CULTURE CORNER
Mishari AlNajjar | Architect and Artist
(upbeat music) - Hello, welcome to Promenade Cultural Center. This is Culture Corner. We bring you the authentic stories of creative individuals. Very delighted to have here with us today, Ms. Shahri Al-Najar, an architect and an artist and a dear friend of Promenade Cultural Center. Ms. Shahri, so great to have you here today. - Thank you for having me. - Yes, thank you for coming and dedicating some time to our podcast. We were just discussing prior to taping how we've already had an architect on board. - Yes. - But your path is a bit different. And I was hoping we could start by discussing how does one become an architect, especially when this kind of occupation is not something you will stumble upon in childhood or learn at school. - Yeah. Well, ironically, I did stumble upon it in childhood. - Well, that's a great story, then. - Yeah, it's, I don't know how it just came about. Well, I'm the third boy from my family and then I have, my sister was younger. So I was technically the youngest boy. So my older brother had a Sega CD gaming console and we were not allowed to touch it. So we would just sit and watch him play. - So he had this, and this was back in the 90s, like a while ago, but he had this game where you play as a firefighter and you go and like rescue people on the fire and whatever it may be. And because I can't play, I would just sit and read the manual. And in the manual, they had floor plans because you go into houses, you go into hospitals, things like that. And I was very young, but like something about the floor plans just like really attracted me to them. And somehow I understood them as an eight, nine year old, which is, I don't know, kind of far-fetched now, yeah. But since then, I learned that there is something, I didn't know what it was called, but like you can draw a map of a house. And from that, I used to draw a lot, sketch a lot. I invented an entire country. Of course, being very inventive, I call it the United States of Machari. But I did like draw a map. I've made like these different projects, hotels, whatever it may be. And I used to just go and sit with my aunts and explain to them, oh, this is the hotel. And this is, I don't know what. And yeah, and then I had a plan. I wanted to apply to architecture. It just came organically. - So the love per se viewed. - Yeah, well, yeah, until a certain point where it just became the reality. - Oh yeah. Now let's say it's a love/hate relationship, but yeah, stuck. Yeah. - And that path, when you decide you want to apply for architecture, how does that go within schools here? You didn't study in Kuwait. - No. - But you're practicing in Kuwait. - Yes. Back, well, when I got into university was 2005 for, there was an architecture school and the plan was to apply here. And at the same time, I didn't really do a lot of research, which is maybe bad to say, especially for like fresh graduates, that I didn't really look into it. The whole plan was, again, as I mentioned, I had to hold the brothers. They already applied to university, they went here. So I assumed that would be the same thing to me. And then again, by chance my mom came and she was like, by the way, there's a fair exhibit happening about universities. So why don't we just go and check it out? And I already applied to university in Kuwait and did the entrance exams and all of that. So we just went and we just walk around and then we see the American University of Sharjah, which is where I ended up going. And my mom was like, oh, I think you're second cousin. I don't know twice related, removed. I don't know what it is. Like, went to this university. Why don't we just go and see? So I went and the AOS or American University of Sharjah, salesperson was very good. They convinced me on the spot. And we live in Mischief, so it's very close. So my mom went, got all of my papers, information and I did the application there on the spot and just applied, yeah. Got it, thank you. - How was that experience? You left home? - Yes. I was very young, I was 17. I was very shocking and I didn't realize how tough architecture school would be. Like, I thought it would be like, oh, you know, I just dropped out. - Like the United States of Russia. - Yeah, like, I got this, you know, like, and I went to public school in Kuwait. So my English wasn't very good, even though I thought I was amazing in English, but my English was like taught from sitcoms and, you know, video games or whatever, maybe. I didn't know how to write an essay, you know? And I went into an American University not knowing how to write an essay. But yeah, it was tough from the beginning, but I don't know, it's different. Like, you're in this different universe, completely detached from everything. You're away from home. - It has its perks. - Yeah, yeah. Like, I grew up fast and I think it really helped, even though, yeah, at the end of the day, I was in the UAE, wasn't so much of a culture shock. But still being away from home, seeing people different nationalities was very much, especially AUS, they had a good mix of people. Like, so it was a bit of a culture shock, but I think it's happened for the best because I cannot imagine I would end up doing what I'm doing now at that state here. - Yeah, that experience brought you something. By that time, how much did you know about architecture in Kuwait? How much did you learn about it or knew about it? Did you research anything? Because I'm referring to this because we have a pleasure of working with you and you do a lot of research prior to talking to the participants or workshops you hold here at the center or other workshops that I've seen, that you organized. And one can tell that