(upbeat music) - Hello everybody and welcome to the tip of the iceberg podcast, your home for Pittsburgh, Penguins, News and Analysis. You can find us on YouTube at tip of the iceberg or anywhere you get your podcast from, well, we're hoping everybody enjoys a nice and safe 4th of July today, but we got plenty of Penguins talk to kick off your festivities. First, a look at the best remaining options for top line winger for the Pittsburgh Penguins 'cause that is seemingly the last hole they need to fill this off season. Of course, they can do other things, but that is the one glaring need for the Pittsburgh Penguins moving forward. And then, are they better off on defense? Because it looks like the Pittsburgh Penguins may be done on their blue line. Are they better than they were last year? Do they have a higher ceiling and how high is that ceiling? We'll discuss that. And then, oh, this is gonna be a fun one. We check in on one of the longest trade trees in NHL history that is now hanging on by a thread. Gonna be a fun show. Let's get this started. And let's start things off with the best remaining options for the Pittsburgh Penguins because as we know, they still need somebody to play with Sydney Crosby. I don't mind Drew O'Connor. I thought he was fine last season in that role. But I think everybody is in agreement that they need to find an upgrade over Drew O'Connor there to allow O'Connor to bump down to the third line and to give Sydney Crosby somebody else to play with. Vladimir Terrasenko is off the board. He was the name that on Monday afternoon, Joshua of the athletic puts out that the Penguins had extended an offer to Vladimir Terrasenko. Seemingly, he became one of the Penguins' top options. He certainly became the fan base's top option to play alongside Crosby. But instead, he signs a two year $4.75 million contract with the Detroit Red Wings Horwatt. How upset were you when you saw Terrasenko was off the board? - I love how I was upset. I definitely wasn't surprised. The Penguins don't have a ton of cap space to work with. He's gonna have a Vladimir Terrasenko would likely have a cup tax to come with him. He already had one in St. Louis and then it's coming off of his second with the Florida Panthers. So I think I knew the number was always gonna be high. I was shocked, I was more shocked to see that they had offered him something to be blunt. I was more surprised at that than I was him signing elsewhere. It's, I mean, plus he's one of those weird players that, yeah, he's a good player and probably still has a ton of skill. Probably still can't play alongside Sydney Crosby. Where's the portion of the fan base that's gonna complain about his age? That's the other situation with someone like him that. Even whenever he was sent to Florida, it always struck me as a, I mean, what does he still have in the tank because of he's been around forever. He is nearing the back nine of his career if he's not already in it. But then he turned out to be a pretty useful piece for Florida in both the few regular season games they had with him and in the playoffs especially. So he proved to still have plenty left in the tank, but who knows going forward? I think there may have been, and I think there still might be, at least in my personal opinion, better options for the Penguins for that position. Would Terasenko have been fun? Absolutely, yeah. I think he's one of those players that brings a ton to the table, brings something that the Penguins have never had and that is a second solid Russian player to maybe, I mean, not that if guinea Vulcan, you know, hasn't felt at home, but to maybe add a new layer to a guinea Vulcan's game. It's been a long time since they've had a, another solid Russian in the line. Genuinely, it may have been Ganchar. Like, that's how long I think it has been. It's the one, that was the one that was in my head. I was like, "Oh, Ganchar, and then..." We discussed the couple that have come and gone, but sorry. Plotnikov was there for the preseason and to which we called for three games last year, but again, none of it is the same as what Ganchar was able to bring. So it would have brought that element, but again, it's not the end of the world that they didn't land. Terasenko, 'cause as we'll discuss, there are other names that I think would be better, more crowd favorite options. More crowd favorite options. Okay, well, let's get into a couple of the options that are remaining free agency-wise. It's Slim Pickens now. If you're looking for somebody to play on the top line, especially, there's plenty of guys that you could give that Anthony Bovillier role to. Hey, Reclamation Project in the bottom six, has some upside, has some scoring, but the Penguins look like they're full up on those options. They can always bring somebody else in. A la what they did last year with Andreas Jonson late in the summer, but you look at the free agents, the two names that have been brought up and they were talked about yesterday on the tip of the iceberg live stream. A reunion with Daniel Sprong seems to be popular among the Penguins fan base and bringing in Jacob Verana, who's become a little bit of a suitcase