As a nonprofit, it's hard to make a difference in the community when your finances are holding you back. With Maxis by Freed Maxic, you can navigate complex challenges with the right people, processes, and technology. Learn more about Maxis and schedule a complimentary consultation at Maxisbyfm.com/nonprofit. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast. I'm your host Megan Speer, and I'm joined today by Nicole Smitty, who is a leadership coach and speaker. If you have been around Coscan, you've been listening to the podcast a lot this season. You might know Nicole's husband, Ben. He is a fan favorite here at Nonprofit Hub, so I'm excited to sit down with Maxisbyf better half his other half. I don't want to take sides, but either way, we're very excited to have Nicole join me on the podcast today. Welcome in. Oh, thank you so much. I'm a fan of my husband too, so that's great. A fan favorite around here. That's right. Okay, so Nicole, introduce yourself a little bit to the audience. I know you have a long history of working with leaders who are in nonprofits. So tell us a little bit about your background in this space. Yeah, so I have been leading in local church ministry, non-profit, and then in business space, really all of those over the last 21 years. And it started actually in serving in my local church back in Los Angeles and over the years that kind of evolved in terms of what my responsibilities were and partnerships both in the city and globally to support nonprofits. And then I think eight years ago now, I moved to New York and I oversaw a foundation that was focused on supporting really great nonprofits that were doing the work on the ground in a lot of different spaces globally. As well as locally and some church funding initiative. So that kind of got me more hands on in the nonprofit space for a season and got to learn some of the nuances of living and leading in that space. And then about five years ago, I launched my first company and then over the last couple of years have been doing some coaching as well and then transitioned into full time leadership coaching and have been speaking in different spaces, including the nonprofit space. For a decade and a half. So I have such a deep love for nonprofit leaders and such a deep respect for the work that is done and know that it is such rewarding work, but it's also challenging. Let's be honest. And so I really love being able to support leaders, specifically female leaders is a lot of the work that I do who are leading in the nonprofit space and and just be able to support their health. And their strength as leaders. And to help them really create healthy rhythms for their life so that they can succeed in the spaces that they feel called to succeed in and hit those wins along the way but also not be expensive their well being to be able to do it from a place of strength, which is really where lead with love my coaching program was worked out of and certainly some of my own history with that paid points along the way. Well, that's an excellent segue because as I was mentioning to you, I saw an Instagram post from you recently that was a kind of a carousel of photos but the first one that text on it said to all the women who are struggling to juggle it all. And so before we go any further gentlemen, you are absolutely welcome to keep listening. Yes, we know there's a lot in here for you to for sure. There's a lot in here for you to a lot of these pieces that you could take on, but we know that a lot of nonprofits are led by females. It is a very active space in that regard so want to make sure that we're obviously taking care of everybody so gentlemen we're not trying to alienate you today. No, definitely keep listening but ladies. So, Nicole, let's start there because I think every woman who's listening to this can understand the overwhelm of trying to lead a team and lead with their family and do live up to all of the responsibilities and try to do all of the things with perfection. And it is just so much I'm assuming you've seen America for years monologue from the Barbra site of like it's just so hard. Yes, which I think resonated with so many women struck a chord for a reason I think it vocalized what a lot of us feel from time to time and certainly unspoken so yeah, I was there going whoa is she reading our mail like collectively right now. She read everyone's journal lately. So in your coaching practice let's say you are working with a female leader in a nonprofit specifically. What are the some of the things that you look for to be able to understand where like how do we identify yep you're at a place where we got to figure out a new plan. That's a really great question. Where do we start yeah and I like the visual of almost like a map and some I think sometimes women are clear about where they want to go but are more unclear about where they are, which seems counterintuitive a lot of times. Oh, I'm not sure I feel like I need some more direction so I think that most women who are leading have some sense of what a win would look like for them long term when it's like in their career or when it comes to the impact that they want to make the legacy that they want to leave and so for nonprofit leaders I absolutely is intertwined with their career right the impact that they want to leave. I think they're clear on that. I think sometimes it's really hard to identify weight but where am I today and not just where am I in terms of my responsibilities at work but where am I in terms of my entire well being like as a person. How am I actually doing am I in touch with that. So I like the visual of a map when you walk into a mall for those of us who still do that I'm not sure a lot of us go just exclusively gone online. But if you were to look and you want to find out where to get to a certain store you have to start by identifying you find yourself