In this podcast, we have a chat with Sam Munsie from the Australian Meat Industry Council. In this conversation, we chat about the importance of free trade for the meat industry and a whole lot more.
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It's the egg watch a show, it's the egg watch a show. It's the egg watch a show. Hi, I'm Sam Unzi from the Australian Meat Industry Council and joining the egg watches. Short and sharp. Short and sharp, straight to the point. Right, you can tell when you've got a business professional on Andrew. They just go straight to it. Well, that's basically just every single person that comes in the podcast apart from us. I guess a bonus, I guess you could call us a bonus one. It was one we weren't expecting to do this podcast, but we managed to drag Sam on the podcast last minute just before Christmas. That's it. We chose, we were a nimble, a nimble organization, Andrew, quick to respond. But to turn around, you know, you know, because usually we put about a week or two's preparation into every podcast we do. So sometimes, sometimes months, you know, we spend a lot of time creating scripts and thinking about what we're going to talk about and practicing. We practice to try and make sure that we look like we haven't done any preparation. So I cannot go into this podcast. Gonna be right because we haven't had the required amount of preparation. Oh, well, you wouldn't guess that you guys are not being effective at showing that you make it look so natural. So yeah, but jumping in and doing a bit for Amy. But we got any first of all, we got to go through a normal sort of routine. Are there any complaints, criticisms or compliments? No, not since the last one. I just, I'd still, I know I said in the last one too, but I would still remind people that are somewhat musically inclined to send in their versions of the eggwatches tune and you don't remind them to the, they don't have to be any good at singing or playing an instrument because the current guy that has recorded for us is rubbish. Anyway, right? So it just could be slightly better than him. Right, I've got one complaint, Matthew. Have you? It is, you're doing that again, put your finger over your mouth and it was the other side. It doesn't matter if you put your finger over your mouth. Look, what's going to happen? So just keep your hands on your hands on the desk. OK. And show you head up before when you're at school, above the desk. Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty much it in terms of complaints, Chris. I had one complaint, Martin Murray, who's currently going back for the back call, that catalog, and looking for a waste of cancelers, apparently, he's gone through that during the Christmas break. I want to catch us out, but we have been consistently of the same view, the whole way through, quite and lovely. That's it. All right, Sam, give us a bit. You said you're from Aimek, but give us a quick rundown of exactly what your role is there and maybe for those that don't know, who's Aimek? Oh, yeah, look, I know it's a highly agricultural, educated audience. You guys have so, but I'll assume a bit of information for sure. But look, Aimek is the Australian Meat Industry Council. We're the peak body that represent the post-farmgate meat industry here in Australia. So our membership, we're a membership-based organization that cuts across all of those post-farmgate meat industries. So that goes from local independent retail butchers, Australian small goods and manufacturers and processes all the way through to Australia's advertised being the meat processes and exporters in the country. So, look, we cover a wide-range gamut there and our function is essentially to represent the broader industry and to an advocacy piece, whether that's working with government and another industry stakeholders and make sure that our voice is heard in Canberra and internationally, but also, and probably where my role comes in is do a lot of work on the technical side to particularly make sure that we have access to all of our international markets, as you guys will be very familiar, 70 to 80%, depending on the year of our meat is exported. That export piece is a critical, critical role for us. So there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes and it's not by accident. It's Australian Meat Industry has access. We trade to over 100 countries around the world. There's a lot of work that goes into that and Aimek works pretty hard with our partners in government and our members in industry to keep those doors open. And so that means as part of your role, you'd be spending a lot of time off shore, I presume, and on some kind of a, I was going to say, junket business. Don't say junket. It's never a junket. No, no, no, no, I don't, and I don't, to be honest with you. So, look, the bulk of my role is, so I'm the general major of trade and technical affairs of Aimek. So that most of it is just making sure that the meat that our members need and the industry needs is coming in and out of the country. So while the export piece is probably a little bit better known, there is a bit of an import piece we provide input into consultations that the government runs to make sure that the meat coming into the country is meeting our biosecurity standards and there's appropriate under our world trade obligations. But on the export side of the house, it's a lot of work, particularly with the Department of Agriculture, Fisher, and the Forestry who had the principal lead in those technical negotiations, but certainly, we, in a number of countries, there's a role, there's a government to government level of negotiation, there's business, commercial dealings between customers and clients, but there's certainly a role for the industry association to work with industry associations in there in the middle. And I think some markets such as China, which is why we were there earlier in the year, that there's a critical role for us there. So there is occasional travel to markets where it's required that largely we let's, we focus on getting the technical stuff done behind the scenes here. We'll come back to that. We have got to do our psychological test of you. So obviously, you're not the first staff member from Epic that we've had on the podcast. And so we've always, as part of the outsourcing of the industry to episode three struck, I've watched was a big part of our income is through psychological testing, we're not qualified, but we're cheap. The guess is the general consensus. Perfect. So we're going to give you five words or statements. No, that's not