2. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad-free, plus ad-free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra, Bagman, and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad-free and with bonus content, including Why Is This Happening, Velshi Band Book Club, and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning, you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows. I do think it's worth being very clear-eyed, very realistic about what's going on here. Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for MSNBC Daily at MSNBC.com. OK, I'm not going to lie. It has been a little bit of a day here in Washington. We're in the middle of a huge snowstorm, schools are closed, the roads are pretty empty out there, and yet lawmakers still made their way to the Capitol to peacefully certify Donald Trump's victory. Today is also the anniversary of January 6th, when four years ago, the same man who was just elected president sent a violent mob to the Capitol. So let's just acknowledge for a moment that it's all a lot. But with everyone back in Congress, we do have many amazing guests stopping by on set tonight to talk with us about all of it. Congressman Jamie Raskin will be here. He of course served on the House Select Committee that investigated January 6th. Aquilino Gannell is a former sergeant in the Capitol Police who protected the Capitol that day. And he just wrote an amazing op-ed. He's going to join me here in studio as well. Senator Andy Kim will be here. And of all the indelible images from that day, the pictures of Senator Kim cleaning up in the Capitol on January 7th, 2021. You can see them right on your screen. Certainly rank near the top for me and what I remember from that period. I'm also going to talk to Senator Raphael Warnock as we continue to remember the life and legacy of President Jimmy Carter. And they have a very special relationship we're going to talk about. But before all of that, I just want to start tonight on this day from four years ago. And this was the spot on the West front of the Capitol. You can see it right there. We're insurrectionists armed with guns, knives, bear spray, baseball bats, flag poles, and their bare hands rush the Capitol, desperate to get inside to violently disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. And just two weeks from today, in that very same spot, you can see on your screen, the man who sparked that riot, the man who sat in the comfort of his dining room watching TV while this was happening, ignoring the pleas of the people on his team, begging him to do something, will take the oath of office once again. It's mind bending. It's infuriating. It's completely perplexing. It's a lot of words. I can't say on TV right now, so I won't. And there are definitely big political questions about how we got here. I mean, there are big questions about whether the horror of that day, four years ago, still resonates with the country. Clearly didn't resonate enough to prevent the man who lit the match from being reelected president of the United States. That's clear. And we've definitely spent a lot of time talking about the politics of January 6, just like we talked about the politics of a lot of things on this show. And we'll continue to do that. But just for today, tonight, we're going to put that to the side because the politics simply do not matter as much as the history of the day, a day that we should never stop talking about, day that we should never stop reminding each other about. And I think we should remind each other that when we were watching it unfold in real time, four years ago, there was no doubt in anyone's mind about what we were witnessing. And that's not just me saying that. So many Republicans at the time publicly condemned Trump following the attack. Senator Mitch McConnell said he was, quote, practically and morally responsible for what had happened. Kevin McCarthy said it was un-American and then he could not be sadder and more disappointed with how our country looked. But ever since Donald Trump and his allies have tried to flip the memory of that day on its head. They've tried to erase it to change it. And you might not remember this, but Trump's first rally of the 2024 campaign was held in Waco, Texas, the site of a deadly standoff between federal agents and a religious cult in 1993. That was not a coincidental choice. And at the beginning of that very same rally, Trump put his hand over his heart as a rendition of the national anthem sung by a choir of imprisoned rioters blared over the speakers. And that kicked off an effort to completely rewrite history that lasted the entire campaign. I mean, Trump was referring to the insurrectionist as political prisoners, as hostages, as patriots of all things. He vowed to pardon them if and when he returned to office. And we were all left to wonder which people he meant exactly when he said that, which he said repeatedly. I mean, did he mean David Dempsey, who prosecutors called political violence personified, who attacked officers with flagpoles, crutches, pepper spray, broken furniture in his own hands and feet? Did he mean Daniel Ball, who hurled an explosive device into a tunnel packed with police officers trying to fend off the mob? Or did he mean Thomas Webster, a retired police officer himself who tackled a member of the Capitol police attacked him with a flagpole and tried to remove his helmet and gas mask? Or maybe