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Greenlight.com/drinkinbros. (upbeat music) - Welcome to Drinking Bros, presented by ghostbed.com. Sit back, relax it, grab a fucking drink. - Yeah, welcome to Drinking Bros, kids. Got a wild Tuesday show for you here today. It's like, Anthony, we got journalist Frank Parlato on the show, Frank, how are ya? - Very well, and thank you very much for having me here. - Absolutely, you've done some wild stories over the years here. You're working on the Jerry Sandusky one as we speak? - That's correct. - Now, this just popped up a couple weeks ago here that potentially there was evidence that Jerry Sandusky might be innocent. - That's correct, I think there's substantial evidence of that. - Okay, so a lot of people out there, myself included, have said Sandusky is guilty, I've moved on from this. Why now? What recently popped up that was a red flag for you that you were looking into that said, "Alright, maybe there's another side of this story." - Well, I had like everyone else in America, pretty much not thought very much about Jerry Sandusky for a dozen years since he was convicted. When one of my reports that was published, a passing mention was made of Sandusky, and I got an email from Dr. Frederick Cruz, the former head of the English Department at Berkeley, and he said, "Everything you know and what the public knows about Jerry Sandusky is actually the opposite of the truth." And he invited me to investigate. - Yeah, so with me, I heard the same thing, and obviously I read the article, and I kind of dismissed it. Now, Anthony, you were the one who broke down the alleged facts in the article here about a potential erectile dysfunction thing that he had in his past. - That's one part of it. So if you start from the 30,000-foot view and work your way down to the granular level, you're gonna find extreme inconsistency and testimony, not just from the alleged victims, but also from Macquarie, who gave the initial statement to police, right? The stories change over time, and then to your point about the hypogonatism or emptence or whatever it is, whatever he was dealing with, that is a medical fact that unsubstantiates some of the claims made by the victims. And then there's, of course, I think victim one, Aaron Fisher made a claim that one of the instances he was molested happened outside of the window when he had contact with Sandusky. Now, I don't know if Sandusky had the worst defense team of all time, or what the fuck happened, but I mean, this is why we have, Mr. Parlotte on the show today to discuss it, 'cause I don't know what happened. We don't know what happened, you don't know what happened. - Sure, we know from the media. - Yeah, so, and we know from recent history that trusting the media to put the whole story together and to give us the actual information, and then you include government in that in some way, and then any other actors, I think it's very naive to just accept people's thoughts and face value without actually looking at evidence. - Sure, but in these day and the day and age we live in right now, a lot of these cases are coming back up. Scott Peterson, for example, and people are starting to look at these again and saying, all right, is there another possibility out there other than the one that the media pushed initially, and then obviously the trial? Frank, I'll just walk you through some dates here for Mr. Sandusky, 1969 Penn State, higher Sandusky is an assistant football coach, and he serves under obviously legendary head coach, Joe Paterno, in 1977 Sandusky founds the second mile, which is a charity dedicated to helping troubled children. It was through this charity that Sandusky allegedly found his victims, befriends them, and gives them presence, and then allegedly molests them. In 1994, a boy identified by the grand jury as victim number seven, now 26, met Sandusky through second mile. He told the grand jury that he has a blurry memory of having improper contact with Sandusky when they were showering together in the football locker room on the Penn State campus at State College, Pennsylvania, a couple years later. 96 or 97, another boy identified by the grand jury as victim number four, who was now 27, began a relationship with Sandusky, that later resulted in repeated sexual violations. In 1998, Sandusky showered with a boy identified by the grand jury as victim number five, who at that time was now 22, pinning him in a corner, rubbing him and placing the boy's hand on his genitals. In 1998, a boy identified as victim number six, now 24, told the grand jury, Sandusky asked to shower with him when he was 11, and that Sandusky lathered soap on his back and bear hugged him. The boy told his mother, who reported the incident to university police, leading to a lengthy investigation. In 1998, university police contact that conducts, excuse me, an investigation into allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys, and the football showers, however, no criminal charges were pursued. In 98, university police interview Sandusky, who admitted, showering naked with victim number six and hugging him in the shower, and conceding, it was wrong. A university police detective told Sandusky never to shower with children again, according to a grand jury report. 99, Sandusky retires his defensive coordinator, but retains many privileges, accesses access to the athletic facilities, and then Sandusky publishes his autobiography, touched the Jerry Sandusky story. 2000, a boy identified by the grand jury's victim number three, now 24, testified that Sandusky would bear hug him in the shower after workouts and touches genitals while sleeping over at Sandusky's house. Fall of 2000, a janitor saw Sandusky in the showers, performing oral sex on a boy identified as victim eight, who was pinned against the wall. The janitor told coworkers and his supervisor, but the incident was not reported to authorities at the time, 2001, a graduate assistant, later identified as Mike McQueary, reports seeing Sandusky rape a boy, who appeared to be about 10 years old in the shower on the campus of the football locker room at State College. This keeps going on and on and on with this much evidence. Why should we believe that he could potentially be innocent? - Well, to begin with, most of that is not evidence. These are media derived reports of a timeline that is largely inaccurate, and we could take it one by one, but let's just pick one, for example, and was maybe the last one you spoke of, where a janitor saw Sandusky, what was the phrase all I mean? - Actually, if you want, Frank, we can just start with the first one and then go down from there if you know it. 94, we'll start with this. The boy who was identified as victim number seven, who told the grand jury that he blurry memory of improper contact with Sandusky while showering together in the football locker room at Penn State. - Well, they all developed memory. Victim number seven was Dustin Strobel, and he was a man who told the police that nothing happened to him, and then he got a civil attorney that was out in the area advertising for victims, and they took him to a therapist, Cindy McNabb, and after repeated repressive, recovered memory therapy, he then remembered that something happened. So he started off, nothing happened with the police. He went to the grand jury and said, "Nothing happened." Then he realized as every one of the accusers realized that they were going to be millionaires, and then he remembered with the help of his recovered, repressed memory therapist and his attorney that he was abused. He didn't know it at the time. He didn't remember it when he was approached by police when they were scouring the area looking for victims. So Dustin Strobel changed his story, and he was properly rewarded. He got $3.25 million. - Okay, now, Anthony, on the show in the past, you've talked about recovered memories and the controversy surrounding