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Ep. 474 Shady El Damaty | Web3 Privacy with Human Keys on Holonym

Ep. 474 Shady El Damaty | Web3 Privacy with Human Keys on Holonym For episode 474, Co-founder Shady El Damaty joins Brandon Zemp to discuss Holonym and how they are introducing Human Keys to make security and privacy more usable in web3 and zero trust environments. Shady El Damaty is an advocate for decentralized identity and data privacy. With a background spanning academia and decentralized science, he brings a unique perspective to building universal, secure digital identities through zero-knowledge proofs. Before Holonym, Shady founded Opscientia, the first decentralised science DAO, where he raised funding, launched a fellowship program, and led data-sharing initiatives. Founded in 2022, Holonym is building secure, private digital rights with three core tools: Human Keys for cryptographic identity, Silk for easy account access, and Zeronym for privacy by default. Together, these tools empower users to control their digital presence without compromising personal security. In two years, Holonym has raised $6M, achieved $1.5M in revenue, and launched the first profitable Zero-Knowledge (ZK) ID protocol, with over 200k credentials and 135k users. Innovations like the Mishti Network and ZK verification tools have positioned Holonym as a leader in decentralized privacy and regulatory tech solutions. ⏳ Timestamps: 0:00 | Introduction 1:08 | Who is Shady El Damaty? 6:03 | What is Holonym? 9:19 | Human Keys 10:55 | Mishti Network 16:10 | Holonym use-cases 19:22 | Silk Wallet 23:35 | Zeronym 26:43 | Real Human Identities in the Metaverse 32:35 | Holonym 2025 Roadmap 34:12 | Holonym social media & community 🎙 Holonym Links: 🔗 Website: https://holonym.id 🔗 X: https://x.com/0xHolonym 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shadyeldamaty 🔗 Developer Docs: https://developer.holonym.id ●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬● 📢 Disclaimer: None of our content constitutes, nor is intended to act as financial advice. It’s important to always do your own research and due diligence before making any investment decision. Digital Assets and Cryptocurrencies are highly volatile and carry a considerable amount of risk.

Duration:: 37m
Broadcast on:: 31 Dec 2024
Audio Format:: other

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Today we have another wonderful guest, Shadi, co-founder of Hollanim on the show today to talk about a few different things that they're doing, how they are using human keys for usable privacy, security, and zero trust environments. We're going to talk about their silk wall that's in data that's about to come out, and a number of other exciting things that they are working on. Shadi, welcome to the show, man. Pleasure to have you here today. How are you doing? Hi, feeling great. Thanks for having me here, really excited to get into human keys and some of the topics today. Likewise, same here. To kick things off and to give people a little bit more context, I'm sure they'd be curious to who you are as well in your background. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe your story and how you ended up in the web 3 industry, and maybe how some of that also led up to you co-founding Hollanim? Yeah, absolutely. I like to think I have a little bit of a different story. I came into web 3 from a completely different angle. I wasn't mining. I wasn't trading. I wasn't collecting NFTs. I wasn't following Vitalik on Twitter. I wasn't doing any of that stuff that you typically hear, which is all great, by the way, and it's always great to hear different visual stories. But for me, I actually came from a different perspective. I was solving scientific problems. I was really interested in how we could use distributed network technology, specifically how we could have decentralized storage networks, preserve scientific knowledge for posterity, and to facilitate inter-institutional collaboration, specifically in the realm of neuroimaging data. Tell me also, how did that lead into Hollanim as well? Is there any that you meet up with? Because you've co-founded, right? So did you have any partners that you met up with prior and got connected with any kind of backstory there that led to its inception? Yeah. A little Easter egg behind Hollanim is my co-founder, Anak Kalsam. And he was doing his master's at Georgetown. I was finishing up my PhD, and I was working on this problem. How do we get a bunch of research organizations to share their data peer-to-peer? And it turned out that IPFS was a really great solution for that. So once I've learned about IPFS, I learned about wildcoin and smart contracts. And I got the idea, how could we actually build a research lab in the cloud? Instead of going off to a different institution and going down the typical path, what if I could bring back the era of the gentle man or gentle person scientists and be able to run my own research laboratory using coordination and infrastructure builds on Ethereum? So this inspired, along with some other needs of actually trying to solve how we can use IPFS, a hackathon at Georgetown, which attracted Donak, who was looking for interesting projects to contribute to. A little fast forward, we built something, it works, and it actually formed the foundation for my first startup, which is called Opsi. It was the first decentralized science or Desi Dow way back in 2019. And at that point, Donak was still contributing, but I'd kind of gone off and was really looking to see if it was possible to create this decentralized science ecosystem. Met a lot of success there. Later on, Donak reached out to Donak, who was still at Georgetown, I was like, "Hey, man, we'd love to have you come back and contribute." And he joined me at the Opsi Dow, where we worked on an identity credentialing system. That was one of the big bottlenecks that we were