on the little map there the star that says I'm here and then that can help you create a path to where you want to be. And so I think it's really important for women who feel that pressure like I'm juggling at all. It's first to just start with a sense of hey, have you checked in with yourself have you really taken a step back because there's so many demands and so many things happening. It can really easily feel like we're living from paycheck to paycheck and I'm not just saying that with our money but I mean with our time with our energy with our emotions. I just got to get the next thing done on my calendar and there's not really a lot of time to get out of the micro to take a step back and go but how am I doing. Like where's my level of joy am I rested or am I depleted am I feeling some of the signs of fatigue or exhaustion or even burnout do I have any margin in my schedule. What is life giving to me right now do I feel like I'm stagnant in my growth or are there ways in which I can clearly identify here's how I'm growing both professionally and personally what are my relationships look like. What about my physical health like how am I taking care of me. Do the people in my life that matter the most to me am I investing my best time with them or the leftovers if there are any right. And these are just things to really stop and think about and only you can really assess that other people can go hey. There's like you listen a little tired whatever which nobody likes being told you need to be able to take a step back and assess and go okay here's here's actually where I'm feeling and I know that can be really hard. It is really hard for me for a lot of years to even be able to do that because I was naturally I am naturally that like a cheaper personality very like high task oriented very visionary so let's get it done I thrive on doing things I thrive on producing. So I fill my calendar with what I need to do and I don't actually look at my calendar very often through the lens of but who am I becoming like where is there just space for me to be not just do but be. And it took a lot of pain points and honestly burn out for me in a couple seasons of my life to realize I'm more than just what I do. And I do know that I'm called to make an impact and I want to make an impact but I want to do it in a way that is not the expense of my well being of my physical health or my relationships or my emotional or mental well being. I don't think that those things need to be in competition with each other like success however you defined it in nonprofit space your job doesn't have to be at the cost of your own health or your relationships or your family the things that matter most to you. So I think being able to start with how am I actually doing and be really honest and give yourself that assessment and not just how you do it in your work or your job but how are you doing as a person is going to help you then go okay. Now I know where I'm having a deficit or some rhythms or things that need to change or be adjusted so that I can continue to become the person I want to become not just achieve the things that I want to achieve. Well, and I would venture a guess that there are a lot of people listening at this point who heard that list of like how is my physical well being how am I taking care of these relationships and they're all sitting in their cars or in their offices going no, no, no, I'm not doing those things. Yes, I am feeling burnt out yes to all of the negative. And so when we find ourselves in that place. At least for me when I hit that season of burnout before it feels so overwhelming to try and change anything that training water feels like the easier option even though I know that in the long run it's not. Yeah, when you run across when you're working with leaders and you run across somebody who's in that boat, who isn't the burnout zone or the overwhelmed zone. What's your first piece of advice to them. Yeah. Well, I think it's all you articulated it really well with treading on water in that picture like sometimes that just feels like easier than to actually make bigger changes in your life right. The idea means that I have to at least in my brain in that moment feels like I have to take on more when I still really have more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How does change even happen. Yeah. Well, I think we have to address the myth of being able to do it all. And I don't think anybody can do it all all at once all at the same time unless you're a superhero and or you have a really well built out team around you. But I think that those things even then there's just you're not going to you're not going to get an A grade on every area of your life all the time. And I think we've been sold a lie. I have a love hate relationship with social media. I think like most people do. So there's things I really enjoy about it. And there's things that are like, oh, and I have to really even be mindful and really self aware when I'm scrolling because I think all of us can look to people that we admire or people who are in a similar way. Or people who are in a similar space, but maybe further along or similar season of life, but it just on Instagram or TikTok, whatever you prefer. It seems like their life is just way more together or it gives the sense of they figured it out. There's something that they've solved where they're just really winning in every area. Yeah. And I think we need to just dispel that myth like I don't think anybody is all the time at everything because every yes means a no to something else. And I would really want to encourage us to start from like our beliefs because our beliefs actually shape our choices. So do you actually believe that you should be doing it all and doing it all perfectly? Because if you really do, you're never going to win and you're never going to feel great. You're