These Football Times
A deep dive into all things Newcastle
(upbeat music) - Welcome to The Lob, your home of in-depth coverage and analysis by these football times, a movement of journalism you can trust. Each week, we endeavor to bring you the very best coverage of the game, exploring stories from the past and present, with analysis by expert guests from around the world. Find more about award-winning content online and in print. In the meantime, enjoy the podcast. - Our read-alads and lasses welcome to the Jordy Special Edition of The Lob Podcast. With these football times, I'm Aiden Williams and we're venturing up to the true north of England, through the fog on the time, listening to Lindisfarne and Gaza, and putting on our classic '90s black and white shirts, winding our way up to the cathedral on the hill that is St. James's Park, taking our seat high up in level seven, no doubt, anyone who's made that trip, knows exactly what I'm talking about there. - I've done that a few times. (laughing) - It's where the family enclosure is too, Stephen, so are I. It's magazine time here at these football times, a special one for me. If the clues so far haven't given away, we're talking my very own Newcastle United. They're the focus of our magazine attentions this time around now, while I appreciate none of my fellow potters share my heritage and falling affiliation. This is not, I promise, just gonna be an Aiden Williams monologue in rough Geordie vernacular. I have a couple of colleagues to try and rein me in a little, you've already heard from one of them. He's our very own Cooley Head star, stuck in the 1980s, so I guess he's the Kevin Keegan of the episode for us, Stephen, haven't he? - Good evening, good evening. My girls are purely natural. They are not, they're not permed. Someone said that I was what did they compare me to at the weekend before the Liverpool following day. Like John Power's younger brother, I think I got on Saturday. So yeah, I can be the Keegan of the show. I'm happy with that. - Yeah, well, you have a foot in both Keegan camps in this country anyway, don't you? So that sounds about right. And also we have an FA Cup obsessive who thinks the competition was far better. In the past, what could be more Newcastle United than that? - He is very much under instruction to only discuss 1950s Cup exploits. Nothing bad that happened in the '70s. Dave, we'll see how that goes. Good evening. - Yes, that's not going to last for very long, is it? It's somebody whose clue is never ever going to get a TFT magazine. It's nice to be talking about at least a team in strikes. (laughing) - This is the closest we're going to get. (laughing) Okay, then so the magazine itself will be out in the second of January featuring the usual mix of fabulous artwork and features all with a magnificent black and white hue. Just to run through what is in the magazine, we have early 20th century glory. We have to go back that far, sadly, yes. Early 20th century glory and the Great Huey Gallagher, the first iconic Newcastle number nine. Then we move on to Jackie Millburn in the 1950s FA Cup successes. And the FAs Cup of 1968, '69. And then all that success suddenly disappears. So we have to discuss other things from that point on. There's Alan Kennedy interview talking of Cup runs as well from the 1970s. There's a piece on the '80s Mavericks of Waddle Beasley and Gascoigne, who all obviously disappeared off elsewhere for their real peaks, sadly. There's two penned by yours truly here about the time and where Darby, very parochial, a very one-sided piece, I'm sure you will not be surprised to hear. And also I delve into Keegan's entertainers. There's separate pieces on Cult Hero of Tiero Aspria. There's Alan Shearer. There's a sort of Bobby Robson era. Lon Robert even gets a piece in here, a bit of a cult status and a crazy fun piece it says here in my notes. So there we go. We'll see how that one comes over. There's more modern stuff about the PIF takeover and Eddie Howe and the current era, as well as Odes to St James's Park and the greatest Newcastle kits. Now obviously I am purely biased, but the greatest modern kit of the Premier League era is very much a Newcastle United one. Anyway, plenty to get stuck into there. Now we are a club that's had to live in the past quite a lot as that list. It goes on about certainly if we want to talk of anything approaching actual glory. League champions a few times, believe it or not, in the early 20th century. FA Cup heroes repeatedly in the 1950s and then that European glory in the late 60s and then well, not a lot since then. Now, Steven, you have written about the 1950s FA Cup successes I believe and Newcastle won the Cup three times in five years. At that stage, I think that was a run that was only bettered by some of the real pioneering days of the tournament where not very many teams took part. I guess recent seasons have seen some of the usual suspects winning with similar regularity, but back then that was quite the big achievement, I think, in that era, wasn't it? It was indeed, you know, fascinated. Oh, there's always been something that catches the eye. You know, when you run, you know, you finger down the winners of the FA Cup in the day, certainly days before the Premier League kicked it, you know, when it was truly kind of anyone's game. And, you know, like Bolton in the 1920s, no standout because there they are with three wins in the '20s and then Newcastle going to do it in the '50s. You know, taught them in the '60s, you know, back to back '61, '62, but again, in '67. You know, so there's something quite, you know, that draws you towards, you know, what was it about that team that made them so successful in a very difficult competition to win? It's not a tournament, it's a competition. Cups are competitions they're not on. So we'll get that straight as well in my article, which does run to about 6,000 words. You'll be glad to know, I mean. So within that, yeah, you know, this team, you know, the name Jackie Milburn, you know, has been one I've known for years, but to be able to kind of like get into that, I don't know about that, that kind of peel off the layers, basically, to find out who he was and just how good he was and what type of player he was and how that team played. It's the Rebleedo brothers, it's, you know, it's all of these things. You know, it's Bobby Mitchell on the wing learning about these players. So it's one of these articles where I've been able to learn as a go at the same time. There's things that I knew, there's things that I didn't know. And it's fascinating how it progresses. And, you know, the fact that Newcastle come out of the Second World War as a Second Division club, reach the semi-finals before winning promotion. So they've had this kind of like, you know, run at it, like landing on the moon, going round the moon, not landing. And then coming back, you know, that's 1948, '49, it was our '47, '48. And then to go on and beat Matthew's Blackpool in 1951, you know, it is a stunning achievement for a team that's recently out of the Second Division. You know, against a team that's got, you know, the icon of Matthews and Mortensen and Perry and all of those great names of that Blackpool era involved with them, who have recently played an FA Cup file, you know, themselves, and Manchester United, I think, '48. So, you know, that they had all of the pedigree and Newcastle, you know, when they reached the final in '51, it's the first time in '19 years that they've done so, you know. So, you know, they're a rising force again. You know, they've known great days, but at that point in time, it's Blackpool and the real deal, rather than Newcastle going into that final. And it's fascinating to plot the path to the final, which, you know, you know, it's an early tale of being part of that side for Newcastle as well, and, you know, who goes on to move to Blackpool and win the Cup again in '53 in that Matthews final, even to go on and play for Manchester United post, post Munich in the 1958 final, a special dispensation, I think, given to and to go and play for Manchester United. That, you know, will be part of that team that reaches the '58 Cup final, loses to Bolton. But yeah, that Newcastle side to go and retain the Cup in '52 as well. June, and those, you know, kind of June seasons of consistency in the league as well. So, you know, the fact that he is a Newcastle that are, you know, very much on an even kill, more than just on an even kill, the proven themselves in the very early 1950s as being, you know, suddenly the, not new money as such, but the, you know, the, it's a new rise of a familiar, a familiar entity, basically. But they put themselves into the mix of things very, very impressively. And when they retain the Cup in '52, well, the first team to do so since Blackburn Rovers in the, you know, the 1890s, 60 years have passed. No team has retained the FA Cup in 60 years at this point in time when Newcastle go and do it, and they beat Arsenal in the '52 final. You know, prior to Newcastle winning 51 Arsenal last team to win the FA Cup, you know, they'd beaten some team from Merseyside in the 1955, which may or may not play in bed, although didn't play in bed at Wembley that day. So, yeah, you know, this achievement in winning the Cup in '52 is pretty phenomenal as well, although beat against 10 man Arsenal in the end because they lose Wally Barnes. So, you know, no substitutes and all of that type of stuff. But this is still the fascination of that final is that it's quite Arsenal going down to 10 men for much of the game. It's Arsenal that go on the front foot because they've got nothing else they can do. They've just got to go for it. And Newcastle have to, you know, play this, kind of absorb the pressure and hit on the break. And it makes it for a fascinating rather than the classic final. People were going to, you know, were billing it as potentially to be. But once I'm easing about that and a lot go too much into it, you know, because you want people to read the article, but it's Newcastle's run to that final as well is a treacherous one. There's Arsenal included. They play four teams, four first division teams that finish above that season in the league, you know, a season which they finish eighth, you know, a creditable eighth and a really competitive first division, you know, four of the teams that they have to face down on that run finish above the, you know, four of the seven teams to