BTC Sessions
WHY ARE WE BULLISH: Katie the Russian, Bram Kanstein, Nico Moran ep424
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- Duration:
- 1h 32m
- Broadcast on:
- 06 Jul 2024
- Audio Format:
- aac
[MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Yo, yo, how's it going everybody? You've got a better yo than me, I think. >> Man, I'm just hyped to being Canada, we went to a lake, it's apparently it's summer here, but the water is still really, really cold. >> It's freezing. >> Ben went on jet skis, and I stood on the dock and watched. >> [LAUGH] >> But yeah, that was a lot of fun. >> You're there in spirit. >> Yeah, it's been a good time. You've got another day here, we're gonna go to the mountains. We just wrapped up the Bitcoin rodeo here in Calgary. We've had a blast. There's a sat market, we did all kinds of awesome stuff. And now we're here doing why are we bullish live, and we've got a couple additional guests joining us, they're in the wings right now. It's gonna be a lot of fun, but before we dive into that, of course this is actually live. And so we're both gonna defer to our good friend Bill here, maybe. [MUSIC] >> We'll do it live, fuck it. Do it live, I'll write it and we'll do it live. [MUSIC] >> Of course, if you have not already, please do like, subscribe, share all those things. They help a ton getting this content in front of more eyeballs. I am Ben, he is Niko with the BTC Sessions. This is your daily session. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Before we bring in our guests, we're gonna take a quick look at where we are in the market as everybody is ever real scared or you're all dumping your coins now. [LAUGH] >> It's over, pack it up. Bitcoin's going to zero. >> Obviously, it's dead. So this is timechaincalendar.com. We are sitting at $56,503 per coin, a single US dollar. Here's the positive part, we'll grab you 1,770. Sats in terms of fees, only 14 Sats per byte for next block. And in terms of Bitcoin mine, 19.72 million of them, that's 93.91% of the total supply. We're gonna give a quick shout out to our sponsors of the show. And we'll be back in just a moment. >> Mission to enable independence by being one of the easiest and quickest ways to purchase Bitcoin in Canada and the US. The best part about it, every buy goes directly into your own self custody. They never hold your coins. You can add a Bitcoin address as part of onboarding. There's a transparent 1% spread, no hidden fees, no withdrawal fees. Plus they have KYC free cells and bill payments on their website. They're also a publicly traded company under the ticker BTCW on the TSXV. Check them out over at bitcoinwell.com, check out my full tutorial on how to use them. And you can check out the links in these show notes down below and sign up today. Some of the best hardware on the market today to secure your Bitcoin. The cold card queue is an absolute powerhouse and is my daily driver. Not top of this, they have plenty of other goodies including the Mark 4, the tap signer, open dimes, the block clock, and much more. If you head over to their website, make sure you use code BTCSessions at checkout to get a nice discount. Links are in the show notes down below. All right, and we are back in and we're going to be bringing in our guests, of course, my co-host with the most, Mr. Niko Moran. Thanks for being here, man. Dude, excited to be here back in Canada a second time and already excited to come back the third time. Hell yeah, we'll be doing it. And let's get our other guests in here. I'm going to bring them both up at the same time. We'll do a quick round of interest. You've already know what's up, they know who you are. Yeah, I'm Niko, host us in the Bitcoin and follow, subscribe. Yeah, all that good stuff. And we're going to bring in simultaneously Katie and Bram. Thank you both for joining us. So excited to have you. Let's do a quick round of interest so you guys can introduce yourselves and what you do if anybody's unfamiliar. So Katie, I'll toss it to you first. Give yourself a quick intro. What's up, guys? Happy to be here. I'm Katie. I'm founder and CEO from B Passberg, where we held Bitcoiners all over the world to obtain second citizenship. That's what's up. Hell yeah. I feel like I need one of those being in Canada. So... In Canada. Yeah. We'll be chatting, I think. Bram, I'll toss it down to you as well. Can you give yourself a quick intro? Yeah, what's up, guys? Happy to join. My name is Bram. I am the host of the podcast Bitcoin for Millennials. And as I just said, before we started, it's midnight here, so it's a midnight party for me. I love it. You're a trooper. It's always those European guests that kind of get left out to the wolves in terms of timing of the show, but I'm glad that you hung in there and decided to do it. So thanks, man. I appreciate it. Of course. Awesome. So how old are Millennials? Millennials are... How old are Millennials? Millennials, yeah. Then I have to check. The oldest Millennials are like 41, 42, and the youngest are, I think, around 26. I can do a quick Google about something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm somewhere in the middle there. I won't reveal exactly. We'll just assume the youngest, right? We'll just go with 26. Yes. 10 is 52. All right, well, we're going to dive right in. Anybody watching that's unfamiliar, this is why are we bullish, a pretty simple concept to the show. The idea is each one of us comes with a reason for being bullish. That might be... It really could take any form. It could be a personal experience, maybe a book that we read, something that we watched, maybe even an app or a device that we've tried. It could be really whatever floats our boat at the moment. So the flow of the show is pretty simple. Number one, somebody's going to drop their reason for being bullish. This is their chance to rant on whatever is currently exciting for them. Number two, altogether we're going to riff on that reason, comments, questions, discussions, whatever rabbit holes we decide to go down. And then when we finish that topic, number three, we're going to rotate to the next person until we've all had a turn. So pretty simple, reason, riff, rotate, and we're off to the races. So I will get us started today. And my reason for being bullish is actually in and around developments in lightning that have been happening, or at least kind of pushed to the forefront this week that I'm excited about. And that is something called Bolt 12. And those that have played around with lightning will be familiar with the idea that typically you have to generate some type of an invoice. And if you post a QR code that can expire eventually, you don't really have those static QR codes. Like you could in Bitcoin, even though it's not great to have a static QR code with an on-chain address, you could do it if you needed to. Well, Bolt 12 changes that and does allow you to have a static QR payment code that actually affords you better privacy than doing it on-chain. And that payment code can be reused as many times as you like. And the reason I'm excited about it is because Phoenix Wallet, one of my favorite mobile lightning wallets, has rolled that out. And simultaneously, strike has like a little bit of a developer playground around that for all of these different implementations of lightning to help people be able to roll it out more quickly. And yeah, I think it's nice to be moving in my opinion in a much easier, friendly direction for lightning, not having to create an invoice that will eventually expire and all the troubles that come with that. And I look forward to playing with it and getting my hand dirty in and around the realm of Bolt 12, I still got to dig into it a little bit technically to better understand what's going on in the background there. But yeah, it's very promising. And the one thing that I'll say to, I think L&D was kind of dragging their heels on implementing it because they're busy doing the L&D URL thing. And they've got their hands full with some other stuff. But this launch and this bull 12 drop with Phoenix and a bunch of other people diving in now, I think that'll force the hand of L&D into implementing it fast. So because you have a whole bunch of different standards for lightning, now that people are starting to move on it, it's going to kind of force the hand of those that haven't bothered the implement quicker. So I'm looking forward to it. So anyways, that's why I'm bullish, that's why I'm excited. And yeah, I guess just generally I'll open it up to you guys in terms of, I guess your experiences with lightning thus far. Are you familiar with the idea of a reusable ping code and lightning or like, you know, where are you at in your lightning journey? I'll leave it there and let you guys chime in. I used to be as much more active user of lightning like at the early days. You know, remember how we were doing tip in me on Twitter? And that was really big. Like we were using lightning for every little comments here and there. And then I would buy cars, where do you buy cars like that? I don't remember. But basically my Twitter tip in me would pay for all my coffee every month. I remember that. And that was my, that much feel like all the coffee I bought this month was through the tipping me on Twitter. That was pretty cool. But these days, honestly, I've been only doing big payments, okay. I've been bawling too much to notice micro payments. So that's just not for me anymore. No, truly, maybe, maybe I became a wars big corner ever since I've become a mom because I used to be on top of all these little new developments and trying to really even force myself sometimes to try and utilize it. Now I'm just a mom who is into Bitcoin very much. So that's, I mean, that is bullish in and of itself. I think that's one of the goals of having sound money is to not have to know every little thing that's happening in Bitcoin and be able to just lead a happy life with a family too. So, you know, I see that as, as pretty bullish. I don't know. Bram, how about you? What's where are you at in your lightning journey? Are you familiar with bolt 12? Like where are you at with all this stuff? I am a super lightning noob, if I'm honest, like I, I still have the wallet of Satoshi with my random username at wallet of Satoshi. So I'm, I'm, I think that is a good illustration of where I'm at in my lightning journey. Did you name something like, something or something or I don't know, random? Yeah. So I'm trying to, no, I'm, I'm actually using it because