In this episode of The Top Floor Podcast, we hear from Jeff Smith, a 50+ year veteran of the specialty music instrument business. Jeff started a "niche" business selling/repairing flutes in 1991 and has grown that unique business organically and through acquisition for the last 30+ years. Hear his insights on...
Acquisition Strategies
Succession Planning
Value of mentors and trusted peers when leading a Business
Value of People
Using your style to become a successful CEO
Importance of continuous learning and humility for leaders
Connect with Jeff on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-smith-3635b622/
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From
The Top Floor Team
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So hello, and welcome to the top floor the podcast where Charlotte area CEOs get to tell their leadership journey My name is Jeff Cass I'm an executive coach and the leader of a peer advisory group for CEOs and business leaders here in Charlotte and I'll be your host today I'm happy to have Jeff Smith from jail Smith who has been in the specialty music instrument business for more than five decades for yourself But for the company for three decades. So Jeff welcome to the show Thanks Jeff. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me Yeah, I'm interested to talk about your story here because it's a long one and you and I've got a chance to talk a little bit about it But very interesting kind of progression throughout your throughout your journey So let's just start with the the basic one. Okay, I'm gonna ask a very open-ended question, but Tell us about your business and tell us about what you do Well the business is operating in Small niches of the musical instrument products business. So we do a number of different disciplines, including manufacturing with a bunch of different manufacturing disciplines we do distribution and We do retail and we also service the instruments. So we've got a bunch of different Departments and we operate across four locations We've got a flute specialty retail store in a suburb of Detroit we've got one in San Francisco and we do flute retail here in Charlotte as well as a lot of our Manufacturing is here in Charlotte. We also have a location in Denver, Colorado That does what we call Huddens so work. So we're making backpacks and traveling cases and so forth for musical instruments so a bunch of different disciplines and we bring it all together in One enterprise and and have a lot of fun with it. Okay, okay And I know the business didn't start us four different locations, right with all of those different kind of arms It started really from you working on instruments and repairing them. Is that correct? Absolutely absolutely so and It really just started with me at a bench Fixing instruments and my background is is as a musical instrument craftsman, and we still keep that as a thread through Most everything we do inside the business has a craftsmanship aspect to it even when we sell instruments At retail we we actually take them through a unique servicing process to sort of optimize the instrument So we're bringing that craftsmanship into what we offer our our clients We do the same thing with the manufacturing of tools and supplies and accessories a Lot of the things we manufacture are things that I had wished I had had when I started My craft in 1977 so I've been invented if you will a lot of tools and and techniques that go along with the tools and And we build those to this day and actually I was before this call. I was in the back Talking to a worker that I've had for gosh 27 28 years and He he was working on a product and I and I looked at how many of these he was building I said mark that's we still sell these This is incredible And and I thought about the genesis of that tool and it's like it's something that I Created for myself to help me do my work better Then what led to the selling of a lot of them and that need for manufacturing a lot of them is I started educating other crafts people and so that's also a big part of my history is as a a teacher of the work and that's how I built the tool and supply business is teaching people how to do Extended techniques if you will and how to you know become more efficient in their work So that led to the design of a lot of products, which we we sell and manufacturer Okay, that's interesting because you and I were talking a while ago I mean many companies have gotten away from service and repair it almost is not economical or Profitable but for you, it's a still a key part and a thread that goes throughout all the businesses and maybe ones that Prompted maybe the growth of manufacturing or other acquisitions. Is that is that correct? Absolutely, so Jeff and I consider that the Repair department is is at the heart of our business Now, it's not the largest part of our revenue stream but it is the heart and so it's it's super important that we constantly refer to it that we learn from it that we bring it to our our clients and bring absolutely a high level of Satisfaction by our clients, but also inform their tools and products that we make and then just the approach we have For all that we do Okay, it's kind of the identity of the company, right? It starts with that and moves on from there and maybe because it's my identity For almost 50 years you've been involved this yeah, yeah now. I could have ditched it, right? I could have sent that aside and said I was only you know X percent of our revenue. Let's let's move on. This is a lot of trouble. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of investment And all that is true by the way, but but it's it's still so so important to me personally But also It's important for a business to have a heart. I think Yeah, I would agree I would agree regardless of how the P&L works on that particular part of the business for you It's it's where the business starts is what it sounds like and that's important to understand I think been understanding jail Smith, right? Absolutely key. Yes, okay Could you talk Jeff a little bit more about some of the acquisitions you made and how you got to the four locations because there's a long History of acquisitions long history. I mean, you know over those 30-some years, right? Yes. Yes well and actually some of the acquisition goes back to my beginnings in in in the Pacific Northwest in a suburb of Seattle. I actually started acquiring Businesses, I think in 1979 or so. So it's it's got I've got a long history of that and in some of that is just based on I'm I'm always looking for opportunities for growth and and Some of that is organic Yes, we want more clients for this division or that division or we want to broaden our product range here or there or offer more services or you know deeper level of of client interaction and so forth, but I look at the the whole ecosystem of our industry and say gosh we could bolt things on to our company that sort of look like us or look like things we Could easily absorb and do and do better and we could grow our our business that way. So I'm I'm constantly Looking across the industry and outside of our industry actually just to for information purposes mostly but I am keen on on growing the business both organically and through acquisition and Acquisition is the way sometimes to to either extend our product range some some what we did when we bought that company Company in Denver that is the cut and so shop out there. We weren't doing any sewing work before then But it we were doing things with accessories and we were also Selling to the same client base that they were and now we could sell to those clients at a broader level So we could offer the same people more product So they could order from one source one invoice one shipping bill this sort of all all simpler for them So there there was an advantage to the client base and advantage to us and the the seller wanted to move on so It was a great fit great fit. I see Yeah, so you're looking for some type of business that will bring new growth for you But is complementary ideally for the business. So with that cut and so business I mean, let me just kind of talk through my interpretation of what you said and tell me if I'm right So this would be like a pouch that you would put the instruments in is that is that right? Yes So they were selling that separately you you could package together with the instruments You're selling or you're repairing and you have different platforms to sell whether it be through the retail stores or Online so you have a channel, you know to the mark multiple channels to the market where you could expand that product line You know as you're as you're as you integrate it into your business. Is that is that how it kind of played out over time? Yes, that's that's well said and and we were already in Advance of even considering acquisition of that company. We were already selling that product at retail. Oh, okay So we're very familiar with the product line. We loved it, you know, and it's like this is good stuff and we We said can we bolt this on to our current apparatus? if we can't really bolt it on and and take advantage of like our leadership team and and the fulfillment department and shipping and so forth if we can't easily incorporate it and get more leverage out of all the all the infrastructure we have Then it's probably not a good fit But we were already selling to the clients. We were already selling at retail And so forth and so on. It's like oh, this was a good fit. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's that one plus one equals three And it sounds like you definitely felt that in that acquisition. Yes very much so You made another big acquisition, which I think your name is somewhat synonymous with flute world I believe is what it was called. Is that right? Can you talk maybe about that one? Yeah, the flute world. We purchased I believe in 2016 and That was our actually our biggest acquisition to date in terms of the size of the deal and Once again, we were we were already doing the same thing They were now essentially by buying them. We bought market share. So we were already retailing Flutes and accessories now there's there's some things they were doing that we weren't doing such as print music they they had a catalog and and we still do have a catalog of 14,000 titles of print music We weren't we weren't doing that prior to acquiring them and they also had a very deep range of Products and ours was more of a curated selection of products. So One thing that Building them on to us and powered the flute world brand with though is going back to the beginning of a conversation that repair department So our repair department was central as I say the heart of the business. It wasn't for them Okay, they they didn't have a repair department a facility that was Anywhere proportional to the level of sales that we had So that's something that we infused into the flute world brand to make it even stronger. So we've You know originally that company was located in the Detroit area And we still operate today there and we also echoed that in San Francisco and we put a retail location there as well I see did they bring any other capabilities online capabilities that were complementary or better? Maybe that what you were doing at that time They had a very good web store They had a very strong web presence and so we we bolted ourselves on to that and and I think we've prone that even further. Yes, okay, okay Any pitfalls or scars leftover from some of these acquisitions you want to talk about? Well, there's there's always challenges with every opportunity. There's a challenge. I guarantee you and and a big part of the challenge in in In business certainly in our business is is the people right? so we're a small business and we're acquiring other small businesses so Every individual both in our business and in the business we're acquiring is is really key So that's not to say that they need to stay with us or it won't work But the personalities are super super key. So it's it's it's getting