finish up on the league that year. And it's a phenomenal achievement to go and do that. And then it was fascinating as well on picking the 54 55 side, which is wildly different. You know, there's still some familiar faces in there, but just finding what was a surprise to me was find out just how dysfunction on Newcastle have become at that point in time. You know, there's a, you know, a flirtation with relegation the previous couple of seasons, but there's a lot of churn at Newcastle at that point in time. So, you know, many of the players who've been part of the 51 and 52 cut went inside have moved aside. And then you've got this fresh set of players almost with a few familiar faces in there. And the fact that, you know, the the managerial turnover as well as that, you know, Stan Seymour, who's everything at Newcastle because he's been an FA Cup winning player back in the day. And then he's been, he's been coach, he's been manager, he's been director, selector, and then eventually chairman by the time the 55 cut final comes along. And, you know, he's a successor as manager. It's a fellow called a doogled living stone. Someone who's coached, you know, Belgium at the 1954 World Cup, he's coach Sparta Rotter. So he comes with his, with his expansive continental ideas, which is fascinating to read through, when you come and, you know, you read through match reports from that season and the way that they are. It's a season in which they are the highest score of the joint highest scores in the first division, yet no one in the top half of that division concedes more than Newcastle. And there's only four teams in the bottom half that concede more than the, which, which again, it's kind of like a prototype of many of the new castles that will come later up in that, you know, all and nothing at the same time kind of effect. Yet they, the blunder their way through almost through that 1954 55 FA Cup, which just makes that such an alluring success because they could have gone out on several occasions yet stumble the way through playing the third division north side in the semi final as well. You know, and it's just, it's a run that's got absolutely everything. And then in the end, the, the rough against Manchester City side have the Reavy plan, you know, and all of that, you know, and it is, it's, you know, what they do is, is quite phenomenal to win those three FA cups within such a short space of time. And it is, I mean, even beyond that, you know, the fact that that plot line of worthy go after that, you know, which should I'm not going into with the article because it ended up being 12,000 words for when to did that. But for me, you know, I've been fascinated plotting that route through the 50s and the complexities and the layers of it as well, which is why it ends up running to such a ludicrous, you know, word count is so much in it that you can't leave out, you have to, you have to put in because it's massively relevant to the way that team changes, yet the success continues and Milburn's part in that from being, you know, this metronomic striker, you know, sometimes played on the wing to being, you know, on the brink of being dropped for the 55 final, if living stone had been allowed to have his way, you know, seem all on the board veto in them, basically. And to score 45 seconds into that, that 1955 final as way of repost, basically, you know, it's, it's an amazing era for Newcastle, yet it is massively layered. And it's one of those great stories that it's kind of, I don't know, there's, I think there's a lot of parts of that that many people who think, you know, the football, who are a clue himself in that in writing research in this article is just, just not knowing, you know, about it. And it's been a joy to write. Oh, fantastic. And obviously, Jackie Milburn, who are Jackie is, as he's known in these parties, he's one of the few people to have a statue outside St James, and that obviously harks back to this era, the successes, the few successes that this club has had in, well, which I say post-Second World War era, prior to that, it was a little more regular. But yeah, it's a fascinating time. And the photos of this time, these cup trimes are, you see them pinned up in bars and pubs around the city still, because there's been so little to follow it, of course. But that does mean that the iconic names and players of that era are still quite fresh to mind without, as you say, knowing the full detail very well. I think a lot of people aren't familiar with how it all came about beyond knowing that Jackie Milburn scored a lot, scored early. And we were synonymous with FA Cup success at that period. And Dave, you know, I'm sure from your studies of FA Cup's past, it's interesting to think that the club probably still is or feels sort of synonymous with the FA Cup despite it all being so long ago. I think there's a fan base too. This has led to a general feeling that the cup is really something important, despite our various ownership not seeing it that way at times, that it's a special thing. You've stolen about the first half of those and padded after my article. I think that is the case. As I grew up, born in '64, sort of growing up through the the cup finals of the '70s. Newcastle were always one of those teams when the third round draw came out and they, you know, and hear the odds now. And Newcastle were always a team that were one of the favourites doing it because they had that success in the '50s. And, you know, it was 20 years before, but I think once you establish that pedigree in the FA Cup, you know, and three, three cup wins in five years is out of the ordinary, less out of the ordinary these days, perhaps, but, you know, back when football was football, it was really out of the ordinary. And that's always meant that Newcastle is one of those teams that's sort of blessed by the FA Cup and will always be in the conversation about the FA Cup, you know. I mean, here we go again this season, Bromley, you know, in January and the third round, the start of another cup and all the way to Wembley, perhaps. I don't know, but you get that, when the third round draw comes, you get that feel, Newcastle are one of those teams that should be there, that should be in the conversation. And I do remember, I think I do remember, anyway, in '74, sitting down for the Cup final, and there was the grainy pictures, the pathway news, footage of those Cup finals in the early '50s that were on the BBC, warm up to the final, and I think Jackie Melbourne, whether it was on the day or in the days leading up to the Cup final, you know, he was there talking about it in various interviews and stuff. And that's what I've always thought of Newcastle as, even, you know, in the in the Keegan era when they were chasing the Premier League, and so Newcastle are a cup team. That's what they are. Now, the future may have something different, obviously, with the new ownership and stuff if they're ever allowed to spend any money. But Newcastle will always be a cup team. Yeah, it's like what you were saying, I think, both you were saying on the the '80s series, you know, I mean, you think Chelsea is a second division football team, which better days. But sorry, Gary. We can dream. But, you know, that's kind of what you grow up with, isn't it? That's what you, you know, that stays with you for event. For me, Newcastle is one of those teams that should be getting to the latter stages of the Cubs and being in Cup finals. And that because it is that period that they've been driving about is what sort of made Newcastle a special team in that post-war era, and you'll never get away from it. And of course, John Lennon put one of those cup finals on the cover of 'Walls and Bridges'. So, you know, that's another added point. But definitely right. I think from the fan base perspective, Newcastle fans are just desperate for atrophy. We don't care what. It's been so, so long. And like we were talking off air earlier, some of the clubs who have won things in the time since Newcastle United have. Many of them are vastly, vastly smaller outfits than Newcastle and far less resource, even in Newcastle's lean times. Some of the clubs who've managed to achieve success that Newcastle haven't. And, you know, everyone's realistic enough to know that a cup is the most likely path to that kind of glory. The league title is 'Some Way Beyond'. Who knows maybe in the future? Or, you know, we can all look at a year. It maybe should have happened a quarter of a century or so ago. But the Cubs, either cup, is the most likely path to some glory. And then, yeah, it just makes a pleasing change in modern times that actually they are trying to do that again and focusing on trying to be successful in the Cubs. But we shall see how that goes. So when you mentioned it briefly there, Dave, you wrote about the '74 Cup Run from Alan Kennedy's perspective. A theme for Alan Kennedy, I guess, is the several in the decade that followed of local boys who played with their local club, or one of the local clubs to them, and then had to disappear off elsewhere for their real glory. But he had his moments with Newcastle. It was a hell of a campaign, that one. Yeah, the '74 Cup Run. I mean, although it didn't end the way that one of you would have wanted and the way that one of you would have wanted. I mean, it's one of those great epic stories. I mean, it starts with ending, getting the draw at St. James's Park, and then, you know, ending a non-league club, decent non-league club, but that's what I was thinking. I'd won the F-I vase, or the child field, whatever it was in the years leading up to it. And I'm not going to mention this again, honestly, but, you know, just a couple of years on from that day. You had to go there. I did have to go there. There was an embargo on this. No, I didn't hear me out. Alan Kennedy was going to go to the, to the game, at areahood. And he went, he went down the first one, which was postponed. He was halfway down to the second one when that got postponed. And the third one, he was playing for Newcastle's youth team on the, so he couldn't go. And he was so pleased that he couldn't go. But he said, you know, when, when they got ended in the court, there were still players from that team. Obviously, it's still there. And he said, you know, there was, there was this trepidation amongst the, amongst the suggestion of it. Oh my God, it's not going up like anything. And of course, they got to draw at St. James's and