I do want my, my custom username. So what I do is, so I also publish my podcast on fountain. And sometimes people, you know, send some donations and I always send those sets back to my, my wallet of Satoshi. And there's one person I pay with it. And that's my hairdresser. I kind of orange filled him and he's now accepting Bitcoin. So yeah, that goes straight from fountain to my hairdresser. But that's basically, that's basically where I'm at. So when you started talking about 12, I was like, Oh, damn, I'm not right up on that. That's okay. That's okay. A lot of people are totally different places depending on how they're utilizing Bitcoin. Like I'm basically living on Bitcoin, I earn like 90%, 95% of my income is Bitcoin. And then day to day, I'm like regularly making payments for stuff, whether it be like gift cards or whatever. And, you know, I've got people that do some work for me that I pay in Bitcoin. So it's, it's a frequent thing for me. So I need to be transacting more. So I suppose it makes sense that I'm using lightning quite a bit. But, you know, in terms of saving mechanism, I recognize why if that's kind of somebody's main first and foremost use case, then yeah, you're going to gravitate to on chain and hardware and things like that and multi-sig. Yeah. But I mean, Nico, like where you've, I remember you calling me being like Ben Wallace, Toshi was banned in the US. What do I do? Like where are you at now? What are you using? Yeah. So I'm, you know, I make content for a living, right? So to me, you know, I just put all my energy into that. And in, in terms of just like the small payments of Bitcoin, and I don't think you can really cut corners on self custody. So you have to learn that, you know, I spent the first couple of years that I was in Bitcoin learning that. But you know, for convenience sake with like, you know, holding $500 or maybe $1,000 on a lightning wallet so that you can spend it easily. Like for example, the sap market that you just hosted, you know, a couple of days ago, I put $200 on my strike wallet and I went to every single vendor and I bought something that they had, right? Just to support the community. And in terms of like the best wallets so far right now that I'm really enjoying, of course, you know, the US rug pulled wallets, it started with wallets associated got out of the US to kind of avoid the whole regulatory BS. But my, my favorites are the primal wallet, which is great. Albie is actually really awesome and it's kind of tricky to connect it with Zeus. But once you do, it's a really great wallet, but I got to say, man, the strike wallet is just absolutely incredible. I know it's KYC. I get that, but you know, you can buy instantaneously, you can withdraw instantaneously. It functions like a lightning wallet, you can send, you can receive that's as a convenience maxi for small payments. I got to say strike is really killing the game right now, which is weird because it's not, it's not just a wallet, it's like an exchange. Yeah. Yeah. It's like all built together, right? But, and another thing also, like one last thing, Ben, is it's getting to the point where lightning is, is easy to use enough or I see myself regularly using it, like in different situations and even before the sat market when I went to El Salvador, you know, I went out of my way. I was like, Oh, you accept Bitcoin, lightning, it give you a little, you know, little, you know, little haptic feedback, at least the strike wallet. But I got to say, until lightning payments gets to the convenience of Apple Pay, which is like everyone has that NFC, like you click the size of side of your phone. It goes, it makes you feel good, you do the face can, and then you can pay for stuff until lightning gets to that point. And I think it can, you know, traditional fiat payments for the convenient minded seem to be leading the pack right now, in my opinion. I'm going to cancel, but that's my opinion. In that Apple presentation of a few weeks ago, they actually showed this new technology where you can like put the phones next to each other. And then, I don't know what it was, it was not payment, but I think maybe like airdrop or something. But there was some kind of technology where you put them like together, just with a little space in between, and then stuff could transfer. And then there were already people commenting on Twitter, like, this is the lightning thing. The phones have X, and then, you know, they exchange contact information. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting with Apple. Was it that? Huh? Yeah. I thought like, is this super fancy, but apparently, people talked about it like that. No, no, no, I'm guessing, but I mean, you can control you a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do that, though. So, I mean, like, you're, and we're starting to see that in and around lightning, one of the merchants. So, Katie and Bram, we had here in Calvary just on Monday, our third sat market. So I basically put together a bunch of merchants from all over my city. There's a 30 something merchants that all got together. And we did a big market, and everybody at the market accepts Bitcoin. And so, you know, we get everybody paying and lightning and everything. And one of the merchants has, has used like a point of sale terminal with NFC and a preloaded NFC cards that can tap to pay with lightning. And so he's done this whole thing where people can come and if they want to preload a card and pay in cash and get a card and then go around to merchants and tap to pay. So it's starting to get to the point where it can be easy like that, it's just obviously not ubiquitous. But I like what I'm seeing and the one last use case that I'll mention, the most important use case that Niko partook in yesterday, which is degenerate gambling because last night there was a poker game and I donated some sats to it because I'm horrible at poker. And Niko also donated some sats to it, but he's much better than I am. So yeah, I got lucky. No, but no, it is true because it was it was kind of surreal, right? We all, you know, one player is the bank, essentially, and they function as the bank and you all have to put, you know, your money in the bank, right? It's like, okay, so if everyone's chipping $100 and then you get $100 with the chips, right, you send it to one person and on chain, like, especially with fees where they are right now, becomes a little bit unviable and it was just so easy. We all scan the QR code. I've been getting practice because tone bays host the poker game in Miami, like every two weeks. But you know, you just you lightning it, you just put all this, you know, Bitcoin to be a lightning into a single wallet and then, you know, who wins it takes the pot, right? And it was just so convenient, so easy to use. I don't think that was possible, like two years ago, you know, would have been tricky. There would have been some waiting around. Yeah. Especially if you don't trust the other degenerates sitting out. Yeah, so it is what it is. But yeah, I mean, I like where we're headed with the lightning. I think it's going in the right direction and hopefully it continues to get easier and easier. So, yeah. And with that, and I think Katie's on her way back in, oh, I see her, I see her. She's in there somewhere. But with that, I think we're going to we could put a bow on that topic. You know, I'm happy with with lightning and I just hope it continues to proliferate and get easier for people. But besides that, we're going to do a rotation. And Bram, I think I can toss it to you first. And I will queue you up with the same question everybody will eventually get. Why are you bullish? I am bullish because I see that the mind virus of Bitcoin is spreading. I think I talked with Nico about this before. But the idea that I really love is that eventually, you know, you cannot orange pill someone, you know, people orange pill themselves. And it's an individual journey into understanding what Bitcoin is and eventually also, you know, being incentivized to, you know, actually contribute to it in whatever, whatever way possible. When you study, you adopt and you contribute to it in whatever your role is, right? And I think last week, I've seen so many and I want to connect this to, you know, more like the global game theory. So last week, I saw so many people. I think Thomas Messy in Congress, he was in a podcast with Safedeen. He talks about ending the Fed. Today there was a woman in the German parliament, which had a petition or an amendment. And again, selling the Bitcoin that the German government owns, inviting other members of parliament to a session with Samson Mao. Of course, we see Trump talk about strategic, you know, Bitcoin as a treasury asset. So I love the idea that, you know, Bitcoin is a mind virus and it goes person by person, but also that big organizations and corporations are made up of all these individuals, right? And that we are already everywhere. And yeah, that is just why I'm really bullish and I wanted to see with you ask you how you see that global game theory and that individual mind virus. I mean, I think you're honing in on something that's very, very true where everybody, every Bitcoiner is just a regular person and those people, as you said, are everywhere. And so it's no wonder that gradually you're seeing these pockets pop up all over the globe, right? Especially, I love the kind of bottom up, I guess, community based Bitcoin, I guess movements that are happening, whether it be starting with, starting with, you know, little local circular economies or, you know, whatever it may be, I think those are incredibly exciting. Like you see places like El Zante, but then you start to see like Bitcoin Lake in Guatemala and you start to see all these. And then people like myself in another city say, well, I want that here for myself too. I'd love to be able to just live on Bitcoin and separate myself. And also, I'm going to give a shout out to this douchebag in the chat here, because, you know, all I'll say is have fun staying poor and we'll get our person out of here. But they can, they can, you know, they will buy Bitcoin at a much higher price. But again, this seeps into society and so it's no wonder that we see, you know, pockets of politicians and people going, oh, like, wow, there's actually a problem with the money. Things are going wrong. Like that Thomas Massey thing. That was super interesting because he literally like, obviously he's been not a huge fan of the Fed for quite a, quite