Hi, this is John Nolan from Viscid UAE on the Top Shelf podcast. Today I'm joined by Deena Guao Kwong, who I think I got her name wrong again, so bi apologies. But look, I'm really excited to have a chat here with Deena today and to find out her story on her leadership journey. So Deena, I'd love to start off with a question, ask you the question a little bit about explain a little bit about your business and how did you end up in the UAE? Sure, sure, sure. First of all, I'm sorry I made that face about when you were pronunciating my name because nobody can ever pronunciate my name right on the first try. So it's now your fault, it's my parents fault giving me a very beautiful but difficult Chinese name. So it's all good. So I am the founder and CEO of China Gravy, which is a China-centric digital marketing agency with help service-based companies to enter the Chinese market through the digital channels in branding, branding advertisements, campaigns, influencer campaigns and SEO SEM. And how did I end up in Dubai is actually thanks to COVID. I think lots of people have their COVID stories to tell, but my story is that COVID drove me to Dubai and because my company is purely remote-based, so our team all work from home remotely from all over the world and I practically can be anywhere I want. And during COVID, I was just, I mean, everybody knows about the China-COVID story, so I won't bore you with the details. So I did not like what was going on there by end of 2021. But before that, I was already overseas for a long time, but during COVID, I got stuck in China for a year and a half. And then I decided by end of 2021, I did not like what was going on there. And I left and originally I was trying to just have a vacation overseas, but things got worse and I didn't want to go back to China. And then I ended up in Dubai. And at the beginning, Dubai didn't strike to me at the place I wanted to be at, like lots of people. But later on, I discovered that despite all these things that I did not like, and the surface level, like superficial and all that hope this is not offending anyone. But like, the life here is really good. Business opportunity is really good. And because China, UAE and China, GCC has a really good relationship and coming up. So it presents a lot of great opportunity for my company and for my personal growth. That's why I decided to relocate to Dubai. And it's a long story. I'm sorry. But that's how I ended up in Dubai. And I'm loving it. No, it's fascinating. I mean, look, everyone's got a unique story of how they came to Dubai. So it's a great job. I love starting off with that question. So tell me, when did you start the business? I started this town company in 2013, where I before previous years and for three years, I was in China helping two companies. One is a Italian architecture designing firm, who set up a China representative office in Chengdu where I'm from. And the second one was a elite university admission consulting firm from the US. They help students to go into getting to Ivy League universities in the US. So I set up their China branch and as well for three years, I was doing that. But I ended up with three years, I got burned out. And then I was like, I'm out. I would just get the baby back to you guys. And then I went to Thailand for vacation. And it was not there. I because I had a reputation of being the Chinese expert, the China expert. So some people started to hire me and ask me, hey, I want to go to China. What's going on? We don't know the market. We don't understand the regulation. We're so confused. Can you help us? So I was like, okay, I can help you. So I started with independent consulting. I started with a few independent consulting firm in Thailand. And then slowly I realized so many people need help when they enter to China. So I was like, okay, I'm going to just formalize this, establish a company and then just like institute institute, institute what I'm doing. And then I asked my previous boss from the admission consulting firm whether he wants to do this with me. He's like, oh, yeah. And then so we started this company and registered the company within a month in the US. While I was in Thailand, he was in the US and he was back and forth from the China and US. The reason he was so into it was he as American struggled with entering China, even though he was traveling in between China and the US. He's like, really lost in many, in many ways. And there are still many misinformation and all those anti-promises from all the different companies and that he can never find any good, trustworthy people to get into the market. But since he worked with me for three years, and when I tell him my vehicle, he's like, yeah, so that was the time in 2013 weeks, that leads to the company and I've seen going on since 11 years. So your company, I understand is digital marketing company helps specifically service-based companies to build their brand awareness and sort of enter the Chinese market, build their brand awareness, build relationships, speed to be relationships. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? And a little bit more about your employee footprint as well around the world. That would be really interesting. Okay, sure. So we help service-based companies to enter China's market, not only B2B, but can be B2C or B2B2C. So our signature industries that we're serving are real-state education and hospitality. So from real-state companies, we help companies to establish the brand awareness in China and also acquire direct buyers for the real-state projects or properties or to help them to establish partnerships with local real-state agencies or immigration officers or any or investment officers and all those relationships to help them with B2B2C. So for education, we'll help universities, academic training schools, student housing, can be overlapping between real-state and education, so we'll help them to do the same. Acquired, direct, client-based students who want to study in the university, students want to go to their training camps, summer winter camps, or to help these organizations to establish partnerships with universities, study abroad agencies, English training schools, or any other organization they want to establish partnership with. So that's a B2B2C model again. And for hospitality is mostly for branding. So like for many other clients, there are more about trying to get the brand awareness from the Chinese market. So for example, a few of our big-name client, like Stixen's with Anantara, they are internationally pretty well known, but in China, because we have a very unique internet environment where loss of information, we have a different set of information. So these brands are not as well known as internationally. So that's why we help them to do the brand awareness campaign, engage with influencers, less of the B2B side, because they're already on all the search engine on the OTCs, online travel agencies. They just need people to get to know them through influencers, through a CEO branding. So these are what we do with them. And our employees, as I mentioned earlier, purely online, everybody work remotely. So this is quite interesting, because from the beginning in 2013, two things are unknown for people around me, especially in the Chinese community. One is what is social media? What is digital marketing? At that time, China was still coming up and coming, and we do the concept of digital marketing is not well known. So people understand as like, oh, yeah, you're running an advertisement company. Oh, yeah, I'm doing that. I'm running a PR company. Okay, I'm doing that. And second is everybody work remotely, because everybody can work from home. For the longest time, people don't understand. I mean, my family and friends don't understand what I was doing, because I was traveling around. I kind of have a luxury of having a good life, and I'm still doing okay, but I'm working, but not working. So for longest time, I think I was a spy. I was like, what are you doing? It only took a COVID for people to understand, oh, yeah, she was working while at home while traveling. So our employees are the same. So they are from China. 80% of employees are from China. So they work from home. And at the beginning, they have difficulty like adapting the working from home model as well. It's same as me, because they don't know how to explain to the family and friends. And 20% of them overseas. So even today, we do have office spaces, but our employees, they choose not to, they choose to stay home, work from home. Because one is that it's, I mean, obviously easier. And second is, we are our clients are from all over the world. So we have the US, Europe, and South East Asia. So we also need to meet our clients for their schedule to have meetings. So it doesn't make sense for our people to go to the office and have to stay up late to have the calls for, say, for US clients. So our employees prefer to stay home and work from home. And the other thing is we actually only hire people who are stay-home moms and disabled people. So these people, these people, they can, they already stay home. They have the skills, especially stay-home moms, they have the skills, they have the time, and they need this kind of flexibility to stay with the kids. So we have one of our, that's why we also have a very loyal base of team, even we work from home, which is unconventional. So we have eight, four-time people, and 30 contract-based employees. And these are all over in China. And at least 60% of them are stay-home moms. So how did you find setting up in Dubai? And how do you find Dubai as, you know, as an H to run the business globally from Dubai? How do you find that? I love it, because Dubai offers all those support for the business setup. And also the geographical location for the time zone works for us perfectly is just because mostly we work with China, US, and Europe. So Dubai is just right in the middle. And then I can have my meeting with my team every day in my early mornings, which is early after me for tea. And I can have our call as our US client in a similar manner. So it works perfectly. And secondly, the environment here is actually providing a very supportive opportunity for our business, because GCC and China are what buddies, and we're like going really well. And there are lots of opportunity from China to the GCC to Dubai or in GCC to China. So it works geographically and also strategically, and the business opportunities here is enormous. Okay, so now I want to put a little bit more on Dina, the person. I'd love to know, Dina, what are the biggest challenges that you have overcome on your journey, on your leadership? That's a very difficult question to answer. I think, we're even the successes, what are your biggest successes to date on the whole