you know a lot, obviously, over the years and if knowledge has grown. But back at that time when you were a student, were you interested in Kuwait's architecture? - Not really, it's not really because it wasn't taught. It's not something you learn in school. Like, okay, architecture has Kuwait towers. You know, at the wall, the Kuwait sword. And that's pretty much it's like, there isn't any sort of education happening about building, like in the Middle East even, like even in the university, we were studying about American architects and buildings in Europe and Gothic architecture and Renaissance paintings and all of that. - Very detached. - Yeah, completely detached. And I graduated thinking that was architecture. So when I came back to Kuwait, I had to re-educate myself. And I just happened, I looked out during, coming back, there was a lot of discourse happening about modern architecture in Kuwait. So a lot of books came out, a lot of people were giving lectures. So I just went along, educated myself and I spent like five or so years just online, buying whatever books I can find and everything was written in the 60s, 70s, you know? So just acquiring as much knowledge as I could because it wasn't being given out or handed out. - Would you be able to share with us what was the most interesting period for you? Is there something called Golden Times of Architecture in Kuwait? There was a point in time, maybe a prolonged period actually where a lot of people from around the world were situated in Kuwait, building Kuwait. - Yeah, I think it's very subjective. Each person has an era or a decade and they tend to be nostalgic to that. I try not to be, but I would say. - Is it good for architects to not be nostalgic? - Yeah, which is hard, especially here. But I think the 70s, there was this, because already the architecture was kind of semi-established, we had offices that were established in Kuwait in the 60s. So they learned from these foreign architects coming and working. So I think the 70s where you start to notice a response to the climate or response to materiality that's happening here, factories were built, so materials are being produced locally. So yeah, definitely 70s to 80s. I think that's, to me, not golden, but let's say my preferred era. - Time, yeah. And was that time really better, like we sometimes do get nostalgic, like you said? - You would think that, but I don't know, I don't want to be pessimistic, but every research or every paper I read, and there's quite a few, yes, it was better. And let's say because to the sense that there was this development, this forward trajectory of wanting to develop better people's lives, and all of that, but at the same time, things were already starting off, let's say, 80% good, and there's still 20 to 30% bad bureaucracy happening. And that's something that was there from, I was shocked to learn that it was there from the 50s, you know, in the 60s, and the way the city was rebuilt, completely destroyed and rebuilt, it wasn't correct, let's say. So we're still trying to rectify whatever was done, because things were wiped out, completely disregarded, and then someone made a plan and said, this is what's going to work without really knowing how things work. So Kuwait City, as a city, is still being, you're still grappling with these mistakes that were made, like what, half a century ago? - I realize when I go to Kuwait City, that even though there are a lot of houses or buildings that look like residential ones, it also feels like no one really lives there, as if when the working hours are done, that's it, it's an empty spot. Is this deliberate, or is this some sort of a link between how we see urbanization and architecture? - Yeah, I think it was deliberate, because it was planned as a financial district, right? So when they did the land acquisition in the 50s and they moved everyone out of the city, they sold this idea of modernization, you will live in a suburb, you will have a house, you'll have a car, and then you drive to the city to work, do your business and go back. So it was planned as a financial district, not as a city. And then the second master plan for Kuwait, I think that happened in the 70s, they wanted to fix that. So they introduced residential areas. That's when you got so upper, for example. So they were trying to bring people back to the city, because as you mentioned, they mentioned, that's a ghost town after five. And I think now it is a bit better. Like there are a lot of businesses starting restaurants, things like that. So the city is quite busy at night, which is shocking. - Yeah, it's not, yes. It feels like even in the last 10 years as well. - Yeah, it happened very recently. - Yes, my period that I can follow. We've mentioned in the beginning that you're an artist as well. - Yes. - Do these paths somehow, are there going from the beginning, you as an architect, you as an artist, or is this something you've found along the way? - I think it's a bit of both. - They're a compliment. - Yeah, kind of. Yes, I don't know. So like to re-establish what happened after university, I came back, took a year off where I worked on my portfolio, architecturally speaking, and I was very deliberate in reaching out to offices. So I lucked out. I'm working on Babinham Design Studio. I got, I started 2012, so it's almost 12 years now. And I was very lucky. I think that I happened to be with good people. Our ideologies clicked with everyone at the office, so I just stuck with it. And then over time, as I'm learning more, is this with the city working, we worked on a couple of projects in the city, like Nogra, for example. So I got to understand more and more, like relearning my history through work and