some time, but then he reads the Bitcoin standard. And then he's like, wow, maybe I should, you know, put, put something into writing and see if I can get support to end the Fed. And obviously, like, that's not a thing that's going to happen right away. But the amount of support that he got out the gate was far more than he anticipated. There was something like 20, between 20 and 30 individuals that supported that, that, that piece that he put forward, whereas before, I think the record for any sort of support for something like that was like three. So, so already like an order of magnitude more support. And again, I think you're seeing politicians obviously like right now it's, it's a, a topic. It's an election topic, which is, I didn't, you know, I didn't have that on my bingo card for this year. I thought maybe like next cycle or one after that, but to see a presidential campaign having some basis in Bitcoin is mind boggling, like it seems like a simulation, but it's, it's seeping in everywhere. And again, it's, it's in on the individual basis. And it's really hard to stamp that out is the most exciting part, I think anyway. So I, I'm curious either Niko, if you want to dive in and then we can get, can I add one little thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah. But what I love is that I tweeted that this week, like the Bitcoin is already like the network state, you know, like this, because all these individuals are everywhere in the world already, you see that the messaging around, around topics that are about Bitcoin also gets amplified, right? So this random woman from a German, from the German Parliament that not that we never heard of. I don't know, like there's a tweet from her that has like 300,000 views because all these crazy Bitcoiners are retweeting, you know, this message and replying and all these things. And so, or when the ECB tweets, you know, there's no one who says like, Oh, yeah, you know, inflation is down, or yeah, if he had money, no, there's, there's only Bitcoiners in the comments, right? And I think that it's a really interesting thought to, to think about like any important moment or message or amendment or law or whatever, we are amplifying that. And so it will get way more views than people who are against it or alternatives or whatever. And so we are already, already there, and I just really love to see that. Yeah, that's why I think Trump is going to double down on that because yes, some Bitcoiners might throw some sats at him, but we are really good at spreading information. We're making things viral, especially on Twitter and Twitter is the most political platform too. So once he sees this response from all the crazy Bitcoiners like doing this clip of, I'm going to, I'm going to set Ross free and there's so much support, support for that. Yeah, he's going to double down on talking about Bitcoin at least. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean, like the, the freedom mind virus is 100% spreading. You see this and you see this like not only in the Bitcoin sense, but you know, the election, of course, of Javier Malay in Argentina, you know, of course, what Michaela is doing in El Salvador. And of course, I don't think that you can have freedom without Bitcoin. I think they go really hand in hand. So yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. And then in political sense, like even here in Canada, right, you have, I still cannot pronounce his last name. Pierre Polyvar. Pierre Polya. And you know, he has a good chance because everyone's not really happy with the current prime minister. He has a good chance at winning elections. I mean, when the next election and, you know, he is, he is not only pro freedom, but also pro Bitcoin and in the United States, like again, I think it was Ben that you said this or someone said this, I would have never ever met coming from someone that has to cover the news like on a daily basis, I would have never have imagined in a million years that you literally have a, you know, because first it started with Ron DeSantis, then it was Vvek, you know, then it was RFK. It was like the, you know, the, the candidates that are not, they don't have a chance of winning. And they all came out and they said, look, I'm pro Bitcoin and TCBC. Ron DeSantis in Florida passed a law banning CBDCs in Florida. And then you had the orange man, like literally go. So there is like, and I was saying to some of you, there's a non zero chance that, you know, there will be a pro Bitcoin president in the White House, that percentage, I think Trump's leading by like 60% after that last debate. And you know, it's exactly what Katie said. He went into the libertarian conference and he was like, I will free Ross. I was with Ross's mom last week in Miami at mining disrupt in the backstage. And I went up to her and I'm like, like, what do you think about? And she, she couldn't believe it. Like, it's insane. Now, of course, Trump is a politician, he's pandering, he's just trying to get votes. But it's a testament to the power of our movement. Bitcoin doesn't need Trump. Trump needs Bitcoin in order to get elected, right? And that's how far we've come. And that's why I'm incredibly effing bullish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's astounding to see it happen. It's that it's a, it's, it's just very telling of, of how big, how much this has grown. And as, as freedom minded individual gravitate to Bitcoin, because they understand what it represents, the people in positions of power that rely on those with lots of capital will also begin to cater to those individuals and, and so we're kind of seeing the beginnings of a shifting of power where, you know, you, you will get rid of the cantillionaire circles because their money will be less and less useful over time and they won't be able to command power the way they once would just by, you know, suckling up to the, to the money printer teat, you're, you're no longer able to do that. You, there's, it's very much a, not, not to say that there can't be corruption and things like that. But a society based on proof of work, I think we'll have a much higher degree of, we'll say altruistic, maybe not altruistic, but like, mutual benefits for all, as opposed to the predatory wealth extraction that we have right now. For sure. Like the bureaucratic elite that benefit from the proximity of the money printer and then everyone else is like, shut up peasant, because that's like essentially how the current system works, you know, and I think Bitcoin is the, the silent protest, you know, it says, you know, you could do whatever you want, Mr. Joe Biden, but I'm going to put my Bitcoin in self custody after watching Ben's tutorials, right? So yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm. Can you very push? Yeah. I think it's interesting you say like it's the silent protest, but I think it's true. But they are paying attention, isn't that it? Isn't it interesting already? Yeah. Right? Yeah. And if you think about how many people, I mean, they talked about, you know, in the States, like 50 million people have crypto, I don't know what the actual stats are. But if we, if we think about like how many people really understand Bitcoin, right? I think that's also a fun question to, to ask, but I was at like a million tops. And then I met a guy who said like 10 K and I was like, okay, interesting. But imagine it's a million tops, they're paying attention when 1 million people understand a certain thing. And then think about how big that thing is, right? Yeah. That is just one of the most fascinating things for me as well. So yes, it's a silent protest, but in some way they're, it's making noise for sure. I mean, and I want to, I want to get to that. This comment kind of times in shout out to lightning goats, he literally has a YouTube channel of just a live stream of goats, and you can scan a QR code and it sends lightning and it will literally feed goats a lot. It's insane. Anyways. So if Trump wins, Bitcoiners will insist that he follows through, imagine what happens if he does it. So that's a very good topic, right? Because it's like, you never trust a politician and to brand what you were saying, right? It's like, clearly, this is a silent protest with people are paying attention. I think what you're starting to see is like the game's game theory take place. And I was, I was, I saw a, a post by David Bailey, CEO of Bitcoin Magazine and he's hosting a fundraiser from the Bitcoin industry in Nashville. And they're trying to out raise what Trump raised in Silicon Valley from the tech industry because at the end of the day, these politicians, what are they? They only care about the people. They're donor. They're donors. Bitcoin movement is becoming so powerful and influential that now we are becoming the donor class, which is insane, right? So it's like, yeah, they can ignore us, but then you won't get the sweet donations that we're going to give you. And then when Bitcoin gets to like half a million dollars, like, you know, I'm rambling, but I have to say this one last bit. Bernard Meester did a presentation at Bitcoin Commons in Austin, and it was like fiat ruins architecture, something along the lines, but there was one slide that like stuck out to me. And it was basically like laying out the percentage of high net worth individuals, sorry, ultra high net worth individual and ultra high net worth individuals, someone with a net worth of $50 million or more. If Bitcoin reaches $1 million per coin, the percentage of ultra high net worth individuals that are Bitcoiners is going to be 25 to 35% of that total population. Like, imagine how influential that is, right? So anyways, I'm saying, I feel like Katie, I know you said something in the chat, but I feel like that I feel like that's worthy of saying a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is the joke. This is why it's so entertaining. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, Katie in the background goes from plebs to donors. How did that happen? It's game theory. It's game theory. Yeah. Well, it's we changed our mind, you know, like, I think it's so interesting that there's so many like VC, Silicon Valley type people who are ultra into tech, and they are not seeing one of the biggest technological discoveries in our motherfucking life. You know, like, what are you doing? Like, you're smart and rich, but you're not changing your mind. It's baffling to me. And this is how it works. This is the game theory, like, we did it. It's almost amazing. My husband. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. It's almost amazing. My husband just met with two like VC type entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley. Both of them got into Bitcoin at like 2010 and 2013, because somebody told them. And like, it went up, it went down. They sold it like one and a half X from what they bought and never touched it again. It's like, okay, you were so early, but that was not enough for you to get the commitment you needed. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Unreal. So they don't understand what they're looking at. And again, like, I think, you know, as with even whether it's people like that where they're still chasing the fiat gains or it's people that think it's a total scam and or just, again, like high time preference people that think it's interesting, but don't want to put in the effort to kind of learn about it. Those people, again, will come to Bitcoin at the price that they deserve. And you need to have a certain type of mindset to not only be curious, but then spend the time to learn and get into Bitcoin and then stick it out through the ups and downs that takes a certain type of resolve to stick around through that. It can be rough, right? Like, it's not easy to hang around and have that conviction through a bear market. And, you know, at this point, like, again, the other day we're down at, like, 54k. It does. I mean, now those kind of swings back and forth and they don't phase after you're kind of been through a cycle or two, it kind of doesn't really phase you nearly as much. You're just kind of a bit numb to it and you recognize that if you have, and I've been saying this a lot lately, but if you have a good framework for how to live your life, which is providing value to others, spending less than you earn and then saving in money that nobody else can print out of nothing, then you're already in a great position and you don't really need to adjust anything when Bitcoin is going up and down. You can just continue living your life and it will continue to get considerably better over the long run. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's the hack. And that's the hack and the majority of the world has still not woken up to that reality, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Well, they'll get there. They'll get there. But... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Sorry, one thing. Yeah, Nicko said that there was also this article from, I think it was Financial Times or someone, like a woman who had an opinion piece who was like, "Oh no, the crypto people... What are they saying? What's it called?" Like, they have created a political lobby. Oh no. Exactly. No, but like, are you paying attention, like, what are you doing? You know, like, it's... These people are so short-sighted that I love what you said about, you know, once you have this long-term time frame, you are not bothered with all this, like, short-sightedness anymore, right? Like, all the people tweeting today, like, "Oh, why is the price going down? I'm gonna, like, explain and blah, blah, and we are just chilling." Yeah. Yeah. I blame the Germans. And Mt. Gox. Yeah. And Mt. Gox. Yeah. Right. Yeah. They finally did it. Yeah. This is bullish because it's destroying decade-old FUD. So as soon as that stuff gets dumped, it's like, there's just one more thing to get off the FUD list. Yep. Yeah. And then we'll just be back to the same old boiling in the ocean, but yes, right? I think they're gonna run out of things to say, "No, you know what the funny thing about the Germany selling Bitcoin is that they're literally separating money from state." Like, literally. The country that brought really good is selling the soundest money that has ever been in front of mankind. So yeah, the country that brought you, the hyperinflationary period of Weimar, is actively selling sound money for something that they can just create out of dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, man. This is here. Here is where you see the difference between ... It's so funny because sometimes when we, Nico, we talked about this on simply Bitcoin, right? Like we talked about the global game theory, and we probably all think the same about it, right? Like, it's so logical, the most rational thing for you to do as a country is to adopt Bitcoin for money that you can print yourself. Like, it sounds so simply stupid, but these people are not doing it, right? That they are selling. And that actually shows us the state of the states, right? Like, it's just incredible. These people, they don't think they did no research, nothing. They're just throwing it away. I think it's one of the biggest strategic mistakes ever to be made. I mean, give it, yeah, I would like, give it, like, I agree. It's also like it makes sense because it's like their ideologues and their ideologues in like their whole paper system. And like for them being ideologues and paper system, which is clearly inferior to Bitcoin, like they're just selling Bitcoin back to individuals, you know, and then by the time they wake up, like they have to buy it from individuals. I don't know about you guys, but like I'm not selling my Bitcoin to BlackRock, right? Or the US government or the German government, you know? So yeah, scraping back. Well, German government is selling El Salvador government is buying. Exactly. So I don't tell. Bullish on El Salvador. No, but it El Salvador, you know, the stuff with the prisoners. That's all. That's just not okay, man. Yeah. Yeah. But they'll, they'll, they'll, the Germans would say. Yeah. They'll, uh, word about you for a second. I am going to, I'm going to put a little bow on that topic and we're going to do another rotation because I want to get down to Katie and I want to queue you up with the same question. Why are you bullish, Katie? Well, I, I, I actually learned a lot of news from you guys right now because I am not spending that much time on Twitter and I'm like, okay, what happens with my gox? So that's really cool. Um, but I am still on day to day helping Bitcoiners obtain second citizenship. So I can talk from this perspective. Last week was our record on the amount of applications we've ever submitted for a second password. And it's obviously bullish because first of all, Bitcoiners can afford this now, right? The, the asset is appreciating 200 K password is okay for them. And the second citizenship used to be for like extremely wealthy coming in from like inherited money and stuff. Now Bitcoiners can totally be in this class and buying themselves citizenship, obtaining more freedom through this tool. That is cool. Um, and it's also shows the time in the market, like our cases are basically correlated with Bitcoin price. So when we see spike in amount of clients coming in, I know it's because Bitcoin is going off. Yeah. So definitely excited about that. And of course, it also shows that people are like, it is a sovereign individual thesis showing us that we will force the nation States to compete for our capital and fruits of our labor, right? Like when states can no longer acquire Bitcoin through purchasing it, they will have to acquire citizens with Bitcoin in order for those citizens to come in and spend the money there. And it is what some nations are doing include, including El Salvador, right? They want those Bitcoiners, they don't necessarily want like they just want you to come and bring your capital and leave your lifestyle there so that country will prosper. And this dynamic is really cool because now we force this free market onto the nation States. Um, so I'm bullish on that. That's super exciting. I love the again, seeing this thesis laid out in a book written in 96 come to fruition. Like the, the, again, the fact that it was effectively laid out throughout this book that, you know, in a digital age, when, when people can work wherever they want, when people can transact with others around the globe seamlessly that there would be this game theoretical migration of people to where they're treated best. Uh, I mean, of course that was going to happen, but to, to watch it, um, play out for, you know, in real time, but at a, an accelerated pace, as you said, you're, you're seeing your you guys are, are sending more and more people into this realm of, well, you know, let's get you a second citizenship here, like where you treated best. What are the most advantageous regions for yourself? And you know, Bitcoin plays a major role in that for the, especially for the individuals you're dealing with where they've through the fruits of their labor and the appreciation of a currency nobody can print. They're now able to look at this and say, well, you know, this country that I'm in is no longer benefiting me, um, in this lifestyle. And so why not look at, at other places? And at the same time having countries, you know, and it's still early, but having countries that are beginning to go, maybe we shouldn't incentivize those people to come here. Um, it's, it's exciting because it bodes well for a lot of, a lot of jurisdictions over time, uh, to, to compete for this. And I'm, I'm very excited to see, uh, the opportunities that are presented to Bitcoiners in the coming five to 10 years because it's right now, everybody tends to think, oh, else Salvador or, oh, you know, there's, there's a few very specific jurisdictions that, that people think of, but I think there's going to be, um, I think there's going to be some pretty decent competition in the market, uh, in, in relatively on, on a, on a, um, you know, when you really zoom out on a, on a timeframe, uh, kind of from a timeframe perspective, I think, you know, five or 10 years, there's, there's going to be a lot and that's going to be a, a stark contrast to how quickly things have moved in the past, in my opinion, I, I don't know if Katie would echo that or not. I feel like, uh, I'm a little bearish on a very short term investment migration, like capital based migration, the industry is like in a weird point and I feel like we're going to have some downtime, like five to eight years of not prosper, like, not to the extent that okay, new jurisdictions jumping on board every, every quarter, let's say, but then I know it will happen because right now we still have the old guard countries like Bram Nation, um, trying to push all those jurisdictions to shut down their citizenship by investment programs because they don't like that the access to Germany, like visa free access to