journey? I think I can be both a challenge and success is I have this belief that doing business and managing team is like being a person. So if you treat everybody nicely, equally, and respectfully, you will grow personally and professionally. So I guess what I take of my biggest challenge is getting people to have the same value as me, where work is not just work. Work is part of your life, because what you do, what you do for living and what you do for work, it should be the same. In line with your value, in line with what you're doing. So I've got some challenges where people are like, oh, yeah, work is just work. I'll talk to me, that kind of thing. But then the other side, these also faltered people that I enjoy working with, so enjoy work with me and formed a very strong bond of the team with me and with the company and also neutral to the growth of the company. I don't know if that's a challenge or success, I guess, is both. Yeah, look, I think it's a big success. We clearly identified what the culture is and what the values that you want to set the business up with. And you've attracted individuals that have those values. And if you're saying that your attention is high, then you're obviously doing a great job. So I would say it's a big success. Thank you. Yeah. Now, what does the future look like? And what do you see as the challenges going forward? So the future is, I have, I put lots of thoughts on this, especially on the 10 years mark of the company. So for the future, I still think that the market of entering China is huge, enormous, and also the gap of entering the gap of the knowledge and the professional practice of entering the market is also huge because entering China requires loss of local knowledge, not only language, but also the regulatory or the business culture or the other very nuance of the difference between international and China. So as our company, we, I mean, it sounds very arrogant to say, but I think we have mastered the art of bridging the gap between foreign, between overseas companies with the Chinese market. So we will still going with this direction and trying to bridge the two markets, especially global to China. And in other sides, that are nowadays, and also spending 20% of the time forming a advisory company to bridge the China with overseas. So before that was overseas to China, and now I'm spending some time with China to overseas as well. So many Chinese companies are looking for expansions overseas as well. But again, same story as where I started with the global to China. Chinese companies struggle with entering the market, entering the international market, and then growing the international market. So I'm spending 20% of the time to form a advisory team and company doing that. And I have formed a company called Black Alpha Advisory that was two corners here in the UAE, actually, to do this business. And that's where the future holds for me and for China, greatly. Amazing. So look, it sounds like you had a really incredible journey. Thank you. It's fascinating that the opportunity, it seems like it presented itself to you. I think when you were, I think you mentioned offline before we started, you were living in Thailand. And it sort of helped your lap because people started asking you to help with them to enter Thailand. From that sort of original defining the requirements to suddenly being here in Dubai, having 20 employees with freelancers around the world. It's been a really fascinating journey. I'd love to know one of the biggest learnings you've taken from that as a CEO. I think this, I mentioned this earlier, I have a strong believing life is to be often going to be a good person. I think all my learning and success or challenge or failures are, I mean, I don't see failures and failure, but as learning curve is to just try to be a good person at whatever we do and treat everybody. I mean, this is some cliche, but I actually do have a very strong believing that is, I believe that if you are a good person, not thinking about current return, like I'm doing this with you, I need an immediate return, like what can this podcast bring me? I do not think that way. I feel like everything I do will somehow help me move forward. And that has been my biggest learning from being a leader and from being leading a company is to just like trying not to think a short term game, but a long term just make yourself feel good and be a good person, be authentic, and treat everybody with respect. Okay, sounds cliche, but I really just strongly believe that. No, no, I love it. And it sounds like you're passionate about what you do. And I'm sure you work very hard, but what do you do in your personal life and your downtime? What do you do? Oh, I love that. That's one of the reasons I love Dubai is there's so many things to do. I love diving, I love running, I love outdoors stuff, and I like anything like sports, sports, active based things. And Dubai presented a very good opportunity in place for that. Yeah, well, Dubai is one of the most active places in the world. Exactly, yeah. It's a hard place to get bored, put it that way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so you know, you're an experienced senior leader now, successful, see founder CEO. What advice would you give to an 18 year old starting off on the entrepreneurial journey? I think, besides what I was mentioning earlier, my strong belief is