True Crime Podcast 2025 - Police Interrogations, 911 Calls and True Police Stories Podcast

I Am A Psychologist That Evaluates Serial Killers

I Am A Psychologist That Evaluates Serial Killers

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Duration:: 22m
Broadcast on:: 02 Jan 2025
Audio Format:: other

Okay, let's take a poll. How weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé? Right? The first time you hear it, you do like a double take. Your heart kind of flutters and before you know it, you go from "let's just enjoy this moment" to "we're planning a fall wedding." That's where Zola comes in. Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way. From free planning tools like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible. And with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want. Zola takes you from "save our day" to "thank so much" without breaking a sweat. From getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. The planning at Zola.com, that's Z-O-L-A dot com. Happy wedding! Reddit ask me anything, I'm the psychologist who evaluated Ted Bundy, and had him put in prison. Ask me anything, I'm Dr. L. Carlisle, and I evaluated Ted Bundy after his initial arrest. Bundy later escaped from prison and called me from a payphone to brag which I have taped on an audio recording. I have conducted extensive research on serial killers and interview Ted Bundy, the high-fi killers, Arthur Gary Bishop, Wesley Alan Dodd, Keith Jesperson, and many others. I retired as the head of the psychology department at Utah State Prison, and I'm now an author and public speaker. What would you say to someone who knows they have a mental illness but is afraid of being diagnosed? I feel sad for them because they may go through much of their lifetime running from their fear of the illness. It's better to take a clear look at it and make a decision as to how they will keep the mental illness from keeping them from enjoying life. Great, no bullshit answer to a good question. Ted Bundy had a reputation for being charming despite what he did, did you find that to be the case? Yes, he was charming but to a large degree it was political, he was intelligent, he had a nice smile and he was articulate, he could talk easily with people. When I first met him for the evaluation, he walked towards me and said, Hi, I'm Ted Bundy, you must be Dr. Carlisle, his hand was extended towards me, he had a smile on his face and he walked rapidly as if he was happy to so me. That is so disturbing, that some car salesman shit. What could the average person do to slow the rate of random spree killers? For one thing, we need to get better control over the bullying problem. This comment should be higher, the stress that people go through as the result of bullying can really warp a person. This reminds me of the thread where that kid stabbed his bully, and a lot of people jumped on the kid for handling his bully incorrectly. His actions were the result of six years of bullying with no help from the two. Okay let's take a poll, how weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé, right? The first time you hear it, you do like a double take, your heart kind of flutters and before you know it, you go from, let's just enjoy this moment, to we're planning a fall wedding. That's where Zola comes in, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way, from free planning tools like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team. Everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible, and with invites that can be completely customized, and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want. Zola takes you from save our day, to thanks so much, without breaking a sweat, from getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. Start planning at Zola.com, that's Z-O-L-A dot com, happy wedding! Much as or principle, luckily no one was killed. I had a discussion with an author of horror books about this phenomenon, it's sometimes enjoyable to be caught up in horror and come out unscathed in the end, in the alien, I identified with the hero and not the monster, does anyone identify with the monster? Is there any one thing that all serial killers have in common, also, with a hindsight view, is there anything that friends or family of a serial killer could have done to stop them? Most of the parents of these guys didn't know that anything was wrong, if a child feels he is succeeding in relationships, accomplishments, etc, and feels love in the home there is less of a chance that he will become a serial killer. Do you feel that the popularisation of these shootings and the media perpetuates the problem? To most people it doesn't, to a few, it does because they admire the guts and determination they believe it took to get revenge, they have so much anger and depression that they see these killers as justified, it's almost like suicide by cop. Feel a number of people and then get killed. That makes perfect sense I had never thought about it like that. Do you have any thoughts about how to deal with budding psychopaths when they're children? Is there a way to take a baby who is distant and unattached, or even a toddler who has begun abusing the family cat, and make them feel empathy, or at least gets them to fake it for society's sake? Good question, I think there are several things we can do. First, show an interest in them and in their attempt to learn, don't criticise to hard and not show love, listen when they talk, too many youth won't talk to their children because the parents give advice without listening, there are many, many things we can do, regarding a family cat, for example, is the child abusing the cat as displaced aggression towards someone and the family, or in school who is causing anger and bitterness? When my dad was getting his education as a psychologist, the predominant notion in abnormal psychology was that criminal aberration was almost all caused by environment, especially during childhood development, and little of it was inherited, a friend who's a psychologist at a local prison recently told me he thought it was about 60% inherited and 40% environmental. What do you think? I don't know, I worked 20 years in a prison and largely worked with violent offenders. I could see strong indications that the problem started in their childhood, environmental, and I could see a logical connection between those childhood experiences and later pathology. There are some cases where a child has been violent beyond what was seen in their environment, but a lot more good research need to be done to resolve this issue. Are there any particular clients where their behaviour or stories have shaken you, if so, do you mind- OK, let's take a poll, how weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé, right? The first time you hear it, you do like a double take, your heart kind of flutters and before you know it, you go from "let's just enjoy this moment" to "we're planning a fall wedding" that's where Zola comes in, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way, from