I am here today, as you would expect with Ann Law Jackson from Sanjay in Jersey. Hello, Ann. Hello, lovely to see you. Now we were talking about your centre, and I think we sort of referenced it a bit, but can you give us a few more details because you deal with sensory health? So just so people who perhaps haven't listened to the last however many episodes, just help us with what it is that you do as a sensory occupation of, no, specialist centre. So occupational therapist, what does it you do, how can you help people? But also where does the centre fit into what it is that you do? Yeah, so as a sensory specialist, I help people, I equip others online through the stuff that I have to assess the sensory needs of an individual, whether that be the child, an adult, an older person. And then once we found those seven, eight senses, we break down what's going on in each of those senses because they're foundational, it's how we come out of the womb, the foundation blocks on which we develop, we put all our development onto to be coordinated, to speak well, to be emotionally regulated. And there are so many of our senses, so many ways that our senses process things that get in the way of having a fulfilled life and living well and feeling well. So we assess all of those senses, then I treat them through sensory integration treatment ideally. Some of it is what I do myself. Some of it is what I teach people the principles of that therapist, it's really powerful. And then once the therapy's been done or while the nervous system is changing, while we're changing the neurophysiology and their function physically, then we put management techniques in place, which is a kind of normal advice that if someone's bothered by sound, they put ear defenders on or earplugs. Those are the management techniques, those are sensory strategies, not sensory treatment. So that is where the center comes into it. The center is the space for that therapy to happen, because there's lots of equipment in there that is very different to what you will see elsewhere. Although society is changing and we're getting more radical types swings and things in the outdoor play areas, which is great, we don't have a lot of things like that indoors. So yeah, we need to challenge the body in a way that is exciting and that's motivating for people, which takes an element of risk and that's why you want people to be able to oversee what goes on in that space because it's that balance of allowing people the freedom in the free space to do things, but also allowing them that element of doing something different that they've never done before, which is what really develops the brain and the body really, really well. I'm saying that the difference between management and treatment, because if you think about sort of the classic stereotype of you go to your doctor, your family practitioner, your GP, okay, I've got a full lump on my arm. It's a bit uncomfortable and they'll take a look at them and say, well, that's a bruise because it's a bright color or all that could be something we need to get further investigation into or what's going on here and they can start to evaluate it and then to diagnose the problem and it might be okay, we need to cut something off the skin, we might need to give you some cream or here's an ice pack. So that depending on what they see, they're going to be giving us some form of treatment. So where does treatment come in then as opposed to management because management could be stop walking into walls and there's a wall in your house and there's a bit sticking out, you keep banging into it. You'll move it out the way, you won't bang your arm, you won't have to bruise on your arm, which then yes, we'll get worse and worse. So how do we kind of understand and balance between management of a situation as opposed to treatment of a situation? Yeah. So if there was somebody that was banging into a wall, that's a really good, a lot of my people do you do that actually? So it would be, and as you say, so management is move the wall. That is what regular people, they see something happening externally, common sense tells you, let's move the wall apart from the fact that it's expensive and all the rest of it. But the theory of it is, yeah, let's change, let's change the environment. That is what a lot of the advice is coming from a lot of the spaces and places and support groups that are out there because they are just common sense and you help people think through the implications of what happens if you bump into a wall. The treatment side of it is why are they bumping into that wall in the first place? What is going on with their visual perceptual, their tactile system, their proprioceptive system, which is their muscles and joints? How aware are they of where their body is? And therefore, that's why they're bumping into the wall. So I work on the body, I work on those senses, I would look at visual, I would look at auditory as well to see what they're picking up, how much they're aware of where they are in space, coming from what's coming in their ears, but their tactile system, I'd assess that and I'd assess their use of their muscles and their joints and their ability to know where they are, especially when we close their eyes, give them some assessments of what it's like to do things with their eyes closed and just see how they function. So that way, I would do the actual sensory integration treatment to get the body working together so we don't need to move the wall. Often the strategies, some of the strategies are really cheap and really easy, but some of