Unlikely Frenz
Unlikely Frenz: Episode 11: Healing and Historical Context
- African American community, that's right. And that's about all I knew. I really didn't know too much about Cadillac other than that. I mean, I knew it was used to be a luxury, considered a luxury car, but that was the extent of what I knew about it. - Well, my father owned a Cadillac, so. (laughing) - Hey, friend, how you doing? All the information that you are going to hear this evening on Unlikely Friends podcast is for educational purposes only. If you like this type of content, visit us on YouTube and also on Spotify. Like, share, and subscribe. Now, to the podcast. - Hit the damn record. - Hit the damn record. - He worked the car or something. (upbeat music) ♪ For a long weekend, man ♪ ♪ We can meet the car ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ For a long weekend, man ♪ ♪ We can meet the car ♪ - Welcome, everybody, to the Unlikely Friends podcast where we talk about race, race relations and what it means to us and everything in between. As you can see, Desmond is not with us today because she is unfortunately quite ill. So our friend, Adam, has stepped in to fill the breach. Welcome, Adam. - Thank you. - Adam, can you tell our audience just a little bit about yourself? You don't have to go into, you know, anything deep, just a little bit about yourself and how we met. (laughing) - Okay, my name is Adam. I've lived in Istanbul for the past 20 years, actually over 20 years now. I was born in California, my mom's American, my dad is Israeli, I should say was Israeli, he's deceased. And I've met, how did we exactly, did we meet David? Like, when that happens, so. - Yeah, we met through your ex-wife because she and I were working at the same university. I think she only worked there for like one year or something, then she left, I think she left. - Yes, as far as I remember, she didn't work there for very long. - Yeah, she only worked there for a year because I only worked there for two years, so I worked there for one year, and then she came my second year there, and I think we both left that same year because I left that school to go to a different university to work. So that's how we met, and she told me about, she was like, oh, you'd love him, he's so smart and blah, blah, blah, and yep, yep, that's okay. - Yes, this is my cat, Lucifer, I have two cats. This is VA, the less shy one. (laughing) So. So, yeah, that's how we met, and so we've known each other for how many years now? - We've known each other since 2012, yeah. - Okay, so longer than 10 years now. - Yeah, 2012, yes. All right, Christmas dinner. - Yes. - What do you bring? - I was wondering about that. - Yes, what are you bringing? - Well, I was going to bring something sweet like either banana bread or an apple crumble or something like that, but I-- - Well, apple is nice, but you know, I'm making pumpkin pie, right? - Okay, yes, I do. - Sorry, not pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie. - Sweet potato pie. - Black pokes, we don't eat pumpkin pie. (laughing) - Well, my ex did, or does-- - Yeah, but she ain't a real black person, so. - She's, you want to start a war with her or not? - Do you heard me say that? She would say, what? (laughing) - Yes, so, but I could bring anything of, I mean, if you prefer something else, I could bring, I don't know, a salad, I could-- - You're normally in charge of the cranberry sauce. - Yes, but that's not something I actually make. I just go to the store and buy it, so. But of course, I could get that as well. - Yeah, you were normally in charge of the cranberry sauce and Halit was in charge of the drinks? - Bread, bread, yes. - Bread, it was a bread of drinks. - Usually bread. - Right, okay, he's in charge of the bread. He can be in charge of the bread and drinks this time. - Okay. - I don't know, I haven't spoken to Ruzgar, so I don't know if he can cook or not or if he can bring anything or not, I have no idea. I don't even have a-- - Somehow, I don't think, I could share his number with you, but I don't think he will be able to make it because of work. He's saying-- - Always a good job. - He's got a job, yeah, so he's likely not going to be able to do so, 'cause it's in retail, so. - All right, well, I'll ask him if he can come, that's great, if not, I mean-- - Of course, yeah. - Oh well. But he did say that he could come, when I-- - Spoken. - I didn't speak to him, but he sent him a message and he said that he could come. - Well, what I'm saying is, you know, kind of, well, based on what's not even good, yeah, what are you told me, what are you told me? And so, I don't know any more than that. - Oh, okay. All right, I mean, if he can come, that's great, if not, oh well. - Okay. - There will be other parties. Anyway, although this would be the second party he missed. - Yeah, well, he's, I know he regrets it, so-- - I'm just saying. - He said something about, say, (laughs) keep about missing these events over and over. So, yes, I know he isn't happy about that. - And they, I heard you weren't planning to get a bird or you changed your mind about it, what? - You know what, I am so fickle. I said that I wasn't gonna buy a bird. And then, what happened, the very next day, I get a flyer thrown over my wall into my yard about the birds being on sale at I use Beersch or A101. And I'm like, okay, I'm not having that many people over a whole bird, come on y'all. But I couldn't do this myself. They were on sale because, guess what? The birds that they're selling at Negroes are well over 2,000 Lira. The one they have a car for is all 1,002, well over 2,000 Lira. And they were selling them at I use Beersch or A101. They