they applied the replay at Watford at Victory Drowdon and make us all walked it and went through. It's a contour, you know, I think that had to go to a replay as well before the, the beat, the beat's contour. And then they played at the Albion in the fifth round. And I remember that game like it was yesterday. I mean, it's one of the games that made it a huge impression of me for all sorts of reasons. But, I mean, it was a proper 1970s FA Cup type pitch. I mean, it was like, you know, it was just what everywhere. It was a played field. It was horrendous. And I mean, people, people in the ground, stuff I've spoken to at the Albion weather. And he said, you know, they've said nine o'clock, the place was a wash with Jordies at nine o'clock in the morning before the game, you know, the ground was absolutely swamped by Newcastle supporters, which again, you know, says everything about that tradition of the FA Cup, you know, they'd come down to make sure that they got it in the ground on the day. And I'll be wearing the second division at that time. And Alan Kennedy said to me that he missed that game, but the players had said to him and a lot of people around the club, it was the best Newcastle played in the Cup for about 15, 20 years. And I mean, they wiped the floor with the Albion. It was just a demolition. Stuart Barakloff, I remember playing really, really well. John Tud was a great player up front. Good fall from Alcoma McDonald's School as well. And then you're into the sixth round. And when you're in the sixth round, and particularly, if you're a club like Newcastle, that's when you start to get the smell of it. And, you know, 20 or 20 years on no FA Cup since then. But only five years since the FA Cup. So, you know, it's still successful. I'd still knew what winning was. And if I had nothing of forest in the second division at all, and the day didn't go well, really. I mean, St James's was absolutely rammed to the rafters. And Alan Kennedy was on the bench. And Forest played really well. And they were winning 3-1, but after about an hour, they got a penalty. And Pat Howard had been sent off, scored the penalty 3-1. And Alan Kennedy was saying, you know, I was looking around, and they were banging on the top of the dugout, and there were, you know, there was going to be some trouble here. And he said, I looked on my left, and there was this big, this big fella in a big jacket. And he said to come on, that's what we're going on. And everybody just followed this fella onto the pitch. And it was, it was 9am. I think it took 20 minutes to clear the pitch. For these dogs, the works, it was a proper 1970s bonfire. That's exactly what you want. All the things that people say, we don't want to see this kind of thing. Oh, yes, we do. That's exactly what we want to say. And they'd come back to the dressing room, obviously, for 20 minutes. They were sitting there all feeling miserable. And Alan Kennedy said, all of a sudden, John Tudor said, we can still win this. And everybody was laughing at him, basically. And don't be silly. We rubbish here. We're getting murdered. We've gotten out here. No, no, we can still win this. Kennedy came on when they came back out. And they turned around, Bobby Moncker, that scored a second fairly quickly. And then Bobby Moncker scored late on as well, I think. It was about two yards offside on the Kennedy set. But there was no way that the referee was going to say, and that won four through it. There was still about two minutes ago. The referee, as soon as Bobby Moncker's goal went in, blew the final result right off we go. And that was it. And that won four through. They were through at the semiphone, except then, of course, the inquest was, you can't have a team, you know, you can't have a pitching value. And when you're losing three, one. And then the team got through. So there were all kinds of shenanigans. Because with the game, I've been played to a finish. There was nothing the FA could do until Forrest asked for the game to be an old. So that game doesn't exist any longer in the record books. It was an old. So they they played it again, and they played it at Goodison Park on neutral turf rather than it changes. And it was a draw. And after that was a draw, they had to replay at Goodison Park as well. God knows what Forest would have had to have done to have had a game played at the city ground. But anyway, a Newcastle finally came through and they're in the semiphone, and they played Burnley, and they were in, they're in good Nick Bynet, Newcastle, they went away to Bookston, and they went days in advance on a jolly, basically. I mean, they were drinking away. And enjoying themselves for two or three days. And he said it was the the Midland Hotel in Bookston, which is on the hill as you come into the town in Bookston. And they went on the Friday night. Joe obviously said, right, okay, we're going to be serious now, because we're playing tomorrow, like, in a cup semiphone. They all had dinner together, and they were sitting there having dinner together. And he said, there was this this old lady at the piano playing tiptoe through the tulips. Well, Newcastle United's 20 year olds desperate for a point. We were all laughing there having a dinner listening to this. They went out and they played, and they beat Burnley, beat uncomfortable. Cup final, Liverpool. They could answer London on the Monday. You can imagine, you know, five days away from our, you know, in a hotel, well, that went. But that was kind of an epiphany, really, for Canada, because I mean, Newcastle were exactly how I would say probably 90 of the 92 clubs would have behaved that week. You know, going to the cup final. Probably Liverpool and they united with the only ones that wouldn't have behaved like this. But, you know, Newcastle was a bit of a jolly, and then there was the football writers dinner on the Thursday. All of the Newcastle team went, two of the Liverpool team went, and Ian Gallad, who won the bloody award. So Liverpool were all at the hotel getting prepared. And that was kind of the moment. He thought, well, I want to do something with my career here, and they're doing it the right way. And that was, you know, two or three years later down the line, he moved on to Liverpool. But that's kind of a fault line, isn't it? You know, in professional football at that point, that's it. Because everybody would have been like Newcastle, and they were all fascinated by the player's pool, and Malcolm of Donald had got a boutique, and he'd sorted out black and white check suits for them all, and God knows where else. Whereas Liverpool, everything was, you know, completely ordered. That is covered on the Thursday afternoon, then, going to track suits for Newcastle. So they ended up, I mean, you know, if you haven't seen it go on YouTube for the footage, because the purple things that they come out in are a sight to behold. I mean, they are unbelievable. Apparently they had got there, they'd have some tracks set initially, and they were made of tolling material with flares, which actually would have been even worse than the ones that they wore in the finish. But that was kind of how it was. You know, that was the Newcastle one, which would have been the way of, you know, the Albion, it would have been the way of Manchester City, it would have been the way of most clubs. And then Liverpool were there in the, you know, the proper stuff. And, you know, we all know what the Cup final was like. After Malcolm of Donald had promised to turn Phil Thompson and Emily News inside out and score half a dozen goals, and all of that. And poor old Alan, he was, I think, what was he, 19, 19, and then the day they got fun, they went to the, they always used to go to the hotel, and they'd talk to the players before the game. And so that kind of, it was, I think he was one of the first to talk. And I said, Southern Alan got fun all day. What are you thinking about coming up against Tommy Smith? And he said, I didn't, I just didn't expect the question. I didn't know what this half wrote. So I said, who's Tommy Smith? Which, I can't imagine, went there in particular, in the little hotel. And of course, in the Finnish, Tommy Smith, embarrassed him in the last couple of minutes, we were playing the one, two running for the, for the third goal. But it, it just is a microcosm of that whole 1970s. I mean, you're saving in that, the 70s, we talked about the Mavericks and the clubs were Mavericks as well, in a while. There was, there was none of that professionalism that, that was to come later on, and the attention to data. It was all very much off the cuff. It's, I mean, Alan Kennedy is a fantastic talker. He's a, he's a great interviewee, you know. And it was an absolute pleasure talking to him. But it's just the time capsule, that whole thing is, is a time capsule. And there's, there's lots of good stuff in the Finnish Castle fans. Don't worry. It's, it's kind of, you know, there's a lot to enjoy in there, but it is kind of a caution retail as well, I suppose. Well, yeah, absolutely. And that, that's the beauty of first-hand accounts like that, isn't it? Of pulling back the curtain somewhat to knowing exactly what it was like compared to the bits that we see on our TV screens and just how exactly how it was. It's fascinating. So that's, that'll be a brilliant one to look at. No, Stephen Dave alluded to it there, that Newcastle had won something only a few years before that as well. It's a fact probably easy forgotten to history for those outside of the city in many ways. Newcastle were one of the earlier English successes in European competition, which is something we cling to massively because that's the last success. A trophy lifted by Bobby Moncker, a defensive captain and goal scorer on that occasion as well in a rare situation. He's, he's also famously better known in, in my family as the next-door neighbour to my brother-in-law, who were crossing gatehead, but that's, that's another story. But yeah, Newcastle in Europe, Stephen, it was, you know, your air of expertise, I'm sure, but, you know, quite a ride. That one was. Yeah, you know, rightly proud of that, I think. You know, it was a wondrous, you know, for English clubs and in that particular competition, I mean, you're throwing man United when the European Cup in 60, 80 years to sell to become the first British side to, to, to have been, you know, well, big ears. But yeah, the first cup, very much. At that point in time as well, the