through just observing and working in quite city. I used to just go walk around, take pictures, things like that. And then I would say, like I started being an architect, everything we do is on the screen. A lot of people have this image of an architect with like a paper and drawing and sketching. I don't know how to draw, I don't know how to sketch. I have the most horrible sketches that anyone could ever look at. So starting off was an easy just to go to illustration. So I started illustrating buildings, any building that I found interesting, I would do different illustrations from it, but it was still very much in the architectural realm. And then in 2019, I was, again, that's when I met you and I was part of the SETI and Seto House design and art program, yeah. So that's when textile was reintroduced to me. It's something that I grew up with, my grandmother, my late grandmother, my mom, my aunts, they are all very passionate about textile. So I was kind of reintroduced to it. And that's, I think, something clicked there. And that's where I found my little niche to kind of do something in it. So since then I kind of stuck with it, stuck with textile, yeah. - Are you, you feel that you are reaching new layers, new levels, actually, of working with textile? Or you're still researching that first step in working with it? - Yeah, I think there's so much in it. Like there is, I'm completely, like sometimes I do say, okay, I'm a textile artist, but not really, like, there's weaving, there's, you know, pattern making, block printing, manipulation, quilting, there's so much in it that I just don't know. So I'm very much on the surface, but I try to relate it back to what I do, but I did want to ask you about Kuwait's famous past with a heritage of textile heritage connections to the countries, there was exchange of goods with Sado weaving, which I'm sure you've tackled. - Yes. - In your work and being a resident artist. Is this something that you're researching as well? Is there something you can use from that past in your own work? - Yeah, no, there's so much. And again, Sado House is a good resource. Like their library is amazing. I used to go there and spend like a few hours whenever I could. Again, being a Kuwait city close to work, I can just, you know, leave and go after work. There is so much in it, but at the same time, I try not to, what do you say, like appropriate, whatever was done. At the end of the day, it's a craft made by women. So being a man, I'm trying to be careful about how do you approach that. And you don't wanna appropriate whatever was done, even though at the end of the day, we're both Kuwaitis. You know, but there's so much history and so much soul put into Sado weaving that I try not to, you know, just go. - It is incredibly unique. - Yeah, very personal. Like every weaver has her own story. She's creating her own, she's making her own thread. She's doing the whole thing from A to Z, you know? So, but what resonated with me is the fact that they're documenting their surroundings. So it's a way that they use textile to document their everyday life, what they see. I still remember the image of the plane that one of the weavers did. So she's like, I saw an airplane flying. I documented that, you know, so. - I remember that. - So that aspect is something that I'm comfortable with saying is, okay, I'm using textile to document my surroundings. - Yes. - Yeah. - And back to you becoming an artist. How did that go? Can you be an artist with just yourself working on your own things, creating art? Do you have to search for channels to express it, to showcase your work? How does that look for you, that creative journey? - I know you've been in a few residences. - Yeah. - Was that something that has helped along the way? - Yeah, definitely. - Is recognition important? - Yes or no? Of course, you can't just be someone that's locked up in a space and just constantly making art. Of course, that's amazing. - That's a question, whether that's an art or something. - Yeah, it's still good. - Is it art if we don't see it? - If you don't see it, yeah. But at the same time, you need these outputs, you know, like with cultural institutions. So I've done a few residencies starting with Sedu. Well, actually, before that I did one in a Macan, which is no longer there, but I've done with them, but that was illustrations. And then Sedu and then Abdullah Sam Cultural Center. And after that, I got the Miss Grant in Saudi. So that was like, to me, the last, okay, I can say I am an artist, you know? That was kind of like a badge of honor to justify that. But because there are a lot of architects that turn to art, I don't know if it's frustration with the practice. I'm pretty sure that it is because what you study is not what you practice. To a certain extent, it depends. I locked out again. But yeah, there is a need to have the work scene, of course, because at the end of the day, I do have a day job. I'm not fully dedicated to art-making. That would be ideal. But at the end of the day, we need to live, you know? So yeah, but having these residencies or grants or whatever maybe gives you an incentive to create and produce. So I think that helped out a lot, especially at the beginning, to kind of work within deadlines, even though I'm still being learning and relearning how to work with textiles. I'm teaching myself as I go along. And of course, going back to my mom and aunts and kind of asking them how things were done, how do you work with this, how do you learning about textiles? They're so much. Yeah, so it helped. - I think it would be lovely if you tell us about the actual projects that you've done, or the art you have created. We speak in general terms, but it