everybody On board and getting them all aligned and moving towards the same thing. So some of the acquisitions we've done There there was little Organization if you will there was not so much the the Conceptual approach to business and so forth. It just kind of Happened and it happened well. So it flourished, but That's the nature of a lot of small businesses I think and so as we bolt them on and we as we bolt more things on and grow our business We need even more structure We need we need stronger tools and and we need better communication not less we need more okay, okay, and Those those are some of the things I've learned along the way So you some but you must spend a lot of time kind of understanding the people that would be coming and you know Where they would fit in and then from there, you know How you kind of pull them in and integrate them into the business is what it sounds like is that right? Absolutely, and There are some people that are really desirous of personal growth, right and those are the the ones that We want to make sure they have that opportunity and in some respects Acquisitions really supply that that that juice for that opportunity So as we grow our company, we've been able to grow our team and give them more opportunity space Maybe they have more people reporting to them. They they control a bigger part of the budget and and so forth Yeah, they were only you know in Detroit, Michigan But now they have some responsibility in San Francisco or in Charlotte or Denver even is I right? Yeah, okay Yeah, new opportunities for talented people that maybe wouldn't have had them in the past Right, and if we don't grow as an enterprise then it's hard to imagine you know Putting a lid on somebody's growth in that wants to remain in the company Even for myself, I want to I want to continue to grow and as I grow the company it gives me more opportunities Yeah It's good news all the way around I feel Okay, okay. Yeah, that's a good way to go into an acquisition starting with the people and making sure that's the thought throughout You know and into and after integration. Yeah Yeah Okay, well, let's shift gears a little bit. Talk maybe about some of the biggest challenges you have in the business day if you would Well the biggest challenge is me I think and I I say that because as we've discussed I've I've been doing this since 1977 and I have some some knowledge and in fact, there's there's many days where I realize I Know more than I thought I did just because of the experiences. I've had and We we need to replace that We we need to replace me and it's not that I'm ready to retire or move to something else I I love what I do and I want to keep doing it But I don't want to be The the primary go to with this knowledge base, so That's one of the the biggest challenges I have is is It's kind of Planting the seeds around the company that will grow into absorbing what I do what I have what I know and I am trying to build a self-managing company and that is kind of In fits and starts, right? There's there's some some weeks where I go Oh, we we won that one or whatever and then the next three weeks. It's like oh my god This isn't working. So what next what do I do now? But It's it's really Yeah, that I don't want to be so important to the company and I want All my leadership team to to really have You know a piece of that where where I'm actually even energized by how much more they know that I do and how much more they're capable of and and so in some respects I need to kind of fuel that that transition because I can't be here forever and I want the company to to grow and prosper way beyond my time Yes, succession planning is key Have you started a formal process or is it really just concept now for you that you're saying? I need to I need to get started with this well, I I have Concepts around it and I do have a process around it But it hasn't always worked It doesn't look pretty Up to this point. So That's that's why I say it's the biggest challenge and probably I'm at the this the center of that challenge Which is it's it's really on me to do the work around this and I have done some work around it that has led down to kind of some blind alleys You know, so I'm retracing my steps and and and trying again so Yeah, stay tuned. Okay. We're to come got it. Okay So you and I were talking a little bit beforehand because one of the questions that I wanted to ask you is, you know Who's been your best coach or mentor during your career and you had an interesting answer? So please share with the audience kind of what you know, your your thoughts on the best coach or mentor you've had during your career well, I I see great great value in having a mentor I Haven't had that for myself Is I have had people that I could tap into for for their thoughts and perspective and sort of a council if you will of people and That changes over time it morphs as our as our business does But there are there are people I tap into from time to time. I did have a mentor early in my life career who a fellow named Larry Ackerman who taught me the skills of repair, okay? I worked with him for the first a year and a half and of my of my career and then he worked for me the next three or four years part time and so forth and it was a Great relationship. So that's one reason why I understand the value of mentorship and really appreciate it and and I would Ask all young entrepreneurs to go find someone, you know, uh-huh. Mm-hmm. That's get started that way But I I really don't have that for myself and and it's something that I miss Okay Yeah, so you may not have had a mentor But it sounds like you have a network of peers or Confidence that you can go to so maybe talk a little bit about that How did that evolve? How did you bring the group together or is it just pretty much ad hoc for you? so There's there's several people in the industry that I tap into that are kind of peers in the industry But there's also one fellow that I met through the industry a number of years ago and actually had a had