team's taking it far more seriously than they had done at the outset of it, the late 50s into the early 60s, you know, and, and that wild kind of remit that it had in, in, in being associated to trade furs and, you know, representative teams from cities, rather than just clubs as such. But by the time you castle on in, in, in 69, you know, it's very much the UEFA Cup to, to be, it's not, UEFA won't have it that it's the, you know, the precursor of the UEFA Cup as such, the official precursor of the UEFA. But it's, it very much is, you know, for me, any team that won the, the first cup, you know, should be seen as, you know, in the same white as a UEFA Cup winner, you know, in a, you know, Europa League winner, you know, since the rebrand. And, you know, Newcastle's success in 60, 69, fresh off the back of Leeds having won it, you know, a year before Arsenal would win it and then Leeds would win it again in 71. You know, the, these were all stepping stones into that, you know, 1970s early 1980s domination that English clubs had in European competition and Newcastle's success in 69, you know, it's, yeah, it's the last major trophy that has won as such. But what a, what a success it was, you know, every, every reason, you know, to, to celebrate that success, you know, Newcastle fans should not be, you know, bashful about that. You know, this, this was one of the three major European competitions of its era and very much, you know, for shadowing the UEFA Cup, you know, it's, it's way up there for me, you know, and Newcastle fans should very much, you know, embrace that, you know, if they don't, you know, why not, you know, they certainly should do. That success was, was, was, was a huge one, you know, and Frank Clark being part of that as well, you know, and, and that I think, you know, who will go on to win a European Cup in an off-to-forest year, you know, a decade later, and part of that 74 Cup final sign for Newcastle. And, and yeah, you know, Monka, so few goals for, for Newcastle, yeah, I think it's two, three scores and, and the first Cup final, no over the two legs. And, and I think it's fantastic as well, because it's got that, it's got that mystique of, I don't think any of us know totally, no, just who each bestie were, and, and, and still probably are today. And, and I think there's, there's something special about those Eastern European clubs and the fact that, that, that association to that game, now comes against the team that's, that's mysterious and has that little bit of, you know, je ne sais quoi, you know, I, I think adds to that roster. And, and yeah, Newcastle success and the, in the first Cup in 69 is, I think one of Newcastle's greatest achievements. Well, we certainly do cling on to it, Stephen, not just because it's the last thing that Newcastle won. However many years ago, that was now, it's more than 50, that much, I know, 55 quick calculation, deary me. That's a long, long time. Now, we've had mention of various players, Maverick characters and so on. David has talked about Malcolm Mcdonald briefly. I know you love him really, Dave, but we've, you know, there's also the likes of Huey Gallagher back in the day, another adopted Jody, probably in his case, because he then lived in Gateshead long after his playing days. And sadly died there too. There was Melbourne in the 50s, of course. And then there's the local stars of the 80s, which I think is a really interesting time, an interesting set of players. Obviously, we had Kevin Keegan, the player between 82 and 84. And the second division, now his arrival as a European or former European player of the year, he'd obviously moved from Hamburg to Southampton, but then took a step down to come to Newcastle United. And I think as much as he was reaching the end of his time, he had been part of England's World Cup squad that summer. He still fought. He had a chance of being part of the England squad going forward as well. So he wasn't totally ending his career at that point when he arrived, but it was still a bit of a leap of faith, I guess, for him. But in many ways, it was a return home as much as he's not from Newcastle. His family is largely from that area. And he was a Newcastle fan as a child, which I think is something that his accent hides probably from many people's realization or recollection. But that was very much the case. So that played a huge part. And obviously would do so in the following decade when he reappeared again. But he then inspired the club as a player, but then had the likes of Chris Waddell and Peter Beardsley alongside him initially and inspired both of them to take up his mantle after he'd been helicopter out of there at the end of the 84 season. And then Paul Gasco on the court. Of course, so, Stephen, I'll come to you again, because you're our 80s expert. That's quite a trio to come through at the club in that time. And I just imagine if the club itself in that time had the wear with all the ambition, the foresight to actually be able to build on these hugely talented local players that they they'd unearthed and developed in a couple of that cases, Beardsley had been elsewhere and come back. But I guess it's a question of it's a case of what might have been really, isn't it? It is no time and there's everything in football and be able to put a team like that together and have the right man in charge. And there's so much to it that I don't think we all necessarily comprehend, really. It's why you will get eras of, I think most teams, every team probably can point towards a season or so where it was kind of like what might have been that glorious style of play. And it will be fleeting for some clubs. And yeah, you know, about that Newcastle rise of the 1980s from a pretty desperate place as well. I think that's what's impressive about that is just how desperate a place Newcastle got themselves into after relegation 78. You know, 77, the finished I think fifth qualified for the UEFA Cup. The season went down 77-78. They played UEFA Cup football, went out to Bastia, who reached the final that year, 77-78. Alan Kennedy before mentioned Alan Kennedy part of that Newcastle side that went down 77-78 and moved on to Liverpool. But yeah, between kind of relegation 78 and the arrival of Keegan in 82, you know, there were some dark times for Newcastle, you know, financially in a bad way. The ground, you know, starting to look at age at that point in time. A lot going against Newcastle, you know, and to bring in Keegan in 82 was this massive shot in the arm that just galvanised the club. And they did not add a bad 80 right at Emory Varadis score and goals are plenty. And there were reasons to be more cheerful than any of the previous three years, probably. So for Keegan to come along and galvanise matters and then, you know, critters, Chris Waddall and, you know, the arrival of Peter Beersley had wanted so desperately to play for the club. You know, the return of Terrimat Dermatu lost his way at Liverpool and suddenly the chemistry 82-83, going into 83-84 was just, it's magnetic. And this is where Newcastle, you know, become kind of everyone's favourite second team if you're allowed to have a second team. You know, I think, you know, there was so, so, so visible as well at that point in time. You know, if you remember card, the Grenada region and we'd have our own version of, you know, ITV Sunday afternoon highlights. And so often, you know, we'd get our game from the region and then it'd be kind of like one or two games plucked from other parts of the region like what happened across the ITV network. Yet so often Newcastle had been involved because of Keegan, because of McDermott, and the style of play. And it was all very swashbuckling and it was, you know, just letting rip. And again, it was that, I don't know, it leaned into the new castles of the past in that respect. Now, we mentioned that Newcastle side of 54-55, that when the FA cut via dysfunction. And again, you know, this is that kind of new castle again. And it's just the way that, you know, for that new castle, how the stars aligned in that way that they did in 83-84, in a very, very competitive second division that year, you know, packed full of very, very good teams. So, you know, it was an adventurous style of play. It caught the imagination and people wanted them to prosper. There were Sunderland fans aside, obviously, you know, when we mentioned a little bit of this. And this is where that, I don't know, that admiration that people will have for Newcastle. You know, we've said that 55 years since they've won a major trophy, they were certainly nearly 70 years since they've won a domestic trophy. Yet Newcastle still managed to hold this through all of people. And, you know, I said before, we started recording that, no, no matter what, anyone will think of a specific era of Newcastle, you know, whether you agree with the contemporary version of them, the owners and all that jars in that respect. It still doesn't take away that for the vast majority of us football watchers, there's a new castle at some point in your life that you've just absolutely loved and you've wanted to prosper. It's that 895-96 version of Bobby Robson's version, of that 80s version with Keegan that they're not waddled and beardsly. You know, you're willing the month to achieve whatever that, you know, mountain was that they were trying to climb. And that 80s side, ticked the box under Arthur Cox and yes, they win. And then so new castle of them to go and win promotion and Keegan, you know, retires. But then off goes Arthur Cox and incomes, Jack Chilton, and it becomes much more pragmatic and less likable. Even for the players involved themselves, let alone independent watchers from a distance who, you know, have no, you know, support of the club as such. They just admired what they were doing and loved the style of play and were glad to see them back. And then suddenly it wasn't that that new castle of the end of the 83-84 season that were coming back into the 1st Division. It was Jack Chilton's first new castle in 84-85 and it was a very different prosper. But yeah, you know, that 82-84 new castle were just such fun to watch and you wanted them to do well. Oh, yes. But another false dawn, of course, one amongst many. Now, those players, of course, very iconic and gaskical and who followed on a little later. But we all know my thoughts on Miradina and so on was there. We don't need to delve any further. Iconic mavericks, I guess, as