Disc Golf Daily

DGD Movers & Shakers - Overthrow Disc Golf, Teaching the People

Summary Overthrow Disc Golf shares their journey into disc golf and how they became coaches. They discuss their roles in the company and the pros and cons of being full-time disc golf coaches. They emphasize the importance of finding the right coach for each individual and the need for more coaches in the sport. They also address the question of why people should choose them as coaches, highlighting the results they have achieved with their students. They encourage students to evaluate their progress after a reasonable amount of time and have open conversations with their coaches.

Keywords disc golf, coaches, journey, full-time, roles, finding the right coach, results Takeaways Finding the right coach is crucial for individual progress in disc golf. Results and progress should be the main criteria for choosing a coach, rather than their playing ability or rating. Coaches should be dedicated to their students and constantly improving their coaching methods. Open communication between coaches and students is important to ensure progress and address any concerns. The disc golf community needs more coaches to meet the demand for coaching services.

Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 16:09 Becoming Full-Time Disc Golf Coaches 24:50 Differentiating Themselves as Coaches 35:33 Addressing the Question of Coaching Credentials 46:04 Closing Remarks and Shoutouts

Duration:: 47m
Broadcast on:: 20 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

Finding the right coach is crucial for individual progress in disc golf.
Results and progress should be the main criteria for choosing a coach, rather than their playing ability or rating.
Coaches should be dedicated to their students and constantly improving their coaching methods.
Open communication between coaches and students is important to ensure progress and address any concerns.
The disc golf community needs more coaches to meet the demand for coaching services.

[MUSIC] >> Welcome back to Disc Golf Daily, everyone. I am here with Overthrow Disc Golf. So gentlemen, how are we doing today? >> This is great. Hey, thanks for having us on the podcast. >> Of course. >> We appreciate it. This is definitely not the second time we started the intro to this podcast. Those people were like, why are they laughing immediately? Yeah, we're happy to be here. And honestly, it's just nice to see your face then. That's why I'm here. I don't know why Josh is here, but. >> I appreciate that. Yeah, Josh, why is Josh here? Anyways, so tell us more about yourselves, what you do exactly and all that. >> See, I didn't answer the question. >> [LAUGH] >> You got it, you got it. >> We do Disc Golf instructional videos, mostly on technique. But some anything coaching related, we will do on YouTube at Overthrow Disc Golf. >> Yeah, I couldn't say better myself. [LAUGH] >> So, just tell us about how you kind of got into Disc Golf, and just give each, both of you give me the story of kind of your Disc Golf journey and how you got to where you are at now as coaches. >> So, I'm not a Disc Golf coach, Josh's, but I get coached by Josh. I was a, we were both tennis pros at, or coaching pros at a country club. And I'll just say, I guess from my perspective, I started playing Disc Golf for fun after being a camp counselor at a camp. And I hated Disc Golf at the time, it was one of the classes we taught as a camp. And I would always, anytime anyone came to Disc Golf class, I would say, all right guys, welcome to Disc Golf class, we're playing ultimate. And so, and all the kids look, yeah, cuz no one liked Disc Golf at this camp. Until there's one kid showed up with a big bag of discs. And I'm like, this guy's gonna mess up my Disc Golf class bro, completely mess it up. And so I see him and I'm like, this is gonna be an issue cuz this is not actually Disc Golf, we're gonna play ultimate. And so I do my normal spiel with him and he's like, nah, I'm still gonna play Disc Golf. And I'm like, all right, you play Disc Golf all the rest of us play ultimate. And then I saw him throw a disc. And then after that, I was like, well, I still hate this sport, but can you at least show me how to throw, you know, however far this was, it was the furthest flying thing I'd ever seen in my life. So that's how I got hooked on Disc Golf, but yeah, definitely never thought about doing any sort of channel or anything. So I'll let Josh give his backstory and how he actually ended up doing Disc Golf content. Well, you missed the part where that kid grew up to be Anthony Brela. So bro, yeah, I honestly don't know what happened to that guy anyways, he was 18. So he, this camp was for like a late high school or early high school at high school. So he was pretty decent already, he was not like pro level, but it didn't matter to throw far. Yeah, I got into Disc Golf. I spent a summer with a musician by the name of Matt Papa, and he and his band would go to different events. And it was their tradition that every new place they