them, like moving a wall, would be really costly. So it's like, well, just give me six to 12 weeks with someone, let me work with them, let them work on their own body and it can be remarkable the difference that it can make in someone's function because we actually deal with and treat those senses, help them develop the way that they ought to have developed in order to help us function best as young people and as adults. I guess, partly because we think about moving a wall, that's builders, that's extensions, that's very expensive, but actually, it might be the cheaper option. If you keep on banging it and falling over and breaking your leg, do you know what moving a wall might be cheaper? And actually, I suppose in a sense, that's where looking at another option, rather than just banging into the wall, falling over and hurting yourself, it could be something sticking out of the wall. It could be a little, I don't know, a little bit of wood or something, it's like, well, take it off the wall. Okay, it might look a bit messy at first, but your arm won't be bruised all the time and actually that would be an improvement. Yeah, we could also use other strategies, well, it does it look like, do we not have that highlight? Do we need to colour it for the visual sense? So maybe we would need to put like a red marker on the side, it's like people walking into glass doors, it's just like, do we not think, do we not recognise that actually, people can't see that that's a door, that's really painful, anybody who's walked into a glass door knows. So we realise we need to put visual strips, some opaque things, and if people are still banging into walls, we need to change the colour and make it really obvious that this is a pain of glass, please do not walk into me. So we can use different strategies, or if they walk closer to something, then there's a little pad and there's a noise that goes off to say, okay, you're coming near the bit where the wall is. We could use all those other different sensory strategies to help stop someone bumping into the wall. I used to work for a retail shop many years ago, and we had a full height glass door, it had like a metal surround, it wasn't perfectly glass, but we would frequently, at least twice a week, which to me was very frequent, someone would just walk smart, straight into the door, bounce off it and fall on the floor. Now because it's not just glass, it was very strong, it was double glazed, so they're not going to break it unless they really run at it. And so we would put a little poster, smack in the sort of eye-height-ish big poster, and we were told, oh you can't do that, that's ruining the image of the shop, it looks ugly, and we would say, we kind of don't care because a slightly ugly door is better, I mean not even in the lawsuit, it's better than someone being hurt, unnecessarily, just stick a poster on the window, problem solved. It's so hard when you think, aesthetically, I totally get it, aesthetically it looks gorgeous, I'm a big glass girl, I love glass all over the place, but not in a space where someone's going to walk into it, and I don't know why we don't compute that because it's all over the place, I'm so glad you did, well done you. Well, it was just one of those, everyone's always, it's the lawsuit, I'm not, if it's a lawsuit, it's not me personally anyway, I don't really care, actually I'm more interested in the fact that somebody's walking into a door, I mean aside from any pride in whatever in my prize been hurt, they could seriously injure themselves, and what if they actually last, does smash, now it's just the ramifications and the consequences of not sticking a poster at eye level, which ruins the aesthetics of the door, but actually protects people from serious harm. And mentally, because if you've done that all of a sudden you really doubt who you are and how you are because you can't trust, a lot of my people can't trust their bodies, they're very cautious, they're very anxious, they're quite scared of a lot of things, because for a good reason they can't, they can't trust their own body, that is a real, that's a real trust issue that all of a sudden you could see clearly, you're normally functioning really well, and you've had this massive trauma, you bump into something that you're not aware of, if people are on their phones, there's a reason why they bump into a lamppost because they're on the phones, that's different, they're just being silly, it's just being distracted and that's what happens, but when genuinely you believe that you are doing the right thing and you are walking well, and you just go into this door because there's nothing visually to give you that feedback that actually you're not physically going to be able to walk through this, you're going to get hurt in the process, that's a real shock to your mental health, a lot of doubt, a lot of insecurity, it can take a long time for some people to get over, which is why we still post it, and we got told off, it was taken down, we stick it back up again, because you know what, it's tough, okay, let's look at that idea, because we were also about being risk averse, one of the things that was struck me growing up is we have adventure playgrounds or adventure parks, in a big massive theme parks and they're spread over many, many acres and you get strapped into this thing and it goes up a slope and it falls down the other side and yay isn't it really really fun, now personally no, because I'm probably going to throw it because my stomach does not like that, but that to one side, and it's amazing how safe we are and