popular as ever on Tyneside, I don't know whether that's, it's probably not unique to new castle at all. But who doesn't love to be entertained, I suppose, by the mercurial and the frustrating stars capable of so much skill and in few or 18s as well. This magazine features Tino Asprea, who certainly fits that category, Lauren Reber as well. But you could add in the people like David Genoa later on, being equally superb and frustrating. And maybe the likes of Alan St. Maxillum in more recent times fits that build closer, more than equivalent. But then I think there's the goal scorers and again, maybe cliche clacks and the whole thing about the new castle number nine. I don't know whether that's just a thing for new castle fans or whether it is a thing at all. Maybe you guys can help on that front. But, you know, you go through the years, we mentioned Huey Gallagher, Jackie Milburn, there's Malcolm Gold, of course, Keegan himself. Great goal scorers, Andy Cole then comes along. And there's my personal favorite Newcastle striker, Sir Lesford and of course, and then there's Alan Shearer to top it off. Now, from my perspective, I guess, for all Shearer is untouchable in terms of goal scoring prowess. I always had the affinity. I really love Ferdinand despite him only being with the club for two seasons. But I guess it's what happened in that time and what he brought, which made him so popular. We lost Andy Cole a few months before fearing a return to the old selling ways, but then Ferdinand arrives and we stepped up another level. This was a new experience for many new castle fans and quite a revelation his year alongside cheer as well. And his second season had some remarkable moments too. The two of them seemingly complementing each other rather than getting each other's way, which is how it could have turned out, I suppose. But it was a short time. But, you know, to be clear, I do think Shearer is obviously absolutely superb as well. Let's not misunderstand that. But the fact he opted to come home rather than make a pact with with the Red Devil adds to that certainly he wanted to fulfill his dream. And while medals would have been nice, I am sure his dream was of being Newcastle number nine and there's something to be admired about that. I think, although I guess at the time he arrived Newcastle was very much challenging for medals. But yes, Ferdinand's the one who I seem to have closer to my heart for some reason. But Dave, am I just stuck in my Geordie bubble of this Newcastle number nine thing or is it a thing? No, I think it is. It is a thing that certainly when I was growing up, it was. I mean, it probably goes back to the Jackie Melbourne era. Malcolm McDonald was seeing a sort of following in that around the '74 and then obviously, you know. And I think going back to what Stephen was saying, that's why people have always got a soft spot for Newcastle because there is that goal score that, you know, people love a centre forward. And Newcastle have had a lot of, what I suppose you call these, old-fashioned centre forwards. I mean, you know, there's Ferdinand in that sense is an old-fashioned centre forward, you know, rampaging up front and knocking people out the way and winning fantastic headers and all that. She was similar mould. And I think that is a big thing about Newcastle, Newcastle. I mean, you're bouncing in front of the famous four threes and stuff. Newcastle was always a guarantee of goals at both ends. And, you know, if Newcastle were on match of the day or if you got him on Star Soccer as the second game, by and large, you knew it was going to be entertaining. You didn't know what was going to happen through, you know, certainly through the '70s, the '80s. And then obviously you'll talk about Keegan's entertainers and stuff later. But that's always what Newcastle has been about, you know. And Jack Charlton, that didn't seem right when Jack Charlton went there, you know, after, you know, we know Jack Charlton played the game. Newcastle were always, were always the entertaining kind and, you know, going back to the stuff I said about Allen Kennedy. Sometimes it was entertaining in a comical way. And sometimes it was that swashbuckling rampage in new score four, wheel score five kind of way. Yeah, I mean, in some sense it, although it didn't work when he was up there, Aussie idealist was the perfect Newcastle manager. Because that's exactly what he was all about. He went, again, wrong place, wrong time. But, you know, in another era, Aussie idealist might have been the perfect Newcastle manager because he geeked. That's, that, from afar, that's the kind of way I think a lot of people think about Newcastle and why people have got affection for him. But definitely that number, the number nine thing is a big thing. And, you know, she wouldn't have had such a big something that's about having it off less Ferdinand if he hadn't meant something, you know, elsewhere. I think it's, you know, it's one of those trademark things in football, the Newcastle one, but definitely. Yeah, that's the irony, of course, that was the most complex part of the world record transfer fee, or transfer of Alan Shearer from Blackburn was the negotiation with Lesford and happened for the number nine shirt. But yeah, that's, the two of them together was just magnificent. Obviously Shearer has gone on and gone several levels beyond any other Newcastle striker, of course, but when the two of them were together, that was briefly fantastic. Anyway, we're moving on off the field to, to managers, or managers here is anyway, the magazine touches on the Keegan years, of course, as well as those of Sir Bobby and a bit around the recent times with Eddie Howe in charge. For me though, the Keegan years, well, where to go, they were the most incredible time as a Newcastle fan. Now, I know I've talked about this on various podcasts in various ways over the last couple of years, but I have gone to town on it in this magazine, of course. I make no apologies for the length of the piece I've written, although I'm slightly disappointed to discover that Stephen's article has gone slightly longer. Never mind, never mind. What I hope it brings through is the incredible transformational qualities that Keegan brought, something Stephen was alluding to of his playing time in the '82, '84 era, but he really did transform the club more than once, but in spectacular ways. The extent to which he transformed, I think, was obviously even greater as a manager in the 1990s than it had been as a player. For the club to go from the brink of the third tier, the potential financial implosion of the club that that seemed set to bring to then coming oh so close to winning the Premier League, or within the span of just four years, and that's what I find absolutely remarkable about the transformation. It was a very short space of time to go from a club that was on its deathbed, or almost, sinking without a trace within four years, well within two years, being in the Premier League, ripping it up in entertaining style, and within four years, coming so close to winning the whole thing. If you then add in the manner in which it was done, the style of play, the excitement, the entertainment, we as Newcastle fans, we carry along on a roller coaster ride, I guess, of endless thrills and magical moments, and a few disappointing ones too, but you get the ups and the downs, and as you mentioned, even those, not fortunate enough to come from this part of the world, swept along with us as well to some extent. I guess it's another cliche, but it's been alluded to as well as Newcastle being many of the second favourite, and I guess part of this era is when that came about as well. Probably most of the case in the '93, '94 time, when they were purely entertaining, scoring for fun, exciting, scoring at will, I say, cold, beardsly, in particular, it was astonishing strikeweight, but I guess, probably crucially, they weren't a real danger to those at the very top, and that helps people like you, I think. Maybe two years later, that was a little bit different when they were actually challenging, but I would still assume that most neutrals beyond the confines of Manchester, United and Sunderland, of course, were hoping for a new castle trying from the league once their own teams were out of contention anyway, and it wasn't to be, and that's a real shame, but, and this is something I really try to hammer home in the article. To me, a failure to win the league does nothing in my mind at all to diminish Keegan's achievements in this short space of time. It would have been the glitter on the top, but it doesn't lessen the achievement. I think four years to go from such a low to such a high is incredible. The whole club was transformed in that time. The city itself was utterly transformed too, and I think that's something that those not from the area might not realize or see just how much the city became a buzz with excitement. It was as if that excitement brought by the football club had seeped into every aspect of life in Newcastle. It was becoming increasingly more a party town destination as well. During this era, this is also the time of the sporting club project of Sir John Hall, where the rugby club, basketball, and ice hockey, but I guess the football and rugby were the two principal ones were a big thing. The rugby club Vulcans were achieving great success with Rob Andrew as their Kevin Keegan figure. You could be out in town during this era, and in one bar, you're mixing it with the footballers, and then you move next door, and there's a whole world of rugby players just out and about in the town. Maybe they did a bit too much drinking, and maybe that's why things were not bad out now. Anyway, it was an exciting, exciting time, and we had a whole host of heroes from this whole era. If you can go from David Kelly, who is still very much a hero to Newcastle Mines, and his goals would save the club in the early Keegan months to the arrival of Beardsley, then Beresford, and my favourite player of this whole time, Robert Lee. Then Andy Cole is an incredible partnership with Beardsley, the Gillespie fan, Genoa Fili Balbeira, Sbrea, several local stars in the mix as well. It was a remarkable time, and let's not forget it was in the greatest kit of modern times too, but that's another thing. Just to think of that list of players who, only a couple of years earlier, and the idea that Dave was mentioning there, or Jim Smith, before that, to