So, David, tell me a little bit about SWITCH. What is SWITCH all about? So, SWITCH on context is a logistic technology recruitment business. So, we operate with global retailers and logistic companies across the UK, Europe, UAE and the US. Born out with a bit of adversity, being made redundant at the start of COVID. I was personally up there in terms of the sales of recruitment. We were in the Champions League stage, if you like, and being made redundant from COVID, so to think, I don't want to do that again. I want to go through making somebody else a success and then a move on. So, yeah, that's where SWITCH started. But, yeah, eventually we're really good at coming in. I just need to be a recruitment company. Does that make me have an agistic initiative? Excellent, no, okay, that's good to know. So, tell me, I mean, you talked about COVID and redundancy. So, what's the story of how you got into this seat then? I guess, what's a bit of the history that led you to hear and what you've done, I guess, is the question? Yeah, good question. So, I was at university in my second. We'll go right the way back. I was at university my second year and I decided to take a year out. I'd had enough of the university life and deciding to go work or enterprise rent a car to do a year in industry. So, that's where I got my teach in terms of sales, you know, making sure that everybody was protected with their protection and, you know, the real hard end of the sales spectrum. And then I went back to university for my final year and I think right before I went to university, I forgot the tip that I would do back for my final year. So, there wasn't actually a tip for me. So, the choices really were I can do the same course but slightly different, which was business studies, not business management, or go back, go and don't work for a year and then come back a year later. I tried to do the study but it was so different to what my previous course was. I decided to do it enough to that time and I, I actually picked my business now business farmer, Sam, who I barely knew at the time and said, "You're in recruitment, what's that?" And he back and forth conversations with him and he ended up giving me my first job in recruitment. And I worked for a university bibbid for three or four years and kept my teeth working in the NHS sector and then I moved on and into a different sector with a different company, which is where which has kind of formed its base, which is legit technology recruitment and consultancy. I was there for about four and a half years and then was made redundant in COVID. A couple of rounds on the golf course with Sam and his current business partner and I said, "Look, you guys have set up a really good business in the NHS, recruitment space. I want to do the same and I don't want to work for anybody else. I want to do it. I want to start my own business and sure enough, they gave me a bit of help, they've invested and that's best which important." Excellent. No, no, okay. So always being in recruitment from that point of view, it kind of sounds of it kind of accidentally fell into it. Yeah, yeah. The 21-year-old me shows, you know, what you can make a lot of money, a very short space of time, yeah, I'll have that, thanks. Sure. So you mentioned there about you didn't want to work for anybody else. You really wanted to kind of work for yourself and have your own business. So what's now that you've done that and you've done that for quite a period of time. So tell me, talk me through some of the kind of, say one of the downsides of having your own business and what perhaps some of the upsides of having your own business. I'll tell you a bit about it, not 20 minutes. Yeah, every, I think, I listened to a quote a couple of weeks ago listening to the podcast, I can't call who it was, but they said, "If every business owner was asked a question, would knowing what you know now, would you do it again?" You'd never do it because it's so much harder than you could ever imagine. And I think the best part of starting the business is you don't really know what's in front of you, so you're not scared. You know, the downsides are, you know, sacrificed. He is having to be away from my daughter, who's now three years old. I thought that when she was very, very young, my wife went through a period of illness and we had to tackle that whilst still running the business and all of that. But we got to where we are and I'm extremely proud of where we are now. And it's a really exciting business. No, excellent, excellent. No, and I get that in terms of, as you say, the downsides are, it's you and the business, isn't it? There's nothing else to lean on in a kind of corporate sense. So what's the good side of it then in that sense? I think the good side of it is he's actually being challenged to put your own downcon things and actually really having to think for yourself. And I know that sounds, you know, in terms of the typical of a business owner, but when you work for somebody else, the only thing you've got to think about is you, your sales, and yourself, you get your weekends, providing your performing well, et cetera. But yeah, the other side is actually going through all that hard work and seeing the small changes that God was actually right about this part of, you don't have to be that kind of manager to get success. Yeah, so I think the upside are when it works and when it goes well, you know, it's all about the financial rewards, actually seeing people's life change and you're all part of that. No, excellent, excellent. And so what's the biggest learning do you think that you've had out of this period of time? What's the thing that comes to the front of mind when you think that's one of the real things that I've really discovered as part of, I guess, developing growing a business? There's things that I lost a lot of sleep over in the first six to 12 months, i.e. cash flow, VAT bills, contract that were meant to come in that were dead, so that never that I no longer lose sleep over and it's because you have to build up that piece of resilience because they, things are going to be okay. And if they're not okay, in business, you have to just find a way to solve each issue that comes in front of you. You can plan, you can forecast that sometimes the chef has just come down and you've got to find a different way, go over that. So my biggest learning is essentially that is control the controllables and always try and get a good night, please. I love that. I love that. And as you say, resilience, I guess, when it is your own business and that whole learning process, then you do become resilient. But that is also a sign of success, isn't it? Because you probably go through, it's the kind of roller coaster, you go through the down times