These Football Times
The Mount Rushmore Debates: FA Cup
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Lob, your home of in-depth coverage and analysis by these football times, a movement of journalism you can trust. Each week, we endeavor to bring you the very best coverage of the game, exploring stories from the past and present, with analysis by expert guests from around the world. Find more about award-winning content online and in print. In the meantime, enjoy the podcast. - Hi, and welcome to another edition of The Lob Podcast from these football times. My name is Greg Dithaka, and we're back with another visit to the Matt Rushmore debating call. In this episode, we're focusing the FA Cup of an wide sweep of options ranging from the first tournament in 1872, right up to the current date. The advocates are submitted in order preference list of three options for each of the categories of goalkeeper, defender, and fielder, forward, and coach. I've declared them into a final list to avoid duplication, and to the larger side, the guys have not only looked so to relatively contemporary timers, but also cast their nets back into the early years of competition. Each advocate will have three minutes to make their pitches to the judge, that's me, and I'll decide who has delivered the most convincing argument for Swadi and me to declare them their selection as the most worthy only of players on this particular Matt Rushmore. At this stage, only I know which players and managers each advocate has been allocated from their initial selections, or will be revealed in good time, but I'm allowed to say that there's a bit of feuds, wide inclusions, and perhaps some supplies and emissions too. A few things worth noting before we start. Firstly, I'm delighted to confirm that each of the advocates have their first choice selections across all five categories. So gentlemen, no excuses. Secondly, only one player featured across all three advocate selections, but only one selecting as their first choice. Finally, when a player's been selected by more than one advocate, between different positions, the Matt Rushmore did buy conventions to rule out that play from both advocates. In this episode, however, the play is selected, both as defender and a forward, had played in lots of positions. So after little research, I decided that because he played every position, it simply accepted the goal key, but he was therefore accepted as one of the advocates' first choice. So anyway, that's enough for the preamble. Let's get down to it and introduce our advocates. In alphabetical order, first we have TFTs, very Northeast Correspondents, a Newcastle fan, who has never forgiven me for selecting Penenka above the teeny. It's Aidan Williams. No one from your first choice selection, Aidan, from your area, will you avoid any conflict of interest, buddy? (laughing) - Well, there's some from my area, Gary, just not necessarily playing in black and white. - Yes, true. - So we'll get to that. So yeah, we will get to that. I did have other black and white ones further on my list anticipating alternative options, but you know, I'm happy with what I've gone for. I'm slightly in trepidation of what some others might have gone for, but you know, they will get all abuse that they deserve. - Sitting the scene there for an over-the-top tackle on the thigh high tackle, oh, it studs up in a lot sort of thing. Secondly, an advocate, a regular advocate's role, and the man who has a well-known reputation for his left field selections, this debates, Dave Bowler. Dave, I know who you've selected, and I know you wouldn't have scored that rapper, gay and buddy, haven't you? - Thank you very much. And none of them are as good as Penenco, versus Petini, obviously, but-- - Good man. We try, we try. - Good man. Finally, competitive three arguments, it's TFT's own football hipster, Stevie Scrag. Plenty of research going to this one, Stevie, and a little like Aiden's approach, I know that all the 80 men submitted by you, only one was Anvil Riddler related. - Indeed, indeed. You know, I could have gone for A-Climbin's as Miguel Keyfers and normally do with these Mount Rushmore episodes. - You do? - You know, quite, quite. So, but, you know, I resisted the urge to do so. The one other field player kind of like makes total sense. You know, I grew up with the FA Cup being, you know, the one trophy that kind of like, other teams are allowed to win during the 1980s. Well, we won everything else, basically. So, yeah, I just felt I should have, you know, I have to kind of like, subscribe to that. The FA Cup is for everyone kind of vibe. We're just waiting to, we're just waiting 'til the pit peninsula later on. (laughing) - Aiden, you're never gonna be able to forget this, matey. You know what, don't you, over. - Well, thank you. - The outcry on it, I think, is coming from across the board and it just shows that I was right all along. - Just for the record, the judges never wrong. (laughing) - We don't have any contempt of court, so we're not gonna spill that. Anyway, okay, let's get the ball out of the kickabouts. I want to go for Christian Rams off, basically. So, Aiden, and you can't choose between these gold people. But let's say, you know, in the FA Cup, across those years, right in '72 to where we are now, tell me your gold keeper is, you have three minutes starting now. - Great FA Cup tales are all about the backstory and not many have a story quite like that of Bert Troutman. With a stint in the Hitler youth in their formative years, followed by action as a paratrooper and winning an iron cross on the Eastern Front, as well as the FA Cup. Later reassigned in the ward of the Western Front, he was one of only a few survivors of a huge bombing raid, went AWOL to escape the horrors, got captured, escaped, got captured again, before seeing out the war in a POW camp in Lancashire. He played outfield in the regular camp football matches, only going in goal initially because he got injured and couldn't run. But he obviously did all right though, because from that day on he was always in goal. Now, unusually, I guess he opted to stay in Lancashire after his release in 1948, combining working on a farm with disposing of bombs in the heightened area of Merseyside and playing in goal for St. Helens Town in the Liverpool Combination League. He helped them to their first ever trophy in 1949 and also helped themselves to the club's secretary's daughter, who he later married. But later that year, now aged 26, his reputation was such that top-flight man City took him on in a rather controversial move. Obviously, signing a former German paratrooper caused a little bit of a sternly received relentless abuse everywhere he went. But he soon silenced the skeptics becoming one of the best keepers in England. His ability to throw the ball out accurately, rather than just who fit as far as possible, as was the norm at the time, was crucial to City's rather progressive possession-based style. It took them to the FA Cup final, two years running in 1955 and '56. In 1955, they were outdone and out-classed, here's the Newcastle reference Gary, by Jackie Milburn and Newcastle United. Cup Kings of the time, conceding after only 45 seconds as City lost. But a year later, they were back. And in Troutman, they now had the reigning football writers' player of the year in 1956. Against Birmingham City, they were the better team in that final, going 3-1 up in the second half. But then, and here we go, in the 75th-minute Troutman dive for a ball, and was knocked out in a collision with Birmingham's Peter Murphy, taking a whack in the neck. No subs in those days, of course. So we have a dazed and confused Troutman playing on, despite being clearly rather unsteady on his feet. In the remaining minutes of that game, he made several key saves as Man City held onto win, making him the hero of the day. As he got his medal, Prince Philip commented on how crooked his neck appeared, and that evening's winner's banquet, he was unable to even move his head, with a broken neck only confirmed a few days later. Quite how he kept his life intact is astonishing enough, let alone how he managed to keep City's goal intact in those final minutes. As legendary FA Cup moments go, I think that one is hard to top. I don't care what these other goalkeepers may have done. None of them played, starring role in FA Cup win in quite such incredible circumstances. - Interesting idea of the guys go, but as for timing mate, it's too many 57.86 seconds. That's perfect timing. It's interesting that you, I mean, I don't know if you intentionally did, dazed and confused was a track on a Led Zeppen LP, which led to the set, well, war. Is that intentional or was that just a... - That was clearly sublime role, it must have been in there somewhere. - Yeah, go, buddy, there you go. I mean, it's great. - Extra points for that though. - Well, let's steady on there, steady on. (laughing) That's all for basically Dave at your next. And, you know, throughout these first choices, there's a number of players who are locked up, I thought, who, typical left field dive, you pick one of those, and where you go, buddy? - I think the FA Cup is the greatest competition of the lot. I think that's what football is all about, the FA Cup. And so for these, I've tried to pick players who are iconic in one way or another. And it's sort of richly ironic that the goalkeeper, Jim Sanders, will always be remembered for an attack of nerves. And May the 1st, 1954, West Brom were tried in 2-1 to breast him in the FA Cup final and got a penalty. And that led to the, perhaps one of the most famous photographs in all football history. It's of the full length of the Wembley pitch, taken from the one end, looking towards Ronnie Allen striking the ball, but it closest to the camera, there's Jim Sanders, the goalkeeper, clutching the post, looking the other way, can't bear to watch any of the action. And if you only knew Sanders from that picture, you'd think he was the highly strong type, prone to attacks of the vapors, but that couldn't be further from the truth. He started his career at Charlton in 1939, and then, rather more important, Matt has come to the fore, and