think of some of these players pitching up at St James's, if you'd said the ride that we were about to go on at that time, it had been laughed out of town, it would just been so ludicrous as to be beyond belief. And sure, it would have been great if we'd won the league in 1996, and yes, of course, it hurt when it all went wrong. The home loss to Manchester United, I guess, was the real killer in terms of the shifting momentum and missed opportunity and missed points, I suppose, a six-pointer, ultimately, in the grand scheme of things. Even if the subsequent drama at Anfield that he would park just added to the pain in different ways, but having come so far in such a short space of time, Keegan, to me, can only be considered as a huge success as a manager for Newcastle United. I think people looking in from the outside might not view it that way, because they just see the end point. And to me, that's not fair as a way to assess the overall. I think he is, to Newcastle Farms, he's rightly lauded as our greatest manager of modern times, and beyond that, simply the most influential transformational character on the club, and the club's influence across the city in recent decades. I think that's beyond question. Finishing second in the league doesn't change that one bit. So anyway, that's my black and white perspective on it all, and I expand on that in written form. But for you both, I guess, what are your memories of Newcastle at that time? And from your outside perspectives, how do you view the Keegan managerial era, Steven, I'll come to you? You're not allowed to mention four, three or anything like that. Okay, I won't mention that one. They've got the mention in early on, and as tempting as it is, I'll try and I'll try and I'll do it that way. But yeah, again, they were just so, like you say, so entertaining to watch. They were must watch football at that point in time. They were just so flowing and without fear. I think that's what catches football fans' imaginations, is seeing a team play with that in a confidence that anything is possible here. And that's what Keegan did for Newcastle, to take them from the depth of from the jaws of the third division, which would have been catastrophic for Newcastle. This at a point in time where Middlesbrough, not all that far away, geographically, had gone to the very brink in the mid 1980s with a visit to the third division, Sunderland had dipped in and clawed the way out. And you were looking at that Newcastle and thinking, "Good God, if you end up in there, will you ever come back?" I think that was what a lot of people would think, really. And Keegan had notoriously said that he had no intention of being a football manager. He walked away from football in '84 in terms of a hands-on nature. And until what was it, the February '92, had no intention of being drawn back into the game. He was happy. He was playing golf. He was spending half of his year in Marbella. He had his business interests. He had no need to come back to football. He'd tip up in ITV Studios covering games for them. He was happy with life. Newcastle were the only proposition that would have dragged him back in. I think even Liverpool will come back and they don't think he'd have done it. He loves Liverpool as a footballer, but Newcastle is his passion. He took it on, but not along with him. And it was just this, the word "transformation." He took a leaf or two out of the shankly textbook in that respect, and the way that one individual can galvanise the people that surround him and this, concept germinates, and that infectious nature spreads onto the terraces and onto the pitch, and what the players are doing, what the supporters are doing. Then it becomes an irresistible thing to watch and to be a voyeur of even as an outsider. You kind of swept the way by that. That's what that Newcastle did. They walked into the Premier League a year on from having just missed out, just avoided the third division, and never looked out of place. They hit the floor run. They were so so good, and to have Andy Cole scoring those goals be instantly back. They were just playing some fantastic football, and you can look at the top number of the early 1980s. They've been that entertaining side of our dealers being part of our team, and to what Dave was saying about our dealers, Ricky Veer and Glenn Huddler, and we all loved watching them as we're beyond our own teams. I think that entertaining team will always draw you in in that respect, and that was Keegan's new castle at that point in time, that early to mid 1990s. They were just fantastic to watch, and it was kind of like, even as an outsider, you got joy in that, because I think as a football fan, some football fans can get enjoyment out of a team doing well, and seeing the supporters loving it, because they can relate to that, whether that's kind of like a concept of saying, "We've lived that type of experience," or "we're attaining, we're reaching for our own version of that." They were just such an infectious side in the best possible terms, and losing out on that title in '95, '96, it's Brazil 82, it's all of those type of, in English club form, that's what it is. I don't think there's any other comparable one that I can think of off the top of my head where people would think, "I really wish that team would have won that," but at the same time, it doesn't matter that they didn't, because it doesn't matter that Brazil didn't win the 82 World Cup when it came to it, because of the joy that they gave, and Newcastle the same. I think the only thing that would have been, could have improved that '95, '96 team is that if Newcastle had to fumble, it was another pool that would have taken it instead of Manchester United, because that was just an unpalatable punch line at the end, but for not just Newcastle fans were the nation I'd like to have. Well, yes, and any joke at Manchester United expenses generally fine with me, but that might have been going to step too far that time around. Dave, same question to you, I guess, the thoughts of that time is really, I guess, in modern times is the most remarkable Newcastle era. You probably won't agree, but I think the fact that they didn't win the title is actually better. Yeah, I might struggle with that one. There's something particularly beguiling about the beautiful loser thing that makes it last longer. I mean, I'll be in that in '78, '79 and the Civil Regis team when it was Liverpool, so you can have that one still. It stopped Albion winning the league. I mean, I think finish in second, it doesn't mean failure. Newcastle were unfortunate, just as Albion were unfortunate in '78, when I think it was the best Liverpool team to win the league that season. I think of all the leagues that they won, that was the best team. In Newcastle's case, they just came across this juggernaut of Manchester United that weren't going to give up the title to anybody, and there's no shame in that, because that was a magnificent title in the same way that over the last five or six years Liverpool have won one title. Well, Manchester City were magnificent over that period, it doesn't reduce anything that you have encountered at Liverpool over that period, or anything that Liverpool did. They were still a fantastic size, we were just at somebody, we were just slightly better that time. But yeah, that ties into what I was saying earlier, on about time and being everything, you look at that Manchester United in '95, '96, and they'd had that loss of the title the year earlier in '94, '95. Great believer in domino effects and football. I think if it's Blackburn that blowed the title in '94, '95, I think Newcastle probably win it in '95, '96, in the same way that Graham Taylor's Aston Villa in '88, '90. Probably win the first division if Liverpool don't lose that one in the last few seconds in '89, because it's that fatigue nature as well. So it really is time in being everything. If that Newcastle in '95, '96 had made that particular run a year earlier, that's the early title in '95. If you transplant that '95, '96 Newcastle side into the '94, '95 season, they win that big, you know, without shadow of doubt. There are other years when they win that big, it's just that Newcastle came up against the team. Light Westbrook in '78, '79, they've been there, done it, and they've missed out the previous season and were back to rectify that, and it was just that know-how in the end. But it doesn't detract as well. Absolutely. I think the point is that people remember that team, probably more than the Manchester United team that won the league that season far and more so. I mean, in the end, isn't that more important? You know, we are talking 30 years down the road. I mean, great. If you're doing the title on the day and you've lifted the traffic, and believe me, we've won less than you have. So I know. But it's one day, and you get the part, and that's great. And maybe you go on to do more as a result, but maybe you don't. But the fact that we're all still talking about those games and those goals and those performances and everything, I think the fact that you came second just adds to it. It's got that big island thing to it. And I will also say about Kevin Keegan, I think he's about he's the most underrated personality in English football. The thing, he's still very rarely gets talked about unless you're digging up something like this. But as a player, and then as a manager, I don't think anybody by sheer force of personality has achieved more than Kevin Keegan in his time. I mean, okay, he didn't win things. We don't cast on. But again, he changed the landscape. He changed the way people thought about football. In that early period of the Premier League, when we were getting used to watching television football and television all the time, he made it entertaining more than anybody. And I think the legacy of Kevin Keegan is monumental in English football and obviously, particularly at Newcastle and Liverpool. Sorry. It is. I'm just going with Keegan there. He was never the most natural. No, he wasn't the most naturally gifted footballer. He worked everything that he did. He was tireless in his effort behind everything. If he wasn't perfect at something, he would work and work and work on the training ground. And you can say very similar to his managerial, tactically, maybe that little bit short of being able to keep up with the vangers and the thurgersons and all of that of that era. Yeah. He was that inspiration