due to his off-ice issues as well, is available on the free agent market. Those are the two guys that kind of stand out to me of a very weak group, otherwise, in the free agency pool right now. Trade-wise, there's a couple more options. But again, what is Kyle Dubas going to be willing to trade after essentially putting out the declaration that this is a rebuilding franchise now? But these are the options that are still out there that a lot of people are talking about. Patrick Leine of the Columbus Blue Jackets hasn't been a lot of movement or a lot of rumors on him as of late. Nikolai Ehlers of the Winnipeg Jets, which is gonna be the most pricey when it comes to acquisition cost. Nicholas Robertson of the Toronto Maple Leafs is an interesting one, especially with his former ties to Kyle Dubas. And then there's Trevor Zegres out there, another name that is kind of floated to the background, but still prominent this offseason and where this offseason is gonna go once the energy of free agency dies down. So which of those, I believe there's six options there that we rattled off? Which of those six options would work best in your eyes? - Of all those, I'm avoiding the free agents pretty quickly. Jacob Vrana, I just don't know enough and I think the numbers and skills sort of faded over the last few seasons. Obviously there have been some problems, but if you can't produce on the ice, it's not what the Penguins are looking for at the moment. - Daniel Sproung is an interesting one. I just, yeah, he's- - He's coy. - Hey, it's faded because of, you know, so many things, so many years, but also it's, where does he play in the lineup though? Like I know he's put up numbers and did in Seattle, but he scored that many goals that when you're in Seattle on the fourth line. And does that translate back in Pittsburgh on the top line? It's hard to tell, unlikely too. And that's why I immediately turned to the trade market because, I mean, Tristan Jari is still on this roster and might not be for too much longer. And that's a face that can catch you quite a good return, quite a decent return depending on where he goes. I know Tristan Jari popped up in my head for Winnipeg. Last episode, that won't happen. But maybe Columbus for Patrick Lani, I forget who Columbus has in goal right now. Merz-Lincoln's who's on the trade block. - Well, there you go. They have to work out something different then. I think, yeah, the Columbus is always an option. I keep forgetting about Trevor Ziegler's back there. And I know I've said Eelers before, but that's tough to trade Jari for that specifically. But if you could find a different deal for a guy like Eelers and then maybe you pull that trigger. I'm on the train of lining your Eelers mostly. And then I could see Ziegler's peeking out, but that one would be a little tougher. - Yeah, as far as the Nikolai Eelers won, you can make the salary cap work pretty easily because the penguins now have a surplus at center, right? Lars Eller to the Winnipeg Jets will maybe a little bit of retention and you get Eelers down at what, $4 million, retaining 33% of that. That could work. But again, Kyle Dubas is saying it's a rebuild. The one way that I could see him pulling the trigger on a guy like Nikolai Eelers, because I mean, all of these trade options outside of Nick Robertson who's a restricted free agent. The other three trade options all have two years left, which works with the time, right? So the term works with the timeline. The money line A's is gonna be a little bit more difficult 'cause he has that $8.7 million price tag, but also the Columbus Blue Jackets seem to be, he seems to be the one that is most likely on the way out. The other two, you could see those teams potentially just retaining on those players, shoot the Winnipeg Jets, did that last season with everybody that they seemingly had on the trade block. But when I look at Eelers, the one big factor there is, they're also trying to potentially offload Rucker McGroidy, 20 years old, gold medalist for world juniors, stud at Michigan, wants to make the jump to the NHL. The penguins right now, they have those opportunities available, right? And if McGroidy stays this year in the NHL and the Penguins are saying, well, once you're done at Michigan this year, you're guaranteed a spot and you're guaranteed your ELC to close up the season. I don't know what they could say with him, but at 20 years old, I'm willing to trade away some future assets to get Nikolai Eelers for the next couple of years and bring in a guy, the caliber of Rucker McGroidy 'cause we talked about the Jake Gensil trade and bringing in those players that automatically became top 10 prospects in the Penguins pool. You bring in Rucker McGroidy, he is one A1B with Brayden Yeager immediately and he is more likely to be ready sooner than Brayden Yeager. And can you imagine going into the future? I know that you might have to trade a first round pick, but shoot, you can do what the Penguins did and the other way earlier this week with the Riley Smith trade. Trade out one of those picks from a couple years down the line because if you trade away, say a 2027 first round pick, guess