were selling them for a 1,500 Lira. I was like, I have to get one. - Okay. We could talk about expenses and share in some way if you. - Oh boy, please don't worry about it. I mean, this is all my pleasure, all my pleasure. So I have the bird, I have the sweet potatoes, I have the stuffing, I'm gonna get to the stuffing as well as always. I'm gonna do the potato salad 'cause y'all can't do a potato salad. And it's true, it's true. - I'm not even, see, having grown up in Israel, I really can't make any claims about potato salads. - Okay, the turkey, stuffing, potato salad, sweet potato pie. Oh, and I might do a carrot cake, I might. I'm not sure yet, I might, so I'm thinking about doing that. And if Des comes, you know Des, she's really sick, she has pneumonia. If she comes, then she's going to bring, 'cause she's always in charge of the mac and cheese. But if she doesn't come because of her illness, I'll do the mac and cheese. - Okay, well, the only thing I haven't heard you mention is some kind of salad. So, and I would like to actually make something so cool. So I could do that along with, you know, bringing whatever we used to-- - I was gonna make coleslaw. - Okay, but I could still add to that. - Yeah, bring a salad, that's fine. (upbeat music) - Our first topic for today is-- - I think it was about reparations, I believe. - Yeah, slave reparations. I had listened to a, not a podcast, but it was somebody speaking on TikTok, about slave reparations. And it was really, really, really interesting. - Do you recall who that person was? - No, because it was stitched. - Ah, okay. - So, and I couldn't find, you know, who this person was, but I think he was running for, it was a black man, he was running for public office. I think it was running to be, you know, state council or one of the state lawmakers there. - So this was part of some political campaign. - This is a part of a, well, they were having a debate. They were on the stage with a debate. And he went in on these people. He was like, I don't wanna hear anything about America not being able to pay for reparations when, you know, when Obama was the president, all of these major corporations and banks got all of these, all of this bailout money in the trillions, right? Not even the trillions, in the trillions. And then for Obama, it was, not for Obama, for Biden, it was the PPP loans that were forgiven, that was in the trillions. - Yeah. - Then it was something else for the Trump administration. What was it? There was something in the Trump administration. - Well, he gave them huge tax breaks, two trillions, I think. - No, and when he says, if we can pay for all of these things in the trillions, why isn't it possible black people can get reparations? You know, and there was another woman that I was watching and she said, 40 acres in a mule was alive. She says there were actually some ex-slaves who did actually get some land, not 40 acres, but they got some land from their ex-owners. And nobody got a mule, of course. But that was a problem, it's 40 acres in a mule, right? So they said, she said that some of them got some land and they were able to work their land, they were able to survive a blah, blah, blah, and then from one day to the next, because Abraham Lincoln had died, that land was taken from them. - Yeah, there was some. - Yeah. - And that's why there's no generational wealth in the United States for black people and there should be some reparations. - What I didn't know, by the way, about reparations, I didn't know that, in fact, the debate about reparations actually started even before the Civil War, even before the slaves were actually freed. So, I thought, I'm sure like many that the debate over reparations was a thing that started in the 20th century, but apparently it's much older than that. - Yeah, it is much older than that, but it was, it's being pushed more since like the '70s and the '80s, I've heard more about it. - Right. - You know, in the '50s and '60s, and it was in the middle of Jim Crow, I mean, they were probably talking about it then too, but not as, you know, prevalent as they are talking about it now. But, you know, my point is, or his point, and her point was, you know, if America has all of this money, you know, paying back this in trillions and that in the trillions and this in the trillions, why can't there's always a resistance for black people to get reparations and say, oh, you don't need to be reparated and all, it's like, but why? We work, or my ancestors worked in this country for free. - Yes. - For decades, hundreds of years in this country for free. So why isn't this available for us? But you have money for this, you have money for this. And also they, he also said something about the military getting trillions of dollars or whatever defense aid package or whatever it is. - Right, yeah. - It's really interesting because, you know, I never thought of it. I was like, oh, snap. You know, I mean, this is in the, I mean, come on now. So what do you think? Why do you think that they don't want to do this? I mean, I know why they don't want to do this. - Well, they just don't want to. I mean, it's a simply, I think it's just a matter of, not wanting to do it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You know, I mean, there have been, I believe, like various states and also at some point the House of Representatives, I think, issued some kind of public apology for slavery. Okay, but that's just words. Yes, words. - Apologies, not gonna take the bills. - As they say, talk is cheap. So, you know, actually backing this up with money, kind of, I would say, shows liability in a much clearer way than just some kind of, you