would be great to actually hear about them. What were you documenting and what were you creating, at least in these residencies that you've mentioned, or anything that you'd like to share? - Yeah, definitely. Like, again, being an architect and a fan of the buildings in the '70s and '80s, those were the ones that kind of caught my attention. So, for example, in the Abdullah-Salm Cultural Center, I wanted to document three soups and quates. So Guattaniya, Safat, and Menar. And they're all designed by the same architect. TAC, which is an American company, and then locally working with PACE as a local consultant. So they worked on the three projects. So I found them interesting. Each one has a different story, has different history, interesting history. So I kind of worked on documenting these three, and I did my research on those. And then for the MISC grant, I wanted to kind of expand a bit more. So I looked at Blocat, which is Central Business District number nine in Quiz City, where is all of the textile markets, which is a natural progression, let's say, Safat is in it. So I looked at that. And then I think during that grant is where it kind of clicked to me that, like being an architect and having my education architecture was all about the buildings, and how to represent the buildings. But with art, it's not really that, 'cause why not make a book and educate people about the architecture, you know, why doing art? So that's when my appreciation for my grandmother came. And like, remembering how she used to work with her sewing machine, with the textiles, with making these little mittens, we call them Baze, that image was always in my head of her working, and sitting and working with these fabrics and textiles. So I wanted to bring that back. So that's how I worked with the Blocat and kind of reinterpreting the district through these different mittens and archiving the district as a mass plan and acquiring fabrics from these different buildings. And yeah, and now this is what I'm continuing with, this kind of understanding what makes Mshari, I hate saying that, but what makes me want to document and preserve these buildings. And at the same time, my family, like kind of paying respect to the actual teachers, which are my mom, my aunt and my grandma. They're the ones that taught us these things, yeah. - You've mentioned you, you found your niche. Your work is very unique. And you do it with a lot of grace. There's a lot of, one can see that there's a lot of patience put into it. It's a slow patient art. And I'm enjoying it very much. It feels like the fast paced artwork or creation is not doing it for us anymore. Somehow creating something new out of something that for you carries a lot of heritage and a lot of memories, a lot of childhood moments, works. And it works for us as an audience as well. Are you comfortable in that niche? - Yes and no. Sometimes I think like I'm just repeating myself, which is like a bad state of mind to be in, but it's... - Very common though. - Yeah, yeah, it is. And I feel like if you're just, if you don't worry or question yourself as you're working, then there's no point in producing. But yeah, I do enjoy it. As you mentioned, there is a much slower, deliberate, approach textile like you have to be relatively patient with it. And it's something by hand, I always want to learn. I got a sewing machine and I taught myself how to use it. I wanted to do it. A lot of people be like, okay, why don't you just give it to a tailor and have them do it? And you just give them the idea. But then I'm like, that's just architecture, isn't it? You draw the plan and you hire a contractor. And they build it for you. So I wanted this handmade, deliberate, like it's not perfect. I try because again, with architecture and design, you have to be very detail oriented, you know? And especially with us, like in Bob Nimnim, it's all about the details which I love. But at the same time, when I'm working with textile, I want to kind of let loose. And I'm fine with things not being perfect. I don't even hem fabric, which is such a big no-no when it comes to textile because eventually the threads is just gonna, but I intentionally do that because I want to oppose this idea of permanent structures. So I want something temporal, something that could potentially with time, just not be there anymore, yeah. - I have a few threads from some of your works. - Yeah. - If you remember, I think you deliberately left them loose in your study residence. And my children actually took them with notes. So we keep them when you're famous. We'll exhibit them. - No, no, we are not getting rid of them. I am, in a way, a collector of these small items from different exhibitions. So this is like a little treasure for me. But you've inspired me in something. I've been going around the world searching for these textile museums that wouldn't normally interest me. I think Sadu did that for me as well because I come from a heritage with weaving but I was never really interested before learning about Sadu and the uniqueness of Bedouin weaving. And recently, not recently, but a few years ago I was in France inoulouse and they were an important spot with textile caravans and a textile industry and very large prints, so to speak, the wooden ones created which are really huge in the museum. And their entrance ticket is a piece of cloth. - Yeah, I remember, yeah, I mentioned it. - So these things, I don't think I would have done that without your being inspired by the work you do. - Yeah, you have mentioned that you document for certain reasons and I also wanna go back a little bit to your part of your personality that's an architect. There's a lot of buildings being demolished in everywhere