hitting, and Donak had some really great ideas on how to use on-chain reveal commit schemes for basically proving that you have an off-chain account or an off-chain attribute on-chain. So this is really powerful, for example, if you want to prove that an Ethereum address belongs to a verified academic. So a little bit after that, we realized, "Hey, people have actually invented these schemes back in 2016 and 2017, actually the early initiators of Gnosis. We're working on a very similar tech to sign in to Ethereum with Google." But back then, it was kind of not to me end your too many on, too much on backstory. But back then, it was like, people really didn't like the idea of what two accounts controlling your self-solving keys. So it didn't catch much traction. And we saw one of the big problems, too, was the privacy. There wasn't really any privacy on-chain if you're going to be doing this, putting basically commitments of email addresses on-chains, probably a bad idea. So that's how we got to zero-knowledge. Gnosis really led the charge there, created an architecture that allows us to create basically a zero-knowledge-proof protocol or proving any government off-chain credential or any credential really on-chain with full privacy for the user. Yeah, that's something I really like about HoloNem. There's this adage that goes around now, like web2 is connect your Google account, connect Facebook, and web3 is like connect to your crypto wallet. And I really think it is kind of going that direction with what we can do these days with privacy security, verifiability, and how that will likely be attached to like a digital identity or a wallet or whatnot. It's one thing I really like about HoloNem when I was looking into you guys is your focus on creating some of those digital rights around privacy, around security. Is that kind of like the core mission for HoloNem and is that the best way to kind of sum up what you guys are aiming to do? Thanks for the kind words, man. So our core mission for HoloNem is to make digital natural rights real. That's really what drives the technology that we build and what we really want to see. Now you might ask, what do I mean by digital natural rights? I think first it's useful to double-click on what natural rights are. These are the cornerstone of democratic societies all across the world, right? And natural rights are typically something that you take for granted, write your ability to freedom of expression, freedom. And these might mean different things to different people depending on their society or context, but freedom to life, liberty, happiness, these sorts of things. And they're often, we expect them to be something that is just commonplace all around the world. But it's typically governments or legal contracts and the institutions that are responsible for making these rights persistence, making them quote unquote inalienable and fundamental. So if you go back through the rich intellectual tradition behind natural rights and this idea of self sovereignty or agency of the individual, a lot of this was drawn from religious arguments that God had endowed humans with rationality. And anything that we could reason about is ethical or can be derived into a natural rights to do x, y, or z, like utilize animals for food like Aquinas argued, or the right to organize into a democratic collective like later, John Locke would argue. So what's interesting though is all of these perspectives, basically, you know, over time they matured into this idea that the only thing that really makes natural rights natural is that you can reason about them is that you can think about them and you can say, hey, these things are totally, you know, they make sense. They kind of fall out of logical argument. So of course, they're real. Today, I think there's a real risk of individuals and institutions and especially the rise of authoritarian sentiment, you know, who knows which way the world will go, but that really makes us look at natural rights and think, hey, you know, what really is underscoring or anchoring these rights to information, freedom of expression, property, etc. What's really anchoring them? So what we're interested in is how can we make these rights naturally inalienable resilience, fundamental universal, and we see decentralized distributed architecture as a great way to do that, where we can build these values into the technology. And that begins with crypto key self custody. That's what our big, the big drum that we're being. Got it. That's the next thing I wanted to ask you, like, how do you guys make this usable and accessible, you know, within Web3, within zero trust environments? I saw you guys have something called a human key. Can you kind of elaborate on what the concept of a human key is and how it can and probably will be used in some of your guys's applications, but even broadly, just in Web3, where that could take us? Yeah, sure. I would love to. So human keys are pretty much like typical private public key pairs, but instead of being derived from randomness, they're derived from human attributes. So this would be what you are, what you know, what you have. So security questions, biometrics, like a face scan, or maybe even something more more sci-fi, like the signaling of a thoughts or an intention collected by the BCI. It could also be, say, some special hardware that you keep on your person, that you keep physically secure or a combination of all the three. And so we call them human keys because, yes, they are derived from human attributes, but they're also intended to be human friendly. And this is how we get crypto into the hands of literally every single person on the planet, is we make it intuitively, making cryptographic self-coast, cryptographic key self-custody intrinsically intuitive. It's something that you don't need to think much about to just automatically be able to access a key, create a key