Unlikely Frenz
Unlikely Frenz: Episode 9: Discussion and Deconstruction
- Listen, I was my, okay, so my dog is having, she had an operation recently, and she's not supposed to try. - No, no, no, no, save it, save it, save it, save it until we start. - Well, we already started, anyway, okay. - Yeah, but we didn't do our intro. - Oh. Okay. Okay. - No. (laughs) - Hit the damn record, hit the damn record. - Of course, he worked hard, something. (upbeat music) ♪ For long, you've been runnin' ♪ ♪ Freakin' beat the car ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ I've been runnin' ♪ - Hey. - Hey, friends. - Hey, friends. (laughs) - Welcome to the "Unlikely Friends" podcast. We're two friends living abroad, talked about race, race relations, and... - How we feel about it, what it means to us. - Yeah, and everything in between. (laughs) - And our gossip. - And our gossip, exactly. So, if you are new here to "Unlikely Friends," please like, share, and subscribe, and hit the notification bell so that you know when we post new content, so ding, ding, baby, ding, ding. And we welcome your lovely comments. And if you follow us, then the algorithm gods know what to do with you and your content. - Exactly. Right, so how you doin'? - Oh my gosh, I'm okay. So, I have a funny story to tell you, actually. I mean, there's a little bit of serious and a little bit of funny. - Okay. - I, you know, recently I've had a little bit of drama with my dog, you know? And we had to undergo a surgery, and we did the surgery, and she came out with flying colors, everything was great. But because she's had surgery, she's not, thanks. She's not allowed to jump. You know, she can't jump, she can't be active. Everything has to come quite. - I mean, she says to peanut, how much can she jump? - She is a jump and bean, let me tell you right now. She jumps everywhere. - Is she now, okay. - Oh my gosh, she's crazy. So I've kind of, I've made the house jump free, you know? Like there's pillows everywhere. You cannot jump anywhere. Well, she tried yesterday. I'm on the phone with my mom, and I'd had some takeout before, you know, and we were just kind of like talking. And I'm on the floor because I have to be with my dog on the floor. I turn my head for one minute and she tries to jump. Well, I turn around, I freak out. - Yeah. - Something about that takeout. - Did she eat some of it? - No, but it unleashed a dragon within my pants. - Oh no. - So she jumped, I had a heart attack and nearly crapped myself. I did not, I did not in fact, crap myself, but I was, it was a moment and I was on the phone with my mom. And I, once I figured out that my dog was okay, she was perfectly fine. I went into a fit of giggles, like full crying giggles because I thought that I crapped my pants, trying to save my dog. - You almost should do be your pants. - Anyway, so that's how I'm doing. I'm okay, everything's fine. - Well, I'm so glad to. (laughing) - Everything's okay. - You're near miss. (laughing) - No kidding, no kidding. How are you? - I'm glad that we didn't, 'cause we had said that we were gonna record every week or try to record every week, right? And I was saying to myself, please, I woke up that yesterday morning and I said, please don't let her send me a message to record today. - Oh gosh, why? - Because where I live, there are lots of gypsies on the far bottom side of the street. - Okay, so and clarify that for people that do not live in this area of the world. What does that mean? - Yeah, here in Turkey, they have a very large, the correct name to call them is actually Roma, Roma people. Although they're not directly from Romania, but they're called Roma. That is the non-slur, if you will. The slur is calling them gypsies because they don't really consider themselves gypsies because it has a bit of a negative connotation. - Yeah, it can. - Some people who are of Roma descent actually prefer to be called Bohemian. The area that I live in, the area that I live in is what they call Gurchmeniette, which means immigrant area. And the people who live here aren't really immigrants, but they're not 100% Turkish, even though they're born here. Their families have been, maybe five, six generations have been born in Turkey. - I'm all over again. - Yeah, but they're not considered to be Turkish, if you will. So the area that I live in, they're full of people from Albania, ex-Yugoslavian countries like Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, blah, blah, blah. All of these people live here, and there's one small area at the very, very bottom of my street. They are gypsies. Now, these gypsies consider themselves to be Turkish because they've been here for God knows how many centuries. I suppose. And they are, you know, Turks, if you ask them, they're not gypsies. Oh, I shouldn't, maybe I don't know if I should say gypsies or not, but I don't know, please, somebody correct me in the comments if I'm allowed to say gypsies or not. - I think that's, I think it's not, we're not supposed to say that anymore. - I think that's the name that they prefer to use. Roma people. - Okay, so there's a large population. - There's a large population, and somebody got murdered. (laughs) And the music was unrelenting. Great music, by the way. Those people not, yeah, 'cause they be getting down with their music now, but it would not stop, and it was allowed. And I was like, oh my God, please Desmond, don't record today, don't record today. And then you sent me a message saying, Winnie and I are going to the vet. I was like, oh, thank God, thank God, thank God, because I couldn't compete with that sound. If we were recording today, you'd be here. (humming) And I'm like, oh, no. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, we, it was a scheduled surgery that was supposed to happen at a certain time, and then it was pushed up because of complications with her and timing with my vet. And so it was one of those, like, oh, we need to just do this right now. But my neighborhood was really similar yesterday, but my neighborhood is full of old families that have been here for a long time, and there's just, in the springtime and in the summer, forget about it, on any given weekend or even spilling into the week, there can be some mad, crazy wedding throwdowns, drums, like a doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. And it goes on forever. One time, I had people, like, shooting off fireworks and I could smell the, like, I could smell the, yes, I could smell it, like, on my balcony. Like, it was so close to our apartment. Police were called, you could tell that there was, like, some sort of argument downstairs because the music went lower and then the police left, and then the music got higher again. And then the police came again, and there was a family argument, and then the music went up again. It was, like, anyway, I did it. - It's like a cat mouse chase with the police. - Yeah, I get it, though. I mean, it's still loud. Hmm. (upbeat music) - All right. Right, so what I wanted to ask you was that there's a question that's going around where people are asking white people, when did their racist deconstruction happen? I mean, like, what steps did you take to get there? Or when did you realize that you weren't, or, I don't know, I'm not exactly sure how I should phrase that. - How did I start to open my eyes? - Yeah, open your eyes and apply it to yourself because that's where the deconstruction, that's what deconstruction is, right? When did you realize in a, like, oh, snap, I need to work on that, or I need to not do that, or blah, blah, blah, what was the catalyst, and what was the process? - To be really, really honest, I think it is still a process for me, and that's mostly because of a couple of things because of where I was raised. I mean, not to, I don't want to put the blame on anyone, but myself, but I can say that, like, environmental factors happen. - But can I just interrupt you for a second? I'm sorry, I don't need to interrupt you, but I need to interrupt you. I have to tell you that racism is a learned behavior. It is definitely a learned behavior, so when you say that you don't want to blame someone, I can't accept that because someone is the blame for making you think that way, you know? And I mean, nobody is born thinking that way. - No, you're right. - So I have to push back just a little bit, a friendly pushback because I love you. - No, no, yeah, I mean, okay, I'll accept it. But yeah, it was environmental, like, where I grew up. I wasn't exposed to a lot of people that look different from me, so I didn't really know how to, I just didn't know, I didn't know anything about anything, and even in the education system, where I grew up, there wasn't a lot of, we didn't really talk about history in terms of slavery, which is kind of crazy because that's, I mean, all the slaves came from South, you know? But we had a Martin Luther King day, and we talked about the Underground Railroad for like two days, and that was it. And then as I grew up, I had more exposure, but that exposure wasn't always a healthy exposure, like to different kinds of people. I had some difficulty in middle school. I got some unwanted attention, and I was scared about that. I was unwanted attention from you. - Were you assaulted? - Guys, no, well, I don't know. I don't know really what that means. He took me from behind, we were in class, but the teacher wasn't there. He took me from behind and took my neck and was holding me up. So I guess, yeah, I guess I was. - That's assault, I'm sorry, but yeah, that's assault, yeah. - But I don't really know. It wasn't, I don't think it was warranted because I was really shy as a kid. I can't imagine ever saying anything to anybody that would have been offensive. I think I'm pretty much the same person now. I try to be really careful with my words. And anyway, but it's been a process. And I went to university and I had more exposure to different kinds of people. And then I learned more about the civil rights movement in university in England that I did in my own state in South Carolina, and that opened my eyes a bit. But I think even still, there were some aspects that I couldn't, my brain couldn't quite let go of. Like, I didn't know how to, because I just didn't have, I didn't have enough exposure. I didn't have enough friends that didn't look like me. And so it took time for me to reprogram my brain and also, yeah, like take out all of that history of the crap that my friends would say and stuff that I would hear adults say and stuff that I would even hear family members say. It's been a process, and I still, it still is. And I'm still trying, I'm still, I feel like I'm still trying to learn and still trying to reach that level of hopeful empathy and sympathy and understanding, you know? - I think it is a lifelong process, especially for- - It really is. - For, I'm just gonna come right out and say it for white people who finally realize, it's like they've been walking around in a haze or like in a fog, they're like, where have I been for the past 15, 20 years when they finally realize how real racism is and how they are absolutely not affected by it? - Or in the mistakes that you've made, I've definitely