what you're able to do? By 2027, probably end up trading away some better players and you can potentially recoup and that gives you plenty of time to recoup one of those first round picks. At that point, Brian Rust won't have a no movement clause and who knows where the Penguins are gonna be by 2025 and 2026. But that's why I think of them, the best option if you can get Rucker McGroidy included is the Nikolai Eelers one. Outside of that, Nicholas Robertson's a little bit of a risk because he hasn't really proven to be a bona fide top line winger, but I do think that he has the potential there and I think it's worth taking a risk on him, especially because the acquisition cost isn't gonna be that high. - Yeah, I like the idea of bringing in Nicholas Robertson, but maybe not as a first line winger, just as an option for the team, as a player who can come in and take a new scenery and prove himself because he's been needing to. There's the obvious familiarity with Kyle Dubas already. I think that's a good option. Again, just as in a different conversation, not in this specific one, not in this specific first line winger role, but just as a player, the Penguins should look to add. I think that one outside of the context of Cinecarosby is a good addition for the Penguins. - Yeah, and that brings to light another avenue here for Kyle Dubas and that is, you know, we've been saying, you'd like to and you would really have to bring in somebody to bump through a con or down, but at the same time, if he's looking at this as in, you know, I don't want to just acquire a top line winger to acquire a top line winger. I don't want to expound, like spend the assets on it. Then it's not like Drew O'Connor didn't hold his own on that first line and maybe you do bring in a Nicholas Robertson and maybe eventually, you know, Nick Robertson does get an opportunity alongside Cinecarosby because we've seen players with lower ceilings succeed with Cinecarosby, Dominic Simone. That's the only reason he had a career as long as he did is because he succeeded with Cinecarosby. I mean, you talked about Pascal Dubois who has a much higher skill level than Dominic Simone, but he was looked at as, you know, part of one of the best first lines in hockey for a couple of seasons in Pascal Dubois. So, you know, I don't hate that option either, but I still feel like even though the Penguins are rebuilding team and sometimes it's going to be hard to think that way, I still think they need to go out there and get somebody of a higher level to go into their top six and that'll have a trickle down effect on the rest of the lineup, but I still feel like one of those other options, specifically, I've fallen in love with the Elers thing. I know it's outside the realm of possibility. It's a long shot at this point, but I fall in love with that Elers-Magority package in whatever it takes to get them, whether that's, you know, trading away, I wouldn't trade away Brayden-Yager, but shy of that, I would trade away probably, you know, Koi Funan, or Ponemarov, if it meant bringing Nickolite Elers in for two years and getting Rucker-Magority as well. - Yeah, that's fair, the issue is is that the Penguins want to build that prospect system. - They do. - And, you know, I was thinking-- - That's like a long shot. - Yeah, I was thinking like maybe you'd say pickering, but also he's the top defensive prospect at the moment and we need to see what everyone else still does. I, which is a little more surprised to hear you say one of the forwards. I could see maybe it cruises. Loose just depending on how he looks at development camp or other forwards that are escaping. They're not going to trade any of the recent draft picks just because they just got them. - Yeah. - Maybe Pien and Niami, because they don't really know what's going on there. Again, they just have to see him still development camp is next week. So, or sorry, this weekend. - Yeah. - So we'll see where things go from there. Maybe we also, the Penguins look at that and go, all of these guys are worth the future. They're going to stick around. There's plenty of options because every day it seems the prospect pool does grow a little bit. - Yeah. And that's why I say, you know, one of the forwards 'cause forward out, forward in. Record McGurray just takes their place and a higher, higher standing in the Penguins prospect system. So it's going to be interesting. Obviously the Penguins are not done this offseason. There's several moves. It's going to be hard to forecast. What moves Kyle do is makes at this point. He also throughout there that he could be looking for something similar to a Kevin Hayes trade. I'm still digging to find somebody that fits the mold of a Kevin Hayes type trade for a top line winger. That is going to be a hard one to seed out across the other 31 NHL teams. But we'll keep our eyes open. And if we see somebody that could potentially fit that mold, we'll let you guys know on this platform. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Let's move over and talk a little bit about the Penguins defense because we've talked a lot about the forwards, the defense on the other hand, seems like they might be dumb. While they still have some work to do in other areas of the organization, the defense looks pretty set, right? If you look at it on paper right now, Pederson Carlson is your top pair. Grizzlyk Latang is probably your second pair. Ryan Graves, Jack St. Ivani is probably your third pair. And then you have three extras at the NHL level right now and John Ludwig, who's bouncing back from an injury, Sebastian Ajo, who was acquired two days ago. And Ryan Shea, who was brought back surprisingly a couple of days ago as well. Horwatt, your thoughts on this, we'll call it a new defense, even though there's only two new names. - It feels like a new defense, though, because of the work they did beyond the NHL level. There's some names that could, you know, five or spots in Mack Hollowell, if he really stepped things up. Owen Pickering, maybe, again, a prospect camp goes well pre-season. Again, maybe that's more of a minor league option, but a name to keep it on. Phillip Kroll was signed a little bit ago. Got to remember him, he's still around. There are names that are going to be fighting for spots and looking for NHL time. And yeah, it's mostly the same defense and may end up being the exact same, going into, maybe not the exact same, may end up being fairly similar, going into puck drop. But it feels like there's a lot of new blood there. I mean, P.O. Joseph is gone. That's it. But with the names that have come in, it feels like there's going to be a bit more of nuance, a bit more, let's see what's going on. Let's see what happens. And I like the Sebastian Ajo pickup, a bunch, two years, by the way. So even if things don't work out this season, even let's say things don't work out of Mackers, like he's only here for a year. Sebastian Ajo got two. So there's some faith in what he can do. It feels a little like a reclamation, but also like a genuine option for the lineup. - I have three initial thoughts whenever I write this down. I have three things that flood my mind whenever I look at this lineup on paper on the defensive side of things. One, you mentioned it's going to be very similar to last year. I think there is going to be one glaring similarity and it is going to be that they are not good in the net front once again. I mean, you brought in a five foot nine defender and that was essentially it. I mean, Sebastian Ajo, maybe, but he's not known as being a big net front guy. So you're still going to have that same issue as last season two. I automatically am expecting a better year from Eric Carlson and Chris Latang. So that's going to elevate the level of this defense no matter what. I think Chris Latang, if he can stay healthy, you can see what you saw early last season, which him played some of the best 200 foot hockey that he has played, or at the very least, in his own zone, the best that he has played. And then Eric Carlson, I think there's just, you bring in David Quinn your second year in the system. You have a little bit more chemistry with a guy like Marcus Pederson, I think bringing in Grizzlyk gives them the penguins, I should say, the option of keeping Pederson with Carlson and bouncing Grizzlyk and Graves, whoever's doing better with Chris Latang. So I think that gives Carlson more of leeway to keep Pederson on his wing. So I think that'll create a much higher level of play from Eric Carlson next year. And the last one is Graves. I think when he starts the season with Jackson Ivey, lesser role on the third pairing and playing with Jackson Ivey, I think is a very good fit for his talent and what he does best, which is lug the puck, right? That is what he does really good is lug the puck and try to get shots towards the net. Whether they get through or not, we know he's captain Shinpad, that's a different story. But I think that is setting him up for success in year two. And I also think the floor is so low. At this point going into the season that you're going to be surprised at how much better he is this year. Now again, I might have rose-colored glasses on Ryan Graves. I was one of the people, pounding on the table for them to sign Ryan Graves and it backfired one of the things I was most wrong about in my entire life. I do think that he's going to have a much better season in year two. And I think a lot of the reason is because he's in a much better position to succeed on that third pairing with the same Ivey. - Yeah, he's got more room to grow. He's got time to settle in. Now he's had his time to settle in. See where it goes? I mean, I know you're saying they're not a playoff team. I'm looking at the whole team as with Rose-colored glasses. So I'm kind of on your side with this of there should be upsides. There should be up swings and improvements going into next season because they're professionals. They know that they're not stupid. They know what they did last season. They know they need to improve. And certain ones will be able to and you have to, Ryan Graves is one of them. - Yeah, and obviously you have guys like Marcus Patterson who's going into a contract year. If he doesn't have a contract before the year starts, he has a lot to prove to try to make that money