he meant Daniel Rodriguez, who drove a stun gun into the neck of officer Michael Fanon. Donald Trump says those people are political prisoners and hostages and patriots. And when he returns to office in two weeks, he may well pardon each and every one of them. And that's just the tip of the whitewashing spear. Trump is also stacking his cabinet with election deniers, one of the architects of the plot to steal the election was just reelected Speaker of the House. Some lawmakers are bringing insurrectionists as their guests to the inauguration. And it's hard to imagine any of that would be happening without Trump, the leader of the Republican Party, the income of the president elect, embracing the role of the people who attacked the Capitol four years ago. Now with all of that, I just outlined, there is a natural inclination to feel pissed off and frustrated that the system failed in some way. And I've done my own reflection on that over the last few years. Believe me, I get it. I look back at the months after January 6 as President Biden was preparing to take office as we were all working to get Judge Merrick Garland confirmed as attorney general. Now, this is a man who has an unassailable resume and viewed the job as it should be viewed through the prism of the law and history. But I do wonder if at that moment in history, he was the right choice for the job. Yes, the Justice Department has charged about 1,500 people for their role that day. What are the guy who sparked it all? The guy walking around free and hosting events for election deniers at Mar-a-Lago in the weeks before his inauguration. Would a different attorney general have acted sooner? Would that have made any difference? We'll never really know. But I do wonder. I also look back at the strategy of not speaking out about Trump's impeachment from the White House podium, not speaking enough about the impact his rhetoric had on the rise in political violence, and wonder whether that was the right strategy for that moment in history. Yes, it was done with absolutely the right intention to attempt to bring the country together, to move forward and to try to work together even with people you disagree with to get things done. But I wonder if it also gave space for people to forget, to get numb to the impact of one man's power, and what could happen if he was given it again? So those are a couple of my own personal reflections. And look, we can't predict the future, just like none of us can change the past. But we do know that history has a tendency to repeat, which is why we have to keep the memory of the worst days alive. So why we need to reflect and to question the choices that we all made along the way. It's why we need to change our approach when warranted. It's why we need to keep defending the things that matter. Even when the politics might be murky, because it isn't always about politics. It's not. Sometimes it's just about what's right. I mean, today, the sitting vice president of the United States certified the election of the man who defeated her, the man she repeatedly called accurately a threat to democracy. The votes for president of the United States are as follows. Donald J. Trump of the State of Florida has received 312 votes. Kamala Harris of the state of California has received 226 votes. That must have felt, I mean, horrible. But the peaceful transfer of power, even after a hard fought campaign is part of what keeps a democracy functioning. It's also what's right. And while we should never forget what happened four years ago, and we're going to talk about it tonight a lot, we can all do our part to try and make sure it never happens again. Joining me now is Congressman Jamie Raskin. He led the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump served on the January 6th House Select Committee, and he has continued to keep the memory of January 6th alive, raising all of the important questions. It's great to see you. There's no one I wanted to talk to more than you today. You were just always so thoughtful and reflective in moments when people need to hear it. So I just outlined why I think it's important to remember the events of that day and what it's important to remember about it. But as you've reflected on it, what do you hope people remember? Well, I hope people remember the valor and the bravery of our officers, like Sergeant Connell, who I think is going to visit with you and Harry Dunn and hundreds of officers who put themselves between the Capitol, the Congress, the Vice President, and a rampaging mob of thousands who had been sent by Donald Trump to try to overturn a presidential election. And those people were really in the front lines. And as long as we remember them and their sacrifice and their injuries and the fact that their lives and their families have been turned upside down, we won't forget that this was a real event. They're not going to be able to shroud it in all kinds of right wing conspiracy theory and myths. But when I was sitting there today, Jen, I was thinking a lot about the electoral college. You know, this is an 18th century institution that's very creaky. It's given us five popular voters in our history twice in this century, George W. Bush and Donald Trump in that fundamentally altered the trajectory of our politics. It marginalizes the vast majority of the American people. It's very weird. We've gotten conditioned to it, but strange to have a presidential election