made mistakes along the way. Like I don't think they've been wildly offensive mistakes, but mistakes regardless. And like, yeah, it's just, it's been a process. It's been a process. - And like I said, I think it's going to be like a lifelong process because there are still, you know, and I tell people, I tell my students, I should say, that how much internal racism is in America is like, even though I love my country, I really do. But when I think of America, the first thing that pops into my mind is racism, because I've experienced it there as a black American. So when I tell my students that there is no slowly but surely in 2024 and the year of our Lord, there is still racism in the United States and that there are people who are deconstructing their own racism in the United States. They're shocked. They're like, teacher, are you sure? I'm like, yes. - Yeah, no, absolutely. Because that stuff is inherited. I mean, you're right. It's not something that children just come out and they are, I can say definitely as a preschool teacher. I can tell you they don't even understand the difference between boy and girl, never mind the color of your skin. Like they just don't, they don't see that. So it is a learned behavior and trying to deprogram yourself and try to go back and say, wait a minute. There are things I could have done differently or things that maybe I should have said differently. - But you know, Desi, I mean, when I first met you, the first thing that popped into my head was, oh, snap, she's from the South, she's racist. That's the first thing that popped into my mind. Yeah, 'cause my grandmother's like, my grandmother told, she's like, be, you know, be careful around people from the South. And as a black man, he's like-- - He's not alone. - You really have to be careful about, you know, why women's from the South. (laughs) - Yeah. - So, and I consider you the complete opposite of anything that could ever be construed as racist or, you know, not even have a racist bone in your body. It's like, if someone came out to me and said, Desi, I'm like, you have got to be lying. Desma would never ever, in a skedrillian years, say something racist, never. - I'd like to think that about myself, definitely. - You are, that's just not you. So, when did you realize, like, you know, this is not me, this is not who I am, this is not what I'm going to perpetuate. This is not what I'm going to manifest in the world. What process, or what did you do to get to that point, because you are literally the poster child for a non-racist white woman. (laughs) Seriously, I have never, ever heard you say anything. - It's really kind. - I mean, to my face or in rumor, I have never, ever heard, you say even a bad word about somebody, even somebody that we know mutually, that you don't particularly care for anymore, or I shouldn't say care for, don't particularly have contact with anymore. You still won't speak bad about that person. I have never heard you speak bad about anybody actually. You're so sweet. - That's, that's very sweet, that's very sweet. That's my mom, that's my mom, definitely. She's, she's, she did well to teach us kindness and respect. And I think that came from her travel, and I think that came from her life experience. - That's right, your mother was a traveler too, wasn't she? She's been around the world a couple of times. - Yeah, she, well, my grandfather was in the Air Force, so she traveled a lot. And I think that kind of like, that really helps you to- - Open your eyes. - Yeah, and empathize with different people because when you become the minority, man does that really shift your view. And you don't really know what that feels like until you've been put in that situation. When I was in Korea for the first time, you know, like a, you know, a really different place where you really do stick out like a sore thumb. It, there were some things that shifted in my mind in that year that were major. Like, because I think I needed to understand truly what it felt like to be an outsider. And I was like being on the Metro and people staring at you and like laughing whenever you spoke because you're trying your best to communicate, but you know, like it, it really, that experience shifted a lot from me. - I mean, in South Korea, blonde hair, blue eyes, my God. - It was, well, I mean, I just stuck out like a sore thumb, but I mean, all of us did, all of us foreigners were different, you know? So, and at that time, there weren't a lot of people. I mean, there were like several handfuls of people that were doing in Korea. I wasn't the first person that, you know what I mean? There were a lot of people that were there. But you do have a sense of, wow, I am an outsider here. And that kind of mindset and that kind of understanding of, wow, I really, really, I'm different. Like that kind of experience kind of shifts your attitudes towards lots of different things. Like when I came back to South Carolina, somebody was talking about people that had come in to work on the farm, we have a lot of farming communities in South Carolina, very rural areas, tobacco farming, and all kinds of different farming. Anyway, the people that work on those farms are not always white people. And we were in, I think we were in like Walmart or something we were shopping and somebody said something, a family member said something like, oh my gosh, there's so many, da, da, da, da, here, you know? And something like, I don't understand why they don't speak English. And I just, it's like, you do realize I was one of those people like just 10 days ago, like I had just come back from Korea. I