next year. But you got a lot of guys that have a chip on their shoulder especially on that left side. Patterson playing for a contract. Grizzlyk looking for some reclamation. Ryan Graves looking for some reclamation. Even go down to John Ludwig who was given opportunities last year, but he just couldn't stay healthy and stay in the lineup. He's going to be hungry to be able to prove something this year and his second year at the NHL level with the Penguins. So that brings me to my last point here. And the last question I want to ask you is, do you think with these nine names that we have in front of us right now, do you think it'll be a better unit that it was last season? - Overall, I think so. I think it'll be a wiser unit. Let's also not take out like, yeah, you have those nine names. You got a new coach too. Got a new defensive coach. So there is more to this group being better than just the names on paper. There is the coaching behind them. There is the mindset that they might have going into this season of we have a new coach. There's a reason for it. Every time a coach gets fired or coach gets let go, at least one player will say a part of it is on us. Okay, well now the defensive core for the Penguins might be thinking that we lost Todd Reardon. I wonder why, mostly the power play. But also, he was our coach. Is there something we did wrong? Is there something we need to work on? For most of them, absolutely. - Yeah. - He's gonna maybe wake up Air Carlson a little bit. He's gonna wake up Crystal Tang a little bit and continue coaching Jack, saying I have any into his full potential and whoever comes out of the battles for those final spots whenever I say like, I think Sebastian Ajo might put up a good fight. You know, John Ludwig's gonna be hungry. You know, the long shots like Phillip Kroll and Mack Hollowell are gonna be hungry as well. Who knows what they can bring. It's gonna be a lot of pushing and Mike Sullivan loves a good competition, especially on the blue line. So I'd say overall, even if the names are the same, there's gonna be a lot of improvement and it should be a much better defensive core going into the next season. - I think where the ceiling is at is higher than where they finished last season, no doubt. - Yes. - The thing that I have is there are a lot of gambles on this blue line, right? Matt Grislick is a huge one. Now again, as far as the business of hockey and the salary cap of hockey, he's not that huge, 2.75 million for one year. You can scrap it after the year. Fine. Ryan Graves, can he bounce back? I'm expecting him to, but can he? That is still a question. It remains to be seen. And Jackson Ivani is still a little bit of a gamble. I like him, you like him. Everybody seemingly liked Jackson Ivani and he was thrown into the fire late last season. He worked out, he played well, but can he do that for a full season at the NHL level? Can he withstand the rigors of a massive NHL schedule, which we didn't even talk about the schedule, includes a seven game road trip? What is that? - A west coast road trip. - What is, including the west coast road trip? That is crazy, but again, all goes to the fact that you're trying to get younger and part of that is Jackson Ivani's gonna have to put up with a lot of things that he's never seen before. Certainly not at that level. So there are a lot of questions here. I think that there's potential for it to be better, but again, I'm cautiously optimistic because there are a lot of gambles going on here by Kyle Dubas and the Pittsburgh Penguins. - Yeah, there are. And considering the place they're in, they might be worth the gambles. They might be worth those attempts. - That also makes for a fun season. And also, if things fall apart in the Penguins, if the defense is starting to fall turn, the Penguins are still in a pretty decent position, they'll have plenty of options to go to, to turn to. It's not like this is, these are the names, that's it. There's no one else to turn to. We're looking at Taylor Fudu next, no, you're not. You're gonna look at some pretty solid options behind them. And if those options don't fail, all right, we're turning to the prospects, everybody, get ready. The future is now. So I'd say, even if certain things are going bad, there will be just troves of possible and it's already talent, right in the rear view. - Yeah, it's gonna be a season where I think it's gonna be more inclined to happen on the offensive side of things. 