that comes down immediately to six or seven states and everybody else is just watching what happens in Pennsylvania and Georgia and Arizona. You know, why don't we have an election for president like an election for representative or senator or mayor or governor, whoever gets the most votes wins. And you don't have to have a vice president who's in the race, whether that's Kamala Harris or think I remember Al Gore was in the same situation or Richard Nixon was in that situation counting the electoral college votes. And people don't even understand it anymore. Like our Republican colleagues today, they were cheering and stomping their feet and acting like it was the Republican National Convention. Our job there was just to be counting the votes, but people don't fundamentally understand it. And it's time for a refresh. And I think this is a good opportunity to do it. I mean, Donald Trump, he's very proud of the fact that he won the popular vote by 3 million votes, the way that Joe Biden was proud of the fact that he won by 7 million votes four years ago. Okay, why don't we all agree just to have a popular vote for election and move away from a dangerous and manipulable electoral college system? Hopefully, it's not always manipulative able to be manipulated, but I think a lot of people share your view on the electoral college versus the popular vote. Let me ask you about a clip. I just played the clip of the vice president. You referenced this, certifying the election, something others have done in history, usually just normal par for the course, but feels a little hard to watch a bit in this moment, given the role Trump played four years ago. What was going through your head when you were watching today? Well, it's a bitter pill to swallow. I mean, we were there on the floor, the Democrats acting as constitutional patriots. We are demonstrating our fidelity to the constitutional process as it's written. And we did the right thing in that sense, but it was a very bitter pill to swallow, given that four years ago, when they faced electoral defeat, 306 to 232 in the electoral college by more than 7 million votes in the popular vote. The Republicans under Donald Trump mobilized a violent insurrection to try to effectuate a backroom political coup against the vice president. They were trying to force Mike Pence to unilaterally declare that the electoral college votes coming from Michigan and Wisconsin and Georgia and Arizona would be voided out. And either Trump would just be declared the president or they would kick the whole thing into the House of Representatives for a so-called contingent election under the 12th amendment, where they knew we would be voting not on the basis of one member one vote, how we usually vote, but rather one state one vote. This is all part of the arcane, intricate architecture of the electoral college that most people haven't studied. And most people think that you go and you just vote and whoever gets the most votes wins. And that's not what's taking place under the electoral college. And so there are a lot of weaknesses and perils in this process. And I would think now that we've had two popular vote winners one from each party back to back, we could all agree now is the time to move forward and to pick the president the way we pick everybody else on the basis of whoever gets the most votes. Sounds very rational, doesn't it? A good discussion to be had. Let me ask you, you know, to the point of, we've been talking a little bit about rewriting history and the importance of fighting back against that. And today, the lawyer for Enrico Tario, who's serving 22 years, filed an official request for a pardon. Do you think Trump will pardon him? Look, the pardons have been used for three kinds of cases, as far as I can tell from reading the decisions on it. One is if a person is actually innocent and new information turns up. Two is if there was some kind of profound procedural miscarriage of justice. Three is if the person was guilty, but they're reformed and rehabilitated. Well, I don't hear anybody saying that the people we see on all these video clips were actually innocent and nobody has identified any procedural miscarriage of justice. So I think Donald Trump is basically saying when he wants to pardon all of these people that they are reformed and they're rehabilitated and they do not constitute a danger to the public safety today. Is that true or is that not true? Well, we should go through each one of these cases. That's why there's a pardon attorney at the Department of Justice. But if Donald Trump doesn't want to wait for the pardon attorney in the Department of Justice to actually go through the cases and make a recommendation, he is placing his personal seal of approval vouching for each of these people as he pardons them, which means he essentially becomes responsible for whatever happens with them. And have they been reformed? Have they been rehabilitated? Donald Trump should tell America why he thinks that someone who smashes a police officer over the head with a stick or a baseball batter confederate battle flag actually belongs on the streets. Are they no longer a danger to police officers? Are they no longer a danger to federal, state or local government or law enforcement officials? Who knows? But that's why this is a radically unprecedented and novel situation we're in. He's pardoning people that he's sent to the Capitol to go and fight and