went to, they would play Disc Golf. So naturally as kind of the intern, I would join them and play Disc Golf. I got hooked very quickly. And then when I got done with that summer, with that trip, I just started playing a bunch. I played in college, and then I kind of stopped doing tennis, started playing Disc Golf. And then eventually Mikey and I got hooked up for a teaching position to teach some tennis camps at the country club he was working at at the time. And so then I started teaching tennis and I stopped playing Disc Golf. And then eventually he left to go direct at a different country club. And he was playing Disc Golf with his brothers. And so we went from hanging out every day at work to not hanging out. So I was like, hey, I played Disc Golf. So then we started hanging out playing Disc Golf. And just very naturally it was, with my background in Disc Golf, I was playing, I knew a bit about the sport. And Mikey would do something and he'd say, how do I do this? Like, what do I do here? And I just kept, it was kind of the cycle of, well, you know, in tennis, it's kind of like the same thing that we do in tennis. And then something else would come up. What do I do here? Well, you know, in tennis, we have this, it's kind of like the same thing in Disc Golf. And then what am I doing here? Well, it's kind of just like in tennis when we do this. So I took, I was able to take the coaching eye that I developed some in tennis and I started seeing things in Disc Golf. This is a very truncated version of the story. But I had a channel when I was at the tail end of my collegiate career with Hunter Thomas from Foundation, where we had a video and I'm not going to name the channel because it's very cringy for me to look back on. I could name it, but I'm not. So where we specifically said, I specifically said, I won't put that on Hunter. I specifically said, this is not a channel for a technique. And now I've got a channel that is mostly known for technique. And then there was some other, some other interesting points of where he ran into Paul at a Chipotle and said, I love me, Paul. I want to. Yeah. I just basically that. I want to film and edit, I love to film and edit, I love to film and edit something for you. Yeah. And Paul was like, sure, like I'm filming the vlog because they were doing Goliath. And so I'll let him tell that part of the story if you want it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is crazy. So basically I had no intentions of doing anything long term like video wise with Josh. I had intentions of showing Paul that I could do disc off content because my goal at the time was to be his videographer. I was like, how sick would that be, all his videographer because I was doing freelance videography and stuff at the time. I was like, I could probably get into disc off content, it could look pretty good. And at that time I didn't have any disc off content. So Josh, Josh said, well, hey, you know, I've got some ideas, you know, form video or I think our first video was more like decision making. But you had a video idea. I remember the, actually the very first time we filmed, we filmed a video that I don't even know where that is. It ended up making on the channel, but it's because I sent it to Paul and Hannah and I got feedback on it. And so then we went and reshot it with the feedback, I think. I think that's how it went anyways. All that to say, the Paul thing did not work out at the time, turns out like a year after that, I ended up getting the opportunity doing some videography for Paul. Was that like two years ago? I can't even remember. It was two years ago. Like two and a half basically. Yeah. But the demo content, we ended up putting up on Overthroad. We came up with like the channel name, Overthroad Disc Golf. It was really Josh, it came up with it and it's a funny story. We also won't go to there. But yeah. And so that's how it started was okay. Basically after a couple of videos we put up on the channel. It started doing well enough where it really sparked my interest. I was like, wait a second, this is naturally gaining traction, which was something that I was not used to for any like, I'm sure we all had like random YouTube channels that never did well. I'm sure, I think Josh had one, I've had a few, Ben, I don't know if you're the same way where you had like a random channel, it didn't do well. But that's kind of what I expect. Is that the case for you? Did you have a channel? You have a bunch of channels, different channels that you know, haven't done other than in disc golf. Right. Yeah. So for me I was thinking during that time I knew that you wanted, I was hoping that Paul would kind of drag his feet enough for long enough that the videos that I knew, I mean, I knew that we could put out better videos in disc golf and a lot of ways to what was out there because I had seen the instruction that was out there. So I was hoping, okay hopefully we get enough of these videos in and like I was like pushing to get these things filmed and I was scripting and trying to