that's derived from your attributes and be able to use it seamlessly with any technology, right, that you might be interested in, like, decentralized finance for being able to prove that you're a unique human or being able to create an identity to interact with governments or other types of social services. Okay. And then do you have, like, a specific network or protocol that creates these human keys as well? I saw you guys had something called the "mishti network" is that, you know, a key component or no pun intended, a key component in creating those human keys. Yeah, nice one. Yes. So one really important component of human keys or feature of human keys is that they're built on a resilient architecture. So the idea is if the company suddenly evaporated for whatever reason, would people still be able to access these self-custodial keys? The way that we do that is we leverage economic proof of stake, economic security of Ethereum proof of stake. And we use that to seed a decentralized network where operators are incentivized to provide this infrastructure. So when somebody, say, has to say somebody loses all their stuff and, you know, ends up, like, on a bus somewhere, getting off a bus somewhere in a different country, and they need to recover their account and their assets and be able to prove that, "Hey, you know, I'm from this country and have these credentials," they'd be able to just present themselves to the network, right? So being able to, with any device or any computer, they can access it and then be able to prove that they are who they say they are and derive that key. And that's only possible if we have this decentralized network of nodes that are incentivized to provide the service for people. And I think it's also worth double clicking on the importance of privacy and trust, where most, most biometric approaches typically involve trust in some hardware, whether it's a company server or an enclave or in some, you know, third-party software. With Mishti Network, what we've done is take that really sensitive human data that's used to create the human key and split it into pieces. So every node in the network is now a participant in a multi-party compute problem, where you're taking each of the individual pieces of data and we're computing something called the oblivious pseudo-random function. It lets you basically take a low entropy piece of data, say like a voice, which only has I think like 20 or 40 bits of entropy, depending on sampling frequency and the context it's recorded in, and be able to derive 128-bit key at minimum. So this makes the key really, really secure and because it's split into pieces and uses this MPC primitive called the OPRF, the oblivious pseudo-random function, none of the nodes in the network can actually see the inputs and the outputs. And it's only the user who receives all of those components of the key at the end of the computation that's able to reassemble the key into its functional form. Interesting. What type of data could be something that a human key could help create security and privacy for? Like could this be healthcare data? Could this be like metadata? Like what type of flavor ice cream I like? Or what I like to do on my Sundays? Could this be something a bit more hard-form like your ID or your passport for maybe global entry or when you're driving a car or something kind of like along those lines? Like what are some like the limitations of what that could be and could be represented by with a human key? Yeah, absolutely. All of the above, though I would say for really sensitive use cases, you would want to choose methods that are really hard to steal or say reproduce or guess, but they can be intuitive. They can be low entropy. So for example, one of my favorite examples is say like a funny dance. Like you can do like a dance that only you can do and say sing while you're doing it. And that's really hard for somebody to fully mimic. That's kind of a silly example. But in a more practical way, it could be, for example, a liveness check that's combined with say the flavor of your favorite ice cream, where the key will only be reconstructed if you can prove that it's you in front of the device that's accessed, that's attempting to reconstruct the key. And then also is able to say with your voice what that favorite ice cream is. And there's ways you can mix and match these different components together. The real key here, the puns will just keep it going. The real important thing here, though, is you can take something that's typically low entropy and make it high entropy so that if you try to brute force the key by making a bunch of yes, no guesses and testing to see if the key is valid, it's something that's very computationally hard to do. Even if say the original data like say a face scan or fingerprints would have less guesses if you just use them on their own to create the key. So that comes from the randomness that the network provides for the key derivation. And then are you guys starting to build out use cases for this already? I know that you mentioned a a silk wallet that you guys have in beta, kind of curious if that that's like a good example of where human keys can be workable and prevalent. But also if there's other use cases and things that you guys have maybe started to work on that you might think are very viable for a lot of people that may be coming. Yeah, we originally built MISTI Network to decentralize the key creation for wallets. So kind of like a Web3 auth, but instead of one application, one key, because with Web3 auth, if you're familiar, it's a decentralized key derivation network. And it actually exposes the private key to the application that creates it for you. So this makes it possible for an application to let you sign in with your social, like your Twitter account or your Google account. But for the application to be actually be able to sign stuff for you on