True Crime Podcast 2025 - Police Interrogations, 911 Calls and True Police Stories Podcast

Alek Minassian — FULL police interrogation of Canadian Terrorist Attacker CREEPY!

Alek Minassian — FULL police interrogation of Canadian Terrorist Attacker CREEPY!

Alek Minassian was arrested as the driver in the deadly 2018 Toronto van attack, a careful and skillful Toronto police detective interrogated him for close to four hours. Minassian couldn’t keep much to himself. This is the full interrogation video, as released to me by order of Justice Anne Molloy of Ontario Superior Court in response to a request National Post made, joined by other news organizations. For the sake of viewing ease, lengthy scenes when no one is in the interview room and no one is speaking have been deleted. The deletions are marked by a “static” screen effect.

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Duration:: 3h 3m
Broadcast on:: 30 Dec 2024
Audio Format:: other

Hey there, Ritual here to give a big shout out to you for making it through the Hekta holiday season. The magic of those family moments? That was you. And now there's new milestones to prep for in 2025. This new year, check Clean Quality Pregnancy Nutrient Support Offer to Do list with Ritual. We've done the research to create science-backed pregnancy support like our prenatal multivitamin, natal choline, and fertility support, all designed to be taken alongside each other. But don't just take our word for it. We're also third-party tested for microbes and heavy metals and clean label projects certified. So whether you're trying, thinking about trying, or already there, we don't have to tell you that prioritizing yourself can be the hardest part. That's why we're helping you get started today with 30% off a three-month supply for a limited time at ritual.com/podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Big shout out to you for making it through the Hekta holiday season. This new year, get Clean Quality Pregnancy Nutrient Support Offer to Do list, including Ritual's best-selling essential prenatal multivitamin, designed with 12 traceable key ingredients to support a healthy pregnancy. With big changes coming up, take the small steps now and start today with 30% off a three-month supply at ritual.com/podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. All right, for the record, my name is Detective Rob Thomas. My badge number is 3917 and I'm attached to the 1236 crime unit polygraph. Today's date is Monday, April 23, 2018, time by my clock is approximately 10.46 in the evening. I'm presently at 32 Division on Ellers' Leap, a drive, I believe, second floor, soft interview room. This is the only soft interview in the building. My purpose for being here today is to interview Joan by the name of Alec Minicean, Alex Bel-A-L-E-X, last name, M-I-N-A-S-S-I-A-N, date of birth of November 3, 1992, with respect to an incident that occurred earlier today on Yonge Street between Shepherd and Finch. It's my understanding that Mr. Minicean was arrested later this afternoon, initially on nine counts of first-degree murder, that's been subsequently upgraded to ten counts of first-degree murder and fifteen counts of attempt murder. He's presently in custody here at 32 Division in the conversation that I have with Mr. Minicean yesterday, his final means meant to offend the individuals involved in this investigation families, the victims, or for that matter, Mr. Minicean himself or his family, my only purpose for conducting this interview today is to come to some understanding of the involvement in this incident. And you can just have a seat in the corner right over there, okay? Hold on. Hey there, Ritual here to give a big shout out to you for making it through the hectic holiday season. The magic of those family moments, that was you. And now there's new milestones to prep for in 2025. This new year, check Clean Quality Pregnancy Nutrient Support Offer to Do list with Ritual. We've done the research to create science-backed pregnancy support like our prenatal multivitamin, natal choline, and fertility support, all designed to be taken alongside each other. But don't just take our word for it, they're also third-party tested for microbes and heavy metals and clean label projects certified. So whether you're trying, thinking about trying, or already there, we don't have to tell you that prioritizing yourself can be the hardest part. That's why we're helping you get started today with 30% off a three-month supply for a limited time at ritual.com/podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. After completing the renovation, follow up with the customer to ensure their satisfaction and address any remaining concerns. Provide maintenance tips and guidance to help them preserve the results of the renovation for years to come. Thank you for joining us for this Pro Tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary. Ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, will not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin Decor. From tile to wood to stone, Florin Decor has more styles and job lock quantities of Schluter, Mape, Layde Crete, and other brands Pro's trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin Decor. Now open in Littleton. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. Prioritize quality craftsmanship and materials to deliver results that exceed the customer's expectations. Attention to detail and superior workmanship, we'll leave a lasting impression and ensure customer satisfaction. Thank you for joining us for this Pro Tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary. Ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, will not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin Decor. From tile to wood to stone, Florin Decor has more styles and job lock quantities of Schluter, Mape, Layde Crete, and other brands Pro's trust. You'll see a whole new way to wow with Florin Decor. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, how are you? Good. Drink water? Sure. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. How are you feeling? I'm good. You're feeling okay? My name's Rob Thomas. Nice to meet you. How are you? How are you? You doing okay? Yeah. You probably have better days than this, I guess eh? Yeah. Well, I have a little shake-in to be honest. Yes, shake-in to be honest. It's how usual they are, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alec, do you mind if I call you Alec? Yeah, sure. What are your friends normally calling you? Alec. Alec. Alec, my name's Rob Thomas, so I want you to call me Rob from here on your own, okay? Okay. Is that okay? Oh, okay. Alec, I want you to understand something. I'm a senior detective with the Toronto, please. Do you understand what that means? Uh, yes. You don't have a police officer? Yes. Okay. I don't wear a uniform. I wear a suit and tie because of the type of workout that I do, but although I'm in a suit and tie, I'm an actual police officer, okay? Um, and I'm one of the senior investigators on this case, okay? I got called in for this specific case because of what's happened and involvement and everything else that's been going on, okay? Before we get started, I want you to know that we're being videotaped and audiotamed, okay? Do you know what I mean by that? Yes. Everything I see and do is being captured. Exactly. Yeah. On your own video. Okay? No. Uh, here's what I want to do. Alec. Um, I want to talk to you, okay? Um, we're going to spend a good deal of time, you got to know. It's important that I talk to you, all right? Um, I'm going to ask you questions. Okay. Can I ask you questions about, uh, your background, your education, uh, your relationships? Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. Let's talk about the work area clean and organized throughout the renovation process to create a positive impression and minimize stress for the customer, regularly clean up debris and dust to maintain a safe and comfortable living environment. Thank you for joining us for this pro tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary, ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, will not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin de Corle. From tile to wood to stone, Florin de Corle has more styles and job lot quantities of Schluter, Mape, Leidicrete, and other brands, Pro's Trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin de Corle. Now open in Littleton. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. Before starting any renovation project, take the time to plan meticulously. Assess the customer's needs, budget, and timeline to ensure a smooth and successful renovation process. Thank you for joining us for this pro tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary, ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, while not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin de Corle. From tile to wood to stone, Florin de Corle has more styles and job lot quantities of Schluter, Mape, Leidicrete, and other brands, Pro's Trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin de Corle. Now open in Littleton. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. After completing the renovation, follow up with the customer to ensure their satisfaction and address any remaining concerns. Provide maintenance tips and guidance to help them preserve the results of the renovation for years to come. Thank you for joining us for this pro tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin de Corle Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary, ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, while not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin de Corle. From tile to wood to stone, Florin de Corle has more styles and job lot quantities of Schluter, Not Pay, Layde Crete, and other brands Pro's Trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin de Corle. Now open in Littleton. With your family and friends, work, travel, I'm going to ask you questions about what happens today, okay? You don't have to answer those questions if you don't want, okay? You understand them? Yes. But if you do decide to answer my questions, okay, I just ask that you do two things for me. Okay. The first thing is I ask that you treat with respect, okay? I promise to treat you with respect throughout the entire night, okay? All I ask is you do the same for me. Is that okay? Yes. Okay. And the other thing I ask, and I've been doing this a long time, okay, and I typically never have any problems with people like that. I don't expect to have a problem with you today, but if you do decide to answer my questions, would you do me the favor and just speak from the heart, okay, and just be truthful. That's all I ask. Does that sound fair? Yes. Is that okay? Okay. No. My understanding is earlier today, there was an incident and you ultimately got arrested. Do you remember that? I do remember getting arrested, okay. Do you remember it was a uniformed police officer who arrested you, so in other words, he was a police officer in a uniform? Yes. I remember he had a uniform, yeah, okay, and I know there was a bit of an altercation. We'll get into that, but basically I just want to kind of cover off a few points before we get started. My understanding is that that incident, the time that you got arrested, you were honored near the area of the Young Street earlier today, is that right? And a police officer told you that you were going to be placed under arrest, and he placed you under arrest. Do you remember that? I remember that. Okay. Do you remember what you arrested you for? I believe I may have been arrested for something similar to murder. Okay, I believe it was originally you arrested for attempted murder, and subsequent to that, the officer placed you in handcuffs, is that right? Yes. Yeah, and then he placed you in the back of his car. Correct. Correct. And then you were transported and you were delivered here in a police car to 32 Division. Do you remember that, and following that, you were taken into the building, and you spoke to, I believe it was a gentleman, and he's known as a staff sergeant. He would have had three strikes on his shoulder with a crown. He would have asked you questions about your medical history, whether or not you were suicidal, whether or not you understood why you were being placed under arrest. I remember that. Okay. So, when you were placed under arrest, did the officer read anything to you? I remember being read the signs on the left hand wall, stating my rights. Okay. Okay. So, you would have been read either at the time you were arrested, or certainly when you got into the police station, you were providing your rights to counsel, is that right? So, what if it's something like this, you're going to be arrested for an attempted murder? It's my duty to inform you that you have the right to retain his right counsel without delay. You have the right to telephone and lawyer wish. You also have the right to... Yeah, I know. I'm starting to come back. Okay. Let me just finish here, because it's important to understand this. You have the right to telephone and lawyer wish. You also have the right to free advice from a legal aid lawyer if you charge him with a fence. You may apply the Ontario Legal Aid Plan for assistance 1-800-265-0451 as a toll-free number that will put you in contact. With a legal aid duty counsel lawyer for free legal advice right now. Do you remember that? Yeah, I know. I remember that. Do you remember the officer reading you that? To be honest, I encountered various police officers. I don't remember which one read me that... Okay. All right. But nevertheless, you were read... You were read... We call that caution. You were read that caution. Yes. Actually, now that you mentioned a word caution, I remember hearing the words of primary caution and secondary caution. Okay. Great. Okay. Great. Okay. That's just because a lot of people can remember those words. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. Clear communication is key to a successful renovation. Keep the customer informed at every stage of the project, addressing any concerns or questions promptly to maintain trust and satisfaction. Thank you for joining us for this pro tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary. Ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, well not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin Decor. From tile to wood to stone, Florin Decor has more styles and job lock quantities of Schluter, Mape, Layde Crete, and other brands Pro's trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin Decor. Now open in Littleton. Welcome to Pro Tips for the Pro's brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. In this series, we'll explore essential advice for professional contractors to deliver outstanding renovation results. Let's dive in. Keep the work area clean and organized throughout the renovation process to create a positive impression and minimize stress for the customer. Regularly clean up debris and dust to maintain a safe and comfortable living environment. Thank you for joining us for this pro tip on planning thorough renovations. Stay tuned for more expert advice brought to you by Florin Decor-Littleton. A lot of people tolerate ordinary. Ordinary bathrooms, kitchens, entryways, well not on your watch. If you're a pro, you've got a new partner in town, Florin Decor. From tile to wood to stone, Florin Decor has more styles and job-block quantities of Schluter, Mape, Layde Crete, and other brands Pro's trust. Come see a whole new way to wow with Florin Decor. Now open in Littleton. Okay, so that's what I read you is what we refer to as a primary caution. So you don't let me just get this straight. You're not sure if you remember the police officer reading you those rights or if you were read those, that primary caution in the building, is that right? Actually, I'm pretty sure I was read the caution inside that room within the building with the camera and the desk. Right, right. So we call out the booking hall. Do you know what it is that I just read you, what was read to you when you were inside the booking hall? Do you know what that means? I believe, to my investor's signing, it means, as you said before, the rights that I have, my right to counsel. Right. Do you know what counsel means? A lawyer or attorney. Perfect, exactly. Yeah. So what that means is actually a couple things. It means that you can call a lawyer. What it means, at the time you're placed under arrest, you're being placed under arrest for attempted murder. But that primary caution means that you can speak to a lawyer, okay, or we call it counsel. If you don't have a lawyer or counsel of choice, it means that you can call a free lawyer. We call that duty counsel or legal aid, okay, and the 1-800-265-0451 is a toll-free number that you can call to speak to duty counsel or legal aid for free legal advice. Do you understand what that means? Yes. So it basically means you can call a lawyer. If you don't have a lawyer, you can speak to a free lawyer, right? What it also means is that if you were charged with an offense, so if you were charged by the police for a crime, and you can't afford a lawyer, okay, you can apply to the government to pay free lawyer. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Now, my understanding is the officers then provided you a secondary caution? Yes. Okay. It would have been something like this. You're going to be charged with attempted murder. You're not obliged to say anything unless you wish to do so, but whatever you do say may be given another's. Do you understand what that means? Yes. It means that I'm not required to speak, but anything I say can and you will be used against me. Yeah. That's sort of the American version of the Miranda rights in Canada. Yeah. I've watched too much. You've watched a lot of TV programs, like crime drama programs on TV. It's one of the, I used to watch a lot of CSI on the show, but yeah, it's one of the states. They call that the Miranda. We'll be used against unicorn law. In Canada, we're a little bit different than the United States. I like to think we're a lot different actually than the United States. What we have in Canada is a different type of caution, anything that you say can be entered into evidence. So anything that you say to me today, because we're being videotaped and not your take, a judge can watch that. Okay. And you can listen to what it is you're saying. Okay. All right. Now, did the officers read any other questions? I don't remember being write any other questions, to be honest. Okay. I want to read one more to you. And it goes like this. If you've spoken to any police officer or to anyone in authority, or if any such person has spoken to you in connection with this case, I want to clearly understood that I do not want it to influence you in making a statement. Yes. Actually, I do remember being read that. You do? Okay. When do you remember being read that? In myself, by a non-uniformed officer, he was dressed formally. It was similar to you all I see at a certain time. Yes. I believe he may have been a detective. Okay. Well, that makes sense. Do you understand what that means? Yes. It means that any statement, whenever I'm making a statement, it shouldn't be affected by something that one cop said to me. It should just be simply whatever I feel is the best as my defense. You're actually right. You know what? You hit a ring on the head. You know what? I thank you for that. That's very important. Yes. Basically, what it means is that if you've spoken to any police officer, and you may not have spoken to a lot of police officers, but I know a lot of police officers have spoken to you today. Coming from the uniformed officer who arrested you right through to the booking officers who collected your information when you came into the station, right up to the officers who came down into the cells and advised you for the charges that were going to be late, you spoke into a lot of police officers today. Am I right? Am I right? Yes. How many in total do you think you spoke into it? I would say at least five. At least five. Okay. What that means, that caution that I gave you. What that means is that if anybody, if any of those officers or anybody else for that matter, have said to you that you have to talk to me, okay? That's incorrect. Do you understand that? Yes. Okay. You don't have to talk to me, okay? So if anybody has told you that you have to speak to me, I don't want you to listen to what they said, all right? I'm assuming nobody's threatened you or maybe any kind of promise? No. Nobody's threatened you? No. Nobody's made promises for you, okay? We call those inducements. So nobody's offered you any type of inducement, I hope, or anything like that, okay? So basically what it means is that you don't have to listen to what the police have said to you previously prior to you meeting me here today, and that if you do decide to talk to me, that it just be, like I said, from the heart and it'd be truthful. We call that being voluntary. Does that make sense? Yes. That makes a lot of sense, okay? Now, in addition to that, I just want to clarify one more thing. Did you speak to the police and tell them what happened today? Sorry, I just need a minute to think about that. Are you asking if I in any way confessed? Well, I'm asking if you, yes, if you confessed, or if you made a statement at all to any other point, I never made any significant statement about any events that occurred before I was arrested. Great, great. Okay, so if you did have any conversation with any police officer prior to being brought into this room, all right, and that includes making a statement to our confession, okay? I want you to ignore what you've said, okay, and I don't want you to refer back to that conversation, okay? And what I mean by referring back, I don't want you to tell me about any conversations you've had with any other police officers, okay? What I'd like to do is start fresh, you call this a clean slate, okay? So from here on in, okay, I want this to be a fresh start, does that make sense? Yes. Pretty straightforward, okay. Now, when the officer arrested you, did he put handcuffs on you? Yes, right, and my understanding is the handcuffs were behind your back? Yes. Okay. And he did, he patted you down, did he, what do you mean by that, did he search you? I remember, I remember being searched, actually, I remember later on as other officers came in. His stood up, brought to the cruiser, and in his eyes I was leaning on the car, I remember at that point I was being searched. Okay. All right, and so as far as the search is concerned, what extent were you searched? In other words, what did they search, what did the officer do? It was packed out of the entire body to make sure there was no weapons or anything like that on me. Okay. I remember that they were searching for weapons and things like that. Because they, I remember they were searching my pockets, they were feeling my chest, my back, my legs, so that would be an indication that they felt I had weapons on me. Okay. Did the officer say anything while they were doing this? I don't remember exactly what they said, other than just stand still. Okay. I don't know why it's not. Did anybody tell you that they were searching for weapons? I do remember, although I don't remember the exact words, I do remember there was a mention of being searched for weapons. I mean, they may not have been speaking directly to me, but they may have been speaking to each other. Okay. Did they take your clothes off? No. Where your clothing come off? No. Okay. And so then from there you were placed in the car? Correct. Okay. All right. And how many police officers were in the car while you were being driven to the station? Two. Two. Okay. And I'm presuming they were both in the front? Yes. Okay. And did you have any conversation with the police officers? No. Okay. And then you arrived here at the station? Yes. Okay. And how long have a drive was on? About ten minutes. Okay. And did it appear to be a direct route? Yes. In other words, they didn't stop for coffee or anything like that? No. Okay. All right. And then you came into a garage? Yes. Okay. We call that the selling port. That's what that we refer to that is. And I understand you were taking out of the back seat of the car? Yes. And then you were led to a desk. Yes. And there was an officer, a senior officer, a high ranking officer, was behind that desk. You probably didn't know that, but we call that officer, the officer in charge of the station. Do you understand that? Yes. And he would have asked you some questions? Yes. Okay. And my understanding is those questions dealt specifically with any medical issues? Yes. Right? And whether or not you understood why you were being placed under arrest? Yes. And whether or not you understood your rights to counsel or your right to call a lawyer? Yes. Okay. And then from there, my understanding is you were taken to the cell area? Yes. Okay. And you were placed in a cell. And my understanding is that cell is a bathroom. Has a toilet? Has a toilet and a sink? Yes. And then following that, now there were a couple of other events that are important. One was, my understanding is you were given an opportunity to speak to a lawyer? Yes. Okay. And you indicated to the officers that you didn't have a lawyer, correct, and that you didn't know who to call, correct. And so the officers offered you an opportunity to speak to duty counsel, which is that free legal service that I talked about. Correct. And my understanding is you spoke to duty counsel, correct, okay. And you did that in private, is that right? Correct. In other words, there wasn't anybody listening to your conversation. Correct. Okay. Now I don't want you to tell me what the lawyer said, but did you understand what the lawyer was telling you? Yes. Okay. Are you satisfied with the information that he told you? Yes. Okay. Now following that, my understanding is, and I might have gotten the sequence of events mixed up so correct me if I'm wrong, there's been a lot going on today and I've been very busy. But my understanding is at some point, if I'm not mistaken, a police officer in a suit came down and he told you that he updated you with respect to the charges that were going to be laid. Yes. Okay. Do you remember what he said to you? Yes. So initially, originally the charges were nine counts of first-degree murder, then later on it got updated to 10 counts of first-degree murder, plus 15 counts of attempted murder. Exactly. Yes. That's my understanding. So my understanding is, as the night progressed, and as we were learning more information, it came to our attention that seven people have died, sorry, nine people have died, I apologize, as a result of the incident that occurred on Yonge Street. And so subsequent to that, my understanding is the officers came down and they spoke to you to advise you that the charges would be upgraded to nine counts of first-degree murder. Do you understand what first-degree murder is? It's a pre-mediated murder and completely intentional and considered to be what's known as "incold blood." Well, yeah, that's a fairly precise way of describing it. We call it premeditated. It means premeditated. Do you understand what premeditated means? Yes. It means you would mean that someone planned for that murder in advance, right, planning and deliberation. In other words, if somebody committed first-degree murder, they would have took the time out to think about what they were going to do, sit down and deliberate over the plan. So in other words, they would sit down and go over the details of the plan, figure out what it is they were going to do, how they're going to execute the plan, so on and so forth to commit a murder. Plan and deliver it. That's what it means. So there's a lot of thought and energy that goes into planning to kill somebody. That's what first-degree murder is, okay? So initially it was nine-counsel first-degree murder, and do you remember the officer that told you that? I believe if I remember correctly, it was the officer wearing the suit. The officer wearing the suit who walked you in here today or walked you into this room? Yes. Okay. All right. Now, did he tell you that you could speak to a lawyer again? Yes. Okay. Did he tell you your rights to counsel again? Yes. Okay. And in answer to that caution, that first caution, do you understand what you were being arrested for? Yes. Okay. Did you understand that the charges were now being upgraded to nine-counsel first-degree murder? Yes. And did you understand that you could call the lawyer again? Yes. Okay. And what did you say to the officer in response to calling the lawyer again? I think I simply just acknowledged I said, "Okay." Okay. My understanding is he asked you, "Do you want to speak to a lawyer again? Do you remember what you said to him?" I believe I said, "No thanks." Okay. That's right. The reason I gave that response was because since I had already spoken to a lawyer very recently, I felt that I wouldn't be given new information at that point. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. That was my understanding. Now, again, I might have the facts mixed up, just in terms of the chronology. But my understanding is, did somebody come down and take photos of you? Yes. Okay. Was that... Okay. Well, let's move on. It actually happened twice. Okay. And initially, the first time it happened, it was very, at the very beginning of when I got arrested. Right. I sat down in the chair, I had front, left, right, then later on in the evening, I again had... I was standing up in front of that chair and had left or right, front, and back. Okay. Well, let's talk about that. So the first time you had your photo taken, front, left or right, where was that done? Inside the room with the camera and the fingerprint machine, about 10 steps away from the cell block I was in. Okay. So they took you out of the cells? Yes. Into what we call the print room? Yes. Yeah. So the booker would have... We call him the booker, the individual that takes your photographs and takes your fingerprints. We call him the booker. Did they take your fingerprints at all? Yes. They did, eh. Okay. It was at the same time that I initially had my picture taken. Okay. All right. Okay. And then from there you were returned to the cell? Yes. Okay. And then your photographs were taken once again, or you were photographed once again after that. So you were photographed a second time? Yes. Okay. And where did that take place? In the same room. In the same room. Okay. Was it by the same officer? No. It was by another officer? Yes. Okay. And this time you were standing? You said? Yes. Okay. And then you were sitting? Yes. When you were photographed, the second time you were photographed, you were standing? Yes. Okay. And the officer who took the second set of photos, what was he wearing? He was uniformed, in a uniform, okay. And was he the individual who took care of the cell? Yes. Okay. And then my understanding is you were turned to the cell? Yes. Okay. And then at some point, you also turned over your clothing? Yes. Okay. When did that happen? That happened at the very beginning when I got, when I was brought to the police station. Okay. All right. That happened at the very beginning, so at what point? Was it? That was, initially before I was put into my cell, I was in some other holding room. Right. That just had some chair there. At that point, I had all my clothes taken off, just to be seized as evidence. Okay. And then I was given my underwear back, I put a con, and then I was given an orange jumpsuit, and then two minutes later, I was taken out of the orange jumpsuit, and then I was given this a white bodysuit. Okay. And that was before you went into the cell. Correct. Okay. So let's talk about that for a minute, so when they took your clothes off, you were put in a room you said? Correct. Okay. And the officers explained to you why they were taking your clothes? As evidence. As evidence. Okay. And also, just because of concerns that I might have something within the clothes. Okay. So you were, we call that a level three search. Yeah. Actually, now that you mentioned that, I remember that exact term mean use. Level three search. Yeah. Yeah. That's where we're dealing with individuals that we don't know, because we don't know either. We're involved in relatively serious events, which unfortunately you are. And so we do it for our safety, as well as your safety, as well as to ensure that we're collecting, you know, all the evidence we possibly can, right? Because the idea at the end of the day is we just want to come to the truth and see what's going on. That's the bottom line, right? So we have to do these things, and sometimes they're intrusive, but we try to do it in a manner that is as dignified as possible. So when you, when you had your clothes taken off, were you completely naked? I was only completely naked for about ten seconds. Okay. All right. And did you have some privacy in this room? This room? No. The room you had, they took your clothes off. I should be honest, I don't remember. I think there may have been some officers there. Okay. Because my face was towards the wall the entire time. Okay. All right. How many officers were there? I think about four. Oh, four? I don't remember the exact number to be honest with you. Were there any female officers? I don't believe so. Okay. All right. Was anything video taped? I don't remember seeing a camera in that room. Okay. All right. Okay. But nevertheless, you were only completely naked for about ten seconds. Correct. Okay. And then they gave you an orange jumpsuit? Yes. Okay. And then you were, then you were brought to the cells, you spoke to a lawyer, you photographed to the cell. Well, actually, I was switched into this white bodysuit before being taken into my cell. Because that, I was only in that orange jumpsuit for about two minutes. Oh, okay. Okay. So the reason behind putting you into a white jumpsuit, are they telling? I believe, if they did tell me, I don't remember the reason. Okay. Okay. The reason would have been to keep your feet protected, right? Because I don't think you had, you had the boots on the orange jumpsuit. Oh, yeah. I remember they said something about that. There wasn't any footwear. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. So from there, you went into the white jumpsuit, then you were put place in the cells, you spoke to your lawyer? Yes. Okay. And then you were photographed twice? Correct. Okay. In addition, the officer came down to advise you that you'd be charged with nine counts of first degree murder? Right. Yes. Okay. And my understanding is, I believe it was the same officer. At some point in time, he then came down to advise you that you're going to now be charged with 10 counts of first degree murder and 15 counts of attempted murder. Correct. Okay. And during the sequence of events, at what point did that officer come down and tell you that? The upgraded charge was after I spoke to my lawyer. Okay. How many times did you speak to a lawyer? Once. Okay. So it would have come after the first time you spoke to the lawyer. It would have come after the officer's telling you you were being upgraded. The counselor would be upgrading to nine counts of murder. But we would have been, it would have been, it would have been sometime after you spoke to your lawyer that they told you that you were now being charged with 10 counts of murder, first degree murder and 15 counts of attempted murder. Correct. Correct. Okay. Did the officer explain to you again the, the, your rights as far as calling a lawyer? Yes. Okay. And what did you say in the response to that? I simply said, okay. Okay. Anything else? No. My understanding is the officer's asked you, do you wish to call the lawyer? Yes, he did. So the second time I said no thanks and the reason I, as I said before, the reason I gave that answer was just because I had very recently spoken to our lawyer. So I thought that I wouldn't be given any additional information at that point. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Well, here, here's, here's what I'm telling you here today, support your understand what I'm saying. You're going to be charged with 10 counts of first degree murder. Okay. As well as 15 counts of attempted murder. I've read you your rights to counsel, your caution, secondary caution, so forth. Do you wish to speak to a lawyer? The choice is yours. Yes. I will speak to a lawyer. You want to speak to a lawyer? Yes, please. Okay. Uh, did you have a lawyer or did you want to speak to duty counsel? I'd like to speak to duty counsel, please. Okay. Can you just hold on? Just, can you sit tight for one second? I'm just going to just exit the room for one minute. Okay. If you just sit tight, I'll be right back, and then I'll take you down, and we can do that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we're going to be right back, and then we're going to be right back and then we're going to be right back. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we're going to be right back. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we're going to be right back. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is just an audio recorder here. And does it take this with me, okay? I'm not going to have any trouble with you, right? No. You promise me that? Yes. Okay. I appreciate that. Okay. Okay. Alex has been faced in the remainder crime unit, number one, and then we're going to call the call. The call has been made to duty council and we're just waiting for a call now. Just give me a sec. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, before we go any further, just tell me what happened from the time we left this room until the time we came back. What took place? My lawyer told me not to answer. I understand that. Okay. And I'm glad you told me that. You know why? Because that tells me you understand what you're right, sir. Okay. But you need to understand something. Okay. We the police have a job to do. Okay. The job includes collecting evidence, speaking to people, trying to understand and uncover what's happened, what took place, and asking questions. And we're obligated to sit down and speak to people like yourself. We're in this position and ask you questions. All right. Your lawyer's right. You don't have to answer any questions. Okay. But you need to understand something, Ellen. Okay. I still have to ask you questions. Okay. Ellen, I'm going to ask you questions. All right. And I'm going to talk. Okay. And I'm not doing that to make you feel intimidated or to make you scared or to say things that you don't want to hear. Okay. But the bottom line is we have a very difficult job to do. Okay. And this is a very, very important matter that we're doing with you today. All right. So I'm going to ask you questions. If you don't want to answer them, you can tell me you don't want to answer them. Or you don't have to say anything at all. I totally understand that. But as long as we can still maintain that respect that we talked about at the beginning, is that cool? Yes. Is that cool? If you don't want to insult me, if you say, Rob, I don't want to answer that question. Okay. If you're kicking over the table and screaming, that's going to cause a problem. Okay. But I'm not going to be offended. Okay. And I understand. Okay. But you also need to understand that I have a job to do. And I have to ask questions. Okay. If you don't want to tell me what we did from the time we left, the time we came back, is it fair to say that while we were out, you spoke to a lawyer? Yes. And I'm going to suggest that the only person you had any contact with was with me. Is that right? What do you mean? Well, you didn't speak to any other police officers. Correct. Right. So I'm the only police officer that was in your custody from the time we left this room until the time we came back. I took you down the hall to a room, placed you into a small room with a seat. I made a phone call or I had an officer make a phone call to duty counsel. We originally placed one call. We had to wait. We couldn't hear. We didn't hear back. So we placed a second call. We still didn't hear back. I came in and I actually opened the door and I informed you that we were still waiting for call. Do you remember that? Yes. Okay. I think I asked if you wanted to bore the washroom as well. Do you remember that? I remember. Yeah. And you said, what did you say? I don't recall. You said you didn't need to bore the washroom. Oh, now I remember that. Okay. All right. And then finally we got duty counsel on the line. We put the counsel, the lawyer, we handed the phone over to you. My understanding is his name was Mr. Rodriguez. Did he tell you what his name was? I don't recall his name. Okay. He identified himself as Mr. Rodriguez to me. I don't want you to tell me the conversation you had. It's what we call private. But I want to ask you, did you understand the conversation that you had with Mr. Rodriguez? Yes. Do you understand what he said to you? Yes. Are you satisfied with the information that he's provided to you? Yes. Okay. Great. And then from there, you had a lengthy conversation. I only know that because from the time I handed you the phone until the time you knocked on the door, it was quite some time. I'm guessing it was over 10 minutes. Yes. At least over 10 minutes. Yeah. And then I came to the door and I asked you if things were okay. You knocked on the door so I opened it. You told me that you finished your conversation with the lawyer. I asked you if, how are you feeling? If things were okay, you said yes. I asked if you wanted to bore the washer again. You remember that? Yes. And you said no. And then we walked back right in here. Is that right? Did anybody else talk to him? No. Did you talk to anybody else? No. Is there anything I'm missing? No. That's pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yes. Okay. And then so my understanding is that's essentially what took place from the time you were arrested, right up until the time you were brought into this room. We've covered off basically everything, haven't we? Yes. Okay. Did I miss anything? No. That's important. If I'm not mistaken, the officers fed you. Is that right? Yes. Downstairs and the cells. Yes. What did they feed you? Sandwich and juice. Sandwich and juice. Okay. What was that? I didn't have access to the time that the time I was fed. Okay. Are you hungry? No. Okay. Did you have anything else to eat today? I ate before I was arrested. Okay. And what time was that? I don't recall. Okay. Do you remember what you ate? I don't recall. Okay. All right. If you're hungry at all, at any point in time, you just let me know. Okay. If you need to boil the washroom, you just let me know. Okay. I'm going to leave that up to you to tell me. Okay. Because I'm not going to know if you're hungry or not. I'm not going to know if you need to go to the washroom. So I'm going to rely on you to tell me that. Is that cool? No. Yes. All right. How much sleep did you have last night? About eight hours. About eight hours? How did you sleep? I slept well. You slept well. And where did you sleep? Was it your home? I do not wish to answer that. Okay. All right. Nevertheless, you slept well. Okay. I want to ask you something, Alan. And this is important. Are you on any kind of medication right now? No. Okay. What I mean by medication, do you take anything, anything prescribed for any physical injuries or ailments of any type? I don't wish to answer that. Okay. What about medication for psychological issues? I don't wish to answer that. Okay. Has a doctor, have you seen a doctor recently with respect to any medical issues that I should be concerned about? I don't wish to answer that. Okay. What about psychological issues? I don't wish to answer that. Alec, can I ask you this? Because it's important. And I'm saying this because I think I know the answer. But am I wrong to understand that in high school you were identified as someone with special needs? I don't wish to answer that. Okay. But you did go to form the secondary, didn't you? Correct. Yeah. Okay. And you graduated from foreign days. Yes. Okay. And then following that my understanding is you went to Seneca. Correct. And you were just finishing up if I'm not mistaken. Just finishing up your course. Yes. Yeah. That's the center for development of open technology. No. It's Seneca at your end. Yeah. I realize your program, the program you're taking, isn't it called center for? No. That was actually something else. Oh. Okay. What are you taking? What are you taking in Seneca? Bachelor of software development program. Oh. Oh. So you're taking a degree? Yes. So Seneca offers a degree in software programming. Yes. And that's something that you were aspiring to do. I understand you wanted to become a software developer or designer or software developer. Yes. Yeah. And a team leader is that not right? Yes. That's what you were aspiring to do. Yes. Okay. And as far as work, my understanding is you're not working right now. I don't want to answer that. Okay. All right. Is it fair to say that you had some employment lined up with a company called Seridim? I don't want to answer that. Okay. All right. I do know that you live at home, though. And I do know that you have a mom and a dad, right? I believe your dad, and correct me if I'm wrong. I probably am not pronouncing it right, but his name is Vahy. Vahy. I don't want to answer that. Okay. And your mom's son, and you have an over-brother named Haig. And I think he's probably 28. I don't want to stay. Haig. I don't want to answer that. All right. How are things at home? Good. And with you and your family, you're close to your mom and dad. Yes. Yeah. And what would your relationship with your brother? It's good. I understand you were born in Canada. Yes. Yeah. And your parents immigrated to Canada some time ago. And they're reaching for Iraq, is it right? I do not wish to confirm or deny that. Okay. All right. Okay. I just say that because I'm smoking your dad. And he's worried about you. I'll tell you that. And I ask you these questions. And I'm not trying to intimidate you. I'm not trying to scare you. Okay. The reason why I ask these questions is because it's important that I get to know you better. All right. We just met for the very first time. And you don't know me. Am I right? Correct. Right. And I've never met you before. But I do know a great deal about you. And it's important I get to know you better. And the reason why I say that is because this is an important issue that brings you here today. Okay. It's very serious. And I think I would be neglectful if I didn't at least try and understand who you are. That's all I'm trying to do. You understand? Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Do you feel intimidated right now? Are you scared or anything like that? No. Okay. Will you let me know if that ever happens? I will let you know. Okay. All right. There's anything I say that is offensive or that you find offensive? Or, you know, if there's anything I say that you don't like will you let me know? Yes. Okay. So I say because I don't want to fit. That's not why I'm here. Okay. I do know this. My understanding is you were not a special needs class in high school. Okay. It was a small classroom specifically designed for people with special needs. My understanding is that there were a number of students in that class who excelled very well in certain areas. And didn't do very well or were performed poorly in other areas. So there were, you know, there was a mixture of individuals in the class and the idea behind being placed in the special needs class was to focus on the areas where they didn't perform as well. And in my conversation with you, in my experience with people with special needs because I've been doing this a long time. And I have actually found the members who, you know, have special needs because of a variety of different reasons. I can recognize people who have special needs. So reason why I'm saying that is because I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. Okay. I don't want to be saying something that is going to confuse you or make you feel uncomfortable or make you feel scared. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. Now, my understanding is your dad's not working. He used to work for Rogers. But he's out of work right now. But he's looking for work. Is that right? I do not wish to confirm or deny that. Okay. Your mom works for Compugen. I do not wish to answer that. Okay. All right. Are you in any kind of relationship right now with an intimate partner? Have you got a girlfriend or a, I don't know which to answer that, you know, okay. What about friends? Do you have a group of friends that you typically hang around with? I don't know which to answer that. If I was to say Jeffrey Wong, would you know who I'm talking about? I don't recall that need. Is everyone WAM? I don't recall, you know. What about a friend of the, uh, Levine? I don't recall. Okay. All right. Um, do you know a fellow by the name of, um, Michael White? I don't know which to answer that. Okay. All right. Okay. Michael, uh... Transur? Sorry. You have tensor. Michael, tensor. Do you know Michael, tensor? I don't wish to answer that. Okay. Okay. What about Michael, uh... Uh, Transur? Do you have a Facebook account? Yes. You do, right. Um, is it, am I corrected to, to suggest that the, the name of your account, your account profile is your name? What I will say that it is, uh, correct to assume that most people have a Facebook account with the same name as their real name. Right. Right. Right. And, um, do you have any other online social media accounts? That is my only online social media account. Okay. So you don't want to do my social media. I'm talking about Facebook, Twitter, et cetera. Yeah. Instagram, um, Snapchat, um, uh, or some of the other ones I'm trying to think of. I'm old. I'm 51 years old. Hey, I can't give you young guys half of it. All the, all the, all the, uh, the, the, uh, the different technological ways of communicating. What are the, what are the other ones? Facebook, Instagram. Uh, I'm just thinking about my kids. Yes. Twitter. Twitter. Yeah. Okay. Uh, Snapchat. FaceTime. FaceTime. Do you need an account for that? I've actually never used that before. FaceTime. It's like, uh, FaceTime is like Skype though, isn't it? I think it's easier, a more convenient way of using Skype. Right. Because you communicate over at Facebook. But it's, uh, it's a video form of communication, correct? I actually didn't know that. Oh, because I've, I've just heard of the name. Okay. 'Cause I've actually used it, but this is going to sound strange. I've used it, but I don't know how I used it. People have actually called me on FaceTime. And I've been on my, uh, I have a little iPad. And then all of a sudden I'm, I'm talking to somebody. And I can see them. And they can see me. I, uh, one day you're going to get old. And you're going to realize what I'm going through right now. 'Cause it's hard. It's hard. As a, as a 51 year old guy to try and keep up with the technology. And by the time you go from my age, the technology is going to be out of control. But you're, uh, you're a bit of a computer guy. You like computers, right? You're the software program and all that kind of stuff. And you got a particular, um, area of expertise, like do you, do you write code or what do you do? I don't wish to answer that. You don't wish to tell me what you like to do and what you don't like to do as far as? Uh, no, I don't. Okay, well, we're going back to the, uh, social media accounts. Do you, I mean, my understanding is you have a, um, a LinkedIn account. Yes. Yeah, okay. But you're not, you're not, you're not active on LinkedIn. Do you know what I mean? I, I don't, uh, sign in, uh, daily. Right, right, right. And the information you have on LinkedIn is fairly limited. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, my understanding is your Facebook account is, your, your activity on Facebook is kind of sporadic. Sometimes you're on and then you go off and then you go back on and close down your account and then you open up that account. Why, why, why isn't it? I don't wish to answer that. When I write to it to assume that you've closed your Facebook get down, the account down, in the past. I may have that at once. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. When you, when did you close it down? Did you see when or why? No, when? I don't remember. It was quite a while ago. Oh, okay. And how long was it closed down? I would say at least a year. Oh, okay. Okay. And then, uh, am I right to assume that you just recently opened it back up again? Yes. Yeah, okay. And when, when, when, when did you open it back up? I think about a month or two ago. One month or two ago. And, um, how many friends do you have on Facebook? I don't remember the exact count. Okay. Are you active on Facebook? My, uh, my rate of a sign in is inconsistent. Sometimes I might sign in for a couple of days, but then might not sign in again for another week or so. Oh, okay. Is there a reason for that? I just don't have a specific, uh, pattern when, uh, deciding to use Facebook. You know what I mean? I'm just thinking in terms of routine. Like, why, why, I actually use Facebook a lot of surprise. You know, in as old as I am. Um, but one of the reasons why I use Facebook is because it keeps me, I post a lot of stuff on Facebook. Um, because I'm not that time, I'm kind of shy that way. I like to, to tell people what I'm doing. Um, but I like looking at what other people are doing. And, uh, I have, uh, I don't have a lot of friends, but I have a few and I kind of keep up to date with what they're doing and I watch and I, I love them. As a routine, I will, I will, I don't want to say daily, maybe daily. I go on to my Facebook and I check and, uh, but I don't post a great deal of information. For some reason, I don't know, in my mind, I just don't like to reveal what I'm doing. Are you, when you say you're on Facebook, all right, what do you mean by that? Um, I simply mean that I'm occasionally, uh, signing into, uh, using minimally. Okay. So what you say using is that posting stuff on, on your website? It could be posting or it could be a private messaging, uh, another individual on Facebook. Oh, I see, okay. And what kind of stuff do you typically post on your Facebook? There's no specific pattern as to the type of content I post. No. It's just random stuff depending on whatever you're thinking of today. You could think of it like that. And messaging, are you, what kind of conversation do you typically have on, on messaging? I don't wish to ask that. Um, am I to understand that you've, you've had some military experience in the past? Yes. Yeah, man, okay. Was it in Canada? I don't know. Yes, yeah. And, uh, my dad was a military. My dad was actually on the Navy. He, uh, he joined when he was 17 years old. And in fact, he was, he wasn't 18. So we had, yeah, actually had his parents sign off to, uh, to, uh, to give him permission to join the Navy. So in the military, we have the Air Force, the Navy, and the Army. Which, which, which, which one were you part of? Army. Army, okay. And where did you join here, Toronto? Yes. Oh, really? What made you decide to do that? Uh, I wanted to, uh, try something new. I wanted to see what it was like to join infantry. Really? Have you, have you thought about pursuing the military as a career? I had thought of it at the time that I had, uh, joined. Right? Right, right, right. And, and were you thinking about doing, like, enlisting? Or were you thinking about being an officer and going through the, the officer to get that program? Or what? I had enlisted. You enlisted? Oh, I see. So it was in the Army. What particular, like were you, what particular, I know there's a number of different, is it professions? Or a number of different traits? Traits, yes. What particular-- I was in infantry. Oh, infantry. So you'd be, if, if called the task, you'd be the fellow on the front line? Yes. Charging to the enemy? Yes. Just, uh, getting your hands dirty. At that point, you have to stay, okay? Is that, uh, is it? Yeah, yeah. As per the trade description. Oh, okay. We're not right now. What, so specifically what, so within the infantry, did you have a particular skill that you wanted to develop or was it just? I was interested in, uh, learning how to, uh, use, uh, weapons. Beautiful. Specifically, uh, large guns. So large guns is in, in what? Like, uh, like, such as assault rifles. Oh, okay. So you're not talking about how it serves and, and, uh, cannons, right? You're talking about, like-- Yeah, those, those you can actually hold in your head. Right. Right. So what type of weapons would the military, the military, be, be training their members in? 'Cause you know what, I play a lot of Call of Duty. Right? Do you play Call of Duty? Unfortunately, that game isn't realistic. Um, however, uh, I never, unfortunately, I never made it far enough in my basic training to, uh, use guns. Uh, so I don't know what type of guns the, uh, military uses. Oh, okay. What makes you think, you know, I thought, uh, Call of Duty was real. I know that the scenarios aren't realistic, but I like the weapons they use are realistic, I think. And, uh, and the camel and the uniforms assault gun. Unfortunately, um, the logistics of how the, uh, weapons are fired, uh, are not realistic in real life. For example, uh, there's a lot of recoil when firing, uh, assault rifle. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, I know I imagine that you're not getting much recoil on your, you know, your computer. Whatever, but definitely not. The little handheld console you're using, of course, it vibrates a little bit. You play the Call of Duty? I've played it, uh, in the past. Yeah. I enjoy that. I like that. And, uh, there's another way I really enjoy was, um, honor, badge of honor. I've actually never played that to be honest. That was actually better. That's better than the Call of Duty. Better badge of honor. It's made, it's, uh, I think Call of Duty is, is, uh, Microsoft, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know. But this was another company. Call of Duty is made by Activision. Activision? Okay, right. Uh, and now, yeah, yeah, so badge of honor or something else. It's, it's another company. I don't know what it is, but yeah. Do you, do you find yourself playing, do you play a lot? A lot of games got like you, 25 years old in that year. Yeah, I actually, I actually like playing video games, especially the, uh, violent ones. The violence, yeah. I just like to, uh, let out all my urges. That's, that's why they're there, right? Do you, what about, uh, whatever ones you play? I played Halo a lot in the past. Okay. All right. That's more of a sci-fi kind of futuristic stuff. It's not, I would say Halo's terribly violent. You're, you're killing Martians and things like that. At least you're not killing other humans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play, um, uh, Grand Theft Auto. I played it a couple of times, uh, on someone else's Xbox. I don't actually own, I've never actually owned any copies of Grand Theft Auto. Mm-hmm. So as far as being a gamer, how would you classify yourself? Are you, uh, like a big gamer? I would classify myself as a hardcore gamer. Hardcore gamer. So in terms of hours spent during the day playing video games, how often would you? How many hours would you spend? I would see an average of, uh, five hours per day. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. And that, that seems real. That's even, even, even given my course loads. Okay. And so that's with school? Yes. So, okay. So, and you were full-time? Yes. Yeah. And then you were in a computer degree program, right? Which is, I imagine, intense. Yes. Like hard work. Yes. Have you always been, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm saying this because I've got a, I've got a nephew of mine who's actually in BC right now at the University of Victoria. And he's in a computer engineering program. So I don't know if computer engineering is the same or not. There's an overlap, but it's not the same thing as computer programming. It's not okay. Okay. But his course load is intense, and it's, it's, it's highly, uh, mathematical. A lot of math involved, a lot of equations, a lot of problem solving. I, I never actually had to do that much math in my program. Really? It was mostly coding. Coding. Is there, you write a lot of code? Yes. Yeah. Do you write, what, what type of language you write? I've used C++. C++. Java. Java would be web-based. Java's a really for, for writing code. No. Uh, for websites? Java is more generic. Yeah. Okay. C++ is the, is the, the more popular coding for computer programs. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, how, what made you decide to get interested in that? Well, I was kind of a nerd in high school and I took, and I took a course on, uh, computer programming. Uh, I took one course that was programming in high school, and after that I decided I really liked coding, and I wanted to, uh, sign up for a, um, program. Um, programming. A program in, uh, college. Really? And then you just carried it through and you got into Seneca? Yes. And that's very good. Now, was it difficult getting into Seneca? Did you, I obviously had to. I, I had to. The only difficult part was ensuring that I had high grades. Right. Near the end of high school. Right, right, right. Right. So did you finish grade 12, or did you want to grade 13? I'm trying to think. I finished grade 12. Okay. They didn't have grade 13 when you. No, they've already, they already discontinued that long, uh, before I started high school. That's what I thought. Yeah, that's what I thought. 'Cause that's, 'cause when I, when I first, I'm from BC, I grew up out west in Victoria, I don't know if you ever traveled the country. I've never, uh, been to, uh, BC before. Have you, have you been, any, where else in, in Canada? I've been to, uh, Quebec. You've been to Quebec to, to visit. Yes. But have you been, you, you've traveled in New Orleans? No. Okay. Well, yeah, BC is, uh, in BC, uh, what, no. This is back in 1984 when I graduated. Uh, and it's still to this day. They only have grade 12. But when I moved out here when I was 19, 20 years old, they had, is what they could call it, OAC. They could hold a, which was a grade 13, which was like a, a university prep year. So if you were going to go on the university, or college, you'd take grade 13, but then they discontinued that. But I can't remember, I remember exactly when they did that. So I assume that maybe perhaps you were still part of that. So you, you get into Seneca, and that's how, how many, is it a two-year program? A four-year program. Four. So were you and your fourth year? This semester was supposed to be my final semester, final semester. Yes. And you'd be graduating with a Bachelor of Science? Bachelor of Software Development. Uh, Bachelor of Software Development. Did you have, did you have tests or anything? I already completed everything. So you, you basically, you, you finished? Yes. So what was your last day? Well, last day of classes was, uh, last Wednesday. Last Wednesday. And so when would you, when would you, when would you be told that you, you, you, you would graduate? When would your graduation day be? I would have, uh, found out my final grades this Saturday. This Saturday? Yes. Okay. So were you required to do anything between now and Saturday? Yeah. So that's it. Yes. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Good for you. And that's, no, that's quite an achievement. Yeah. You got a, uh, Bachelor of Science. That's a lot more than what I got. I'll tell you that. I went to university and I, I only, well, only took, uh, well, I got a diploma in business administration that I did two years in, uh, taking finance. But I never completed it. I never finished my university. I wish I had, but I just, it was a lot of work. I couldn't do it. It was, uh, it was too much. Well, that's good. Well, that's, uh, that's quite an achievement. So if you, um, so, but you hadn't lined anything up as far as a job, like, worked with someone. Wait. You don't wish to answer that. Okay. All right. Okay. I understand. Um, my understanding is you're living at home. You don't live on your own. Am I right? I don't wish to answer that. Uh, but you have a good relationship with your mom and dad. Yes. Yeah. And is your relationship always been good with your mom and dad? Yes. Okay. And have they been supportive and learning through your life? Yes. And, um, were there any difficulties in your life growing up with your mom and dad? No. No. Uh, what about with school or the difficulties with, uh, with school growing up? No. No. Uh, and so when I talk about that, I'm talking about the school curriculum, you know, the, you know, going to school, learning and, and, uh, you know, completing your assignments and things like that. Were there any issues? No. No. What about the students? I know. I never had any issues. You never had any issue with any of the students? No. No. Uh, and I say this, uh, because, you know, sometimes these things are important. Uh, were you, um, how are you treated by the other students? I was treated well. You treated well. Okay. Um, did you have any difficulties with any particular group of students? No. No. Uh, what about difficulties with, uh, uh, girls in particular? No. No. No difficulties with girls at all? No. No. No. Not at all. How do you feel about, uh, girls in general? I, I'm attracted to them. Oh, you are? Okay. Okay. So you're heterosexual? Yes. Would you be fair to say that? Okay. That's, that's important. Um, have you ever had a relationship with a, with a female? No. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, in terms of females, I mean females and women. Because you're 25. You're a young man. Right? We'll call them women. Um, in terms of your feelings towards women in general, uh, how would you describe that? I would say that sometimes I am a bit upset that they choose to, uh, deed, uh, obnoxious men instead of, uh, uh, gentlemen. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, um, I have a, um, well, I got involved in this as a real talk about later, but, um, I, I, um, so my understanding is, um, you have some problems with women who date obnoxious men. Yes. And these guys, I'm thinking you're talking about the fellows who are allowed, uh, arrogant, um, uh, generally, uh, outgoing and popular with girls. Yes. Is that what you're talking about? Yes. Okay. Um, and you have a problem with the women that date these fellows. Yes. Why is it the other problem with, with the women? Because I feel that, uh, it's either logical to be, uh, dating such men when they could be dating, uh, gentlemen instead. Right. Right. Right. That makes sense. I mean, uh, and I've seen that because I grew up and I'll tell you one of the issues that I had as a kid growing up because I was, uh, this is going to say, you might not believe me, but believe, I was, I wasn't a very big kid growing up. I was actually very, very small, uh, and took me a long time to, to, to grow. And, uh, so as a result, uh, the, I, I was kind of ostracized. You know, by ostracized, I was kind of cast aside. Cast aside. Yeah. And, uh, or, uh, I left out, like I wouldn't get picked for teams, you know, or anything like that. You know, it's kind of the last guy. Yeah. You ever see those, uh, those, uh, you know, those television shows where, you know, all the kids are lined up and they're getting picked for, you know, the teams and there's always one guy left out at the end. Yeah. That, that was me. I was like that. And, uh, and I never, I was never, uh, very popular with, uh, women girls in, in, in school. And, uh, and that kind of actually went on through, uh, the early part of my, my, my adult, but, uh, until I started, you know, getting taller and, uh, mature. Right. But, uh, I understand exactly what you meant because I was, as a kid growing up, I was, um, you know, I mean, I was like any other kid. And, you know, young man, right, it would look at, uh, uh, attractive girls. And I knew I was probably just as smart. It was not smarter than some of the clowns they were dating. But because for whatever reason, I didn't have what it took. They wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't date me because I think because I was short. They wouldn't date me and they'd end up dating, you know, the tall, jocks, and the other, you know, the good looking fellas. So were you talking a little? Yes. Yeah. And you kind of resent these girls, right? Yeah. Because, you know, it's kind of a superficial way of, uh, deciding, you know, who is your heart. Because the height is an unfair, you can't control your height. Right. Exactly. Right, right, right, right. Right. What other things can't you control? You can't control, uh, your looks either. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. Although you're not a bad looking guy. Thank you. You're a good looking guy. You keep yourself well. And you're fit. You're tall. Yeah. Um, what other things can't you control? I'm unaware, I'm not aware of anything else you can't control. Uh, what about, um, like physical disabilities, right? Obviously if you were blind or, you know, unfortunately you can't control that. Yeah, you can't control that. That's what it means. So these are things you can't control or, um, you know, other disabilities. You know, you're mentally handicapped or if you, uh, you know, you're, you know, you're, you know, you have an amputee or, uh, you know, there's other other things. And I, and so, so does that, would you include that in those, those issues that you can't control? Yes. So, uh, so how long have you had this, um, this feeling towards, uh, women who are attracted to, you know, this particular type of guy? Ever since I, uh, started, uh, college. Ever since you started college. Okay. Did, was it, was it something that occurred as a result of a single incident? Like it's, it was a one particular moment in your life where it sort of struck home. This was a problem. Or was it just a, uh, on Halloween of a 2013, I was attending a house party and I, uh, walked in and attempted to, uh, socialize with some, uh, girls. Uh, however, they all, uh, acted at me and, uh, held the arms of the, uh, big guys instead. Really? Yeah. Well, that's kind of good. And how did that make you feel? I felt, uh, very angry. Yeah. They would, because I considered myself a supreme gentleman, I was angry that they would, um, give their love and affection to obnoxious movies. And so it was at that particular moment. And that was sort of the defining moment that made you think that, you know, this is, this is wrong and, you know, these people are. Yes. I'm fairly treating you in the way that they were. Yes. Yeah. That makes sense. I appreciate your talking about that. That, uh, that says a lot. And, uh, so, from that point on, what, uh, what, what did you start doing? I started thinking that it's unfair that, um, certain, uh, guys will not get any, uh, love and affection for girls. Okay. What do you mean by certain guys? Which is me, that are, that are very nice and, uh, active gentlemanly. Right, right, right. Are there other guys? Did you find other guys? Uh, interesting. There, uh, I know of several other guys over the internet who, uh, feel the same way, but I know they are, I would consider them, uh, too cowardly to, uh, act on their anger. Oh. Okay. And so on the internet, where were you talking about in terms of? Uh, specifically, uh, certain boards on, uh, 4chan. Oh, okay, 4chan, I'm familiar with 4chan. So that's, uh, such as R9K and, uh, Paul. Okay, so describe 4chan to me. What is, what, what is 4chan specifically? It's an image board, uh, where, uh, people, uh, can anonymously make any post they want. Uh, the, uh, the three boards that I have, uh, frequented are B, which is the random board. Okay, POL or Paul stands for politically incorrect. Okay. And, uh, R9K, which, uh, basically means R9,000. It's, uh, in effect, they're saying we're all robots. Anyone who, uh, uh, messengers on that board. Okay. So those are the three boards that you, you, you go to. Yes. To, to, uh, is it fair to see you chat? Yes. You chat with other similar minded people. Yes. So 4chan is a website. And within 4chan, there are these messaging boards. Yes. And they're individual boards specific to, like, minded people. Yes. And, uh, how many boards would there be in total on 4chan? There are about 50 different boards on 4chan, but most of them are actually, uh, unrelated to the, uh, to be R9K or, or Paul, therefore I don't bother going on that. Right, right. So they're, because, uh, in fact, if you try, if I try to talk about topics that I was talking about on those other boards, my posts would get deleted. Oh, okay. All right. So there's moderators? Yes. Uh, who, who monitor the, the conversations and they, you know, they, they kind of police the, the conversations. And if you're not part of the group conversation, they, they kick you out. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. So when did you first started going on the 4chan? Since, uh, 2014. Oh, okay. All right. Uh, I was informed about it, uh, by a friend at college. Oh, okay. All right. And did, was he on it as well? Yes. Okay. What's his name? I don't wish to answer. Okay. I understand. But nevertheless, it's a, it's a friend who's on 4chan. Was he in the same, uh, was he in the same, uh, chat rooms? Yes. Okay. All right. And so you, would you have conversation with him in those chat rooms? Yes. Okay. All right. Well, how many other people would be in these, in these three particular chat rooms? It doesn't actually tell you how many are in there at once because it doesn't, as a software, it's not actually a chat room. It's more like a message board or anyone can post it any time by simply going to the thread. Oh, okay. But they don't have to say there. Oh, I see. So it's not live. It's not live chat. No. It's a, it's a thread. So when you say it's a thread, it's a, it's essentially like a forum. Right. So you make a statement and then somebody will, uh, answer or they will reply to that's your statement. Correct. And you've got, or they might reply to the original poster or it is known as OP. Right. Okay. I see. Okay. Okay. And so the, the general content of these three forums. Is it really my reason? Right. Or form or shoot? Image board. Image board. What, what's the general, uh, uh, the topic within these message boards? Well, on a B, the, uh, or random, the general topic is random. It's literally any random, uh, topic on R9K. It's, they, uh, call us, uh, space robots. Okay. The topic is usually a frustration set and inability to lose ones of virginity specifically for young males. Okay. Uh, poll, which is politically incorrect is the general topic is basically political discussions with an alt-right bias. Political systems and alt-right. So you're, you're, you're ultra conservative. Yes. Or you're the, you know, the American, uh, definition would be, you'd be an ultra republican. Yes. Okay. So you, what would your, what would your political views be in the alt-right, uh, message board? I actually don't have any, uh, political views. I only have, uh, the only reason I have talked with them was just because I enjoyed their, uh, style of, uh, conversation. Okay. And what was the style of conversation? Uh, it was very, uh, blunt and honest. So when, what would it be, what would it typically focus around? What would the, what would the typical conversations contain? Uh, red pill truths about, uh, why, uh, women, uh, choose to date, uh, obnoxious men. Date the chads. Yeah. Chads of this word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically the Stacy's going for the chat. Exactly. The Stacy's are the, yeah, the, the, the dizzy dumb girls dating the, the goofy, you know, jocks. They've never that term before. Uh, and so that's in the old, right? Yes. That conversation takes place in the old, right as well. Yes. Uh, does, do other things take place in the old, right? Um, or red pill. Uh, some, uh, um, old, right members consider them to themselves to be, uh, red pill. Uh, is that like, uh, a matrix? Uh, actually, it is in fact, that term was actually in fact, um, uh, came up as a reference to matrix. Uh, like in the red, you can either take the red pill or you can take the blue pill. Right. And some of them, some old, right members even consider them to be, else to be, uh, black pill, which in a sense means they're a MGTOW men going their own way. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. All right. Okay. You're right? Yep. Okay. So, so the, so the conversations are surrounding, uh, so in those three message boards, they're all basically this, or maybe in the, in the two message boards, the alt-right and the... R9K. R9K. They're... Let me call ourselves space robots. Space robots. But the conversations tend to be focused around, um, uh, fellows who have, uh, been unable to lose their virginity due to the stasis of this world and the chats. Yes. Right. And, uh, I, I've done a little bit of, um, uh, reading and I know a little bit about, um, involuntary, uh, celibacy. Celibacy, right. So being celibate. Involuntarily celibate. What does that mean? That means, and celibacy means, uh, uh, someone who would never perform, has a sexual intercourse. Right. Uh, involuntary celibacy means this wasn't your choice. I see. Who essentially are, uh, have been thrown into true forced loneliness and you're unable to lose your virginity. Right. Especially, uh, painful for, uh, young males. Right. Right. Right. That makes sense. And there's other, are there not other websites that cater to this group of people as well? Forever alone. Have you ever heard of them? I have heard of the Forever Alone subreddit. And subreddit? Subreddit? You've heard of those? Yes. Okay. And would it, is it fair to say Forever Alone is a, is a forum within subreddit? It is a subreddit. The definition of subreddit is basically a section of Reddit. Right. Right. Yes. Exactly. Right. So it would be like the 4chan. Kind of. In a way. Okay. Are you on Forever Alone? Yes. You're on that as well. Yes. Okay. And what other sites are you on? I don't, I can't, uh, recall other sites off the bat at the moment. What's your, what's your user name and, uh, Forever Alone? I don't want to answer that. Okay. Well, what about 4chan? There is no user name because you're always anonymous. You don't want to register on 4chan. Well, and that's what makes 4chan popular. Yeah, because it makes it very easy and you kind of hide behind a computer screen. Right, right, right, right. Okay. And so when you're on the internet, where are you typically when you're, when you're accessing these websites? Are you at home? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And if you've got a computer home, you're obviously you do. Yes. Okay. Um, uh, do you ever access them with any other type of device? I have access to them, uh, from a school before, from school computers. And where's that at, Seneca? Yes. And what department? Um, in, within the school library, that's common to all the students. Oh, I see. Do you have one particular computer that you go to? I've always gone to the computer at the, uh, northeast corner of the library just as, uh, because I'm a person of habit. Right. Right, okay. But, uh, is there a number on that computer or anything like that? No, but I'm always gravitated to the exact same spot. I'm, I'm able to, I just instinctually know, uh, this is exactly where I've always sat. Every time. Right, right, right. What type of computer is that? Uh, Windows 10. No, I mean, in terms of the, uh, the hardware, what does it make of the hardware? Uh, I'm not sure to be honest. I know it's a workstation. It's a workstation, so it's not a laptop. Correct. It's, it's like a, it's a box and a, and a, and a flat screen. Correct. And it's at the northeast corner. Northeast corner. So if, if I was to walk into the library, uh, where would the doors be to the front entrance of the library? They would be, um, very, uh, close to the, um, southeast entrance of the, uh, S building of Senator. Adorit. Okay. This, and the S building contains the library? Yes. Okay, and, uh, the southeast entrance, and then you'd walk. Then you, then you would, as soon as you enter, you would turn left, then into when you walk, then you'll see the entrance to the library on the left-hand side. Oh, I see. Okay. Throw me a picture with the library. Have a seat there. Have a seat at the library? Yeah. Or, we're in the computers. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's essentially the, um, the main layout. So those, so, so I'm looking at this. That's north. The top of the page is north, east, west, and south. Yes. Okay. And where's the entrance? The northeast corner is the entrance. Yes. And this is, this is around the corner where I, um, where I prefer to assist when I'm using their computers. Okay. But put a circle or a square. How would you, uh, show me where you, where you're, where the, I would put it here. To me, it's not actually the very northeast corner because the actual northeast corner has a bunch of Macs. Uh, I am, I'm using the most northeast, uh, windows computer now. Okay. Just put, uh, put computers on that. Okay. Um, do me a favor. Just sign the bottom there so I know that that's yours. So you're, you're, you're, you're kind of a fellow of, of, of habit. You, you got a routine. You stick to it. Yes. Okay. And the computer at home, where's that located? It's located in my room. Oh, okay. What type of computer is that? A Mac. Oh, so you, but you do like, so you own a Mac? Well, I'm, I'm good with both Macs and windows. And windows, yeah. But you prefer windows or? Yeah. Really? But you have a Mac. I use it for development. Oh. So there's a difference in terms of the versatility of the different, of the computers. Is that, is that how it works? Yes. Oh, I see. Okay. So for development, you like the Mac, but for surfing the web, you like the windows? Yes. Oh, okay. That makes sense. All right. And, and your, your Mac, is it a, is a laptop? Yes. Oh, okay. What, what, what version is it? I believe it's high Sierra, if I remember correctly. It's a high, I've never heard of the high Sierra. That's, that's just the operating system. No, I'm saying is it like a Macbook Air, or is it a Macbook, Macbook Pro? It's a Macbook Pro. So it's the thicker of the, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's, it's about, it's about three quarters of an inch or something. Okay. What color is it? A skeel or a green color. Yeah. So they come at the standard A. And where butts in your room is your, is your, is your laptop? Oh, my gosh. It's on your desk. You got a desk inside your room? Yes. Okay. How many bedrooms in your house? I don't wish to answer that. Oh, okay. All right. First, I just don't want to give up the privacy of anyone else living in the house. I totally understand that. I totally understand. That makes a lot of sense. And I appreciate you telling me. You know what? That, you know, like I said, you know, if that's, if that's the issue, please let me know. Can I ask you this? Do you have your own bedroom? Yes. Okay. Okay. So, so when you're on 4chan, what specifically are you? And, and, you know, 4chan when you're doing your different websites and forever alone. Which, let me ask you this. Sorry. Sound confusing. Which are you more active on in terms of 4chan? 4chan. Okay. When did you first, sorry, you mentioned this and I forgot. When did you first go on to 4chan? 2014. 2014. And specifically when in 2014? May 23, 2014. How were you able to remember that? Because I remember that was a very significant day. Okay. What was that? That was when Elliot Roger decided to essentially commit an uprising, a beta uprising, if you will, against the Chads and the Stacys. Okay. Okay. And that was in the United States. Yes. And so when you're talking about. Well, because incels don't believe in borders. Right? Okay. Okay. Well, locations are irrelevant to us. Right. Right. But for geographical reference only, am I right to understand it occurred in California? Yes. Okay. And what type of uprising occurred? What happened? It was a beta uprising. A beta uprising? Although he didn't call it a beta uprising at the time. Someone else who was inspired by him by the name of Chris Harper. He called it a beta uprising sometime in, actually I believe it was October 1, 2015. It was 2014. No. Someone else named Chris Harper Mercer in 2015 called it a beta uprising. I'm only retroactively assigning a beta uprising to the Elliot Roger moves. I thought Chris Harper Mercer committed a beta uprising in Oregon in 2014. Which later fueled Elliot Roger to do something similar in California in 2016. It was actually the other way around. Elliot Roger in 2014, his, what is it? You're right. I'm sorry. Yes. His, what I'm retroactively calling a beta uprising inspired Chris Harper Mercer to do the same thing in 2015. You're absolutely right. I, you're absolutely right. That makes a lot of sense. So, it was Elliot Roger who is the father of this. Basically the founding forefather of the entire movement. Right, right. So explain to me this movement. What's this movement about? It's basically, it's basically a movement of angry insults such as myself who are unable to get laid. And therefore we want to overthrow the chides which would force the Stacey's to be forced to reproduce some of the insults. Right, right. Okay. When you say incels, involuntary celibate. Celibate. So that's just a short form for, for, for, for fellas who. Can't, can't have sex. And what happened in the Elliot Roger uprising? What did he do? I know he used a gun as well as a vehicle to convert the life status of certain individuals to death status. Right. Only to carry the message that incels can't be oppressed. Right, right. So it was, it was an act of rebellion. Yes. And frustration and anger. You could call it an incel rebellion. Incel rebellion. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. And how many, how many lives were converted from living to, to death? Six. Six in total. Okay. Yeah. And was anything else? Did he do anything else? I know he used a, a knife for his first three murders. For his first three murders. Okay. All right. And, and then what about Chris Harper Mercer? What, what did he do? He used a gun for all of his murders. For all of his murders. How many did he, how many people did he murder? I believe it was, it was either eight killed and ten injured or ten killed and he injured. Ten killed and injured, okay. It was one of those two. Okay. Now were these fellas active, unfortunately? Yes. They were. Have you ever communicated with these fellas? I, I actually have as a matter of fact. Who did you communicate with? Both of them actually. Really? We used a code names actually. Okay. What was, what were they? Uh, Elliot Roger was named of Altharion. Altharion. Yes. Altharion. Altharion. Okay. And what was Chris Harper Mercer's name? Space Robot. Space Robot. One word or two? Uh, one word. One camel case. Camel case. That means the SNE are, we're both capitalized. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Uh, okay. And what was your, what was your code name? Xbox, light side. Xbox, light side. All one word. All one word. All one word. Camel case? No. Only the first letter was capitalized. The X. Yes. Okay. All right. And, uh, so what did you discuss with these guys? We discussed our frustrations at, um, society and being unable to get laid. And we were plotting a certain, uh, timed strikes on society in order to, um, confuse and shape the foundations just to put all the, uh, normies in a, uh, state of panic. Okay. And who did Nori? Uh, Nori means, uh, normal people. That would be anyone who is, uh, considered to be a normal by, uh, the unfair standards of society. But not the Chads or Stacey's. Chads and Stacey's are actually, um, above Normies or at least they think they're above Normies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we've got Chads and Stacey's up here, Normies down here. And then you've got celebs who believe that they are being repressed. Incels. Incels. Incels, sorry. Yes. Incels who believe they're being repressed. Suppressed or repressed. Yes. And, and so as a result to even the playing field. Yes. The, you know, they, they, uh, they convert the Stacey's and Chads from living to dead. And to make it. So now we come out on, on top. Yeah. So is there, so the, the targets, who are the targets for the, this uprising? All of the, uh, alpha males. All the alpha males. So the Chads. Yes. So that's, those are the people that you want to kill. Yes. Okay. All right. And who else? Any, uh, any of the Stacey's who, uh, do not wish to, uh, give their love and affection to the Incels. So they, they, they're a target as well. Yes. To be killed. Yes. We, we, we don't necessarily wish to, uh, kill the normies, but we do wish to subjugate them, uh, in order to make them understand that the, um, that our type is, uh, the more superior line. Right. Right. So when you say subjugate, what you mean by that? Meaning, meaning, uh, either imprison them or put them in a lower position in society. Okay. But they acknowledge, um, the Incels or the, uh, peppy, the frog types as the more superior ones. Okay. So just, just saying things that I'm not familiar with. Sorry. What's up? He's, he's, um, he has a mask on a 4chan. We, uh, use a mask on? Yes. Oh, mask on a 4chan. Yes. I was, I was using a metaphor. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, uh, he's actually a workshop, uh, quite frequently. Oh, okay. So going back to the conversation with, with Chris and, um, and, uh, Eliot, you're talking to these fellows. Now, when, when are you having these conversations? When, when do these conversations start to take place? Um, before, uh, obviously before they're, um, asynchronous because they're both dead now. Right. Right. Right. Okay. And, uh, and then once you learned of the, so what, so it was Eliot who was first in 2014. Yes. So what did Eliot, what did, what did you and Eliot talk about? Let me, let me have, I, I find you very interesting. I take, and I, I find this fascinating. Um, but I want to make sure I, I don't go too fast. Um, did you have, did you have, who did you have conversation with first? Let me ask you that. Eliot. Eliot. So how did you learn of Eliot? It was on, um, on the, we, uh, private messaging each other on Reddit after I saw one of his posts, uh, and, uh, who just talked about each other and got to know each other. And we found each other very interesting. We both had the same, uh, frustrations on society. Despite being separated by distance so far apart. Right, right, right. Did you ever visit him? Uh, I know, but I wish I could have. Yeah, yeah. Did you ever come up visit you? No, but I wish you did. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, did you ever communicate, uh, outside of, uh, 4chan? Did you ever communicate on anything else? Reddit was the first place we, uh, communicated. Oh, okay. And was it, uh, forever alone? Yes. In that, in that subgroup. Yes. Okay. Uh, and did you ever communicate, uh, on any other medium or platform? Uh, other than Reddit and 4chan, no. No. So you didn't Skype or call in the phone or anything like that? No. Okay. So how long does this conversation with Elliot? So, so when, so when specifically, you may have mentioned it, I wasn't listening. When specifically, did you first contact or have contact with Elliot? January of 2014. 2014. And, uh, when did you stop having contact communication with him? Uh, as soon as he was diseased. Okay. So, uh, his act, I know took place in 2014, but I wasn't aware of the exact day. What day was it? May 23, uh, 2014. May 23. Yeah, you said that. Uh, so when did you last speak to him? May, uh, 20. May 20. And so what did he tell you? He told me that, uh, he has to go. He must, he is on a very important mission and, uh, he might not make it back alive. So what did you say to him? I, uh, kind of had an idea in my head of what he was planning, but I didn't want to think it was true at the time. So I said, so I replied and said, uh, I wish you a good luck with that. Okay. Okay. And, uh, were there anybody, was there anybody else in this conversation? It was a private, uh, conversation. It was a private, okay, so there's nobody else speaking? No. And you can have private conversations outside of 4chan. Well, like I said, it was a Reddit private message. Oh, sorry. Uh, forever. Yeah. Uh, forever alone. Yeah, 'cause anyone can, uh, just private messages such, each other since you have a registered account. Right. Okay. Okay. So you can go on the, the forum and, and the threads and leave messages. And then you can speak to people outside of the threads privately. Yes. Okay. I'm just mad because I, I haven't been on these, these websites. So it's, uh, but I've heard about them. So I'm just trying to get familiarized with, with how it works. So did, uh, was there, was there, as far as you were aware, was there anyone else involved in, uh, Elliot Rogers, uh, uh, mission? I believe that he told me that, uh, other members of, uh, 4chan were giving him, uh, encouraging support so that he would have the courage to, uh, start his rebellion. Right. Right. Okay. And so you last speak to him on March 20th. May 20th. I'm sorry. May 20th. 2014. Yes. He commits his, his acts on the 23rd of May. Yes. When did you learn that, uh, when he had done? I saw it on the news later that night. Later on the 23rd. Yes. Okay. And what did you think? Uh, I thought that I came to the understanding that this is the mission that he had to, uh, carry out. Okay. All right. And anything else? I felt kind of, uh, proud of him for, uh, his acts of bravery. Okay. All right. And what about, uh, how you started to, to, to change your thinking? What was, was, was that, was any of that going on? Uh, starting to feel a radicalized at that time. You're worried. Okay. And when you say radicalized, what do you mean by that? Meaning I felt it was time to take action and not just sit on the sidelines and to just, uh, fester in my own sadness. Right on. Okay. All right. And so, uh, so this, this is starting, this is a process. It's not something that just, I mean, the, the day that you realized that, uh, you were a celeb was the day that you were ridiculed by these girls at this party. But I'm not Halloween of 2013. Right. But then as you got to know, uh, Elliot, and then, uh, understanding his, his, uh, his, uh, mission and, uh, what he had done, you began to, to start, become radicalized in terms of your thoughts. Yes. Okay. And so what takes place next? As part of this, this, this growing radicalization. To be honest, uh, the planning didn't occur until about a month ago. Most of it was actually just thinking. Okay. And daydreaming. Okay. All right. So the thinking of daydreaming, when did that start? That started about a month after the rebellion in May of 2014. Okay. So, I mean, since, so in June, I started thinking about this stuff. And then that continued right up till about a month ago? Yes. Which is when I, uh, booked, uh, the van with the rider in order to, uh, use as a tool for rebellion. Okay. All right. So it took me through that process. What was going through your mind? And how was, you know, what were you thinking when you were doing all of this? What was going on? Uh, thinking that it was a time that I, uh, stood up to the Chads and Stacey's. Okay. And then, and then, so what happened? So this, tell me what takes place. So I booked the van. Yeah. And then I just simply wait until, uh, today. Yep. And then I go rent the van and then I, uh, drive it, take it downtown to Toronto. Okay. And I just start using it as a weapon. Okay. All right. And, and so when you say that, what do you mean by that? Meaning that I, the vehicle collided with, uh, several pedestrians, some of who are no longer alive as a result. Right. Okay. Okay. Uh, okay. And, uh, so that's a lot of information. Take me back to, uh, a month ago. You said this is when this whole planning started? Yes. Okay. So about a month ago, where were you at that point? I was at Seneca College and I decided to, uh, phone writer and, uh, book a, uh, either a truck or a van with them. And they had a, uh, a 10-foot van, uh, available. So I figured that this is perfect. I can, not, it's, uh, big enough to have an effect, but not too big that I can't maneuver with it. Uh, so van was the perfect, uh, medium size to use as my, uh, weapon. Right now. Okay. So you're at Seneca? Yes. You said, and where specifically at Seneca are you? I was at the college library and they made the phone call. At the college library when you made the phone call? Yes. So the, the library that you just drew for me? Yes. Okay. And where were you specifically in the library? These desks. Okay. There's actually a, my face was facing north. So show me, show me where you were. I was sitting here from this way. Okay, so you just, uh, just put, uh, put, um, writer phone call. Okay. So you're sitting there and this is about a month ago. What day specifically is this? It was near the beginning of April. So it wasn't exactly a month ago as, but almost a month ago. Okay. All right. So you're at your desk and what time of day is it? Mid day. Mid day. And, uh, you said you, you made a phone call? Yes. And how, and how do you make that phone call? Um, by googling, uh, the rental number for, uh, the nearest, uh, writer location. Okay. And how do you Google the? I just simply said, uh, writer, uh, rental locations on, on my laptop. On your laptop. Okay. So when you say on your laptop, were you using a school computer? No, actually I was using a Windows computer. Because I, because I know I said before I have a Mac, but I also have a Windows which I take to school just because I don't want the Mac to get damaged. Okay. So you've got two laptops. Yes. Oh, okay. Uh, what's your other laptop? The Windows. The Mac and Windows. Yep. No, I guess, is it, uh, I mean, what, what's the, the name of the, the, the actual laptop, the, the make? Uh, it's a, it's a Lenovo. Lenovo. Oh, I see. Okay. What color is that? Black. Black. And where is that? Uh, in your bedroom. Uh, it's located in my closet. Oh, okay. All right. You're, you're, were you hanging your clothes? Yes. Above them. Above it's on the top shelf. Yes. Oh, okay. How many closets in your bedroom? Just one. Just one. Okay. Uh, so you take that, the Lenovo laptop to your school. Yes. Uh, at Seneca and in the library at the desk, you Google the nearest writer. Yes. Rental. Truck rental. Yes. Okay. And what made you decide to choose writer? Uh, because I had looked up some reviews online. They, uh, were active, people were saying a good stuff about them. Because I looked at some other companies such as UHAL. And people were complaining about them saying that the trucks never arrive on time. There's, the customer support is terrible. But they, the people loved the writer. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. That makes sense. So this was just reviews that you'd read online that made you choose writer. Yes. Okay. Can I ask why were you looking specifically for a truck? Because it would be a large enough to inflict, uh, severe damage. Okay. That makes sense. Uh, okay. So how do you contact writer? By phoning them, basically. And what, what phone do you use? My cell phone. Oh, okay. So you got a cell phone with you? Yes. All right. What type of phone is that? An Android phone. Okay. And that's an actual make. That's, it's, it's, well, it's either your phone's either going to be Android or iOS. My phone is, uh, Android. What's the make of the phone? Asus Zen for, was it Asus Zen phone for? Okay. And where's that phone? What do you mean by where? Where is, where is your cell phone right now? It was, uh, confiscated. Oh, so we have it. Yes. Okay. And what's the phone under there to do to yourself? Four on six, E3, six, nine, seven, one, one. Okay. And so you call writer and, uh, from Seneca. And, uh, what, uh, writer, um, truck rental? What, what's the address? Uh, 700, uh, cornerstone road. Oh, okay. And, uh, so what do you say though? What's the conversation? I just, um, said, "Hey, how are you doing?" I was interested in, uh, renting a truck. I, uh, told him that I wanted to just help a friend and move furniture around. Okay. All right. Do you remember the individuals we spoke to? I believe it was either a mat or a mic. A mat or a mic. Okay. And, uh, what did a mat or a mic say? That, yeah, we do have some, uh, trucks available. And that, uh, we can rent them out to you. And that he asked me when I wished to, uh, uh, rent it and I said April 23 and when behold, it was available today. Okay. Can I ask why you chose April 23? I, uh, it was, uh, I felt it would be a more symbolic if I had completed my exams. Okay. Okay. Okay. But, uh, apart from the 23rd, there was no other reason? No. So if you had finished your exams on the 15th, that would have been the 15th? It would have been the 16th. Oh, the 16th, okay. All right. Uh, so, yeah, uh, how long is your conversation with the, the fellow from Ryder? About, uh, two minutes. Okay. Uh. 'Cause I was fairly qued. Okay. All right. And then what happens? So you made this phone call. Sorry, let me ask you this. Did you reserve the, the trunk? Yes. Oh, you don't, okay. And what, uh, what did you tell him in terms of reserving? How was that going to take place? Um, I, I said that, um, we agreed that I could just simply, uh, pick it up. Okay. Did you have to give a deposit or anything like that? Yes. I had to give, it was about a $400 deposit when I arrived at the location. Okay. But that's not until later. Correct. Okay. So you just reserved the truck. There was no requirement for you to give any type of credit card or, or form of payment. Correct. Okay. So you reserved the truck, then what happens? Then I, uh, simply, uh, record the, uh, reservation and then I, uh, go on that date to, uh, pick it up. So nothing happens for approximately one month? Correct. So you don't, you're not thinking about this? I am thinking about it, but I didn't need to make any further preparations. Okay. So what are you thinking about? Well, you know, you're waiting to, to make these preparations or waiting to rent the truck. Uh, the uprising. I was thinking that I would inspire, uh, future masses to, uh, join me in my uprising as well. Okay. All right. Now are you going to do that? Uh, I was going to, uh, tell, uh, people on, uh, 4chan, uh, before had. Okay. All right. And, and did you do that? Yes, I did. I did a, a one day in advance. Oh, okay. All right. So did you actually go on to 4chan? Yes. And post messages? Yes. Okay. And, and what name did you, or is there anonymous? You said that. Yeah. Is that right? That's, that's the default. If you don't specify name, it's going to say anonymous. Okay. Did you, did you specify a name? No. Yes. Okay. So it was anonymous. Yes. And at what time did you go on to 4chan? Approximately 3 p.m. yesterday. 3 p.m. yesterday. Okay. And what specifically did you say? I was using a code language to avoid a detection by the authorities. I was, I stated that there will be a beta uprising tomorrow. I encourage others to follow suit. Okay. Okay. And did you post on any other, uh, mediums, mediums? Media. Media. Media. Any other people? No. Just a 4chan. Just 4chan. Okay. Did anybody reply? Yes. Quite a few people were congratulating me because I suspect they probably knew what I meant by what I said. Okay. And in fact, uh, I remember there was one poster who said he was from Edmonton and he would be planning a similar uprising in November 15 of this year. Of this year? Okay. Okay. And what specifically did he say in terms of what he said? He said, hey, thanks, man. You've given me great inspiration. November 15, Edmonton. The continuation of the rebellion. Okay. Those are his words. Okay. I'm just saying. Okay. And, uh, so that was the one thing you did to, as you were thinking about this and planning, what else were you doing? Well, I was, um, finishing up my school work as a normal. Yeah. Okay. All right. I still have to worry about my school work. Right. Of course. Anything else? Uh, no, nothing out of the, outside of the ordinary. So in terms of your, uh, in terms of the time that you spent thinking about this over that month, if you were to break it down into a percentage, I would say 80% of the time was spent thinking about it. Even while I was doing other activities. You were, you were thinking about it. I was very preoccupied with it. Very preoccupied with it. Okay. And in this thinking, what were you thinking specifically? About how, uh, how the foundations of the world would be chosen by this event. Okay. And, uh, when you say that, what do you mean by the foundations of this world? Meaning that I, I, I was fairly confident that others would be inspired to, uh, repeat the same actions as me in, uh, basically just to overthrow society. Okay. Okay. And, uh, so this, is, is there any other, is there any other block process going on? That was pretty much the mean talk process. Okay. And, uh, okay. So then it comes to today or yesterday, the 23rd. Right. 'Cause I guess mid-night's already passed. Yeah. Exactly. So it was yesterday. So, um, walk me through your day. You get up in the morning. What time do you get up? Uh, at about seven. About seven o'clock? Okay. And then what do you do? I have breakfast. I brush. Uh, nothing unusual. Right. And then what happens? I check my emails, uh, just to see if there's any school, school-related stuff or anything that, such as Java offers, anything like that. Mm-hmm. And then I'll go for a walk on the neighborhood. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, then I went to the, uh, Ryder location, uh, yesterday. Mm-hmm. And, uh, just took the ban. Mm-hmm. And, uh, brought it out to Toronto and, uh, and then I committed the Estrubelius Act. Okay. All right. So you get up around seven? Yes. Okay. Uh, you said you had some breakfast? Yes. You brushed? Yes. Okay. Uh, you go on your, your, your computer? Yes. What computer, what computer will you own? Mac. The Mac. And you said you check some emails? Yes. Did you get any emails that, that relate into this? Uh, no. Did you send any out in relation to this? No. Okay. So you, uh, you're on your computer, how long are you on your computer for? I'm on there for several hours a day. Okay. Just because mainly, uh, since I'm a software developer anyways, I would have to use my computer anyways. Right. Okay. And then, from there, uh, you go for a walk? Yes. Okay. Now, uh, where, where do you, where do you go for a walk? Uh, around the neighborhood. Okay. You just walked around? Yes. Okay. When do you leave the house? Uh, usually at about 8 a.m. after I've already finished breakfast and have a rush and everything. Okay. And so, uh, you leave the house at around 8 a.m. and just walk around the neighborhood? Yes. What are you thinking about as you're walking around the neighborhood? I'm, uh, thinking, I'm just thinking about life. Okay. Is, is your focus on your mission at all or anything like that? Sometimes. But to be honest, I'm not thinking about it 100% of the time. Uh, sometimes I just try to, when I walk, I just try to clear my thoughts. Okay. All right. Uh, were you conscious this morning? No? That today was the day that this happened? Yes. That was very aware of it. Very aware. Very pressing. Oh, very pressing. Okay. So, how long are you outside of the house? Usually my walks are about half an hour to an hour. So, is it fair to say that's how long you're out today? Yes. Okay. And, uh, from the time you get up to the time you leave the house, the conversation with anybody? Uh, you mean just yesterday or anything? Yeah. Uh, no. No, okay. When you're outside, do you speak to anybody? Uh, no. Are you, uh, chatting with anyone on your phone during this time of all or anything? No. Uh, you're not messaging a 4chan or anything like that? I did post a Facebook message, uh, right before the, uh, the attack. Okay. I was stating that the insult rebellion has already begun. Okay. And, uh, okay. All right. I was going to do it with my phone. Okay. So, let's just work up to that. So, now, you've gone for a walk. Uh, it's pressing on your mind. This, this attack. You, you come back home about 45 minutes to an hour later. So, what time is that? I would say that would be approximately nine. Nine o'clock? Yes. And, uh, and then what do you do? Then, I just, uh, I sit back, uh, I sit on my computer, just play some random, uh, browser games until it's, uh, it's time to leave. Okay. And so, what computer are you on? Mac. Mac. And what, uh, browser games are you playing? What are you doing with that? Uh, just random games on the internet. I was actually, I was actually playing, uh, City Jumper. It's a very old game. Okay. I just wanted to pass to time until I left. Okay. And so, while you're playing this game, do you have a particular time in your mind that you're going to do this? Uh, well, the, um, truck rental was, uh, or ban rental was at, uh, one p.m. Okay. So, and I already had a Google Maps route planned. I, uh, left the house at 11.25. I took the bus to, uh, the rider location. Okay. So, you're at home. Uh, I just want to make sure I'm clear as to what was going on. All of you're playing some online video games? Yes. Uh, you knew that the truck rental was at one o'clock. Yes. So, uh, you leave the house at 12.25? Yes. Okay. And how do you leave the house? No, sorry, 11.25. Sorry, 11.25. 11.25. How do you leave the house? Uh, on foot, I walk to the bus stop. Okay. I, uh, take the bus stop. Uh, I take the bus, uh, uh, very close to the rider location. Okay. And I walk from the, where I got off the stop to that rental location. And then I, there from there, I picked up the, uh, van. Okay. So when you, what, what bus stop did you catch the bus? Uh, I, uh, went on 85C westbound at my house and I transferred to another bus, which unfortunately I don't remember the number because I've only used that. That other route is not one of the main routes, so I don't remember the number. Okay. So where's the bus stop that you would have attended in order to, to board the bus? The first bus was, uh, baby on 16th. Did you walk to baby on 16th? Yes, because it's only about five minutes from my house. Okay. And so you, there's a bus stop there, baby on 16th? Yes. And, uh, I'm assuming we're talking about York Regional Transit Bus? Yes. And what was the name of the bus? The number of the bus? 85C. 85C. And, and which direction is that bus going? West. On 16th? No. Yes. 16th? Yes. Okay. So on West on 16th, so you, you catch that bus? Yes. And how do you, uh, how do you pay to get on the bus? Uh, bus ticket. A bus ticket. Okay. Um, and, uh, what time do you get on the bus? Uh, at about 1130, about 1130, so about five minutes from your house. Okay. And then how long of a bus ride till you get off and get on the, on the, on the next bus? It was about a half an hour until the next bus. Okay. So where do you get off the first bus? What bus stop do you get off of? Uh, highway seven and a western. Highway seven and western? Okay. And you board a second bus? Yes. And where did you board that second bus? At that same stop. Same stop. And, uh, what, you don't know the number of that bus? I don't remember, unfortunately. Okay. But that's, uh, it's a York regional transit bus? Yes. Okay. And so what direction do you, if you had, uh, uh, when do you get on the second bus? It went north and then it went east again. And then it dropped me off about a five minute walk from the, uh, truck rental location. Okay. Okay. So where did you get off the second bus? I don't remember, unfortunately, because it was one of those small neighborhood roads. But it was very close to, uh, credit stone road. It was very close to credit stone road. Yes. Credit stone road. What would be the major intersection? I believe the, uh, bordering the street was, um, Pennsylvania Avenue was actually a neighborhood road. It wasn't in a major intersection. Okay. So credit stone in Pennsylvania? Yes. It was, it was in or around that location. Yes. And from there you walk to the rider, uh, rent, truck rental? Yes. Okay. And, uh, do you have your cell phone on you at this time? It was coffee skin. Oh, at that time. Uh, yes. Okay. The same cell phone. You just told me the Acer cell phone. It's a Zen phone before. Right. That phone. Yes. Okay. Uh, do you receive or make any phone calls during that time? No. Okay. Uh, what about, uh, okay, we'll, we'll ask you that later. So you, you walked to the rental store or, uh, the, the truck rental store. What time do you arrive at the truck rental store? At about, uh, 1230. Okay. 1230. All right. And so you walk in and what do you do? I, uh, say hi. My name is Alec Masian. I'm here. I know I'm early, but I have a truck rental at one. Um, so then I end up filling out some forms, signing some stuff. I weed a bit and then eventually I'm given the bad. Okay. And the individual you speak to, what do they look like? He was wearing a, uh, bright vest. Bright vest? Okay. Well, what color does it seem to be at? White. White skin? Did you catch a name? Uh, no. No. Uh, how old were you then? He was probably in his 30s. Probably his 30s. What color was his hair? I think it was dark brown. Dark brown? How tall was he? Uh, he was about five nine. Oh, five nine? How much do you weigh? I would estimate to be about 152. 150? 152. 152. 152 pounds? Yes. Okay. I'm very precise like that. Okay. Okay. That's good. Okay. And so in terms of his build, how would you describe his build? Um, it was kind of lean but slightly muscular at the same time. Okay. All right. Uh, what about facial hair? Uh, he was clean shaping. Clean shaping. Okay. Any other distinguishing characteristics about him that would pop, you know, center him up from anyone else? None in particular. Okay. So, sorry, what do you say? You're there early but you want to know if this truck is available? Yes. Okay. And, uh, in terms of the trucks, did you have, uh, were you given a choice of trucks? I was given, uh, I was given a choice, um, when I was making the, uh, the phone call earlier this month. Right. So, I chose the F10 foot one. Okay. And although it's actually a van, uh, but we were, it was sometimes being referred to as a truck, uh, during the rental. Right. Right. We're, uh, so I'm assuming there were, there were various sizes of trucks, vans available? Yes. Okay. No, it was actually quite small compared to the actual trucks. Okay. So, what did you, what did you, why did you choose the van? Uh, because it was larger than a car and therefore large enough to be effective, but not so large that it made maneuverability hard. Oh, I see. Okay. That makes sense. And when did you come to that realization? I was thinking about it before I, um, well, before I made the phone call. I was thinking I need something powerful enough to be effective, but like I said before, uh, and small enough that it's, uh, maneuverable. Okay. So, you were thinking about that before, was this, went, went specifically to this, this thought process come in your mind. Okay. About two days before I made the phone call. Okay. So, is it fair to say you, you reserved a larger truck, but then when you went into rider after thinking about the logistics of your mission. No, I would, uh, I just, um, the van that I used was the, was what I, uh, rented. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Uh, okay. So you're at the counter. You rent the van. Uh, what is the individual that the salesperson say to you? Um, well, he just asked me if I have a driver's license. He asks me for credit card. I, uh, I use it. The card gets approved and he says, okay, wait here. I'm gonna, uh, get the van for you. And in about 10 minutes later, he has it for me. Okay. So the, you produced a, uh, your Ontario driver's license? Yes. Okay. And, uh, what type of credit card do you produce? Visa. Or, and what a banking institution does it, does it? TD. So it's a TD visa. Is it a, uh, does it, a particular brand of TD visa? Does it have a particular, uh, or? No, it's just simply a TD visa. Just a simply, simple TD visa. Okay. And, um, I'm gonna ask, do you know the number of your visa card? I don't remember it. You know, okay. Um, uh, but it's in your name? Yes. So behind the counter takes your, your identification and the visa card. Presumably he, he charges you for the rental? Yes. Okay. How much was the rental? I don't remember. To be honest, I think it was, I remember I had to pay a foreign at all the deposit. Okay. Uh, to be honest, I wasn't really paying attention to the cost because I knew I would be able to cover it anyways. Okay. All right. Um, did you sign any documents? I signed, uh, on a tablet. Okay. All right. Um, were you given any type of, uh, receipt? Yes. I, uh, in fact, I put it inside a, uh, folder which was in the van, which I'm assuming has probably been, uh, confiscated as the van was probably searched. Right. Right. So where was the receipt in the, in the van? Inside a, uh, some folder. Oh, I'm sorry. It was, it was next to the, uh, steering wheel near the coffee cup holders. Okay. All right. Same place from my phone and wallet work. Okay. All right. So you're, you've now, uh, paid for the van. Uh, you've signed for it. You've been given a, a paper receipt. Uh, the, and then what happens? Uh, then I, uh, as I said before, he tells me to wait, uh, as he's, uh, getting the van, and so I wait about 10 minutes. Okay. And then, uh, he brings the van and then I, uh, go into it and then I take it down town to Toronto and I start, uh, using it. Okay. So when you're, uh, presumably the van gets pulled up in front of the entrance, is that? Uh, yeah. He, he pulled it up next to the building and made it ready, uh, to be able to easily exit out. Okay. And so do you do an inspection of the van to make sure that there's no damage you're in? Uh, no, I didn't bother because the van didn't appear to be damaged or anything like that. Uh, okay. Uh, so, uh, he gives you the keys? Yes. Okay. Um, and, uh, what do you do at that point? I, uh, drag off. Okay. And what route do you take? Uh, I drove down a corner stone. Uh, sorry, credit stone. Uh, until I reached, I believe, uh, Highway 7. Okay. Uh, then I went east on Highway 7, and then I took the, uh, ramp to, uh, young, and then I went south on young until I, uh, reached the, uh, attack location, uh, near Finch. Okay. So what direction are you traveling on credit stone? South. South. And then you go west on... No east. Sorry. East on Highway 7. On Highway 7. On Highway 7. Young. Okay. And then on young I continue south. Okay. So when do you leave Ryder? I wasn't looking at the time when I left, but I know I received at the van before 1 p.m. Although it was, uh, the booking was actually scheduled for one. Okay. All right. And how long does it take you to get from Ryder to young street? Oh, to young? To the beginning of young? To the beginning of the attack. Oh, to the near young in Finch. Yeah. Oh, to 20 to 30 minutes. 20 to 30 minutes. Now what are you thinking while you're in the van? Uh, I'm thinking that this is it. This is the day of retribution. Okay. And, uh, anything else in your mind? Just that. That's the only thing that's in my mind. It's just burning in my mind. Burning in your mind. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, so let me ask you this, because this is really interesting. Why did you choose younger Finch? I didn't choose young in Finch in particular. I was driving down young because I knew it would be a busy area. And then as soon as I saw there were pedestrians, I just decided to go for it. Okay. And so where specifically were you, in terms of your specific location? Where were you when you just decided to go for it? I was, uh, at some traffic lights. Okay. Um, but I don't remember. The only reason, in fact, if I hadn't, uh, I remember some other, uh, I had burned some other officers mentioned young in Finch before. That's the only reason I really remember it. Okay. But otherwise, I actually wouldn't have remembered that it's, yeah, I really only knew it. I just knew that I started seeing a lot of people walking. Okay. It might, it might just stand, am I correct when I, when I say that you knew at least you were on Young Street? Yes. And you knew that you were specifically chosen beforehand because that's, that's why, because I even looked for that ramp from Highway 17. Right. Okay. Okay. So nevertheless, you're at, you're at a, you're at a stoplight you said? Yes. You're at? And now are you faced with a red light? You're stopped? Uh, yes. But as soon as it turned green, I, uh, started going. Okay. Just walk me through this. Okay. Step by step. So it turns green. And what are you thinking? I'm thinking that, uh, this is it. I see all these people. It's, uh, time to, uh, go for it. Time to go for it. And what do you do? I, uh, floor the pedal. I speed the van towards them and I allow the van to, uh, collide with them. Okay. And then what happens? Uh, some people get knocked out of the way. Some people roll over the top of the van. Okay. And then what, what happens? I, uh, continue doing that until, um, I, in fact, actually, to be honest, the only reason I stopped my attack was because someone's drink got splashed on my, uh, windshield. And I was worried that I would, uh, crash the van anyway. So I decided, okay, now I, I wanted to do more, but I've kind of been foiled by a lack of visibility. So then that's when I pulled a turn right and I pulled, and I saw the cops approaching, so I decided to pull over and get out of my bed. Okay. How long do you travel from the moment that you, you decide this is it, the light turns green and you, uh, mount the sidewalk? Is that right? Yes. To the time that you stop. How long in terms of the distance would that have been? Traffic, two or three traffic lights. We're three traffic lights. Okay. So you turn right at what street? I don't remember which street. I wasn't paying attention. Why do you turn right? Um, because I, because there wasn't any convenient place to stop young and I, and like I said, there was a lack of visibility on my windshield. I could hear the cops coming anyway, so the, the, when I turned right, there was a convenient place to pull over on the sidewalk. Okay. Okay. And so you're now, so you're, you, you, you physically stop your vehicle. Yes. You physically stop. So you end the assault. Yes. Okay. Um, and you end it because you can't see. Yes. And you knew the cops were coming. Yes. Okay. And so then what happens at that point? Uh, I, I see a patrol car pull over and I hear the cops screaming at me to get out. So I get out and I, uh, point my wallet at the cop in it with the intent for it to be confused at the gun so that I could be fatally shot. Okay. And was that something you were thinking about? Yes. I mean, I, I, what I'm saying is... Even before had I, uh, pre-mediated as an attempt to do suicide by cop. You wanted to, you wanted to be killed by the police. Yes. Okay. Can I ask why you decided to, to, to equip yourself with a wallet, not something else? Uh, I was worried that I was thinking about purchasing a toy gun. Right. But I was kind of paranoid that some, for whatever reason, the rival rental company would ask to see my pockets or any bag if I chose to bring that. So I decided to go as stealthy as possible so no one suspects anything. Okay. Unless you go the, the van, the officer or his board? Sorry. Uh, it, correct me if I'm wrong because I want to make sure you're this right. You get out of the van because the officer orders you out? Yes. Okay. Uh, and you want to, uh, you want to die by, uh, by, by suicide by police? Uh, so you point your wallet at him? Yes. Okay. And, uh, do you say anything to the officer? Uh, I actually told him that I had a gun in my pocket which was untrue. Right. Uh, then I had to, I twice, I stuck my left hand in my pocket and attempted to do this just to provoke a reaction. Okay. Uh, that, uh, he, unfortunately he didn't react. Right. So then I ended up being ordered to the ground. So I knew at that point he's not going to shoot me. So, uh, I've lost. So I, so I had no choice but you just get on the ground. Okay. So just walk me through this, step by step because I'm a little confused. So you, you get out of the van, sorry, if you turn right, you can't see, you hear the police, you know they're coming, you see the police officer approach, you stop your vehicle, uh, you realize this is the, the end. He orders you out, you get out of the van. Yes. Now your planning, your plan was to die by suicide by cop. So you said you reached into your pocket twice. Well, actually, well, originally I, I, the entire time I had, I was holding my wallet with my right hand, but then when I saw that that wasn't working, I reached into my pocket with my left hand, I quickly pulled it out and it formed my hand into the shape of a gun like this. Okay. Um, but the hope that he would panic and shoot me, that of course didn't happen. Okay. And do you, how many times did you do that? Twice. And all the while you had your wallet walling with your right hand. Okay. Um, and so realizing that the officer wasn't going to shoot you, what did you do at that point? I realized I had no choice but to get on the ground because I was probably going to be, uh, tackled anyways or tased. And if I'm, if I'm going to live, I'd rather not encounter physically a painful experience. I decided I have no choice but to admit defeat at that point. Right. Okay. And so when you say admit defeat, what did you do? I, uh, got on the ground. Okay. And in terms of how, how did you get on the ground? Well, I turned around, I got on my knees and then I got on, I got on the ground. Face down. Yes. Okay. And then what happened? Then he put his knee in me on my back. Okay. And then he handcuffed me. Okay. Uh, and another officer's arrived and pinned me down as well. Okay. All right. And then from there you were placed in the car and we already talked about that. Yes. Okay. That's quite an experience. That is quite a, uh, not the usual everyday experience. No. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. Um, did I miss anything? I believe that's everything. Alec, I thank you for talking to me. I really do. I really do. I really appreciate that. You've given me some insight and I appreciate it too. Um, how you feeling right now? I'm feeling good. Okay. We've been here a while. Do you need to borrow a washer? Uh, well yes, but if there's anything urgent, I am able to wait. Okay. Can I ask you this? Uh, sit tight for, uh, two seconds. Uh huh. I want to get rid of the bottle wash because I'm really thirsty. Uh, what I'll do is, um, I'm going to step out. Um, and then I'll come back and if there's any other questions I have, I will, uh, I will, uh, I'll speak to you like that. Okay. Okay. I'm just going to sign this here. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Give me a couple of seconds in them. Let me see if they're really good. Do you want me to get in? Uh, I'm good. Thanks. Okay. Okay. Okay. Tell me what happened from the time we left the time we came back. You mean just now? Yeah. Uh, I went to the, uh, washer. I, uh, urinated in the toilet bowl. I, uh, washed my hands, uh, thoroughly at the sink. Uh, then I, uh, took some paper towel. I, uh, used that to close the top. Uh, so with that, some paper towel in the garbage. And I took two more, uh, pieces of paper towel. Used that to open a knob while holding the door by foot. I put the paper towel in the, uh, garbage. And then we walked back. Yes. Do we have to ensure that there would be no, uh, germs on the head? Perfect. Uh, did we have any conversation? All we were onside? Uh, no. Um, I, I think I pointed out where the bathroom was. Yes. It sits here on the right. And then you went in and, uh, did you speak to anybody else? No. Anybody speak to you? No. Okay. Um, I was thinking, uh, you mentioned you went to go back. Yes. Why, why did you go to go back? Uh, I went to a Montreal ball in all of the mouth. No. Okay. Yeah, for, uh, summer hiking. Oh, okay. All right. Why did you go specific? I've gone, uh, a few times in the past. Okay. And why mouth trouble? Uh, 'cause I'd heard it's a good place for, uh, hiking in the summer. Is that something you do? You like to do as a hobby? Yes. Do I go hiking? Okay. Uh, who did you go on? Uh, I don't want you to specify. Okay. Uh, how are we there? Uh, just for a weekend. Okay. All right. Um, you were in Buffalo. I understand. I don't want to call it, we're being in Buffalo. You never would call it going to Buffalo? No. Uh, might as day as you travel to Buffalo and travel to another, uh, U.S. state. I have, uh, been to Chicago and Boston, San Francisco and LA. Okay. All right. Okay. Where did you go down there? Um, San Francisco and LA were Christmas of 2003 and 2013. Chicago was, uh, winter of, sorry, well, Christmas time of, uh, 2007. Okay. Uh, what was the reason, what was the reason for going to the U.S.? Uh, justification. Did you want the family? Yes. Okay. Uh, can I ask what religion you want? Uh, I'm not of any, uh, particular religion. You don't follow me. I mean, yes. You're atheist. Oh, I see. Okay. Can I ask what religion you were raised? I wasn't raised in with any religion. Oh, okay. Uh, if I were to say your parents aren't religious? Yes. Okay. Uh, okay. Um, so you don't have any religious ideology or? No. Uh, uh, you know, particular religious, uh, faith or following of any kind. Correct. Okay. Um, you, uh, did you go to your prom? No, I didn't. You didn't go to your high school prom? No. Um, have you ever had a girlfriend? No. Okay. Can I ask you something? This is, this is personal, but, uh, given what you've told me, I believe it's relevant. Uh, have you ever had an intimate relationship with a woman? Unfortunately, I haven't. Okay. Is that something you would want to do? Yes. Okay. All right. Um, can you tell me why it is that you haven't had an intimate relationship with a woman? I feel it's because I'm, uh, too nice. Okay. All right. Uh, have you, you made it, you made attempts, or as you say, have you made attempts to, to have, uh, an intimate relationship with, uh, with a woman? Uh, yes, I did ask a girl out once, but she, uh, rejected me. Oh, okay. Where was that? Uh, that was in, uh, 2012. 2012. It was before the October Halloween of 2013. Yes. Okay. Uh, and was that, did that leave you with, uh, I mean, how did, how did that leave you? I, uh, felt crushed at that point. Okay. Uh, I'm talking about the 2012 incident with the, the girl. Yes. Oh, okay. Um, Alec, remember when we talked about telling the truth? Yes. And I asked you, you know, if you were going to tell me your side of the story, which you didn't, I appreciate that. Uh, has, has everything you told me to the truth? Yes. Okay. Cause I, I'm going to be honest with you. There are, there's one aspect of your story that doesn't, doesn't cooperate with, with the information we have. Okay. There's, there's one piece to your story that, uh, is inconsistent with what we know. Would you care to guess what, what piece that is? I can't think of the inconsistency. Uh, how you specifically got to the, the rider, uh, truck rental. If I was to suggest to you that we received information that somebody dropped you off there. Would I be right? I don't want to answer that. Okay. The reason why I say that is because it's, you know, what you've told me, I believe you. Okay. But, you know, I asked you to tell me at the, I asked you at the beginning to tell me the question that if you were going to talk to me, all I wanted was to be from the heart, which it was, and to be the truth. Which I believe the, the majority of your, okay. Um, so what I'd like to do is at this particular, at this particular juncture, if there's a portion, I don't want, I'm not asking you to reveal anybody or names. Okay. But if there's a portion of your statement that is not true, okay, I'd like to know. This is important. It's about the truth. You're very forthright, upfront, about what's happened. But it's important that we get the truth. Okay. I, I'm not asking for names. All right. But in terms of how you got to the rider dealership, were you telling me the truth? Or not? Yes, I was telling the truth. You were telling me the truth as to how you got there? Yes. You're not lying. No. So in other words, the truth is you caught the, the bus. Yes. The truth is that you did not get dropped off by somebody? Correct. Why is it that we would receive information? Sorry? I can't think of a reason why. I'm going to be straight up with you. Your dad has told us that he dropped you off at a Starbucks coffee shop. Earlier today. Earlier yesterday. Yes, that is what happened. Okay. So why wouldn't you tell me that? Because I was worried that you would think he was an accomplice. Okay. He was not aware of this. Okay. And I believe you. I believe you would say that. Okay. I want you to know your dad's not controlling. Okay. And we're not, you know, we're not looking at your dad as being an accomplice. Okay. You have my word on that. Okay. But what's important, Alex, is that I get the truth. Okay. We don't believe that your dad is an accomplice. Okay. I'm not going to lie to you. You're not, your dad's, your dad, your family is not in any kind of trouble. Okay. But I need the truth. Okay. So let's go back. You said you got up in the morning. Yes. Okay. What time did you get up in the morning? Uh, I believe it was at about seven. Okay. Now you told me what happened. Yes, it was all about the truth in terms of getting up. Having breakfast, brushing. Yes. And then leaving the house around eight to go for a walk. Yes. And you were out for about an hour to, uh, forty-five minutes to an hour. Yes. Is that the truth? Yes. Okay. And then you come back? Yes. And then you were playing on video games? Is that the truth? Yes. All right. So from that point, what happens? I, I'm a given a ride to the Starbucks location near Highway 7 and Western. Okay. And then from that point, I walk to the rider rental location. And from there, I pick up my van. Okay. So we're not, if we go back to the York Regional Transit System, we're not going to see you boarding the bus. Correct. Okay. So that was a lie. Okay. So what did you tell your dad? Why did, you know, what did you tell your dad? I told him I was meeting up with a friend. What's your friend's name? Brandon Lumi. Okay. And what was the purpose for this meeting? What did you tell you about the purpose of this meeting to be? Uh, just to be able to, um, catch up on all times, talk with each other and chat. Okay. That's what we're going to do. All right, well, thank you for talking to us. I want to ask you this. Okay. We're not looking at anybody else, uh, as being involved in this. Okay. Um, so in light of all of that, is there anything else that you've told me that isn't true? No. Everything else is the truth? Yes. Uh, you're, you're being upfront and honest with me. Yes. Okay. Um, while you were planning all of, planning the attack, starting approximately a month ago, when you were in the, the planning deliberate, the deliberation stage, right through to, uh, getting arrested, who did you talk to about this attack? Forcehead. Forcehead. Okay. So what do you mean by that? Meaning I, uh, posted two days before the attack that, um, I hinted that there would be, um, another, uh, beta uprising and that, and then, then there were replies, some of the people, based on the replies I could tell that they kind of knew what was going to happen. Okay. Did you have any, um, conversation with anybody else? Not in real life. What does that mean? I mean, not in person. Okay. How did you, or what, uh, over what, uh, medium did you, did you, did you communicate? Just fortunate. So what do you mean by not in real life or not in person? Who were you speaking? Well, real life means you're not using the computer. Right. Uh, so I did not inform anyone in person of these plans. Okay. Outside of 4chan and leaving threads or messages on threads, who else did you talk to? Using, uh, social media or, I'm speaking specifically to individuals. Who specifically did you tell? No one. No one. You mentioned you were playing, um, City Jumper. No, City Jumper. But before that, you were playing, uh, Call of Duty and you played Halo. Halo and you played, uh, GDA. Yeah. Grand Theft Auto. How did you play these games? I mean, I know you played them. Oh, I went to Xbox, uh, 360. With the Xbox 360. Where's that Xbox 360? I actually no longer have one. I used to have one. Okay. Where did you, where did you, uh, when did you get rid of it? Uh, well, a few months ago, the disc tray got jammed. Okay. So, uh, that's why we had to get rid of it. Okay. So, how did you get rid of it? We just, uh, threw it out. Through the garbage. Yes. Okay. So, did you ever, uh, use the online, uh... Xbox Live. Xbox Live. Xbox Live? Yes. Okay. And what was your username on Xbox? My, uh, gamer tag was, uh, Xbox Light Side. Xbox Light Side? Yes. All of 'em work? Yes. Uh, any capitals? The first letter. First letter. And, uh, in your conversations with other people online while playing Xbox. Or while using Xbox. Uh, who did you discuss or talk to about, uh, conducting this mission? I didn't, uh, discuss it with anyone over Xbox Live. Okay. Uh, who did you discuss, uh, specifically, uh, with, about this mission? Using any other type of communication. Other than fortune? Yeah. No one. No one. So, it's fair to say no one knew that you were planning to, to, to do this attack. Correct. Okay. I want to talk to you, and this is very important. I want to talk to you about, uh, this, uh, Edmonton, uh, attack that's going to take place later this year. You said it was in what month? November 15, 2018. No. No. Uh, what more, uh, what more information can you tell me about this, uh, this impending attack? The only information I have is that, um, someone hinted in the, uh, as a reply. He simply said that, uh, this has, yeah, I think I know what you mean, bro. That this, uh, kind of, this has kind of inspired me. Um, I am planning something similar November 15 this year. Okay. How do you know it was? It was a reply. It was a public post. It was a public post. How do you know it was going to take place in Edmonton? Because he said, uh, Edmonton. Because he said it. In the post. So if I was to go on to Fort Chen, would I be able to see this post? Uh, due to the high-frequency, high-volume, the high-frequency of posts on Fort Chenston, all the threads get pushed out very, uh, quickly. However, it is possible that they, uh, get archived on some other website. Okay. And what, specifically, what thread was this under? Uh, it doesn't have a name because I left that, uh, fuel blank. Okay. So, but what, uh, what subfolder is it in? Um, if there's no subfolders on Fort Chen. So, well, I thought you said that there was, uh, right, right, radical, or, oh, it fell fell into the category of alt-right. Alt-right. Oh, it fell into, it's in the alt-right category. Yes. Okay. So that's where, if it was to be found, that's where it would be. Yes. Okay. What other, uh, impending attacks do you know of? That's the only one I know of. That's the only one? Yes. Okay. Um, have you, uh, have you, have you had any other discussion with this fellow who's playing this attack in Hamilton? No. No. Who is he? I don't know. It's, uh, it's said anonymous. That's a whole point of Fort Chen. Right. Okay. Is there anything else you can tell me that might help me better understand what's happened here today? There isn't anything else I can offer to be honest. Okay. Can I ask you to sit tight for a couple of seconds? Sure. Okay. Okay. Okay. I really appreciate you talking. Uh, I'm going to be straight up with you. I find you fascinating. I really do. Um, I've never met somebody like you before. And, uh, this has been quite an experience for me as much as I think it has been for you. Um, can I ask you something? How were you treated here today? Very well, actually. Very well. Okay. And, uh, I'm talking about overall with, you know, from the moment you're arrested right up to now. Uh, yeah. I was treated well. In terms of the way I treated it here today. I feel you know, well as well, well as well, okay. Uh, what's, what's going to happen here today? Are you, I don't know if you're familiar with the process. So, we're, we're, we're, unfortunately, we're going to have to hold you. Okay. Because, um, we, we can't release people for certain charges in the ones that you're facing. We can't release you. Which means that you're going to go to court tomorrow or today. Uh, you'll, uh, you'll be in front of the judge. Okay. Uh, there'll be a lawyer there, uh, who will advocate or will defend you on your, on your, on your behalf. Uh, there'll be a crown attorney who will, uh, who's the prosecutor who will, uh, advocate for the crown or the, uh, for, for, for the, for the crown. Uh, and they will argue in terms of, um, uh, your, your bail. Your release. Okay. Um, uh, following that, uh, court dates will be set in the future. Um, you will eventually get a lawyer, make application to apply for a lawyer. Um, they will receive your lawyer, will receive disclosure from us. They'll get a copy of this, this video. Um, and then with meetings with the lawyer, you can discuss what it is you want to do. Okay. Um, I'm going to ask you this, uh, because it's important. Um, 10 people died here today. Um, 50 people were seriously injured. Um, I think it's important to ask, how do you feel about that? I feel like, uh, I accomplished my mission. Do you feel like you accomplished your mission? Yes. Okay. If the families of those people who were murdered and were injured were in this room right now, what would you say to them? I honestly don't know what I would say. Would you apologize? I'm going to shoot your hand. Sure. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Is there any questions you have? I don't know any questions. Okay. Uh, if I need to speak to you again, would you be up to that? Yes. Okay. Um, I gotta just make sure there's a, uh, a room available. What I'm going to do is, um, if you don't mind, can I get the hangout here? Sure. I'm going to get an officer to come in here, and he's going to take you back downstairs. Uh-huh. He'll be the, he'll be alone in the room. Uh, if you need something to eat, you just let him, uh, let him know. He'll get you something to eat, use a washroom. He'll need to light out, have a sleep, do whatever you want. Uh-huh. You can do that, all right? Uh-huh. Okay. Hey, tight. I'll make sure off. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.