he joined the RAF for the Second World War. You know, 120 flights as a gunner, before he was seriously injured on an operational flight, which led him to be invalidated out of the services. And his injuries were so severe, to his neck and to his back, that he seemingly would never play again. Except he did, because he was going to become a centre forward, and he scored 50 goals in the season, for Charlton in the reserves, before deciding that he was going to stick to goalkeeping instead, went back to playing in goal, and then moved to the album in November 1945. And basically, from there, exchanged the place with normal eating goal. Ironically, Sanders was out of the team in 53-54, until they were being played at Sunderland about six weeks from the end of the season, at which point, Norm and Ethan, diving at somebody's feet, got a kick to the neck, and never played again. Sanders was put back into the team, and went on, and won the cup with Albion in that game in 54. But I think it just sums up what the FA Cup is, how much it means the significance of the final, what it represents in a player's career. There have felt it had been in the RAF in World War II, 120 bombing missions. A ray of gunner, you know, at the sharp end of the plane, but at the end of the plane, where they were a lot more likely to get eaten. Went through all of that, went through injuries that could have finished his career, and still, when a penalty was taken, the one thing that he couldn't do was look at a penalty being taken. That's the FA Cup for you. - And, you know, as I said, Dave, when I saw this nine crumple, I thought, when I looked at the story, I thought, "Well, I mean, how have I never heard of this guy before?" But I thought, "I want sort of dealt to it, "because I want to hear the dive bowl of pitch, "because it's going to be brilliant." And of course it was. - Thank you. - Another great left-field selection dive being brilliant. Steve A, I'm going to come to you next, Billy. And we've had two different, different, but sort of other similar era descriptions of a goalkeeper. He was just a little bit more, well, not talk to him today, but a little more contemporary, a little less second world boy, shall we say. - Steve, where you go? - Yeah, my goal, keep straddles, the black and white and color aeress. I've gone for the man with the shovels for hands. Pat Jennings, the man who could be, I don't know, he could be a cartoon character in this. There were an arch enemy of Billy the Fish. Pat the shovel, no, Pat the shovels with his massive hands. You know, it's that crossing of the divide to win the FA Cup in a Tottenham shirt and then go and do it an Arsenal after being, you know, shown the door by Tottenham. You know, he wanted to stay. You know, the directors weren't for it. They didn't even have the dignity to, you know, give him a significant farewell at Tottenham. You know, he walked across the car park at White Art Lane, the electric node as he got into his car. You know, many, many clubs were interested in Pat Jennings and he had the balls to say, I'm gonna stick in North London. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Arsenal of all teams. 'Cause he didn't want to move his family. He was happy where he was. Kids were settled. He's been, you know, ditched by Tottenham. Why shouldn't he walk across, you know, over to his lint and join Arsenal? We subsequently went on to reach three successive FA Cup finals with, you know, winning, winning, probably what was meant to be the most difficult of the three in defeating Manchester United in, in dramatic circumstances. Having bookended that with, I think, two of the most iconic FA Cup final defeats against Ipswich Town and West Ham United. You know, winning with Tottenham in 1967, 13 years separated first and last FA Cup final on a playing basis. Yet there was another, you know, a facet to Pat Jennings in the FA Cup when Neville Southall picked up a serious slagging, serious break on duty for Wales in the '85, '86, and it brought Bobby Mims into play. And with very little in the way of experience cover for a goalkeeper who wasn't particularly experienced himself, Fred Barber, the rubber face man, was the next in line, how a candle turned to Pat Jennings to come in as cover. And he went to the 1986 final, the World Cup finals as an Everton player. There's plenty of pictures of him at Wembley that day in an Everton blazer. Any mishap in the days prior to the 1986 FA Cup final for Bobby Mims, it would have been Pat Jennings playing at Wembley that day. You know, he'd left Arsenal, ironically, to go back to Tottenham in '85, played a screen sports super cup game in a Tottenham shirt again. But Pat Jennings, from winning it with Tottenham in '67 to three finals in succession with Arsenal to his association with Everton '86. He's the man of FA Cup finals. Arrived only by Ray Clemens, I will tell you. Guys, I don't think you'll see this clock here, it says. Two minutes, 59.56 seconds. Steve, I don't view your time in it, mate. If you will, you've been nailed up differently. That's terrific. OK, guys, so, OK, give me some thinking time. I want to hear what you think about in the two selections rather than your own guy. So, hey, I'm coming to you first. You've got a guy fairly contemporary to your selection, Jim Sanders, and the story that Dave told. And then perhaps more well-known Pat Jennings. How do you think most? Well, Jim Sanders seemed to have an impressive military background, just like Bert Trapman. But Jim Sanders never won the Iron Cross, did he? So, you know, that's... That's when he was on the right side. But does that make the story more dramatic? I don't know on that one. Obviously, I also knew nothing about him. So, it was really, really interesting to hear about. And really fascinating. And obviously, Dave's love for all things FA Cup is well known. So, it's a nice little way to tell that. Equally, Pat Jennings, yes, I mean, it's quite something to win it with two rival clubs. So, that's probably more familiar. So, I'd veer towards that, but I'm hesitating in it because Dave's pitch was pretty good. Yeah, he does that to me. He picks these guys, and it's a brilliant way. Dave, okay, so put your guy back into the... You wouldn't know anywhere, but it was before we heard your brilliant pitch. Trapman and Jennings, obviously two, that's the different eras and different goalkeepers' thoughts. This is really tricky because I mean, I had a chartman as one of my choices. He did, he did. And he's very close to going for him, which I wouldn't have got anyway, obviously. So, yeah, I mean, that's a fantastic story. And again, that's really FA Cup lore. But Pat Jennings was one of my favorite players as a kid. I remember buying, having bought from the Pat Jennings goalkeeping clubs, which were basically better clubs, I mean, it was a biggie, but I mean, I think... I think you've got to give it for a tournament, you know. I mean, Pat Jennings is in a brock, he's next to me for it. And that's a good thing, that's a good tip. Yeah, I mean, yeah. The staver, you were glad that a brocker's neck and never got sort of shot out of it, I mean, right as well, but which, you know, it's perhaps something not to condemn the guy for, but, you know, if he put your guy to one side... He grew up in New York, I think it was quite incendiary. - Fair comment, fair comment, Budley. But we've got Trekman and Jim Sanders, too, of a similar era. I mean, obviously, in this competition, we'd have a lot of players skimming differently, but this is too fairly, not exactly the same here, but pretty well the same thoughts on those two guys. I knew of Jim Sanders. I didn't know the full story, I knew of him because of that fascination I've got with Vic Buckingham. So, you know, I know a lot about his 1954 FA Cup went into, and yeah, you know, great story that they used to go in live, and he's filled out there for us. We've learned something tonight, very much so. And he's told the story so well that he's running birch out and very, very close in which way I would sway there, which seems absolutely insane because, you know, come on, it's birch out. You know, he played on with a broken neck. What was that program that Jad D used to be in that it was like a bit of a kind of like a comedy drama thing where he was a PE teacher, and he gets hit by a javelin, and he says, no, it's okay, I'll run it off. And you know, there's a heavy degree of birch outman to that, but you've broke your neck. Fine, I'll run it off, it'll be fine. You know, it's kind of like, it's Jimmy Byrne on acid. You know, both broken collarbones, 65 and all that type of stuff, but yeah. So by a narrow, a far narrow margin than anyone could have expected it to be. I'd have to just sway with birch outman. - Okay, so yeah, I mean, I've been listening to the sort of arguments, and it's interesting note that Haydn had birch rep in his first choice, Both Dave and Stephen had birch rep and there's their second choice. Jim Saunders, you know, come up on the rails from nowhere, I mean, yeah, so close. I think I've got to go to birch rep because of the, you know, the sort of, the story that grew up around it. And I want to put the iron crust on one side and perhaps it might be Daston Confirious and Led Zeppelin, well, right from the sun about him in the future. Oh yeah, go go to birch rep man. That was great, that was a great discussion. You know, I mean, I sort of just further dismissed pachins really quickly there, but I'd be harsh, but I think the story of birch rep man sways himself. I want to give it to birch rep man, I'm the goalkeeper. Right, so we're moving out to the penalty area, into the defence. And I want to come to you first, are you going to pick a line made to somewhere that nobody's ever heard of again, but of course you are. - Given that we're covering the whole of the FA Cup, I thought we should go back to 1872. And Major Francis Mirindin, who is the architect of Victoria Renee Sant-Man, that Michael Parley did and made a ripping yarns about him, basically. I mean, he was eating educated. He joined the Royal Engineers in 1850 role. He saw service in the Crimea, working in the same hospital as Florence Nightingale. He got a night or the laser running life for being the brains beyond installing electric lighting London. And apart from that, he had time to play a bit of football, as well. He was credited as one of the sort of founding fathers of the Royal Engineers football team, who were said to be the first to exploit the passing game in English football. A big figure in that, not just in the team, but within the organisation itself. They got to the first FA Cup final, of course, in 1872, losing to the Wanderers. Mirindin played at four back in that one. They lost again in 1874, against Oxford University, played again. 