a five there. It's six. No, no, it's six. It's six. I was just just just just, you know, making sure all just you just, you know, that's called it's called shrinkflation. So you know, like, one, yeah, like, you know, the marsh bars now the size of a pinky instead of a, instead of a fist. And I'm, I'm firing up the computer at the moment to keep track of all the answers. That means it's sharp in this pencil. Excellent. There you go. Yeah, I'm just having the pencil. There we go. All right. Right. So we're going to give you a word or phrase and you tell us the first thing that comes to mind. It might seem like the questions are odd, but they are there for a psychological purpose. And they're not just for entertaining Matt and I. Perfect. All right. I'll go first, hey, free trade agreement. Uh, hugely beneficial. Favorite Christmas meal. And Australian Australian small boots hand for sure. They said that said that said that they're making sure it was an Australian product, not the imported product that you mentioned just a while ago. If it's on the bonus, some of the best, some of the best habs in Australia, they've been imported for, but they're certainly a mix. But as long as it's made here from Australian small goods, I'll be into it. Again, it's got a ball. And it's one of her own. You might go, I'm very told us that one. Um, what about speaking of kind of small, good items? What about black pudding? All rising is the word I'll do is throw it. God, that's actually clever answer that one. Because he's not really, he's not telling us really what he still tells us. But as, as trend psychologists would like to actually expand upon your question. So please expand. Oh, look, I, I, I'm very open to and enjoy a bit of a black pudding. I just find it's hard to get good quality stuff out here at the moment. And no, no, no, that's maybe the ones I've tried, not, not against any of those who are doing it. Um, I probably haven't eaten as much of it as I should. Yeah. What one of the best, best ones is Patrick and Park, Chuck and Moama. And they haven't tried it. So I need to get to it. Yeah, for sure. Me to expand my horizons and Sam, you live in a Canberra. And if you go to the answer, yeah, you will be able to find pattern part products in the deli aisle. Fantastic. Oh, I don't know. And people say that we aren't shells and unofficial sponsors of, you know, this time of the year to plenty of options to go and look at, you know, small goods, it packed them back elsewhere. Is this, is this me? Yeah, I'd go the same way. If there's any, any of our Eric members that want to educate me a bit better, I'd be more than open to trying their top quality product. I'm sure it's out there. Mm. Favorite musician struck song. Oh, okay. Uh, look, um, um, everyone who knows me will know that this probably isn't a surprise. And this time of year, it might come out if there's a microphone in sight. But, um, a little bit of chicken fried, um, is, is always ends up at the top of my Spotify route because I'm, um, nothing, if not predictable. What did, why did you say chicken fried chicken fried? Is that, is that, is that an artist? You can, no, sorry. That's the name of the song. Oh, Zach Brown band is the name, is the name of it. Right. Yeah. I have heard of Zach Brown band. I haven't heard of that. Oh, you're welcome. It's going to get, you listen to it now and it'll be stuck in your head. Oh, okay. All right. Chicken fried. Okay. I was going to start, Andrew, that's, you, you're pretty good with music. And, um, I would have thought you would know all about chicken fried. If you want to, if you're another one, I'll throw out, um, no, actually, well, I was going to do a Christmas theme on the, on, I thought you're going to ask music wise, if what's your favorite Christmas tune? That doesn't count as a, a sixth sensor, which is the side. Probably big expansion of the six. Yes. Yeah. To go to a musical, a musical Christmas number that you'll play on, on Christmas. I'm sorry, asking me. No, I'm asking, I'm asking Sam. What is actually my favorite Christmas tune would be like, yeah, is it Mariah Kerry or is it, uh, you know, the classics like Silver Bells or something? Um, I don't know. Actually, it's definitely not Mariah Carey and some of the, some of the, um, the other ones, I'm probably more of a kind of classic guy. Well, I can't remember the name of that. There's something of the bells, the one that's like the real intense kind of classical bell one. I'm kind of open to it, but I can't even remember its name. And for sure. And any answer, but fair tale of New York isn't correct. All right. That is a classic, a psych evaluation with incorrect answers. I love it. Well, that's, that's how good we are. It's yes or no. Ain't no great here. We'll get back on to it. Uh, now this is our, this is our fifth one, I think, isn't it? So, right. I think I'm keeping track. Yeah. It's a fifth of fun. Uh, what about, um, the access back to China for, for, um, all of the advertising out or back in line again? What's the, what's the answer to that? Uh, I can't do it a few words. Is it a single one? Okay. Look, I think, um, great outcome, a lot of hard work. Yep. We can talk about that in more detail. Yep. Last one, Andrew. Last one, uh, we did free trade before, didn't we? Yeah. I did staffing in meet works struck out to us. Uh, still a struggle, um, that we're making progress. There was making progress. Is that so? That's it. That's the sixth sentence. Has he passed? Andrew, it's a green light come up on the computer. I guess we'll see if the, if the episode's published. Yeah. Now that's good. I'll, I wait for bed address for the outcome of my, um, psychology. Yes. It's okay. You'll probably be going to let it from your employer. Thanks. Thanks, but no thanks. It's, it's not as it's you. Well, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick, Patrick Hutchinson is now departed. The role there and Tim, Tim Ryan has taken on interim CEO, Patrick's probably lazing around on a deck chair somewhere listening to the, you know, he'll be listening to the podcast as soon as it comes out. I think he's got all this spare time now. He'll be able to give us a rundown of his thoughts as well, you know? So, yes, certainly I don't disagree with that for a second. I have a listener. Right. Oh, so tell us free trade agreements. Like we, we're big advocates of free trade agreements, especially because Australia is largely an exporter of most commodities. But you seem to hear more and more of people complaining saying, oh, we don't need free trade agreements. And I feel like that's to