we're shocked when it goes wrong, you know, someone's hanging up in the air and all of a sudden the machine breaks and they fall out, well yes, your two foot suspended up and the three leaves you might fall out and you know what, metal breaks and it doesn't matter how much care they put in it, some point it's going to break to the point you're going to fall out, that's going to happen and sadly, tragically does, but how do we suppose being risk averse as a society, everywhere is getting slower, I was driving through a 20 mile an hour speed limit the other day thinking this is too slow, I am not looking at anybody other than my speedo and I really had to work really, really hard as a professionally trained driver, I'm now not looking at any pedestrians or anything because I'm just trying to keep slow enough under that 20 mile an hour speed limit, which is why I think, you know, that's not actually a wise way of going, but we sort of try and limit risk to the, to the extent, we're not careful, that we're actually not living and at some point we have to live, so this, this is the example I was going to give you and then you can come back at it from a central point of view, when I was put on blood thinners, I went to see my GP and said, I'm on blood thinners, I'm not sure what's going on, I guess you're going to tell me I need to stop exercising, stop mountain biking, which is what I do in lots of the time because I might fall over and cut myself and that's bad and he said, no, I want you to get on your mountain bike and go cycling and if you fall over and you cut yourself, have something to stick on the wound, don't stop mountain biking just because you might fall off and bleed. You need to live and enjoy life in spite of the medication you're on, so with that as a very physical example, how can we understand that from a central point of view of trying to do stuff, perhaps we risk adverse to because we're not confident in our senses, but we kind of need to live also. Yeah, yeah, the crux of the therapy that I do and the type of equipment that I use means that there are things that are different for people to explore so that they can't rely on their normal ways of doing things. You want to bike, you know, you pedal around and round and that's how it works. You start going on different ground, all of a sudden you have to move slightly differently, yes, your wheels are slightly going round, but you're more conscious of your balance to accommodate for changes in the gravel, so if it's gravel, just in case there's something that might put you off, that uncertainty, that uniform sense of ground is the same way that my equipment works. I have equipment that challenges balance, that challenges the body in a way that causes the brain to what we call make adaptive responses, which is that we want the brain to be connecting with the body to stop itself from falling or to actually initiate something that somebody might think is pleasurable. All of that comes with an element of risk because it's like you have to put yourself out of your normal centre of balance, you have to put yourself out of your normal psychological sense of I know what I'm doing, but it has to be that motivational push to want to have to strive to want to do something a little bit different that you've never done before, that's what's so powerful about changing the brain when those occasions happen, so it could be a risk mentally to do something that you've never done before and think about how you might take a step towards doing something, but it will always, from my perspective, it will always connect with a physical movement because the integration of how we think and how we move the integration of our mind, soul, body, spirit is so key to being healthy, spiritually healthy, physically healthy, sensory healthy, emotionally healthy, all of those go together to a really healthy humanity and a human being and a living experience. So yeah, it's that balance of pushing it to outside of what is norm, which causes that element of risk, which could be a physical risk, but it could be a risk in other areas, but it is managed and it is careful, but it is still, we have to allow people to experience how to do things differently, otherwise we will always do the same, think the same, you know, that's not living. I think about how we get on with the living part, if I was on a drug, perhaps that would mesh in my equilibrium, my ability to stand up right and know where's down, where's up, if I was on something that was messing with that, maybe the GP would have said, well perhaps mountain biking isn't the best option for you, why don't you try a treadmill or an exercise by that isn't moving, so you've got some fixed points, and I guess that's where we do need experts in their fields, which is what you do, which is what the GP was, who said, look, don't not cycle just because you could have a problem, because you could not have a problem, also, because you said you're not going to be aiming for the ground, are you? No, you're not going to be trying to hurt yourself, no, right, in that case, just get on with the mountain biking, we are on the soles of your planes, which was brilliant, you're getting fresh air, you're getting sun, you're getting exercise, it's good on so many levels, the possibility of cutting yourself, which on blood thinners is a risk, and he said that's not worth it, he said, just get out on your bike, keeping it, you're loving it, it's enjoyable, it's good for so many things, the one possible risk that could happen also might not happen, and therefore why we'd get it out, and