1875, the Royal Engineers carried off the Cup. Unfortunately, the Major Francis Mirindin, he wasn't played, because they were playing Old Italians. And given that he was an Old Italian himself, he decided he couldn't play against his old team, which is, you know, taking the not celebrating thing a bit too far, I think. But he refused to play, and of course, they won the Cup. Apart from playing, he was the president of the Football Association from 1874 to 1890. And he was being the right clever. He was also a referee and said to be the man with the best knowledge of the laws in the game. He refereed the Cup final in 1880, and then he did seven in a row, 1884 to 1890. My favourite of these, and I do apologise, there will be no more west property I've been referencing beyond this. In 1898, the Army implied Preston who were just about to become the invincibility. And Preston got to the Cup final, and they were in order to leave after that. And I said, they went to him and said, could we possibly be photographed with the Cup before the game? 'Cause I was so confident I was gonna be. And he said to, don't you think you better win it first? For which, you know, he was always at my eternal support. Not only that, at the end of the game, after Albin had won his army, he went into the dressing room and said, is it true that you're all Englishmen? In fact, they were all from within about 10 miles of West Brom. Once did he do that, they were all Englishmen. He allowed them. 'Cause he was allowed to keep the wall that was a referee. But learning that they were all Englishmen, he decided that he was gonna give it to the Albin to keep. Of course, we lost the bloody thing since. There we go. - There you go indeed. There you go, a typical, typical, another typical dive bowler picks there. There's a guy in the name, I hadn't heard of, and I didn't want to look at too much of the energy 'cause I wanted to know who the devs are pitching. Delivered brilliantly. I mean, what a guy, fairness. I mean, if he knows all the laws, the guy in traffic could do with him now, I don't know about some of the clowns who got refereeing games now, but so there you go. Stay if I'm gonna come to you next, and I think you sort of dip back into history as well for your going guys, where you go? - Yeah, I've gone for a Nia contemporary by the name of Arthur Knud, Lord Arthur Knud. Nine FA Cup finals, this individual played. He covered every position on the pitch. He played in goal, he played in defense. He played in midfield, played up front. A jack of all trades and a tough one at that. When played in goal in the 19, and so the 1877 FA Cup final, he reputed Billy Scorlin on goal. He had the ball in his hands, took a step back, which took himself over the goal line to give Oxford, you know, Oxford United, Oxford University a goal that was actually kind of scrubbed from history for the best part of 100 years. You know, there was a cover-up at play. I don't know whether to save his blushes on her, but the goal was kind of expunged from the record books until it was dug up again in the 1980s by the more, the advent of contemporary archives being more accessible to this goal was eventually being stated, but it just added more luster to his reputation. Now he scored in finals, he mastered midfield, but in defense, he was known as the toughest tackle of his day. Very, very fond of the concept of hacking. You know, he'd have been well at home in the 1988 Wimbledon side in that respect. A full, just beard. A man who looked like he was, you know, physically, you know, visually you look like he should be able to walk off the pitches of the FA Cup final and straight onto the fields of lords to take on the Australians in the ashes. You know, beyond that, you know, he could have been playing guitar with C6 Steve or ZZ2, you know, he would have, he would have blended into any, any landscape. I'd say he played in nine finals. He was on the winning side five times. He was a win of wondrous and the old Etonians. One of his victories, the FA Cup final, he celebrated in front of the pavilion, to stand down his head. A touch of the Bruce Crabblars about him. Clearly an eccentric, you know, score of ludicrous own goals, a hacker of opposing strikers, a goal scorer of reputes. He was a man who absolutely had everything in his armory. You know, along with his, I don't know, physical aspects. This was something in which, you know, his wife, you know, had nightmares about the prospect of him coming back from games of a broken leg. She had a concept of him coming back with a broken leg. A teammate, sorry. - Time mate, time mate, time mate. - I've got to put this in there. His teammate, his teammate turned around and said, "Well, are you not mad at him?" If he does return with a broken leg, it won't be his own. (laughing) - Shades of, what is it? Red Knapper said that eventually to do a piece, even though it was to do a piece of his wife, what was it, sorry to say to do it, it's coming out with a broken leg and his wife said, he was, you know, classic, classic. I mean, yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the Grappler of the 19th century, there's, doing handstands, we've run to the perfect way in the FA Cup. So, yeah, look, we'll solve the on goal, bit. So, Aiden, we've got basically the defenders. And by the way, a lot of Kennard is the guy who was also feet as a forward in the selection. This is a guy, I believe, as Stevie said, and I looked up, it's true. It did pay almost every position on the park. So, it would be harsh not to let him be selected. Aiden, having heard two selections going back to the 19th century, you're a little bit robbed to doubt more of today, but it wasn't the way you go, really. - I am more up to date. And no player in that whole 153 years of FA Cup history has won it as many times as this player. And that's actually Cole. Seven wins coming at two different London clubs in an era spanning a decade. I guess perhaps he was fortunate that his peak years coincided with an era where a few of the big clubs would dominate in the trophy. But that would be a little bit to downplay his significance in the Arsenal and Chelsea teams that he played in and the contribution he made to those victories. So, the first of those came in 2002 against his future club Chelsea, and then they won again the year after. This Arsenal is beating Southampton with Cole clearing Alaskas. James Beatty header off the line, deep into stoppage time to secure that win. Then, 2005, the next one they were there again, this time Cole playing a crucial role in a determined defensive performance from Arsenal as they held the attacking talents of Manchester United. This is Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Nesteroy at Al, held them at bay despite not sure I'm too much in attack themselves. So, it's one of the many big occasions, I guess, in which Ashley Cole stifled the skills of young Christiane. He then scored in the resulting penalty shootout as Arthur won. That one in particular came in the midst of various claims of tapping up by Chelsea and of Cole's complicity in that. Took another year or so. I'm kind of worried Gary, they have to be all upset. It took another year before Chelsea got a hold of him. He was soon off though to the mega wealth of West London. But the winning just carried on. It came back from injury late in that season to feature as a sub in Chelsea's win over Manchester United again in 2007. Then he was man of the match two years later in the 2009 Cup final win over Everton, another magnificent display from him. Now, this made him the first player since the 19th century to win it five times. That is Lord Kanner as we've just been hearing about. But Ashley Cole went better than that, didn't he? Not only was he definitely a defender, but he won it several more times. A year later, set a new record, winning his sixth in 2010 against Portsmouth. And then two years later, his seventh with victory over Liverpool. That's seven FA Cup wins two different clubs in the midst of a glittering career for one of England's finest ever players. And someone who was a cornerstone of every team he played in, crucial to every bit of their success. He is true FA Cup legend as yet unsurpassed. But I'll leave you with one final oddity. His only proper goal in the competition, save for that penalty shootout goal he scored in 2005. It wasn't for either Arsenal or Chelsea. It came in a 2-1 defeat for Derby County, Brighton in the 2019 fifth round. That was his final match in the competition, his 49th FA Cup match in all. The seven wins, though, keep him to a head of the next best still. And I think it's a record he will keep for some time. The FA Cup's greatest. Well, OK, it's time to look at the clock again, guys. Aidan, you went 800th of a second over. That was your delayed reaction, Gary. It was my fault. I'll be held accountable for that. It was my fault. [LAUGHTER] Right. OK, I mean, that's a cold time a bit of the mind, that's for sure. Dave, I'm going to come to you at first with a little bit of help here. So we've got a different back into the history with Stevie and more to dates, one with Ashley Colnein. Thought, but I think it's got to compare across centuries, isn't it? I mean, literally set a century. I think Charles and the Perivent has second choices, I think. He did. I mean, it is very difficult to-- I mean, obviously, Lord Kinead. I mean, he's got all the pedigree of the FA Cup. And they ended up giving him the trophy, didn't they? And ultimately, he services to the competition. But I'm glad I hadn't gone with Ashley Colcus. I