a nice call with him this morning and he's somebody that I Brought on when I started getting pretty active with some acquisitions and That he had a deep experience with that in our industry so he knows the people he knows the places he knows the environs and So I've worked with him quite a bit and so he's he's great at Giving me feedback in that area and I'll bounce ideas off of him and vice versa Okay, okay, so mostly inside the industry people that you know and have tapped into when needed is that is that basically what you're saying? Yes, but beyond that I've I've been involved in a couple organizations that have also been peer Organizations that have given me some some fuel and some some ideas here and there and and you know, I use some of those tools that I've learned for example, I was in strategic coach for a couple years and I use a lot of the tools from that learning in my business and They could be very very powerful. So that was a peer group of you know, I don't know 15 other guys or whatever that kind of In the same soup that I'm in, you know, and there'd be a facility class and so forth. That was great. I Say, okay. All right. That's helpful. It's good to have those kind of folks available because it's hard to have all the answers yourself There's no doubt, right? Right. Yeah. So tell us. What do you enjoy most about your role? I I Think that and maybe it's because of how I've designed the role, but it really The role makes you of my unique abilities and when I'm exercising my My strengths and my unique abilities. I Feel good, okay Doing good work I'm doing it in a in a way that energizes me now what I enjoy also is Is the people so the the people in my business. I enjoy Interacting with them on all sorts of things. It could be nothing related to work even it could be just you know Why are you wearing that t-shirt? What does that mean? You know some anime thing or something like that? It's like who is this, you know, what is this and it's just it's just fun and fascinating where I where I learn about the people that work in my in my business and Enjoy engaging with them love watching them interact with each other and and seeing the results of their efforts and I love also giving them opportunity in space and and You know coaching where where it's warranted and I Think that's very fulfilling For me and I love the industry. I'm in I'm a musician at heart That's where it all started and I'm I'm in the music products industry and we we engage with some fantastic musicians we engage with some really smart vendors and suppliers to our company and I feel like we've got all sorts of partnerships both within the company and outside the company and and You know if we can you know kind of enrich the the eco spear with with our efforts then then we're leaving behind a Trail of of goodness and that excites me. I'm glad to be part of that Okay, okay, so you're a musician I'm probably one of the most or the least musically inclined people you will ever meet My daughter played the clarinet and played the piano and I'm learning how to play the piano a little bit But tell us a little bit about what you're a musically. What do you do? Well, I started I wanted to be a guitar player when I was when I was a little kid and I My parents were both musicians and and I approached them about taking guitar lessons and they said well, you got to study piano for a year so I did that with Mrs. Bailey and We studied study piano. I was like, okay, am I ready for guitar now because I really wanted to play guitar so I believe I was eight or nine years old when I started playing guitar and The first guitar I played was actually had belonged to my grandfather and I had to Fix it before I could play it. So maybe that's what the genesis of all this business was is that when I was a very young child I had to learn to Fix an instrument before I could play it and I did that and and then that that took me into guitar lessons where I I You know studied very very seriously and and for many many years. I I you know played And practiced probably typically four hours a day for many many years. So I became very proficient at it played a lot professionally Particularly in my 20s When when I was just starting my craft I was I was doing doing repair work. I was teaching tar and I was playing like four nights a week and And I surviving off of coffee And You could do that in your 20s when you don't have a family and this is this sort of right So, but that was where it all started for me and and still that's That guitar playing is in my roots even though my business today is all about wind instruments So I started in the wind instrument aspect in them in the 70s and I really pivoted Strongly over into the wind instrument world and as a result of that I learned how to play the wind instruments because I needed to know how to test them, right? Okay, I studied trumpet a little bit But I studied clarinet and saxophone and flute and and the double-read somewhat So I took private lessons and you know studied and and and built those skills The only instrument you'd be happy to hear me Performing professionally though is guitar Play all the others at Kind of rudimentary level at that point Okay, you really learned just because it was important for your business. Not because you liked it or you know, you were good at it Right. Yeah, okay. I see okay. Well, that's interesting So I want to go back to something you said a minute ago One of the things you said that you enjoy most about the business is the people and you said in acquisitions the people were really important So when you're running a business and you're leading an organization, those people skills are really important So maybe if you could just talk a little bit about how those people skills for you have evolved over the years That's that's a great Great topic and great question. Thanks for that The evolution has been Not pretty it's it's it's it's it's been messy and But there is evolution that's the good news and maybe this is true with evolution of all