them. - Well, there's no, saying there's controversy surrounding them is saying there's controversy surrounding flat earth theory. There is no controversy, only mongs believe in that, right? Like, it was proposed by Sigmund Freud, which is to say, over 100 years ago, and even he came to the conclusion that it was nonsense. - Now, I've never heard of it. If you could explain it to the audience, I'd never heard of it until this case. - Repressed memory therapy is essentially, look, I'll try not to editorialize too much. A psychiatrist goes through a series of different activities. Sometimes they use hypnosis, sometimes other stuff, but essentially they do something that would, in a court of law, get stricken out immediately, which is to say they would lead the witness, right? They tell them to imagine a play. It's almost like, based on the reading I've done in the past couple of weeks about it, to prepare for this interview, it's almost like Mind Palace Technique, where you imagine yourself in a room in your house that you're very familiar with. Like, you were here, okay, now what happened? Did he do this, did he do that? That would be leading the witness, right? Or ask and answer, for example. Essentially, what the scientific community believes is that all this is doing is implanting memories in people's head. So just some of the psychological science behind it, if you're not familiar with this, and you should be familiar with this because it makes trial court extremely dubious. Eyewitness testimony is about 30 to 35% accurate. Like, if somebody commits a crime over there in the corner, and a cop comes to you within 10, 20 minutes afterwards and asks you their race, their height, their eye color, their hair color, you're gonna get that wrong. And I mean, you're gonna get the race right typically, right? But if it's white, you might say Latino. If it's Latino, you may say white. If it's like a bland white person, you're gonna get the height wrong, you're gonna get the eye color and hair color wrong. But most people, right, the vast majority of people. So eye witness testimony is very bad in the first place. Now, that doesn't count what something happens to you directly in this video, I'm just saying. - Sure. - Memory is weird. Another thing that happens is, when you ponder on something long enough and your brain starts to contextualize or rewrite it in your head, most of the memories you have aren't actually what happened. Most of the memories you have are what your brain has told you happen, right? So it's a picture of a picture of a picture over time. Now, that's what this procedure kind of does. It plants a picture in your head and then that becomes your memory. And that's why you see people give testimony on it and they seem very convincing. And that isn't to say that everybody that testifies is doing that. But somebody that has one story and then they go through repressed memory therapy and then they have another story is bullshit. - Yeah, actually it happened on a show earlier this morning with Bob, our producer, dead serious over Jurassic Park and not remembering a relationship correctly to the point where you have to go back and look it up. If the facts aren't there, then yeah, you could be talked into anything like Bob did earlier. Bob, they were dating in Jurassic Park, all right? Next up was the other boy in 1996 or '97. A boy identified by the grand jury is victim number four. Now 27 who began a relationship with Sandusky and later resulted in repeated sexual violations. Frank, what was that one in regards to? - That is Brett Swisher-Hoots. And Brett was in his mid-20s when he testified. He was another repressed memory patient who was enlisted by the police. None of these accusers came forward on their own. And he was interviewed by police. And it's a curious thing because the police decided early on not to record any of the interviews. They believe that that could be material for the defense. And so in their targeting of Sandusky, they recorded no interviews of any of the, I think it was 600 total, second-mile young men that they interviewed to rustle up eight accusers. And Brett Swisher-Hoots, the young man who was referred to, they, unfortunately, for the prosecution, they left the tape recorder on. It was accidentally recorded. They left the tape recorder on, it was accidentally turned on. And it's a marvel in misleading police interrogation. The Swisher-Hoots was with his civil attorney. This was long before the indictment. They were already planning to make money. And Hoots would not say that Sandusky abused him. So the police and the civil lawyer consulted. And this was caught on tape outside the presence of Hoots where they said, we have to lie to him. The only way we're gonna get him to say this is we have to tell him that there's already nine or 10 other people who have accused Sandusky. And then he'll feel comfortable. And the attorney, civil attorney and the police conspire. - Wait, was that true? Was it true that nine or 10 others had already accused them? All they had was, all they had was McCreary's hazy testimony about seeing some boy in the shower 10 years earlier. And they had victim number one, Aaron Fisher, who was at first said that Sandusky did not abuse him or was a victim of the repressed memories therapy. - And then McCreary's testimony, there are emails between him and a government official that show that he didn't actually say what the media interviews said he said. He's like, yeah, I never said any of that. What I said was I saw, I heard slapping in the shower. And then I saw what appeared to be a 10 year old and then I saw somebody grab him or something like that from behind a wall. That's actually what he saw. - Okay, so was it, Frank, was it true that Sandusky was actually in the shower with this boy at any point? - Yes, it was the public locker room showers at Penn State. And the young man's name was Ellen Myers, was not 10 years old, he was 14 years old and they had worked out, which they used to do. And then they took a shower, they weren't in the same stall. This is an open big public area that's susceptible to having anybody come in at any time and they showered. That was not so uncommon years ago. And so there was no, the boy himself, this young man, Ellen Myers, signed a sworn affidavit that he was never molested by Sandusky and that all they were doing in the showers is they were doing a little horse player that were slapping towels just in the joking kind of way. And it was very clear that he had not been molested. With the prosecution, they put him in hiding during the trial and they told the jury that they didn't know who the shower boy was. - Okay, so now I played high school football during these exact years that are mentioned here in the exact years that we're talking about regarding this victim. No, a coach was not allowed to shower with me after the game, after a practice, on any of the four sports that I played in high school. It was a game. - I'm the same, I'm 43, you're a-- - 47. - 47. So late 80s to up through the late 90s, I guess, would have been the timeframe we covered in locker rooms with adult coaches. And I don't think I've ever even heard of that, frankly. - I have any eithers. - I mean, that's the only, I've read all the evidence for all of this and I don't believe most of what the conclusions are that happened in court. But that one's a problem for me. - Same, and to go back to what you said, in my personal opinion, no, it was not common at that time. And I was a varsity athlete who played four different sports. So I was in those showers a lot over the four years at Chattahoochee High School back in the day. And I was also in Georgia where you would expect that to happen. You know what I'm saying, Frank? - Yeah, I do. I would only say this of all the horrors that had been said about he was a throwback from another generation. And he didn't, I don't think he realized how that could be interpreted. He