always going to feel disappointed, always going to feel frustrated, always going to compare yourself to somebody else. But if you can redefine success for yourself and know what's most important for you in this season, what are those things? And that list shouldn't be 30 things. That list should just be like, I can write this on one page if you're really confident that if I focused on these things, I would be doing what I feel like I have been created and assigned to do in this season. And there could be challenges, there could be frustrations, there could be things, but if I'm focused on these areas of my life or these things or moving these things forward, then I know that this was time well spent. Like I'm living the life that I want to live that I feel like I was created to live. So I think we have to start with some beliefs and redefining success and instead of having it all doing it all or the sense of perfection that we instead get really clear on our unique purpose. What we're called to do from season to season, not compare ourselves to somebody else. And then let our goals and our focus be defined by that and not just the pressure that I think is put on us or the, like I said, the things that we're exposed to just by being able to see what other people are doing. That's great, but it should inspire us not make us feel like we're not measuring up. And I think that's a hard thing sometimes. And then I think once you're able to do that, like I said, every yes, there's a no. I think once you're clear on your priorities, then it's almost like, hey, then what's important. So what's one thing that you can do to continue to see health in this area or momentum in this area that maybe you're not doing now. And what's one thing you're going to need to stop doing so that you can make room for that. So I think we think of getting healthy in terms of having things on to our life. Like, now I have another part time job called getting healthy while I maintain my other life. So what I'm just inviting people to do is go, hey, hit pause for just a second mentally. Be the big picture of what your season is supposed to be really about. And maybe start to say no to some things so that you can start to say the things that matter the most, which is really hard. Because sometimes it's addressing, man, I might let somebody down here. If I say no, I might have to say I'm not going to be on this board anymore. Or it might mean having to cut back on certain relationships to make room for healthier ones. It might mean having to say no to how I can be very guilty of this and I'm not saying it's always a bad thing. But where my default can be like, I just need to veg out to a show on Netflix or watch another episode of Friends and that's it. But is that really refreshing my soul? So hold on, I'm going to be regroup a little bit so I can do something else for me. So I think that we, but we need to start with a sense of purpose. And I think once we are clear on what our season is really supposed to be about and what we're focusing on, then we can figure out our yeses and our noes. But they're going to be both of them, not just more yeses. There's going to be some noes that might feel a little bit hard at first, but are going to be well worth it in the end. [music] Maxis by Freed Maxic is an innovative financial advisory solution for nonprofits. Backed by over 60 full-time professionals dedicated to serving nonprofits, Maxis helps you address short-term talent needs and achieve long-term financial stability by letting you outsource and automate accounting tasks so that your team can focus more attention on mission-driven growth. Learn more about Maxis and schedule a complimentary consultation at MaxisbyFM.com/nonprofit. [music] I love the word "season" that you keep using. Because I think at least what I have seen in a lot of leaders is this tendency to think that I've committed to this thing, in it, and I just have to do it for eternity. This is going to be it, but life is not that way. No. There are seasons. I think maybe a big takeaway for me or as a reminder from what you just said, just because I'm saying no to something right now does not mean that a year from now I'm not going to have the bandwidth to do it. I'm not getting no to something forever. I'm saying no for right now because this is my priority in this season. I think that's maybe a helpful takeaway is just because we're focused on something right now. That season has to be for the rest of your life. That doesn't have to be even for the rest of the year. Those seasons can change. I think part of, especially for non-profit leaders, is we live and die by this, whether it's the school year calendar or we're gearing up on the year end and then fiscal year end or there's so many seasons of life that are just dictated by the normal non-profit cycle that it can feel hard to get out of that rhythm sometimes. Man, I can very much resonate with folks who get stuck in that. But talk to me a little bit about how we can decide what those priorities are. In and of itself is a pretty big mental exercise. Oh, yeah. And try and figure out, is there a process that you work with folks to help define what those would look like in this season and help them figure out with some clarity what they should be focusing on? Yeah, it's a big question. You're right. I don't want to oversimplify it. Just sit down and journal for 15 minutes and you got it all figured out. You're good. And some people might already really have a sense of that. Maybe they need to just revisit it because sometimes we get like vision fog a little bit and life happens and there's a lot of distraction. So you're like, oh, it's almost just this conversation and even hearing this is helping you return to, hey, here's some of the big, the, the why for me in this season. Here are the things that are really key and important to