in a way that nobody else could match. He was properly inspired into his players, to the support of his football club, even to those watching on the outside looking Yeah, you mentioned a word earlier that infectious, and I think that's what Keegan is, his personality is infectious. And you can't help but be drawn along and pulled along by him. What did they say? He has spoken not so long about it, long about it. Keegan kind of like his relationship with Liverpool, you know, as kind of like being a bit of a detached one almost since he left as a player, never been involved with the club ever since, really. Yet that loving respect for those supporters that watched him in that era, you know, is still massive. And it was great a couple of seasons ago, he came, he was the match day kind of like guest and doing the half-time stuff and all that type of thing, which is quite rare, you know, not seen in too many times coming back and doing that. Yet he absolutely loved it. And that was the thing, he was outside the stadium, making his way into the ground and supporters of a certain age were going up to and getting the selfies and all that type of stuff. And a lot of football players, you know, in the past don't like that type of thing. Yet there was Keegan stopping for absolutely everyone with the broadest smile. And you know, just, you know, arm around the shoulder, not just posing for photos, but arm around the shoulders and all that type of stuff. And he couldn't do enough. And, you know, I watched from afar because I'm not one of those people to approach my hero. It was I let them just be, you know, you know, and but there he was absolutely loving his day. And that for me spoke, you know, wonders about him as well. Absolutely. And going back to what Dave was saying about who gets remembered most, I'll take your own Christ word on this one that maybe we won't after all, since people remember us more. And we'll cling on to that. Obviously, so Rob, so Bobby Robson came along a few years later, having been close actually to joining post Keegan, brought an awful lot of stability and statesmanship, I think, to the club after a couple of years of post Keegan decline and other rising fortunes. And as we Keegan, he brought a real feel good factor again, a degree of style to if not quite a swashbuckling. But another exciting time, if ultimately, another one doomed to no tangible glory, but he is his hero gets focused in the magazine as well. And now I did also write another piece in this one, as I mentioned earlier, which is on the local Darby's against, you know, who from down the road, giving the whole rivalry a bit of historical context, stemming as it does from from fighting on opposing sides in the Civil War, and associated disputes around coal mining rights, and into more modern gripes, of course, but it's it's more than what I guess it may seem from the House of Hiders, just some parochial local squabble of minimal importance between two clubs that never win anything. My piece delves into a few of my Darby memories anyway, through some key matches over the last few decades. Oddly, the 1990 playoff semi final only gets passing mentioned. Well, the goals of Shola Amiobi get a bit more focus, which is only right, I think, runs of defeats don't get too much of a mention either. To bring us up to the modern day, though, the most recent iteration of the Darby was in the third round of the FA Cup last season. It was a bit of an odd one. Really, it was the first game between the two in seven or eight years, since Sunderland have been wallowing in the depths of the lower leagues for a little while. And being a cup game, too, it was a far bigger away contingent of Jordi's venturing south, or being allowed to venture south, which made it a very unusual and incredible occasion, I think. For Newcastle, I guess, given the gulf between the sides at that point and Sunderland, I do very well in the championship this season, but a bit slightly further back. At that point, I don't want to just come up from the third tier. It had banana skin written all over it from a Newcastle perspective, but thankfully quality told, and I got to breathe a huge sigh of relief more than anything else. But that's what Darby games often are. I think victories relief defeaters are disaster, and we've experienced plenty of both. My article on it naturally focuses, of course, on some more positive occasions for Newcastle. It's very blinker, but I was never going to write anything remotely even handed when discussing our rivalry with that lot. So that is there to be enjoyed as well. Any historical wars coming into your local rivalries in the West Midlands, Dave? They insist that it's the black country, Darby, and of course, everybody knows that War Rampton isn't in the black country. Well, let us try to cling on to your co-tales there, I think, Dave, just trying to get. Anyway, into modern times, Newcastle United is very much changed. In recent years, of course, the more abundant pointlessness of merely existing is a free advertising board for Mike Ashley and his particular brand of sporting goods. The fast of joke. I've resisted using that cup to that big huge novelty mug tonight. Good. I'm glad to hear it. Solidarity there, Steve. Thank you. The fast of Joe Keneer, Keegan's ill-fated return and constructive dismissal from Mike Ashley, the years of Pardew and head-butting people on the touchline. Steve McLaren, Steve Bruce, Pardew did have a brief period of joy. Hughson also brought a bit of class to proceedings briefly, but behind the scenes, things were paired to the bone. It was pretty horrific. Really Ashley gambled on spending the minimum to avoid relegation and nothing more. He lost that bit twice, but didn't change anything in his approach. All he was interested in was the free advertising, of course, and those mugs. This explains part of the joy, I guess, once the takeover went through, mixed with the slightly naive view as it turns out. Certainly, the Newcastle had won the lottery and were destined for big spending glory. Then, of course, the Saudi considerations as well, and all that comes with that, which is something I talked about in a few previous pods as well. In football, in terms of, well, Newcastle have progressed in the PIF, Eddie Howie, or a financial rules, as Dave mentioned earlier. There's a bit of a limit to how far it can go at the moment. There's talk of stadium renovation or new build, and there's plans for growing revenue and all those lovely things that we love to talk about, the reality of modern football. On the field, though, at least there are exciting players again, and that's a delight to behold. There's a club that actually wants to try and achieve whether they do or not as a whole, different matter, but they actually are actively trying to. That is great, whereas under Ashley, the stated intent was to not try and compete, merely to exist. Stephen, before we get towards a close here, what do you make of the current Newcastle and prospects for the future? I think moving away from Mike Ashley has to be seen as a positive. I think, yeah, we all wish it was in a different way. It could be different, but modern football. It is what it is. Outsourcing ownership of football clubs. We're talking stones and glasshouse era of things. Slander is very much thrown around about ownership of football clubs, yet increasingly, the most famous football in institutions have fallen into foreign ownership. There is that element of it as well. Yes, there is that uncomfortable nature to zone much of it, but at the same time, you just can't begrudge club like Newcastle, feeling like they've won the lottery and to be able to do things, basically, and to find utopia. We'll certainly, those of us, are a generation ex-nature. We've drawn our line in the south of a football, of what football was and what football was. I don't know. The contemporary game, it turned so many of us off. I don't think Newcastle doing well feels right. I think it's fair to say that would be just wish it would have been doing this under the halls and that rumbling on forever rather than the way ownership has diversified at Newcastle over here. That's to say, it's not just a Newcastle thing at all. Within that, how would any of us react if that came to our clubs? Unless you've been in that position, I don't think you can properly say how it would be. No, I think that's fair. It's ongoing saga, of course, and we'll see where it goes, but yes, the modern football is a different beast, shall we say. Dave, it's the same for you and what are your thoughts of current Newcastle United and where things may be headed? As far as the support is a concern, good luck to them because it's been a long, long wait for a trophy and I hope it ends failing. I hope it ends at Wembley in May, it'd be great. A problem with Newcastle lifting the FA Cup and putting the shares on the hands of the North and all that again. My concern in football in terms, please, guard down move from St. James's Park. I can understand why I have it and I've got to move from Goodison because there's nothing you can do. We've got to some park anymore in the modern area. That St. James's Park, at the top of the city, overlooking everything and the environs around it. For all that, it's been expanded so much over the years and it's not the ground that it was in the 70s and blah, blah, blah. It's one of the great football grounds into the store and you can't tag that away, you can't move that. It has to stay there. I don't know what sculptor is for redeveloping into what the ownership would want it to be. I don't know. There seems to be a reasonable amount in the room there, compared with others, or whether you do something like what Tottenham did and build a new ground on essentially the same size. Here's an idea, if you're able to share the stadium a lot for a couple years. You cannot move from St. James's Park. You're joker, Dave, but this is one of the real points of discussion around this. It's what would happen if it was a rebuild? Where would we play? It's not like when Tottenham were doing it, they could just shift across town to Wembley. There aren't alternatives in the area beyond the unpalatable. Frankly, I'd rather we played up in Edinburgh than there, but hey, who knows? In terms of the Saio, and you're right in terms of the history, it's a real emotive topic right now, because plans are afoot, things are being looked at, and something, whatever that will