didn't have any, I don't believe he had any lascivious intent. But he did shower. He wasn't, I don't believe he had any thing in mind that was improper, but he didn't realize that it could be egregiously misinterpreted. - Okay, so in 1998, when Chattahoochee's shower with a boy identified in the grand jury as victim number five, who was 22 at that time, pinning him in a corner, rubbing him and placing the boy's hand on his genitals. Did that happen? - Which victim was that? And what number? - Victim number five. - That's Michael K. Jack. No, I don't think it happened. Michael K. Jack, who got $8 million, by the way, for his ever-evolving story. I don't believe his story is true. And one of the proofs of that is that K. Jack also describes that he was in the sauna room with Sandusky. He's part of his testimony. The difficulty is, is that he misstated everything so he could collect more money. There was no sauna room. - Yeah, so that one I can agree with, saunas weren't a part of locker rooms. And at that point, I was taking a lot of recruitment visits to colleges. I mean, what are the facilities and everything else? I never saw one with a sauna in it. - Well, you know, when I went to, and my growing up, the gym that I went to, not my high school one, but the gym I went to, was kind of like lifetime, is a really nice gym. It was over near the hospital in Greenville, South Carolina. It's called the Life Center, actually. And they had saunas. And I remember being 12, 13, 14, 15, and old dudes were fucking sitting in the sauna with their dick and balls out all the time. That was not uncommon. And they made no special effort to get out of the way or anything like that, right? I think when you're that age, you're just like, I'm here, dude, you got a fucking deal with it, right? I never felt, like I remember, how old would I have been? 13, it was 94, it was during the World Cup one year. I remember, 'cause we were watching on TV and I walk it through, and there's these old dudes walking around naked in the locker room. And it wasn't, it was like, as a teenager, I was like, oh, that's gross. - Yeah. - But I would say that now, right? It didn't feel weird or sexual, so. But they also weren't like bear hugging me or slapping me with a towel and shit. - Yeah, and it was also the last time the USA soccer men's team was good. - Yeah, Alexi Lawless. - Yeah. - Yeah. So then we'll go on to the next victim, allegedly in '98, a boy identified his victim number six. Told Grand Jerry Sandusky asked to shower with him when he was 11, and that Sandusky lathered him with soap on his back and bear hugged him. The boy told his mother, who reported the incident to University Police leading to a lengthy investigation. Is that true? Because one would imagine that University of Police would keep a record of that. - Well, it's only partially true. This boy was named, his name is Zach Constance. He never said that Jerry molested him. He, as I recall, he came home in 1998, and what I was told is he had cancer. And Jerry took a little interest in the boy and tried to help all these kids, by the way, were underprivileged, or people who came from broken families. And his hair was what his mother asked. How come your hair is wet? And he said, well, we worked out and then we took a shower. She then reported it to the police. Police investigated. It was not a lengthy investigation. It was a mere interview of the boy, who said nothing happened. And then they talked to Sandusky. All of this is documented. He said nothing happened. And that was what happened, nothing. Then they resuscitated this when they did the Sandusky, us acutely, you know, like it was, that the boy had forgotten and repressed memories, then came into play. And then he remembered that he hugged him. - Okay, now to your points, no criminal charges were pursued in that one. So I'm imagining if there was a lengthy investigation, or whatever, if they didn't pursue criminal charges, chances are this one could hold up. Then as far as this one is concerned. Now in 1998, University Police interview Sandusky, who admitted showering naked with victim number six and hugging him in the shower and conceding it was wrong. Like University Police detectives told Sandusky, never to shower with children. Again, according to a grand jury report. Is that true and was that in the grand jury report? - It may have been in the grand jury report. We don't get the report. We don't get the minutes. But yet I don't think it is true that he expressed any remorse or anything other than just telling the plain truth. I took a shower and after a workout, I don't believe he said, I'll never do it again or express any kind of remorse. I think that was more of the grand jury fabrications and exaggerations. - Okay. And then in '99, Sandusky retired as defensive coordinator, but retained many privileges such as access to Penn State athletic facilities. Now, this story happened a long time ago, obviously. So my memory is a little blurry. And I'm gonna need your help on this one. Was this when the story started to go public Dan and then he retired? Or did the university ask Sandusky to retire? - That I don't know. I don't actually know how that all went down. I just know he retired. So as I recall, just having been a fan of Penn State back in the day, which is why eventually we've got my grad degree there. But Sandusky was kind of like the... He was the heir apparent to take over for a fraternal as head coach or whatever. 'Cause he had been one of the best defensive coordinators in the history of that university, right? Which was, at the time they were still relatively close to the last national championship now, pretty far away. But... - But they've always been good. - Yeah, always good. They're always a contender. So he was the heir apparent. And what I heard behind the scenes and you take this for what it's worth, but there could have been beef between him and paternal. 'Cause if you recall, starting around '99, 2000, they started to struggle a lot. Like there was a period of six or eight years where they had kind of sucked. And it was the go, Joe, go, or whatever the fuck people were saying. I don't remember exactly what it was. And that to me seemed like there was a lot of pressure to bring in Sandusky. His name was the only one that ever came up. Get rid of Joe, bring in Sandusky to coach, right? Fair enough. So maybe there was some tension there, but aside from that, I don't remember him resigning in disgrace or anything. My understanding was he just retired. - Frank, is that the actual story that he just retired on his own? - He did retire on his own. He wanted to be a head coach. Joe Paterno was in no rush to retire. In fact, he coached for another 13 years. And Paterno said you'll never be head coach because you spend too much time on your second mile charity. And he decided to retire and look into building his charity, which it did grow exponentially and became, I think all together served more than 100,000 children of which they rustled up eight accusers. - Okay, and now in 2000, another boy identified by the grand jury's victim, number three, who was now 24, testified that Sandusky would bear hug him in the shower after workouts and touch his genitals while sleeping at Sandusky's house. Was that true? - No, that wasn't his first story, by the way. That's Jason San Francisco. - Okay. - And he testified initially to the police that Jerry never abused him. And he said that he hoped that Jerry would be, 'cause this was all highly publicized, be acquitted of all charges. They put a lot of pressure on him, got him with a civil attorney. The civil attorney got him with a recovered memory therapist. And they helped him remember the two things. One is that Jerry abused him and maybe more importantly, if he testified correctly, he would get the $7.25 million that he ultimately got. - So he did receive $7.25 million. - Every one of the accusers got between $1.5 