just be a good person. It's also when when you're young, I think there are lots of voices from over and from your family, from your friends or from every place. I think it's just the one and only advice is just to listen to your true self, like what I can do, what I love to do, what I want really, really, really, what I really want to do, just focus on that and then how do you switch off the other voices. I know it's difficult, but out of practice, I think is achievable. Yeah, I mean, that's great advice is to find something that you love, and make it your work. And as you say, work in personal life then, there is no such thing as work, right? Yes, it was worked. Yeah, work takes at least a half of your time. If you don't enjoy what you do, if you're just a work and not enjoying what you do, what is their left of all your life. Again, cliche, but again, this is my personal belief. I can't switch off. That's the upside and downside is I cannot switch off. I'm working 24/7, but I'm not working 24/7. Yeah, you're following, you're living a passion. So did you see yourself doing this when you were 18 yourself? Yes and no. But yes, I did see myself working and not in the office. And no, I thought that would be like a writer or like artist or something. So I wasn't envisioning myself to be a business person at the time, but I do have this strong fantasy that I'm not going to go to office. I'm not going to work as a conventional office 97 work or 96 job. So that was a yes for now. And no, it's the profession I chose along the way. But I have no regret. I really enjoy what I'm doing right now. Yeah, well, you should be very proud of yourself. I mean, it's been a great success. I'd like to ask you about your leadership. What is Dina's leadership style? Getting back to and thinking a little bit about giving some advice to the younger generation as well. How do you become a great leader? I think there's different definitions for different people for great leader. I think it's also personal. It depends on what kind of person you are. So for me, I would say my personal leadership style is I'm pretty hands off. So that comes to my trust with the team. And also, I purposefully train them to not depend on me. Every decision, I do not micromanage. And this is particularly hard because from, as I said, 80% of our employees are Chinese. Chinese are not trained to be creative and to be proactive on doing when it work. They are used to just take orders. Like you tell me what to do, I'll do it. But I purposefully trained them to take action, take lead on what you're doing. Just report to me the progress, the problem, and your proposal. Just tell me all this. I don't need to know all the details. Just tell me all this. And at the beginning, this struggle. As I said, we have a very loyal based employee. Some of them have been helping with me since they want for 10 years. And so what I trained them to just be trust. I mean, again, this is arrogant to say, I can never expect them to do as a great job. I don't really do. But as long as they are delivering and making progress, and I will just trust their process and let them let them do. So my leadership style is hands off and trust and delicate. So these are my style. And also works perfectly for the lifestyle because the more you try to grab everything, the more you cannot hold on everything. And you'll have no time for other space to other things to grow up. Well, this is really fascinating, especially for our Dubai listeners, because in Dubai leaders are managing and leading workforce that are multicultural from all over the world. So I'd really love to know a little bit more about how you trained, especially, as you said, the Chinese nationals. But I think this is going to be common for a lot of people. How you train people who may be brought up to believe to have a certain set of behaviours, but you want to change that. You've trained your staff so that they're empowered, as you say, to work with more freedom. That wasn't necessarily to them. So how did you train them? What's more about the techniques you use? I think it's a gradual process. At the beginning, I mean, this struggle, I struggle too. This comes out from my personality because I do not want, because me, firstly, I do not like to be micromanaged for people to tell me exactly what to do, the way I do be, do see. So what I do is like, look, I do not like that for myself, and I do not want to do it for you. So I want you to have all those autonomy. Just do whatever the way you want to do and tell me what you think. And this is the first. I may get clear. I want you to take lead. This is the first step. And second step, I cannot be completely like, okay, you go wild, you do whatever you want. I don't care. So I give them the structure, like to say, if you want to achieve A, and the solution is A, B, C. So try these ones, go first, and this is just what I'm thinking. If you have a solution, D, F, G, just propose to them. Even for the part of my language, even if it's super stupid, just bring it to me. I will see, and if they're viable, we can try. And then this creates this safe environment for them to bring up some really, I mean, some of them are quite just like, yeah, okay, I know it's not going to work. But I don't put them down to say, oh, this is just not a good advice. So I encourage them to develop more of the independent thought process on the solutions, and