esteemed number, then you can do so by going to www.countrystride.co.uk And there you will find details about how you can support us The other way you can do it, you can buy one or all of our guidebooks Guidebooks with a countrystride spin to name the title's mark Well it's Trelkeld, Ulzwater, Ulzwater Way, Ambleside, currently That's true, and in fact a very kind supporter, but all four today Wow That's nice, so I've got to post office right now in Ambleside If that was you, then they'll be posted in Ambleside We must get this kesik walking companion finished I walked it all last year, except you do walk it all again now Yeah, that's exactly what I'm after at the moment, it's lots more walking Next fortnight, we don't quite know, but among many things we're talking to people about at the moment It is coal, the coal industry in Canberra, that's interesting, isn't it? Whitehaven, we will be going to and talk about the growth of that remarkable town But you castle? Yes, but you castle and the but you castle cross, very interesting All kinds of ideas, we're on social mark Facebook and X at Countrystride 1 Oh god, you didn't even say Twitter this time, that's it, it's all over Given to Musk's willpower And a reminder as well, if you haven't bought your tickets yet For our Countrystride evening session with Tom McNally and Phoebe Smith We're talking about what lies beneath some of the great mines and quarries of the lakes And also about long distance walking and healing If you want to come to that, that's in Ambleside, just above here It's at the Kelsey Center, the Force Cafe, on what date was that Mark? 19th of September OK, well that's us signing off for today from Barnes Park I'm going to go to some ducks flying overhead down to Windermere We'll say goodbye for now and see you on next fortnight's Countrystride [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]