million and $20 million for their outrageous perjury. There wasn't a one that didn't get millions. - Okay. And now a janitor said he saw Sandusky in the showers performing oral sex on a young boy, identified as victim eight, who was pinned against the wall. The janitor told coworkers and his supervisors, but the incident was not reported to authorities at the time. Is that true? 100% bullshit, 100%. It's not even, there's not even a granule of truth in that bizarre and illegal use of hearsay testimony. The janitor was not called to testify. The prosecution lied and said that the janitor was incapacitated when they were sitting on a tape of the actual janitor who witnessed anything that said that Jerry Sandusky did not do anything. Instead, the prosecution lied to the court and said that the original janitor wasn't available. We have a hearsay witness who heard the janitor say something and they allowed hearsay, a 12 year remove from a janitor, another janitor who saw nothing. - So let me back up a second so I can understand what's going on here. So during the criminal trial, the prosecution introduced testimony from a person who was incapacitated for whom they had the video of his testimony but didn't use and the judge allowed this to happen, that's bizarre. I don't think of, I mean, that's not typical. Am I right? That's the literal definition of hearsay, which would be stricken from the record. - And why was the janitor incapacitated? - He was ill, but he was not incapable. He made the recording, a recorded interview with the Pennsylvania State Police that said Jerry Sandusky was innocent. They suppressed that information. - Is that video out there somewhere? - The recording is out there. - Yeah, where is it? Is it in the, is there an article with that in it or is it on the internet somewhere? - I have the transcript and Jerry Sandusky's lawyer as post conviction lawyer has the actual recording. - Well, maybe you should send it to us and we can post it on the internet because I feel like that's something I would wanna see. - Yeah, 'cause, you know, something like that would certainly help and obviously would go viral, especially in today's age. I would highly recommend his lawyer post that and get that out to the world if he indeed has those recordings. - There's no doubt even the prosecution is acknowledged now that the recording is authentic. So they used a hearsay guy because they did not wanna use the actual witness 'cause he would have exonerated Sandusky. So they used a janitor who knew the janitor to testify. He even had the fight as to what he thought was in the original janitor's mind and the judge who was completely biased allowed to let the hearsay evidence in. And why was the judge biased? - Well, I think he was under a great deal of pressure because the football season was gonna be canceled if they didn't convict Jerry Sandusky in time. And that means that he had to be convicted in the summer of 2012. So the football season would not be canceled. And he, I don't know how much guys even know about how quickly trials of the complicated nature like this take between indictment and trial. But in this case, it was rushed in seven months from the indictment to the trial. And the discovery was not given to the defense attorney until 10 days. Before trial, the defense attorney for Sandusky asked for a adjournment, the judge denied it. He then asked to be taken off the case because he couldn't properly represent Sandusky and the judge denied it. So they made him go to trial without the time it takes to normally review 12,000 pages of discovery. - Yeah, and I agree. Dan and I have had numerous guests on over the years. Trials are very long. - That's seven months. - Now it's for a three year process. - For a federal, - Two of your lucky. - For a federal felony with what 12 witnesses, 12 primary witnesses, there's not one prayer that gets done in seven months. Just the logistics of bringing all those people to the same place. - Including children. - Yeah, like, come on, man. - Yeah. - So that, I do remember that even during the trial, despite how you feel about how it was conducted or how you feel about the results of it, whether you think he's guilty or not, everybody was talking about it being rushed then. And the theme was specifically that Penn State couldn't start their football season until this got adjudicated. So I remember that for sure. That was public back then even. - I believe the death penalty was on the table. - Ah yeah. The death penalty for, not for Sandusky, but for Penn State. - For Penn State, correct. - Which is explain what that means, Bob in NCAA terms. - It means your football program may never recover. I mean, it's just like totally shut down for a while. It's what happened to SMU. If you watch the Pony Access 30 for 30, SMU was an up and coming burgeoning power in a power conference in the Southwestern conference with UT, Arkansas, stuff like that. And they got the death penalty for paying their players back in the day, Eric Dickerson, I believe, and Craig James, stuff like that. After the NCAA came down on them, the program was shuttered and stripped of any possible, I think like scholarships, anything that they could do to build a program. So your football program, which is your biggest revenue maker in your athletic department, and maybe your best, probably for a state school, especially arguably your best marketing device for your university, totally shuttered. And that says nothing of the amount of money the town loses from people coming in. That's 100,000 seat stadium. I mean, it's endless. - Yeah, and I think there's, I think on an NCAA football team, there's 88 players plus a practice squad or something like that. Like total, so, or I'm sorry, 88 players including the practice squad. And I think you get 85 total scholarships, which would include people who were injured or registered or whatever. All the scholarships go away, like all of them. You're not eligible for bowl games. You're not eligible for some TV revenues. It depends on how they decide on it and how your contracts work, but you're not eligible for the bowl game TV revenue for sure. And what happens with big universities often is they get paid just for showing up places. So, you know, it's, that was what Penn State was facing. Now I wanna get into, people can read this for themselves. There's a lot of documentation on it. There's an article, I believe it's called The Most Hated Man in America or something like that. Is that accurate? Yeah, so it's, you can, you can, you can read that article. It's, it's broken into multiple parts. There's another one in the Tribune, Democrat, reconsidering Sandusky and it's a five part that you can read the evidence and stuff you can research is on your own. Something that is very interesting and confusing to me, aside from the trial getting rushed and the, the outcome being what it is and maybe some people believe, said some things that weren't true. Why? Why go to all this trouble to assassinate the character of Jerry Sandusky? Why? What would be the purpose? 'Cause he was already retired at the time. Well, I think there was a lot of politics behind the scenes. There was Governor Corbett's feud with the president of Penn State, Graham Spaniard. - Real quick, we got some sponsors that put this show on the air. 