in the world. - Yeah. - But somehow modernity feels like we have, we deal with this, with buildings being demolished sometimes for no apparent reason. Sometimes even though the architects are opposing it or the public is opposing it. So, do we heal our relationship with buildings by documenting them, not knowing what happens next? Or are you fine with them? You did mention, actually, fine with them kind of disappearing like you leave your threads unfinished to your textiles unfinished. - Yeah, yeah, because I think the thing that issue with Kuwait, because it's a trained country. And as I mentioned, it was completely eradicated and rebuilt. So, there is this notion that anything that's not mud is not worth preserving. And I, in the very, like coming back in the very beginning there were a lot of buildings that were being demolished and I was very much opposing that. But I don't know now if it's just me getting used to it or like some buildings, I'd be like, okay, you know what? Yeah, this could go. Not every modernist building should be preserved. Like there has to be some sort of historical context to it, significance. Sadly, that's the case. And maintenance is a huge issue with Kuwait. Like you do build a building and then you just let it be 'cause it's generating income. So you just let it deteriorate over time. So eventually there is no point in preserving and it doesn't make any financial sense to preserve and renovate. It's so much easier to demolish, especially that there isn't much land in Kuwait City. Documenting is important. You have to document, educate people who are willing to be educated. You can't just assume everyone's gonna see eye to eye with your ideology, but preserving documentation is important to showcase that there is beauty in these buildings that you deem ugly, you know? So to me, that's important. And your studio is in an important building? Yes. How did that come to be? Why that building? I'm leaving it to you to say which one it is and why. Yeah, so I've recently, well, not recently, almost a year ago, moved to a studio Khmerai. And so good what done here in Kuwait City. And it just happens to be one of my favorite buildings in Kuwait. You lucked out again. I lucked out. I seem to be very lucky. Now we are realizing that we're establishing that. But it just happened to start off. I was so far studios, which was targeted by a city ago. She did this kind of incubator space where she took-- A lot of artists are there. A lot of artists are there. She took a floor in an office building in Kuwait, renovated into artists' studios. So I was on the waiting list for that. And every time a seal reaches out to me, which I'm very, very thankful, she reaches out. She's like, oh, there's a new space available. I see it, or like, it just doesn't work. So eventually, Hode Abdomovny, who's the founder for me, I texted me, and she's like, hi, I got your number from a seal. I'm looking for someone to rent with me there, because Tala, who's a textile artist, she works with natural dyes as moving out. So she wanted to find someone else to move in. And I was like, yes, please. Next day, I went, saw the space, beautiful space. And yeah, I just now happen to have my art studio and one of my favorite buildings in Kuwait. Yeah. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Does work look different once you're in your studio, outside your usual spaces? Yeah, because-- Do you feel like, in a way, tempted to work more? Yeah. Does it keep you disciplined? Of course. Of course. First thing, first, your payment, right? So you have to justify this expense. I'm very thankful that I can afford doing that. Not a lot of people can. I'm very aware of that. It's an added luxury. Not anyone can afford having a studio space. Especially in Kuwait, there aren't much spaces that offer that. So that alone, it's enough incentive to me. I'm sure I know I'll get up, go. It's being very close to work. It's also good. So I leave work. I can go there. It's like a five-minute drive. I can walk there if the weather permits, which is good. And yeah, just having this third space to kind of detach my mind. OK, I'm not the architect. Now, I'm not the sun or, you know-- Yes, your usual roles, yeah. So this is a new added space that I get to kind of detach. We have to juggle a lot of roles. Yes. Sometimes they kill the artist. They do. But yeah, it's just allowing yourself, giving yourself the time and the space. Like the moment I'm in that space, it's like, OK, I can switch off or change the hat, let's say, and hollas, now it's like to think of art and make something. Yeah. Do you get to document the building as well? I've seen some posts on social media. Yes, yes. I worked on a piece that documents the changes that the building happened, went through. Ironically, the day I move in, I'm moving in my stuff. I see construction happening in the building. And I asked her, I was like, what's happening? And she's like, yeah, they're renovating it, because there's a BOT system. So it's called Build Operate Transfer. So this was something that was established by the government and incentivized private investors to develop in the city. So they give them a plot of land. They tell them, build it, operate it for a certain number of years. And then eventually you have to transfer ownership back to the government. So when I moved in, that was the time where their transfer was supposed to happen. But I think, I don't know if you noticed, like five or 10 years ago, a lot of different souks in Kuwait City, like the one next to Embarkier, the big white one, super Kuwait, they were all renovated. Not nicely, but they were renovated. So that's when their time was up. So if you renovated and prove that