fight like hell or we wouldn't have a country anymore. And I understand politically the logic of why he would do it, but legally and morally, I don't understand the logic of it unless he's willing to vouch for each of these people. I suspect he's not going to be, but this is going to be an interesting thing to watch and pardon power is such an important topic. Okay, we have to sneak in a very quick break. Congressman Raskin is sticking around and we come back, former Capitol Police Sergeant Exelino Gannell is going to join us here at the table. The Congressman just mentioned him, we're back in just 60 seconds. As President-elect Donald Trump returns to the White House, what will the first 100 days of the presidency bring? Follow along as his agenda takes shape with the new MSNBC newsletter, Trump's first 100 days. Weekly updates send straight to your inbox and expert insight on the key issues and figures defining this second term. We're seeing a really radical effort to change the American system of government. Sign up for Trump's first 100 days at MSNBC.com/Trump100. Even though there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary, including hours and hours of videos and photographic coverage, there's a continuous shocking attempt to ignore or try to destroy the truth of what truly happened that day. But in January 6, for the first time, I was more afraid to work at the Capitol than my entire deployment to Iraq. What we were suggested that day was like something from a medieval battle. We fall hand to hand inch by inch to prevent an invasion of the Capitol via violent mob intent on supporting our democratic process. Those former Capitol Police Sergeant Exelino Gannell testified to the January 6 committee about six months after the attack on the Capitol. And now, four years after this insurrection, he remains committed to speaking out. In a new incredibly powerful piece for The New York Times, he writes, quote, "I remain haunted by that day. Now, Mr. Trump's promised actions could erase the justice we've risked everything for." Joining us now is former Capitol Police Sergeant Exelino Gannell and Congressman Jamie Raskin is still with us. I open the show by talking a bit about how today feels a bit like a moment for reflection and talking about what really happened that day and reminding people of the history. So as people are reflecting on that, as you're reflecting on it, what do you hope people remember and understand about that day? I just hope that the American people remember that what had transpired on January 6 was not a simple day. It was not a day of full of love because if that was a day full of love, then they almost loved me to death. I was attacking Maine inside the tunnel. I was attacking Maine outside the tunnel when we were trying to hold the police line. And for me, four years later, walking up here, it reminds me of January 6 and the aftermath when we had the fences up coming here, a fortified Capitol where nowhere in our history had that had happened before. And it was challenging that day and challenging today, and especially knowing that Donald Trump wants to pardon these violent criminals that are south of January 6. In your op-ed, we were just talking about this. You talk about the fear of some of these individuals being pardoned. We were just talking about this with the congressman. Trump could pardon some of the more violent insurrectionists who participated in the events that day. Is that something you fear personally for? I fear that it's going to normalize that type of behavior because what they're trying to say is it's okay to attack our political system. It's okay to try to overthrow our government after the will of the people has been manifested. And not so much about self-fear because what they're going to do to me or my family, we just did what we signed off for. I did my job. I fulfilled my oath. And if they have an issue with me doing my job, then they do not stand with the constitution. They do not stand for democracy like they prophesize. They do every single time they get it on TV. Political, I feel political violence has been normalized, not that it is in the process of being. I don't know if you both feel that way. Congressman, do you feel fearful? I don't know for yourself, for your colleagues with the potential for these insurrectionists to be pardoned and now free. Well, to this first point, Jen, political violence has been normalized as a way of doing mega business. I mean, we talk about January 6. We don't talk so much about June 1, 2020, but that was the day when Donald Trump and Attorney General William Barr assembled a paramilitary police makeshift unit under the direct control of the president, Attorney General, and then they unleashed violence on peaceful Black Lives Matter protesters in Lafayette Square. So Trump could make his trek over to the St. Stephen's Episcopal Church where he lifted somebody else's Bible over his head upside down and made whatever statements he wanted to make violating the separation of church and state. But they showed they were willing to mobilize government violence against peaceful protesters. On January 6, they showed they were willing to mobilize proud boys and oath keepers and right wing, white nationalist paramilitary violence against the government, whatever they needed to get in power and to assault their opponents. That is a rule or ruin philosophy. Either we're going to rule everybody and