be fair, a bit ignorant of people. What's, what's your view on free trade agreements and why are they important for the mid trade? Oh, I would fall into your camp. Um, I think Andrew, they're hugely important. Look, it's no, it's no coincidence that our major trade flows in the media industry reflect where we have in place FTAs with some pretty significant outcomes. Um, to 80%, I think it's around 80% of if we take beef goes to Japan, China career in US, so we've got great agreements with those. But the, the broader range than that across Southeast Asia, UK agreement, UAE just signed. Um, there's, uh, there's the Indonesia agreement. Like every, every country that you're able to offer in those, um, is a major training partner for Australian meat. And I think a lot of that has been off the back of the improved, um, the improved tariff access that those FTAs have granted, it can't be understated. The importance of that. And the meat industry as a whole, um, I'm coming in late to the piece now. There's been a lot of work over a lot of years by a lot of people to, with, with government advocate for those outcomes and get those outcomes. And I think the trade flows and the, the trade stats going to speak for themselves in terms of how important they are. I could, I've actually just looked at the, um, there's going to be a report out from episode three next week. So I'll give you a quick preview for the, some of the listeners, they get early advanced and just on those three trade agreements. So I looked at the last five years and Indonesia was one country I picked out to see, I think their trade agreement came in 2020 with Indonesia. Um, since then, there's been a 64% increase in beef volumes going from Australia to Indonesia and they were, they were already our fifth biggest, but they've just grown, you know, 64% over that period in terms of increased volumes. And then a country like PNG in, so the sheet meat size. So they're quite, you know, one of the top four or five in the sheet meat side since the, since the free trade agreement with PNG, uh, it's sheep, sheep and goat. I should add flows from Australia of up 81%. So, you know, that's, that's the type of what you're just talking about, that, you know, once those free trade agreements in place, it just helps facilitate much easier flow of, of commodity, you know, it's, it's fabulous outcome. Yeah, no, no, I'd agree with that. And that's a, yeah, I'm not surprised by those, by those observations. Uh, it'd be remiss to me not to kind of mention and put a big emphasis on the fact that anyone that works in our space that knows that FDA is a half the bad, although like the, the tariff piece is, is, is important and can make a, the direct kind of impact on the competitive nature on how competitive Australian meat is in market, but certainly the reason we've been able to take advantage of a lot of those is the work the industry has done the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry in particular have done to have the technical market access and systems there so that we can trade those meat when we get those tax outcomes. I think a lot of our colleagues in other ag industries get, you know, an unfortunate situation where they'll receive a tariff outcome in an FDA, but the technical market access is there. So that isn't there, I'm sorry. So they're not able to take advantage of it, but there's a lot of forethought and work that's been done by the industry, uh, and reforming the industry and improving it to make our systems world, world class and accepted by a lot of our trading partners, the means that we can take advantage of that. And so once that tariff area is removed, the trade, the trade flows. And you would just, you did say that you don't often get out on these trips overseas, but you, you have been on some recently. You want to give us a rundown of where you went and what was the purpose? Yeah, certainly. So look, the truth, um, we went, um, I went with Patrick up just then over to China in June at this year, um, it's the visit was, uh, was our first since COVID as the industry association. Um, and that was in response to, I suppose, that there were some positive signs in terms of our relationship at that point in time. Um, the COVID suspended plants had been, there was, that there were 10 just, I suppose, for background that were 10 suspended plants from China, Australian plants, um, that they were a mix of due to COVID issues, um, during the, during the pandemic, um, some labeling issues and then there was some technical kind of residue market access issues as well that made up the tenant. So we've seen those lifted in batches associated with basically the reasoning of, of their suspensions in the first place. So at the point of our trip, the, the COVID ones have been lifted. Um, those, those plants that got back in, which is great. We had some pretty, um, we, we were pretty impressed with the open doors and arms. We were received both by Chinese government when we were there. We had, we had a meeting with the general administration of customs China, which was very informative and they were very great hosts. Um, and then we had meetings with, um, our counterpart associations within the market where they kind of gave us a read on, on where things are at and, and opportunities for Australian products, um, going forward, um, in, particularly in regards to, I suppose, overturning those suspensions where opportunities for more, more establishments who haven't been able to trade to China previously, there's a number of plants that have never had access to China that have been patiently waiting in the wings. And I think we're, we're hopeful that that'll kind of move forward soon. So there's some good discussions around that. And, and then, um, immediately upon our return, um, we, we were very, very pleased to see that those, the second tranche of suspensions were lifted. So that was the ones that had labeling related issues. So that was a, a great result. And I would never claim that it was due to Amy's trip. I think you can never, you can never claim it. We would claim it. Well, it was put out there. It just happened to be when you were there, that they, they were announced these, like, you're a modest person. And that's fine. But, you know, good, good job getting access. It's Max Ross. We were chatting to Patrick Hutchinson a couple of weeks back on the phone. And he was claiming it was all down to him. Wasn't Andrew. Well, that might be slander is actually that statement, but Patrick won't mind. So, so tell us what, so one question is, I've got is, well, the