you're taking care of the building, you can extend your lease. So that happened. And it was a haphazard renovation. But I was locked out because I'm right there. I can see it happening. So I documented that. And I have a piece that will be showcased next month in a group exhibition that tackles that BOT and renovation process that happened. So it just worked out. They might be like, oh, my god, I'll just move on. Think of look at different buildings, but I can't. I'm right there, you know? Yes, no, no, it makes sense. It would be lovely to see that. Now that you've mentioned that, I realize that you are very present in other people's exhibitions. And you're very supportive to other artists' work, which is magnificent, really. How much inspiration it brings you? Do you share knowledge? Do you learn from others? How is that seen artistic scene in Kuwait? How do you find it? I think it's good. A lot of people say there isn't anything happening, but-- No, no, that's not true. We know that, yeah. And I have-- We're here, actually, even with this podcast to rectify that notion. No, there is so much happening. And I have friends in Bahrain. So one of them is an artist friend. She's also a textile artist. And she tells me, like, every day, you're going to some sort of opening. Like, how much is happening in Kuwait? Because Bahrain is not as much, you know? Like, you get two or three, four openings a year. And you're, like, almost every week you're going. And I was, like, yeah, there is-- It's very reassuring to be honest when, yeah. You have to seek it out. That's the only thing. And I remember speaking of that, there is a lot of discourse between artists. Like, they have these gatherings and things like that. Gallery Balwa, for example, used to do these hangouts in their space, where they bring different artists or designers. And they just talk, you know? So I did mention that any exhibition is a good exhibition, because as far as the artist had the guts to put up the work and say, come look at it and judge me. To me, it's a win, no matter whatever is up on the wall. So that alone is inspiration. The fact that I see people putting the time and effort and exposing themselves, you know? Because that's-- It's very, very comfortable. Yeah. So to me, that alone is a good, like, you know, fire to be like, OK, maybe I should be next. My work should be up there. So it's a good incentive to just go out and see. And you meet lovely people. Yes. Yeah. I think we, as a cultural center, we always know we can count on you. You, Michele, will show up, which is amazing. Because we get feedback. Your colleagues get appreciation and support. And that's just immeasurable in how worthy it is. I wanted to ask you, in your opinion, the presence of Kuwait's artists in internationally, regionally and internationally. Not enough, obviously. Yeah. Is this something that needs to be supported from various sides? It's always a question of government. There needs to be a plan and a cultural policy behind it, of course. But because we see examples of regional work being presented here, we know of the examples of different artists coming and creating art here. Yeah. And even though I was, I would never be one of those people saying, oh, we have to do only with what we have here. Because exchange and diversity is crucial for art growth. But should Kuwait be present more? Yeah, definitely. And I think there needs to be this exchange, right? Where you invite artists at the same time. Do these platforms exist? Or are they based on personal contacts? I think so. Like, there isn't really this institution that's doing that. And it would be great to have a mobility artist. Yeah, I don't know. God, it's like good luck meeting eye to eye. But yeah, there isn't this-- or there are, but they're not doing what they should be doing. It's like, like as I mentioned, I said, with Safat Studios, that's a personal effort. And it shouldn't be a personal effort to create such spaces. There is, and there are quite a few artists that are showcasing regionally, internationally, Kuwaiti artists. And it has been the case for years. But there isn't this exposure or knowledge. Like, why aren't we learning about these artists at school? Like these pioneers that I learned about coming back and after. Why aren't they being showcased? And I don't know. I understand it needs to be a cumulative effort. Yeah, it's a lot of work. And part of a curriculum. There's part of you that's also an educator. It's a very natural part of being an artist. How did that come to be? I would like us to discuss the Inarrative platform. Yes. So that came about in 2017. So I just did my residency in Andamakan. And I did my first solo there. And then after, as I mentioned, I have a few friends in Bahrain, one of them being Sarah Abdullah, who we co-founded Inarrative together. I saw her post-sending regards, too, because we know her. In a mountain. She is a very active woman. Yes, unlike me. But she was posting about this initiative that she worked on with the cultural ministry in Bahrain. And they were giving a workshop with a Kuwaiti architect. So I saw it, and I'm like, oh, Sarah, why don't we do something? Why don't I just give a workshop with you? And we decided to do it. And we just started the workshop. We did it ourselves. And that was in 2017 in Bahrain. So we started Inarrative almost at a moment of frustration with architecture. That's exactly it, in frustration. Yeah, and it always starts with a phone call. We always have this thing that me and Sarah say for you for a call, since, again, she's not a Kuwait. So it started with a conversation, me and her. And we wanted to create this platform that broadens the outreach of architecture. We felt