everything, we're going to ruin and tear down the possibility of government taking place for others. So that is a dangerous philosophy. And we have to demand that the Republicans renounce that philosophy. They have got to embrace constitutional government, which means sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But it can't be heads we win. And when we win an election, you respect that. But tales you lose or tales we lose, that is if they lose an election, then they're going to try to tear down the whole system of government. And that's where we are now. And that was explaining a lot of the frustration of Democrats today. Would they be actually accepting a peaceful transfer of power had they lost? No, I think that's a very open scary question. Let me ask you one of the things that is a, I would say a positive about an anniversary like today, of which there are not many, is that we can highlight the bravery of people like yourself and others who were in the capital police and some who are still today. There is part of the legislation that was passed is both money for families who lost loved ones and also for mental health services. Are you and others getting the support and funding that you need? And I think you deserve some of the some of the programs that we have received, but one of the legislation that was passed in the aftermath of January 6 was the Department of Justice. They have a program called Public Safety Officer Benefit Program. That to my knowledge, only the officers who die by suicide family have been awarded that benefit. However, that law was updated to include physical and mental health injury. To this day, the Department of Justice has not approved any single living officers claim, which is I think is ridiculous because many of the officers who are working at the capital today are still traumatized. Many of the same ones that were attacked on January 6 are going to be protecting Donald Trump in a couple of weeks. The irony of that that he had not even acknowledged or apologized to that is says a lot. But the benefit itself, no single officer living officer had been awarded that and that person running the program is a political appointee left over, which I think obviously he doesn't believe in January 6 that nothing wrong happened on January 6. And to me, it's an outrage that had not happened. That's outrageous. I think everybody should dig into that more. We will certainly do our best to do that. Thank you both so much. Thank you for being here. Thank you for everything you did on January 6. And before then as well, thank you as always for shedding light and helping us understand moments in history, Congressman. Thank you for having me. Coming up, you might remember this image from four years ago. I certainly do. It shows then Congressman Andy Kim cleaning up the capital one day after the insurrection and it certainly stuck with me. Andy Kim is now a United States Senator. He's standing by here in the studio and he joins the SNES. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad-free, plus ad-free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra, Bagman, and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad-free and with bonus content, including "Why Is This Happening?" Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Lots of people first learned the name Andy Kim on January 7, 2021 when an image of the Congressman kneeling in the capital rotunda, you can see it right there on your screen picking up debris after the January 6 attack went viral. Now, to so many of us, that image just felt kind of extraordinary. It was a moment of quiet dignity after one of the darkest days in the history of our country. But for Andy Kim, it just felt like the right thing to do. I didn't want the sunrise over the next morning on a broken Congress and a capital that was left in that type of condition. After I finished with the work on, I went to some of the other rooms, walked all over the capital and tried to do as much as I could to get that building into the place that it deserves to be. Now, Andy Kim has since become a U.S. Senator from New Jersey and he joins me. Now, it's great to see you. I can call you Senator now. The last time I saw you, I had to call you Senator elect, I guess. I'll take the shorter title. Shorter title. I mean, I love those photos of you cleaning up. I know you walked around the capital this morning. You posted some photos from that. How have you been reflecting on the anniversary four years later? Yeah, you know, it was a profound feeling going around the capital today and just trying to reflect on what happened four years ago. If you don't mind, I'll tell you, just one thing that was particularly powerful was just walking around and I came across a huddle of capital police officers to do this morning, this morning. And they were each reflecting and telling their own story about where they were, you know, and one talking about how they were outside fighting the mob there. Others were inside. And, you know, just it's one of those things where like, like surely we as a country, regardless of your political affiliation, can we not at least agree that we should not be defiling and disgracing such a beautiful sacred building, you know, just this understanding that like I got, I saw four years ago with my own eyes, Americans fighting other Americans inside the United States capital, like I will never unsee that. And it just, you