free planning tools like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible, and with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want. Zola takes you from "save our day" to "thank so much" without breaking a sweat, from getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. You're planning at Zola.com, that's Z-O-L-A dot com, happy wedding! In telling us who and what they did say, you get used to what you hear, Arthur Gary Bishop told me the details about each boy he killed, I wasn't shaken by it because the guys in prison I worked with were like subjects in a laboratory, I didn't enjoy hearing the details about Art's homicide but I wanted to know what led up to the killing, how did he feel during the act and how it changed his thinking and his personality and why he continued killing. casually as on first name basis with serial killer, Art. Have you ever felt sympathy toward a killer, or after hearing their story did you ever think? Maybe you could understand how they turned out the way they did? I could usually see why they turned out the way they did, the purpose of my book I'm not guilty was to show how Ted became a serial killer, it's a psychological analysis of the development of the violent mind, there were many guys I worked with in prison that I liked, I often felt bad for what they did, but I didn't feel that they should not have been held responsible for what they did. Did you get the impression the serial killers actively enjoyed inflicting suffering on others, or were they indifferent to the feelings of others? It varies from killer to killer, Arthur Gary Bishop was executed for molesting and killing five children, he felt very bad about his crimes and he virtually set himself up to get caught, Wesley Allen Dodd. On the other hand, killed two boys as an experiment to see if he could actually do it, it was his plan to have sex slaves and keep some and kill the others. Thanks for the reply, I knew it was a simplistic question when I asked it, but I went ahead anyway, I hear the word sociopath thrown around a lot, and I think that's a very simplistic way of looking at these killers. How do you deal with all of the terrible stories you are told by each violent offender, does it get to you? Our prison has a set of gates at the entrance, I taught myself to shut our full prison stuff when I went out those gates and didn't consider prison problems until I drove back through those same gates into the prison the next morning, I was with Arthur Gary Bishop the evening of his execution and I was given the charge of talking to the press after, following that I went home to bed and slept, it can be done. Do you think that ability, the total ability to leave potentially traumatic events, at the gates makes you any closer to potentially being able to disassociate yourself from potential evil you may express in your own actions? You say it doesn't affect you, yet the ability to disassociate yourself from negativity is a try-off and seen in some of society's most evil people. Thoughts? I like your question, I, and most others I personally know who have learned to do this. I disassociate ourselves from evil, I try to be aware of my actions and the affect they have on others and my intent is always to do good and not harm, I don't always succeed, but I keep trying, I'm not disassociating from negativity, only a specific carry-over emotion, a person can worry and worry about something they can't change and it causes harm to their system if they don't get some level of control over it, or to be able to shut down the worrying, a negative process, doesn't make them more prone to evil. Do you agree with capital punishment and do you think it is a deterrent in any way to the criminal? Did you talk to the offenders about the punishment they received? This question came up frequently when I worked in the prison. Most of the inmates I talked to said that capital punishments was not, or would not have been a deterrent to their criminal behavior. Did you ever feel sad for a convicted killer, or realize that they couldn't help themselves, much like Frot his Langsep? How much time in prison was he sentenced to? I believe it was 115, if he hadn't tried to escape he could possibly have been out in two years, there's a question of whether or not Colorado had enough to convict him. Was Bundy the most frightening evaluation you've done? Number, I enjoyed evaluating Bundy, I loved my work as a psychologist at the prison and there were no inmates who were threatening to me, one guy did hint that when he got angry at someone, he wouldn't kill him, he would harm his children, I still wrote a very negative report on him, I enjoyed interviewing all the serial killers I worked with. What are your thoughts on the recent shootings that have been happening in the US? Is there a pattern as far as the killer's mental state? This is an area that we need to do a lot of research on, when a precedent has been set, it's easier for another person to do the same thing. The basis of so many of these killings is a combination of loneliness, anger, depression and feelings of despair. Have you ever interviewed a person who was later exonerated, and was there any difference between them and your average killer, not the famous ones? I worked with one person who was in prison for homicide. Okay, let's take a poll, how weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé, right? The first time you hear it, you do like a double take, your heart kind of flutters and before you know it, you go from "let's just enjoy this moment" to "we're planning a fall wedding." That's where Zola comes in, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way. From free planning tools like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible. And with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want. Zola takes you from "save our date" to "thank so much" without breaking a sweat. From getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. After planning at Zola.com, that's Z-O-L-A dot com, happy wedding! After any instant signs, not sure what you mean by instant signs, the people who worked with him in political campaigns didn't see any strong indications that he was a sociopath. Was Bundy ever diagnosed with any mental illnesses? What is his psychological profile like compared to others you have studied? Bundy was never diagnosed as having a mental illness until he came to prison, then he was viewed as a sexual sadist. The problem with the term mental illness is that it's too broad. It included all categories of depression, anxiety and such, was Ted psychotic? Was he insane? He was not insane because he understood the consequences of his actions. There were no voices that told him to kill and he didn't believe there were any conspiracies directed towards him. His psychological profile, that's an interesting question because it depends on what stage of life is being considered. Ted killed for a different reason than the happy face killer, Keith Jesperson, and so their psychological profiles are similar