me. And that's just a helpful exercise because you can go where have I veered off a little bit in terms of my schedule and it feels like other priorities than what I actually said were what matters most to me. But for other people, you might be like, I'm just not really in touch with that. Or if I'm honest, I'm really driven more by the calendar or I'm really driven more by the current schedule. That's like I'm in maintenance mode. You know what I mean? And we want to be able to just take a step back and go, hey, I don't want to just work hard with my life. I want to work smart. Are these areas where I'm putting my time, really, the things that I feel are most important to me in this season? Like we said in again, season, because it's not forever, but it's for now. It's your focus now. I do invite people to take some time to really answer just a few basic questions, but not hurry the answer, but just to sit in them, think about them. And for those who like I'm a person of faith, like I pray these things, you know, and really invite God in my faith to shape these answers from season to season for me. But I think one question I tend to ask people is, okay, what are a couple areas that you would like to grow in over the next six months? Like two to three tops, not 10, just two to three areas. And I mean that with any area of your life, I'm not just talking about what are work skills and maybe that's where you go right now because they feel like the most pressing, but it could be things outside of that. And then the second question is like, who would you like to become more of, which I think is an interesting one because we don't get asked that question a lot. I think we get asked like, what do you want to achieve when we talk about goals and focus, but I think it's a really important question. Like, who do you want to become more of? Do you want to become more peaceful? Do you want to become more present? Do you want to become more confident as a leader? Do you want to become more kind of calm under pressure? Do you want to become less anxious or time? What are those things? Do you want to become more fun? Because maybe right now life doesn't feel that fun. And that's okay, but think through that question of becoming. I have a daughter and she just turned two, so she's still pretty young. She's not going to remember the memories right now. But I think about often, who do I want her to see in me? Not just my job, but like when she's around me and she reflects on her childhood, like what kind of childhood did she have around her mom? Was her mom always stressed or was her mom present or those kind of things, so it helps shape that become question for me. And then the third question is, okay, so then what are two or three then goals that she have in the season? Those are things you can measure. We know this like metrics. And again, they could be work related. They could be outside of work related. It could be about the nonprofit that you're running and moving it forward, but it could be about your marriage. It could be about your health. It could be, but just what are some things? And then based on that, then okay, great, like then create a little bit of a plan around those things. But I don't start with what are you two or three goals in the season. I think there's a question of how am I growing as a person or as a leader and who am I becoming? And then, yeah, there's room to be thinking about goals as well. But I think that exercise over time, or again, maybe something you could do more quickly because you might be in touch a little bit more with your wife for the season. But if not, it sticks in time to really answer those questions, I think is a really helpful exercise. And it can help get us back on track or it can help us prioritize our yeses and our nose and create healthy habits and rhythms for success towards those things. And it can help us really determine what are the things that we need to say goodbye to or cut back on so that we can focus more on what's most important. I love that. I feel like I'm having my own therapy session today. This is great. So for the folks who are leading, I think there's one, there's obviously huge benefits to asking these questions for ourselves. Yeah. But leading implies that there are people who work for you or around you. What can we do as leaders to build a culture that has this kind of balance to it or this kind of approach to it. Instead of perpetuating the like, you've got to be perfect. You got to go. You got to do. We got to do more. I need more from you, all of those kind of stereotypes, right? Because we understand that nonprofits are generally under-resourced, undersaffed. It's very easy to get into the like frenzied culture. Yeah. So what are some steps that we can take as leaders to avoid that within our own organizations? Yeah, that's a really great question. I love that you're asking that. I think that even just asking that question is good leadership, right? It's thinking, how can I create space for other people to thrive, not just us hit our metric goals, but how can the culture of our team be one that is really healthy and that people want to be a part of, even if it's high demand and all those things. I think people can really enjoy and love the work that they're doing. And I think that there can be longevity, which sometimes is a really hard thing when you feel under-resourced and understaffed and you're trying to get some big things done. I think big part of this is just the same way that I invited and asked those questions, just to create that within the rhythm of your organization, one-on-one with the people that either are high-capacity volunteers who are leading different parts of the nonprofit or who are key staff. Just create a culture where everybody's getting asked that question and there's space just to listen to those three questions. Like I just said, six