make videos that I thought, okay, they might do well to hook Mikey earlier than hopefully Paul would hook him. That was my, my secret desire and then there is no reach back like the third video or whatever it was. Was. Did well enough. Let's put it that way. Did well enough. And I was like, you know, go like if you want to be an employee for Paul, like I get that. But if you want to own in half of this company, that's also there. So yeah, so I'm on 50/50 and on overthrow and it's the best decision I ever made besides, you know, a couple of other ones. I was like, which one's going to be slow? Right. I got to be careful with what I say. It's like, man, let's just say it was a really good decision. How about that? And we don't have to go saying it's the best all the time. Yeah, it's a good decision. So let's just go off of this, this partnership. What exactly is each of your roles in overthrow? I coach, I come up with most of the content ideas. There's not a bunch of our stuff that's really like Josh only does this. Mikey only does this. But kind of the big things is obviously I don't, well, I'm bleeding into your roles, but I don't add it. I don't do the videography. He does that kind of stuff. I do the coaching, though he has a coaching background, so you'll see videos pop up from time to time. He's more than capable of coaching. So he could lead into that side more if you wanted to. Yeah, and yeah, that's basically all I do is I coach and I. Coach. I do that. Yeah, that's all he does. He spends so many hours coaching and it's ridiculous. And yeah, as he said, I do. So basically how our roles work is Josh is our product for overthrow and I am the marketer. So anything having to do with marketing, at least the actual marketing visuals, the editing, like I work on website for us, I work on designs, anything kind of visual or creative is what I really love doing, I feel like I'm good at. And I just highlight Josh's coaching and it works really well. There is some, again, like you're saying, there's some crossover. So there are times where Josh and I will work, they're like, oh, this would be a cool idea. Oh, this is a cool idea. And then try finding kind of the middle of both of our creative visions. So it's good. Yeah. Some of my favorite videos are the really collaborative, like Josh comes up with the script and then I can kind of visualize the B-roll and piece and all that together because it gives me some creative freedoms in the video side of things, but it works really well. I feel like we've got our lanes and we've got the things that we're really good at. And there's some crossover whenever we're feeling like, hey, I kind of want to do, you know, Josh comes up with a video idea and comes up with a script and it's like, okay, I like it. Let's do it. And then same thing. It's like, hey, Josh, you did this thing that really helped with my nose angle. And so, you know, I'd love to share that in a very me way where I can just basically show it to them quickly because when something clicks with me, it's like, I don't have a lot of words for it, it's just tell people about the thing that clicked and maybe it helps someone else. Yeah. Like the grip pressure, you thought bigger grip, pressure, men more nose down turns out. You duped yourself. Dude. That's funny. I'm looking back on that. I've actually got some, I haven't even talked with Josh, but I've got some good ideas on what actually, after doing a ton of tech dis work, some really good ideas on why I was able to throw further with a tighter grip, but basically it was, as may as well say it, it's, I was able to keep the spacing here. When I tighten my muscles, I don't dip my elbow as much. And so I kept a cleaner pocket while, while tensing up the grip. And so all of my form work now has kind of, I've noticed when I tense up my shoulder and I tense up here and I keep it away, and I don't dip my elbow as much and that's, that's been super, super key. So interesting that you bring that up because I was thinking about that recently. That's all I think about. Nose angle. That's all you think. That's right. Hey, I know you're a big form work guy. All right. I remember our, our texts. Yeah. It's funny. I just recorded my other podcast, Funzi, and we were talking about form for like 30 minutes. And then we were talking about this golf coaching, 30 minutes, and you guys were, were mentioned. So it's just, it's just kind of funny how like this was not the plan, but like, we just ran a talk about form and then coach and now I'm interviewing you guys five minutes after we had that discussion about coaching, which we will get into the, some of the topics that we talked about, but just before we get into that, tell, is this your full time, both of your full time jobs? And if so, just take us through kind of your day to day and the pros and cons, like the, the things you've liked the most from kind of taking this leap, sorry, you guys are full time. I, I'm like, I'm a preface in the question, but I guess I had to say that first before the pros and cons of like what