Welcome everybody to my podcast, Distressing Values, where we explore with Chief Executives how they manage stress in running their business and how values have helped them to drive the business forward and possibly how they help them cope with those stresses and strains. Today we are very interested to meet Rachel Gillie, who is now the proud Chief Executive and she is going to tell us all about it today and how she is running it. So Rachel, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to see you. Looking very vibrant, I have to say, with your amazing jumper and extraordinary wallpaper. Thank you. We have got to discuss the wallpaper first. I have bored people with this wallpaper column. I put this up in January 2020, this little room I am in and little did I know that the following two years I was going to be staring at it quite consistently, day in, day out. But anyway, it makes for a different backdrop. It certainly does. I think Microsoft might nab it for teams. It is fantastic. Anyway, it is so great to have you with us. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey? Well, your journey before clarity global. Yes, absolutely. Yes, I am CEO here of Clarity. I am based in London. We have offices just in London, Cornwall, in L.A., New York, Amsterdam and Sydney. We are a global integrator and digital marketing agency. We have services in insight and analytics, digital performance and experience, strategic communications and public affairs and we also have a creative studio and a content production team. I have been here since January 19. Prior to that, I spent a large part of most of my career in agency life but prior to that, next 15 and I worked in an agency called BITE which was part of that holding company. Always in technology. I fell into that and I have never found my way out of it. Technology through and through. I joined Clarity in 2019 as the MD for our London office. We then took on an acquisition of an agency in Amsterdam. So I started looking after our European function and other partners that we had in the region and then became global chief plant officer. When then Sammy, who was our founder, he stepped down at the back end of last year and I was very honored to be asked if I take on the CEO role which I did in January of this year. So you're five or six months in post? Yes, exactly. You're here, more bray hairs but still here. I'm still able to smile which is a result and it's fantastic. So when you took over the Amsterdam sort of operation, is that a new foray for you in terms of international working or? No, I've done a fair bit of that bite in my prior role. So one just that we had in the Nordics, Germany. It's the first time I'd actually managed an agency in Amsterdam. I absolutely love it. Maybe I can to get over there. Oh, really? Yeah, wonderful team over there, run by Thomas, who joined us about two years ago. So yeah, absolutely love it. Oh, fantastic, fantastic. And now of course you've got literally the entire globe. You're covering the whole time zone. Yes, exactly. Then the time zones, that's an interesting element that you have to factor into the global piece. But I think everybody understands that's part of the job. We navigate the time zones, we do it on rotus if somebody doesn't always have the most appalling slot. Oh, okay. But that's just nature of it, isn't it? If you run a global organisation, you've got to accommodate the time zones. Absolutely. Yeah, yes, you must. Yes, absolutely. You seem to have a meteoric rise through the business over the last five years. And you'd got to late last year when the founder, Sammy, decided to stand down. That must have been a really interesting sort of good junction for the business. How long had he been running it? Oh, since 2013, he'd always been an entrepreneur, Sammy. So he's not necessarily a cons person, he's actually more of a businessman and an entrepreneur, but had created this organisation. And I was very excited when I met him five years ago about that vision and what he wanted to do and how he wanted to grow it. And I joined and we delivered on that over the course of that time. But Sammy, as I say, always been an entrepreneur, lots of other ventures that were going on around the side. So it's to a point where I think you wanted to spend more time on those, which I've totally understood. I think we all did. Was that part of the plan, do you think then that eventually he would move away from this business? I think at the stage that he's at, I think he decided that he's got a very small family, he's got four children, all young children. Exactly, sorry, yes, exactly. Big family, small, small children, makes that in California. And he was extremely busy with that with these other ventures. So I just think it was a lifestyle decision for him at that stage. And then he approached me and I thought about it for a time and then said, yes, I think the role that I played as chief client officer meant that I'd spent an awful lot of time with our teams in each office because my role was to look after all the clients on a global basis. So I knew the teams, I knew the things that were happening in those markets helped to hire in those markets. So I think it was potentially a natural transition. So yeah, I took it and was very flattered to have been asked. Yes, and what do you think you having been a founder in this podcast goes, I think mostly to founders, we've got a very clear idea about the sort of values, the whole way of doing business that should echo what we think. How do you think you had, what did you do with Sammy to get on that track, if you like? I think we needed to be clear what the business wanted to continue looking like. I think the hardest part, if a founder is handing over to somebody else, is to make sure you understand the different management styles, leadership styles that that comes with. So I think the biggest part for me was when Sammy had been in role for so long, how did I pick that up and take that