your behalf, it needs to have access to the private key, which isn't great. So that means that each application gets an individual private key that you can only use with that app. And that's the same case for other services to like privy, where you have one key to one application. So what's more useful is if you have a key that you can keep private, that you don't need to trust a third party with, and that you can take across applications, especially if you're going to be using DeFi or where universality and reputation is really important. Once we hit that milestone, we show that this was possible. We started getting a lot of interest in actually a different use case of the OPRF, which is a verifiable privacy-preserving nullifier. A nullifier, if you haven't heard of it before, it's a primitive in semaphore, which is a tool used for creating zero-knowledge identity proofs. And basically what a nullifier does is let you, it's usually derived from some identifying, uniquely identifying information like a name, date of birth, maybe biometrics. And the nullifier is used in the creation of a zero-knowledge proof to prevent double spend of a zero-knowledge proof. So if you prove that you're a unique human for an airdrop with your nullifier, you can claim the airdrop only once and prove that you've only done so once. So it's really important for civil attacks and determining bots against humans and all of that. But the problem is most nullifiers don't have enough entropy, and a properly motivated adversary could make enough yes/no guesses to reconstruct, say, the outputs of a zero-knowledge proof that uses that nullifier to guess your name or date of birth or whatever data it's derived from. So Mishti has been getting a lot of traction amongst early interest amongst builders that are looking to upgrade their zero-knowledge proof derivation for identity to include this really secure nullifier creation. And it's something we're speaking in more detail with the PSC from the Ethereum Foundation Privacy Scaling Exploration Group and a few other projects that are looking at some novel use cases. Very cool. And before this, I know you mentioned that you have Silk Wallet in beta, and that'll be coming out pretty soon. What can you tell us about Silk Wallet? How will that utilize human keys as well? What are some of the benefits? Things make it different, unique. Yeah, so Silk is so Silk is built on Mishti. It allows you to basically interact with the Mishti network, create your human key, and then use your human key. So whether it's using your human key to create tokens, or mint NFTs, or even prove facts about your identity, like you're from a certain country or above a certain age, or actually not on a sanctions list, which is really useful for DeFi applications and real-world asset protocols that want to do business in the real world, or you actually need to show that you're meeting regulatory requirements for doing business. So Silk lets you do all of that with human keys. What makes Silk really special is its architecture. It's really a paradigm shift in how we think about crypto-key self-custody and crypto UX in general. So Silk is an embeddable iFrame. It's completely white labelable. You can put it on any website and make it look in any way. It allows users to really easily interact and onboard into an application, and it does so without making any sacrifices in security. And that's because of its two PC architecture. So what Silk actually does is it takes that human key and it splits it into two. So that's, even if the user has malware on their device, their wallet's not compromised. Because that second shard exists in a different network. And that network will only allow the user to reconstruct their keys. If they can prove that it's them, that's initiating that transaction. So you can implement policies where, if suddenly, a transaction request to withdraw a million dollars out of your wallet comes out of nowhere, you would have multiple redundancies in place that prevent that from happening. So it helps with blind signing attacks, especially when used with a hardware wallet. I think that's probably the best implementation of Silk, like if you're a whale and had a very large sum of money that you didn't feel comfortable putting in a hot wallets, but maybe didn't really love the UX of moving around all the time with a physical hard wallet. You could combine the two together to have a really nice UX for managing very sensitive accounts or sums of money. So Silk is coming out really soon. It's been in beta now for about almost a year. We've had to solve a lot of really difficult problems to make this possible where, you know, we're basically bringing multiple decentralized networks together to provide a sort of resilience, privacy preservation security that really hasn't been seen in wallet architecture before. And users are going to be able to start playing with it in January of 2025. So we're really excited to get this out in the world. And then it doesn't need like any browser extension or app downloads or anything kind of like that. No, we'll be developing some anyway for users that want to have that option and have like kind of a native vanilla experience. But the whole thing about Silk is it's more of a protocol. It's not a wallet as a service. It's a wallet as a protocol. So it can be embedded within a web application and hidden behind the scenes completely, right, where you can just interact with a game or a typical e-commerce website. But actually what you're doing is authenticating to that site and creating your human key and signing transactions with that. And that could just look like a checkout flow. Okay, that's very fascinating. And you said that's coming out in Q1, maybe January 2025. Yeah, all goes well. It'll be outs by the end of January 2025, but Q1 for sure. And then in terms of managing identity, I also saw you guys had something called