FTAs, that's good. And, but we are going to be coming up to a period on the 20th of January, onwards with a new president of the US. Do you think that's going to have an impact on FTS and an impact on trade flows? I think it's going to have an impact on trade flows. I think, look, I'll leave it to the likes of yourselves to, to run the numbers and speculate on what may or may not happen, but certainly that we're expecting something. Everyone from Amy to our members, the government, everyone's watching very carefully. I think there's a bit of work going on behind the scenes as well to, to manage risks as best as we can. Certainly going to just looking at whether Australia is directly impacted or not. Some of the things that are being thrown around with respect to the Northern Southern neighbors, other, other major markets in, in Asia, there's going to be impacts, right? There's flow on effects for sure. And we saw that last time when, when some of the tariffs came in, even when they weren't related to ACT, there were flow on effects to Australian ACTs. So certainly, I think that's something that we're watching very carefully. We'll be interesting to see what happens, not sure what it will be. But in terms of FTS, I think that's a, that's probably a more nuanced and more difficult question to answer. I mean, we have our FTA in place with the US. We'd hope it would be respected and the conditions of it would be maintained. But also we saw what happened with NAFTA last time. So it got renegotiated and now is Osmaka, the worst acronym no one's a man. So yeah, so look, it's something that everyone's watching very carefully. And as you guys would be well aware that probably the trade into the US lately is reflecting it. I think there's a lot of product going into the market. Some of that's probably using market dynamics in what's happening with the US herd. But across, it's not just beef, it's what's happening with beef, sheet meat and goats. They're all hitting records into the US from Australia. They're all going in big volumes. I think there's probably some risk management happening in terms of getting products in before the 20th of January anyway. Trade while you're certain and deal with the uncertainty later. But certainly it's going to be an interesting time. And from an AIMIC perspective, we're working with our members and working with governments trying to keep our finger on the polls to be. Because unfortunately, you'd be proactively you can and reactively you must. Like to seal a line from the government. And I think that's something that in this case, it's a situation you find yourself in. You probably can't be proactive here. You just need to prepare as best you can and react as quickly and manage it as best you can. When we say what it looks like. One of the concerns that we'd spoken about in the podcast several times around that, what Trump may or may not do in the administration may or may not do regards protectionist policy is potentially going to be directed towards China. And we've expressed as well that the China's economy is still floundering a bit. I guess you could describe it. When you're over there, did you pick up any kind of vibe as to what the feeling is like within the sector there in terms of the meat sector there? Are they... Or even just in general. Yeah, did it feel... What was the general vibe of the place in terms of how people were consuming? Or did any of the people you spoke to mention the economy being a concern? They did. It's probably important to note we're there in June. So there's been some affirmative movement even since then. But certainly there was some talk about it when we were there. A lot of the people we met with were saying, "Look, it is a bit softer than we'd like." That said, I think the space that we're playing in with protein, with food security and just the demand for meat, there's definitely a softening, I think, at the higher end and some of that stuff. But certainly I think the trade reflects that it's still quite positive. It's a giant market. There's a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of opportunity for product differentiation too. But at the same time, and if you want Wagyu in China, you're getting it from Australia. So if you are in that high end space, that's where you're going. So look, there was some talk and there's definitely some cautiousness about it. But at the same time, the Australian meat industry isn't one that finds itself in a situation where it's a be-all and end-all. It's really nice to have. And it's a valuable part of a lot of people's business. But certainly what we're hearing from those who have regained access and others is that businesses have changed. And there's a lot of very good customers around the world that they want to keep supply. And so it's part of a broader mix, I think, and perhaps it was day 2018, 2019. That's kind of how people are going. Yeah, I'm at that's a fair assessment. I was just, as you were saying, I was thinking of the recent history in terms of the broader beef flows to China from Australia. And throughout that difficulty with those avatars that lost access and also the China's economy continuing to kind of falter a bit. Even despite all that, the average flows, although the flows were just a little bit below average compared to, say, the five-year trend. So considering all the difficulties, the fact that that come off, all the COVID instabilities, the fact the economy was a bit struggling, the fact that the beef flows were still pretty close to average, I thought was actually quite positive, to be honest. And then when you look across to sheep meat, particularly mutton, that in the last little bit of time, certainly once our pricing became more competitive again in the last year or a year and a half, the mutton flows have been tremendous. And particularly the last few quarters, I think we had the strongest month on record to China just last month for Mutton. So considering that they have got these ongoing economic kind of softness issues, really speaking from that as a framework, it's still pretty positive. Once they do turn the corner, because they will, the growth prospects are still sensational. And even through these week time, we've had some pretty good flows anyway, would you say? Yeah, no, I'd agree. And particularly when you look at the global context, like the US is going to have to start withdrawing more from global markets as well, when you look at the herd, that's just what's going to have to happen. Similar with the South Americans, there's, I think, some of your work, the work that you guys