the benefits of taking this leap to go full time and this up and then the things you kind of miss or that have been kind of a little tougher. Yeah. So I wanted to go full time after we got back from the Simon trip a couple of years ago and Simon, by the way, said something to, he was like, when you guys hit 50,000 subs, then you can go full time, I was like, I would literally die because I was already directing at a country club, working a cajillion hours, doing the work of like three people was not super fun, although I love coaching, obviously, but I wanted to take that dive how many years ago that was, but yeah. So it went full time when the income was enough to fairly comfortably sustain mic and my paycheck. And we had so little overhead back then, because we were just working out of our houses instead of this office. So yeah, we went full time, obviously made a bigger push for more lessons to increase that increase the income so we can start doing more things. Obviously, we have a store now, we have a, we have this whole set up, so that takes money. For me, it was never a question of wanting to go full time or not, because I knew basically that the situation that I was getting into at the country club that I was working at was I saw it, you know, six months before it happened and I thought, if my boss leaves, I'm going to be director and then I'm going to be direct to the owner and I have no desire to be in that much interaction with that person. And so that's actually part of why I thought overthrow was a good push at the time, because I kind of saw the writing on the wall and wanted an exit strategy out of my old job. So yeah, if we were just running a tennis club, it would have been great, but yeah. So full time lessons, my days look a little bit different each day, but I've got a, I've got availability. I work when I teach lessons when people are off work, right, because I'm coaching a sport, which people do in their spare time. So for example, I will start coaching today at 4 p.m. Eastern time and I'll finish about 8.30 tonight, Wednesdays, I'll coach all day. I don't know why Wednesdays are popular, but I'll go from 7 a.m. to 8.30 p.m. often. And then we have our filming days, Tuesdays and Thursdays, and then that's kind of a catch all for other work as well. Some logistical things, some planning, Friday nights and Saturdays I coach. And yeah, we're working in more clinics here and there because the summer months slow down a little bit as people are competing. They are doing less lessons because form work will screw up your aim and stuff like that sometimes. So people tend to just come to me sometimes for form work. I do have students who go through the whole season and we're able to talk about post-op on tournaments and things like that, which I think is more beneficial, but it's just not as popular in disc golf yet. So that's kind of day to day. We've got our shop, Dakota handles that and railing things out and we run a tournament or two every month. But that's all on Dakota's plate, basically. We just discuss things here and there. Let's see, the downsides for running your own business are nothing compared to the upsides of running your own business. You get to call the shots, it's all kind of on you, which is scary because if things aren't working then it's probably your fault. But it was never really going to work out for me, I think, to be working under someone else. I can do it. If I had to do it, I could do it, but I want to be able to have a vision and the resources to put that in place, whereas at the Country Club, I've got these ideas, but there's always this management law that you're running through. Can we just do cool stuff without all of the politics here? So now we just don't have to do any of the bell work, just the stuff that doesn't matter if it's stupid and it doesn't help the business, we just don't do it. If it's fun and it helps the business, we do it. It's very simple, it's a much more enjoyable work environment for me now. We get to play Halo on that. Offscreen is our golf simulator/home entertainment system. It's a lot of things to us. I'm pretty much with Josh, almost verbatim. I think the nice thing is with my skill set, if I ever need to be, really the biggest issue would be money. So if you're the type of person that is like, I want to have a solid income and it's like I can't live without my 50,000 a year, well then you're not going to be able to make YouTube work for a long time. But for us, it's like he's crazy good with money and so he makes it work because he's super frugal. I've got a wife who works full time, we don't have any kids, so the season that we're in allowed me to go full time earlier and honestly, even if my wife stopped working, I could always do part time things with the skills that I have as a freelancer, creative basically. So it's not too much of a risk for me to be full time overthrow and I'm very used to generating my own income, because that's all pretty much all I've ever made is 1099 income. So it's generating generating my own