then the safe space for them to bring up to me. And then I will give them suggestions like, okay, from ADTDE, ADC works, the don't work, like, this is why, and just like, dig deeper into ADC and then come back to me with so through time, they will have more of the motivation to go dig into the solution or dig into the whatever the work method that they're doing. So the important thing is create a safe space for them to be able to come to you was even like, again, freedom of language, even if the dumbest idea that they can present doesn't matter, as long as you are thinking, like, no idea is a bad idea, just do it, and then we can think about it. And over time, they will know which is a good, which is not good. So they're not going to present the bad ones for me anymore, because they already know myself process. Like if I present this to Dina, she's going to be, okay, this is not going to work. So trust them and empower them, give them in the safe space to do things. And the second and the third thing is, again, my personal thing, I'm not an organized person, so my brain is jumpy here and there I can have like thousands of ideas per day, and then I can, I just dump it to them and they were like, okay, we can do this, we can do that. And then in the same time, especially our key stuff, they help me to regulate my thought process of not going crazy. So in a way, they feel like they have control over me as well, like, oh, yeah, like, great, great Dina, but don't go crazy. Here is the practical way, like your idea is great, but in practice, it's not going to work, just stop, stop there. So in a way, they feel like they're in control, not me trying to control them, but they're regulating me as well. That's how we form this kind of relationship, where it's very safe, I encourage them to criticize me, and I'm not afraid of presenting my shortcomings to them directly, like, look, I'm a jumpy person, I have thousands of ideas, here is what's going on. So they come back to me like, Dina, don't go crazy. So thank you for the advice and I take that. So that's how I think gradually, especially our key, eight key employees, they all know me and they all do that to each other as well, and what they're doing to each other, pass along to other employees as well. So gradually, this just formed a very healthy and it's just like very pleasant work environment, even though we like meet maybe less than less than one time a year. No, look, I mean, I think that they listening to you there that I conclude, or the thing that I hear there is you've got a very authentic leadership style, you are, you know, your personality is who comes out in your leadership. And that, you know, that I know myself, from my experience, that if you can be authentic with your team, and you're honest and transparent, it definitely builds that bond of trust. Exactly. Exactly. That's amazing. I would like to finish off with two questions, which will be always of interest to do. One would be, do you have a favorite podcast that you listen to? Oh, I'm like a fanatical podcast. This is really, this is really, I like, I love the the pitch from Gimlet. Do you know that one? No, I haven't heard the pitch from Gimlet. Gimlet. Gimlet. G-I-M-L-E-T. Gimlet. So, look, he said you love the pitch. Look, this is why it's a great question, because there's so many podcasts out there. Everybody knows the big podcast, but different generations are listening to different podcasts. So, the pitch. Okay. Yeah. So, the pitch, the reason I love the pitch a little bit, actually, this is the company that got me into podcast, because the pitch is great for entrepreneurs, because it's a real entrepreneur is pitching to real VCs, and they document and they record all those pitches, and then the VCs get feedback, and some of them commit investment on the spot. And it was a really great podcast. Yeah, sorry. Great. Okay. And also, do you have a favorite business book that you've read or listened to? Or a favorite business author? Or influencer? I mean, I don't know the space. Any of the major entrepreneurs of the world? Not really. Yeah. I feel like I'm going to the personal growth space for podcasts and books and stuff. And I think one of the person I really like, which to me is also the life and the work role model as well, is Trevor Noah. It's a bit weird, I know. Yeah. But he has this podcast what now? Just released recently after he loved The Daily Show. And he interviews all the business leaders like Bill Gates and all the other entertainers, like even the founder of AI was Sam Altman. Yeah. So he interviewed those people and bring up all those all the life story leadership style and everything. Because again, as for me, I do not only follow one side that follow, I combine work with life, work like balance to me is a priority. So that's why I do not only follow business advice or something, I just combine everything together into the marketing pod. Amazing. Yeah. I think that's the way life is going. I think that's the model we have. We have to have it these days. We're always connected, right? So there's always a little bit of business thoughts going on. But you do have to find the time to somehow blend your personal life as well. Exactly. I've really enjoyed chatting today. Congratulations on the success you've had, and good luck for the future. Thank you very much, John. It was a pleasure. Thank you very much for your