Germany can be purchased for 200 K. But once, um, they run out of power, they're already selling their Bitcoin. They're not realizing how they're shooting themselves in the knee. Um, they won't be able to force those nations to shut down those programs anymore. They, they're losing the last powers they have. So then I believe like eight years plus we're going to see jurisdictions jumping on board for sure. Awesome. I love it. Niga, I don't know if you had anything to tag in there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, first of all, Katie, I love what you do. Um, I'm a huge fan of, you know, um, huge fan of, of, of the theory from the sovereign individual. And I think it's incredibly important and like I'm, I guess, blessed, uh, to be a natural, uh, naturalized American. So I already kind of had a second passport working on getting a third. Um, and, but that's just not just, just because of my, my family roots, right? But it's incredibly important just to have different nationalities because you know, you're going to go to where you're treated best, uh, fundamentally. And, and just to kind of like write down the game theory a little bit. Um, I, I see it playing out and it's fascinating. For example, one of, uh, Trump's slogans, uh, he's like, I want all the Bitcoin to be mined in America, right? And so essentially what he's doing is he's competing for the business of Bitcoin miners. And the ETF thing was very similar, right? Um, ETFs were launched in anywhere, uh, everywhere except the United States, including, uh, Hong Kong, which is really, you know, a China proxy, right? Um, uh, and, uh, you know, so it became, it became, uh, uh, strategically important for the US to launch an ETF as well to be a, to be competitive with one of its main, uh, you know, opponents these days or just China, right? At least on an economical level. Yeah. So far. Um, but to go, no, you go ahead for us because, um, but from an individual level, um, you know, I'm starting to see it and I agree with cake and I'm not really seeing it like on a, on a massive scale, but I do have some good friends like at least three or four and one's very well known. And he's a very, uh, powerful and influential position. And he just renounces us in the ship. He's like, this is not worth it, which is exactly what the, by the way, the book is already individual predicted is like the US citizenship is not the one to have. And he's like, look, I'm going to give this up. And I'm, I'm just going to move to this other country. And I'm like, let me ask you something. When we woke up the next day, did Hillary Clinton was she buy your bedside and wanted to kill you? And she's like, no, no, no, nothing happened. They even let me in. They gave me a visa. Um, but I think you're going to start to see an acceleration of that because it starts not to make sense, especially with the rise of the internet peer to peer communications. You can work anywhere around the world. And it's like, does it really make sense to pay, you know, uh, 39% of my income where, you know, I can move to Dubai or I can move to, you know, one of these, uh, jurisdictions where there's no taxes, like why am I doing this? And I think honestly, and this is my last point, I think they're starting to notice that, which is why I believe they made an example of Roger Verr, uh, because one of the, the reasons as to why they arrested him was he, even though he renounced the citizenship, which is just crazy. Uh, he didn't pay percentage of his capital gains. So they, they arrested him, spay, they arrested him in Spain and they're extra, I extraditing him back to the United States. And the reason for that is because, um, the reason for that is because, um, they're trying to make an example out of him. And I think they're trying to make an example out of him because they're scared that people are going to wake up and, uh, kind of follow in, um, following his footsteps. And I always read this on simply sessions. And I think it's very fitting. And Katie, I know you're going to appreciate it, but this is a, uh, a passage from the sovereign individual. It says locking, lacking their accustomed scope to tax inflate governments, even in traditionally civil countries will turn nasty as income tax becomes uncollectible, older and more arbitrary methods of extraction will resurface the ultimate form of withholding tax. The de facto or even overt hoss is taking. Well, we introduced by governments to desperate to prevent wealth from escaping beyond their reach. Unlucky individuals will find themselves singled out, held to ransom and almost medieval fashion businesses that offer the services that facilitate the realization of autonomy by, uh, by individuals will be subject to infiltration, sabotage and disruption. And that kind of makes sense. Cause like, remember the samurai wallet guy that is arrested. So here's the US government basically saying, no, we're still in control here. And, uh, but I think the, you know, I think things are cracking and I think we're making progress. And, uh, I think it's going to be a brave new world, uh, a decade from now, but I think it's going to be a world where, uh, individuals are going to have a lot more freedom than they have today. For sure. Let me ask you a question guys. Um, so you know how an old saying goes like when it comes to security, uh, the biggest, the weakest link sits between computer and an office chair, right? So like you figured out your Bitcoin security. Like the reason I called company plan B password is because the hedge against your jurisdictions coming after you personally is an attack on Bitcoin too. Right. So hatching against your jurisdiction and whatever policies they come up with is a big reason why people get second citizenship. And that's what I see the most for the US and Canadian clients. They're not willing to relocate just yet, but they do not trust their government. They want this hatch in their pocket so they can sleep better and they could get the fuck out. Sorry. Whenever possible. It's okay. Katie. You can say whatever the fuck you want. It's for sure. It's insurance. And, and, and I forget where what I forget where I read this. I don't think it came from the book, but it was basically like, you know how you see this giant migration of people like illegal. I hate using that word, but let's say this giant migration of people coming from the southern border to United States without papers. Um, but basically where I read this and it was so strong, I was like, what we'll see is people like they'll try to keep you in, like Berlin wall type of thing. And you'll actually see people like leaving from the United States across the border to Mexico just to escape because it just no longer makes sense. Right. Um, and, and one of the passages from, from that quote that I read, which is they were talking about taxation, but I don't think it's only income tax that governments are going to really need. They really need the direct tax of inflation. And I think Bitcoin really breaks that. Um, oh, that's pulling up the mandibles, which is like the, like, the individual was like, what's going to happen? The mandibles is the story. Yeah, the mandibles. I'm, I'm channeling my channeling, my intro del, but the mandibles was like, it's, you read through it and you're like, Oh God, is this coming? Is this this? Exactly. And it's basically this family, uh, in the US, uh, in it, the timeline is from the year 2029 to 2047. And it's like the collapse of this wealthy family, uh, through US hyperinflation and like how the US handles it and, uh, and like the fracturing of the US and Nevada becomes like this free state where, um, people escape to and, uh, but everybody's afraid to go there because they think they've, they've got like chips in their head. They're going to like explode. And it's just like everybody is getting psyoped and it's crazy. Uh, it's super interesting and, uh, and, and yeah, it's like this weird dystopian, uh, it's very dark. I found like, it was, I found it very interesting, but the whole time you're like, Oh, that's rough. It's, it's, uh, it's an interesting but, uh, hard read, I think. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, I, and I remember that, and I'm sure you, you listened to this. You remember the episode that the author did with Odell? Yeah. Yeah. It was so good. Yeah. It was good. Yeah. And, and, uh, I, I, I quite, her name's, uh, Lionel Shriver and, uh, and yeah, she's, she's fantastic. She's not, I don't, I don't know how she's not original. Like she's still skeptical Bitcoin, which is so weird because like that's the solution, right? Yeah. Bitcoin is mentioned passingly in the book of like, Oh, like we all remember what happened to Bitcoin, like as if it wasn't a thing anymore. But you also, she admittedly said that she didn't really know much about it when she like wrote it. And, uh, I know that Odell is, uh, you know, he, he did his best to Orangeville and maybe he planted a seed there somewhere. But, uh, you know, if anybody to get it, I would love for her to get it because, uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, they have an exit tax in Canada already, right? They also are introducing one in my country actually. Exactly. They know, they know what's going on. Yeah. But back to the point about how many people are aware of this, not that many people, not that many people are thinking about this, but they, they are paying attention, right? And I saw a comment in the chat. I don't know if they are serious or like, uh, they said like they want power to control, they have cards and they will play them. I see so many of these comments also, right? But I don't think, no, but I, I, sometimes it's like, uh, is it against Bitcoiners, uh, you know, us talking about how we're going to fix things? And then this is like a negative comment or is it just sharing like, yeah, the government sucks or something? I don't know. But what I want to say is more like this illustrates how big the battle is, right? Like this, this is the level that we're battling at. Like they're trying to keep people in the country. Why to work, to pay taxes, to spend it on stuff, you don't want them to spend it on or, or pay, you know, interest on debt that, you know, you never got any, any value from, uh, basically. And to go back to this earlier point about, I have a little fantasy. I think it's a fantasy, but I think there's going to be a person or there's going to be people that are being held hostage, like Nico just said, right? Or, you