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We had a hurricane towards the early part of the week and it is knocked out to internet across the entire state and it is spectrum, happy to pin all the blame on them and testify in court if need be here, kidding. But I wanna go back to the most damning evidence in this, which is the graduate assistant, later identified as Mike Mcqueery, reports seeing Sandusky rape a boy who appeared to be about 10 years old in the shower on the campus football locker room at State College called victim two by the grand jury. The boy has not been identified or located. Yeah, but that's not. So here's what happened after that. And unfortunately, the defense attorney didn't have access to this until after it got released after the trial, but an uncovered email string between Mcqueery, who you just mentioned, an assistant attorney general, Janelle Eschbach, shortly after the 2011 press release which Mcqueery protested, he never testified to a scene rate. Eschbach replied, "I know that a lot of this stuff "is incorrect and it is hard not to respond, "but you can't." The assistant attorney general of Pennsylvania told him that he couldn't respond and say what they're saying and the media isn't true. She effectively gave him a back alley fucking gag order for some reason. Now he testified that he called his father after the episode and that together with a mandated reporter, that is to say, you do you know what mandated reporting is? - Yes, yes, yes, kids. And family friend Dr. Jonathan Dronov, they unpacked what had happened after thorough questioning Dronov concluded that there were no grounds to assume any kind of sexual abuse. He testified as much to authorities and was never indicted for a failure to report. Dronov would have been indicted for a failure to report had he not done his job there. And we know that because later on he applied for a position that required a security clearance from naval intelligence from NCIS, they conducted a security review of him and he got a security clearance after that, right? So this is how we're tracking this back. So the shit that McCreary said, he didn't say and they wouldn't let him come out and say he didn't say it. So I don't know what the fuck happened there. I would love to hear from you, Frank, on exactly what happened here. - Yeah, regarding Mike McCreary. - Well, you know, my favorite part of the whole thing was the way the prosecution invented a stool. And they put a stool in a sketch that they showed the jury of the shower room. And the reason why they put a stool in is that they wanted to say that Jerry Sandusky at six foot two was standing right up against a 10 year old boy and raping him. Well, the height didn't work out. So they threw a stool in and told the jury that the boy must have been standing on a stool. As I mentioned earlier, this boy was not 10. He was 14, his name is Alan Myers. And he wrote, he told the police and he wrote a signed sworn affidavit that Jerry did not abuse him. And the prosecution and his civil attorney hid him during the trial so that he never testified. And Jerry's lawyer couldn't find him. And so consequently, the prosecution said, "Oh, we don't know who the boy in the shower was." So he got lies all around. - So just to recap, McCreary says, I saw, or at least the media says that McCreary says, I saw a boy getting raped in the shower and the boy, the end of it, they couldn't find the guy who actually had happened to. - Right. - That's what is what's going on. - And about 10 days later, McCreary was called to do a meeting with senior athletic director, Tim Curly and Schultz. I don't know Schultz's first name, forgive me on that. - Gary. - Okay. And he said he would recount and what he seen, the incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency. Curly told the grand jury that he was informed of inappropriate contact and coursing around, but not of sexual assault. Curly barred Sandusky from bringing minors onto campus. Prosecutors initially said the incident occurred in March of 2002, but later changed the date to February 2001. Why? - They changed it so it would comport with McCreary going to Joe Paterno so they could slam Paterno. First, they said it was 2002, but there was no meeting with Paterno in 2002. So they changed it to February of 2001. So it would match Paterno's schedule and they made it the day before McCreary was on Paterno's schedule 'cause he was a very busy man and he had a pretty tight schedule. But then it turned out that McCreary was wrong about that date or the government was wrong about that date. It was actually December 28th of 2000 that he saw Sandusky in the public shower room which he had access to. And actually he didn't see anything. He heard some slapping sounds. - Slapping sounds in regard to towels or slapping sounds regarding sex? - Well, I think the testimony afterwards was that they were slapboxing each other in the shower. That's what I recall from reading the article. - Okay, and you can confirm that. So it was nothing of sexual nature is what you're saying, Frank? - That is correct. And it's not just I'm saying that the young man now an adult said that nothing happened. He said McCreary was a liar. Of course McCreary never said there was rape. That was invented for him by Jonelle Eshbaal, the prosecutor. And when he complained and said, I never said there was rape. She said, "I know a lot of these things are wrong, "but you can't say anything about it." And later when she was called to testify about this curious response that she gave to a witness that's akin to subordination of perjury, she said, "I did it because I wanted to save my case." This is Jonelle Harder-Eshbach, who is a York County solicitor now, but at the time, and she's got pronouns in her bio, by the way, if that tells you anything, but at the time she was the assistant, one of the assistant attorney generals of Pennsylvania. - Okay. - Senior deputy attorney general of Commonwealth, the Pennsylvania office. I mean, come on, man. - Yeah. - Like you can't, that would be the equivalent of Merrick Garland's deputy getting involved in an ongoing case for the Department of Justice and saying, "Hey, I know you've got exculpatory evidence, "but you can't go tell anybody." That is insanely criminal, right? That isn't just tampering, that's a felony. - Sure. Now, 2004 to 2008, a boy who was identified to the grand jury as victim number nine, claims that he was forced to perform oral sex on Sandusky repeatedly in the basement bedroom of Sandusky's home, and Sandusky attempted to rape him at least 16 times, according to the statewide grand jury. On trips to a hotel, Sandusky would expose himself and engage in other inappropriate conduct. Was that true? - No. The victim number nine is Sebastian Paden, and Paden got $20 million for his story. And the most egregious part of his story, the most damnable part of it was that he said that Sandusky locked him in the basement and was a soundproof basement and he couldn't escape and he would scream. He was 16 years old when this allegedly happened, and he would scream and scream and no one would come to help him. And yet he would come back the next weekend and do it all over again for 150 weekends in a row. And I sent you, gentlemen, I don't know if it's readily available, I sent you a video of the basement. And as you can see from the video, you can't lock somebody in. Anyone can get out of that basement, and it's not soundproof. - Yeah, I've seen the video of the basement, and I agree, yes, you could get out of that basement. It's not as if all four walls were solid concrete. You could clearly leave if you wanted to. It's just such a specific number of times that is mentioned in this, another one of the common themes here over the last, let's say three or four victims that I read off was that these alleged victims were always at Sandusky's house. What were they doing at his house in the first place and why were they there? - Well, you'll find that these so-called victims all knew each other, and not only did they know each other, they even took therapy together, joint therapy for recovered memory, and anybody that knows about therapy should recognize that if you put all of the so-called victims all under the tutelage of their lawyers together with therapy, they're gonna create some similar stories just through collaboration. And the case of Sebastian paid number nine and victim number one, Aaron Fisher, they defy the actual laws of physics because they both testified on separate dates that they were 150 weekends in a