months. What would it look like to every six months, they sit down and say, "Hey, you know what? This is about just you and wanting to support you. And I want to know the areas that you want to grow in. I don't want to just tell you the areas you need to grow in. I want to hear from you. What do you think? I want to hear from you who you want to become. I don't want to just give you feedback on the kind of vibe you're giving off on the organization or the kind of climate I want to hear from you. I want to hear from you what some of your goals are." And I think that kind of dialogue as leaders where we create space to ask these kind of questions and then just listen, I know that sounds so simple, but it's really powerful. You will discover so many things about the people that you're working with that you thought, "Man, I've worked with them for so long and I didn't know that this was a desire of theirs. I didn't even know this was a dream of theirs. I didn't know that this was happening in their private life or in their personal time or I didn't know that they were going through this." And those things are so informative. They can help you as a leader, not just create space for a person to see seen and believed in, but then you can actively do things to support them within the organization. It's one thing for somebody to feel like, "Wow, somebody really cared about me today and listened to me," another thing to be part of an organization that's, "Oh, wow." And now they are resourcing me in this area of my growth or there's a workshop and that person, that leader said, "Hey, I'm inviting you to it because I know that this is something that you want to grow in," or even being able to now have a more customized conversation about what their longevity in this organization could look like based on what they're desiring in the future, the ways that they want to grow. It changes the way that you do coach them and give feedback in the future because you're asking these types of questions. So I think having a culture where you have space to ask these questions and to listen on a regular basis is really powerful and then following through where you can. Your job as a leader is not, and I think we've all had the experience where we believe so much in somebody and they're not taking the initiative. It's just not the right time for one reason or another and that can be incredibly disappointing and frustrating. So we can't do the growth work for anybody else, right? That's their own. We've all got to own our own, but we can create opportunities for people and we can invite them to those opportunities. And what they do with those opportunities reveals a lot to us about their not only longevity, but their growth within the organization. And I just think for as long as somebody's with us, if it's six months or six years or 20 years, whatever, that they could walk away and go, "I really grew as a person." And I felt really seen and the work I did had meaning. Wow, that checks all the boxes. That's amazing. And I know that sounds so simple, but that's easier said than done. And we have such an interesting kind of climate that we are in today. People just won't stay long in a place if they're not feeling those boxes being checked. It's not the same world that it was even 20 years ago. I remember growing up thinking I would have one career my whole life, right? Most people did. And now it's probably enough three or four. That's just really how people think now. And so we just got, I think we have an opportunity in all of that to stand out, not by how much money we can offer somebody when we can. That's great, but sometimes we have those constraints, but what we can offer is an environment where people feel seen, they feel believed in, and they feel like they have opportunities to grow as a person. And grow as a leader within an organization. That's great. We actually just had a woman named Kate Viana on the podcast a couple weeks ago who was talking about different generations in the workplace. And she was talking about some of those loyalty and longevity issues, but I think we're, as the younger millennials and Gen Z especially come in through the workplace at this point, that is going to be invaluable. In keeping them is having that opportunity to build the relationships and build into them so that they can see the impact their work is having, which the nonprofit sector is primed to do. Absolutely. And embrace some of these, if we can embrace some of these leadership tendencies to really engage them on that level because it is such good work. And it's a simple work as long as we're not burning them out in the process. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very true. We don't want to burn anybody out. I do think that people are willing to give more when they know that it aligns with their values and then aligns with their hopes and dreams for their own growth or their own leadership as well. So I think that there's an opportunity in all of it. And I think when people are led by purpose, instead of just by a mission statement that hangs up somewhere in some room, but it feels personalized and they own it, you're just going to get a different kind of return from that person. And I think there's ways that we can do that intentionally and continue to be led by vision, not just in our words, but interactions, you know, in our interactions with the people that we lead. Yeah. So, as we're coming up to the end of a close here, but before we deal two questions for you, first one being, if a gentleman has made it this far in the podcast. Well done. Well done. I think a lot of this has really applied to men as well. I really do. I would agree. I'm happy with how everybody's feeling included. I hope. Hopefully everybody's on board. So I hope they stand around. Because I think so much of this is like the touchy feely. We have to