know, the IRS is suing them and the IRS is saying like, you have, you know, millions in Bitcoin and you have to pay. And then this person is like, no, I had a voting accident. I don't have access. Yeah, you do have it, right? And then, you know, they're going to go to court, you know, in some countries, someone is going to go to court where a government agency wants to compel them to write down or say their, their, their seed phrase. And, and they will be like, yeah, I don't know. I don't have it. But, you know, so there's going to be a president set somewhere with a case like that. And to connect it to the point of the network state, this is what we are going to blow up with millions of people, right? We are going to share the story behind this case and the cases, they want this person to pay taxes to force them. And if you still think that your taxes are, you know, voluntarily think again, right? And so that is kind of like my fantasy about this, because I think it's, it should, it's going to happen. You know, something like this is going to happen. And that will be an opportunity for us to showcase the power of Bitcoin, I think. Yeah, I there's a, there's a message in the, in the chat here that I just wanted to bring up because it's pretty wild. I left Billy said I left South Africa to Canada in 2016. And now they want to tax expats that have already left South Africa. Like a retro act. Holy crap. Can you imagine like, are they going to pick you up? Like, what are, what do they want to do? Like, how, how does this work? It's, it's, I mean, that that's like, that's what the paths are saying, is that like, I think that we're reaching like this, like, inflection point in human history where, like, the ability for you to write down 12 words and just like, store vast sums of wealth in your mind and then vote with your feet, if need be, completely changes the power dynamics between individuals and the state. And I don't think they're prepared for that. And like, look at how they're reacting to the disintermediation of information, like, mass scale peer to peer communications via social media. Like, they, and they try to censor it. They'll like, you know, like, Elon's fascist, like, like, everything in the book, they'll try it. They'll, they'll try to throw at it. I don't think governments are prepared. Like, I don't think governments are prepared for the internet. I think that they were always hoping that there was going to be a handful of intermediaries of which they can co-opt, like information intermediaries and middlemen and information, money intermediaries and middlemen. And they always hope, like, if we can co-opt these, we can control everybody. That's how they got away with the 6102 order. And then all of a sudden, there's peer to peer decentralization. And they're like, I don't know what to do. And I think over the long term, I think that's a forcing function. I think, I completely agree with you, Katie. I think it, it will create, I don't know, and I don't, I don't think in the near future. But in the long term, I think it'll create a more like customer business type of relationship between the individual and the state rather than pay your taxes or going to put you in a box, bro. Because it's kind of like a mafia cartel type relationship today. It's crazy to me that governments feel entitled. Like, it's like, oh, we're entitled to half of your wealth if you leave the cut. Like, that is nuts. And they're swandering it. It's like they don't even have the fiscal discipline themselves. Yeah. I mean, go ahead, go ahead, Katie. Like, they have monopoly over you. That's why they can do all the things. But once you can diversify, once you have multiple competitors that you can choose from, like, they lose this monopoly over you on this free market of nation states. And that is, that is what we want to see. And you know, what, what is really cool, we're talking about this power, hungry, authoritarian state. But we're not dovers at all. We're so happy because we have this orange, beautiful thing. And we are very bullish on the future too. Instead of being that like, oh my god, my government is going to come up here. All of us, we're doomed. No, we, we know the future is orange. Like, it's beautiful. 100%. I just, uh, on the topic here, there's a guy that's always in the chat. And, uh, I love the contrast between his username and some of the deep things that he says. So, uh, he outlines it very well. His name is, uh, Pood in the cereal. But he's very, very eloquent in saying countries are walled gardens. They prefer friction to keep you in their ecosystem. Bitcoin forces countries to compete on features and interdisciplinary ideas. So, as usual, Pood in the cereal dropping bombs in there. But, uh, you know, I will, I will steal that as a tweet. Thank you. I saw the other comment with my mind on my money. I'm on my mind. That's a great one. That's a great one. So ahead of his time with my mind on my money, my money on my mind. Amazing. I love it. Um, all right. So, uh, I'm going to, uh, put a bow on that topic as well. Katie, thank you for bringing in the, uh, the whole sovereign individual thread here. I'm very bullish on hearing that you guys are continuing to, uh, to do business and, uh, and see it accelerate over time. It is needed and, uh, you will have, you have a whole world of customers coming your way. So, uh, uh, be ready, I think. Um, but with that, we're going to do a rotation. We're going to go for our final reason for being bullish and I'm going to toss it straight to you, man. Nico, why are you bullish? I'm bullish on you, Ben. Um, I'm bullish on Ben, but I'm, I'm bullish on all you guys and bullish on anyone who's on a, on a big coin standard. Uh, but no, we've hit so many rounds. We've hit the political, uh, the political discussion, the mind buyer spreading, the, uh, you know, sovereign individual thesis. Uh, so I'm going to take a different approach and I'm going to be bullish on the price. Why am I bullish on the price? Well, um, you know, the ETF got approved, uh, January 10th of 2024, exactly 15 years later than, uh, how Finney's famous, uh, uh, tweet running Bitcoin, January 9th, uh, January 10th, 29, uh, 2009. Well, I can't believe I remembered that off the top of my head, but that's because, uh, I used that to moderate a panel a couple of days ago. Um, but, uh, but the ETF got approved and in the eyes of Wall Street, Bitcoin got legitimized. You have the CEO and chairman of the world's largest asset manager in the world, Larry Fink, literally using the Bitcoin talking points on the legacy, uh, corporate media. You have Michael Saylor's Bitcoin strategy completely vindicated. Uh, the last two weeks or so, you're seeing little hints of Michael Dell. Michael Dell was a significantly richer billionaire than, uh, Michael Saylor. I don't know what it is about the Michaels, uh, but, uh, you know, he dropped some Bitcoin memes. Uh, he ran a poll the other day. So potentially, you know, Dell technology is a massive computer significantly bigger than Michael, the micro strategy, potentially following in Michael Saylor's footsteps on the nation state level. You have, uh, Nain Boukele, also completely vindicated. He made the country's reserves public. Okay. He literally put, uh, El Salvador's Bitcoin address where, you know, that's where the reserves are. He made it public for the world to see and anyone could verify it. And what are the, what's like the, uh, what are the, you know, what are the unintended consequences of that? Well, it makes it very difficult for a politician to take some off the top now that it's on a public ledger. Uh, where's the golden Fort Knox, bro? We haven't seen a picture of it since 1974. Is the gold really there? So any country that's, you know, criticizing El Salvador, say, hey, show us the gold, you know, but they don't feel like they have a necessity to do that. So on all fronts, on the country level, you know, on an institutional level, on a public company level, on an individual level, Bitcoin just stays winning. And I think that's just a testament of Bitcoin's superior incentives compared to everything else. And I think that is going to lead into, you know, I'm going to get a little bullish because this is why we bullish. I think that's going to lead into an incredible, uh, you know, bull market this cycle. I think we're about halfway through. We're consolidating during the summer, just like it happened in the previous cycles. Uh, everyone's thinking Bitcoin's going to zero. And I think we're going to have a great 20, 25, but unlike, you know, 2018, we're one of the coping mechanisms that we all told each other was like, the institutions are coming. Like, no, uh, the institutions are here. Um, and, uh, there's tremendous amount of interest. Uh, you also heard, uh, the Wisconsin, Wisconsin pension fund by a hundred and fifty million dollars of exposure to Bitcoin via the ETFs, right? You have several large banks. I believe the second largest bank in, in Europe, PNB, Perivos, uh, bought exposure to Bitcoin via the ETF, right? So it, like this trend is not stopping. And, uh, I think that this cycle, this bull cycle is going to be the, the cycle of institutions and the enormous amount of money that's behind that. And I got to say, any, any, um, I think we're reaching a point where if you're an asset manager and you're not, uh, telling your client to at least have a 1% to 3% allocation to Bitcoin, you're doing a disservice to them. You're hurting them. I think it's something of a necessity at this point. There's so many companies, including Dell that have, uh, you know, Bitcoin on, uh, sorry, no, they have, uh, they have giant cash reserves. And that's like them sitting on melting ice cubes, like just to, you know, compensate, they can literally just put one to two, one, maybe 5% of those cash reserves into something like Bitcoin. And it will literally make up for the purchasing power that they lose, uh, via the debasement of currency, right? So so many things to be bullish about, but specifically, I'm really excited about the end of 2024, 2025 for all the, uh, the reasons I lined out. Uh, you know, I think this is going to be an epic bull market. I think people have a little bit of PTSD because of the previous bull market. I think people, you know, we're expecting more the China ban happen FTX. Uh, it seems like all the planets and stars are aligning for, uh, some potential explosive price action. But to me, it doesn't matter because one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin and, you know, I just stay humble, stack, sat, stay solvent, make some content for you guys, make some content with Ben, sit back, enjoy the new baby. Katie, and I know you're enjoying your family as well. And it's just, it's good to be a Bitcoiner. It's a cheat code to life, man. Yeah. We all, we all am bullish. Yeah. I love it. We all can, uh, we all can afford to, uh, have a little bit more family time as time goes on. But I'll, I'll let, uh, Bram and Katie chime in on anything you said first before I rant on anything. So either of you, if you want to dive in. Yeah. I, I, I love what you said. For me, Bitcoin is now so entertaining, you know, like, I think a few years ago, I read a tweet. I don't know who it was by, but, you know, I always saw Bitcoin as an experiment. It's either zero or, or everything, right? Like, you know, the black hole value or how people say that. And there was a tweet by someone who said, you know, if you even remotely think Bitcoin is going to be something, you have to get a seat in the stadium. And that's one of the moments where I thought, okay, I have to move. But now we are sitting in the stadium. We are, we are looking at this, uh, play out, right? And we go from 74,000 to 54 to whatever. Like, it doesn't really matter. But we're just observing slowly how some people get it and some people don't. And I think Nico, what you said about Michael Dell, like, I, I think he's going to do it. Um, I just, I, I, I really think he's gonna, he's gonna do it. And it's just legendary. Like, what a signal, right? For, for someone of that stature to, to get to that point and, and do it. Um, and I think it's, it's gonna melt some minds because there are serious people who take Michael Dell seriously, but they probably hate Bitcoin. And that is just something that is very entertaining for me. There's a good quote. Um, last, uh, I, I, a couple of weeks ago, I had on a guy, his name is Scott Deedles and he runs a company called Block Rewards, but he was referring to Michael Dell. And he was like, it seems like each, uh, Bitcoin, Epoch Bitcoin price will go up by orders of Michael. No, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see if that comes through. Katie, I'll toss it to you. Uh, do you have anything that you wanted to chime in on what Nico was saying? Yeah. Um, and what Brian was saying too, I feel like I'm at the stage where I'm quietly sitting in the stadium. Like when I first got into Bitcoin, just like I mentioned, I had to try every lightning little thing. I had to participate. I had to tweet every 20 seconds, something about Bitcoin. And now I am sitting back in the stadium and enjoying my life. I just had my second baby. And Bitcoin just became this base of my life in terms of principles, in terms of values. And it's just a good core, like roots of our family in a way. And then on top of Bitcoin principles, we're building our family, building future for our kids and I'm bullish. That's awesome. I love to hear it. Um, well, uh, what I'd like to do here is, uh, as we round out, uh, the end of each episode, I like to go around, uh, the panel one last time and, um, and give, uh, let people give any final thoughts they may have, but also a recommendation. And this is one of my favorite parts of the show. Um, but pointing people that are watching the show towards something that you think they will find useful. And that could take any form. It could just be as simple as a piece of life advice that you wish you had known earlier, but it might take the form of, Oh, go watch this video or check out this pod or read this book, or maybe try this app or this device. It could really be anything, but anything that you think would be useful for an individual to check out. So we're going to do that in just a minute. Um, but before we do, uh, I'm going to toss out, uh, a shout out to our last two sponsors here. So I'll let, uh, Graham and Katie and Nico kind of stew on that for a second before I put them on the spot. So we'll be back in less than a minute. So we'll see you guys in just a second. Tom allows you to borrow against your Bitcoin in a non-custodial way. Collateral is held in a three of four distributed multi-sig with trusted parties. It provides institutional liquidity providers, loan periods of up to five years with flexible conditions and the best rates. And best of all, no re-hypovocation of your funds. If you want to check them out today, head over to debify.com or hit the link in the show notes down below. Bitcoin Lightning Wallet built with simplicity in mind, send and receive with ease, claim your own lightning address, shop your favorite gift cards and even earn rewards when you spend. Head over to speed.app to download the app on your mobile or desktop today and be sure to use code BTC sessions 10 to get 5,000 SaaS for free and the chance to win even more. All right. And we are back in. We're going to, uh, go around and do some of our final thoughts recommendations. I, uh, in terms of my final thoughts, I think what I'm, I'm, uh, continuously seeing here is that, uh, to a degree, um, society is now being, uh, more able to be reformed by the individual rather than the elite at the top. And we're starting to see more bottom up control instead of top down. And, you know, Bitcoin is one of those tools along with the internet and the ability to communicate and transact globally without permission. That's contributing to that. And, uh, and I love to see it. And, um, and so I guess, uh, you know, final thoughts here for individuals, just take hold of that, see what tools are available to you and always continue to level up. Um, and in terms of recommendations, since we're on the topic and since, uh, Germany is actively dumping sats, uh, with history such as they've had, uh, I recommend people pull up this and check out this book that I held up earlier. It's called When Money Dies. Uh, the nightmare of deficit spending devaluation and hyperinflation in Weimar Germany. Uh, it's very interesting, um, kind of going through everything that happened then. And most the thing that stood out most to me was the behaviors of the people living through it, as well as the people that were creating the problem at the top being completely blind to what was actually going on. It's like they had no idea. And, and we see flavors of it today as governments gaslight you into thinking that they're deficit spending and, uh, you know, inflation of currency units are not the reasons that we're experiencing what we're experiencing. And it's like they're, they'll lie in your face since they were going to fix it by spending more money. We're covering that on the show the other day, uh, and at, at the rodeo we're talking about, um, you know, tweets from politicians saying like, we're going to make things affordable, more affordable by spending more money on government programs. And it's like the, the absolute inverse of what you want to be doing is blowing more money through government inefficiency. And yet that's what they propose. And that's what people clamor for as well. And so, you know, if I feel like if everybody gave this a read in society, there'd be a lot more people being like, no, no, no, no, let's not go down that path. But that's the path that, uh, that a lot of people want to go down. So check out when money dies, very, very interesting read. And, uh, you will see echoes of it in society today, everywhere. Um, Nico, I'll ask you any final thoughts and recommendations before we move on. Yeah, man. I mean, so, uh, it's my eighth year in Bitcoin, uh, next year's gonna be my ninth. And I, you know, I learned so many things, so many painful lessons along the way. And I wish someone told me from the beginning, um, what I'm going to tell everyone now, which is, uh, make sure you have more Bitcoin than the day before everything else's noise. Um, take self custody of your Bitcoin. Like, that's it. Um, it can, it, what I described is incredibly simple, but going through it is incredibly difficult. Emotionally, spiritually, you'll change as a person because of it. Um, I couldn't grow a facial hair. Now I can. Um, right. Um, so, you know, I, I say that semi-jokingly, but the point is, and there's this very famous meme of like, you know, like the old guy, he's like, yeah, I'm a 25 year old that I've been, you know, it's like an 80-year-old guy. And it's like, I'm 25, but I've been a year in Bitcoin and Bitcoin time, you know, time flies. It goes extremely quickly. Um, you know, this is the separation of money in state. After all, the fourth turning, this is a pivotal moment in human history. The internet has disintermediated information and it's disintermediating money. And, uh, you got to protect yourself. And the way that you protect yourself, one of the best ways is by protecting your wealth, your energy, your time, and you do that via Bitcoin. So yeah, if, uh, if you're the TLDR, though, if you take one little tidbit about what I just said is, uh, make sure you have more Bitcoin than the day before. And that's it. If you do that for four years, you're good. If you do that for eight, you're going to be really, really good. That's my advice. I love it. I love it. Awesome. We'll, we'll, uh, rotate over to Bram Next. Bram, any final thoughts and recommendations? Yeah. What I really love, like what clicked for me was, you know, when you think about the finite time that we have on earth and the energy you expand within that time, you know, that's what they call human, the human productivity. And so, if you expand your time and your finite time and energy in that finite time to get a reward, why would you get a reward that can be infinitely created, right? Like that, that just sounds like the dumbest trade ever. And I think once I got to that thought, I was like, yeah, this is why I should store the rewards that I get, the monetary energy I get into, into Bitcoin. But what actually got me there was a totally non related, uh, not related to Bitcoin podcast, which I want to share. And I'll, I'll put it in the chat as well, but it's called, it's a, it's on the Aubrey Marcus YouTube channel. It's called The Shocking Truths about our energy crisis with Nate Hagan's. I think I only watched half of that. But then something clicked because Nate is like an energy expert and he explains, you know, if you look outside or in front of you or wherever, like everything you see costs energy to create or maintain, right? And so some labor went into that. Or even when you have like matchsticks or something, like there