have done, it's pointed out that there's probably some softening and rebuilding happening over there as well. So when you look at that in the broader macro context, there's certainly, there's some opportunity there. And like you said, that's the beef, but sheep meat still going strong. It's us in the key ways when you're looking at exploring sheep meat and goat meat. A lot of people make it, not many people trade it. We're up the top of the world for trading it and the volume's going in there, coming off a low base admittedly, but the good into the market. But yeah, so look, I think that's kind of where it sits. And when you add to that, like, I'm a pretty optimistic guy, and there's been a lot of work happening within industry and with government to address, I suppose, the listings and plants that have been seeking and listing for a long time. When you're looking at the overall trade flows, if there's a broader range of export establishments that can ship to China, then the trade flows can kind of maintain themselves if there's more sending potentially less. But that's a lot to be seen, I think, how the economy plays out. Was China the only place you visited last year for the city? So did you go elsewhere as well? No, we also, myself and my counterpart, Billy Davies, went over to India this year as well as part of a broader Australian agriculture delegation. So that was in the context of, I suppose, leaking back to FTAs. We've got a great outcome out of the ACTA, the ACTA agreement with India on sheep meat. So the 30% tariff was removed. And so there's, I think, coming off a low base is going to be a slow-burned growth in trade over there. So it was looking at opportunities and areas where maybe our industry can work with their industry to help to forward that trade. Was that the trip that Murray when he was administered, and a few of the other peak bodies like Grain Growers, I think he was shown a goal there from Grain Growers and Bonnie Skinner from SBA. Was that that same one? Separate ones. So it was obviously anemia, a bit of anemia focus, is it like when you just look at the sheer consumption, production, and opportunities there, there's a lot there. So that Patrick went on that one earlier in the year that happened. This was a more technical kind of visit a couple of months ago. So the focus there too, we were a little bit disappointed that Goat Meat missed out on the same treatment that sheep meat got. So we were over there talking to Indian counterparts working within the Indian industry to see, look, how can we, is there some cooperation or work we can do with you to help your domestic industry to extend possible that would help us get a similar outcome, I suppose, for Goat Meat. Because that's probably the biggest priority for the remaining seeker agreement that's currently under negotiation. So there's a bit of work around that, and we're carrying on with that as we speak. And you mentioned that for the sheep meat side, that is coming off a low base, but the potential growth is enormous. That was another country I looked at in this analysis that's coming out next week. And since the free trade agreement with India is up, the flows are up 128%. So that's again from a low base, but I think if we manage this the right way, the possibility of India in 10 years time becoming like another China is there's a fair chance, would you think? Look, I think the key bit there is the 10 years time. I think that when you get rid of something and significance of 30% tariff, you can look at it pretty simplistically and think, well, we could be going in pretty heavy. But like we saw when we were there, I think the way the Indian consumer consumes their meat is vastly different to traded meat. It's still a very kind of locally purchased, not sometimes wet market, sometimes a butcher that's killing out the back type situation. That's just what they're comfortable with. So I'll attract any imported products coming in chilled or frozen. There's a bit of a change. So that's going to take time. But certainly from everyone who spoke to them and what we saw, the country's trading rapidly, and it will. And so I think that's from the members we speak to that are interested are trading with India. That's why I think they're taking a long-term approach. They see some potential there, but they're going to develop some relationships, those commercial relationships, and take those opportunities as they come. What about at the moment, one of the big fangs in meat and probably sheep more so we'll talk about that for a little bit, is the phase out of live sheep exports. So that's going to be a lot more, obviously, processed sheep in the country, or definitely a lot more, might not be more processed sheep, if the sheep numbers drop. But there's going to be obviously a higher percentage of sheep are going to be processed on shore. Have any of your members expressed concern about this, or are they pretty confident that they will have the capacity to process what's not going to be going overseas? Look, it's complex. It's a very complex issue for us. And an aim, it takes a very neutral stance, I suppose, on the phase out. We don't want to see any ag industry closing for sure, but we're sensitive to the realities of the situation. And look, it comes down to the spec of those animals, like it's not going to be one-for-one finding developing markets that will take like a larger, larger animal, the price that they can attract and meet work through. And then in the WAI context, in particular, the extreme seasonality, particularly of sheep meat production, you have an extreme eye, and then it kind of wades off. So there's a kind of slaughter processing capacity piece in there as well. So I think from that perspective, we and our members and as the industry social engine will work closely with government and others to manage that as best we can and get some common sense in the discussions, decisions, and any kind of allocation of a transition package. But we'll play that as it goes. I think it is a very complex one, and we'll keep an eye on it. But certainly, there's a lot to play out. I think over the years that we've got to work through it. With what's going to ask you around that free trade discussion as well, if you could wave your magic wand and get access a free trade top thing up and running for a particular country, we don't currently have an agreement in place. Which one would you choose if you could just kind of get that process immediately underway and established as an FDA? Is there a particular one you'd focus in on? Look, there's two ways to look