mean, Ashley Colle is a very difficult person to warm to, you know, with all of the things that have gone up with Ashley Colle's life. But I mean, he is one of the best players I've seen in the last 25 years. He's a fantastic football. He's almost as good as Derek Stade, and that's so good. So he's incredibly difficult to choose between the pair. But anybody got a coin? I don't know. I'm going to go for Lord Kinead, just because he looks a bit like W.G. Grags. But really, there's nothing between him. Absolutely nothing. OK, welcome to you, Stavey. It's worth mentioning that Ashley Cole, aside from Bert Trettman's the only guy that was selected by all three of you in different sort of priorities. But put you all glad to one side for a second, Stavey, his lordship and his own goal. Let's talk about the other two selections. What are your thoughts? Again, with Dave on this, it's a hers-breath between the two. You've got Major Mandarin there, who is the type of person that the FA Cup was built upon. It's without people like that, then Ashley Cole doesn't get the chance to do what he does 100 odd years later. Yeah, Ashley Cole, what he did there in the success that he had in the competition, they clearly had a relish for. And an ear on which the competition was already diminished in the eyes of many, on a playing field that isn't quite as level as it used to be, perhaps, you could argue. But to do what he did with a talented Arsenal side and then to go and do it with Chelsea as well is very impressive, too. And I think it's that it is just that foundation building that makes me lean towards Major Mandarin in that respect. Like you said, we all put Ashley Cole in. And it did come massively close to put in Ashley Cole's my first pick for this. And it was basically on the basis that Canada scored this ludicrous home goal. And he'd celebrated Victory by Stand Down, his head. I think if Ashley Cole had a similar kind of celebration to winning say is the last of those FA Cups, then that probably would have been the clinch in Asper. So if you'd scored a spectacular own goal in the last of his FA Cup finals, that would have been for Liverpool. That would have been purely coincident. I would have proved with that as well. I would have proved with that one as well. Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Major Mandarin. And if he doesn't win this face off, which is a tough one to go on there, then he has to be the honorary referee for the piece. It's got cool. I mean, I guess you're sort of comparison. He's a little bit easier because I mean, as I said, obviously two lesser well-known characters than the guy used to let you. But less than we talk in this similar era here. So what Canada or Major Arthur Mandarin? Yeah, I don't know that it's necessarily easier. It's very, very hard. I'm not sure how much help I'm going to be here. If you'd asked me to think of a name of somebody associated with the FA Cup in the 19th century, the only name I would have been able to give you is Lord Canada from knowing the sort of pivotal role he played in the early days of that competition and then he'll just be becoming part of the FA and all that Sheban. I didn't know much about the other guy again. But Heban's given me something I did not know before. And he seems so utterly synonymous with it all as well. So I'm not going to be any help to you at all here, Gary. I cannot pick. I mean, I was far enough here. As I mentioned earlier, when I saw there's a few unusual names, I didn't want to delve to it because I'm too deep because I wonder here what the guy's pitch was. So I mean, this is a really difficult, this is probably the most difficult selection because actually in the modern era, it would be far and away that the best choice, clear choice because of his record in the FA Cup, I just think because of the history of the competition and if you go back to 872, it would be wrong to ignore some of the pioneers. And I think I'm going to go away from this man who earned him because of his sort of playing record and also referee. And the fact that perhaps Lord Canada put it on goal and then he didn't understand perhaps not the best way to sort of apologize for the on goal. So I'm going to go with major, major Francis Marindian. Dives, persuasive pitch again if for somebody I've never heard of swum this one. Okay, we're going to move to midfield now. So, Steve, I'm going to come to you first. Let me just open the clock ready and you can start whenever you're ready, go. - I'm going to go for a midfielder who is probably responsible for the last truly iconic FA Cup third round moment. I'm going for Matthew Handler of Sutton United. Part-time Brit layer, self-employed part-time Brit layer. It's Coventry City. It's the team that have won the FA Cup not much more than a year and a half earlier. There's no way in the world that this team of John Sillitz in this magnificent kit, the first division reputation of FA Cup when as perennial Houdini artists at least once every three years, escaping relegation. But a purveyor of some of the most esoteric and finest kits across decades and all of that. You know, it's the classic upset. It's the classic upset. This is, you know, it's, it's, sorry, Adrian, but it's, it's, it's horrific. It's, it's the horrific of the 1980s. And here comes Matthew Handler drifted in from the, from the left-hand side to get on the end of that cross. Edge of the six-year box. And it's everything that surrounds this goal. It's the lunacy and the bedlam that goes off in the, in the stands. It's the, the windmill celebration that speaks to the 1970s almost. Oh, this, this is, you know, and again, it's John Mott, you know, doing, doing that Coventry just as it was an eggistry for all those years earlier. Sorry, Adrian. For me, this, this, this is, I don't know, kind of like the watermark of the FA Cup. You know, there's, there's, there's horrors to come at the end of the, this, this season with the FA Cup and, and, and the Hillsborough disaster. And, and this is kind of like the end of innocence for the FA Cup for me. And, and this is just kind of like the, I don't know, it's, it's the full stop in, in what the FA Cup used to be. And it becomes a very different entity after this. You know, they've got past Dagen and Mayorsbury. And, and, and, you know, into the fourth round, we'll get beat by knowledge eight now. But, you know, on Monday, he has to, he has to kind of like go back to work, do some brick laying, but bail out at 12 o'clock because he's a guest on WOG. And for the next three weeks, he's inundated with, with media requests that, that's strange to dry up after carot road, but for that split second and his manager on the pitch and all of that, you know, this was, I say, the last hurrah of romance for the FA Cup. And it has to be Matthew Hammer. I mean, great pitch, great, great pitch, Steve. It's interesting, all three choices of this section scored iconic goals. And, and Matthew Hammer, I remember the game so well. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's great. It's great pitch and I like the worgen reference at the end as well, but I added a little bit of color to it. Hayden, I'm going to come to you next. Another iconic goal. Where you go? Well, has there ever been a better, more iconic FA Cup winning goal than that scored by Ricardo Vija, or Ricky Via to you and me in the 981 Cup final replay? Of course not. The wandering zigzags that he, that he did on his way to glory there. There is repeated in all great FA Cup moment montages for a reason, and that's because it remains the most iconic of all the winning goals through the years. It was even voted Wembley's goal of the century, and who am I to argue with that? He'd arrived at Spurs with our dealers, of course, following Argentina's win in the 78 World Cup. Getting a nice Buenos Aires style ticket tape. Welcome to boot scored on his top and debut as well, but it's only this goal in 81 that he gets remembered for forever. He'd not actually had a good time of things in the initial final against Manchester City. This was in 1981. He was on the right side of them in field, but he'd struggled in the game, didn't really get much authority on it, and was withdrawn midway through the second half while Spurs were still trailing. Pretty much distraught by all accounts at this turn of events, but five days later things would turn around somewhat. He had kept his place in the starting line up for the replay. It was a wet Thursday evening back at Wembley. He even scored the opening goal now, who remembers that? He scored the opening goal of the game, rather less iconic style than what was to come. Basically being at the right place at the right time to tap one home past Joe Corrigan with the ball falling nicely to him. But this was just the dress rehearsal, as he ran off one goal celebration. Better was to follow. So with the match tied at 2-2 in the closing minutes, he picked up the ball well outside the City Box, ran at the bunch of four or five defenders who seemed poised to stop him, but mostly fell over, or stumbled as he sort of jinked his way through, changing direction again, sending him flying his wake, and then sliding the ball, past Joe Corrigan and one of the stumbling defenders, sending the crowd into uproar and a very high-pitched piece of another excitable commentary from John Watson. He ran off again this time, but it felt utterly different to his first goal. This goal was so good that it just felt decisive on the match. Great goals at the right moment can inflict more damage than merely adding one to the score line. They can deflate and defeat the opposition. And that's what happened on this day with this goal, the greatest goal in FA Cup Final history. He may not have been the greatest midfielder of all the time. He wasn't Tottenham's greatest of the era, and he wasn't even the best Argentine in that side. But he was a very good player who produced a moment of pure brilliance on a huge stage, and that's the stuff for sporting greatness. And I guess if you're gonna be remembered for one moment, one great moment to stand above everything else you did, you may as well make it so into the iconic that nobody ever forgets it. And