zero-nim. How does that kind of allow people to prove identity without at the same time kind of revealing themselves, doxing themselves completely? What were some of the advantages to that? Yeah, so zero-nim started off as a project to help on-chain organizations, DAOs, raise money for political advocacy and lobbying, to political lobbying and civic advocacy. And our first client was Andrew Yang, where they raised a bunch of money through NFT sales and they wanted to put it towards their humanity forward campaign for addressing UBI and anti-poverty sort of stuff. But they had a problem, right, where they didn't check that the people donating money were actually from the US. And there are laws about how you could donate money in this way. So we found out about their problems. Somebody reached out to us and we put together a demonstrator that showed how you could have a zero-knowledge identity verification flow, so that everyone in the DAO would still remain anonymous. But off-chain, they could prove that they are American residents. And then they could gate a snapshot strategy to basically vote on how the treasury is spent while remaining in compliance. That's how we got started. Since then, Zironym has scaled to become a general purpose identity verification flow, particularly for proof of humanity, as well as proof of what we call clean hands, so that you are not an AML or sanctions list, which is some great utility for D5 protocols that want to be in compliance with the law, because maybe they're working with banks or more traditional financial service providers. Yeah, so Zironym is actually embedded within the Silk Wallet, and it lends some of its identity verification features into the UI flow for Silk. So, for example, proving that you're a human for air drops is something that many users are already using today, almost 2 million users in our ecosystem today, actually. And one other bit too is the security features around Silk. So, for example, adding additional 2FA mechanisms or multi-factor authentication around, say, transactions or spend limits could be done with the identity proofs with complete CK for privacy around those authentication mechanisms, which increases security, and also reduces the risk, for example, of, say, somebody like leaking your data or accessing your wallet without you knowing it. Yeah, it'd be nice if there was a way to protect against some of these large data leaks that are happening all the time. I feel like there's a couple massive ones every single year in the US. It's quite unfortunate to be cool if that data leaked was not like all of your data, and you had to have a key to, like, de-encrypt it and stuff. So, excited for how some of this can play into the web2 world as well. A fun question I want to ask, I saw an article on Hall and M recently talking, or you were talking actually about natural digital rights, and we talk a lot about this stuff in the real world too, but, you know, we're moving slowly and actually more quickly into a digital world as well. And I was curious about, you know, the metaverse and how expansive that's starting to get, and the games that are being played, and these micro versions of it, and select spaces, and for work environments, for fun play environments, and the importance of, you know, identity in some of those areas, and was curious maybe how Hall and M can help, you know, resolve some issues around identity, security, maybe even lack of interoperability in metaverse style use cases, maybe in the near future. And you guys kind of, like, worked on tackling some of those issues as well. Like, is this something that's also crosses over to the digital realm? Want to get your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. One comment I'd like to make is, just in general, that the metaverse has been here for a little while, even though we didn't call it that, right? Like, and I think Real ID really showed that that your driver's license could become, you know, just a card that you put into your wallets, like a digital credential. So a lot of the rights that we already take for granted, like, right to personhood, or right to, say, certain privileges within a country or civic infra, those are becoming digitized. And believe it or not, you know, the metaverse is building itself, whether we're working on it immediately in web three or not, it'll be here. So that's why it's especially important that we build a metaverse that takes the best of technology the most, the kind of maturity that we've reached at this point, with, you know, the benefit of the retrospect we have on what's worked and what hasn't worked, and all the leaks and all the security issues and quantum on the horizon as well. And so, you know, we really don't want to end up in a world like, for example, in William Gibson's Neuromancer, right, where these corporations basically just raced to monetize data as quickly as possible to mass data as quickly as possible. And a lot of the infrastructure of the internet was ignored along the way. And in Neuromancer, you have this really ironic situation where corporations are like dragons sitting on these large treasure trobes of gold, right, in the form of human data. And that data actually like can bridge into your mind. So they've actually monetized data going so far as to reach into your mind and your thoughts because you interact with the internet through, like, you know, your plugged in through your brain. And so, so it's fascinating because, you know, these companies like built this entire infrared to do this amazing stuff and, you know, unlock new commerce. But at the same time, it's still super vulnerable because it's a patchwork of protocols where privacy was never really kind of thought of as important. And we see that today, like, Gibson wrote this in 1984. But today, that's what we see is a patchwork of protocols that don't use best practices in cryptography to