know, statement that says, oh, we're sorry, that slavery happened kind of thing. - Shame on me. I just had her name and I just, and it just slipped out of my mind. - DeGroi, Dr. Joy DeGroi, I'm butchering this woman's name. Her name was Dr. Joy DeGroi Leary. - Leary, okay. - And yes, she is a social scientist and she was talking about trauma, black trauma, or slave trauma. The name of her book, she wrote a book, it's called Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. And she was speaking to all of these other scholars that were listening to her talk and it was a mixed room, of course. But you know how their show of documentaries, she's talking about all of this, you know, trauma and trauma is passed on, you know. You just, to one person doesn't mean it. And she was explaining all of this and you can see the literal, not fear, but you can see that knee-jerk reaction that white people have when they are confronted with something about racism. You can see that why do we have to talk about this? It's like, but you knew what this talk was gonna be about. First of all, second of all, this is a jump-off point for you, for your deconstruction and also a learning point. So, what can we do to make this better moving forward, right? - Right. - And when they pan the camera into the audience, you can see some of them are just looking so stern and, you know, just unhappy. And it made me wonder, it's like, geez, are these people, do they wanna go there to learn something or do they just wanna go there to try and pick apart her argument that she was making because it was based on scientific fact. - Was this an academic venue or? - I don't know if it was an academic venue or not. It might have been a hotel, I have no idea, but I was watching it on YouTube yesterday. And I was sitting there the whole time when my mouth gaped. I was like, because you never hear about it. You never hear about it at all. And you don't think that there is trauma, but there is black people and also people who have suffered genocide or, you know, slavery or what's another word that I'm looking for. When you suffer these things, this is carried on from generation to generation. And if there is no point of healing. - No closure of any sort. - No closure or, but the main point is healing. If there's no point of healing, how does this get addressed moving forward? Because it's still just an open wound and an open wound will fester. So how do you heal that and move forward? And this is the point that, you know, black America doesn't talk about because we're not permitted to. And it's something that white America doesn't talk about because they don't want to. So how do we fix that moving forward? This is my question for many, many, many white people. I can't say that I have any real knowledge of any internalized trauma that I have, but I'm sure that it is there. I'm almost positive that it's there. I mean, I would be kidding myself by saying that it wouldn't be. That would be really, really intellectually dishonest. So I don't know, what do you think? - Well, certainly when it comes to, I think they're called intergenerational trauma. - Yeah. - Yeah. - That's what I'm looking for. - Thank you. - Right. I've certainly seen enough material about it to show that it's a valid category, a valid thing. Also, I mean, my family also on my father's side, survived the Holocaust, my great grandfather and great uncles, they all perished there. So, and also, I recall while teaching at another school, I meant that one of the teachers was, her parents were survivors of the Cambodian genocide. So, yeah, at the time I was looking into that topic. And yeah, I think it's definitely, there's certainly a strong case for intergenerational trauma when it comes to slavery. - The thing that probably worries me the most is that when it comes to the Japanese internment that happened in the Second World War. - Yeah. - Or if it-- - They got reparations, right? I believe so. - Yeah, they got reparations. - Yes. - When it comes to what happened in Germany with the Holocaust, I think they're also the Jews, the surviving Jews got reparations. - Yes, Germany paid reparations. - So, what happened to the African-American, the ex- slaves of the United States, we're always told to shut up, sit down, it's in the past, don't worry about it, we're not talking about it, let's move forward, we're always told to forget. But no one would ever, ever, in a million years, say to a Jewish person, oh forget about the Holocaust, it's in the past. - Yeah. - No one would ever say to someone and what happened to the Japanese, oh, don't worry about it, it's in there, nobody would ever think to say that. But people always say that to black people in the United States, oh, it was in the past, why are you talking about it now? There's no such thing as inter, what are you talking about, trauma, why? Everybody pull yourself up by your bootstraps, blah, blah, blah, blah, we're always told to forget, always. And it's annoying, it's dishonest, it's important to faith. And I don't know if it comes from a place of just plain old hatred or ignorance or. - I think it's just that, Pete, I mean, we're talking about white people here, don't want, for the most part, I mean, obviously there are white people who also think reparations is something that should happen, but those that don't, well, one, if you put your money where your mouth is, in a way, by paying reparations, that's a much clearer admission of guilt as a community, at least as a nation, yeah. People forget to talk very easily, you know? It's just those admissions of guilt happened some of them decades ago, people just move on, yeah. But if there's money involved