and you're worried about it, but you bounce back and come out the other side, I guess the more that you do that, you realize, I can do this and this is fine and that helps build that resilience. So no, that's really cool. Can we talk to people? Do you, I mean, clearly you're recruiting people, you're a recruitment business, but you've got some people within your own team as it were. What about what about that aspect in terms of how important are the people that are around you? Oh, absolutely crucial. You know, we, we hired quite quickly in the business and, you know, credit to the people that came into the business. But what we tried to do is hire people without an experience and train them up because, you know, the on paper, that's cheaper. But actually, that's on me, that was my mistake. We had to pivot the business and bring in experienced people within the industry to really model the business and make it to the team. That was the hardest thing for me to do is actually let someone go because they weren't right for the business, but equally, we, the business wasn't right for them as well, because they're not wasting each other's time. But yeah, the thing that we've got now is, you know, it makes me extremely proud when you hear how much they care about which, you know, and that's something I've got in business years, and that doesn't happen. You know, people will stay in a job for four or five years, and they'll hate it, and they'll stay for the paycheck. And I don't feel, I might be wrong, you know, if you, if you go and get some references from the people who work for me, but I believe that everybody that is here is generally on the journey. No, and I, no, I don't need to check because I know you will know that intuitively, by the way that they work with you, the things they say to you, and be pursuing it, because they stay with the business, etc, etc. So, so, no, so I think that's interesting. And your point about some people don't work out, and therefore, you know, they, they don't belong in the business, and it's best for their man for you that actually they can move on. And I don't have you found, because I work with a number of people where there's too many times where they look back and say, you know, I kept that person too long, and I actually should have dealt with it sooner. Did that happen to you in terms of that kind of thing? You know what, it didn't. And at the time, it felt like, at the time, it felt like, oh, why are you making me do this? And what I'm referencing there is, I had business partners in Tham and Liam, who have already been there and done that. And at the time, when they were saying, look, this person, you don't want them to be here, it's not right for them, it's not right. You, and I wasn't used to those feelings because I'm not, I wasn't a, a business owner, but seeing hindsight is absolutely the right decision to make. So yeah, it was hard at this time, but I'm really happy with where we've got to. Yeah, that's good. Nice. And going back to that piece, because obviously, it sounds like you've built a really good culture. The people are happy there. You sense that the loyal, they're passionate about what they do, and you've built a good team. So it's the one thing that sticks out in your mind that you might have done within the business that's built that good culture that actually makes those people kind of loyal and passionate for the business. Yeah, I think the, and I didn't know I was right at the time, but I always thought, what was I lacking when I first started? What was I lacking during my timely dis-company acceptance? And sometimes, most of the time for me, it was autonomy, to be able to think for myself, and each individual that comes in my business, we set the parameters of what is it that you are here for, what do you want to achieve, and how do we get you there, and how can I help you? After that, it's on them. They tip my goals always open, and I'm there to support what I'm not overbearing, and whether it's operationally, you know, the admin and the operations. If that's not working, we know there's a performance issue. If the sales aren't coming in, we know there's a performance issue. So we don't need to stay how many calls have you made today? How many dials have you made? How many leads have you got? Because everybody knows that they can work exactly how they want to work, and if it fails, we can go back to the growing board together. That's excellent. I mean, that's just great leadership, isn't it, to be able to end up saying, look, I'm not going to watch you and supervise you all the time. You can be a self-starter, here's the boundaries within which you operate. I think it sounds like you clearly created those, but after that, go and do what you need to do, and that's excellent, because that's exactly the way that most people want to work. But you used to phrase that in terms of, I think you said, my door's always open. How can I help you to do your job, which I think, again, brilliant way in which to kind of support people? So no, great leadership. So any other leadership thoughts that you've got, or things that you've learned, again, in terms of the leadership piece, or things you apply there in terms of... Yes, I've had to grow massively over the last two and a half years, and my biggest sort of strength and weakness is, I like to be like, you know, I'm going to put that on my chest. I like to know that the staff that I work with, or the employees that I work with, like me, and I like them, etc. And that can be a strength, because that person will work for longer hours if we need it, but equally, he can go the other way. And my biggest sort of lesson in starting this business is, you've got to get that line perfectly clear, so that when you are their friends, you're their friend, but when you need to have those difficult conversations, you know, you're talking to two different people, and that's the bit I've struggled with, and this is my biggest development, there's still ongoing now. Right, no, that's really interesting, and that's a hard thing to do, isn't it, because actually you're playing different roles at different times, and knowing, I think you've said whether the line is, or yeah, that's really It's really difficult to taste them, look, this wasn't good enough, you need to step up, and then go to repine with them half an hour later, you know, but I think it's really important to be able to do that. Yeah, it's probably down to trust at the end of the day, I think what you're saying is you've built real trust with them, and therefore you can actually play both those roles, and they respect both of those roles, because they trust you. Just talking about, because I sense the business has grown, you've been scaling up, any thoughts on scaling