income is super normal to me. It was here. Oh. Oh, can you get him to the other door? Hey, we're back. Dude, I was hoping it was like, like, Paul McBeth himself, it's like, you know. Yeah, Aaron Berlin, don't you know? Yeah. Aaron Berlin. I know that guy. Yeah. Aaron. The Berlin wall, baby. That's what we call them back in the day. Berlin wall. That's great. So yeah, thanks for going into that. That was really some really good insight and hopefully anyone listed has got some cool kind of motivation to maybe go for your own goals in business, because I'm the same way as you Josh, kind of just like, I knew I never really wanted to work under anyone directly, I guess, like in a corporate setting, obviously, like owned and busy at the manage relationships. It was kind of the same thing, but I knew that from the start. So that's why I started a tax store in the expos and all that. So it's been, it's cool to kind of like, you know, we were late with that full time in dg. So there's many coaches out there and for disc golf and, you know, some might be great. Some might not be great. Some might just be like making it for views, stuff like that where I'm going with this is, how do you try and separate yourself from these other coaching channels or coaches or is it more like a collaborative effort where it's just like, okay, this guy has some good stuff, but also like, we'll add on more here. I guess what are you trying to do differently to that basically want to say why should people choose overthrow as opposed to, you know, someone else for their coaching? One of the chances, right? It's inside joke at this point, hopefully. So, it's a Berlin. Yeah, you take this one. Yeah. So I have a couple of comments. Yeah, I don't know that you should pick me as a coach per se. I don't think that I'm the right coach for everyone. The goal is not for me to be the best coach, right? I can't be the best coach for every person, right, because every person thinks a little bit differently, every person has ways that they understand things differently. So the way that I naturally explain things is going to resonate with some people more than others. And it's not my job at all. I would hate to try to convince somebody who understands from someone other than myself, well, they don't know what they're talking about, you should listen to me, right? That's not my goal. I have more of kind of an abundance mindset that's packaged and got like a lot of negative connotations to it as well, so don't take that with all those. It's just I don't think that I've got to get all the students I can get. I've got to get them all, like they all need to come to me, right? There are always going to be more students. There are always going to be people who need help. And if I'm their guy, I'm their guy, I'm going to do the best I can with whoever it is. So it's, it doesn't matter to me if they go to me, if they go to sea bass or if they go to blitz or if they go to sling shot or if they go to Robbie or whoever. It doesn't, it doesn't matter that much to me. I want them to go to a coach and be committed to that coach and go be a good student. And the fact of the matter is even some of these coaches that I disagree with fundamentally on technical aspects with, which are not mini coaches that we have like big, huge disagreements. But where we disagree fundamentally on aspects, that coach can probably still do good things for that student. So I want to be very careful when I'm going through especially content pieces where it's this person says this, this person says this, here's where I'm at. I want it to be very clear that they're not personal attacks. It's this theoretically does not make sense. This is not what's happening. This is the idea. I don't agree with that. If you agree with that idea that this other person's teaching, go to them. Don't waste your time in coming to me because I'm going to teach you what I see and what I believe. And of course, I would like for everything that I say to be in line with what's actually happening. But of course, I'm going to be wrong at times. So my goal is just to increase my knowledge so that I can accurately communicate in a way that gets the student to do the right thing. So you have to have coaching is about communicating knowledge in a way that gets the student to improve and do the right things, whatever way that is. And everybody communicates a little differently. So I don't have a pitch of come to me over so-and-so. If you're working through this and you think I can help you and you need help, I'm here. So no hard selling here. I did a sale. I had sales in my background and hated it. I was very depressed for a long time with hard sales techniques and it's just so annoying. I don't think coaching has a place for that. So you always want what's best for the student. Sometimes that's not you as a coach. Yeah. So it's funny because so Josh is probably all the way on the, you know, you can get coaching from anyone. I'm definitely a little bit more stingy than not, again, I've got a coaching background and I