in some ways but different in other ways. What's the difference between psychotic and insane? Psychotic is like a person hearing voices that tell him to kill himself or others. Insane is a legal term referring to the person's capability of understand that his actions are against the law. That's a simple definition. Do these serial killers come off as pure evil when you sit down with them and talk for a while? I'm just wondering if there was any hope of rehabilitating them at any point and their adult lives before they started murdering people. If I picked three killers and had them come and talk to a group of college students, the students wouldn't see anything evil in them. They don't come across as monsters. It's not that they can totally fake it and seem to be good when they are not. It's more that each of us had a persona and a shadow, a good and a bad side to us. I once asked a group in a seminar I was conducting if good and evil can coexist within the same person. Most said it's impossible. I think we need to consider that people can have good and evil thought and action potential within them and they choose which one to develop. Thanks for the response. So let's say hypothetically these killers were released. What kind of odds would you give they would never kill a human again? Is killing literally an addiction for this type of person? I believe that you could let the majority of killers out of prison today they come in and most of them wouldn't kill again. However, I don't include gang members in this group. Were you happy at all, or relieved maybe, when Bundy was executed? Did you attend? I didn't feel happy or sad when Bundy was executed, however, had it been my choice, I would have kept him alive on condition that he revealed himself more. We need to understand better the step-by-step development of the mind or the serial killer. That's what I am trying to do through the books I'm writing. Have you read the stranger beside me by and rule? If so what is your feeling on her characterization of Bundy and his mannerisms? I have read the stranger beside me, it's been so long ago that I can't remember just what she said about his mannerisms. Tell me and I can comment on them. She described him as very charming, she was surprised when he was arrested, as he would walk her to her car every night and advise her to lock her doors. Yes, he was a lot that way, he caught up a snatcher when he and Liz were shopping. I also believe that he saved the life of a boy. He reportedly taught someone out of suicide when he was on the crisis line. One lady, the wife of an influential leader in the city, told me she would be happy to have Ted Bundy marry her daughter. This was all before he was convicted. Can someone be born a psychopath without the influence? Ok, let's take a poll. How weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé? Right? The first time you hear it, you do like a double take. Your heart kind of flutters and before you know it, you go from "let's just enjoy this moment" to "we're planning a fall wedding" that's where Zola comes in. Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way. And free planning tools, like a budget tracker, super necessary, and website, to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible, and with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want. Zola takes you from "save our date" to "thank so much" without breaking a sweat. From getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. Start planning at zola.com, that's Z-O-L-A.com. Happy wedding! So of environmental factors such as abuse or neglect, if so, what are the warning signs that a parent can identify and what can be done to stop them turning into the next head Bundy? Good question, I don't know, I think we need to look at the brain studies of small children who show psychopathic trays and do longitudinal studies on them. Have you ever grown to like one of your subjects innocent or not? I had a lot of friends among the inmates when I was at the prison. One of my best friends was a contract killer, it's not that I like evil things, it's that I like a person who can be open and friendly and treat people respectfully. Hi Dr. Carlisle, thanks for doing this, when Bundy called you after escaping, what was going through your head, why do you think he called you, was there a bit of an ego intellectual battle going on there, I understand you are both very intelligent men. I was excited about his call because I wanted to find out why he escaped, we talked for over fifteen minutes, when I went over the conversation later, I could have predicted that he would try to escape again, he called me Al and he wanted to be on a par with me so we could talk person to person and not a psychologist to inmate, I think he wanted to see me as a friend. Is it not obvious why someone would want to escape prison, I mean, it's prison. However, people have escaped from out prison when they were within a month or two of going home and they were allowed to go on work release. What are your thoughts on genetic influences for anti-social behavior, for example, MAOA, and whether or not someone should be held accountable for their behavior if they inherit a previous position, even should a person be genetically predisposed, I believe that everyone needs to be held accountable for their behavior, to me, to say otherwise is predetaminism an obviates choice. What was the most chilling thing Ted ever said to you? Remember, he was still saying he was innocent of having committed any crime when I evaluated him so he didn't say anything that was really chilling, however, there was one point during the interview when he was talking about his girlfriend going out with another guy and he said, "That was the last straw, the look of hate in his eyes at that point was intense." Was there anything about them that you found particularly surprising when interviewing the serial killers? What were the most unusual traits that they all had in common? I have interviewed in depth several serial killers, what was surprising was that they were so easy to talk to, they were open about themselves, a common element was emotional vulnerability as a child and making wrong choices after that. Do you think Bundy might have had a dissociative disorder? An excellent question, I don't think he had a dissociative identity disorder, multiple personality disorder, but I think he dissociated to some degree during the crime, the process begins prior to actually having the victim, he didn't dissociate to the degree that he wasn't aware of what he was doing, the dissociation ends when he has completed the cycle. Was there ever a point where you found out, in hindsight, a subject was stringing you along? How did you handle that, edit, accidentally a word? Many times, you win some and lose some and you live with it, it's expected because some people are extremely good at faking it. Bro, you made it to the end, you're a ducking beast, thanks for watching mate, make sure to smash that like button and subscribe for more high quality content.