up, and how you kind of get through the next stage of the next stage in terms of growing the business? Yeah, I mean, obviously the last sort of 18 months has just been very straightforward, we need more customers, we need more sales, we need more relationships, we're now moving to a stage where we're expanding, and you know, for a rest of the day, getting to a point where we hire probably three or four more people that are directed towards sales. My personal vision is we don't want to just be in Birmingham, although it's a brilliant state, that's the reason we set up here, we want to be in the Netherlands, we want an entity in the US, we want to go to the UAE and set up places where we're already doing business. The plan for that is extraordinary, you know, to a little bit ambitious, but we've got foundations to be able to make that happen. No, that's excellent, that's good. And yeah, it's tough when you go internationally, there's other considerations when you do that kind of thing. But, and talking about that point about taking on the extra salespeople, it is, do you have discussions and issues regarding which comes first? Do you really want to start to see that the business is coming through first before you get the resource, are you brave enough to get the resource, knowing the confidence that the business will follow? How does that work? That's the most difficult question that we always ask ourselves, you know, which way do we go, you know, and I've seen businesses that really put it to the wire and say, look, let's hire the people and one of them can good, we're fine, financially. I see it sort of in the middle of that is we've got clients now that have plenty of area for us to do more business in, and that's now an adjust application to get somebody into going to explore those areas. But we have dipped our feet in to make sure that if we bring new people in, there's stuff for them to go at. The other alternative is having a working capital to be able to invest in somebody that already has a network, already has a computer, and they just want a better environment to work. I guess that's certainly less risky in the sense that they're bringing kind of business with them in that regard. Of course, it's more expensive from a paper in the first instance, but you know, there's less risk in that, Lario. Sure, sure. So, one interesting question, really, if you've got an answer, and that is, do you have anybody in terms of books that you read, or people that inspire you, or podcasts, or anything like that, that you're passionate about, that you listen to read, or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I listen to a lot of Stephen Bartlett, Direva CEO, and there's, you know, I don't have any one specific person that I can be found, but there's some significant people that I've thought, God, I didn't think I'd learn something from them, and I did. You know, there's a great podcast with Jimmy Parr, where actually he's not the comedian. He's sort of given a bit of a mantra for life, and it's, you know, it's actually all about, what was the quote that he gave? There was something along the lines of, I'll give you 100 million pounds, and the only caveat to that is, you won't wake up tomorrow. And what would you want to say? And Stephen said, well, of course, I'm not going to take the money. I said, well, there you go, your life is worth 100 million pounds. So, let me let you wake up, and it's a little bit of information, they're just sort of stick with me. I love that. I know. That's interesting. I didn't know that. I'm familiar with the Stephen Bartlett, I guess most people are. I love his. The one line I know from Stephen Bartlett, he's probably said more than anything else, which plays right into your hands, I guess, is the fact that he says, the only thing I had to do was recruit well. If I recruit well, good team beneath me, then basically, my job is not because they do the strategy, the hard work, they do the heavy lifting, and as long as I've got a great team, that works. That's the hardest lesson to learn in ethnicities, get better people to do the rules for you, don't try to be all. No, absolutely, absolutely. So, any of the final thoughts from you, David, thinks we haven't, that you might, burning, you want to tell me that I haven't kind of asked the question about, or anything comes to mind? Not necessarily, no, I mean, you know, obviously, I appreciate you bringing me on this podcast. You know, you just before you started recording, you mentioned that, you know, my mom, so, you know, it's worth a highlight that really sees one of the main inspirations for even thinking about starting a business. You know, I was five years old, and her and my dad started a business from scratch, and I seen that unfolding, right? Deep down, I knew that that's the direction that I wanted to go. Being made redundant was just the final tipping point. So, yeah, a little side night here, mother and father. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I mean, I think that those things are exactly what shape who we are and where we go and what we do. So, I want to have the brilliant example of that you, you lived it through your parents and sort of what they did, and I know your mom was very successful in what she did. So, I mean, that's really great. And I think the other point about the redundancy is the fact that, and, you know, that hamsters are, I seem to be twice. But it's interesting when that does happen. I'm in a great believer in that when you get to the low, sometimes then really just catapult you to actually end up being higher than you might have done, if you'd have followed a nice, safe line. I mean, I think that's... And I think there's two choices in that is that, you know, with some people, and it very nearly happens to me, you start thinking, why make? You know, and then the other part of you goes, what are you going to do about it? Right. And I think those are the two differences, is that if you lean into the side of why making it too much, it's going to be a hard time for you. If you lean into what are you going to do about it, I think that's where we've ended up today. No, absolutely. Hey, David, it's great to talk to you. You look like you're in a prison cell, actually, but I'm sure you aren't really... Yeah, it's just a lot of that, yeah, but it is one of the things that's soundproof, boos, more like that. But no, seriously, really good to chat with you. Thanks for all your insights and all the best with your growth going international, and I think from everything you've described, and certainly with the team that you got, you're going to go from strength to strength, so that's really terrific. So, David, thanks very much for your time. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