definitely, if Josh comes up with something that doesn't make sense to me, I fight really hard against someone. Like I, we've had some conversations that have lasted hours because he has filmed something or he had this idea and this belief on form and I've like really pushed back against it. And funny enough, the things that I was like super critical of ended up being, it was just down the road. I was able to figure out that it was the best thing for what my goal was, which was increasing my speed. And yeah, so I'm a bit more critical of coaches and I think most people are. I do. I like where Josh comes from. It's nice. We actually came from like at our country club in tennis. There were three of us coaching. So it was the head pro and we were the assistant pros. And I liked what we had going, which was, hey, you just kind of find out who is not the right person for you to coach. And you just know, like, okay, as much as I'd love to be everyone's coach because I'd be rich or whatever, it's like you just end up finding out that you can't be everyone's coach. Different personalities, just like Josh was saying. And there's just going to be people who resonate with Josh's intricate, like very, he's got a really good knowledge of what's actually happening and he communicates all of it. And then I was like, okay, I just like being fun and simple. So that was my coaching style. As fun as possible, right, I want to keep your kid involved in tennis. I want you to love tennis like I love tennis and I don't know why everything works, but I'll show you something that works, right? And I was able to coach them that way. And then Peter had his own way of coaching as well. And so I was like, okay, you'd probably do well with Peter. You want a really good workout, Peter's your guy. So and he had some of that mental game, like he actually did have a professional tennis background. So he could give some of those higher end players something that, you know, neither Josh or I could give them. Anyways, all that to say, that's something you have to take into account. You can't be everyone's coach. And so that's why we need more coaches in disc golf. We need a lot more and that's one of our biggest goals is to equip more coaches and get more people out there coaching who have a good understanding of the game and hopefully develop their own coaching styles so that everyone's got a coach available, right? And then other coaches can make a good living in the sport. That's going to be huge. Yeah, you'd mentioned that there are a lot of disc golf coaches and I've thought that before, but every time I go to list them, there's not that many. Right. I know probably all of them. Yeah. I'm like, oh, how many coaches there? Oh, well, let me see who's in this camp who thinks this way and thinks that way. And then I write it down. It's like 10 names. Right. Total. Like there's just not that many coaches. So yeah, but it is nice to be able to do what we did like in the old days because I used to, you know, you're sitting at the desk in the country club office and you're just, oh, so and so, hey, I want to take tennis lessons. It's like, okay, what are you telling me a little bit about your goals? Okay. I want this. Okay. Well, how do you, and you get some people, it's like, what do you respond well to? What do you want out of a coach? You know, within reason. So you're just trying to kind of figure out a little bit and it's just, they're like, uh, well, you know, my daughter, she hasn't really played a sport before. So I just, okay. So probably someone fun, right? And it'd be like, well, I'm going to try to get you in with Mikey. Tell me sometimes you're available. Boom. Right. Or, yeah, I'm really lazy. I just need someone like to be on my tail. And my, you know, my parent was a, you know, military, whoever, just like light me up. It's like, all right. Peter, it is then. It is. Yeah. Uh, or I'm an engineer. Okay. I'm your guy. Here we go. Yeah. It's just. Yeah. So you can always find a good fit. And there was all, there were always people calling. Right. So. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, those, those are really good answers. And that's kind of in the podcast I was recording previous, that's kind of what I was saying as well. Just like some things are going to make sense and not make sense to you that another coach might say differently, but it's kind of the same essence in that, uh, any, I even said, like, you know, I've watched you guys, um, for a while, but I, I would watch one of your videos and be like, like, this doesn't make sense. And then, uh, six months later, oh, this is what he meant by, by that. So it is really tricky because form is, you can say the right things, but it's really just a feeling thing. And if you're not getting that feeling, um, it's, you know, it's difficult to kind of like understand what's, what's, uh, going on. So I, I have a question. This kind of came up and, and earlier in our other podcast. So what do you have to say to people, um, because I'm sure there's a conversation you've had