that's what he did that day. - To 58.94. Yeah, great pictures world, would they? Yeah, I remember the iconic goals. When we finals go, it's an iconic goal, as you say. - I managed to avoid mentioning Garth Crook's little leg jinker to try to finish it for us. - Probably as well, probably as well. Garth would have hung his head in shame if he'd nicked that one in the goal line, when he really, and that's the Ronaldo, sort of Christian Arnold Ronaldo sort of finishes it. Making somebody's goal and tapping it from the three inches away. - Dave, you've given us some left field selections. This is sort of more famous, your guy here. The way you go, Willy. - I'd just like to say, I'm very, very sorry. And he wanted to take your headphones out for three minutes. He needs a course, Ronnie Radford. Ricky Villa may have scored the greatest goal in FA Cup, foreign rule history. The greatest goal in FA Cup history. Without any shadow over there, you might shake it, but it is Ronnie Radford. In the, what I think many people call the greatest FA Cup toy of all time. And while I understand your pain, in the bigger picture, let's remember, Malcolm McDonald's lost. So that's a good thing for us all, surely. I mean, it is the greatest goal of all time in FA Cup. In the greatest period in the FA Cup's history, you know, every food you know it, go to St. Janges Park, get a draw, bring them back to Edgar Street. And it's just, I mean, the game gets called off twice. And again, I do apologize, Adam, but the majesty of this is the replay finally happens on FA Cup fourth round day. Which means it's on a Saturday. Which means it's on matter of the day, which it wouldn't have been at any other time. And, you know, Malcolm McDonald's scores, and Newcastle look like they're gonna win it. There we are, just in the dying seconds. Ronnie Radford, on Eddieford High Street, wins the ball off John Tudor, plays a quick one too, and then laces it into the top corner. Ian McFaw, God bless him, makes it look fantastic with his diving effort to try and save it, because it's nobody saving that. It flies into the top corner. John Motzunga's Berserk and gets himself a career for the rest of his life. And there's a glorious picture from behind Ronnie Radford of the cathedral in the background, you know, and the Mappa Mundes in that cathedral. But this is a great miracle in the Mappa Mundes. Ronnie Radford's goal is everything that the FA Cup is about. There's no question about it. I mean, this obviously when Gary Tudor's the wrong one, this is gonna be my patina for the rest of every TFT podcast that we ever do. But, you know, I could just have said that the start of this Ronnie Radford, and that would have been it, because everybody in the world would have known why this is the correct answer. I'll rest my case with 40 odd seconds left to go. Just to spare you the patina, just for you. - Oh, you're so gracious. - Dave, it all hard, just stabbed him in the back and the front and in the neck. And then you said, "So sorry, guys." I mean, yeah, okay. Yeah, I mean, you know, nobody picked exactly those goals against the back of his dive, so you were okay with it. - Yeah. - I know, you know, all our classes soon. FA Cup sort of trials and tribulations, the passport, iconic moment, iconic moment. Stevie, put your own guy to one side for a moment. Riccovia, money Radford. What do you think will be? - Both, both utterly iconic moments, utterly iconic. You know, the Ronnie Radford goal, it's football's equivalent of when Harold Graham gets hit by that swinging punch that just sends him drop, like a tree. That's what it is in football in terms. But then you've also got this Riccovia goal, which is kind of like, it became the soundtrack. It became, you know, a stability type almost for the FA Cup. You know, it was shown that often that, you know, it kind of almost went out of fashion, but to come back in, a bit like the Tardelli goal in the '82 World Cup Final, we saw it so many times you almost became desensitized to it. But then you start to view it in so many different ways, which inclusive of that, that golf crooks, hook of the foot to, to will him on, to put that ball in the back of the net. Obviously as an '80s kid, you know, that, that was a huge thing. Obviously the Ronnie Radford goal as well. The two of these things ended up, the two of these, these goals, these moments ended up on the montages for match of the day for decades and decades and decades. And, you know, we will never outrun these. These will outlive us all for, for hundreds of years beyond our existence, honestly. I think I'm with Aidan earlier on. I find this impossible to split. This is, this is an atom. This is an atom that a football atom that is impossible to split, which is why you have to pick Matthew Anlon, basically. (laughing) Oh, neatly done, Stephen. Nearly done as ever. Hi. So I want to ask you to compare Matthew Anlon and Matthew Anlon. (laughing) I mean, I mean, I mean, I always spoke about the one Radford team before. So, you know, whatever you think, will they? I mean, if you think I'm voting in favor of Ronnie Radford, you're very much mistaken. (laughing) You know, he is on a list in mine and other Newcastle fans' minds, along with Cantonar, Mike Ashley and Graham Sodding Fenton. You know, this, this is what we're talking about here. He just got lucky, didn't he? You know, the ball's bubbling all over. He just swings a leg and, oh, it just happens to go in. You know, that's as lucky as they come, honestly. He's been living off this for 50 odd years for just getting lucky. If he was any good, he'd have played for somebody else. It was just pure luck. Anyway, with that in mind, I'm voting for Matthew Hammond. (laughing) Well, a recent argument, a logic deployed in all cases, they're well done, but... (laughing) In all the seriousness, just to add to that, you know, Newcastle's moments in FA Cup glory are so dim and distant. This is the moment we get remembered for an FA Cup. I mean, it is irritating, but you do understand the reason for it, but I'm still not voting for it. Fair enough, I would have been disappointed if you had, Mike. So, Dave, what do you think? Matthew Hammond and the Bricki. The Bricki, you were at the heart of Congress City, or the Argentine guy who danced around Man City and then rolled a ball to the name back to win the FA Cup. And I have touched a nerve there, I don't know. No! No! (laughing) I think... There still wasn't as much vitriol as Gary got for the Penenka decision. (laughing) I think in the end, I have to give a Riki for you. I mean, it is just such a fantastic... And it's, you know, it's got the benefit of that redemption story, hasn't it, over the four days, you know, entrooping off, disconsal it on the Saturday after he'd been substituted and then coming back and lighting up the cup final with this goal that, you know, probably is the greatest stuff. I got final goal, I think. I mean, the Bricki from Sutton... I mean, again, it's a great moment. It's not as good as Ronnie Redford. (laughing) Probably Tim Pezagloch, he's perhaps the last great surgeon or the Albean word absolutely crap at the time, so it probably wasn't such a shock. But, no, it's Riki for you. Okay, I think if I don't have an FA Cup upset goal, it's just not even just the FA Cup. And while I recognize talent and Riki for you, it's a great goal. Yeah, I mean, it was a talented guy. I think sometimes it's important that, you know, we recognize that the glory of the FA Cup, what it suggests and, you know, both Steve and Dave, they're great pitches for their guys. So I'm going to go with one of them. I love the pitch, Dave, that, you know, it was better golfing them up, more important, with a miracle than the mapping one day, that's great. And I think one of the enduring images of that goal was, look forward, we'll go, okay, because it was almost hovering in the air for a second as a ball flew past him. Matthew Hanlon was, you know, I'd dare to get another great story of it. I ain't going to hype my guts, and I'm sorry, buddy, but I've got to go with Ronnie Redford. It's just, it's just the most iconic FA Cup upset goal of all time, I think. Yes, he was looking, yes, the pitch was crap. Yes, it was muddy. Yes, it was pouring down the rain, it was horrible. And it was just, you know, I'm going to close my eyes and smack it through. But I think that's what the FA Cup's a little bit. The glory is knocked out. The cup upset, so, I'm going to run away for them. And, sorry, not sorry. - We'll just do it for the rest of this program now. - It's your cliched nonsense. (both laughing) - What's wrong? - Move, moving swiftly along, babe. - I'd just like to add, it was Julian Jackson that, that, that, not Terrell Graham over there, just, just to distract Aidan for a minute. (both laughing) - Thanks, David. - You, you, you, you, you, you two plastered if you've never seen that knockout. - Right, I just, it's a bit of a stunner. You don't get them from them, that's for sure. I, so, I hope you're going to forgive me for a moment and we're going to come to the forward line. And I, I know, you know, for the first time. - I saw you all coming, don't worry. - I, I, I just, I saw you all coming. (both laughing) - You can't even say any, but tell me your forward is where they, where you go. - Okay, well, we're going to go into cliched nonsense here again. So what is the 1953 FA Cup final known as? The Matthews final. Pure, sycophantic nonsense based on a bizarre, collective wish to see this so-called wizard of the wing pick up a cup, winner's medal. Now, you may have earned his place as the eponymous hero of this match, but he was not the only Stanley doing great things that day for Blackpool. And some might say, like me right here, right now, that Stan Mortensen, who was the one who should have taken the accolades from this game. Okay, I will concede that Matthews did set up several of Blackpool's goals with his impressively slow paced wing play and his little slow jink and cross. But, you know, who was it who scored a hat trick to secure victory in this Matthews final? Well, it was the guy at the sharp end of Blackpool's play, not the superstar Matthews. Oh no, it was the son of South Shields up here on time side, Stanley Mortensen. He was an incredible striker at a prodigious scoring rate, ultimately finishing with 197 goals in just over 300 games for Blackpool. That included seven in their run to the 1948 Cup final and he scored in every round that year, including a hat trick in the semi-final win over Tottenham. And he did score again in the final, making him the first player to achieve that feat, but they lost that year to Manchester United. 