like architecture is very self-referential and self-evolved. Architects only care to speak to other architects, even though their work is the most out there and exposed, you have to deal with people occupying the spaces that you do. And we don't have that understanding. Or like, we kind of have this ownership. No, I must be the know it all and control everything that I do. So it came out of that. We wanted to create something much more approachable, humble, experiential. So we started a narrative as a platform where we encourage observation in the series that we live in. We encourage storytelling, hence the narrative aspect of it. And yeah, we just do different workshops, different research, artwork, whatever it may be. Just we welcome it as it comes to us. We don't go and actively seek out, not anymore. We used to in the beginning. But I feel like now, a few years later, I feel like, OK, we know what we do. And then, thankfully, people from another reach out to us. And we offer our service. It turned very naturally to us. I think we knew of your work. And I used to live in Haveli, where we are right now situated in this today. And I realized that there are a lot of buildings that are worthy of mentioning, and that they are somehow now scattered in this really a concrete jungle. Didn't know much about the heritage of Haveli and how it was a city in a city in a way. So creating this cultural map, it's a continuous process for us. Because we've covered certain buildings. We've done a few workshops. And maybe briefly discuss your ideas for our future workshops that we did say we will do. You don't necessarily have to mention the buildings themselves if you don't want to. But we are interested to hear on how much more is there in Haveli, for instance, or even in Kuwait in general. No, there is so much. Sadly, I hate to say this. But I think it was my grandmother that I used to say. She used to say, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] So, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] is something that you disregard or not think about. So there was this notion that Haveli is just this leftover, huge city and that has so much history. But it was just disregarded. It was like, it's a backdrop. Your destination is either Kuwait City, Salmiya, maybe in the '90s. But Haveli was this awkward space in between. And even though there's so much history, like you mentioned. So when we did the first workshop with you, Haveli Bound, we wanted to create a map of the city. But in a sense, with what's important to participants. So they kind of dictated what goes on that map. So it's an interesting way to look at a city, rather than being very technical about mapping out a city is rather much more of what you experience, what you remember. And from that, we realized a lot of us grew up going and coming to Haveli. And there was [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] for example, is, oh my god, like every aid we used to go and buy video games from there. So that was a huge, important destination. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] The Jerry Bookstore, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] so the [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] which is no longer there. But there was so much that it was a destination. And it is the cultural output of Kuwait. So you have studio at Nada'er, all of these studios and music stores. And that is as a theater. So there was this output that was happening. But sadly, now it's kind of forgotten. Or it's there, but no one really looks at it. So yeah, we do this. We revived them in a way, at least in memory. And then our workshops. I think what's great, but not easy to explain to audiences, is that these workshops are for everyone. You don't have to have any previous knowledge of architecture. You don't have to be skillful with your hands, because we do block printing. I think it's great to mention that the participants create-- they work on joint projects to create this large tapestries. We've exhibited the one from our first workshop. We might be compiling that work for a future exhibition, and not, but that people actually are joined together in how they perceive Haveli. Recently, my colleague Farah and I, we went to an event where we've shown some of the Haveli zines that you and Sara have created for the first workshop, where you can, in a way, reimagine Haveli using stickers. And it just created so much interest with youngsters. So, is it the way of how you approach participants? You never know what kind of group you're doing. You never know, yeah. Is this a way of introducing architecture and urbanism and heritage to audiences through this-- Yeah, it's just-- --reniting their knowledge and experiences? I think that's what's very tough and kind of communicating that, because you can never communicate that in a post. But even though the posts are beautiful-- I think this is where your catchy titles come here. We try, like, Kuros to Sara. She's the one, she's like the wizard with words, not me. From what I understand, great in both English and Arabic. Yeah, yeah. We try to keep them whimsical, let's say, kind of attention-grabbing. Sometimes it helps that the building does the talking for us. So, Atman Center, a workshop that we gave last year. Last December, yes. The building did all the work. You know, like, it's a fabulous building. Very kitschy, it did the work for us. Sometimes you have to be smarter about it. But yeah, it's very much experiential. Even when we start a workshop, we make it a point, saying that neither me or Sara are experts on whatever we're showing. We're learning with you as much as you are, learning from us. Like, it's this exchange that