things I don't know. It's probably not always pretty and sometimes things are very stagnant and It looks like it's not moving or changing or getting better And then sometimes there's a big leap in improvement and and direction and and so forth So for me the the evolution has been so much about The questions and I do a lot of introspection a lot of a lot of thinking and One of the things I I think about quite a bit is am I asking the right questions and even Am I asking this question today because I asked it three years ago? Also, and I think it's the right question to ask or is this really the right question to ask today. So if that's maybe where my evolution pattern comes from It's it's just that constant questioning of the questions and There are questions for the team. There are questions for myself. There are questions for our industry there are questions about You know what I want for For for my work and You know, what do I see in the future? Is is my vision solid? Have I shared that with with all the right people am I asking the right questions of the right people at the right time? Am I sharing the right information with the right people at the right time? those are those are Are the kind of the the pool I'm swimming in constantly and and I I try very very much to To not fill in all the blanks and have all the answers, but rather do I have the right questions for today? Okay, as you continue to learn and maybe as you're prompting your people to learn is what it sounds like the way you describe it Right? I mean because your situation changes so that same question you asked three years ago is very applicable today potentially, right? I'm assuming that's kind of the direction you're going when you say that Yeah, it can't be or it can be like am I just asking this because? I've been in this place for for quite a while or is there something more important? You know, I think that even I had a conversation with somebody this morning about AI as example and this is something that Business leaders I think need to be talking about both in their businesses, but also peer-to-peer and and learning about it outside of our industries and so forth and because it's It's it's opportunity space, right? It's it's leverage and and so It's exciting when something like that that game-changing comes along and I think we we need to you know bring those sort of things into conversation And I wasn't having a conversation about AI three years ago Mm-hmm. I wasn't asking questions about how to incorporate it with my team in our business But today, I think that's a very smart and reasonable question You know, what do we do right? You know, yeah, I think the situation changes a lot, you know when you think about those people skills I mean, you know, do you have to introduce something that's new and potentially controversial for some people or maybe just you know It's like something they don't want like AI or you know Do you introduce the integration of another business in another city and how do you manage that? We're now you got to communicate and deal with folks that aren't sitting in front of you and you can't go talk to you know in person Right because you've had that situation, right? How did you deal with that? Yes, and and that's something I Still deal with it, and I I don't want to use that word deal with so much, but I That is my Scenario, which is that I have Remote locations. So how do I interact with them? and Am I doing enough and am I doing it often enough and how deep should I go? How often should I visit San Francisco as example, you know What do I say when I'm there, you know because do I want to? You know build the relationships there or do I want to rearrange the store or do I want to talk about the numbers, you know all these sort of things it's when when things are in various locations around the map then you then the management cycles and the management Concepts and tools need to change up a bit Yeah, I mean the tool using what we're using today, which is a zoom discussion right is Something that we didn't have even five years ago really I mean so or we had it but we didn't use it as much as we probably do today just because of the pandemic So has that been a tool for you that you've been able to use maybe a lot better in the last three or four years? Very very much though. Yeah, I remember many years ago. I think this was I want to say the mid 90s or so I Remember a client coming into my shop. He brought in a saxophone for me to serve as for his son and this this gentleman was I believe a professor at a university and He came in and picked up the instrument. He says great I'm going to send my son an email about this and I remember asking him what an email was And and so I've been in business before there was email before there was a website Certainly before there was zoom certainly before there was a eye each one of these things has has brought leverage Right and and we're now I could Reach a team of people when we have our monthly all hands meeting. We do it Virtually, right? Yeah, and even in my building. I am often in my office and Everybody else is in their little corner of the building. Sometimes we bring them all together in one room But then we have the other locations are our virtual But we're using that as a tool for for communicating deeper wider and more often, you know Yeah, I mean as you were talking there I was thinking I mean the evolution of the business had to evolve with all the technology and everything else that happened over the years As you look back on that, you know over the decades that you were in business has that been one of the bigger challenges you've had to face is continuing to evolve and having the business evolve with it whether it be technology or people or You know philosophy, whatever that is Yeah, that's a that's a good question. I I haven't seen that as a challenge though. It probably has been for for some people and Yeah, I I have found it as all of those things have been empowering and If I wanted my business to stay the