51, they reached the final again, but they succumbed to the greatness of my second pick for this, which is Jackie Melbourne, of course, in Newcastle United. Here he features again, but in 1953, they had the chance again. Now, they were up against Bolton, Nat Lothaus and all, and he'd given Bolton the lead early on. Mortensen then equalised. And that shot, okay, it was deflected. And at the time, they may have said it was an own goal, but, you know, sanity prevailed soon after. And it was a bit of a disservice to him anyway, to not give him that. He was awarded it in the days afterwards. Mainly when a news reporter just gave it to him, and that story soon simply became fact, and I think that just adds to it. Bolton were 3-1 up deep into the second heart. Before guess who? Stan Mortensen pulled a goal back. Then with two minutes left, he scored yet again with a fierce free kick to equalise. When Bill Perry then scored the winner two minutes later, it was hailed as a triumph for Stanley Matthews, but it was only possible thanks to Stan Mortensen. When he died in 1991, oddly on the very day that Blackpool played their first match at Wembley since that '53 final, one wag was quoted in the independent of saying of Mortensen's funeral that they'll probably call it the Matthews funeral. In 1953, he had become only the third player ever to score a hat-trick in a cup final, a stat which remains to this day. Nobody's achieved it since. And I give you Stan Mortensen. The real FA Cup hero of 1953. I love the fact that Jeremy, the couple of number of these players that have put a well-done, well-done, well-done, well-done, well-done, well-done. Yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, everybody calls it Matthews for me, right now it's interesting to set the Matthews funeral when he got Perry's ouch. Okay, Dave, coming to you next, and that's the left field selection, typical Dave Baller's selection here. When I listen to this one, it's really template. Where you go? I think the magnificence of the FA Cup is that it's always, I've always put it so often, the journeyman and the guy who never ordinarily gets the headline to grabs the story in the FA Cup. And I think in the greatest FA Cup decade in the 1970s, nobody did that better than Alan Taylor at Westam. He started the 1974-75 season at Rochdale in the fourth division as a kid just coming through. And Rochdale played Marine in the first round of the FA Cup. And that went to a replay, they won. They played trumpet in the second round of the FA Cup and got knocked out. Now ordinarily, Alan Taylor would have been playing in those games, but he was injured. And commonly in the December, 1974, Westam were looking for a forward, and they'd bought Alan Taylor. Now, he kind of entered them. He took them a while to settle, and he eventually got in the team really towards the back end of February. He played his first FA Cup hybrid when Westam went there for the fifth round. I mean, the pitch, you've got to go and look at it on YouTube. I mean, it looks like Wimbledon's pitch from a couple of days ago, I mean, it was absolutely, absolutely. You didn't need a substitute, you needed a submarine. It was an unbelievable serve. For the first goal, the ball gets stuck in the ball. The Arsenal goalkeeper believes it eventually gets knocked out of the back pass, and there's Alan Taylor rushing into school. The second goal is a lovely bathroom Trevor Brooking, just inside, and Taylor sort of gouges it out of the mud and fires it into the bottom corner. Two-nil, Westam beat Arsenal into the semi-final. They're played, which first game's a draw, second game, Stanford Bridge. Alan Taylor again, it's which scored in the first minute, but he equalised fairly soon after ghosting in at the back pass with a little header. Then there's a clearance that drops to him 18 yards out. It's it first time into the bottom corner. Two-one, Westam of all, Alan Taylor. With two goals in round six, two goals in the semi-final. Westam, off to the FA Cup final, to play for him. What happens? Billie Jennings takes a shot from distance. Peter Miller spills it, and there's Alan Taylor to mop it up, and sland the ball through Miller's legs to make it one-nil Westam. A little bit lighter, ground pattern draws on into the near pass. Peter Miller obligingly spills it again into Alan Taylor's path. He scores again. Westam wins the Cup two-nil. Alan Taylor, the fellow who started at Rochdale at the beginning of the season, has suddenly scored six goals in three FA Cup games. He's won the FA Cup for Westam. And apart from the following season, he scores 17 goals and tops scores to Westam. That's basically the end of his career. The entire career really is built on three FA Cup targets. Everybody who's a Westam fan will always remember the name Alan Taylor, and that is the power of the FA Cup. You know, it's interesting. I saw Alan Taylor thought this is going to be a difficult pitch. I didn't realise he scored goals in the semi-final and the six rounds as well. So, I mean, a lot of that thought, yeah, that's going to be a difficult pitch, but dive. That's typical dive baller to live it again. Good pitch, Billie, good pitch. Stevie, I'm going to come to you next. I mentioned at the start, you only picked one and filled red, but this was a good choice, but here you go. I did. The only Liverpool player I threw into the equation for this one was the one and only Ian Rush. No man this side of 1888 has scored more goals in the competition. No man has scored more goals in FA Cup finals than this man. And it's not just about his time at Liverpool. He was part of a magnificent Chester run to the fifth round in 1979-80. You know, a run that went a long way in drawing Liverpool's attention to this, this scrawny little teenager that hadn't even grown his task yet. You know, a run that took them all the way to Portman Road in the fifth round where they narrowly lost out to Ipswich Town. A run in which, sorry, Adam, he went to St James Park in the third round and knocked out Newcastle. This was, you know, part of it is, you know, love a third with the FA Cup. Onwards to Liverpool three times a winner, two goals against Southampton in the 1986-70 final in extra time. The man for the big moment, two goals against Everton in the 1986 final, two goals again in the 1989 final again against Everton, you know, picking on the perennial rivals, the team he supported as a kid. No, he scored again against Sunderland in much happier circumstances for Aiden in the 1992 final. It's that that 1986 one, it's the second goal as well. It's the way that he plants it into Bobby Mims, you know, past his right hand. It nestles in that corner and the camera set behind the goal bounces away. It just remained an image that was shown again and again and again. You know, even after his Liverpool base, his very last FA Cup goal came in a Newcastle United Churtade against Everton, but got us some power. This was the, you know, it was not the in-rush of old, you know, that that in-rush had gone, but he still had the temerity to Tom meant Everton. Sorry, Paul McPally. Over and over again, it had to be Everton on the punchline to his final say in the FA Cup. But, you know, Aiden-rush was the FA Cup throughout the 1980s and into the early 1990s. And, you know, I rest my case. There's, there's, there has to be no other man other than Aiden-rush from Chester to Newcastle with significant Liverpool in between all those victories, all those goals. It's, it's A-rush. OK. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I thought this was a guy you're going to select. You didn't let me down, Stevie. OK, so let's, let's, let's give me a little bit of thinking. Time, Aiden, put your selection to one side for a moment. Compare, I mean, Ian Rushing on a tale that different store is, I suppose. There's one sort of, you know, supernova moment and one that's sort of spread success out of many years, thoughts. Well, again, Dave's pitch has made this a closer little decision or discussion that I thought it would. It's, it's the stories that you don't know enough about, that Dave is bringing to the table here. And that's, that's really good stuff. Ah, Ian Rush, though, I think because his level of success has spanned so much further, I would probably go for him. I'm glad Stephen threw in his goal for Newcastle against Everton because I was going to mention that here, if he hadn't, hadn't done so. Because he even came off the bench, he was terrible for Newcastle, but he came off the bench briefly away at Everton. And of course he got the winner. But, you know, that probably doesn't count as one of his most important FA Cup goals. And mainly because I know much more about him, I'll probably just veer towards him. But again, the fascinating story that Dave's, Dave's told us there and does make that a very, very close call. You're having a tough time here, Gary. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I just, yeah, as you quite, brought what he mentioned, I say, when I saw him on the tennis, and I thought, well, that's how I put that one to one swipe. Now, Dave's delivered again. So, Dave, coming to you to, to Stryker's famous in, in the Northwest, Martin Slan, Ian Rush, what do you think, right? This is a close one as well, but I mean, yeah, it's hard lines in it. You score a trick at Wembley. And so, well, the film gets all the glory. I mean, you know, that's, that's, that's a bit unfair. And, you know, it just feels right that you get the chisel out and put Stan Mortensen up there, really. And he gets his, he gets his due at last, I think that's, that's fair. And also, you couldn't do the moustache either in the chisel. So, I mean, it's fair. She don't know how much experience and practice have had it. She has done difficult things. I had to do, um, and the glasses, but it locks. Oh, well, it's a go. So, that was on to Menka have on the stash. Yes, he did not do, I made a great, great show as well. Yeah, mate, he said, very, very bushy one. It's just, um, it's in Prague. Um, yeah, I've got, I've got to Prague have a look. It's just above the stadium, where he used to play by hitting the inside. It was a problem anyway. So, um, Stevie, um, if you put, uh, in Russia one side, two different things. There are different, different, different types of players as well, but in Mortensen and Alan Taylor. Yes, I mean, the Alan Taylor story is fantastic. You know, uh, obviously, I knew of Alan Taylor, uh, you know, when look at West Am and all that. But again, you know, like, like, uh, Dave's choice of goalkeeper, I didn't know the, you know, the, the, the back story. You know, completely of him and that, and that was fascinating. But yes, that's Stan Moore from, you know, imagine that, you know, scholar hat trick and, and, and it's, it's, you know, it's the Matthews final. That's like the Slater's goal and the, the 2006, I think, at final, the CSA final. Uh, rather than Gerard final, or, you know, well, it's, it's, yeah, it just seems so incredulous. Uh, you know, the, the, the story behind Stanley Matthews in, in that, that, that. Odyssey to win the competition and the will for people to see and win it. Uh, you know, it, it, it's great, but it is taking the pace that that's not the Mortensen final. And, and, and I do have to start. I have to slide this down in that as well. It's interesting, it's like calling the 96 walk up front, the Martin Peters fund, isn't really. I mean, okay, okay, Alan's has a great story, a great story, but I think it's what sorts of good rules have for me to fleeting. It's one, it's iconic, I know, and, but I guess, you know, and it'd be, they'd be full of in the fire and life that had beaten, man, you know, I'd do it, or something might be a different story. But I mean, a great pitch Dave has always picked a guy out of security and put him right in the forward line, Mortensen and Rush. I think the guy who scored most goals in the FA Cup since 1988, I think Steve says most FA Cup final goals in 1988, and also scored for Newcastle in the FA Cup. No hat tricks, they're in the final. No, it's true. That's true. But one more finals, that wouldn't win any more finals. So I'm going to go with you and Rush. I think, I think anything else would be a little too obtuse. I mean, Mortensen, you know, couldn't even get his own final land after, I mean, you know, I'd say Martin Peters in the local final. But yeah, I think, I think, if it's not, if I don't say you and Rush, that would be, that would be unfair. So I'm going to go with you and Rush there. So Steve, you've got Liverpool guy in there. It would have been sacrilege if they not paid you and it would have been a bit. You could have registered as a well buddy, so it would have been harsh not to keep you on. I'm taking this as you actually wanted Mortensen, but we're just naming it Ian Rush. Instead, you know, taking the glory. It's the English selection. That's right. I mean, corrects, yeah. I like that. That's good. That's good. We're crossing the white line. We're going to, for the managers, coaches, when we call them these days, dive on to come to you first and in typical day of bowl of fashion, you picked a guy, I don't know anything about it. I looked at him up a little bit, but I didn't want to look at him because I want you to give me a typical day of bowl of pitch, the way you go, but I'm blooming the line slightly. But the greatest stuff I've got manager, I think, is Jimmy Murphy from 1958. Technically wasn't the manager, I suppose, given that Matt Busby was the Manchester United manager, but in the wake of the Munich disaster on the 6th of February, Jimmy Murphy held Manchester United together completely. He only missed that flight because he was also the Wales manager at the time, and he was on international duty while applying a World Cup qualifier. So he missed Munich, got back to Manchester only to find out that the player in the Christ Manchester United had perished in the snow, and he was left to pick up the pieces and do what he could, and 13 days later Manchester United played their first game, which was the FA Cup 5th round Tigers, Sheffield Wendy's, that famous game where the match programs there, and you look at where the teams are, and there are no names for Manchester United because nobody knows who's going to play, and he's there cobbling together a team from youngsters and whatever, and the transfer market, 59,000 people turn up at Old Trafford, and so may Manchester United beat Sheffield Wednesday through now, then in the 6th round they got to West Brom, 58,000 at the Hall of Thorns, and it's a 2-2 draw, they get a light draw Manchester United, they just keep going, and they win in front of 66,000 at Old Trafford in the replay, and Bobby Robson played for West Brom in that game, and he said there was no way on earth that Manchester United were not going to win that game, it didn't matter what we did, Manchester United were going to win, because it was just such a way, a tidal wave of emotion that carried him over, and then they play Fulham in the semi final, Bobby Jordan scores twice in the 2-2 draw, and then they win 5-3, but you get to the final at Wembley, the Bolton final they lose, but four of the survivors of Munich play in the final, but there's only two players left from the 1957 final, six of them had died, two of them would never play again, and some over those three months, Jimmy Murphy as the acting manager had stitched that club together, held them through, got them through, and if Manchester United hadn't got through that season, if Manchester United hadn't got to the cup final, what would the future of Manchester United be, but Murphy carrying everything with players that he'd brought up from being kids dead, with his mad boss being hospital, Duncan Edward's dying, somehow had the centre character to pull that team through and get to the cup final, and whether they won it or it doesn't matter, that's the greatest manager in the FA Cup. You're brilliant, just brilliant, just brilliant. Yeah, I mean a guy who's sort of, you know, just like the cold records, he managed to, there's acting manager, shall we say, for a losing cup final team, but a wonderful pitch day, a wonderful pitch typically, typically brilliant. Stevie, you're going to break that brother the way you go. Yeah, I fully agree, great pitch there by Dave. I'm going for Bill Nicholson, the man of the 1960s as far as the FA Cup was concerned. A decade in which eight different teams won the FA Cup, a decade in which only taught them, won it more than once. In 1961, it was part of them winning the league and FA Cup double the first team of the 20th century to do so. In retaining the FA Cup in 1962, they were only the second team to do that in the 20th century. The other one being Newcastle United aid, some more Newcastle positivity there, as far as this progress can turn. And then to win it again in 1967, you know, in a London derby, you know, north versus west against Chelsea. Sorry, Gary. Bill Nicholson, you know, he's built these teams, you know, in a decade in which he leads Tottenham to be the first English club to win a European trophy. You know, this myriad of FA Cup success has so much going for it because he builds kind of like two teams as well. You know, and even the first team as by 1962, the addition of Jimmy Grieves to it, which is a blessing on the curse because it kind of unsettles the double win inside. They never win a league title again to this very day. Yet, they're the are again in 1967, you know, a rejuvenated side inclusive of Pat Jennings, my choice of goal people. And to be that on the present in the FA Cup during the 1960s, the most competitive decade, this side of the the Second World War, a decade in which eight different teams won the lead title as well. Success was massively spread around. So for any team to be able to do this was a stunning achievement. And to have such a historical context to it as well, that league cup double that retain of the FA Cup, which was so difficult to do. And then to rebuild and do it again and win the cup again later in the decade. Yeah, I think of all that era's great managers, you know, Bill Nicholson is, you know, probably along with Harry Cattrick, you know, from the north and the south, a juxtaposition of each other in not getting the kudos they should get. But in that respect, Nicholson was the FA Cup in managerial terms. Okay, okay, good call, good call. And for your couch, we just found the short distance from across North London from talking to Arsenal. And so I'll just bet your guy, bully. Yeah, we're coming a bit more recently again with this one. She was a marina once called Ars and Wenger, a specialist in failure. Now, I know one or two things about sporting failure, as we've discussed at banks. But while Wenger may not have won the league after 2004, his record of success in the FA Cup is by any measure simply astonishing. He is the competition's most successful manager, having won it no less than seven times, parallel with Ashley Collet. For context, that's two more FA Cup wins than any other manager, and indeed only six managers have ever won it more than twice. But given the longevity required for such an achievement, I think it's fairly safe to say it's a record unlikely to be beaten for a long time. His first came in 1998 against some team from the North East, I can't quite recall, but they were very much outclassed on that day. He nearly added a second in 2001 only for Michael Owen to intervene late on in Cardiff. But that would be the only one that he would lose in terms of Cup files. A year later, the beat Chelsea, two nil win again, and then Southampton in 2003 for a third title, and a fourth came in 2005 with that penalty shootout win over Manchester United. But that was all in his big successful era. This is when the so-called years of failure now kicked in. A new wealth was dominating the trophies in England, and Arsenal were getting