row, every weekend in Jerry Sandusky's basement, being abused by him, and yet they never met. - Interesting, interesting. In 2007 and eight, a boy identified by the Center County Grand Jerry's victim number one, testified that Sandusky performed oral sex on him more than 20 times when he was 13 or 14 years old. Sandusky also had victim one perform oral sex on him one day and also touched victim one's genitals with his hands. Are you familiar with victim one? - Very much so. - Okay, and what was the situation with him? - He was the little liar that started the whole thing, and he was 15 years old and he didn't want to volunteer to help at the second mile as he had promised after he had received some help from Sandusky. And he told his mother he didn't want to go and this is how the ball got rolling and wound up being an avalanche against Sandusky. And he said nothing happened, except he just felt that Jerry was creepy. His mother turned this into a accusation and she brought him to Mike Gillum, a recovered memory therapist. And Mike Gillum worked with Aaron Fisher every day for about six months and he finally got Fisher to remember that he was abused by Jerry Sandusky. It took six months of therapy because for six months he said he wasn't abused. Then he finally remembered. In the meantime, his mother obtained a civil attorney and it became clear that there would be money available if the testimony and the memories were a little bit sharper. It's an interesting thing too because Fisher had to go to the grand jury three times. The first time he said Sandusky did not abuse him. The second time he tried to get the words out of his mouth and Sandusky abused him, but he threw up and collapsed on the floor. It was only the third time, the third appearance of the grand jury when they wrote out his speech for him and read it and he just nodded his head that he was able to actually present evidence. It took two years. For two years he was the only accuser. Then Mike McCreary popped up. They leaked the grand jury, the prosecutors leaked the grand jury to the media, the media then created this huge story and then they were able to get some other accusers to come forward. - Okay, I want to go back because I think it's obvious that there's some holes here and shortcuts taken and maybe some fabrications that have happened as well. And I'll say again, I think being in putting, he's no matter what happened or didn't happen. Sandusky definitely put himself in some terrible situations. Whether it's a generational thing or not, that is just not a good idea. But I want to get back to what we, before we got cut off by our shitty internet, why did this happen? Like what would be the purpose of taking down Sandusky who didn't really have any enemies that I can remember? - I think it was a combination of factors. It was like a snowball rolling down a hill. Governor Corbett at the time had a feud with the president of Penn State. And he was a perfect one. McQuarrie's story pops up and now we can accuse Penn State of a cover-up. It's a perfect political opportunity to get rid of his nemesis Graham Spaniard president. It was a perfect opportunity to collaborate with the Penn State Board. And Governor Corbett was a member of the Penn State Board of Trustees to collaborate to get rid of Joe Paterno, the enemy of Surma, John Surma, the chairman of the board. And it was a chance for the prosecutors who were convictions stat-driven to develop a high-profile case. It was an opportunity for the NCAA to levy a huge fine. And it was an opportunity for the aid accusers all to become millionaires under the tutelage of their therapists and more importantly, their civil attorneys. - Okay. Now, in September of 2010, Sandusky eventually does retire from the second mile. Did he do that voluntarily or was he forced to in that sense? - Well, he created the second mile and he did it voluntarily, but by that time, there was a publicity about this investigation and he felt that the charity he started would be better off with him resigning. - Okay, because then, you know, November 2005 of 2011, the center county grand jury charges Sandusky with 40 counts of molesting eight boys from '94 to 2009, which we covered Sandusky was arrested and released on $100,000 of unsecured bail. Each, the charges carried a maximum combined penalty of 373 years in prison. Two university officials, Curly and Schultz, that I mentioned earlier, are each charged with one count of perjury. For testimony, they gave about their knowledge of accusations against Sandusky. What were the perjury charges against Curly and Schultz? - They were perjury charges because these two men told the truth. That Dr. Dr. Drenoff, they told the same story that Dr. Dr. Drenoff told. And that was that it was horse play. It may not have been appropriate. It was wrong perhaps, but it wasn't sexual. And they took plea deals because of the extraordinary prejudice in the media. And they wound up with, I think misdemeanor charges and very short prison sentences for actually telling the truth that nothing really happened. They chose instead to believe Mike Macquarie, who is a notorious gambler and liar and a man who even bet on his own football games and he was a quarterback, a notorious villain in this case. And reputations for room Joe Patero, of course, his reputation was destroyed. He died two months after he was fired the day or two after the indictment. - Yeah, and as a matter of fact, November 2006, the day after of 2011, Patero issues a statement in which he acknowledges being told by Macquarie in 2002 of the incident in the shower but that he had no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the grand jury report. Did Patero know anything about this? 'Cause that's what a lot of people over the years at Penn State obviously wanted to know. - It's a great travesty against a very good man's reputation and his integrity of a lifetime 61 years of service to Penn State and his legacy ends with bullshit with a lie told by Mike Macquarie and exaggerated and amplified by Junella Shba, the prosecutor, and he did nothing wrong. He did exactly what he should have done which is he was told by Macquarie that it was an inappropriate event, not sexual. He told that to Gary Schulz and Tim Curly and they investigated and they said, okay, there was no sexual contact, it was horse play, it's inappropriate, Jerry Sandusky, you can't bring any more teenagers to the Penn State locker rooms or to the Penn State exercise facilities. - Well, upon this they destroyed his legacy, Patero's legacy and they ruined the lives of these excellent educators and administrators, Spaniard, Curly and Schulz, and they threw an innocent man in prison. He is in their 12 years and he's 80 years old and I believe he's 100% innocent. Now, in regards to Joe Patero here, two days after that, three days after that, excuse me, November 9th of 2011, Patero announces he will retire at the end of the 2011 football season, but that the University Board of Trustees later that day says Patero and the president, Spaniard have been fired effective immediately and the announcement of Patero's firing thousands of students demonstrate and protest. Now, Joe Patero, 'cause Dan and I are huge college football fans and is what Dan said at the top of the show that Dan is a Penn State grad. We know Joe Patero is a guy, in my opinion, the only guy in college football coaching history who probably would have coached that team until he died. - Yeah. - There's no way he would have left voluntarily. Also, Penn State, in my opinion, is a blue blood. They've been great for years and years and years at this point. This felt to me that they wanted the old man out sort of this similar situation with Bobby Bowden down at Florida State. Now, obviously, he wasn't under this type of, these allegations that were going on within the program at the time, but do you think that played a role in getting Patero out of there as well for