same, yes, those things would be challenges But I don't want it to be the same. I want it to to to flourish and grow and and that that that brings change with it just Just if the universe doesn't change, but I want my business to change That means something's got to be introduced. That wasn't there before Yeah, I I've never felt like change was a problem for me either and it doesn't sound like it is for you But not that's not the same for every person So when you have a significant change and let's just say AI you said we have to start talking about AI How how do you position that with folks and how do how do you continue to work through? Maybe some of those concerns that people have or the resistance to change I Think this is something that I've gotten better at when you talk about the evolution I Think years ago Jeff I would Typically say Well, this is what we're going to There you go. That was kind of the end of the conversation And now I realize people come from different places and they are in different lives and they have different perspectives and different experiences and and different wants and needs than I have and so I try to Understand those and I try to approach everyone With maybe let's say more empathy Okay, so so I could kind of understand and appreciate that that place that they're in and I try to Speak to that place that they're in as much as I speak to them There are still times frankly where there's a proclamation You know, we're going to take Fourth of July off. It's not up for discussion, you know there are some proclamations, but then there's a lot of I Think people are more comfortable with the proclamation if if the 80% is is more empathetic right understanding and and that Is more appreciative of their stances and so forth, but there are sometimes frankly where where you get to a point where Certain people just don't want to come along for the ride and and when that's true It's I say I get it. I understand We're not for each other any longer, you know, not business and and it's it's okay. Oh, you know please please Exit gracefully and and I wish you well and wants you to find a place where you could Grow and prosper for yourself, you know, that might not be here Love it if it was here for everybody though, then we'd be Super magnet. Yeah, yeah, but this is not reality, right? I mean everybody. Yeah, it just doesn't happen Yeah, so command and control is not your style of leadership. It doesn't sound like it sounds like you're at a point now Where you maybe had some of that more in the past and that was a bigger proportion of it But it's not today, right? I mean, so maybe just describe a little bit about your leadership style Yeah, I Would say that I'm you know, there's some leaders that are very dynamic I'm not I'm not dynamic I remember reading this book one time where somebody said the CEO means chief energy officer and and I thought Am I the chief energy officer? It's like I don't think I am so hate to disappoint that author, but there's there's all sorts of different styles of CEOs and my my style is is Very I would describe myself as very even You know, I don't have outbursts and I don't You know get super excited about this and super depressed about this. It's like You could kind of know what to expect from me and I think that's That's useful to many people those some people would prefer that I'd be like super high energy and you know That sort of thing, but I Think that's my style and the other the other aspect of my style and by the way I think style is something that I'd be very curious what other people's that have worked for me or do work for me I would say about my style because I might be totally misinformed of all I see of myself, but I'm I think at the core. I'm I'm a learner I want to learn more and and apply more of what I've learned and So that's what Keeps me going keeps me interested keeps me energized and that's what I think keeps the business growing thus far Yeah, okay. That makes sense Yeah, I think the style is an interesting point because you're right a lot of people have a vision of a CEO and maybe it's a Steve Jobs, you know, or it's some other visionary that is very you know kind of you know, they're the face of everything, right? But that that's not the business you built very successfully over three plus decades, right? I mean and and I think part of the message for everybody is being tuned with your own style You know, whatever works right for you in the business along with the complimentary people that are around you to make it work Right, and that's a that's a great point that one of the things we need to do is find various ways to get to know ourselves and When we get to know ourselves, then we've learned that we have strengths But then on the other column of that led sheet is the weaknesses and and or or just the gaps if you will And and maybe we don't even call them weaknesses because that implies that we need to strengthen those it's like We don't necessarily need to strengthen those maybe we choose to but We need to fill in those gaps with with other people that could fill those gaps really well and then then we've got all you know a complete picture and The the most important thing is to to really understand who we are what our strengths are and tap into those and maximize those Yeah, you mentioned you'd like to know kind of what other people maybe think of their leadership style Right, I think you know everybody everybody kind of thinks of that I believe you know if you're leading a business you don't necessarily know but you strike me as a lifelong learner You're probably asking questions that give you a sense of what people think and how they react to the different things and maybe your style Is that is that a fair statement, you know, just based off a little bit. We've talked. Yes. Yes, I would say so Yeah, so being self-aware is part of the message for you probably to everyone, right? I mean you have to be self-aware on your style. Yes, very much so and one of the things I do find with with people