know, it's just something where like surely despite our political differences, we can agree upon that in the same way that we hold our hand over our heart when we do the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem, like it should just be a part of what it means to be an American. One of the other images that was striking today, and I've talked about a little bit on the show already, was the vice president certifying the outcome of her own defeat essentially, which is something that has happened in history in the past. Al Gore did that, Nixon did that. But what was that like to watch? Yeah, you know, I was saying this in earlier where I say in some ways today really show that January 6 should be an unremarkable day to Americans. You know, it was just a pro form. It took 30 minutes for us to go through this business today. And I hope that Americans can see that that just should be how it is forever, as long as our democracy is here, that January 6 should just be that type of process. But as you point out, you know, there was something different about this as well. And that was seeing vice president Kamala Harris overseeing this. And I think what I took away from this is this recognition that it is representative of the peaceful transfer of power, which we failed as a nation to accomplish four years ago. And I say that as someone who's worked in diplomacy and national security, I've been in failed countries around the world where they don't have that capacity. So yes, like I want January 6 to be unremarkable. But in some ways, it's because we take our democracy for granted. We think that the peaceful transfer power is unremarkable because we just assume that we can do it. But after four years ago, something was different this time around for me to be in the chamber, to see the vice president take on this role with such dignity and recognize that we all work jobs whose job descriptions are in the Constitution of the United States. And that should be a deeply humbling experience. No doubt about it. So there have now been committee assignments in the Senate. You're on a lot of committees. People who will look up your website was you're on a lot of committees. One of them is Homeland Security, which isn't surprising. You're a national security nerd wonk. I say that in the most complicated ways, you're going to be serving on that committee at a time that's a little scary in this country. We just had the attack in New Orleans. Homegrown extremism seems to be a part of the motivation of the attacker. You come from a background of national security, of understanding these issues. What do you see your role as on the committee? And what questions do you want to ask when you start to have committee meetings and start to take on a role there? Well, I'll be honest with you. I never thought that I'd be in politics, get involved in government, but I was a sophomore in college when September 11th happened. So my entire path that led me to this moment came out of a terrorist attack, came out of a desire to be able to keep my country safe. And a lot of that I did abroad in Afghanistan and elsewhere. But I take this very seriously. And what I hope I can do, what I'd like to try to do is restore the sense that when it comes to securing our country, you know, having worked, both of us in the situation room, I often say, you know, last place of partisan politics belongs is in this situation room. We need to get back to the place where national security is not about partisanship that we recognize, yes, I want to keep our country safe. I got a seven year old and nine year old, two little boys. And I'm worried about what kind of America, what kind of world they're growing up. And it's very turbulent, very scary. You know, we just had a young man from New Jersey killed in, in New Orleans, Billy DeMayo. And just I feel for his family and just, you know, just that fear like, why would you have to fear about your kid's life when they're celebrating New Year's? You know, and so yes, I hope that I can play a role in trying to restore that sense that this is something that we should be able to come together on in that kind of capacity. But what we've seen on fortunes of degradation of the weaponization of politicization of our national security. And I think that if that continues, we're in a very dangerous trajectory as a nation. We'll see if governor Kristina gets confirmed how that all goes. Well, we'll talk about that more the next time you come back. Senator Andy Kim, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it so much. Coming up, Kamal Harris, isn't the first sitting vice president as we've been talking about to certify their own defeat. But as Senator Kim just said, this one does feel different. More on that when we come back. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad-free. Plus, ad-free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra, Bagman, and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad-free and with bonus content. Including why is this happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. So we've been talking about this a little bit during the show. But today marked just the fourth time in American history that a sitting vice president has certified their own defeat. It's kind of an ironic twist of fate that after suffering, the gut punch of losing the White House, each of them have had to stand before the Congress and acknowledge a painful truth that they lost. State by state, they are asked to relive and sign off on the exact details of their defeat. But despite whatever personal ambitions they had, four times now, those vice presidents all managed to stand behind the principles of American democracy and abide by the Constitution. After losing by a margin of only 537 votes in a single state under highly contested circumstances, Al Gore had to preside over the joint session that affirmed George W. Bush's victory in 2000. And in doing so, he repeatedly had to gavel down objections from members of his own party who tried in vain to stop him. Richard Nixon was never known for extending much benefit of the doubt to his political adversaries. We all know that. But after losing a hard fought race to John F. Kennedy in 1960, he too was able to swallow his pride and certify the results with the kind of grace and humility that's far too rare in American politics today. Even when the country was literally on the brink of civil war in 1861, their certifications still went off without a hitch. Vice President John Breckenridge would go on to join the Confederacy just months after losing the presidency. And yet even he still fulfilled his constitutional duty, counting the votes and declaring that his opponent, Abraham Lincoln, had been elected. Each of them did the honorable thing, undoubtedly under difficult and painful circumstances. But they put the good of the country above their personal feelings. And that's something that Donald Trump could not do four years ago today. Coming up, visitors are lining up to pay their final respects as President Jimmy Carter lies and repose inside his presidential library ahead of his state funeral in Washington. Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock is standing by to share his reflections on President Carter's legacy. And he joins us next. I promised you four years ago that I would never lie to you. So I can't stand here tonight and say it doesn't hurt. There's an old Yiddish proverb that I've often thought of in the days and months that I've held this office. It says simply, God gives burdens, also shoulders. And all the days and months when I have served you and served this country, you've readily given me your shoulders, your faith and your prayers. No man could ask any more of his friends. That was a young President Jimmy Carter showing what it means to be gracious and defeat as he delivered his concession speech in 1980. And on this particular day, that feels especially relevant. In fact, so much of his legacy is a reminder of what grace and dignity in our politics can and should look like. That sentiment is no doubt on the minds of the tens of thousands of people who've already streamed in to pay their respects as he lies and repose at the Carter Center in Georgia. Now, tomorrow, his casket will be flown to Washington where you will lie in state at the U.S. Capitol before the National Funeral Service on Thursday. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock of Georgia, who shared a close personal relationship with former President Carter. It's great to see you. And I was reflecting today, just on my visit, I came down to Georgia to spend the day with you about a year ago. We went to a forum, we met with religious leaders, we were like, I'm a terrible biker. That aside, one of the things that I learned about you that I didn't know well was your close relationship with with the former President and how much he impacted you. So a lot of us, we've all been thinking about him. He's he's about to be in Washington, his body will be in Washington tomorrow. What do you hope people remember about his legacy? Thank you so much. Great to be here. What an extraordinary human being. I mean, he occupied the Oval Office, but let's just stop there. Jimmy Carter was was an extraordinary human being and a humanitarian. He was a patriot in the best sense of the word. And someone who demonstrates, I think, as good as anyone I can think of in modern times, what it means to make your faith come alive in public service. And he did that while in office. And he did it when he left office because he understood that leadership is not about an office. It's about an orientation. And he never lost the depth of that commitment. And he kept finding ways to get in what another great Georgia Congressman John Lewis called good trouble all over the world. Making faith come alive in your service is something I think not everybody's comfortable with. And I don't know if you struggled with that or had to figure out how to do that as you ran for office. Did he give you any advice on and he was a deeply religious man or deeply religious man as as you were thinking about how to navigate that yourself. Well, I think it's an important question, particularly in this moment where, you know, even as a Christian pastor, sadly, I have to admit that too often the voice of faith in America the day, the loudest voices are mean spirited voices, divisive voices. Often harboring, it seems to me, a politics of resentment against the very people for whom Jesus said, I came to preach good news. The poor, Jesus sent it to poor. So did Jimmy Carter, the world's most famous Sunday school teacher because he actually read the scripture. He was a Matthew 25 Christian as am I. And he demonstrates that you, you know, you can be clear about your own particular faith identity without being oppressive towards folks who have other