I guess we're senses we all have these comfort zones where we're happy, but we need to push who we are physically, mentally, in order to understand what we can achieve. Yeah, and what is a therapist, I kind of draw out that motivation rather than like pushing from behind, that push is an interesting word, that's an interesting concept as to how we work it and what it means, and it's great in certain circumstances, yeah, so it's just that gentle motivation to think that drawing them out, to do something that they've never done before, to balance in a way that they've never balanced before, to pull on something, to make something move, to see a cause and effective of pushing something, of going down a ramp on their front when made like on a scooter board, which is like a skateboard, but the wheels go in all different directions, so you can kind of be on your front, it's like surfing, surfing one wheels indoors, if that makes sense, so if you're paddling through the surf, you actually paddle on the ground instead, you've got wheels that will go in all directions, and you can kind of like paddle around the room, that is a lovely thing, all of a sudden I ask them, or I show them there's a ramp there, that they can actually put their scooter board on, and they can actually go down it on their front, making sure that yes, I don't have a glass wall at the end of it, that I have padding there, that I have other things that they will be safe when they land, should they go down more fast than they expected to, so they can't control it, but just see, you know, is that motivating, do they want to try that, they've had a feel of how fast it is to go on this scooter board, some won't like the speed, in which case we just stay on the floor, and we'll just see if we can slowly bring the risk of bringing them a little bit faster, sometimes I might pull them and just check are they happy with that, and they can be whisked around the room while they're on the scooter board, and I'm the one that's doing the pulling, but they're happy with that, and then it's like, oh should we try it on the ramp, so it's doing those little gradings so that we increase the risk bit by bit according to what we feel they are comfortable with, because if they're too scared, say if they are on that roller coaster, that is just going to flood their system, and they are going to be completely overwhelmed, it might be sick for the next two days, so that's not as a therapist where we go, if people choose to do that themselves on your head, be it, but as a therapist we need to take things just step by step so that there is a, it's a managed risk of how much we push or we pull or we encourage that motivation and draw out how far they're willing to go and how quickly they're willing to go. And I guess the idea of pushing ourselves and how fast can we go, we can increase that, but if we don't try, we don't know, I was very confident that any sort of adventure place would be bad for me, because I had one bad experience on this particular ride, and I've never, ever wanted to come one since. When I was working with an additional needs school, I had responsibility in one of these places, and I had two kids here who I was responsible for, one of them is in the wheelchair, wanted to go on this pirate ship, which is the one that just goes up and down and up again, it's very simple, it moves on one little motion, I really didn't want to go on this Mr. Mary, can we go on? Yes, I suppose, because it was supposed to be their day of fun, and I went on and I did not do well, but I got through it because he was loving it, because he was strapped into his wheelchair in the thing, and the staff were great, they just had ways of securing the wheelchair, because that's good, and he had an absolute fantastic time. I didn't, but he did, and somehow it was worth it, me feeling sick for a few days afterwards, which I did, actually it was worth it because I saw the joy in his face of just that, I think it was the moment at which you become weightless, and I guess, is it different because he's in a wheelchair, I don't know, but he absolutely, the elation was more than everybody else on that. That is gorgeous, that's linear vestibular, it's a beautiful thing for lots of people, not everybody, but yeah, it's, and especially when you are in a wheelchair, you don't have the same vestibular experiences, and I think it's really good that we are slowly moving as a society to incorporate wheelchairs into vestibular activities, we're starting to get, I don't even know if we have one on the island here, but we're starting to get play-parks that you can put a wheelchair on, so some will get rotation. If you want an electric wheelchair, you can take yourself around and around, but that's okay, but there's a little bit of up and down, I suppose, in certain wheelchairs, but that's the higher end of what you can afford, but most won't have a lot of vestibular input, and it's so important for our development in lots of different areas. So just because somebody's confined, it is confined in that term, physically they are confined with what their vestibular experiences can be because we haven't yet developed the full types of movements that folks in wheelchairs should be able to get in order to help continue to use that vestibular system well. I know we've spoken in the past about a difference between younger and older people, I'm guessing somewhere in the teens, it changes where you might be on a roundabout and you're spinning round and as a child, it's great and as a 25-year-old, now you're throwing up because your