and this is something one of those questions I constantly ask myself is Some people don't know how they're perceived They know what they're thinking what they're feeling they know What they want to communicate they know what they want to change and effect and this sort of thing, but Most of us don't know how other people read us. Uh-huh in my experience and and that's Gosh, I think it's a superpower if we can know what other people are Seeing when we say something when we get up there and and try to lead a meeting and so forth. You know, uh-huh. Yeah, I think that awareness That awareness is very important. I agree with you. Yeah, yeah Absolutely could be a superpower, you know, yeah, okay Okay, um, we're gonna be careful of the time here a couple more questions for you. Okay, so Tell us a little bit and then this is kind of along the same lines that we're going down But uh, what have you learned about yourself, you know over the three decades that you've led this business? Um great question and I think that um I have Learned that I'm capable That I could actually do this that I could survive doing it and That's really big Um You know to be um An entrepreneur business founder or whatever whatever label you want to put on it um Involves a lot of risk, right? Uh-huh and some of us are more comfortable with risk than others I've I think I've learned that I'm Pretty comfortable with risk. Okay. Um and I think that's something that I Don't see in everybody Um, and that's okay. We're we're all different and we can't all be business owners, right? Right, right? Please. Please don't Let me be the guy. There you go, but I I uh, I do find that you know, um I Had you know question that uh early on in my career I remember and I've told this story to others that there was a kind of a seven-year point in my In my career where I finally got to the place where I said, you know, I think I'm going to be able to do this Okay. Okay. I think it took that long to really to really say I'm going to be able to do good work And and earn a living doing this Okay, that was that seven-year mark for me So you never envision yourself running a business on your own for your whole career. Is that it? I didn't have a clear picture of that, but I I did have a clear picture that I wanted to Do stuff that hadn't been done and I also felt that I was not kind of made of the the cloth that would work well and in Somebody else's organization that um I was kind of more of an independent Uh guy Okay, okay, you know when I was a kid All through high school. I was reading books about all these great What they used to call the robber barons, you know, the the rocket fellers and and carnegies and morgans and this this sort of thing I always was fascinated by the um the the stories of People getting rich by building an enterprise, you know whether it was oil or a railroad or you know, you know, DuPont or whatever it was I was always enamored with those stories and I wanted to Kind of find my own story that was similar now. I haven't got that far but Well, I mean you didn't build an oil business or a railroad But you build a successful business over this time and you've certainly grown it So I don't know maybe you've kind of lived out kind of what you were fascinated with as a kid is what it sounds like to me Um, I suppose so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean as you look back on it. That's true. So so given that my final question here So what advice would you have for a new executive or a new CEO? Oh, um I You know my my observation is that A lot of people are thrust into the the C suite without being um equipped and Some of that is because we are often Promoted for doing good work. Um, we are If we excel in the sales department as example, we might be promoted to the VP of sales um Being a great sales person doesn't make you a great VP of sales And this is something that I think At first when somebody's becoming an executive the the first ingredient to success is humility and And if they don't have that or it can't be Um mentored into that state then I think it's not going go well um and I think we we have to kind of come to terms with with You know understanding that we We aren't fully equipped and we don't even know what we don't know perhaps And the first step is to find to learn what we don't know Before we go about Becoming knowing, um, so I think it's it's important for That person who's been promoted into that role to to have a a sequential Stairstep approach to becoming That that leader that they would want to follow And the leadership is Not created by a promotion. It's not created by a title Leadership is created by followers Without followers, you're not a leader and the the followers um Build that leader and so I think it's it's super key for that that um Person that's been thrust into leadership space to to really consider that They've never been there and it may not be in their dna now. Maybe some people have have a more More skills to take into that role than others and maybe more demeanor or or whatever it is Whatever's required, but I think gosh doing that that Inventory of yourself and saying What do I need here now? What don't I have how do I go about acquiring that? And and just having that kind of humble stance will likely lead to greater success For the organization for the people that you lead and um more fulfillment for yourself Yeah, it's not about them right it's not about them being promoted It's about understanding the job and your point and being humble enough to be able to say I don't have all the answers Is that a fair assessment? Yes Okay Yeah, that's that's great advice. Jeff. So um, so I appreciate that I'm gonna I don't have any more questions for you right now, but I want to thank you for being on the show I personally am fascinated by your success over the last three decades, you know working So it's been uh, it's been a very good experience for me to learn more about it today. Thank you. Well, thank you, Jeff I really appreciate being here with you