at this, I suppose. That if you looked at trade volumes and remaining tariffs and what just objectively would be a good outcome, Taiwan's up there. But there's realities around that ever happening. So I think more pragmatically, what we're really looking at is the UAE FDA that's just been done. There's a bit of a gateway into a GCC-wide FDA. So the tariffs aren't huge, but it's been a mixed bag. There's some product lines that have pretty big tariffs, some don't, it's all over the shop. But there's also some measures in place that add costs to our guys trading into the market. And it's a particularly big growth market. We think the deal that's been done with UAE is probably a good template to roll out to the region. But that in terms of practical realities of what's feasible to negotiate and what we would see being worth the effort, that's definitely where we're probably interested. And one of that note, as you mentioned, those are the Gulf countries base that you talked about, that group, if you've got an access with the GCC group, is it eight or 12 countries within that group? Do you know the number of top you hit? Yeah, no, I don't. So it's like you Saudi Arabia, Jordan, QA, all that MENA region. And so if you could get that agreed, then you've got access to the vast number of countries all in one hit. There are, obviously, taking currently, I mean, quite a bit of our lives, but also like the UAE for sheep meat is right up in the top four or five for combined sheep meat already. So yeah. And I suppose we've seen this in technical space as well. So over the last look, there's a number of years. The industry works with MLA, OSTRADE, DAF. It was a real collegiate effort by everyone to, A, develop science, B, promote the science, D, advocate, I skipped a list, C, advocate for the science in market across that region on shelf life. And they had quite prescriptive shelf life limits that really kind of limited your ability to commercially trade by, particularly by C, for a lot of vacuum-packed, chill product, that all got accepted. And that's resulted in a lot of trade already kind of now going over there to do to that. So we know the approach that we took in those negotiations is really find a couple of key partners to accept it, use them as the leaders, and then leverage that to get an outcome across the multiple markets. And we can't see why we couldn't do a similar one, I suppose, in the FDA context. Similar approach to that. Equally, with those, with that particular region, and Andrew, he touched on the last year, but I don't want to draw on that either, because like you said, you've got to somewhat of a diplomatic stance on it yourselves. But have you, have you in negotiations with those partners in the Middle East, has there been some indications that they're not really that kind of decision? Are they annoyed with the decision? Yeah. I can't even speak to that. So look, that's just not the space that we play in. We're there about expanding the things that we've got. I'm in my routine job and through our connections, we're not talking to the guys that we employ live as a general rule, so I'm sure to be honest. Fair enough, I just wasn't sure if that was something that was relayed back. I know that at the time that it first went down, I think one of the QAD officials, whether they were government official representative, had mentioned that they weren't satisfied, obviously, and that invested quite a lot in that live exports of fly chains. So that made sense. But when we actually looked at the numbers as part of the live sheet report, we did for the panel. Some of the countries, like you Saudi Arabia's, which have only just started but taking live again now. But when they stopped back in 2012, they actually increased the volumes percentage wise of box stuff from Australia. And then you've got somewhere like Bahrain that's Bahrain that stopped in I think 2015 or 16 taking live, they decreased. So it's not a clear cut thing that if we lose live, they're not going to take the box anyway, right? They're independent countries and they're quite variable in how they're going to respond. So it's really a tricky one to get a grip on, I suppose. And there's a big commercial aspect in what you're targeting. It's not going to be a wonderful one to swap if you're going into high-end. If you're sending boxes of wagyu, right? So there's a lot that plays out in, I suppose, the hides under the trade stats and what'll actually end up playing out as well, like in terms of the protein and what they want and what segment of the market you catering to across the sheep as well as me. It's an interesting, the MENA region is quite an interesting one because when you look at the, not just for Australian product coming in, but when you look at all beef product going to the MENA region, the market's quite stratified. So you've got the high-end kind of wagyu going in there, you've got top quality, your Angus style feedlot IMF beef going in it, it's fairly good pricing. And then you've got this commodified stuff from India and Brazil that's much cheaper. In the sheep meat side, it's pretty, like the prices across the different like New Zealand and Australia and some of the European countries ascend and a few of the other, there's a bit of trade within the Middle Eastern North Africa as well. But most of the pricing, even India, sends a little bit. The pricing's pretty similar levels in terms of average yearly pricing and it kind of tells me that in the sheep meat side, it's still very much a commodity market. Do you think there's a, given the strategy, had the beef side stratified, you've got premium, clear premium markets, middle range stuff, low-level commodity stuff? Do you think there's an opportunity over time as well to try and demonstrate to a country, or to that MENA region that if we've got sending premium branded sheep meat or lamb, that there's the ability to potentially kind of start to make that access a bit more stratified as well? I think that started. I think MLAs doing some of the work I've seen that MLA are doing over there, they work hard, particularly on that, I think. There's been some work that we've done around our haul-all assurance programs in particular. We've got, we're pretty impressed that the industry, the tripartite, we call it, the industry Islamic Association and government kind of haul-all assurance and certification system that we have for Australian spread meat that's exported. So we've done some of that and certainly, yeah, there's work going on around promoting, I suppose, that higher end, how to treat it, how to cook it, like how it fits in with existing cuisine, new options just to kind of promote that. So I think that's some work that's kind of ongoing. Yeah, I was, it's a new trick one that, it makes a lot of sense that you mentioned that MENA region as we'd make way for Magic Wanden to get access to that broader Gulf countries. But I was half expecting you to say the EU, because that's the one that often comes up, right, that high value EU market. Do you think, do you think we're going to have, I mean, I know we've been working on one there, but it's, it's slow progress. Do you think we're going to get there eventually to get access to the EU as well for FFTA? If I could wave my Magic Wand and we could get a good deal out of the EU, then certainly it would, it would probably jump to the top of this for sure. Knowing what we were looking down the barrel of when we came close before, and just being, is it a priority for the industry? Definitely. It still is. We would still love to see a good deal be done. But as we said at the time, we are after a good deal, not any deal. And I think the reality of the EU, anyone who watches the EU and seems what's happened at the moment with Macoza, it's not the greatest deal. And they're still having extreme difficulty, like I'm saying for the South Americans. My personal view is it's not the best deal I'm kicking around, yet the Europeans are still dying to try and get it through their systems. So just looking at the realities of the situation, would Australia be able to get something that we as an industry, a particular meat industry would see as a fair acceptable outcome, particularly with the history of what we've been through with the EU and the UK split and how we've been treated in some of that stuff? Would we get the quotas without restrictions that we need to make it useful? Look, I love it. I still think it's a priority. I think we should work towards it and our message with our DFAT colleagues that we, when we catch up with them is like, we still want to see the agreement and we'll work with you as best we can to try towards it. Do I personally see that as something that the EU will come to the table with? I'm doubtful, like I'm hopeful but doubtful if I'm completely poor. Or if it does, it's not going to be in the next year or so, it's going to still take a lot of negotiation, you reckon? Yeah, certainly. That's it. There's a big pause for European parliamentary elections and we'll probably, well, we will have our own election next year, so we'll need to see what happens there. But when you kind of get back to the table and see, has there been any significant change in what was being discussed last time? Because it would need to be a significant change. And I'm just not sure that the Europeans would offer that up. If I'm completely blunt, that's my personal assessment. Is there anything presently that, if there's one thing that kept up at night that you do, that you worry about just in the present scenario, is there one particular thing that's kind of pressing on your mind when you're thinking about what your role is and what you're going to do, dammit? No, I think the problem is in my role, it's what you don't, what isn't keeping you up at night that ends up keeping you up at night down the track. Unfortunately, anytime any trading partner that in the world decides to change their domestic regs, we have to jump through some hurdles to give them assurance that we can still meet their requirements. There's a constant stream of effort done by many people. Like I said, whether it's QA teams on plant, making sure that their system is the right to government regulators, making sure they're giving the oversight that the other country needs to whilst making sure that industry understand and everyone's working together in that piece. So there's a lot of stuff there. And frankly, the ones that are really problematic come out nowhere. You don't see them coming, I think. Yeah, I think the US tariff stuff, everyone can see that. We'll need to see what happens just in the broader trade dynamic. That's probably one that's on everyone's mind. And one that we'll, as I mentioned earlier, we'll keep a close eye on, but apart from that, I think it's more making sure that ourselves, government and industry are prepared to react and adapt for a hiccup that we don't see. Look, sorry, but actually the one that you can emergency animal disease. Sorry, that's an obvious one, right? But when FMD put mouth disease and lumpy skin disease, huge, huge problems. A lot of work's gone on behind the scenes again with industry and government to prepare particularly for lumpy skin disease to make sure we would be able to trade if we got it. And that's managing a low that risk, but it's still a very bleak situation. So by security, you can't underestimate the importance to Australian trade for it. So that's why it always rains top of the list in a priority. And it's always something that could go away in the heartbeat, unfortunately. So it is the thing that niggles your brain. The EID for sheep and that is rolling out next year. Andrew, you did a piece on it just this week. And this has been some, I guess you'd call it, some farmer, individual farmer, kind of angst. And angst, yeah, I was going to say backlash, but it's probably angst is probably a better descriptor. I think, I think it's just a lot of people, you know, are just unsure of why it's needed. Like a lot of people are complaining saying this is something forced upon farmers by the Department of Ag, by the Labour government, that's what they say. But the reality is this is something that was requested and lobbied for pretty hard by the sheep industry. I think from my perspective, and where we see it and what we do, it's, it's important not to underestimate and undervalue the system. Right. And I'm speaking very generally, but whether it's our traceability systems with EID, whether it's food safety systems, regulatory systems, it's, they are the fundamentals by security systems. Sorry, it's another one. They're the fundamentals that get had got us in the place we are. And it's the continual improvement that's kept us where we are in terms of a global leader in meat exports. That, there were similar discussions. People have told me who older than me and more hard-headed when, when the beef rollout happened with cattle. Like it happens, we understand. But the fact of the matter is there's, there's been a shift that's been happening for probably decades now where the meat, our members, the meat processing industry and export industry, they're the ones that trade the