or some other form of material reparation, then it carries more weight. And I think people just don't want to admit guilt, they don't want to be part of, they don't want to be associated with it. It's easier for them to just say, well, leave the past in the past and just move on, 'cause of course they don't want to be reminded of it. In the case of, for example, the reparations in the Germany paint, there was no attempt to escape responsibility. - Mm-hmm. - A good day. - No, that was, there was no way, yeah. But to, to, you know, speaking for what the Germans did, they went through a very thorough process of not only having material reparations, but also going through, I mean, in education, I think Germany is one of those countries where students get a very clear picture of what happened and who was responsible and so on. And there's obviously no attempt can be made to just say, "Oh well, that's not our fault." In the case of the Japanese, I think it's simply that Japanese Americans are, of course, same community that has, I mean, it's a community that, it's a small community, basically. So, and also this was not part of a long pattern. That there was, of course, discrimination against Asian Americans, even before World War II, but yeah, you can kind of isolate these paint reparations and just kind of move on. Yes, it's not something that's on the agenda that keeps being discussed over and over. - Yeah. - Yes, but in the case of slavery, yes, if reparations were to be paint, then obviously this would be an ongoing thing in American public life, pretty much forever. - Yeah, yeah. - So... - You're right. - I mean, it's part of what makes America America, yes? It's in the, what do you call it? In the east of this nation, so you can't escape it. You can't run away from it, it's always there. - It's even, it's literally in the doctrines. (laughing) (upbeat music) - The other topic that I wanted to talk about was the German, I'm gonna say this word wrong, statistician, yeah. Frederick Hoffman, he was the one that migrated from Germany to the United States in the early 1900s, I wanna say. He is the cause of why the United States does not have universal healthcare. He's the reason. - Interesting, what's the connection? - The connection is, is that he was the one that wrote a, not a manifesto, but he wrote a document saying that how black people, African-Americans, because he hated black people, he was a white supremacist, he absolutely hated black people, saying to all of these insurance companies, but he worked at one particular insurance company, saying, look, we do not need universal healthcare, universal healthcare is a good idea, but not now. We should wait, wait until all of the black people die in America, he thought that we were disease prone, we had a higher death rate, but he didn't realize how resilient we were. I mean, we lived through slavery, bro. (laughing) - And you don't really survive that if you don't have the strength, the degenerative strength. Yes, I mean, the people who were not strong enough clearly died, so the people who survived slavery were obviously made of a strong stock, shall we say. - Stern stuff, yeah, exactly. - Exactly, you don't survive that without it. - Right, but it's because of him, saying, no, we should wait. He lobbied Congress for years and years and years and years and years and years. - When did he live, if I may ask? - He, I have it written down just a moment, he was born in 1865, he moved to the United States in 1884. He worked for the Dental Insurance Company of America in 1891 and he died in 1946. - I was just wondering because, you know, it's not discussed often these days, but Nazism was popular among some many portions of the American population in the 1930s. - They had a huge amount of movement in the United States. - Yeah, and they had all these rallies, they had all these events that they organized, they had good connections with politicians and so on. But yeah, so I was just wondering if this statistician was somehow connected with that movement or not, but it seems like he was, I mean in terms of his opinions, yes, but it seems he was a fairly old person by then, so. Like when he was writing these documents, when he was writing for the insurance companies, this was clear. - Yeah, it was in the 1900s, yeah. - Yeah, late in centuries. - He, for some reason, he headed out for black people, he absolutely hated black people. And Germany had, I think, one or two colonies in Africa. And I think that's where it came from, actually. - Could be, but also interesting, by the way, at this point, again, I don't remember that this was precisely, but as far as I remember, it was Bismarck in the 19th century, who actually started basically the welfare state he kind of laid the foundations for the welfare state in Germany. So it's very interesting that, of all people, a German immigrant, who knows what is happening in his home country, when it comes to social policy, thinks that it's a bad idea. And, well, again, simply because black Americans, African Americans will benefit from it. - Yeah, so the person who torpedoed universal healthcare in the United States in the late 1800s, early 1900s, was German, and when I saw that documentary, I said, "You have got to be kidding me," because he thought that black people had more frailties, they were more prone to disease, they didn't live as long, even though they had a higher birth rate than white people, they will die sooner. And there is a little bit of truth to that because black people in the United States are prone to hypertension, heart disease, and it's because of their diet, the food that they were given, it just wasn't healthy. But