body can't cope, so we know that there are going to be changes, but is there a difference you think between men and women or boys and girls when it comes to challenging our, I suppose, safely pushing those risk zones? Okay, the analogy in my head is lads, the stereotype is lads love to do this stuff that's dangerous, they're getting a bite, they go down a hill and they don't think about the water bottom, they just want to go down the hill. Is there a difference in how we're made that boys and girls or men and women, do we view this differently? That's fascinating because I know that I am not eight, what would be class as a typical because I was the one who was encouraging the boys to do things, my own children and it was just like, so I never said careful and yeah, I knew that other family members who were female, were they all careful, why are you saying no careful? I don't get it and that wasn't, I mean, I was a young therapist at that point, it wasn't as if I was well, it just was who I was and I like, I've always been more of a risk-taker, more of an optimist, more of a faith, you know, just all of those things, it's interesting how that all comes together as well. But yeah, for boys, we've got a natural, I think there is a natural bent in, in, I was going to say the male species, I don't know how to describe it, just in men and boys generally, but also because their systems need a lot more, I think, of a vestibular proprioceptive input because the actual mass of masculinity, ooh, that's an interesting example, mass of masculinity is higher, so there is more input that is needed to develop a male body, the intensity of everything is higher, whereas I think girls, there's less of us, there seems, there does seem to be something that there is on a typical basis that we don't need quite as much input and therefore we would also think, it's easier for us to think ahead because we're already, genuinely, a little bit more integrated than boys growing up, so we would think, and maybe that's not a good idea, you need to make sure that there's something at the end of that, down the bottom of the hill, because actually you're going to hurt yourself and we, you know, we, you know, all of that's there, but the boys are still in that, oh, this feels really good, this is great sensory input, you know, really physical, lots of vestibular input going really fast or spinning or upside down or, you know, that thrill seeking is massively sensory and it just, it just helps boys feel good and who they are, then you've got the whole bravado and then you've got all the other emotional, social things that go on with, with, with, with, with masculinity but there, I think there is a difference, there is a difference sensory-wise and I think a lot of it is that the girls don't genuinely, generally need as much input as, as the boys do, because the, the mass of, of, of boys is, is different, so. That was interesting, that was not the answer I thought you'd give it all, that was really fascinating. I, I just see this thing of lads like charging down a hill, I remember doing it at the thrill, now I'm tend to be probably more risk averse and when I got my lads on mountain bikes jumping off a little tiny wall, Joe was quite shocked, I was even doing that, but it's sort of the thing I think, well what if they fall, we break the bike, they hurt themselves, that would have been where my brain goes, stay at home, dad for so many years, so I was quite surprised that I had this one day when I was like, great, let's get a mountain bike and chop off a little wall, okay, we, we increased the danger levels of who went, but it was good fun and actually, always loved it, and Joe didn't fancy trying it, well that's the thing, it's just like, yeah, I wouldn't have done half the things and I still wouldn't, I'm happy for others to do, it's just like, now I'm not going to do that, that would just not bring me pleasure, um, but yeah. I'll be there cheering you on, but you go for it, absolutely, right, um, yeah, I love how we, we never know what we're going to talk about really, there's no scripting here, I've got some ideas and stuff, we don't even touch those, um, and today we've covered the idea of taking risks, is there a difference between genders, yes, there seems to be some typical differences, and we've looked at things like, how do we not be risk averse, how do we actually look at being risk averse, what can we do to our lives to make lives more interesting and to challenge ourselves, which is a good thing, because we are made and designed to do amazing things, are we not? We are, oh, go for it, let's leave me alive, we need to come alive, if you are not feeling alive, if you are not living life to the full, then something, there's something amiss, and then start with the senses, go for an eccentric experience that you've never had before within certain boundaries, um, that, yeah, that will just make you feel alive and make you feel good. It is good. If you want more information about Anne Law Jackson, how you can connect with her and have helped from her, if you're struggling with your senses or maybe a loved one is, you can find out more at our website, it will links to her for you, which is pure247radio.org, pure247radio.org/alj, but Anne Law Jackson. Brilliant. Thank you, Anne. We'll see you again next time. Bye. Bye. Did you know, Pure247radio has a shop, well, we do, you can buy merchandise while supporting the work that we do here, simply head over to www.pure247radio.org/shop, that's www.pure247radio.org/shop. 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