- Hey, Mark, good to see you. - Good to see you, too. - Oh, well, since we spoke, but let's just do a recap and the question would be, so what's the story of how you got into the seat that you're in now? - Okay, so yeah, how do I get into the seat where I am now? So I'm the managing director of EPX technical services and have been for nearly 20 years now. And basically, I've fell into this seat probably for one of a better word. Started the business with my business partner, I met at university, both techies. And we both started off doing IT support, loads of different sort of technical services. And we just started off doing techy, techy stuffs, being techy, and as long as we had a bit more money in the bank at the end of the month than we did at the beginning then, we're happy at that point. But that only lasts to a certain extent. And then as you sort of scale and get bigger, get some employees and things like that, it gets to the point where you're like, well, I'd better drop the tech and I'd better focus on the actual, the business side. So I naturally fell more into the managing director seat than Dan did so I naturally just started doing that. So I think long story short, that's what I'm an accidental MD out of necessity. - But actually it is something I do enjoy doing, much more probably than a technical in hindsight. But yeah, that's basically how I got into it. - No, okay. And so let's just follow up on what you just said there. What's the big you most enjoy then Mark? What's the most enjoyable bit of the job that you're in? - I personally, I get a real kick from the, I think it's leadership, it's a planning strategy execution. I do quite like change management stuff. So look at processes, make amendments to that. But I think it's just leading the team. I like working with people that are competent and driven and they get the vision, the culture, the alignment for that. I like crafting that side of things and getting the right people aligned to it 'cause when that happens, everything just feels simple. Everything sort of just works once that's, and you can just sit back and look at it and think, and I'm not really doing anything, if I'm gonna be honest, everyone else is doing it. But I'm there just to make sure that they're okay and they're doing it and I just get a kick from the fact they enjoy what they're doing and everything seems to be mostly goes okay. So yeah, that's why we're doing it. - Mod is there in that sense, Mark, in that you feel like you're not doing anything, but you do have to create it in the first place which is exactly what you've done. So just talking about that 'cause how many employees have you got EPX now? - So we've got 28 employees. Moten in the UK, we've got a few bases of South Africa for four time in South Africa as well as well. So they've been with us for years and they are a part of the team. They're just happy to be based there. But yeah, that's how big we are. - And that's over 20 years building the business up and I know you've done some M&A stuff as well. But what's over that period of time, what have been some of the interesting challenges about scaling up? I mean, you mentioned scaling up and obviously it can be, it's a tricky issue. What are the things that you've learned through that process? - I think the scaling up process is interesting. I suppose it's awareness about your intention about scaling up is quite important, we've found. I think when you first start up phase, it's all just literally gut feel. You look at, you do like market-based pricing, don't you? You look at your competitors and you kind of charge a bit less on what they're charging just to get the work across the line. And everything's very much ad hoc. And it's like, is that premise of, have we got a bit more money at the end of the month than we did at the beginning? As long as we do, then we're okay sort of thing. And I think the scaling bits are interesting one where you're going from that gut feel to really starting to define what you want to achieve. And then that transition from, again for us, moving from technical into more a leadership, leading a business, business mindset as opposed to a technical mindset. That takes a bit of time to do. You gotta learn, you gotta learn to reap P and L as a balance sheet. So you gotta write a business plan that you get put into the top draw for the first year or two. And it's like, no, a problem should actually use this on a more regular basis and actually execute against it. And I think it is then define what good looks like and work towards that. And then once you've hit that phase where you sort of, you know what good looks like, you're then hitting, you're then achieving that. It's then the next phase which is that starting to build those teams. Right, okay, we can, as owners, we can define and deliver against it. But actually, how do we start getting our team to do that? 