'Cause I think there's more, one, more options. We talked about Potomara, if we talked about Pulen, we can talk about Koi Vounen. There's more options to come up and potentially steal spots. But if you look at that defensive side, Phillip Carl is gonna be an interesting name to monitor this year. I know he's the guy that you've been trying to shoehorn into every episode since they acquired him. I mean, I mean, courage to see you continue that trend once the season begins. I hope you can tune you that trend. And the last thing I'll say is, when it comes to whether or not the Penguins will be better in the next year or next year than they were last year, does Ryan Graves realize that he's 6'5", 220? Like, can he do that? That's gonna be a big part of it. Like, I wanna see Ryan Graves realize that he is a very large human and can use that to his advantage. He didn't do it last year. I'd like to see him do it a little bit more. I'm not asking the guy to change his entire game 'cause he's never gonna become, you know, Brooks Orpik with better skating. Like, he's not gonna be that guy, but can we at the very least recognize the fact that you are a human Shrek, essentially, with better hair. So, it's gonna be an interesting season for the defense. It might be a very, very frustrating one, or, listen, all could work out, and I think the potential is there for that to be a very good defense core because Ryan Graves at his best is the top four guy. Matt Grizzick at his best is a top four guy. Marcus Patterson at his best is a top pairing guy, and that's your entire left side. Then you have two guys on the right that are future Hall of Famers and a young guy that everybody's very high on. So, there is potential for this to be very good. We'll just have to wait and see if they can live up to that potential on the 2024/25 season. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Let's close things out with a very fun little discussion here. Pio Joseph signs with the St. Louis Blues for, I believe, it was one year, 950K. Obviously, the move in the back end of that is the penguins bringing in Sebastian Ajo, two years, 775K. But with Pio Joseph's departure is the end of the Phil Kessel branch of one of the longest tenured trade trees in NHL history, running from 2001 until 2024 and potential to go beyond 2024. It is now down to, as we'll pull up the trade tree here for everybody watching on YouTube at tip of the iceberg, it is now down to Eric Carlson, a 2026 third round pick, and minor leaguer Dylan Himalyuk, who is right now unsigned. So, he could be gone in the matter of a couple of months and it could be down to a 2026 third round pick and just Eric Carlson. We'll bring up the trade tree here and it all dates back to 2001 when Jeff Norton, of all people, was traded for Bobby Dulles. That branch didn't last long. And Johan Hedberg, that then went to Alex Gologoski in a Vancouver second round pick. That went to, then of course, Matt Niskinen and James Neal, which went to Patrick Hornquist and Nick Spalling, which then created the bulk majority of this tree because Nick Spalling, of course, included in the Phil Kessel trade. Hornquist traded for Mike Mathison and Colton Seavier. Kessel then traded for Galchenyuk and Joseph. Galchenyuk turns into Jason Zuker, which clips off at that point. Mathison turns into Ryan Paling and Jeff Petrie in a trade that all of us are still having nightmares about. But then, Jeff Petrie kept this thing alive when he was part of the Eric Carlson trade last August for Dylan Himalyuk, who is still technically under control by the Pittsburgh Penguins. Eric Carlson, a 2026 San Jose third round pick, and Rem Pitlick was part of that as well, but Pitlick was traded for a conditional seventh and the conditions were not met. So his branch is cut off as well. Crazy trade tree, starting back in 2001, including, I would say at least two Hall of Famers, right? Phil Kessel potentially, Eric Carlson is there potentially. And a couple of very important pieces for a couple Stanley Cup runs from the Pittsburgh Penguins. - Yeah, it's no doubt looking at some of the names on here. I mean, it's some of the biggest names in recent memory too for Penguins fans. And when you mentioned, yeah, like there's Hall of Famers, like Phil Kessel and Eric Carlson, but Jason Zuker ended up being a really fun player for a couple of years. Patrick Horrquist ended up becoming a huge piece of Stanley Cup runs like you mentioned. If you really get into it, James Neal was fun to have around for a couple of seasons, even Matt Niskin and whenever he popped off for his in his last season here, a ton of fun. And the run that Johan Hedberg went on in his rookie season was one of those memorable ones. It's just looking at some of the names on here. They're big names, they're popular names. They are hockey names too. I mean, like, yeah, maybe Alex Galchenyuk didn't work in Pittsburgh. And a lot of the recent stuff hasn't been great. That's a former top, I forget what picky was, but a former early, early, early first round pick that found his way into this. Jeff Petrie is an NHL veteran of many games. And Fort Worth P.O. Joseph at one point was the Penguin's top defensive prospect. So yeah, there's no small names on this list. Nick Spallings kind of got a history in hockey. When you get into the minute details of things, whenever you start really seeing the little names that are here, but for the most part, these are mostly some pretty big prominent names, not only for the Penguins, but just in hockey in general. - I mean, the one name he didn't mention there, Alex Gologoski was a great NHLer for a very long time, right? - He was, yeah, so there's another one. - There's a lot of names on here. It's a very interesting trade tree that I'm happy continues. I thought it came to an end. I completely forgot about Mathison turning it into