faith traditions or who come from no particular faith tradition at all. That is the covenant we have with one another as an American people. And Jimmy Carter embodied it so very well. And he was a great missionary, if you will, for the best of the American spirit as he fought for democracies all across the world, worked to eradicate diseases almost single handedly, got rid of the guinea worm and really changed the lives of people all over the world. And so we're saying farewell, but in a real sense he is for the ages and his legacy shall never die. One of the pictures we showed is of the Carter sitting in a pew while you are preaching. You don't strike me as a guy who gets nervous much. But did you get nervous from the president, the former president and his wife were sitting in the pew? Well, I'd gotten to know him a little bit prior to that. And we talked a little bit before the service in some ways it was comforting to have a man there who so clearly embodied the work. You know, in some ways, having Jimmy Carter and the pew made the sermon easier because people would rather see a sermon and hear one. And I don't remember what I talked about that morning, but he demonstrated the truth of our gospel centering love, justice and peace. I played right before we started talking the concession speech of a much younger Jimmy Carter to be fair. We played earlier the vice sitting vice president confirming certifying the outcome of the election. There's a lot of grace that's shown in those moments. It's also hard for people to watch as you're talking who voted a different way, I should say, as you're talking to members of your congregation about this moment we're in, what we're about to face, what do you tell them about how to stand up for their own moral beliefs, but still be fine grace in this moment? Well, we have to. I mean, that's the covenant we have with one another is an American people. And look, four years ago, I was sitting at home in Atlanta. I had just won my election and that celebration was short-lived because we saw a violent assault on the Capitol unlike anything we've seen since the war of 1812 that assault on our democracy then metastasized, it seems to me, in voter suppression bills all across our country. And so as I think about Jimmy Carter fighting within the democratic traditions of our own country, but then trying to help other struggling democracies all over the world because he understood and believed as I do that in a real sense democracy is the political enactment of a spiritual idea. It is this notion that each of us has within ourselves a spark of the divine. And so we ought to have a voice in the direction of the country and our destiny within it. And he took that message all over the world trying to help folks who were trying to stand up democracies because he believed in human dignity. And so it's important that in this moment on this dreadful anniversary that in every other case, except four years ago, we witnessed in many ways the most uneventful, not just non-violence, but I said that ceremony today. It was boring today as an ought to be. And God help us to get back to that spirit. Senator Warnock, I feel like you embody so much of the embracing your faith, helping people understand that they can do that and still have political values. It's always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for speaking us with us about President Jimmy Carter and your special relationship. We're going to be right back. I do believe very strongly that America's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to fight for every single person, their willingness to fight for and respect the importance of our democracy. Otherwise, it is very fragile and it will not be able to withstand moments of crisis. And today, America's democracy stood. America's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to fight for it. Amen to that. That's it for me tonight. You can catch the show every Sunday at 12 p.m. and Monday at 8 p.m. on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. For now, goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad-free. Plus ad-free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra, Hagman, and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad-free and with bonus content, including "Why Is This Happening?" Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
Jen Psaki reflects on the four-year anniversary of the January 6 insurrection, including the importance of peaceful transfers of power following Kamala Harris certifying her loss to Donald Trump. Jen is joined by Representative Jamie Raskin to discuss the weaknesses of the electoral college system and what he makes of Trump's plans to pardon Jan. 6 rioters. Next, former U.S. Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell joins Jen to discuss how he is dealing with the trauma he experienced protecting the Capitol that day. Then, Senator Andy Kim joins Jen for a wide-ranging interview, discussing his takeaways from Jan. 6 and his priorities heading into a new Congress. Later, Jen shares some thoughts on VP Harris joining the short list of sitting vice presidents who have humbly certified their own defeat- a stark difference from how Trump handled his loss four years ago. Finally, Senator Raphael Warnock joins the show to reflect on President Jimmy Carter's powerful legacy and what will stick with him most from his close relationship with the former president.