'Cause we can't scale it with just us two. You gotta get other people to, you gotta be able to delegate and pass accountability and responsibility on. And that's difficult, you know. And that's cultural, vision, alignment, communication, getting all that working, information flowing up and down the organization in a way which everyone feels like they're heard and they're part of it and they're all growing in the same direction. And yeah, so though there's been three distinct phases for us at the moment. And that's what we've done in order for us to scale. And again, you've go through plateaus and growth periods through all of that. That's just a natural process, a part of doing it. No, absolutely. And your point about, it is about the people, isn't it? And recruiting the right people, getting the right culture and then getting alignment and then makes that work. In all of that, you've absolutely led into what I was gonna say next, 'cause each other are plateaus and so on and so forth. So there are elements where presumably there's that risk piece because what comes first? Is it the kind of the growth or the people or do I get the people to generate the growth? Have you ever had that kind of scenario? - I think we've always, again, when you're small, I think it's always the case where you've got to go for growth, not being yourself out, but certainly push yourselves to more than you're feeling comfortable with and then get people on board in those early stages. Because you probably haven't quite got your commercials nailed or we certainly didn't, to do that future, right? Let's invest in people and then the growth will come. I think the, yeah, I think it's all a bit chaotic. There's all different things. Again, those plateaus, you grow because you'll pick up one or two decent sized customers and you grow through those acquisitions of them coming on board. And then what you realize is what all worked in the past doesn't work in the future. When we were a size of five engineers, everyone could talk to each other, everyone knew all the customers, everyone knew all the people that we worked with and you got really good close relationships and all the engineers because they all knew everything. They're all at the same level. But once you get beyond five engineers, you're at the point where you've got to start documenting and not everyone can remember everything and then you start getting to the point where your documentation becomes a lot more important and then getting the culture of changing that is quite a difficult transition and that's where you get a plateaus where you try things, they don't work and you lose a bit of focus. We went through a phase where we're trying to document everything and get everything rigid and things like that but the customers didn't like it 'cause it was too rigid. So we had to pull that back and we did it with the best intentions but the outcomes didn't produce what we wanted. So we've had to go back to the drawing 'cause it was all that sort of messiness and trying to figure this all out. - No, I know how you get that and you're absolutely right. I have a whole number of who I deal with it. That putting processes in and those kind of disciplines are so important because you realize you do begin to fall apart of it if you don't have those things in place and you have to learn the hardware, I guess. So, and so going back to the people bit we've talked about earlier which is important in culture. What might be one thing that you've learned through all this period of time in terms of recruiting somebody? What's one of the key things that comes to mind if you have a new position, you want to bring somebody on board, what's right at the front of mind in terms of what's important that's going to make that recruitment work? - I think the cultural alignment is by far the most important. If you don't, again, learn the hardware, if you don't get the right cultural fit for the people, then everything becomes a lot harder. When you've got cohesive team with the similar outlooks, then maybe not the amount of similar approaches in terms of what they're trying to achieve and they understand and they get behind what you're trying to do. Yeah, it's simple. So, as part of recruitment, we really heavily focus on the cultural side. I think all of our advertisements, so when we advertise for new people, it's part of our job descriptions, we really, there's a massive section about culture saying, this is what we are about. This is what we're looking for. If this doesn't resonate with you, if this doesn't excite you, probably wouldn't apply. So, the thing, and that happens a lot of our recruitment process. We try and recruit people out, if I'm gonna be honest, and say, this is really important, it's really important, and things like that. So, that's what we try and do. And do you find that's even more important? 'Cause I suspect, I mean, I presume you've probably got a breadth across ages, but you might have generally in your business kind of a younger set of people, but do you find that younger people have different requirements aspirations and desires these days? Exceeds smiling. Yeah, it's interesting, you know, and I think COVID has obviously been a massive push forward for change in culture. Yeah, I think there's definitely a switch in mindset. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad switch, but I think there is definitely more of a culture nowadays of, again, what as an employee are you going to do to obviously push the team member forward or the employee forward? Yeah, and it's very much, and a lot more focus on welfare nowadays, we notice as well. It's making sure not only from a worse perspective, are they doing well, but actually from a personal perspective, we notice as well, it's like, and we don't wanna intrude, but it's always that careful balance where we notice, we find a lot of the generation, we are getting more involved in our personal welfare, making sure they're okay, signposting them, giving them support, that sort of stuff to make sure that they are mentally well, as well as they're sort of the good from an employment and a career perspective as well. That is definitely a change that we notice from the younger generation coming in. No, absolutely, and that clearly is a trend, and that it all tends to get mixed up as well with things like working from home, where actually there tends to be... It's a really interesting situation we have now in terms of what was the