forward. But I had ideas on what that looked like. I come from a communications background anyway, so I thought I would double down on my ability and want to talk consistently and meet with all the teams. I think it was a natural transition. I think he's been quite well and has been received hopefully well by the teams, but yes. And Sammy has completely exited the business, or is he still in some way interested in business now? Right, so you are in sole charge, so to speak. That's right, and I have a fantastic board, and an ex-co-team, which make the job obviously increasingly easy to do. They come from some of our founders from some of the acquisitions that we've made. So they have a huge vested interest in the success of the business. They came forward with their businesses because it gave us that competitive advantage. And it's been quite a journey. We'll probably come on to it, but no amount of challenges that have come our way in the course of the last 12 months on an economic level. So I think pulling together with people who've got experience in growing businesses and understanding how to navigate that is incredibly important. So as we all know, one of the great adages is just surround yourself by great people, which is what I've done. Yeah, I'll totally. Yes, I've passed fantastic to hear. It certainly does make a huge difference. We will definitely get to that hopefully. Just to explore just a little bit further, what values do you think you inherit from Sami's way of running the business and that you'll push on with? Yeah, so I think we have values as an agency anyway. Those are global fearless and positive. And when we look at those, they're actually completely true and ring true of who we are and what we're trying to do as an organisation. I think we think of and very much how Sami saw the business and I think I translate that on. So global was always about a global mindset, not just a set of offices. What does that mean then? Not just a set of offices? Well, it means that we collaborate, we share ideas, we work on joint clients. So actually when people say we've got an office in LA, but we've also got an office in Amsterdam, it doesn't feel like two separate businesses. We're very much a collaboration of individuals. We believe that the best ideas come from diversity and we're stronger together. So very much that was the thinking behind global. Fearless is never settled, but we know that we're always learning and we shouldn't be afraid to fail, albeit only as good as the results that we achieve. Fearlessness piece was let's just go forth and see what we can do and what we can achieve if we don't feel like we're sort of hemmed in with guardrails and how we can do that. So that's been fantastic as a value. And then our final value positive, I mean, we believe that work should make you happy. So it's how do we, you know, people are happy and they enjoy the work that they do. They will perform brilliantly, which means we will attract greater clients and the cycle continues. So we're very generous with our time and our ideas and other people's time. We want people to feel valued and empowered. So I think those three have been very important in the way that I'm consistently looking at how we perform as a business and we show up. Well, I really, I want to explore all of that. I'm not sure we can have enough time, but let's pick on global. Yes. That seems to have been quite a problem for a lot of people in that idea of getting collaboration across teams that don't, obviously, physically don't meet very often. How do you, what do you do to make that happen? Yeah, I, you know, I don't think we've hit it completely on the head. We're sort of always working on it to make it work as well as we can. I think possibly easier, we're not, we're not a thousand person agency, we're 120 people. So I think one of the nice things is that everybody knows each other. So we do these regular coffees where actually we nominate somebody has got to talk to somebody that they haven't worked with before, so they're consistent team people. I think one of the interesting things we've found when we've pitched is that the people that we've pitched to have said, we knew that you knew each other. We knew that this wasn't maybe the first time that you'd been on a call together and you'd rehearsed it five minutes before. Exactly. We felt like you knew each other. There was banter. We could tell that you liked each other, that you obviously worked another accounts together. And I think we've worked very hard to make that a reality. So whether it's coffees, we have initiatives. So one of the big things we do is something called task forces. So we created four task forces at the beginning of the year. The reason for that century that we just we knew people were more than the day job. We wanted them to be able to collaborate globally, but also follow passions. So we have a sustainability task force because we're working to be caught. We have a DE and I workforce and we pledged a million dollars of pro bono work to clients to promote equality. We have a well-being task force, which is all about how do we show up for people no matter where they are in their life in their life stage. And so it's a holistic view to work life balance. And then we had a technology task force. So all of that sort of has created a bit of a supergroup, which is our clarity compass. And it brings people together across all time zones to talk about the things that matter. So each task force has people from every single office. Yes. And so that was another way that we did it. We just made sure that people understood that was incredibly important. So it's a constant process of work. We've got to manage time zones, which isn't always easy on each one. But I think we strive to make sure that people hear from all of the senior team in each market. We have a global town hall meeting that happens regularly. It's just that people see sort of faces. And then the goal is that we work on more and more global clients. People actually get to work with people in different markets, which is the ultimate goal. When you're pitching for work, do you put together a sort of mixed office team that's going to take on that account if you win it? Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what we do. We work out what is the best based on what the client's request has been. Sometimes they want to meet the whole team. Sometimes they want a representation of the team that they're going to get. And then we get everybody together on a call. So once Dario Management is sorted out, actually, that's the best way to do it. And we rehearse absolutely. Of course, you'd expect that. Oh, yeah. But I think it's more natural. And there's, there's, you know, we often get great feedback on the chemistry on the calls. And I think in part, it's because we all do know each other. You really do know each other. Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, well, the thing about fearlessness comes up a lot. It will all words that affect particularly in relation to be cool, where, you know, you're putting forth that you're, you're upholding very high business standards across the sphere of sustainability, etc. And for me, fearless would also be, I mean, apart from being brave in the creativity, would actually be, would have some impact on what sort of clients you might choose. Yes. So what's your thinking about that? What's the company's thinking about that? Well, our vision is to work with visionary companies globally who want to work the world a better place. Yeah. A lot of the clients we work for, and we use the word disruptive, which people say is overused, but they are trying to do something different potentially in a legacy sector. And I think that's always quite exciting. You know, they're coming to us with a huge challenge. Maybe they're completely new startup or scale up, they're trying to enter a new market, they're launching a new product, which is going to completely disrupt the sector they're in. So I think we have to take a fearless approach with them. Many of those are founders themselves, and they come with all the energy they've thrown their entire life into this, into this, and it has to work. So I think we have to match that. So I think what we look for in people when we hire them is an ability to take a fearless approach, know what they're good at, be really good at the skill sets they have and bring that to bear when we're trying to deliver results for the clients. Yeah. So how would you feel or how would the company feel if if a large fossil fuel organization came to you saying, are we really we're going big on solar or some such? Yes, it's tricky. We have an ethics policy, which actually the team pulled together as a group. We got a lot of input from different levels within the organization about what that means, that when we are approached by a client that makes it, you know, there's a conversation that we need to have about whether we do or we don't want to work for them. It very much follows the filter of the policy. There's lots of chats about actually you can only affect change if you're inside these organizations and they generally want to make a change and I understand that. I think we'd have to consider long and hard if that was actually true and it was likely to bear fruit. Can we really impact enough of the organization from within in our role as the global digital marketing communications agency? Yeah, what impact can you have on be it off? Yes, it may well be that we've got a direct line to senior staff, which is which we have a lot of that, you know, we would see sweet and we can. But I think on the whole, we would want to veer away from that. That's something that our teams would want us to be doing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So with that in mind, because status must be quite close now, I imagine from what you said, where does where do you see the company in five years? Against a backdrop of some extraordinary economic challenges, which I think you can't talk about the future without taking into account. If you list inflation and interest rates and war and civil unrest and climate and, you know, virtual worlds and AI, I mean the list is isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's endless, isn't it? And is that impacting all offices the same across the globe? Yes, I think it is. I think within those trends definitely some markets pick up quicker than others, some behind others. I think the reality is we've got to find a way through these. I think agencies always talk about cycles, you know, you have good cycles and you come out of it and you have bad ones. It feels at the moment like we've got this maelstrom of them all hitting us in very short order, which we're trying to navigate. So I think the hardest part for leaders is is dealing with the short term whilst also always wanting to look at the long term. That's probably the biggest challenge that we have. Yeah, your feet are on shifting sands, but you've still got to try and work out how you go forward. Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, we still have lots of goals that we want to achieve. I think we've grown both organically, but through acquisition. We certainly wouldn't rule out future acquisitions if they were additive to the organisation. So they have to add a service or a specialism or a geography that we knew was important to our clients and the future clients we'd want to work with, because it's such a big deal bringing in an acquisition. As I say, we've done four and the integration of those acquisitions. You're bringing in different people with different skill sets, different expertise, different wants, different ambitions. And so you can't enter into that in a lack of stage a cool way. It takes time, it takes an awful lot of effort, but I do think there would be certain markets where we might want to double down on that. So I think definitely that acquisitions through scale and then AI. I mean, AI is going to change the way we work, the services we offer, the people we hire, I think it's going to have a fundamental impact and we're all playing around and seeing how it works and where it can start to have a effect to change for us. We have a fantastic CTO in the agency and Will has got lots of thoughts about how we can roll this out through the business, which we've already started working with. So I don't exactly know what it's going to look like. No, who does? No, but I'm excited by it. We want technology to liberate us, not to restrict us. So I think we've got to go on that journey and see where it takes us. Yes, it's a scary journey because it's constantly changing, isn't it? It's changing very fast and nobody kind of knows where it is going to be tomorrow, let alone five years. Yes. Going back to that acquisition, I can see that, that makes a lot of sense. But one of the challenges that you hear about regularly in terms of acquisitions at early scale is this is the conflation of values again. You bring in another organization that may have completely different mindset. I mean, how do you guardians, the frictions that it might create? It's what everybody will tell you, it's communication more consistently over and over and over. We, our values are in everything that we do. Our values are in everybody's KPIs and their objectives. We talk about our values. We have a powerhouse winner once a quarter that have to align with our values. It's through the DNA of the organization. So we keep repeating them. You've got to live them as well. And I think where we ever feel that there's some conflict when people come over or they're not being reflected in the way that we want, we pick it up immediately and we talk about it. Again, we're 120 people. We can do that. We can have those conversations very openly. I constantly talk about how they're important to us as a business. I do regular communication to the agency. We talk about these on our town hall meetings. It doesn't mean to say that those aren't, there aren't still conflicts. People coming over, it takes a good year, I think, for an acquisition to fully embed. People on that journey decide whether they want to stick around or they don't. As long as I think us as the acquirer feel very clear about what our values are and what our expectations are, we want people to want to embrace them. So if they're not what we aren't, they and where are the problems and how can we talk through them and where is it not working for them? Because we don't want to lose people, obviously. Well, that's the point, isn't it, of acquiring the organization, isn't it? But do you look at their values? Is that part of the assessment as to whether this is a company you would take on? Yeah, I mean, all part of that due diligence is not all financial. A lot of it has to be, how is it going to work culturally? Are we aligned? Do we think the same? What does a high performance culture mean? We know what it means at clarity, but what does it mean for the agency coming in? Do they want to be fearless? Or actually, are they more considered? What's the risk appetite? I think there's so many elements of that that get discussed, which is why acquisition has taken awful a long time to get over the line. It's not just the numbers, it's making sure that people have met. Are we going to see challenges when people come over? What are we going to have to look out for and make sure it doesn't happen or does happen in those first two, three months, which are so important when people come on board? Yes, I imagine that if you expand in the other parts of the world, you will start to see cultural differences as to what those words mean. In that context, like Indian or Vietnamese or whatever, very different perceptions, I imagine, of those words and what that value might actually entail on the ground for them. Yeah, quite a bit of navigation, a lot of communication there. Yes, lots of it. Of course, that sort of growth is going to have an impact on the current team. How have you brought the team with you to date with the acquisitions and the changes that have come with that? I think, again, it comes back to a lot of transparent, open and honest communication. We talk all the time, we have a business plan as everyone would expect. We update everybody about how we're delivering against it. What are the absolute essentials? What are our strategic imperatives, quarter-on-quarter? How are we matching those? Are we meeting them? But also admitting where we've got it wrong. We have a suggestion box, so people will raise questions if they want to know why something was or wasn't brought up when we immediately... Does that get used? Yeah, yes. Yes, it does. And it's very positive. I run group sessions with a mixture of individuals every quarter, so I try and get around as many people. There's about six or seven people in each of those meetings to say what's working, what isn't working, what is... You've got some sort of random, randomized person-selecting running. Is that how you throw people together for these coffees? All levels, different levels, and it's a wonderful way to get people to talk to each other, which is great. It's a great way seeing whether our trends are developing or people to share their practice. So it's not just me telling them what I think it should be like. We share and we come up with new ideas, but it's also an opportunity for them to say we didn't like that or we didn't get that right, and I say, okay, next time we can do better. We'll communicate more, we'll find a different way to address it, or if we've rolled out a new process or a new software platform, we could have done a better way of doing that to have made it easier for you. So we're constantly learning and getting that feedback, and we do an employee engagement survey as well. So we get all this feedback from the teams. I think one of the best ways they understand that we're going to come to them, and we need that feedback. Has that changed over? Because you must do that quite regularly, I guess. Has that of you seen changes in the, is it evolved, the response? Yes, I mean, we have a workforce that aren't going to raise something and then wait around for us to decide if we're going to do anything about it. They're going to come to us and say we asked. Where is it? What are we doing? So I think it's, I think, part of my job as well is just to make sure that there's always momentum. And things are raised, we're addressing it, that we don't seem to be slow, and if we can't address it, why can't we? There are very many reasons in business why things can't happen at the speed with which everybody else would like them to happen, and we're not always able to share all of those. But I think as long as they understand that it is still front of mind, and the moment that we can make those adjustments, we will. Yes, so that brings me quite neatly onto the challenge that all senior people have. At some point, you know, have to have those difficult conversations with various members of staff, sometimes with clients. But how do you handle them? I think I've always believed in talking to people to find out where the problems are to see if I can fix it. I like fixing things and finding solutions. Not everybody wants a solution, but I like finding things. Sometimes you are just there to listen, to take it on board, to absorb the challenges, but sometimes you can make changes. So I think, for me, that that's the job. If I can find a resolution to something that shouldn't have happened because either our processes were too cumbersome, or there was some bureaucracy that wasn't needed, or politics, which I have no time for in the workforce, have seeped in, how can we address them quickly? And if we can't address them, then there'll be an outcome. But if we can, we can potentially fix something that just got blocked. And that's the first approach. We have a fantastic people and culture team, and they're constantly available, always having conversations with individuals. So I think it's about being direct. And I only have conversations if I can be open and honest with them and call it out. Let's find a solution. Yes, yes. And on balance, do you find that you can find a solution? Is there one there to be got, or do you find that actually, yeah, sorry, it can't be done, and something more decisive is going to have to happen? Both. I think on the whole, I'd like to say we find a solution. But sometimes there's, we're not necessarily the right agency for everybody. There's a culture, and there's a feel, and if that doesn't work, then people have to be completely self. So I always say you have to be selfish with your inquiries. What works for you? Where are you going to be happy? Where are you going to do your best work? And if it's here and you want it to work, let's find a way through it. Give us a chance to fix it. We want them also. We're very supportive of them finding that next role, and we've helped people find their next role for that. Very interesting. Interesting. I think if we've taken the time to interview them and hire them, and train them, and it just doesn't work, then I feel like there's a certain obligation on us to try and help them find the next one. So I think there's an element of that as well. That's very interesting. Cranking. Yeah, very good. We mentioned right at the top, the clues in the name, global, clarity global. That's a lot of time to cover. You did say you were fairly democratic the way you were located, but I suspect that you still work very long hours. I can work. I don't think I work. I'm not one of these people that does a 17-hour day and sleeps for four hours, and then does it. Absolutely. Yes, I wouldn't be able to make that work. I think I know that there are certain days of every month where there's going to be a long day, when I want to start the day with a 7.30 call, and you may well be on a call at nine o'clock in the evening. Now, those I don't think are every day and they're certainly not every week, but you just know they're coming up. So I think it's a question of how do you manage your diaries in those days? I think I probably spend about 20 minutes a day on diary management. What does the day look like? What does the week look like? How do we make stuff out? I think I've got to be quite religious about how and disciplined about how I keep the time and when I do it. When do I do exercise? When have I got time to talk to my children? What's important? I think you've got to be very disciplined in this job. It's certainly an agency when there are so many forces calling on you, which is the nature of the job. Yeah, absolutely. Don't take it on, but you've just got to manage it. Yes, and part of that management must involve delegation other people to take those calls. Yes, absolutely. And as I say, I have this fantastic Exco team, a wonderful senior team. In fact, I'm going to say this, but we have a fantastic, eclectic and exceptionally talented group of people. They're very ambitious. I think our junior and middle management are some of the best in the industry. You expect your senior team to be good, but actually I think we're very good because our junior as a middle manager are so good. They work incredibly hard. They are very disciplined, but they're ambitious and they're curious and they want to do more and they're constantly looking for the next step. So I think there's so many people who are willing to take on more, obviously within reason. Not a problem. I was going to say this doesn't happen by accident. What are you doing in terms of encouraging people to step up and how do you give them those opportunities? We run an academy, which is a whole set of training courses, which take place throughout the year, which is won by our PNC team, both internal and external trainers covering a multitude of new skills, upskidding what they already have. Management training is a big, big play for us. I've worked in organisations in the past where management training hasn't been given enough time, and if you have a good manager, then actually your career thrives. You're going to progress. So if the manager is good, you are going to learn. You're going to find these opportunities. They're going to enable you to be in places which might feel a little bit uncomfortable, but that's how you learn. I think we try and provide an environment which is it's okay to fail to a point. We don't want to lose any clients over it. But fail if you're going to learn and we will support you on that journey. So that's very much the approach. Yeah, I love the manager training. I think there's a lot written about how poor management has been in written generally, and obviously that's quite a common complaint management isn't very good. So what does that actually entail? Well, there's a whole load of courses that we have. We video everything so it's online and kept on as the teams can go back and look at any of the training that they might have missed, or they need a refresher. There's regular, we're very good about creating OKRs at the beginning of the year, and everybody gets reviewed every month on those, and then there's a review every six months. You just expand OKRs. So yeah, so that's all around what's the objective? What does success look like for a set of objectives that you've been set at your peer level by your manager? What are our expectations of you? Where do we need to use this? So you use this objective and key results technique, right? Okay, right. That's interesting that that's only just come through. That's quite so is it how central is it to the to the business, the OKR model? It's everything. I mean, it's how it's how people progress. It's how they get promoted. It's everything. So I think as long as people understand the journey they are on and what they've got to do to get there, and that comes down to the quality and you're not everybody can write a good set of OKRs. So it's quite hard, actually, isn't it? So the PNC team again, they spend a lot of time with the managers going through it. They're always there to give examples, to show what good looks like. We progress people. I think there's an element of the generation coming up that they want to get promotions every year. That's not a thing. But by the same token, we want them to want more. I want them to be hungry. Yeah, and it's getting that balance right. You want more, but not all of that, yeah. Yeah, totally. How exciting. Very interesting. So reflecting back on the early part of our conversation where you've had this sort of very rapid acceleration and you've stepped into the shoes of the previous owner, if you like, or the owner. What would you advise? What would your tips be for somebody in a similar situation coming into a business that is currently being run by a very busy entrepreneur? What would your tips be in terms of how far you could take this and how would you do it? Yes, I mean, it's a huge question. And as I say, five months in the role and working that out, I think. Yes. Because I was involved in a lot of the conversations about the clients and the team base, I felt like I was already knew what good could look like, what good did look like, and what good potentially could look like. So I came in knowing that element of it. And there's obviously a whole heap of new skills that I've had to learn in the CEO role that I wouldn't have had to do before. So I think it's what are you good at personally and what are you not good at? Where do you need and you need to know those, not think you know them, you have to know what you're good at and where you're not good at. Yes. Have to find people to support you in those roles. And that can be quite a brutal exercise. You know, I've done my role for as long as I haven't, I think I'm good at that. But actually, the CEO requires a whole lot of new skills. So who are the people around you to fill the gaps with and know what you're good at and what you're not so that they support you, I think is crucial. And then you've got to find your style. You've got to decide are you enhancing the style that was there before? Are you taking elements of it and bringing it into the way that you do things? You know, what's important to you? Because very, very quickly you get judged for you being the leader, regardless of how quickly you took on that role or how long you've been in it. Yeah, it's all yours. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, whatever's good is great. But if it doesn't go well, you know, it's still, you know, it's on me. So I've got to be really sure very quickly. I think that takes time as well as a leader. You have to find your own way. Yeah. What's your stick? Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, six months in, I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying it because the team is as good as they are. I'm enjoying it because I think we're very lucky to have a fantastic client portfolio. It is challenging. I think agency life is always relentless. It has never been harder than it currently is. I think all leaders are feeling that. It is a tough environment out there. Yes, yes. I don't know what it's going to look like, you know, even by the end of this year, we all have hopes and desires what it looks like in particular sectors. But in ours, particularly technology, it's very difficult. But yeah, you've got to be, you've got to know what your style is. And you've got to be sure that you can live by it in the good times and the bad times. Ah, I think that's a fantastic note to end all. I think that's absolutely right. Whatever the style is, you've got to live with it in good and bad times. Brilliant. Well, Rachel, that's been so interesting. Thank you very much for coming on, dressing values. I hope you've enjoyed it. And I think our viewers will get an enormous amount out of this. So thank you very much indeed. Brilliant. Thank you, Colin.