assure basic security and privacy for everyone is kind of a default setting. Now, for the metaverse, that's what we need is we need to be building this on, I'm not going to say specifically, zero knowledge technology, but at the very least privacy preserving technology that makes it very difficult for certain types of exploits, or to be able to just revoke somebody's right to privacy. That should be something that's done easily by either a bad actor or a company. So that's, that's just a comment on the side. But, you know, from our perspective, when it comes to the metaverse, we've been building all of the primitives that you would need to build digital societies, completely in digital worlds, whether for work or for play. Universal accounts having human keys that you can take with you across different meta worlds or metaverse worlds is definitely a prerequisite. Having controllable access over your identity and being able to port your reputation with complete control and privacy across these worlds is something that's going to be, we think, really, really important. And yeah, we're really excited to see what happens. One kind of unexpected area of the metaverse that I've seen recently is the emergence of special economic zones. So these are kind of similar to Belogies network states, but these are completely digital, let's say like subdomains within an existing country. Nigeria has been experimenting with this, where they basically create this like kind of like Estonia, where you can create a digital credential. And once you KYC and you verify, you can actually get a visa to Nigeria and get all the rights that come with doing business in Nigeria. So I think we're going to see more of this, because like, why wouldn't a country tap into new ways of tax revenue generation, especially if they can do so on existing digital commerce, that just hasn't been, you know, that hasn't been formalized or regulated in this way. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options, which is why with USA Auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply. When you need meal time inspiration, it's worth shopping king supers for thousands of appetizing ingredients that inspire countless mouthwatering meals. And no matter what tasty choice you make, you'll enjoy our everyday low prices, plus extra ways to save, like digital coupons worth over $600 each week and up to $1 off per gallon at the pump with points. So you can get big flavors and big savings, king supers, fresh for everyone, fuel restrictions apply. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, the world is more and more going digital and the metaverse is starting to really build itself and proliferate everywhere. So it raises a lot of questions. Even for me, like, how do we like secure our data and our identity? How do we prove that, especially when we're walking around as these avatars and wearing funky outfits and probably, you know, probably not even a human. You got to wonder like how do we build that into these types of environments and worlds and economies? And yeah, it's interesting. I think this is a good solution for it as well. So what's coming up on your guys is, you know, roadmap for the next year, you mentioned Silk Wallet in early 2025 here. What else might be coming up that you think people should keep an eye out for any cool updates, new features, partnerships, maybe some events you guys might be attending. What can you tell us? Yeah, 2025 is going to be for us the year of scaling. So doubling down on the research and development technology, the research and development directions that we've been focused on in the past couple of years have reached a point where they're ready for mainstream adoption. So this starts with the launch of Silk wallets this January, and also the launch of the MISTI main nets a little around the same time. And we're really, really excited towards the middle of the year when we can celebrate decentralization of the protocol, when we'll be completely live as an actively validated service and ABS on eigenlayer with incentivized operators providing the infrastructure for the human keys. So right now we actually have a developer rewards program that allow early adopters to basically earn a stake within the network before it launches by embedding Silk into their website and onboarding new users that perform actions within the ecosystem. So there's a couple other things that I'm not quite ready to announce just yet, but a lot of really, really big news coming down the line in the next couple of weeks and months actually. Awesome. And then you guys have presence on social media. Do you have any communities, LinkedIn's, telegrams, where where people go if they want to dive in, learn a bit more, maybe interact with you guys? Yeah, thanks for asking. You can go straight on holonym.id. You can find a lot of our information there. You can create wallets, create a human key. Also follow us on Twitter. We're just zero X holonym. And then you can find all of our information there. So do reach out if you have any questions or write us a note if you're interested in using this technology or want to learn more. Awesome, man. Shaddy, this has been a great episode. I've learned a lot about what you guys are doing with holonym. I'm sure a lot of people have as well. It's very exciting, very useful. Human keys, I think, from what you're explaining will be pretty big. Silk, you know, looking forward to that. I'll try it out myself. I think it'll be good to start building a little bit of a digital identity anyways. I think we all need to. But no, this has been great, man. Keep me posted on what's going on with holonym and the new year as things start to develop. And let's arrange another episode and we'll catch up for a part two and give people some more updates. Absolutely. I would love to. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time today. [ Silence ]