some benefits in an office, but the slowly benefits at home. Do you have a clear policy? How do you make the working from home kind of operate? Yeah, I mean, we went through transition when COVID hit, we went fully remote, and we stayed fully remote. We did have a small office presence, but we stayed fully remote for a couple of years, much longer than majority of the people, but we found that collaboration, and again, part of that, yeah, I mentioned earlier about some of the ways that we're trying to structure the business didn't quite align to what the customers wanted. And part of that, it was like, actually, we need to come back into the office, there needs to be that collaboration between the team and things like that. So we have defined, so we do do three days in the office, two days, remote, and we sort of say, look, choose these ones, we first days, we want people in Mondays and Fridays as optional from that perspective. And that mostly works. And I think that's really built that team up again. And again, that ability just to listen out on what's happening in the office and pick up conversations and just being more plugged in to what's going on. So yeah, so that's the approach we've taken, and we feel like that's a good balance. - That just sounded great, balancing, that could sense. Excellent, going back to, again, you talked about moving from being the tech into the kind of leadership. Just talk about what's your biggest kind of learning in terms of being kind of the MD and the leader of the business? - So in terms of that transition. Yeah, the transition was, I think just letting go. And the other thing is, by the time I let go, I was ready, I know I should have let go a while ago. But again, it's a bit of the leap into the unknown. Part of your identity is how you've been doing for the last, yeah, I've probably only been really properly doing the MD role 10 years. So I'll probably do techie 10 years and MD 10 years. And I think, again, I probably could have cut that down by two years. But I think it's just that realizing that this business will not get us to where we want to do, sorry, this business will not get us to where we want to be if I don't let go. And I really focus on building the business and getting to a position where we can scale it. So that was a big transition. And once I made a click, I was like, I don't want to touch this stuff. And I never touch it. I'm the worst person they speak to now about anything technical. They ask me to do anything. They know there's a problem, which is great. And that's the best way to be, really. - I guess the other thing in your kind of business, I mean, it's easy to, if you're not involved in the techie stuff of the day today, you soon, it's fast moving. So you're kind of probably getting a bit out of touch. So I guess that-- - Yeah, I mean, obviously, I keep up with the principles of what it is. But put me in front of a computer that needs fixing. I've got no clue. - And did you have any help or what did you, to take you on that journey and forget you into the leader position? It obviously have done for 10 years. What helps to support you do that? - Yeah, I think we are fortunate. So we hit a plateau and we'll set that plateau for probably one or two years. We couldn't break past it. And I just, so the thing that really ignited that change was I reached out to a local, well, about an hour away, a much larger IT coming about four times our size and emailed them and said, can I come and have a chat? We're a bit stuck, not quite sure what to do. Can we just come and have a half an hour of your time and emailed them in 15 minutes and say, yeah, come over for the day. And we went over for the day and I'd spent 10 years developing our database system to run our business. And we've been 10 minutes to turn it up to the meeting. So if you need to scrap it, you need to get these standard systems. You need to get involved and there was a massive ecosystem within our industry that we weren't aware of. We're so isolated and insular. And I think that that ability to start looking outwards, looking to what is available to us, really open our eyes. And I think it's part of that then we got into the ecosystem and then we got into peer groups. We're very fortunate in our industry. I think it's a bit of an unusual industry where we have a peer group that we turn up to quarterly and I sit in a room with 10 of our IT owners. And we just talk business, talk about maturing, talk about scaling, talk about all those sorts of things. And that has really propelled us forward from that perspective. - Now, I remember you talking about that before and I can see the real benefit because it's all about best practices and now everybody's got the best ideas. I do remember you telling me that also the social timing that actually learn a lot more almost than in the formal time, which is. - Yeah, I mean, peer groups are brilliant. And if there's peer groups for people in their industries, I'll definitely recommend doing it or just general peer groups anyway. But that ability, yeah, that ability to go and speak to people. Within the structure, it's really quite rigid. You've got set times and you've got to talk about particular things, but then we go away for three days. So in the evenings, we go out for a meal, go out for a few drinks and that's really actually where some of the stuff gets pulled out. And yeah, we've got to be honest in the room and sometimes it could be hard to hear what you're being told, but that's probably what you need to hear. - No, absolutely, absolutely. No, but I admit you were best at that time. And I absolutely, and you know, I'm kind of involved in a similar thing and