we work collectively. We revisit things collectively, be it memories, buildings, whatever it may be. So, and we use block printing as a way to kind of facilitate that. It's block printing is very easy, more or less. But interestingly, I don't think anyone has tried it before of all of our participants. Yeah, which is funny, like, I don't know, but I remember, like, we've given a workshop in Sharjah back in March, and then we started off saying, does anyone know any block printing? I know I said anything. And then when the workshop ended, two ladies came up and we're like, by the way, we've been doing it for years. And then she showed me her work. And I was like, oh my god, you should be teaching. Why am I showing you how to carve a block, you know? But yeah, a lot of people don't, because I feel at a certain age, you just lose this connection with making things with your hand, right? And as adults, we try to be very pragmatic about things. And very controlling, which is, I feel working with textile printing, block printing, paint, you get your hands dirty, it kind of like-- You're proud of your work, of the outcome of your work. Yeah, yeah, and it's something that you made, you know? And if we need anything in the world, it's more people working with hands and socks. Yeah, exactly. And it's the last doctors and engineers, which is, by the way, where my family is-- Yeah, I have in mind, and we still need them. I don't want to die, but-- No, you know what they say, we need them, but we don't live for that. We live for poetry and things we create with the hands and the arms, and so on. Yeah, and it has to be. Like, I think that's what makes it unique or special. And every workshop is completely different. Even though the approach is relatively the same, but I think the participants bring so much-- Everyone, yeah. --into it, and me and Sara, especially after the first day or the first hour of the workshop, we always be like, oh my god, this is completely different. We'd never imagined it to be like that. And we always have this preconceived notion of what the outcome would be. And I remember starting off, I used to get very frustrated of thinking, why aren't they getting it? Or why isn't it happening the way I envisioned it? But then, eventually, I learned that that's not the point. You should never go into a workshop as an instructor expecting at a certain outcome, because it will never be. And I think that what makes it interesting and beautiful. And it's something that's just a shared experience for a day or two. For example, in the first workshop, no, it was almost a month. Yes, we had three weeks of weekend. And you get to learn, know these people, even though it's quick. But I feel like there's always a nice takeaway from it. Yeah. Well, we're looking into continuing, for sure, and uncovering new buildings with you. Our time is passing very quickly. I wanted to ask you, we're not a tourist guide here or anything. But it's so great to hear from people who are involved with the topic and in this area. What buildings should we see? What we shouldn't miss? We mentioned a lot. Yeah. I recently had a cousin who is an art historian who came to Kuwait. And she said, I tried. I Googled. Everything I see seems to be online, seems to be related to malls. Right. Which, of course, we know it's not true. But so we need to work more obviously on presenting these lands, these sites, these buildings. What would you recommend? There are so many. Even for us, as locals. Yeah. Well, I would say Watania, but that would be such a cliche. So I won't. But I will take a sister to Watania. I would say Soogled Manach. It's not an interesting building, per se. Not as much as Watania also thought. But I think just looking into the history of the Soogled self and what happened in Soogled Manach, I'm not going to get into it because we will talk for yet another hour. But just learning that buildings can have so much impact in history. And it was the, let's say, the stage for an economic crisis. But it's just, I'm sure whoever designed it did not think that will happen in it. But I feel like every time going to that building, especially knowing the history, I feel like it's so charged as a space. And there's so much, I don't know, it's not haunted. But like, there is something to it that I feel is not, is not replicated. And you can't find that easily. Very interesting. Yeah. So I would recommend first looking up Manach crisis, learning about it and then go into the building. Yeah. And what's in works for you as an artist? Yeah, as I mentioned, there's a collective exhibit happening next month. And I'm also working towards the solo, hopefully. I know I've been saying that for years. But this time I'm taking up more seriously. I've met two curators, lovely curators. I'm working with them, just starting off. But it will be a bit more of what I talked about. So about the architecture, the buildings that I find interesting. And also about my family history and trying to document that. Yeah. Because I feel like it's about time I honor the women in my family, especially that my maternal side of the family, the bloodline stopped in that. So I feel like I have to kind of work on showcasing. So hopefully, no pressure, but something will come out. We're looking forward to it. Yeah. Micheli, thank you so much for the time. Thank you. You did it to us today. And we hope to see you soon back at Culture Corner as well as in Promenade Culture Center. Yeah, definitely. And thank you for having me. It was lovely. And we always say with whenever working with Promenade, we're in good hands. Very happy to hear that. We'll see you soon. Thank you. Thank you. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO]