Well, hello everybody and we're in for a very interesting stressing values podcast this today. I have with me David Glenny from the Extraordinarily named Voodoo Park who's going to take us through his values how he drives the business How what makes him tick and I think you'll find some very original thinking in this interview. So David welcome to stressing values Thank you very much. Please to be here. It's great to see you and I'm really looking forward to comparing notes on on how you run your business and what you've done over the last few years But just to set the scene for the viewers Can you just tell me about yourself your path to this business and what Voodoo Park does? Yeah so Voodoo Park where 12 years old and We make technology for other businesses Specifically in the financial services space so we are building the the platforms that Manage people's pensions or manage people's wealth or insurance products and we do that for typically Companies that are much bigger than us so yeah multinationals their sort of PLC's We're very small. We're still sub a hundred people We founded the business of 12 years ago and We either we the build things specific to people give us a project and say we need a thing that does a thing or we provide Teams of people that work alongside their teams of people if they suddenly need to go much faster. Whatever and Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we sort of do both so kind of quite flexible and we've got people all over the world with people in 22 countries Wow, so in some countries you only got like one person There's only a hundred of us and we're in 22 countries. So yeah, it's not like we have Yeah, so I said and we're a hundred percent remote and we were since since day one not since the pandemic but since Since 2020 so you're very entirely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so When lockdown happened it was just like you know another Tuesday For us, you know, cuz we'd already Lived and worked like that for for over a decade by the time we got to it And I got into doing this so I'm the founder and CEO and I I got into this I guess it probably the same way as 90 something percent of people that do what I do is I just sort of Failed upwards till I got to a point where We're the only person that could fire me was me. I think really um so I was I was I didn't I think it's modest. He's just it's just being realistic. I was didn't do very work school and then I left school I went to drama school because I thought that wouldn't be too much trouble and it was very hard and So I got booted out and then I was an actor for a while About half a decade, which was just basically being Unemployed and drunk and then I was in a band which is just being unemployed and high and Then I started working with I didn't got in social care So I worked with the NHS and for the National Statistics Society Oh, and then massive contrast it really is it's just a no plan. Let's literally know you just drifting That's right. Right. Um, and then I'm doing that and I'm thinking oh gosh. I'm nearly I'm 30 now um and I you know I can't do this forever because it pays absolutely shocking and the hours are huge and yeah, you know, I'm getting I'm getting hidden bitten Um, so this you know, I need something else. I started with the open university and I did a Because I didn't I only had eight levels. So I started with the open university and I did a a year with them I got a diploma and then because My face fits. I sort of blagged a job as a as a developer and um, which I found is a lot easier than people kind of make it out to be. It's not actually that that difficult I mean, I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't a phenomenal developer, but it's relatively straightforward work Is it a sort of the mindset that goes behind it then is it you're just a logical brain, do you think? Yeah, I think kind of I think all It's a bit like musical. It's a bit like playing a musical instrument Okay, it's sort of like that. It's it's it's it's it's relatively straightforward. But the thing with Technologies, it's just made by other people. So the answers are known It's not like science or art where there isn't an answer. You have to go on. Yeah. Yeah, it's already been invented It comes with instructions You just have to be willing to read the instructions so I sort of I started off sort of on the sort of a technical side and then sort of Ultimately like a few years a few years later. I was like by this point. I'm like 40 early 40s I think it must be White enough and male enough and posh enough. I'm allowed to just set up a company and people will give you business Um, so like I said, I think I failed upwards into this, but I think that's a very very common story For people that swore to meet themselves businesses I think that the super fun thing and I think if there's like if there is kind of like an overarching idea in In kind of what I'm trying in one of things that I'm trying to do it is to start dismantling all of that and We will need to do it from the inside as well as from the outside Right. Yeah, so we're going to get we're going to get on to that. I think as we as we go through I think stuff that you're doing is very original um So you've got this You've got up to nearly a hundred people in 22 countries. Yes. Next is um ai so We we live in a we we're at a kind of a period which is very similar to where we were in the 90s So the late 90s the internet turned up. Yes, and uh, we had a big change of government Yes, and here in the UK we said about three weeks before we saw away from a general election We have there's a whole new technology player the Impact of which we're not completely sure of yet And we're about to go through political change and a lot of big global factors going on just as they were in sort of the 90s So there's a there's a a huge change um That will hit Our economy and the businesses that work in it. Yes. So although I can't accurately predict where any of that will go We do have a strategy for um How we will get on to that wave and be dragged forward by it rather than Crushed by it, which I think I don't even think about a lot of people and we'll have to a lot of people in our space so at at the moment we in terms of building stuff the engineering of which there is still Many years work to be done, but in terms of the engineering our sort of competitors are Accenture and cap jam and I right there that okay that were that they're the people that we that we meet in the green room, right? so Now obviously they see AI as a really big ticket uh Uh for them kind of like in in developing. Yes But they have they're in a position where they can just use their brand for credibility, right? Yeah So if you're a company and you go Oh, we really need to use AI to increase our efficiency or to do something or to solve a problem How are we gonna all this get Accenture, right? They've I've done course. Yeah, that's completely fact We can't we can't do that. We can't we can't we don't have that brand recognition. We don't we don't have that brand recognition So what we're doing is we're investing heavily in AI within our own business So we have our we have our own AI platform called Amy Uh, which is a multi AI network and we are over the course of this year Amy is going to take over the uh, the only handles recruitment, but we'll handle finance and HR and administration and all of that as a sort of a a a single entity AI and then our business then becomes our proof for it So We I can't show you our massive brand and you go. Oh your cap gem and I I bet you can do AI really well But I can say I want you to come and meet the AI that runs our companies Okay, so if that becomes like a real proof that becomes a real proof for it. That's not a proof of content Yeah, exactly So that strategy works even if it doesn't work because if all we do is create massive efficiencies and Better outcomes in our own business by using this knowledge That's a win. I'll take that But if it also means that we can talk to other companies and show them what we're you know This is what we're going to do using your sort of ideas. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that's That's the next that's the next five years Wow and Culturally I mean internally to the business then what are you going to have to overcome? What what challenges you see in making that happen? I think like The first the first problem is this this is a strategy involves riding two horses and most Most of the times that I've got into trouble is because I've tried to ride two horses I was going to say it's very common. You're trying to do things at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's really difficult especially if you if you think in terms of Like over time you would imagine that our revenue from core business engineering And our revenue from AI will do that Uh-huh You're hoping or or even better than that. Yeah, let's assume that there's a big one comes down and the other goes up Yeah, there's something like that. I so if you if you imagine trying to Ride that and put the right amount of focus Yes on each of those two things as that changes. It's either not getting ahead of yourself or getting behind yourself Not allowing the thing that pays the bills and feeds everybody To with it because you got overexcited by a shiny thing. Yes. No, so you can see that there are sort of risks in that and Culturally It's the challenges Making sure that all of the decisions that are made about the business are kind of cognizant of that balance. Yes. Yeah, so You know, so it's not everything doesn't come up to the top. So it's it's quite flat and wide. So how do how do we Talk about this in a way that people can intuitively have the right moment by moment priorities I was going to say because you can't second guess so many people in 22 different countries No, no, no, no, no, no. No, should you nor should you attempt to? Um, and remember because they're in different different countries the velocity of this and the reality of this is different Yes, yeah, absolutely. It's it's not one thing It's it's a complexity of things. So it's it's trying to I think we have a good institutional Mind and institutional personality for our core business We need to develop an institutional mind and personality for change and transition So what does a client going to feel and see when they're talking to you about that? Is that what you mean? Yeah, yeah, yes And how do how do we? How do we collectively so our instincts? Are quite similar so when something happens in any part of the business pretty much the business behaves in a common way Yeah, you know, so our instincts have become Reasonably similar and that's good. That says that there's a continuity of experience There's a there's a that's you know for both internal people and and for customers as well How do we create that kind of that instinctive? Process but that is able to manage something like Change and transition, which is a way more complicated thing than what we were doing before. So that's kind of I think that's the biggest internal. Yeah, I can just about get that. I think um Because in a typically the people I've seen in Your sector would I'm imagining they're getting quite excited about the new Yeah, so is that one of the dangers that they get Carried. Yeah. Yeah massively. The technology itself will be absolutely life-changing for all of us Yeah, but it's but not on Tuesday No, so that there is going to be a process and not everything will change at the same speed There's whole whole chunks of the sector that we work in That will be very slow to go anywhere near this technology full loads loads of really good. Yeah, absolutely Quite conservative solid institutions that need to be absolutely 100 accurate and safe Yeah, hey and transparent and all of those all of those kind of air problems. Yeah So in terms of the way you run the business and the values that you adhere to How does that how do how do they stand up to the this? Constant change. I mean AI is just another one, isn't it? Yeah, if we didn't ask that and we just talked more about belief Okay, belief is much more powerful because you can if you are unhappy with your own behavior You can change your beliefs in order to change your behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, you can follow that So if you don't sort of thinking well, what would you have a sort of beliefs? Well, I think I probably got two but the first one is When you are evaluating you're evaluating yourself or indeed others If you subtract what privilege as a forward did you? Look at look at look at what you genuinely achieved. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, so you take that away It said it was it was easy for me to set up a business and people felt very comfortable giving me work Because I looked and sounded exactly like they did. Yes, I was the right age. I was in my 40s I'd already lost my hair And now I already had a wife and photographs of the children I had all the things that made people feel feel familiar comfortable. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm white I'm male. I'm straight. I'm able bodied. I'm cis gendered. There's nothing there's no privileges and having privileges and like Being given something it's just that everybody else had to take one step back, right? So so I have nothing kind of a going against me. So it's sort of very easy. So 15 Not me. So if you then but you kind of go, well, I recognize that that isn't a good way of doing things. So let's start trying to Subtract that was transactionally from from from from Yeah, yeah, almost running it like a sort of legend So that's like definitely like one idea is is and one belief is kind of like privilege often overwhelms capability Right in terms of the person that's sitting in front of you or you sitting in front of them You have to be really honest with, you know, with your assessment of themselves I do agree. Yeah, right and the other one this and there's a brilliant example So please there's a brilliant example of this of kind of belief too Um, and it was um, what's the name Roger Federer doing a commencement speech at some university And it turned up on my it turned up on like some social media platform and um, he was saying so he played something like 1,500 and bloody blood competitive tournament matches in his curriculum, right? He won 80 percent of those Wow He won 54 percent of points he played You then that's him right that's him and he is like literally one of the absolute look at the yeah, he's one of the great, isn't he? Yeah, 54 percent is his actual success rate underneath all of that You are wrong More times than you're right Such that to have a default belief that you are wrong is rational So if you're in any situation and you're trying to make a set of decisions decisions, which are going to affect other people's lives If you have as a default position Something in your mind telling you statistically speaking you're probably wrong What set of actions would you take as a result of doing that? You would find people that believed with that voice that believed in that voice, right? You would find people that also thought you were wrong To get them to try and diversify why you were wrong You'd look for evidence that proved you were wrong not evidence that proved you were right Yeah, if at the end of that process you go, do you know what? I think this is one of these million to one shots where I actually called it Then you go. Yep. We know we're doing the right thing So a belief in your own fallibility Gives you better outcomes So this is the absolute opposite of everything that people say when you become a CEO, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah All that stuff about like you know get your brand together and get your hero story Believe in yourself this kind of like wind blowing in your face cape sort of loan sort of I think all of what you've said it makes a lot of sense, but nevertheless Um, you are in the position you're in and you've got responsibility for the best part of a hundred people Yeah, and indeed for your family. Yeah, so and you You clearly have quite a profound philosophy How does that apply? to how you run the business um How do you manifest what you've just said quite clearly quite cogently? How does that manifest in what you do in the business? Okay, so the The first thing is anything like that any sort of like belief system or structure thought is pretty meaningless unless you can transfer it into Unstoppable action. So unstoppable action is action outside of yourself Right. Yes. So if you stopped Would you carry on? Yeah, exactly and it's not kind of down to what your mood is today So I always I always try and hear both sides of the argument. No, no, no So in terms of manifesting you within within the business Yeah So we created a The first and to my knowledge only Union for and software engineers in the world. The voodoo park union is a trade union It has right convener who is formerly convener of of Unison, which was my union when I worked in care um and Everybody that works for us regardless what country they're in regardless of when they're contractor or Or or a direct employee whatever the model is they are a member of The union and we the company paid the the the jews to support support the union work The union and the company are both subject to a council Okay, should we end up in a dispute? Where the where the company is not in agreement with the union The final decision rests with a third party Right. Right. And who's on the council then? So the the I nominate one person The union nominates one person And those two people have to find a third have to agree a third person It's like need to be agreed third person. Yeah, need to be third person so that he can't be uh, you can't end up with the without you can't so bend up um With a split Wow, so that means so what the union provides as well as just the day-to-day Niceification of working, right? So you don't go to HR to complain about every little thing that your manager did because HR works for me does not work for you Or would bear that in mind if you ever work anywhere Um, the you you can talk to the union and the union have the ability to go and seek redress Get get better outcomes for you without revealing your identity Yeah, right So all of a sudden none of that kind of payback all kind of like, well I didn't get my performance bonus because you complained about the way I spoke to you or something none of that So you have all of that kind of niceification because a nice a place to um to work it becomes a fairer place to work So we have the same terms you can teach this a thing. You know, I remember when we first sat out There was a really sort of big important HR person can see us and gave us a free consultation And like was basically just in tears really as you go you you you you You cannot give people the same rights in different countries, right? Oh, you literally you mustn't do that the whole reason why you employ people over here is because you don't have to give them the same Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of okay. Well, I suppose for many companies. That is the whole reason. Oh, yeah Yeah, I mean, I don't want to name names, but you know, excellent. You know, plenty of examples. I have done Um, so so everyone's if everyone is then therefore treated The same way this said so if you go back to the belief idea, so think about the role of privilege So the privilege I have from where I was born and the kind of education that I was afforded because we're my parents born and all those sort of good things Yes, well, that's a debt On the ledger. I'm going to need to do something about that The the employment rules that applied to all of your staff no matter what country are the highest Level so yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like if you work with google in paris that kind of that kind of right that everyone Everyone's on the same terms. Yes. Yeah, exactly everyone's in the same terms We have a pay grading structure, which is the same as the NHS have So you know what your grade is you were given a grade and an increment That's what you are and if you move from one country to another which you may believe because you can do that right Um, then you just move on to the pay scale of that country Um at the level that you are and that's related to the average wage in that country's or authority And that is reevaluated every quarter So the 20s whatever it is currently pay scales for each of the territories that we're in Those are reevaluated every quarter and they move up by um inflation or You may mind that some of these places have very fast moving economies to use So annual annual is just too long Fazing yeah, yeah, yeah people could get into real trouble if you didn't do something More frequently than that so we look at it on a quarterly basis and make adjustments in the different territories So i'm imagining lots of bureaucracy here and uh Or lots of aiics or lots of ai and i wondered if that was your answer. You always got the ai doing this Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This is this is this is exactly what ai is for because ai is clerks, right? Well, in terms of its capability at the moment, it's like a good second-jobber Do you know what i mean? The sort of person that does expenses in a large Yeah, that's kind of good second-jobber, you know, you'd be gutted if they left, but it's a relatively straightforward repeatable task This sort of philosophy had on the staff team Um, we are because of that because of the charity So 10 of everything we might go to the voodoo park trust the voodoo park trust supports projects for women and girls So that's like again of the privilege Legends. Yes. Yes in the territories where our people come from so there is We we hire well And people stay and that's the impact That that that is like this is we don't have Turn of staff in the way that other people have and we can get Extremely capable. I mean, you know, I joked earlier about being developing a very easy job It is if you don't do the bits that we do right, you know, if you do the bits I was doing that's pretty straightforward. You can learn that in the weekend, but the sort of stuff and the the the complexity regulation around the kind of work that we do you need you need proper Super smart people right and we can attract proper super smart people in a way that um our competitors really struggle really struggle to do and you keep them Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think like I think it was like Oh, I haven't seen stats for so far this year, but not my knowledge, but certainly last year zero resignations so Sometimes though, even with this very solid and stable workforce you must have times where Things aren't going quite so well staff aren't doing quite what you hope they would be doing how do you manage those sorts of um Challenging conversations that almost every employer has to have from time to time. Yeah, so this so now This is what the union Is for so okay Think about process think about putting in place a process So we we if there were concerns about someone we have a very clear set of processes that happen We also notify the union that we're looking at this person's looking to go on a process or Someone's going to be having a world but I'm about something the union contacts them. Do you want support? Do you want this in the meeting? I can talk you through the process and what's going what's going to what's going to happen if if you if you remove the surprise and gotcha Yes from from these kind of interactions and if you If you're not trying to prove a point or win a point These will go much easier. It's not theatrical Mm. It's just it's just a it's just a thing that we are going to do in the same way that if you you know if uh, I don't know If a doctor has to give you news or something. It's not theatrical. It's a transaction. It's it's a professional These are facts. Yeah, there's a profession exactly. There's a professional context to doing this that makes it much easier Prior to that. This is hell So when in small small businesses where you can put the whole company in a car And they are glued together with relationships that are Very personal as well as professional. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Then that can be that is extraordinary difficult. That is very very hard and that's something that I I struggled with um Because I'm very you know you if you can have quite If you're a bit empathetic And you don't like to make people unhappy. Yeah, yeah Which I'm really picking up from you. Yeah, that is you that I strive that I struggle with hence having Is the process it the process is neutral, right? Yeah, if you do these things, it's fine If you don't do these things then you'll leave and yes, and everybody can if they're transparent and people know what those things are. Yeah, yeah You've gone Um, we haven't got time to really cover it, but I know you've gone through several transitions in that 12 years and some of them Some of them have been very stressful. So how do you? manage stress Um Like sort of like sort of dumb tick tock top tip type sort of thing. So for me, I'll be able to play a musical instrument Right. Yes, it's a strangely specific answer. No, so it's something like that. It takes exactly the right amount of concentration to use Right Um, so if if I'm having a route in between meetings like I will Oh really? Yeah, in between between between meetings because it it consumes just enough to mean that you don't you you're not going to ruminate Yes, but it's not hard to get into like Some other thing like like reading might be really, you know, you kind of start reading. You can't concentrate. Yes You can't concentrate because you're wound up. I think that is really really practical Yeah, and the other thing is and it's probably like in a belief thing as well as kind of believing believing in your own Felibility trusting your own incapable thing. The other one is you are probably lazy because I think most humans are And laziness is a really really useful Yes, well, it's powered the industrial revolution, isn't it? Exactly exactly that exactly that Exactly that we have we do it quicker without us getting Exactly. So if if so, when you when you're looking at something like you're dealing with stress You're dealing with pressure and lazy person is not looking to sort of wrestle all of that They're looking to get out from underneath all of them So it's like, okay, so we're going to use technology to deal with that problem I'm going to delegate that over here and we're just not going to do that I've arrived at a good place. Yes, you also made three really sound Decisions, but you didn't pretend you were making them for reasons other than wow, this is way too hard I don't want it to be this What would you recommend to your 40 year old self So tips for starting a business top tips for starting a business Think I think it's the big one And Yeah, okay, think be kind Never be cowardly the last one comes from doctor Never never never be cowardly is a doctor who one but it's like think be kind Never be cowardly. I think those those three are kind of portable Like they work in a variety of situations the most port most important of those is think If you are put in a position in your life where you can make decisions that affect another person Right or you have another person that has to do things that you told them to do or something like that You have a higher than average degree of agency Yes, more than more than most humans experience So with that surely comes some obligation to do something with it Yes, and the think bit Is not just about how do we make widgets or or how do we sell milk But the think bit is the wider implications So think is what we know and never be cowardly That's a brilliant way to sell up. Thank you, David. That's a Inspirational ending. It's a real interview. Thank you. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Take it