therefore, you know, people working together is where you can really kind of go, as they say, much farther doing that kind of thing. So, no, okay, excellent. Well, a couple of final questions. One would be kind of about the future. What do you think, I mean, either in your market or your business or when you think about the future, what do you think of? - So, yeah, that's an interesting one, really. So the next phase that we want to, we want to really be tackling with the business. So we've been really focusing on building the team, getting our leadership team really strong and functioning and performing really well. And I think we're probably not too far away from that. I think for me, it's starting to look at beyond that, I've been running and I've been being the MD of EPX for like I said, 10 years, been in 20 years. And for me personally, I think it'll be looking at what can I do beyond that? Can I actually elevate someone more into my seat and elevate probably a team member into that seat and give myself that ability to work more on the bits that I really enjoy. Is that strategy? Is that execution that planning, that side of things? Yeah, delegates and the stuff that I'm okay at, but I don't enjoy as much. The day-to-day stuff, really. So for me, it's more elevating. It's building that succession for me, so it's not so reliant upon myself. And then seeing what other opportunities come along, for EPX, it's just going on and growing. We've got a five-year plan of what we want to do. We're on track to hit that. And yeah, it's just giving our team opportunities to grow and develop within that. 'Cause we're a team of 30, could be considered as too small by some. Some like it, some don't. We just want to grow that and give those people the opportunity to grow into different roles within the business as well. No, excellent. And great to hear you talk about succession planning because that's always so important to be preparing for that. Because we know at the end of the day, sometimes then you kind of want to move, but we want to move to the next day. And you haven't prepared for it. You don't necessarily have the people to step into those slots, so. So no, that's great. Sounds like the future of positive terms of growth for you. So kind of final question, really. Bit of a fun one, really. But any kind of recommendations on the books or the podcasts or those kind of things that you find particularly really kind of fun or useful or good for downtime or whatever. What was your recommendations, Mark? - For podcasts. I mean, I always like a bit of derivative CEO, CEO. - All right. - Yeah, I mean, that's a bit of a classic one. That's always a fun one for that one. I think if I was to recommend a book that what I found very transformational for our business, it's definitely Traction by Gina Rickman, well, Rickman. So that, you know, before I read that book, we were a little bit chaotic, but that brought a very simple-to-use business framework that just allowed us to scale. - Did you apply EOS in your business then? - Yeah, yeah. That was one of the big transformational pieces that we got from the peer groups is, we need to put a structure in place so we can, you know, again, get everything down simply in a sort of a one-page vision, values, culture, your plans and communicate, to communicate, communicate. That's basically what we did. Now, that was one of the biggest changes to the business and what allowed it to move forward. - No, excellent, no, and absolutely great book and great system, and I'm just curious to ask now that you've said that because it does create that, or, you know, the six elements of it helping you even run meetings and all those kind of things. So when did you implement that just out of interest, Mark? Was that early on, I mean, are we talking years ago? - Probably eight, eight years ago, I think. Yeah, so I think it was when I transitioned to more the MD role, stuck for a little bit, got advice, went into the ecosystem, and then we found, by going out there and looking, we got recommended looking into this, and then we implemented it, and we got external facilitators that run our meetings and all that sort of stuff, and it just keeps us on track, and, yeah, it's really, really powerful. So yeah, probably about eight years, it takes about two years to implement, and then years to refine, but it's very powerful. - And that was coming by final question then, and that is how it looks now. So in other words, how would you say you still operate EOS, or do you operate EOS, but kind of customized for your business, or how does that work? - No, EOS is, EOS, we follow it pretty rigidly, in terms of how they do things. We use all the terminology, look at the meeting rhythms, the meeting structures, all of that sort of stuff, so we tend to follow it. And for us, it's, again, I think that's a big contributor to why the business just seems to run really smoothly. So as you probably know, you'll rate your business every sort of quarter, every year, how often you wanna do it. I think we started, we're in the mid-50s, out of 100. Whereas we're now in the mid-90s, every quarter, we get the entire organization or the entire team to rate us on that. And it feels like it, because we got our processes, we got our people, we got our vision and culture, and our attraction, we hit our targets and all the other things that goes with that. And it just runs, so it's basically, if it's not broken, don't fix it, sort of thing. - No, that's great to hear that kind of success story, and it is a great model, and it can work really well to get you to those kind of disciplines. So no, great to hear that you did that. Excellent, Mark. - Perfect.