meat, right? They're the ones that are getting the product into market. They're the ones that caught the brunt of suspensions when things happen. For years, it was them having to show that they're meeting the important country requirements, but whether it's traceability, food safety, residues, or even things like animal welfare or sustainability, increasingly it's a supply chain assurance that's needed. And I guess that's on the ground, it can be like, well, what's the purpose of this? It's an extra cost that we don't need, but that cost contributes to your ability to market and send the end product. And if we don't have it, we're not going to be able to trade. So look, I have sympathy for it and I understand it, but from our perspective, I suppose it comes back to, again, the importance of things like non-vendor decks, like they're mundane, they're boring, we get it. But getting those right and getting them getting them truthful and accurate ultimately means that we have the high level of assurance, our trading partners have confidence in our system and the trade flows smoothly. So that's probably my high level bit, like I get it. And that's what we've seen in a lot of countries, we've seen places like Brazil being on and off in terms of market access, and they find one beast with FMD or BSE or whatnot, and then it's shut down for months and months and months on end. So I guess having that ZID system speeds up process, but I can understand from sheep farmers' point of view, with sheep values being relatively low last couple of last 12 months or so, especially Western Australia, and then having to pay extra money on top. And having to do something new, I guess. It's probably also, particularly from Western Australia, because there's some quite a few of the angst coming from Western Australia, but it could be a combination of the EOD plus the love of expertise, and plus several other decisions that they had that issue with the Aboriginal Heritage Act thing that changed at the last minute. They've had issues around adjustments to their gun laws, so they're probably feeling like it's just a lot of stuff across ranges of different red tape bureaucracy things that are just making their life difficult. So it may be also a frustration of other things, not just the EOD tags. I was going to say, Andrew, you'd spoken a few times about the old analogy of when you build your reputation up in 5 cent coins, and then you can wipe it out when you do something wrong and it comes away. I've heard of the expression, but I've never actually built up a good reputation to lose it. So I'm always on an even zero. Or minus. But that's the analogy with regards to these kind of things. If you do get something significant that impacts your training, you've got to be able to show all those different things like you're saying, Sam, to be able to be able to, whether it's traceability or sustainability, but making sure that you've got all your biosecurity in place, all those things are crucial to keeping that access open. In modern, particularly mature government to government, international regulatory relationships, there's an acceptance that things aren't going to be perfect all the time and things go wrong. And in those, I've seen from the other side, when I was in government to now, it's how you react. There's a lot, if you take it seriously and you have the systems to manage it and provide that assurance again on top of it quickly, rather than wiping out your 5 cent pieces, you add a few more because you show that when things go wrong, you can manage it. So I think that's important. Well, that kind of goes to the board, broader industry government, preparatory piece as well. All right. Well, we've had John for a bit here. And I know just off air before you come on, you mentioned that you're going away on a holiday to chase some snow in Northern Hemisphere. And that's why we were able to squeeze you in quickly before you went for the Christmas break. And we're not available. When you get back after the break and everything, what is there anything exciting happening into 2025 you're looking forward to? There is. Thanks for asking. Yeah, Amy will be holding our meat processing and export conference in March next year. So we'll be the 12th and 13th of March at the Royal Pines Resort on the Gold Coast. So look, I'm sure yourselves and any others, either industry or associated with the industry, well, I don't need too much of an excuse to go to the Gold Coast. But we held our last one back in 2023. After an eight year break, it went quite well. We're quite happy with the with the feedback we got and the and the speakers that we had. And a lot of the stuff that we've spoken about today is probably going to be covered during the conference. So Joe Hockey is confirmed as our keynote, which will be great given his experience under the first Trump administration. So we're really looking forward to that. We have a few other announcements in the pipeline. We're hoping to make soon in terms of speakers and representatives that will be there. But yeah, look, it's a great opportunity. And we'd like to see as many people from the industry or even associated with the industry coming. We think it's a good food for thought and in particular reaching out to either companies that work with the meat processing and export mob or even other ag industries that kind of want to see how we do it in the meat space. We see that as a good opportunity, but also for us and our members, great opportunity network and catch up after. It's been a pretty hectic. It'll be 18 months between drinks. But no, a couple of good market analysts podcast hosts that could could potentially be on the programme, Sam. Yeah, great. If you if you know their name, send them to me, I'm yet to get to meet some good ones. So I'm looking forward to seeing you guys there. Well, everyone, this is, well, I think I'm not sure when it's going to go, whether it's going to go before Christmas or after, it would be before Christmas. Yeah, I think so. Probably Monday. I guess, thanks all listeners for a good 2024. We'll probably have another podcast out for the new year anyway. It's just probably the second of the free podcast where we said Happy New Year and Merry Christmas and all that. We'll do a podcast of just Christmas songs. You're not Christmas songs. Enjoy the brick and don't do anything we wouldn't do. Yeah, no, that's it. Thanks for coming on, Sam. Have a safe trip. Don't don't get lost in the snow and say get out of frosty and see when you got none. Yeah, we'll do. Thanks very much, guys. Appreciate it. Yeah.