a bit left behind. It was an increasingly frustrated figure, I guess, as the glory dried up. In those later seasons at Arsenal, there was lots of growing discontent, rancour and fans waving there, little printed out pieces of A4 paper saying "Vengar out". But he still only went and won the FA Cup another three times, three times in four seasons, that is, as well. And frankly, if it was me, and I like to think me and Arsenal and Vengar have so much in common, but if it was me, I'd have delivered the first of those last few trophies and then swarmed off straight into the sunset, telling all the winches to do one, frankly. But he's clearly made a sternest stuff. The 2014 final was the first of those, and that the pressure was rather intense, because it'd been nine years without a trophy, after all that glory they'd had. They were overwhelming favourites to beat Hall City of course, but they made it rather difficult, winning out in extra time in the end. A year later, rather easier, they thrashed Villa 4-0, and then beat Chelsea a couple years after that, 2-1, 2017. But it really is the remarkable longevity that can only be admired, I think, for all the other successes he brought, Arsenal. It was the FA Cup where he actually brought, by far, the most joy, the most consistent victory, seven victories, once a runner up, it was three times losing semi-finalist as well. So, you know, he had sustained success in this competition, but I still maintain. He should have left after one of those last few victories and just told him all to F off. Well, I'm glad you didn't. Yeah, OK. All right, OK. Dave, I'm going to come to you first and tell me if you can give me some guidance between the two North London managers that have been selected. What do you think? It's very difficult. I mean, I do want some Qrush from Aidan for not picking Bob Stoker, but... Oh, dear, really. I'm just glad nobody else did. All that goalkeeper who just fell over and it happened to hit him. I mean, this is really tough, I mean, Arsenal have been going to use the Year's Nushing, the Ashley Cole, in terms of management, I mean, fantastic success. Bill Nicholson building that team through the '60s when it was such ferocious competition. I mean, I can't choose between. I mean, Nicholson's achievements are fantastic in the heat of that, but I've got a lot of time for what Ben Gaddida does, how he went, everybody else was tossing the FA Cup off. You know, he always gave it a proper run, you know. I can't be between him, to be honest, Gary. I mean, it is a toss of a coin between that type of cars. You're not much out of me today. I'm going to have to turn to Stoker for a bit of guidance. It's worth mentioning, Aidan, before we go on, that that guy fell over when he was in the goal and all that, he was on the hand twice and got up and he hit him again. And was chosen by both of the guys with the third choice, so we didn't get him. Stoker wasn't picked at all, mate. So you would never need to change your body. Stevie, I'm going to come to you then, matey. The difference between the two guys there are some anger and the story of Gina Murphy. Thought, what a wild and record I asked something about. Was it nearly two, very nearly two decades between his first and his last FA Cup successes there? That is truly incredible. Absolutely amazing track record. No matter what condition the FA Cup was at various times throughout those years. And as part of that, I can still have a quite see beyond the touchline at the Millennium Stadium in 2001, looking utterly disgruntled to his side as an incredulous Sherrod who the A is punching the in one of the most amazing daylight robbery FA Cup finals in history. And I was joyously there that day. So yeah, it's kind of bizarre to say, but vangers longevity and all that success, it does kind of fall beneath the radar for me a little bit because of that. That were obviously sunny day in May 2001. Jimmy Murphy, again, what a story, what a thing to do, what an achievement in dragging that Manchester United side to the 1958 FA Cup. So you know, two amazing choices there for differing reasons. And yeah, you know, I suppose was shades of Kenny Diaglice in 1989, in taking Liverpool to the 89 final after Wallord happened at Hillsborough. You know, I have that leaning towards Jimmy Murphy and that respect, you know, it's, it's much more than just taking a team on to an FA Cup final. It's, it's helping lift a city back up off his knees as well. And that's the difference in any of the spectrum I could be going for us and vanger without shadow of a doubt. But I do, I have to go for Jimmy Murphy and that respect. Okay, good thing. Okay. I mean, it's coming to you to close it out there. So you've got a picture in Bill and Nick and Jimmy Murphy. Can you give me some help here? I'm probably not, no. I'm Bill Nicholson, big success. And I think there's parallels to vanger just in a slightly shorter timeframe and not with as many trophies. But the sort of two little stints of success with different teams that they had to develop. And I think there's similarities there. Whereas the Jimmy Murphy one, and yeah, that parallel to Diaglice is really good one, I think, both going on to the Cup final in those respective seasons. That's a point I hadn't really thought of before, but it's a good one. But like with any sort of great tale of that, that the victory or defeat as it was in this case doesn't necessarily matter. I think it's the fact that they picked themselves up and got there is just as important and victory didn't really have to follow it. Whether, whether Stephen would have felt the same in 1989, if ever to me, I don't know. But, you know, that's a different matter. But I think given the Bill Nicholson one has a lot of parallels to vanger just with not quite as much success. And the Jimmy Murphy one tugs on the heart strings far more. And obviously it was a club that was, I could have fallen apart, as Dave said, and it was in the FA Cup where they actually were reborn in some ways. Yeah, I think I'll go for that one. Okay. See, they've got me a really difficult situation in case. If anybody says pick it first 25 and it's just the FA Cup history, I don't think I've got to put Jimmy Murphy in there. And after even Dave's pitch that you think he said, well, why not? Why didn't you put him in there? You idiot, because he should be in there. I think Bill Nicholson in the 60s, three times three FA Cup between the 60s when the trial of his was spread about so much, when like nowadays, well, you know, there's three or four clubs in to dominate trophies. I mean, 60s for such a revolutionary river, different teams within titles and FA Cup. So, the only thing that's said is to have very exceptional success. I think the problem I have with with the Nicholson comparative vanger is seven times on must one final. And it's difficult to see going forward. Anybody getting more than seven FA Cup final victories. I mean, you might have to worry all of your status there from the five years, but that's not going to happen. This is so difficult. I mean, I'm going to put the old Nick to one slide because I mean, I think compared to vendor, he just sort of shared look. I think I'm going to go with anger. I think I'm just going to go with them just for the sheer volume of success. But Dave, you really got to make these difficult decisions when you pick these guys out of nowhere to these brilliant pitches. I'm going to go with anger because I just think that's that the success he had over a long period of status across a decade. Decided more, you know, to ridiculous and the success he had there. So I'm going to go with anger. So that's the Fi Cup selections. So on the amount of wish more, these football times meant wish more FA Cup. I'm only meant to our Bell Trotman as a goalkeeper, manager, Marion Dinn as the defender, running Radford. Sorry, I feel clear. Ian Rush, you know, okay, Stevie, as the forward and Arsenal finger as the manager. So just like some massive thanks to the guys, you know, it's very easy for me to sit here and sort of pick the sort of best pitches, but you know, these guys did all the research and the hard work. So Massey, thanks. Thanks to you, buddy. And I'm sorry, you had a few new castle kicks in the teeth. But you know, this is what I come here for. I'm just punching back. Yeah, come here 30 bites. Stay for the kicks. So I hope it wasn't too bad. All good. Now thoroughly enjoyed as usual. Thanks, buddy. Dave, I mean, as always, as always, mate, the left field selection just blow my mind sometime, buddy. So massive thanks to you, buddy, and your research and the way you approach these things made as joy as everybody. Thank you. I think what we've what we've proved between the four of us is the FA Cup is the greatest competition in any sport. No doubts. No doubts, buddy. I mean, absolutely right. And Stevie, thanks, buddy. I mean, massive thanks to you, buddy. And thank you for not going totally all red and well done on Ian Rush, mate. Oh, no problem. I'll say even if you've gone Stan Mortensen, I wouldn't have had any arguments whatsoever there. Like I said earlier on, you know, the FA Cup was forever long to win. When I was a kid, you could have picked that. You could have just done it like a snow globe, and it could have been any selection of those. They were all fantastic nominations. Yeah, true, matey. I mean, I mean, much like so many things that my selections are setting stone. But thanks, buddy. So now that's it's over to you listeners. And we'd love to hear some feedback from you, our audience. Did the guys met the good choices and convinced the pages for their selections? Who do we miss out? Stanley Matthews, perhaps that should have been considered. And of course, did the judge met the right decisions? Of course, I did. Of course, I did. Seriously, though, it'd be great to hear from your thoughts on Twitter or X, as you call these days, just tag @thesefootytimes and #TFTMRD for these football times members will be back to this now. We went to your thoughts. So thanks for listening. We'll catch you next time on the web podcast from these football times. Cheers and bye. 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