be, is going to be announced in the New Year at some point. The site itself, as much as there's green space behind it, it is actually restricted by listed buildings, which is why it's so lopsided currently, and a road on the other side. So expanding is awkward. It is difficult. However, you could see the possibility of a new stadium that's almost on exactly the same site, which is probably as good as that can get. But yeah, the thought of moving further from the city centre is very unpalatable to a lot of people. The fact that you can walk to it from anywhere in the central areas of the city, and people do, if you had to travel elsewhere in the city, as is the case with various clubs, that would feel like we'd lost quite a lot. And equally, as you talked about there, the fact that you can see the stadium on top of the hill from all around, it dominates the skyline, dominates the city, and that's a nice thing. But yes, we shall see on that it is a very emotive topic, but as in modern times, it's more about the finances and the bottom line than soul and history, but we shall see where that goes. Anyway, we'll bring things towards a conclusion with a few quickfire questions for you both. Time on a tradition. So, Steven, best new cast of player in your memory. Oh, I'm going to say for pure enjoyment, make me answering my own question there rather than one you're asking. Best best player, you've got to go with Alan Cheer, haven't you? But I think most enjoyable player team elsewhere. And there's just so much, again, going back to it, so much fun to watch. So enjoy most enjoyable team elsewhere, you're the best, can't be Alan Cheer, really? Okay, Dave? Well, if I can answer your answers in the same way, you can't get away from Alan Cheer, can you? I mean, 200 God knows how many goals and all of that. I would say that David Cheer and other players best football at Newcastle. And I'm always a sucker for wingers, so I always love watching him. And I have to agree on the best Newcastle player in my memory. It has to be Alan Cheer. You can't really discuss beyond that. And yes, from the enjoyment perspective, oh, too difficult, too difficult. I'll go back to the Lesford, and I think I mentioned earlier. Anyway, Dave, next one to you, first. Favorite current Newcastle player? I was just writing about Alexandra Isaac for the MCH program, and the fellow who scores as many goals as he does. For Newcastle, the Newcastle center forward, you were, I think you can't get away from him. Oh, yeah, absolutely superb player. I love that his close control, there was an example of this against Leicester the other day. It didn't come to anything, but the way he sort of danced in between three or four defenders, just with the ball seemingly tied to his laces, was magnificent. And he's got a real life goal, of course, in traditional style. So yes, I wouldn't disagree too much with that, but Steven, what do you think? I think I'd have to agree with Dave's choice, though. It's that freedom of expression that absolute sucker for. And again, contemporary football, you know, feeling far between to get a play area as that freed. You know, it's a bit like the Liverpool concept of having absolutely loved watching Bobby Felino play, just how popular he was in a Liverpool shirt, despite all of the other players that were surrounded, you know, to be so popular. Players like that are popular for a reason, because they just the embody the way that the supporters want the football to be. You know, they play the way that they would want to play themselves. Brilliant. Shout out to Bruno Gimmerais and also Cold Hero status for Joel Linton. I think his transformation in recent times is nothing short of remarkable and he is a huge fun favourite, if a complete pain in the backside to everyone who supports the opposition. Okay, Steven, favourite new castle era. Oh, Toss of a coin. Toss of a coin. I'd have to go being a being generation X and an 80s kid. I'm going to have to go for Keegan's playing era, though, about 82, 83, 84 span, Beersley Waddle, you know, all of that, I think, I think, rising from such a low point as well, for me, yeah, 80, 80, 82 to 84. We do an awful lot of rising from extremely low points, it seems, don't we? But there we go. That's our history. Dave, how about you, favourite era? We've discussed all this on the decasing. I think that, you know, when you sort of 10, 11, 12, it's hard-wired into you that that's what you think of, all the time, and it is, that sort of 70s day on, writing about the thing, you know, it's Jimmy Smith and Stuart Barakloff and, you know, even McDonalds, and Kate and St. James's Park are much of the day and all that. It all sort of came together in one thing, you know, I think, so that sort of 73, 74, 75, 76 period, I'd say. Oh, excellent. Okay, well, it probably comes as no great surprise that the mid-90s is mine. Now, as, you know, I'm saying age is Steve, and so obviously, formative years in the 80s, and that was a brilliant introduction, but the roller coaster ride at that time was just unsurpassed in my supporting experience, so I will have to go for that one. Okay, final one, Dave, you can go first here, fondest memory of a Newcastle side, moment, player, incident, in a positive way, though, please. It is 74, I mean, everything about that game at the album, although the album in Lostre, we're never in the game, it's just burned into, I mean, on a personal level, we went in, we went in the smelly-canned, and it was rammed. You could not say a thing, and I was, what was I, knowing at the time, and I was too big to get on my dad's shoulders, which I've done about three or four years early when Manchester United applied at the album, and it was so bad, we were thinking about going home after about 10 minutes, because you just couldn't say anything, and we were walking around the back of the smelly to where the Ryan Buston did, and the Ryan Buston did about 10 years out, so Ryan Buston was all really in heaven, this was the biggest thing on earth, and we did sort of stewing, and he went from working to the other, as a couple of say, to the back coming in, so we sat at the back of the Ryan Buston, this was good enough, I didn't care about the football, I was sitting in the Ryan Buston, and to be fair, Nick I saw were unbelievable, that is a quagmire of a pitch, you've seen it on YouTube, I'm sure, and they were fantastic, Malcolm worked on what, you know, I mean, he was like, say, Miss Francis Lee got sides like trees, and he was just mowing his way through them, and getting on the end of everything, John Tudor was winning everything in the air, Albion couldn't handle it, then he was as good a team as I'd seen at that age, in the flesh, so that fifth round if I got 1974 on March. Magnificent, what could possibly go wrong in that cup run from there, anyway, Stephen, your fondest memory of Newcastle United? Having given all the kind of like, you know, child of the 80s generation acts type of stuff, I've got to go the opposite way, and say that 96, 97 demolition of Manchester United, not one before Keegan resigned, actually, you know, and then Philip Palber, you know, Chip over, and all of that, it was just, you know, it was a glorious kind of way to event frustration really, over what had happened at the end of 1995, 96, and it was peak Keegan in so many respects in terms of what he was about, and what his teams were capable of, and it was a Sunday afternoon where you just had to properly take your hat off to them and say that was unreal, to dismantle that Manchester United side in that manner, you know, and another Manchester side of the match and go on and win the league at that season, but just for that afternoon, it just felt like, wow, that is a real, you know, statement of intent and granted it didn't go, you know, where we thought it could have done, events were to escalate very, very swiftly, you know, that, I don't know, that, that repost was, was just magical to watch. Well, oddly enough, I've, I've jotted down here for my answer to this, Philip Palber has chip gold in the five mils, but you should, perfect answer then, what can I say? Oh, you have that one, and I'll go for Keegan on the helicopter at the end of the testimony. Well, yes, that was memorable too, and I was in the first school at the time, and I didn't have tickets for that occasion, they were hard to come by, but the one guy in my class who did have tickets was tasked with buying a match program for everybody else, and the next day came in with actually a hat full of them, with Al Vida's own kev on the cover, which was super Dave, that would have been a program you'd have been proud to have been part of. But yeah, since we've mentioned Philip Palber a couple of times, I will pick another one as well, which I guess is a more personal one, but from the early, the early days of Keegan's managerial return, going up on the packed Gallaget Terrace, as it still was at the time, very crumbly, but the sheer joy, and I talk about this in the Keegan entertaining piece, the early part of that era where you had to be in the ground a long time before kickoff, to secure your place and your position, and there was all sorts of entertainment and sing along was going on, and it was a great fun time where suddenly all sorts of positivity was there, and everything seemed possible, and little did we know the journey we were about to go on and how it ended, but it was a fun fun time. Anyway, we shall end it there. The magazine, yes, I should mention that again, the magazine is out on the 2nd of January, so yes, get your orders in, it will be a beautiful ode to all things black and white, and I'm sure there may be a little bit of splash of colour in there somewhere, but they could have saved on printing costs and just done it all black and white. We'll see how it turns out. But thank you very much, both of you for your contributions. Thank you, Dave. It's been an absolute pleasure, and we played nicely. You have, indeed, well done. No mention of a certain player and a crazy goal in the 70s, we don't need to go there, and thank you very much, Stephen. I have not ended this part slumped over and advertising hoarding in despair. I'm glad that is the case. It's been countless as a win. That's all we can do, is cling to little victories. Well, thank you very much, and do join us again next time on The Log Podcast with these football times. Thank you, and goodbye. 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