Petrie, turning into Carlson. But here we stand with Carlson and a third round pick. I'm not sure that Penguins are gonna retain Hamali at this offseason. The question that I have here before we wrap this one up and also before this gets completely outdated and somebody gets traded, what is the craziest part of this trade tree in your eyes? - Oh, it's tough, it's tough. As I kind of look at it, I'd say the craziest part might be, I mean, not all the details are into it, but just the Air Carlson trade itself. Yes, Jeff Petrie's involved, but I mean, Casey to Smith was involved in it too, and he's not gonna be in this, but it was a huge trade that brought so much to the Penguins this past season, or sorry, that had so much leave the Penguins this past season because it was Kyle Dubas coming in, 'cause there's the whole story behind it. Kyle Dubas coming in, he's got a mess on his hands and has wanted Air Carlson and Toronto. And now he's got a team that has the assets to make it happen and it's a team that Carlson wants to go to. And what does he do? He somehow ships out all of the bad contracts, most of the bad contracts for a player that going into his second year should be way better. Other than that, the Phil Kess one's obvious. And yeah, I'd say it sticks on to the Air Carlson deal itself. - Yeah, it's not officially a part of this trade tree because the branch was clipped, but you know who was involved in that Phil Kessle trade initially was Disparry Captain that the Penguins brought him back and had him back on the roster as well. So it's a weird little addition to this as well. I think the funniest and most interesting part of this trade tree is the guy it all starts with. If I said Jeff Norton to most hockey fans, you'd mentioned a lot of these names or names that just average hockey fans are gonna know or average Penguins fans are gonna know. Nobody knows really Jeff Norton unless you're one of the older generation and a big fan of hockey or you've studied the plaque outside of PPG paints arena because he is one of the two New York Islanders defenders on the Mario Lemue statue outside PPG paints arena. The fact that that guy is heading up this extensive and crazy trade tree is what I think is the most interesting part of this and the craziest part of this as well. It was obviously Jeff Norton and Rich Pylon, Pylon, whatever you wanna say, but Mario Lemue splitting down between those two. And then now we look at Norton as part of this part of Penguins history as well. - I forgot about that part, the statue. Maybe you do know Jeff Norton because he was a journeyman in the NHL between the late 80s into very early 2000s, 15 years in the NHL, 799 career games, so close to 800. Am I getting the points right? I am 384 total points in his career. It's a playmaker, 52 total goals. That helps whenever you play defense and I'm not checking that part out. And 15 years in the NHL, over one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight teams, three games in Boston, only 32 in Pittsburgh and yet here he is starting this for the Penguins. Just an insane start for it. He doesn't have a picture of hockey reference, so. How much more do you need? - Yeah, I mean, essentially the Penguins traded Jeff Norton for Eric Carlson. - Over the years and a couple of cups in the way. - Yeah. - Over, yeah, over 20 years later, but still, hey, it's what you do. It's that old, you know, if I have a paperclip and can get to a house by just exchanging one thing for one thing. And that's essentially what the Penguins did. And they won a couple of Stanley Cups on the way with some of these players being key contributors. You mentioned, you know, Patrick Horanfist, obviously, Phil Kessel, obviously, and they're hoping, you know, Eric Carlson, even though they've just entered a rebuild. But I thought it was fun to look back on that because one of the big branches was cut off. Obviously, we thought the Phil Kessel branch would have led to another 20 years. But instead, the return for Phil Kessel was Alex Galchenyak. That didn't work quickly and he was gone. And P.O. Joseph, who now walks for absolutely nothing in free agency to the St. Louis Blues. Obviously, it might be a while before we revisit this trade tree, hopefully. I mean, Eric Carlson has, I believe, three years remaining on his current deal. And obviously, the Penguins need to do something with that 2026 third round pick, whether that has make the selection and see where that player's career goes. Or if they use it as part of a trade, who comes back in return? So it'll be a nice little sidebar to keep an eye on, a nice little fun entertaining off-season piece to keep an eye on. But I thought it was interesting and we should bring it back up 'cause we had a couple of conversations over text throughout the week whenever P.O. Joseph's potential to leave started to spring up on Sunday. But that is gonna do it for this episode of the tip of the iceberg. Thank you guys so much for tuning into this one. Remember, you can find us on YouTube at tip of the iceberg or anywhere. You get your podcast from me. We'll see you guys next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