said, I am one of those people and you have to be careful and kind and patient, you know? And so that kind of, I think that that year was a huge shift for me. And I had some tough conversations with some really honest friends that helped me kind of shift, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. I'm not thinking correctly about this. Like, you know, I already feel like I tried my best, but there are things that we all need to help ourselves with, you know? We all need to be more kind always. So, and more empathetic, you know, to people that are not in our situation than are not like exactly like us, you know? So, I don't know. I think that experience really helped me. But I don't think there was one singular experience. It's just like little tiny things along the way that kind of like add up, yeah. That year was a big, big year for me though, because I thought, oh, wow, like, I-- But you know, as you're telling me this, so I think, I think you going abroad and being in a different country, I think that might have been the catalyst for you. - Huge. - Absolutely. - Huge because it's like, wait, I have to look at this differently. - Yeah. - And I think if more people got out of their comfort zone and more people traveled to different places, they would really understand. - Well, I implore you the next time-- - The same. (laughs) - I implore you the next time you go back to them United States, please bring Margie Taylor Greene back out of the country to somewhere. (laughs) She gets on my nerves. (laughs) (upbeat music) - Look, so I was with like two preschool boys. This is years ago, and one of them would just do ridiculous things to, you know, his classmates, just woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, you know, like just annoying things, you know? And the friends would just stop and, you know, just kind of annoying. And then there was a new kid that came, he joined our class a little bit later. And he, you could tell he was a bit like street wise and also he just had his own mind. He didn't really care what the others thought. Anyway, so this kid came up to it. That the new kid hauled off, pushed him flat on the floor. The goofy kid, his eyes were his biggest quarters, and I didn't say a ding dong thing. (laughs) Sometimes you need to be put in your place to understand. - But you know what? That little kid woke up and chose violence though. I mean-- - But he'd had enough. - He'd had enough of the silly one. Was he always doing it to him? - This was not the first. - Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. - Yes, this was not the first. But he was like-- - I was like, he woke up and chose violence. - He was like, "Uh-oh." No. (laughs) I don't allow them to do that. But if there's a situation where one needs to understand, and that's empathy, man, that's empathy, you gotta understand people don't want it anymore and finished. Like, she needed a spoonful of what she got. You know, and I say this in all honesty, I think the reason why we have so much hateful and backwards and disgusting this in the United States is because there's not enough discipline at home. It's like, "Oh, my kid's a good kid." My kid would never say that, you know, there's no accountability, there's no accountability, because, you know, me growing up in my family, we were accountable for every little thing that we did. And I know, I told you this story, but a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine when I was in high school, in front of me called his mother a bitch. He called her this word. How I was brought up, if I had said that word, I was waiting for a cookery to start flying. I was waiting for-- - The ice water. - Yeah, I was waiting for, you know, spatulas, rolling things. - Go pick a switch. - Go pick a switch. - I was waiting for every, 'cause we were in the kitchen, I was waiting for his mother to throw something at his head. Do you know what she said? She's like, "Don't call me that." - And that was it. - That was it, that was it. - No, see now at home, you definitely need to build, you've got to have the foundation of kindness and respect for people. - But that's just-- - If you don't have that. - There's no, it's for a lot of families, I have to say this, ugh, for a lot of white families in America, there's no accountability. They don't, they, their kids are angels, their kids would never do something like that, you know. They're not being held accountable for anything. - Or let's talk about what you just said. Some of that I agree with, hey listen, I'm a preschool teacher, I've been doing this for a long time and I understand the need to communicate through problems and through issues and talk about your feelings and all that, but sometimes you're wrong. - You're wrong, for not being kind, finished. - It's the truth, and whenever I have a conversation with a kid, I'm usually like, no no, we're finished with the conversation. Like-- - We're done. - Dead stop, that was wrong, you can't hit him. It's wrong, finished. - Wrong, wrong. - There's nothing else-- - Oh my Jesus. (laughing) - Oh my Jesus. - I-- (upbeat music) - Oh. - Yes, and I'm glad you asked me that. - 'Cause I'm sure that that happens, you know? - Yeah. - I mean, it happens probably every day somewhere, but-- - Yeah. - What was that moment? - That moment was... Time out. I am so hot. (laughing) - I was holding on, I was like, are you okay? - I'm having a hot flash, hold on. (laughing) - No. (laughing) Oh Lord, oh Lord, I understand, listen. Jesus. - Age is a thing, all of a sudden, heat creeps up on you. Do you wanna get some ice water? - Oh, you're