the board to say, all right, we got all the allegations, we got everything else, let's just blow the whole thing up and start over again, but we can't do that until we get rid of Joe Patero. - Well, I'll show you the kind of class these guys had. He said it was in return at the end of the year, so they could have gotten rid of him, but they didn't even bother to call him in to talk to him. They called him on the telephone in the evening and said, "Dude, you're fired." After 61 years, and the winning this coach in college football history. And there was a blood feud, really more on the side of the chairman of the board of Penn State because I was John Serma, then the CEO of USDA. His nephew didn't make the team at Penn State. And as the chairman, he felt that his nephew should have been treated a little bit differently than other athletes. And apparently, because he didn't make the team according to Serma, he got on drugs, OD'd and died, and he blamed the death on Joe Paterno. So this was personal. He wanted to get Joe Paterno at any cost. - And then back to what you had said earlier, in January of 2022, 2012, Paterno, who is now 85, does end up dying of lung cancer. And the school received, or they gave him 5.5 million in severance, and Paterno's pension from Penn State is calculated to be $13.4 million. Did they withhold, or withhold $8 million? What was the reasoning behind that? - You know, I don't know the details of that. - Okay. - For scenario, I do recall talking to one of the coaches who said that Paterno didn't know he was ill when this, he was fired. He later went to the doctor and found out that he had the lung cancer and died within two months. He was 86, 85, I believe. - Okay, and then in June of 2020, 20 seconds of 2012, the jury found Sandusky guilty of 45 of the 48 charges against him, 25 felonies and 20 misdemeanors. And he's obviously led out of the courtroom in handcuffs at that point. What was the final year count that he ended up getting in prison? Jerry Sandusky. - The sentence was 30 to 60 years. He's been in 12. - Okay, so more than likely, unless, you know, a Hail Mary pun intended happens here, he'll probably die in prison. Why would you agree to report on this? Because let's face it, a lot of people out there won't touch a pedophile case whatsoever. What implored you specifically to get involved and try to help tell the real story, or your real story behind what happened to Jerry Sandusky? - Well, you know, first I wasn't sure if he was innocent, partly innocent, partly guilty or completely guilty. I just noticed that the process was wrong. The due process had been eliminated right from the beginning. Everything was based on the lack of presumption of innocence. And the second thing that struck me was that every one of these accusers were lawyered up before the trial. And every one of them made between 1.5 million and $20 million. And these were poor guys from rural Pennsylvania who were coached by sophisticated lawyers. And Penn State announced early on, 'cause there was no presumption of innocence. Even before he was indicted, Penn State said, we'll pay for any therapy. Penn State acknowledged the guilt of paternal and Sandusky before a jury did. And then what I found to be the most fascinating thing was they based the changing stories of these accusers on repress memory. And there was one very interesting thing that I think really was the light turning on for me. Normally you get a preliminary hearing. The judge called a meeting between the prosecutor and Sandusky's attorney excluded Sandusky. And they didn't hold the hearing in court. They held it in a hotel. They had a secret off the record hotel meeting that came out four years after Sandusky was convicted. The judge, now normally I think most judges hold their hearings in court. This one held it in a hotel without the defendant present, no stenographer of course. And there they decided that they would wave the preliminary hearing where you would have questioned the repressed memory theories. It's called a fry hearing. And you would have called a fry hearing to exclude all of the repressed memories. And the compromised and very horrible attorney for Sandusky agreed to this. And so Sandusky without even knowing it lost his right to challenge the repressed memory. And then they rushed the trial seven months from indictment to trial. - And for you personally, you've worked on a ton of other crazy stories. A lot of them involving sex. Tell me about the next theme. - Next theme was a case that I broke where, and I had to write stories for months before the New York Times picked it up. And they found that everything had written was true. He was branding women and collecting blackmail. He was a leader of what you might call called, called next theme's name is Keith Ranieri. My story led to his 120 year prison sentence where he is now. And five others were convicted in his group. And I was the sole voice for a long time saying he is a gigantic criminal. And I think I have a case here with Jerry Sandusky that I've been the sole voice. I was writing on my own frank report that I published, wrote two stories for the Daily Mail. It is now beginning to catch on that even if you don't believe he's innocent, you have to look at the due process breaches. You don't hold hearings in a hotel to waive vital rights. You don't change the grand jury until your main witness to not say anything about what's wrong in a grand jury meeting. You don't incentivize your accusers with millions of dollars. And right down the line, no one gave this guy a fair trial. He at least is entitled to a new trial. - Yeah, and I bring up next theme because that's where I first became familiar with you. I watched on the HBO Doc series, The Vow. My wife and I were big fans of that series in particular. We actually discussed it on another program, Ross Patterson Revolution sometime back. And the insanity behind that documentary was crazy. What draws you personally to these cases? Just to expose them? Or are you fascinated by this sex and cults and everything else? 'Cause you got a lot of cases like this. - My first case was I took the lifetime lease of the maid of the mist away from the guy that had it and got $330 million more for the public in Niagara Falls. When I see something that I believe is truly wrong and the whole mainstream media doesn't have it right, then I like to get involved. I've become very acutely aware of the fact that because a lot because of the media and this new crazy paradigm where if you're an accuser, you can't be lying. This is a new idea. There's no real scrutiny of accusers. And the government and prosecutors are motivated by conviction stats, not justice. Consequently, many innocent people are convicted. Jerry Sandoski, I believe is one of them. He's a high profile case. I can give you many cases that are less high profile of innocent people in prison because of the, we must believe all accusers. We can't even question their story. In fact, the fact that they're called victims, not accusers, is an immediate, pejorative and a biasing factor against the defendant because it introduces a fact that has not been established in front of the jury. They're not victims, they're accusers. - Yeah, and with you in particular, have you been able to speak to the Sandoski family? And the biggest question I would have regarding his case is why haven't they sued? Since you have all of this evidence, you've been reporting on it. I know you're trying to get the story out to a bigger audience and we were certainly welcome to have you on the show today. Dan and I like to hear both sides of everything regardless of what the public opinion is. - Yeah, I mean, I don't trust the media and I damn sure don't trust the government. So, and I recommend you don't either. If the last eight years hasn't taught you that, then you may not ever learn that particular lesson. - Right, and we always want to ask questions. So, yeah, why