was a tree that grew with energy from the sun and the sun was packaged, you know, like in the tree and then the match sticks away, et cetera. But like how he talks about energy that really made it click for me in, in the terms of like how Bitcoin is the best way to store your energy, the productivity. And so that's something that I really wanted to share. I'm gonna see if I can put that. All right, that sounds good. Oh, uh, when I see it, I will, or if you're putting on YouTube, even better on Twitter, I think it will. But either way, if you tweeted out as well, there we go. Yeah, there it is. Um, so yeah, but if you tweeted out as well, uh, then and give me a tag, I'll give that a retweet and we'll, uh, people can check it out. That's awesome. Um, and with that, I'll toss it down to Katie as well. Katie, any final thoughts and recommendations? Yeah, um, staying on topic of being a mom, et cetera. Um, you know how in Bitcoin, we often talk about inheritance issues because we're not sure how to set up this inheritance thing. So my husband just built this beautiful thanks and maybe somebody wants to consider it for themselves. So I just want to throw it out there. Um, you can, it's a four out of four multisig. And it drops one signature every having. So in four years, it becomes three out of four. In eight years, it becomes two out of four and then one out of four. And it never goes down from that. And it's like, if you want to make sure your loved ones get some money, but also they don't sell right away. So it's like a forced hodl. So even if you die today, um, 16 years from now, you're somebody I loved one will be able to get those fonts in this scenario. They did force hodl and they do have access to that without being at risk for you right now. So what he told me I was like, Oh my God, this is so simple and brilliant. Um, so maybe some of the, some people in the audience want to consider it too. Oh, yeah, that's awesome. I don't know where to find it. So this is right up my, I love this type of stuff. And, and some of the stuff that's being done with mini script in, uh, multi-sig is just fantastic. There's so much programmability there. And as you're saying, like a, uh, gradually deprecated multi-sig where like the threshold of, of keys required over time diminishes, like there's, you know, that's such a, a nice way of keeping it super secure. But if you really start to screw up and lose things, then it's just a matter of time before you have access. I think that's fantastic. And it also prevents, uh, people from accessing things, uh, earlier than they should. And there's, there's so many cool things you can do with a combination of, uh, you know, multi-sig, um, mini scripts, time locks, all these different tools that we're starting to see more and more of. Uh, I love it. So I'm, I'm super stoked about that. And I think, uh, people should, uh, dive into that realm and at least learn the tools, um, and, and begin to head down that road. So, um, but with that, uh, we are going to round out here, uh, everybody that's watching also, please do, uh, uh, stick around for a moment because me and Nico are going to do a giveaway after we bid a do to our, our, our guests here. But, um, this was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. Graham, you are an absolute champion for staying up to what I believe is 130 in the morning for you right now. Correct. So thank you for doing it. Again, we're trying to make it happen over the past few weeks and, uh, and, uh, and here we are. So I really appreciate it and, uh, and Katie to you as well. Thank you for, uh, I know that we had some juggling to do and, uh, scheduling and stuff like that. And I think Don kept on being like, come on then get your shit together. We got to figure out of time. Uh, so anyways, Katie, thank you so much for being here as well. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, uh, to both of you, uh, really appreciated the conversation. It was fantastic. And, uh, of course you both are welcome back anytime. Have a fantastic weekend. You too, guys. Thanks so much. Here's guys. Cheers. Thank you. All right. And everybody stick around. Here's what we're doing. We're going to do a giveaway. Do you want to, do you want to throw a coin in the well? Yeah. I think we should do that. Again, everybody that tuned in, thank you very much. I was looking on a combination of a combination of X and YouTube and, uh, and a few other things. And, you know, we had a good 3000 plus people come and show with us. Yeah. Boom. So thank you guys. Uh, but we're going to pull up, uh, the well. We're going to, uh, we're going to throw a coin in the well. If you haven't done this before, get your lightning wallets ready, my friends. We're going to see who's, who's quick enough to make it happen. Uh, Nico, do you want to, do you want to explain a little bit about what's, what's going on here, what we're doing? Yeah, absolutely. Bitcoin Wells, the sponsor of me and Ben, they're the best place to build your automatic self custody Bitcoin stack. And every time you buy Bitcoin on Bitcoin, well, you earn yourself Bitcoin well points and you can use those points. You could redeem those points and, uh, you can put them towards the Bitcoin wishing well. So, uh, in your Bitcoin well dashboard, if you're an existing client, uh, again, every time you buy Bitcoin on Bitcoin, well, you earn these points. Eventually you can redeem them. If you have enough, it costs you about 500. And what that allows you to do is you can toss a coin into the Bitcoin wishing well for an opportunity to win up to 1 million Satoshi's in the coin. So we're going to toss a coin into the wishing well, we're going to leave the QR code up on screen. And the first person to scan it is going to get those free Sats. It could be a million Satoshi's. So get ready. Here we go. All right, here it goes. Oh, we got 500 Sats. So you got to get your lightning wallet ready. You got to scan that. And it will ask you if you'd like to redeem 500 Sats and it will go right into your own wallet. We do this on the regular, uh, and we will definitely continue to be doing it, uh, through our live shows, both on Thursdays and, uh, and I'm going to try and remember to do it on the wire end of wire. We bullish because those that stick around to the end of the show deserve some Sats. Exactly. That's, that's a really good point. Yeah. It's a really good point. Yeah. Anybody who sticks around. So, um, so hopefully you guys are able to, uh, get that scanned. If you do end up sniping those Sats, please do, uh, let me know in the chat or give a tweet later. Uh, if you can, tag, tag Bitcoin well as well and let them know that you appreciate the additional Sats. That'd be fantastic. Um, but with that, uh, before I we log off here, uh, I also, uh, would like to let you guys know, uh, where, uh, I'm going to be over the next little bit. I'm going to be doing some traveling. You, you're going to be heading home in, uh, a day, day and a half here. Thank Christ. Yeah. Time to get home. I've, I've been traveling nonstop for you. You have, you have two though. Yeah. It's been, you know, burned out. I'm a little bit, I'm going to be home for the month. So, um, it'll be good. Oh, you gotta, you get a month. Okay. That's nice. I get a month. I get a month. So I'm going to be jumping around though. Uh, we're doing a little family road trip. Um, doing a meetup in Vancouver, uh, on the weekend of the 10th and 11th. So if you're in the Vancouver area, keep your eyes out. Uh, my buddy, Fussler, who puts on, uh, the BTC van, events is going to do a bit of a meetup. So keep an eye out. I will be there. Um, but also, uh, end of August, very excited for this. I'm heading out to Baltic Honey Badger in Riga. That's awesome. So if you are a Europe bound, or if you're in Europe, then, uh, uh, Riga is such an awesome event. Baltic Honey Badger, they do such a good job. It's a smaller, more intimate and super cypherpunk. All the Bitcoin OGs love this one. So, uh, yeah, head up to Riga, the Baltic Honey Badger.com. You can use go BTC sessions and you get a discount on your ticket, uh, which is awesome. And then I just figured this out where I'm going. Do you want to know where I'm going? I want to know where you go. I'm going to, uh, Lagano plan B for him. I've never been Lagana, Switzerland. I haven't been either. I haven't been to Riga. You're doing all the Euro conferences, man. I mean, Europe's Europe's been good. I feel like I've only done the States. I got to change it up next year, I guess. Yeah. So I'm, I'm going to be out in Lagano, uh, for the first time, uh, near the end of, uh, end of October. And so I'm very excited to be there. Uh, we just kind of figured out some stuff in the background. Uh, I don't know. They probably haven't announced it yet. So I probably just spoiled the hell out of it. But, uh, and I think there might be a code. Uh, odds are, if there's a code, it is simply BTC sessions as it is everywhere. So you should probably just try using BTC sessions. You mean BTC sessions? Yes. You said simply BTC sessions. Oh, now it's simply BTC sessions as in the code is very simple. And it is BTC sessions. And I have been spending too much time. I think so. Yes. Uh, but, uh, yeah, if you're heading to Plan B or if you're heading to Baltic honey badger, make sure, uh, you snag those tickets early. Um, it's going to be a good time. Uh, and then yeah, we're going to round out here. I will just say, uh, Bitcoin mentor is growing. We just launched our Australia leg, uh, Bitcoin mentor Australia. Uh, we're also doing some work. Um, uh, bull Bitcoin reached out to us and, uh, and asked if they could, uh, help funnel, uh, some people that need education our way and we were happy to oblige. Uh, but if you're sorting through the tutorials on the channel and, uh, they're helping, but you need some extra hand holding, then reach out to my team over at Bitcoin mentor.io. They will help you through everything, whether it be hot wallets, cold wallets, multi-sig, running a node, lightning, all the layer twos, all of that. You can check them out over at Bitcoin mentor.io and you can book a session today. Uh, anyways, with that, we're going to round it out. Um, I hope you guys have a wonderful day or evening wherever you may be. Uh, I'm Ben. This is Nico and this has been your simply, simply take over of why we bought this. This has been your daily, simply session take over. Uh, okay. Bye. See you guys later. [Music] [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]