saying something, but I can't hear you so I don't have my headphones on. I can only hear the sound coming out of my headphones, but I can't hear you hear you. Just hold on a second. - He's fanning himself off, plus it's heart. I know, I've been married. - Lord, have mercy. - Do you want some ice water? (laughing) - My temperature just went boop, boop, boop, boop. - Age is a thing, man. Age is a thing. - I'm telling you. - I get it, I get it, I get it, I definitely get it. - All right, no, I'm glad that you asked me that question because I was working part-time at the military university here in Istanbul teaching English. I was teaching there, I think like two or three days, and I was teaching there two days a week. And I asked the students, I'm like, you know, what made you wanna be a soldier, blah, blah, blah, dip, dip, dip. And one of those soldiers says, he says, because I hate Arabs and Kurds. (sighing) And I had to say, - Let's unpack that. - Yeah, but after class, not during class. I didn't wanna say anything to him during class. - Okay. - Although, I'm sure that there were more students, well, no, no, that was actually not because I'm sure there were other students who felt the same way that he did. - Okay, all right. - I know, it was big that you didn't wanna embarrass him, but it was-- - Right, I didn't wanna point him out. What a lot of people don't know about Turkey is that there is a huge influx of Syrians and Arabs and people from Afghanistan, they have a huge influx of immigrants right now for whatever-- - Yeah, because of all of this. - Asylum-based reasons. - Right. - And they also don't like Kurdish people so much because of the PKK, which is understandable. I'm down with that. I have no problem with that. Nobody needs terrorism, right? But to just come right out and say that you hate them. - And not everybody's a terrorist. - And not everybody's a terrorist, right? Just because a certain group of people are extremists, it's the same-- - Exactly. - And that's how I had to start with his deconstruction. I had to say to him, it says, not everybody who was Kurdish is a terrorist. So you can't paint them with such a broad brush. I says, and if that's a reason to hate somebody, then I can give you 100 reasons to hate white people and his eyes got really big. He says, teacher, why? I says, because of this, this, this, this, I can give you so many reasons why. And I don't hold that against white people per se. I pointed out when I see it, but I don't hold it against white people. I really don't. He says, you have a teacher word not in America. She says, you're absolutely right, we're not in America, but it's the same concept. - Yeah, problems are the same everywhere. - It's the same concept. You just can't say that all black people are lazy or all black people, you just can't do that. So that's how I started his deconstruction. Now I'd say to him, I says, for you to understand this further, you have to do the work yourself. Do the work yourself. Read a book, get educated about it. I says, there are lots of people wrong to people. Yes, I said, there are lots of people who are coming into this country because they will not survive in their own contrasts, and if the same thing happened here in Turkey, I'm sure that there were other countries who would be more than happy to help. He really didn't move the needle on that one so much, but I told him to start thinking about it. So I planted that seed where his deconstruction couldn't start. By the end of the school year, he said to me, they didn't call me teacher, they always called me sir. He said, sir, I want to thank you very much. And I said, thank me for what? 'Cause I had forgotten all about that I had spoken to him about it. I'm saying, thank me for what? - Well, you have a million students. That's understandable. - Well, no, at the military school, there were only like 24, 25 students. - Okay, okay. - Yeah. So he says, teacher, you really made me think about racism. And at that point, my heart kind of like skipped a beat. And I got goose pimples. I was like, really? I said, I had forgotten all about that conversation. He says, teacher, I never forgot about it. I never forgot about it. And that warmed my heart. It really, really did. And he almost brought me to tears because before I left, he saluted me. And none of the other soldiers there, none of them saluted me, but he saluted me. He says, he says, you're a good man. - But you know, if that, you may have changed the direction of his life. - I probably did. You know, but I don't think of it that way. - But you may have because if his mindset was a certain way and you shifted it, then what he will do with the rest of his life. I mean, who knows, you know? (upbeat music) (laughing) - Thanks for listening. And thanks for being with us on this unlikely journey. - Absolutely. And if you are watching on YouTube, please remember to like, share, and subscribe. And hit the notification bell so that you know when we post up a new video. So ding, ding, baby, ding, ding. - ding, ding. And if you like and comment, then the algorithm, God's know what to do with you and your content. - Absolutely. - Happy holidays, everybody. I hope you guys have a great holiday season and whatever holiday you decide to choose to celebrate. - Happy, happy, happy, happy holidays. Or what was the other one not happy holidays? What seasons, greetings. - Seasons, greetings. - Seasons, greetings. So season, greetings, everybody. - Yeah. - Okay, friend. - I'll talk to you later. - Bye. - Bye. - Deuces. (laughing) Okay. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)