hasn't the Sandoski family sued? - Well, you know, I've spoken to Jerry Sandoski more than a hundred times. And in 15 minute phone calls, they get cut off at 15 minutes in one second from the prison, let's talk to his wife and they don't have any standing to sue until he's exonerated. The official record shows he's guilty. He needs to get exonerated, he needs a new trial. Then he could sue, then he will sue. I predict he will get exonerated and I believe that he will sue. And there's a lot of villains. And what I like to say is this, I am prepared to challenge to a debate. Any of the prosecutors, Governor Corbett, any of the accusers, any of their lawyers, I would happily debate them anywhere live on these issues. And I believe I will demolish their arguments, show that they are inconsistent and that they unfairly convicted this man. - But what if Sandoski dies in prison and isn't granted a new trial at that point? This story's gone forever at that point and it's been written in history. You're not going to be able to get a retrial. - Not if he dies, he's pretty healthy. I would say he's got a real good chance of going another five or eight or 10 years. And the state of Massachusetts apologized to the descendants of the 50 or so women who were convicted 300 years earlier in Salem is they finally figured out that they made a mistake. I don't think it's going to take that long this time. - Would an apology suffice or would you want any financial settlement for him? - It's not my choice. When I found out about Jerry Sandoski and I think it's true, he's kind of a big kid. Now, I don't want to be too graphic, but he was born with the stigial testicles. He never really had the normal sex impulses that guys have. He's like a kid. He's very jovial and he's affectionate. He hugged these kids. He felt they needed help in his heart. You know, he's a very devout Christian in his heart. He believed he was trying to help these kids and he made some big efforts to do that and he helped hundreds of them and they incentivized to hold them to go against him. - Well, yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. I recommend all of you go do what normal people do and that is to say your own research. There's an article, a three or a five part article called "Reconsidering Sandoski" by Joseph Stains, S-T-A-I-N-S in the Tribune Democrat and then there's another body of work called, I believe it's the most hated man in America. Yeah, the most hated man in America by Mark Pendergrass that you can read and you can look at all the information that they put in there. You can find public information for the trial. I would recommend looking into it because it seems to me like some of the behavior is weird to me but it looks like this dude got railroaded pretty hard. I don't, and for what reason I still can't put my thumb on it but I'll tell you this. If any of the administrators from Penn State or any of his attorneys or any of these people wanted to bait you live, we're glad to host that. Absolutely. I appreciate that. Yes, sir. The best book I think is Mark Pendergrass, the most hated man in America, given on Amazon. It is a forensic masterpiece. It covers the entire case in excruciating detail and shows how in 400 pages, everything you need to know about the railroading of Jerry Sandusky. You can't walk away reading that book and still think that he got a fair trial. Interesting, we will. I have not read that. I don't know if you have, Dan. Yeah, I have, okay. Yeah, I mean, that's why he's on the show today. Because I think, regardless of what you think about the demonstrable facts of the case, the way the trial was handled is completely bananas. Like having the assistant or the deputy, whatever, attorney general of a state tell a guy not to share exculpatory evidence, that is the craziest shit. That implies that something's going on, right? I don't know what it was, maybe just trying to protect the conviction record, who knows, right? It could be something as simple as that. But if there's smoke, there's fire, especially when government's involved. Yeah, and that next same doc was next level. That was some of the craziest shit I've ever seen, Frank. Now's the point in the show. We get to something called the drinking bro of the week, which is someone who inspired you or helped you become the person you are today. Is there anybody that inspired you as a reporter that you looked up to, maybe a mentor? Oh, oh, I see, you know, I got into it not because of inspiration or rather self-defense. When people attacked me personally and I determined that the best way to do it was to write back, write at them. But I don't think that was the answer you wanted. No, who's helped you? Well, my father was a brilliant lawyer and he inspired me. And I had a number of Sicilian, I had a number of Sicilian friends and older gentlemen who had a certain lifestyle that I found to be highly honorable. So they were mobsters, is what you're saying? Not like... I'm sensing a little equivocation in this response. Yeah, it's fine. You don't have to say that? They were men of respect. There we go. Yeah. Sanitation. They worked in sanitation. They were good fellows. Yeah, they were good. We appreciate it. Frank, tell everybody where they can find you and to read more of your reporting. Well, the quickest easiest is frankreport.com where I do regular stories about Sandusky and the other cases I'm working on. And then I write for other publications and recently wrote a couple of stories for the Daily Mail. I think we're gonna do something of a documentary. I hope you'll watch it. I'm the Sandusky case as we move this along. Yeah, I'll keep my eyes peeled. I know they're working on something else for HBO. Did you happen to watch the version with Al Pacino by any chance? No, I did not. Just out of choice or you couldn't do it 'cause it did it too close to home. I imagined it was garbage. And I didn't wanna waste time with fictional stories. But can I just confirm something with you, Jens, if you will? Did you guys say that if any of these people agreed to debate me live, that you would consider having that debate here? Oh yeah, not consider it, we'd do it. Yeah, we'll do it in a second. Yeah. Yeah, look, this is the one show where we give everybody a chance to speak and you might have disagreements. People might not agree with this episode or anything that you're doing personally. But for Dan and I, we always wanna welcome people's opinions and then make their own informed opinions based on what they've heard and based on other people's accounts. Otherwise, we would just be a one-sided society that's going to hell. Some might say we're already headed that way. Anyways, but we try our best on a daily basis, Frank. And we appreciate you being here today. Thank you, it was my great pleasure and I enjoyed it. Appreciate your fairness and allowing me to express my opinions. Yes, sir. Absolutely. Go to iTunes, rate the show a five-star and leave a quick review. Also head on over to Spotify. It's just a five-star and you can walk away and check out the Frank reports. He's led an interesting life. And if you haven't seen that next theme doc, it is definitely one you wanna check out immediately. For Dan, Dan, and Anthony Holloway, I'm Ross Patterson. This is the Drinking Bros. podcast. Good night, everyone. (rock music) (rock music) Looking for a financial institution that has fewer fees, better rates, and gives back to the local community? As one of Colorado's largest credit unions, Belgo offers great rates on products like our free boost interest checking and lower rates on loans, including our home equity choice line. Bank virtually anytime, anywhere, through online banking and our mobile app. Becoming a member has never been easier. Visit belco.org or stop by any Belco branch, membership eligibility required, equal housing opportunity, all owned subject to approval, insured by NCUA. Belco, banking for everyone.