anyway, I mean, that's neither here nor there, but this is the reason why we don't have universal healthcare in the United States because of this dude. - Well, at least one of the reasons. - Yeah, and you know, and when the insurance companies that we do have in the United States are proposed, the one guy that was just, what was his name? He was just killed. Black people, and I didn't know this, they make black people in the United States, they make black people pay a higher premium than white people. Can you believe that? I had no idea. - Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. I mean, of course, if a value is... - This is a legend, this is a legend, right? - Okay, but basically, if values don't enter into the equation, and you just think about it in terms of risk and value and all those, you know, which have nothing to do with, you know, the values of being human, then you could say it makes sense. Yes, because as you said, because of poor nutrition, because of other factors, African-American suffer from certain illnesses more than white Americans and all that kind of thing. It's kind of, I mean, basically for the same reason that I heard that people who have a red car, or other cars that have really bright colors, they pay a lower insurance premium than others, simply because it's harder to steal those cars. - Really? I heard the opposite, because they're more... - No, no, because it's more noticeable. You see, if someone steals a white car or a, you know, some other, I don't know, silver, gray car, something like one of those cars that you just see, lots and lots of, it doesn't draw so much attention, but stealing a car with a really bright color is harder. - Is that why everybody drives a white car in this country? - I don't know that it's some kind of conspiracy or plan. I think it has to do with other factors too, but... - I think white cars are ugly. I would never buy a white car, never. - They look very close to the time. - Yeah, but I get what I'm trying to say, I just gave this as an example. I just meant if you look at things purely from the standpoint of, okay, financially speaking, what are the likelihoods then? And you say, okay, well, I don't care about if this discriminates against an entire population at all, then you could say, well, yes, it makes sense to charge African Americans a higher premium than white Americans. Just by showing statistics, the same with, say, a 70-year-old person would probably, you know, if they just started their policy, would pay a higher premium. No, I'm just going to give that example randomly, but I guess what I'm saying is the older you get, obviously, you're more likely to have some... - The higher the premium, of course, because they're a higher risk. - Yes, what do they call it, pre-existing conditions? - Yeah, so basically, if you have a pre-existing condition, then your insurance is going to be higher. - True. - And the fact that this discriminates against an entire population, you know, that doesn't really... It's not something that insurance companies really care about. They might like us to think that way, but I don't think they really care about that kind of thing. They care about the bottom line. - Yeah, I never thought about it. That was the only thing that shocked me was the initial information that black people do pay a higher, but when you think about it that way, it's normal. It's powerful, of course. - Well, in a way, it's similar. You could give another example, not about insurance policies, but the policy of not allowing gay people to donate blood. Which only now is beginning to be changed in some countries. - All right, but don't they scan the blood before they take it? - Well, again, that's what I would say. People, I mean, blood doesn't just enter the system without being checked first. But that policy is still an ongoing policy in the US, in European countries as far as I know, in most of the world. Even though, first of all, you can test for it. And secondly, it doesn't necessarily hold water. I mean, of course, there are people at risk in the gay community, but not all the people. Just being gay does not make you more dangerous, more risky. - Um, and um, yeah, but it's just easier for the system to just say, well, we just won't take any blood donations from you. So, same thing. - Oh, God. - The fact that it discriminates against an entire group of people, in this case, a sexual minority, doesn't seem to concern them. And why should it actually, truthfully speaking? - Anyway, my friend, thank you very much for joining me on my podcast today. - Yes, go ahead. - I said it was a pleasure. I was a little bit anxious about it before we started, but it was a good experience. - Yeah, you did a good job. You're doing, I mean, we're doing really well. So, we'll try and have you on more often. I mean, even with, uh, with Desmond, the three of us. - Sure. - Because you are such a wonderful well of information. - Thank you. - And also, you have a very good knowledge of the Arabic language, Hebrew, even some... - Aramaic. - That's Aramaic. It's like, y'all, this boy a brain, okay? He ain't nothing but a brain, okay? So... - Thank you. - We are loving on you. Anyway, thank you very much. Everybody have a very, very, very Merry Christmas or a Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - Happy Hanukkah. - So, absolutely. Everybody have a very, very safe holiday, and we will see you next week. So, take care of yourselves. - See ya. - And Adam, thank you very much. - Bye-bye. - Nooses. - What do you say? - I'll do this. - I'll do this. - Yes, please. [laughter] [laughter] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] (upbeat music)