sit down and think about ourselves and not just those KPI metrics that our boss is holding us accountable to, but our actual person. When you have somebody, let's say, who's maybe a gentleman who's leading a team of women. Right. Or you, maybe you're the female leader, but you have guys on your team. How do we encourage that across the board? Yeah. Because that those identity pieces, the goal driven, the type A hit the metrics driven to succeed kind of pieces. Can be pretty prevalent for the guys and kind of take over on the identity side. So when we're talking about mixed gender teams or leaders who are leading women who want to have these conversations, what would your advice be to some of those guys in the room as well? Yeah. Well, I think that this is really applicable for some of these questions that you can ask in your team the way that you can lead. I think it really is universal. My encouragement would be to see people on your team as individuals and really try to get to know them. Because if you can speak their language, then I really firmly believe that you could be, it doesn't hear me. Of course, the work really matters, but it doesn't matter if you're leading in a corporation, you're leaving in a nonprofit, you're leading in a classroom. If you really understand the individuals that you're working with and you learn to speak their language, I think that's the, we would prefer people to learn our language. And sometimes that is the posture that we expect as leaders, like I'm the leader, I have more responsibilities. My way to me. Yeah. You need to learn my way. Now hear me. I don't think we need to lower any of our standards or policies or procedures, but to really take the time. This is why some of those questions and having a leadership style that asks a lot of questions and listens is so powerful, because you'll begin to pick up on what makes somebody tick, how they're wired, if they're more relationally wired or more task oriented. If they like working more one on one, if they like working in teams and they need to feel included in that process, if they're a verbal processor, or they need time to just step away for a minute and think and then come back, you start to pick up on all these things. And then if you can have that posture of, and this is part of my faith, just the servant leadership, right, that you are like, I'm going to prefer you in the way that I communicate. I know you like this style of communication, so I'm going to, as much as I can, I'm going to go out of my way to do this. I'm going to approach our meetings this way. I remember there was one person I worked with a long time ago. It was really, he was in a lot of ways, just this powerhouse of a guy, and he had a lot of influence in the organization, and he was twice my age when I started leading him on the team. And there was some friction, he did not want to be led by somebody who was younger than him, had less experience, and we talked through work here, but to some degree also a woman, it was the first time that he was in that situation. And I, he ended up being one of my favorite people to work with, and vice versa, but I think part of it was me going, okay, I'm going to just get to learn him. And if I would have just gone based on stereotypes, or first observation and just gone on, it would have been like, you know what, he's the kind of personality. Let's fit a room, let's get to the work, let's talk about goals and let's get out of here. But as I paid attention and I listened, I started to realize, actually, that's how it comes across the first, but that's not who this guy is. He's really relational. He needs to feel like I care about him and I care about his life and I care about his family. So I just learned to start spending the first 15 minutes of every meeting, just, I know it sounds like a long time, but he was a high, he was a high performer, and we could spend the next half of the meeting talking about the work stuff and move forward, but I just was like, hey, how are you doing? How's life? How's this weekend? How's your kids? What did you guys do? Oh my gosh, that's so fun. And I mean, it was a joy to work with him over six months, but if I hadn't done that and taken that time, it would have been a very different experience. So I just would encourage everybody listening, male or female, get to know them as individuals and learn how to speak their language and it will go a really long way. You're still going to run into challenges and friction from time to time and things that just don't work out, but I promise if you want to just up your level as a leader and I have to sometimes stop and do the same thing. Go have I really taken the time to get to know these people and learn these people and prefer them and if I have individuals, then I think it's my leadership is going to go a lot further and the impact is going to be felt a lot further as well. I love that. Nicole, as we wrap up, if somebody was looking for more information or wanted to connect with you or learn more about the coaching that you do, how would they find you? Yeah, you can just go to nicolesmithy.com and I have all my different options. I do communication coaching as well as leadership coaching and speaking at different events. And then on Instagram at nicolesmithy, you can reach out to me there too. But I just want to say thank you again. It's been such a joy to be able to have this conversation. I love chatting leadership and life and I love your podcast and what you do. So it's been a real honor to be a part today. Thank you. It's our pleasure. Thank you so much for being here. I think some great wisdom for all leaders in this season as we're growing and learning. I think it's great. So thank you so much, Nicole. We really appreciate that. This has been another edition of the nonprofit hub podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING]