a lot of, and I know if you've addressed, but to people who say, why should we listen to this coach? And I'm, doesn't get to be the, you guys, if he's doesn't have a good form, if he's not highly rated, um, if he just doesn't, isn't good at this golf, why should we listen to a person that isn't a thousand plus rated? Um, let me start, let me start. Uh, so I, I grew up taking lessons, tennis, tennis lessons, and, uh, I took lessons from a coach that was extremely, extremely, uh, he was a student of the sport. And he really did nothing of, uh, notoriety in the tennis, uh, in the tennis realm. And but he was always like looking at slow motion form. He's doing stuff that other coaches were not doing. And I loved him and I progressed like crazy with him. I started late, like late, late, uh, I think I started competitive tennis at 12 or 13. And in tennis, that's like basically, hey, you know, you're just going to play high school. And, uh, yeah. So I was able to witness, I even worked underneath him as able to witness his dedication, uh, and because of the way that he, uh, understood things so well, he was able to communicate well to me. And, uh, it was just a really good experience and some other coaches in the area were trying to steal me away from him, uh, because they said, hey, you know, he's, I'm a pro at some really annoying coaches that were very well established, like well known, uh, and they're like, hey, well, if you want to get to the next level, well, then you come, you come get coaching with me because, you know, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never been played on tour. And I always, I had such a negative experience with that. Uh, some people don't have that negative experience. They just buy straight into, oh yeah, yeah, he's never, he's never, uh, been on the pro tour. And, but at, by that point, I've already progressed so much that I could tell immediately, I was like, that's, that's dumb. No. He's a great coach. I'm doing, uh, I'm doing really well and, uh, at this point, it's just the amount of effort I put in that I'm going to get out. So I'm really, I look back on that and think about our situation and, uh, it's a good perspective to have, uh, because people who cares how good they did on tour, who cares, who cares how far they throw, right? If they can't get you to do that, then they are not a good coach. If they can't get you to do it, it doesn't matter what they can do. It's what it's what your coach can get you to do. Uh, so I'm super passionate about it and, uh, and you know what? The funny thing is, is Josh keeps it super low key on our channel, but I'm not even going to go there. Not even going to go there. But anyways, Josh has progressed like crazy with his own coaching methods. I progress like crazy. So if you do go by those standards, which are not good standards, then, uh, then we've, we've hit those standards too, but it doesn't matter for some people. It's, it's, it's this like, uh, well, who do I listen to? Listen to the person that gets you results. That's proven that they can get people results or, hey, maybe they've not had any results because they haven't coached anyone. And then, uh, and then they slowly produce results with their, with their students. But even then, maybe it's not the right coach for you as we list, as we said, you know, but if a coach is, is coaching and they're not producing any results, I'd say there's not many coaches out there that won't produce any results, but you do as a student, uh, you just have to figure out, hey, is this working after give it a good go, give it a good go. Right? For some people, that's three months. For some people at six months, some people, that's a year and, uh, dedication is going to, is going to do a lot for you, but if you, if you put in the time and, uh, and you're not progressing, okay, maybe you've got a valid excuse of maybe my coach is not the right coach for me, but go ahead, Josh, he's passionate. Yeah, I think the evaluating after six months is a great, like that's a good, I don't think if you're a student and you're under a coach right now and it's been six months and there are no results and you've been getting it, it's not like, oh, I haven't been practicing or I practice, you know, twice between, I practice once a week, like if you're getting it and it's been six months and nothing has improved, your form hasn't improved, your distance hasn't improved, your rating hasn't improved, whatever metric you're going after. Um, after six months, okay, then have a conversation with your coach would be the best way to do this and say, hey, I'm really just not improving and I want to know what it is, because as a student, that's the thing is there's, uh, you don't know as a student, right? And it's, it's a fair question to ask how do I know that the person I'm signing up to get lessons from knows what they're talking about, right? In other sports and tennis, there's a, oh, this guy's a certified teaching pro, right? Not a certified player, but a certified teaching pro. So we have that on the sports, we don't have that yet in disc golf, so I try to be, uh, which is kind of difficult for me sometimes, but I try to be, uh, empathetic to the question being asked, um, because some people just don't know, it's like, for me, it's a question of what do you want? Who do you want teaching you? What do you value in a coach? Do you value a player who coaches part time or do you value a coach who plays part time? So like if you want me to be a good player, I'm going to be a worse coach. I just can't improve both at the same rate at the same time. So, um, you do have to look, I think at results, which, uh, you have personal stories, I'm sure you could go on, on Reddit or something in post, hey, you know, does, does anybody work with the overthrow? Has anybody worked with so and so other results? Did it work out and did they help you improve, right? Those are fair questions, I think, to ask and probably that's the best venue that people have. I mean, not necessarily Reddit being the best venue, but some sort of feedback loop there. And I do, I mean, we've been doing this long enough that we should really create some sort of something for our own channel where they're saying like testimonials or something, but it's so easy not to do that because I don't know, I'm working with people day in day out and I'm seeing it personally all the time. So it's not really a question there for me. I think at the end of the day, the good product, right, the good coaching survives and thrives. That's what happens and as much as you hate to, it's like for me, I can really disagree with what Slingshot does, but he's producing some results. I'm telling you right now that if he wasn't producing some results with his students and progressing them, then he would not have the following that he does, right? Again, I disagree with a bunch of stuff that he coaches. I also used to make form changes along the lines of what he's coached, and I did see some progression. So I had to go through basically, hey, I'm going to try both, I'm going to try everything. I'm just going to be a guinea pig, which I love. I love that because if I think of it, yeah, it's like you, I know you're the same way. If you've tried something and you see the results, you're like, oh, I'm going to go down this road, like I'm going to try to max this out. But that's the thing, again, comes down to results. Any good business, if the product's bad, no matter how good your marketing is, you're not going to get success. There's just no way at some point people are going to find out you're scamming them, right? Because at that point, you've got really good marketing, a bad product, and you're trying to oversell this thing, and it's going to cave in at some point. So it doesn't last forever. There's no way that a bad product does well over a long period of time. Yeah. Do we answer the question? Was that answered? Bars. Yeah. Bars. Yeah, you guys, you guys didn't answer it. And yeah, I had the same sentiment as you, you know, if you can be a player and a coach. But obviously if you, you know, I'd rather a coach that's focusing on coaching than getting better at, you know, tournaments or trying to play, you know, obviously there's a M and a flow. But like you said, if you're studying coaching every day, well, someone's practice put and, you know, one's going to be, you know, the coaching is obviously going to be the same as like the practice putting, but if you're kind of digging that time up, then, you know, the coaching might not be as, uh, basically as, as fast as if you just focused on just coaching or practice putting all the time, you know, you end up being a better butter. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, that was honestly, you guys did, that was an awesome interview and I really appreciate you coming up and I hope anyone listening to this, um, kind of got some valuable knowledge about kind of just coaching and informing about these guys. They have their own YouTube, uh, so any last shout outs that you guys want to give before I, I let you go subscribe to Ben Kenny's podcast and this is this golf daily. So it's, uh, really, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's, uh, we got Steve, Brian, Seth, Seth Fenley, Brian, Wolf and Steve Dodge, Oh, oh, well, subscribe to disc golf daily, Ben Kenny edition. All right. So, I'm glad to my YouTube just non-disciplinary, you know, don't know who this Seth guy is, but yeah, come on. Seth, Ben, you got to subscribe for Ben, right? All right. God, subscribe Ben. Yes. Um, and subscribe to overthrow. Go check out. They have a ton of content. If you want to elevate your game and if you want to get to the point where, uh, you know, you're actually serious about this, you know, hit up Josh. I'm sure you have lessons open if that's the route you want to go. So, uh, hit him up. Um, thanks guys. Appreciate it. This has been this golf daily daily daily daily Thank you so much for watching. Please like, subscribe, comment and share. It really does help us grow. [inaudible] (upbeat music) (gentle music)